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BeLeafer
10-07-2014, 08:50 PM
I think many would agree that this team is at least moderately improved over last season. In theory, they should be a better team than the 2012-13 team. The blueline is definitely better, there's a small handful of very talented young players who are on the cusp (Kadri, JVR, Gardiner, Rielly), the goaltending is arguably better, and there's probably better depth on the forward lines.

I skipped last year, not because I'd like to erase that memory (I would!), but because Carlyle coached the 2012-13 team to a pretty good record. Of course, it was a short season and he was also instrumental in the 4 minute collapse in Boston. What ties last season's collapse and that 4 minute collapse together is his excessive reliance on a few players. Of course, it's important to note that throughout all of it, the Leafs' possession game and defensive system was really weak.

Can Carlyle learn from his mistakes? He's easily my biggest worry about this team. I think they're pretty good otherwise.

Can a coach change?

Leafyblue
10-07-2014, 08:58 PM
Has he coached any differently his entire career? If not,I'd say change will be very difficult for him. I'd also be a bit worried that even if he does change, he will fall into the old habits again when things don't go well.

PKForce81
10-07-2014, 09:09 PM
One thing i hated about Carlye's system last year was how we collapsed in front of our net so often. We looked very good in that last preseason game and Carlyle said he wants forwards to rush the point and take away the shot..I'm very optimistic if they keep doing it like that. Couldn't figure out what the point was of collapsing when no forward(well rarely) was willing to block shots. Everything else i agreed with him(in terms of needing more possession type players, playing tough as a team, better compete level, etc).

Wayward DP
10-07-2014, 09:20 PM
See: Hitchcock, Ken.

I'm withholding judgment until we've seen this version of the team play together for awhile.

hockeylover
10-07-2014, 09:25 PM
I think many would agree that this team is at least moderately improved over last season. In theory, they should be a better team than the 2012-13 team. The blueline is definitely better, there's a small handful of very talented young players who are on the cusp (Kadri, JVR, Gardiner, Rielly), the goaltending is arguably better, and there's probably better depth on the forward lines.

I skipped last year, not because I'd like to erase that memory (I would!), but because Carlyle coached the 2012-13 team to a pretty good record. Of course, it was a short season and he was also instrumental in the 4 minute collapse in Boston. What ties last season's collapse and that 4 minute collapse together is his excessive reliance on a few players. Of course, it's important to note that throughout all of it, the Leafs' possession game and defensive system was really weak.

Can Carlyle learn from his mistakes? He's easily my biggest worry about this team. I think they're pretty good otherwise.

Can a coach change?

100% with you on this.

I think a coach is capable of change but I wonder if Carlyle is. Mostly because he didn't really seem to have any answers last season or be able to make any adjustments as the season went on.

zeke
10-07-2014, 09:34 PM
the good coaches can. and the question with randy might be more whether he's willing to change than if he can change.

i saw some good signs in the neutral zone play in the preseason and in the roster selections, so i have a bit of hope at least.

BeLeafer
10-07-2014, 09:41 PM
The most encouraging thing for me was the final two games of the preseason.

It certainly looked like they were playing a different system than what we've seen previously with Carlyle. I think this is where Horachuk comes in, if I'm not mistaken. They were also playing the right complement of players (i.e., using the four lines). It's the latter part that worries me the most. The new assistants should be able to fix the system issues, but the ice time decisions ultimately reside with Carlyle. Taking the goons and McSelke away from him will at least help to mitigate some of his worst habits.

Wayward DP
10-07-2014, 09:48 PM
The most encouraging thing for me was the final two games of the preseason.

It certainly looked like they were playing a different system than what we've seen previously with Carlyle. I think this is where Horachuk comes in, if I'm not mistaken. They were also playing the right complement of players (i.e., using the four lines). It's the latter part that worries me the most. The new assistants should be able to fix the system issues, but the ice time decisions ultimately reside with Carlyle. Taking the goons and McSelke away from him will at least help to mitigate some of his worst habits.

Yeah, I'll be really pissed if our fourth line continues to get <6 minutes/night. We finally have a fourth line that can actually play hockey, would be a damn shame not to use it. And having the luxury of rolling four lines gives you a lot more flexibility throughout your lineup, easier to move players up/down, mix and match lines, etc. If Carlyle makes no use of our added depth...

BeLeafer
10-07-2014, 09:58 PM
I suspect he'll be fired pretty quickly if he does that. Or maybe I should say I hope that's the case.

Artnes
10-07-2014, 09:58 PM
If he wants to keep his job (and potential career) he will change.

Wayward DP
10-07-2014, 10:03 PM
Randy's gotta know he's on a short leash to start the season you would think. A shit start pretty much guarantees he's gone if you ask me.

Pronger84
10-08-2014, 03:33 AM
I'm cautiously optimistic here, I mean I like the changes I have seen in the preason which is reverting fromcollapsing back in front to the players using their speed to aggressively charging at the oppositon through the neutral zone pressuring the opponent into making mistakes now is this really Carlye adapting because he wants to or because management is forcing his hand?

The Leafs biggest strength is their speed so why did it take Carlyle 3 years to realize this? You don't have to be this big crashing thug like team to play defense actually to me its a huge misconception, defense is all about using your speed to take the puck away from the oppoent then quickly transfer it up ice and hem the other team in their own end for long periods. To me the Leafs actually have what it takes to be a solid defensive hockey club its' just that the players have been completley mismanaged by the coach and told to do the wrong thing out there on the ice the majority of the time.

If the Leafs can somehow keep applying the system they have been using in the preseason, manage to cut down the shots to even about 30 a game against and they get increased offensive scoring from the 2nd and 3rd lines there's no reason to think this team can't fight it out for a home ice spot in the playoffs. However if Carlyle goes back to his stubborn ways, and if we don't get that secondary offense we so badly need then I can easily see this team falling out of the race and staying out of it come April.

Pronger84
10-08-2014, 03:34 AM
Randy's gotta know he's on a short leash to start the season you would think. A shit start pretty much guarantees he's gone if you ask me.

For a change we agree on something here! I think if the Leafs go something like 9-16 to stat the season I think Carlyle is done and they appoint Spott as interim coach until they can find a suitable replacement. Carlyle to me is one losing streak away from being out of a job, JMO of course.

worm
10-08-2014, 10:45 AM
Randy's gotta know he's on a short leash to start the season you would think. A shit start pretty much guarantees he's gone if you ask me.

Which might be a bad thing....he will fall on old habits to try and save his job instead of working through the pains of the players learning a new system.

number17
10-08-2014, 10:47 AM
I think some coaches can change, but I won't hold my breath on that for Carlyle. I just can't be optimistic about his coaching since he's been coaching the same style for SO LONG, and it's not like he hasn't been through failures already ... he was fired from Anaheim and if he couldn't / didn't change through that, how can I believe he can / will change when he has a 2 yrs extension in his hands now?

All is not lost though, as I believe Horacek will have some impact on our defensive system. I think we've seen flashes of it through pre-season.

Nonis has also limited Carlyle's option with the roster. He traded away McClement and sent Orr and McLaren to the AHL, so Carlyle has no choice but to make changes to his minutes and how he utilize the 3rd and 4th lines.

At the end of the day though, how much can a GM and assistant coaches impact the head coach's coaching on ice, and in-game adjustment? Very little, but with our revamped roster that might already be enough for us to make the playoff.

I am not at all against a terrible start that pushes Nonis to fire Carlyle early in the season and bring in someone like Bylsma though.

BeLeafer
10-08-2014, 01:42 PM
I'm pretty pumped about this team. If Carlyle screws us for another season or they let him do it, I may have to start watching curling.

BeLeafer
10-08-2014, 10:14 PM
Tonight was not encouraging. Randy did precisely what has caused so much grief in the past -- leaning on the top line and Dion. To make matters worse, he did it when none of them were playing particularly well, while most other guys in the lineup were playing at least pretty well. Why the top line gets 6-7 minutes more than that Kadri line after they dominated in the first is beyond me.

blacksheep
10-09-2014, 02:01 AM
Tonight was not encouraging. Randy did precisely what has caused so much grief in the past -- leaning on the top line and Dion. To make matters worse, he did it when none of them were playing particularly well, while most other guys in the lineup were playing at least pretty well. Why the top line gets 6-7 minutes more than that Kadri line after they dominated in the first is beyond me.

Because Randy won't change.
A coach can change. Some other proverbial coach, maybe, but this one lacks the impetus to do so.

leafman101
10-09-2014, 07:43 AM
I don't mind leaning on Kessel and Phaneuf like that. Phaneuf only played 23 minutes, and the D usage was actually pretty balanced. Polak was around 17 and everyone else was around 19-20. Thats perfect.

And Kessel needs to play more than everyone else. It would be stupid to play him 16 minutes a game. He should be up around 20. But you do that by mixing him in with the other lines. Not by playing Bozak 20 minutes a game too. You double shift him for Kozun or Frattin here and there. Bozak just isn't a 20 minute a game player. Especially when he is losing draws and getting pushed around by midgets like Desharnais.

But Carlyle used four lines. He used all 3 D pairs. The usage wasn't very similar to last year.

The Leafs breakouts were much better. It wasn't all the forwards flying up the ice and the D hanging back and making stretch passes. There were typically all 5 guys in the frame, and they made quick passes, and really tried to hang onto the puck instead of just firing it up the boards.

Overall it was a typical sloppy first game of the season, but there were definitely reasons to be encouraged.

BeLeafer
10-09-2014, 07:52 AM
The usage wasn't very similar to last year.

Dion Phaneuf TOI

Last night: 23:31
2013-14 Avg.: 23:33

LeafGm
10-09-2014, 07:52 AM
Yeah, I liked Carlyle's ice-time distribution as well, for the most part last night. And while there were flashes of last year's Leafs at times, when they'd collapse towards the net and allow the Habs to move the puck around at will, for the most part I thought the game was pretty even, with the Leafs carrying the play for stretches as well.

A really unlucky bounce off Percy for the 4th Montreal goal though, along with a couple stinkers from Bernier, and we walk away with no points. C'est la vie. Move on to the next game.

leafman101
10-09-2014, 07:58 AM
Dion Phaneuf TOI

Last night: 23:31
2013-14 Avg.: 23:33

There is no problem with that. That is on the low end of what #1 dmen play.

It was the only using the first pair against the other teams top lines and Phaneuf's insane, league leading Corsi rel Qoc that was the problem. No problem with a dman playing 23 minutes a game though.

BeLeafer
10-09-2014, 07:59 AM
Yeah, I liked Carlyle's ice-time distribution as well, for the most part last night.

What bugs me the most about the way he distributed ice time is Kadri's time. Kadri was clearly on his game last night and Bozak was clearly not. However, Bozak got more than 7 minutes of ice time over Kadri. Does that make sense? He got burned for it as well, as Bozak was getting outworked all over the ice later in the game ... some of which led to goals against.

Kadri should have been leaned on there rather than Bozak. But Randy seem to have a thing with Kadri.

I did like the ice time he gave to Percy though -- really challenged the kid and he responded brilliantly.

BeLeafer
10-09-2014, 08:10 AM
There is no problem with that. That is on the low end of what #1 dmen play.
Yeah, but it's pretty similar to last year, wouldn't you say (23:31 vs. 23:33)?


It was the only using the first pair against the other teams top lines and Phaneuf's insane, league leading Corsi rel Qoc that was the problem. No problem with a dman playing 23 minutes a game though.
If the dman is not playing well there is. Dion wasn't on his game last night.

number17
10-09-2014, 09:08 AM
Dion was not on his game last night but it was an off-night for him (or so I hope).

My bigger problem with ice time distribution was with the forwards. The first line wasn't having a good night, that much was certain. I know with guys like Kessel and JVR they are game breakers and they can change everything with 1 shift, but when they were playing such an awful game, and Randy still gave them close to 23 min when all is said and done, it just isn't very smart. Especially with Kozun showing so much energy and 3rd line showing some life as well, why not use the 2nd line more and lower the minutes for the 1st line?!

leafman101
10-09-2014, 09:10 AM
Yeah, but it's pretty similar to last year, wouldn't you say (23:31 vs. 23:33)?

That part is similar.



If the dman is not playing well there is. Dion wasn't on his game last night.

In general I agree. But not with your best players like Phaneuf and Kessel. You have to play your best players. Over the course of the season they are going to provide more positives than negatives.

LeafGm
10-09-2014, 09:23 AM
What bugs me the most about the way he distributed ice time is Kadri's time. Kadri was clearly on his game last night and Bozak was clearly not. However, Bozak got more than 7 minutes of ice time over Kadri. Does that make sense? He got burned for it as well, as Bozak was getting outworked all over the ice later in the game ... some of which led to goals against.

Kadri should have been leaned on there rather than Bozak. But Randy seem to have a thing with Kadri.
As long as Tyler Bozak is centering our two best wingers, it makes sense that his line would get the most ice-time. However, I agree that Kadri's line was looking more dangerous last night, and probably deserved more than seven fewer minutes than the 1st line. But Randy's never been good at making adjustments on the fly, and that unfortunately was the case again last night, in spite of the better distribution of ice-time and better overall team play.


I did like the ice time he gave to Percy though -- really challenged the kid and he responded brilliantly.
Yeah, Percy did look really great last night. I felt awful for him that he got that unlucky bounce off his foot at the end. It's also a bummer that he'll be coming out of the lineup to make room for Cody Franson. I was so ready for us to be rid of Franson in the summer, and I still can't believe it didn't happen.


If the dman is not playing well there is. Dion wasn't on his game last night.
Yeah, I agree. In general, 22-23 minutes is right where you want Dion, but Dion may have been the worst D-man on the ice for us last night. Montreal forwards were blowing by him in our zone with alarming ease and regularity. Which I guess gets us back to Randy being shit at making any adjustments on the fly.

Pronger84
10-09-2014, 11:03 AM
Dion was not on his game last night but it was an off-night for him (or so I hope).

My bigger problem with ice time distribution was with the forwards. The first line wasn't having a good night, that much was certain. I know with guys like Kessel and JVR they are game breakers and they can change everything with 1 shift, but when they were playing such an awful game, and Randy still gave them close to 23 min when all is said and done, it just isn't very smart. Especially with Kozun showing so much energy and 3rd line showing some life as well, why not use the 2nd line more and lower the minutes for the 1st line?!

This goes beyond a one off for dion, he has been in a tailspin for the past 25 games or so dating well back into last season, when are the fanboys of Phaneuf going to stop making excuses for the guy. He's a passable top pairing guy but he is also inconsistent and has shown he struggles badly with lateral speed and gets burned on a nightly basis, case in point getting walked around on the 1st goal last night.

Kessel wasn't a dynamic force out there offensively and he needs to get it going, he's our highest paid player he needs to start playing like one, that being said I noticed a much more well rounded game from Kessel which I like to see. He back checked hard, he stripped the habs players of the puck a few times and he even three a hit in his own end.

worm
10-09-2014, 11:49 AM
As everybody knows I love double dion.

But he was fine last night. A bit sloppy on one play but he still forced a shot from basically the corner.

BeLeafer
10-09-2014, 12:27 PM
Yeah, Percy did look really great last night. I felt awful for him that he got that unlucky bounce off his foot at the end. It's also a bummer that he'll be coming out of the lineup to make room for Cody Franson. I was so ready for us to be rid of Franson in the summer, and I still can't believe it didn't happen.

I'm guessing part of Percy's ice time last night was directed from above. They want to test him to see if they have a guy who can replace Franson's minutes (or at least some of his minutes). Came through in flying colours last night ... if he plays like that consistently it's an upgrade and a pretty big one. The offensive slack will be easily taken up by any of Jake, Rielly and/or Percy on the pp.

blacksheep
10-12-2014, 12:16 AM
Well??
Can he??

MindzEye
10-12-2014, 12:56 AM
No

Anyone who thought differently was wrong from the onset.

Pronger84
10-12-2014, 08:19 AM
No

Anyone who thought differently was wrong from the onset.

I have to concur, this was the same coach who was baffled as to how things went wrong last season. One cannot change unless they understand what it is exactly they need to change.

blacksheep
10-17-2014, 10:13 PM
Yes, a coach can change. All you have to do is fire his assistants...
What a joke this management is.

hockeylover
10-17-2014, 10:14 PM
No

Anyone who thought differently was wrong from the onset.

+1

BeLeafer
10-17-2014, 10:18 PM
Sure looking like this was the bad idea most thought it was. This is on Shanahan, if you ask me. He better correct it or maybe he's here as an NHL mole to ensure we keep sucking shit for another decade ... doesn't hurt league revenues.

Montana
10-17-2014, 10:28 PM
Shanny is likely to get precisely what he expected out of Carlyle.......a mulligan for his first season in charge, so that he can assess what he has in house, decide what he needs to prioritize in terms of acquisitions/trades/signings, and then target the coach he really wants in the offseason after shit-canning Carlyle.

Next year the new regime of Dubas & Babcock will take over.

blacksheep
10-17-2014, 10:32 PM
Shanny is likely to get precisely what he expected out of Carlyle.......a mulligan for his first season in charge, so that he can assess what he has in house, decide what he needs to prioritize in terms of acquisitions/trades/signings, and then target the coach he really wants in the offseason after shit-canning Carlyle.

Next year the new regime of Dubas & Babcock will take over.
How many more fans will give up in the meantime?

hockeylover
10-17-2014, 10:32 PM
Shanny is likely to get precisely what he expected out of Carlyle.......a mulligan for his first season in charge, so that he can assess what he has in house, decide what he needs to prioritize in terms of acquisitions/trades/signings, and then target the coach he really wants in the offseason after shit-canning Carlyle.

Next year the new regime of Dubas & Babcock will take over.

Yeah, that makes sense. Buys him a free pass this year with a coach he's not tied to. It's too bad though because the East seems pretty wide open to me.

LeafOfFaith
10-17-2014, 10:34 PM
****, if we really were getting Babcock, I'd be all for tanking the shit out of this year and going for the best draft pick we could get.

Dump all the useful guys on one year deals, bring up kids like Broll and Granberg, and draft 5th overall.

blacksheep
10-18-2014, 01:43 AM
Don't worry, I'm sure Carlyle will simply blame the usual suspects. Gardiner will probably be benched again tomorrow, and Reimer won't get any more starts until Bernier is injured.
Franson will be left alone, and no lines will change. No timeouts will ever be called, and complete pylons will still get their usual icetime.

Leafin'
10-18-2014, 04:43 AM
****, if we really were getting Babcock, I'd be all for tanking the shit out of this year and going for the best draft pick we could get.

Dump all the useful guys on one year deals, bring up kids like Broll and Granberg, and draft 5th overall.

Tanking the year is garbage. The core of this team probably can't survive another tank. This team isn't bad enough unless our goaltending shits the bed. Though kinda hard to blame the goalies when we give up 35+ shots a night.

One of those picks would be nice to add. If by some luck we ended up with Eichel or McDavid, wow. Good center depth in this draft.

JackBurton
10-18-2014, 11:40 AM
This team is not bad enough to get a top pick unless they get huge luck in moving up a few spots.

BeLeafer
10-18-2014, 04:56 PM
Shanny is likely to get precisely what he expected out of Carlyle.......a mulligan for his first season in charge, so that he can assess what he has in house, decide what he needs to prioritize in terms of acquisitions/trades/signings, and then target the coach he really wants in the offseason after shit-canning Carlyle.

Next year the new regime of Dubas & Babcock will take over.

Maybe Babock told them he has not interest in coaching the Leafs and that's why they extended Carlyle? Of course, they didn't just extend Carlyle, they also brought in two hand-picked assistant coaches to flank him. Are they just going to kick them to the curb?

The likelihood of them making a 29 year old the GM of the Leafs is almost nil.

MindzEye
10-18-2014, 06:06 PM
Nonis will be kept as a figurehead until Shanny is comfortable that Dubas is ready for the big job. Nonis (or as I will now refer to him: Gino *Gm In Name Only*) has no real decision making power anymore anyway, and they're going to be paying him regardless...so may as well keep him. He's not a bad lieutenant, he just shouldn't be left to make any decisions by himself.

As for the 2 assistants...I imagine that would be left up to Babcock. If bringing in hand selected guys was part of the deal, then yeah, both assistants would get punted. It's not uncommon though for a head coach to inherit assistant coaches. In fact...it's uncommon for a head coach to immediately dismantle his assistant group.

zeke
10-18-2014, 06:14 PM
i always thought that the promtion of the marlies coaches to the leafs' staff was just so they could fire all the old guard at the same time. they didn't hire them for the marlies in the first place, and spott in particular never had a great rep with the advanced stats guys while in junior.

BeLeafer
10-18-2014, 06:35 PM
Horachek was not part of the Marlies staff. So, no, he's not part of an old guard. He's got a pretty good pedigree and was brought in from outside the organization. It is interesting that he does have experience as an interim, midseason coaching replacement.

In terms of Dubas, I have no doubt they are grooming him. The likelihood that he'll be promoted to the GM next year though is, to my mind, very remote.

And then there's this media-created frenzy over Babcock. The Leafs have to be one of the most unattractive destinations in the universe for a coach with an excellent reputation. Why anyone would want to deal with that media horde is beyond me.

zeke
10-18-2014, 06:36 PM
I doubt they hesitate.

Bowman's kid became GM when he was what? 35?

Theo Epstein took over the red sox when he was 28?

BeLeafer
10-18-2014, 06:47 PM
There's quite a distance between 28 and 35 years of age. Bowman spent 8 years as an assistant in Chicago before getting the nod.

Montana
10-18-2014, 07:00 PM
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Dubas already holds significantly more sway with Shannahan than Nonnis does......the title itself is ultimately irrelevant anyway (as is the age of the person who holds it), what's actually important is the level of decision making influence and power the person holds.

hockeylover
10-18-2014, 07:08 PM
The likelihood of them making a 29 year old the GM of the Leafs is almost nil.

Though to be fair, you could probably say the same thing about the likelihood of an NHL team making a 28 year old an assistant GM. Or the likelihood of an OHL team making a 25 year old their GM (youngest ever). Or the likelihood of the NHLPA certifying a 20 year old player agent (also youngest ever).

Montana
10-18-2014, 07:14 PM
They made a 30 year old the GM of the Leafs, over 25 years ago.





*insert "Yeah, and how did that turn out?!" here.

zeke
10-18-2014, 07:19 PM
and I'm sure Shanny thinks highly of his own veteran experience, mentorship, and connections.

LeafGm
10-19-2014, 08:41 AM
I'm not to sure Dubas is the guy Shanny has in mind to take over when he drops Nonis as a figurehead. As the rumours go, one of the stumbling blocks keeping the Wings from re-signing Babcock is that Babcock wants more power. So, maybe Shanahan offers Babcock the dual role of coach/GM, with Dubas and maybe one more assistant there to day-to-day grunt work of being a GM.

Habsy
10-19-2014, 09:08 AM
I think Shanahan's master plan all along involved McDavid or Eichel. Keeping Carlyle is a major cog in that plan.

lecoqsportif
10-19-2014, 09:59 AM
A lot of work to do then. Because Buffalo and Edmonton are perfectly built and seemingly dedicated to securing McDavid or Eichel.

MindzEye
10-19-2014, 10:03 AM
A lot of work to do then. Because Buffalo and Edmonton are perfectly built and seemingly dedicated to securing McDavid or Eichel.

Yep. We're not remotely bad enough to "achieve" that.

blacksheep
10-27-2014, 11:25 AM
Anybody still think he can?

Leafin'
10-27-2014, 03:31 PM
Any chance they make Mark Hunter the GM? I assume he took the position here in Toronto is to gain that big league experience.

blacksheep
11-18-2014, 08:15 PM
Anybody still think he can?

??

MapleLeafBlueJayBoy
11-18-2014, 08:55 PM
Never did

zeke
11-19-2014, 10:34 AM
-----Randy Hired-----
ANA '06: +1.9 shot differential (8th)
ANA '07: +4.1 shot differential (3rd)
ANA '08: 50.2cf% (15th)
ANA '09: 50.5cf% (12th)
ANA '10: 47.6cf% (23rd)
ANA '11: 44.0cf% (29th)
ANA '12: 48.2cf% (22nd)
-----Randy Fired-----
ANA '13: 47.1cf% (24th)
ANA '14: 49.6cf% (17th)
ANA '15: 53.5cf% (6th)

Volcanologist
11-19-2014, 10:42 AM
Pretty clear the question is academic at this point with Randy. It's not working and the team isn't playing well enough for him to last much longer.

zeke
11-19-2014, 10:49 AM
Darren Dreger @DarrenDreger
Carlyle isn't facing an imminent firing. No big trade is in the works. Leafs players are on the hook and need to respond vs T-Bay. However..

hockeylover
11-19-2014, 10:50 AM
Whoever guessed "minor changes" last night... bing bing bing! Winner.

LeafGm
11-19-2014, 11:00 AM
Darren Dreger @DarrenDreger
Carlyle isn't facing an imminent firing. No big trade is in the works. Leafs players are on the hook and need to respond vs T-Bay. However..
Spectacular.

Either Shanahan is a JFJ-esque coward who's like a deer in the headlights right now, or for some reason they're writing this season off on purpose.

BG
11-19-2014, 11:16 AM
This sucks, just fire the guy already.

zeke
11-19-2014, 11:16 AM
remember this article?

http://www.thescore.com/nhl/news/581836

Leafin'
11-19-2014, 01:16 PM
Can we stop blaming Carlyle for everything? I understand he has his own share of blame, but the effort level is awful. No F*cks given at all by this team.

LeafGm
11-19-2014, 01:20 PM
Can we stop blaming Carlyle for everything? I understand he has his own share of blame, but the effort level is awful. No F*cks given at all by this team.
This reminds me of the people who would say "can we stop blaming the goalies for everything" during our run with Raycroft, Toskala and Gustavsson in net.

Nobody's saying Carlyle is the only problem with the team. But he is a big problem, and he's the problem that's the easiest to correct at the moment.

CRL
11-19-2014, 01:22 PM
Can we stop blaming Carlyle for everything? I understand he has his own share of blame, but the effort level is awful. No F*cks given at all by this team.

have you watched HBO 24/7 last year? for me it was more than enough to understand that Randy might not even qualify for Babcock's assistant

zeke
11-19-2014, 01:40 PM
Can we stop blaming Carlyle for everything?

we never started.

KingTucker
11-19-2014, 01:52 PM
Glad Zeke brought up the Anaheim stats as a Ducks blogger brought the same items up. Ducks had been a progressively declining possession team since 2011, as Carlyle preferred a conservative brand of hockey that simply didn't exist anymore and was trending downward overall.

The simple fact that Randy's solution is: "Drop and give me 20" (see today's practice) all but indicates he's lost what tenous grasp he had on his mind, if not the room.
I expect to see a change by mid-December.

BeLeafer
11-19-2014, 01:58 PM
It's all work ethic and compete level.


I just vomited from typing that.

CRL
11-19-2014, 02:01 PM
Glad Zeke brought up the Anaheim stats as a Ducks blogger brought the same items up. Ducks had been a progressively declining possession team since 2011, as Carlyle preferred a conservative brand of hockey that simply didn't exist anymore and was trending downward overall.

The simple fact that Randy's solution is: "Drop and give me 20" (see today's practice) all but indicates he's lost what tenous grasp he had on his mind, if not the room.
I expect to see a change by mid-December.

Who is available to replace him? Balysma?

Leafin'
11-19-2014, 02:07 PM
have you watched HBO 24/7 last year? for me it was more than enough to understand that Randy might not even qualify for Babcock's assistant

Do you guys remember that vid of Phaneuf and Crosby getting into it? Phaneuf:"You wouldn't like if we did that to you"(in the most bitch sounding voice i've ever heard. Crosby:"that Kadri is a piece of shit" (in an actual mans voice)

I can't find the vid, but i'm sure some will recall.

I cringe anytime i recall that video and remember that he is our captain.

number17
11-19-2014, 02:10 PM
Can we stop blaming Carlyle for everything? I understand he has his own share of blame, but the effort level is awful. No F*cks given at all by this team.Carlyle IS a problem.

And when coaching - and his system, is the basic problem of the team, it masks a lot of other problems. Until you get rid of this, you don't know what problems you may or may not have on the rest of the team.

Remember goaltending was a problem, and how because the dmen couldn't trust the goalies, there's always that degree of hesitation and over-playing to compensate for the goalie, which then affected the F's .... it's a domino effect.

Similarly, if the players can't trust the system, some will inevitably stop competing because it doesn't yield any effect. Others may start doing their own things and try to win the game on their own. I think that's what we're seeing in Toronto. Some players have a low 'compete level', some try too hard to win games on their own.

Remove the coach and put in a better system, then you know which players can keep and which must go.

LeafOfFaith
11-19-2014, 02:22 PM
Let's change the title of this thread to "Can we change a coach already??"

number17
11-19-2014, 03:02 PM
Let's change the title of this thread to "Can we change a coach already??"I second that ...

blacksheep
11-19-2014, 03:10 PM
We already have the Official Fire Randy Carlyle thread. (http://www.forumice.com/showthread.php?59468-The-Official-Fire-Randy-Carlyle-Thread) No point in duplicating that.

blacksheep
11-19-2014, 03:10 PM
Never did

He changed his clothes...

KingTucker
11-19-2014, 03:16 PM
Who is available to replace him? Balysma?

They can have Horachek be a lame duck until the end of the year, or they can go full out and put in Torts, Bylsma, Oates or someone like that. I'm just glad Eakins is gone so we don't put him in charge.



Carlyle IS a problem.

And when coaching - and his system, is the basic problem of the team, it masks a lot of other problems. Until you get rid of this, you don't know what problems you may or may not have on the rest of the team.

(...)

Remove the coach and put in a better system, then you know which players can keep and which must go.

Fingers are already being pointed at Dion but he may not be moveable at this point. I do agree they need a new voice before Nonis does something dumb like trading our youth for another veteran stopgap.

leafman101
11-19-2014, 03:23 PM
Fire Nonis too and replace them with the Hunters.

blacksheep
11-19-2014, 03:26 PM
Fire Nonis too and replace them with the Hunters.

I'd be ok with that.
And I'm glad you don't still think Carlyle can change.

BeLeafer
12-11-2014, 07:31 AM
Next year the new regime of Dubas & Babcock will take over.

http://whoyoucallingaskeptic.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/the-amazing-kreskin.jpg

Expect Wings To Soon Announce New Contract For Babcock


Several NHL sources are indicating that coach Mike Babcock and the Detroit Red Wings will soon agree on a new contract that will keep Babcock behind the Red Wings bench for the next four to five years and make him the highest-paid coach in the NHL.

An announcement of the new deal is imminent, perhaps as early as within the next few days. ...
http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=64715

#prescient

LeafGm
12-11-2014, 07:51 AM
No surprise if Babcock re-signs. We've seen many posters sketch out grand plans that hinge on signing a guy who's set to be a UFA in a year or two and invariably, that UFA re-signs with their current team long before hitting the open market.

Babcock probably just used the threat of bolting from the Wings for Toronto to squeeze more money out of the Wings. Sort of like PK Subban publicly musing about the idea of playing in Toronto when the Habs weren't giving in to his demands.

zeke
12-11-2014, 12:52 PM
honestly there's a shittonne of coaches who understand the basics if possession hockey.

paul maurice understands it well. too bad we gave him a team with league worst goaltending and zero first liners.

LeafGm
12-11-2014, 01:55 PM
Well, I guess those with hopes of Babcock ending up behind the Leaf bench can keep the dream alive:


Craig Custance @CraigCustance · 50m 50 minutes ago
Babcock calls reports of imminent deal fantasy.

Craig Custance @CraigCustance · 37m 37 minutes ago
More Babcock: "As far as negotiation between Mike Babcock & Ken Holland, there is none. Ok? There is none... There's nothing more to tell."

Craig Custance @CraigCustance · 36 mins36 minutes ago
Asked Babcock if a deal during the season was a possibility: "I don't think so."

CTheBigPicture
12-11-2014, 01:58 PM
THE DREAM IS ALIVE!

number17
12-11-2014, 02:17 PM
honestly there's a shittonne of coaches who understand the basics if possession hockey.

paul maurice understands it well. too bad we gave him a team with league worst goaltending and zero first liners.I firmly believe Maurice and Wilson are better coaches than Carlyle.

However, I also believe Wilson, even with a real goalie, would NEVER have worked in Toronto because of his personality. His constant feud with the media brings too much negative energy on to teh team and in the long haul, this would never work for a city like Toronto.

LeafGm
12-11-2014, 02:57 PM
I firmly believe Maurice and Wilson are better coaches than Carlyle.

However, I also believe Wilson, even with a real goalie, would NEVER have worked in Toronto because of his personality. His constant feud with the media brings too much negative energy on to teh team and in the long haul, this would never work for a city like Toronto.
His feuding with the media wasn't even the worst part. I just don't see how you could possibly be a successful NHL coach in this day and age if you're a prick that takes joy out of tossing your players under the bus to the media, while at the same time refusing to talk to any of them behind closed doors.

Deckie007
12-11-2014, 04:25 PM
Well, I guess those with hopes of Babcock ending up behind the Leaf bench can keep the dream alive:

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/fc/fc2fca5cc8833d35c92822a6af386914480a4e7c2411a6329d 9742eb6bc89110.jpg


But seriously, just a coach with an actual system that works would be a welcome change from Clueless Carlyle.

Leafin'
12-11-2014, 05:35 PM
I'm not even sure Babcock would want to come here. Toronto could potentially ruin his career if things don't go well. Risky on his part to go from Detroit to Toronto.

MindzEye
12-11-2014, 05:41 PM
I'm not even sure Babcock would want to come here. Toronto could potentially ruin his career if things don't go well. Risky on his part to go from Detroit to Toronto.

A truck load of money(highest paid coach in history by an embarrassing amount), carte blanche to remake the team over a period of 4-5 years, and the chance to become legendary in the leagues biggest market.

If shit flopped in Toronto, there would still be teams lining up to hire him, the prevailing wisdom would be that the franchise was disfunctional...not Babcock.

CTheBigPicture
12-11-2014, 05:43 PM
I'm not even sure Babcock would want to come here. Toronto could potentially ruin his career if things don't go well. Risky on his part to go from Detroit to Toronto.
why would it? He is known in the industry as one of the best with a history of success. It's the Leafs that would look bad in that case.

He will command a lot of $'s. He will demand a lot of control, and he will get a chance to go down in history if he wins here.

If he fails? the narrative will be that even the best coach couldn't fix an organization that is incompetent top to bottom and has been so since 1967.

This job should be very attractive to him. Even if he doesn't like the make up of the team, we have the pieces to make moves and make it his team.

Leafin'
12-11-2014, 05:55 PM
Whoa whoa whoa, don't all jump at me at once :smilewinkgrin:

Besides money and the fact that he can be this mythical savior of hockey in Toronto(which i think is BS), i just don't see it as a slam dunk he would come here.

Lots of factors at play when playing for Toronto. Carlyle was one of the "best" coaches in hockey before we got him, not hes a turd we can't push out fast enough.

Carlyle will likely not find a job after this. same as Wilson.

Blueman
12-11-2014, 10:51 PM
Can we save the Carlyle bashing until we are out of the playoff picture?

LeafGm
12-11-2014, 11:17 PM
Can we save the Carlyle bashing until we are out of the playoff picture?
No.

Blueman
12-11-2014, 11:18 PM
No.

Haters gonna hate

zeke
12-11-2014, 11:19 PM
Can we save the Carlyle bashing until we are out of the playoff picture?

by then its too late.

number17
12-12-2014, 10:20 AM
by then its too late.yeah.

Plus, as Mirtle posted today (or yesterday?) ... Dubas is right in saying you can't just look at the W's and points. You gotta look at all the vital signs and right now, being one of the worst puck possession teams, and having one of the highest shots-against per game, this 'success' isn't sustainable. You gotta fix it before it's too late.

MindzEye
12-12-2014, 10:42 AM
That makes me smile....because then it means that unlike in previous seasons where a few lucky wins would protect Randy's ass, it won't anymore.

LeafGm
12-12-2014, 11:15 AM
Haters gonna hate
I don't hate Randy. I just think he's a poor coach for the modern NHL, and for this group in particular. And it's not like this belief is based on nothing. There's plenty of evidence for it, from the Leafs' performance with him at the helm, and the Ducks' possession numbers, which cratered over the course of his tenure there.

If you disagree, make your arguments. Don't just tell people to stop discussing it.

number17
12-12-2014, 11:25 AM
That makes me smile....because then it means that unlike in previous seasons where a few lucky wins would protect Randy's ass, it won't anymore.But it still does, to a large extent. We're never gonna fire a coach even if we're daed last in possession while we're playing on 100+ points pace. That just won't happen (and it wouldn't be right either)

So all they can do, is continue to press Carlyle & coaches to improve on possession and cut down on SA. But we already know he can't, so it's all a moot point.

Deckie007
12-12-2014, 11:30 AM
Stats look eerily similar to last year. Thinking there will be a different end result seems naive to me.

leafman101
12-12-2014, 11:32 AM
In fairness the stats have skewed to the negative side during this win streak. Previously, while on a 90 point pace, their numbers, including PDO, suggested that was sustainable.

Right now this team just isn't playing like a 100 point team, despite winning at that rate. They have been playing like a 90ish point playoff bubble team though.

number17
12-12-2014, 11:34 AM
the stats that look similar are possession and shots against ... and no surprise there.

What has changed, is we're a deeper offensive club, we're an EVEN MORE offensive club, and we're much improved in PK.

For those reasons, I don't expect the same down-fall as last year. Everything's possible but last year's downfall had a lot to do with Bernier's injury, and over-use of the 1st line during the first 3/4 of the season so they were completely burnt out in the last 20 games. The fact the leafs had no offense beyond our super-1st line was the dagger in the heart.

leafman101
12-12-2014, 11:40 AM
Corsi numbers aren't great, but they are significantly better than last year. Corsi close is up to 45.8 from 42.0 - and they were actually as high as 47.7 prior to this little slide (and like I said those numbers looked sustainable). That shows that we are still too early in the season to get concrete results with these numbers. Lots of fluctuation from 2 and a half bad games. The sample size is still really small. That said, the improvement in Corsi should have an impact on the standings in the end. 4-6 points is a pretty huge jump in shots generated ratio.

But there is a long way to go to get to where they want to be.

blacksheep
12-12-2014, 11:49 AM
In fairness the stats have skewed to the negative side during this win streak. Previously, while on a 90 point pace, their numbers, including PDO, suggested that was sustainable.

Right now this team just isn't playing like a 100 point team, despite winning at that rate. They have been playing like a 90ish point playoff bubble team though.

Why would they play any differently under the same coach with the same system? Carlyle called his first timeout in years last game, for example.
Now that we see our offensive depth increasing, it makes it even more ridiculous that he would leave the first line as is for so long. He could switch things up before it all falls apart again, if he were willing to change.
Bernier was playing well, but still letting in at least one softie per game, and yet continuing to get every single start. Finally, on a back-to-back, he puts Riemer in reluctantly, and he saves us from the rest of Carlyle's crap system on the ice. James played better last game than Bernier has in the last five. Too bad it took a back-to-back for him to get that chance.
Nothing has changed. If we make the playoffs at all, we'll bow out quickly afterwards. I bet we won't even make it at all.
Even worse, I bet he doesn't get fired again.

MindzEye
12-12-2014, 12:58 PM
But it still does, to a large extent. We're never gonna fire a coach even if we're daed last in possession while we're playing on 100+ points pace. That just won't happen (and it wouldn't be right either)

So all they can do, is continue to press Carlyle & coaches to improve on possession and cut down on SA. But we already know he can't, so it's all a moot point.

I think last year is a good example though, where all sorts of Randy protecting excuses like poor leadership, etc can get thrown around to shield him from criticism for the performance of the club when the underlying numbers (or as KD put it, "the process") are extremely damning to the head coach. A few lucky victories earlier in the season protected Randy from the outcome looking a lot worse than the narrative of a late season collapse brought about by poor leadership.

Blueman
12-13-2014, 10:24 AM
Finally, on a back-to-back, he puts Riemer in reluctantly,

How do you figure?

leaffan2005
12-13-2014, 11:37 AM
Don't think it was reluctant at all. Bernier was coming off a bunch of solid performances, so it speaks to him wanting to get Reimer some work and him being confident of getting a performance that would give us a chance to beat a solid Red Wings team.

Pronger84
12-14-2014, 07:52 PM
Stats look eerily similar to last year. Thinking there will be a different end result seems naive to me.

I think we'll take another swan dive towards the end of the season but I don't see it being as drastic as losing 12 of our 14 games like last year though, I mean we can't be that bad right? I still say that we'll collapse somewhat but we'll hold onto one of the wildcare spots and squak into the playoffs.

MindzEye
12-14-2014, 08:02 PM
Yeah, if Bernier gets hurt and Reimer plays at a .880 clip, we'll have a similar drop at the end of the season.

Of course, we're not getting out shot like we were last year, we're a better (though not good) possession club this season, etc.

Pronger84
12-14-2014, 08:08 PM
Yes you're right we've managed to improve our shots for which is up to 30.4 shots per game and we've slashed our shots down to 33.4 (which is still on the high side), tells me the compete is much improved but the attention to detail still needs much more work.

Knock on wood Bernier doesn't get injured, he's key here to us making a playoff run. Given everything that has transpired, while I don;t think we ride this hot streak all year, I also don't see a fiery collapse either but I do think we snag one of the final the WC spots and make squeak in and who knows maybe go on a run.

blacksheep
12-15-2014, 01:28 AM
How do you figure?


Don't think it was reluctant at all. Bernier was coming off a bunch of solid performances, so it speaks to him wanting to get Reimer some work and him being confident of getting a performance that would give us a chance to beat a solid Red Wings team.

Good thing we were having a back-to-back, because Riemer would never get a start otherwise.
Kinda glad Carlyle didn't let Bernier start against his old team, though. James did a fantastic job against the cup champs tonight, don't you think?

leafman101
12-15-2014, 03:46 AM
At this point the leafs top line is holding them back from being a middle of the pack Corsi team.

Montana
12-15-2014, 07:26 AM
http://whoyoucallingaskeptic.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/the-amazing-kreskin.jpg

Expect Wings To Soon Announce New Contract For Babcock


http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=64715

#prescient


adorable.

CaptainBolduke
12-15-2014, 08:38 AM
If this keeps up Randy is on the verge of being the only Leafs coach (for the 2nd time) to bring the team to the playoffs in the last 10 years.

MindzEye
12-15-2014, 09:03 AM
If this keeps up Randy is on the verge of being the only Leafs coach (for the 2nd time) to bring the team to the playoffs in the last 10 years.

With this lineup, the playoffs should be an expectation. Where we struggle, are the areas in which the coach has the most influence over.

blacksheep
12-20-2014, 09:19 PM
Let the annual Christmas meltdown tradition begin....

CRL
12-20-2014, 09:55 PM
I say consistency

JackBurton
12-20-2014, 10:41 PM
http://whoyoucallingaskeptic.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/the-amazing-kreskin.jpg

Expect Wings To Soon Announce New Contract For Babcock


http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=64715

#prescient

Thankfully this story was complete horseshit.

LeafGm
12-21-2014, 03:44 PM
A visual representation of Leaf management trying to change things by firing the assistant coaches and keeping the head coach:

http://i.imgur.com/dSKqUNv.jpg

blacksheep
12-21-2014, 07:24 PM
Thankfully this story was complete horseshit.

We wish.
I really don't expect Babcock to leave the place where he's so happy, and has all the support any coach could dream of.
We have the money, and we have Shanny. So if he truly does want a change of venue, we have a good chance. But that's really all we have.

number17
12-26-2014, 02:40 PM
Not sure where to stick this so might as well put it here ... but NJD fired DeBoer today ... Other than the fact Lou is cold-blooded in choosing day after Christmas day to do the firing, I'm not sure what Lou expects of his roaster. The Devils are 12-17-7 (on pace for 70 points season) but look at that roster ... you have a 70 year old Jagr, and a collection of 'parts that don't fit' including Gomez, Cammalleri, Ryder, Zidlicky, Havlat ... and Schneider has been struggling with a very average .917 SV%.

The Devils are struggling offensively with the 3rd worst GFA in the league of 2.07, and one look at that roster should explain it. You can replace the coach and I still don't know where the offense is gonna come from.

Hoss
12-26-2014, 03:00 PM
I was waiting for someone to post this as I saw it on my score feed. Deboer apparently was Shanahans first choice if I am not mistaken. And the Babcock things I think were more media and fan driven.
Were the two assistants in Toronto jersey guys? I think spot worked with clarkson in junior and deboer was the only guy to get anything out of clarkson.

I've said in the past I think deboer has always been the target, I just wonder if Shanahan actually does something about it or if he waits until the off season to see if Babcock actually is available. Are there any other teams that would look to snap up deboer early? Ottawa? Sharks if they lose McLennan or whatever spelling.

Montana
12-26-2014, 03:59 PM
Perfect, he's who I long ago predicted we'd hire if Babcock wasn't available.....good to see he'll potentially be available.



Dubas & Babcock, of Dubas & DeBoer and im a happy man.

zeke
12-26-2014, 03:59 PM
Florida

07-08: 48.7cf% (21st)
----DeBoer Hired----
08-09: 46.7cf% (27th)
09-10: 44.5cf% (30th)
10-11: 50.3cf% (16th)
----DeBoer Fired----
11-12: 49.5cf% (16th)
12-13: 49.1cf% (17th)


New Jersey

09-10: 50.8cf% (15th)
10-11: 52.1cf% (7th)
----DeBoer Hired----
11-12: 50.3cf% (13th)
12-13: 55.9cf% (2nd)
13-14: 54.4cf% (3rd)
14-15: 49.8cf% (21st)


not an overwhelmingly clear case of great coaching impact but at the very least you can see that he seemed to manage to take the devils from being a good possession team to a great one, despite having a roster that most though had been steadily depleted of its talent.

GGpX
12-26-2014, 04:03 PM
Lou Lamiorello should step down. He's so far behind today's game.

MindzEye
12-26-2014, 04:06 PM
Florida

07-08: 48.7cf% (21st)
----DeBoer Hired----
08-09: 46.7cf% (27th)
09-10: 44.5cf% (30th)
10-11: 50.3cf% (16th)
----DeBoer Fired----
11-12: 49.5cf% (16th)
12-13: 49.1cf% (17th)


New Jersey

09-10: 50.8cf% (15th)
10-11: 52.1cf% (7th)
----DeBoer Hired----
11-12: 50.3cf% (13th)
12-13: 55.9cf% (2nd)
13-14: 54.4cf% (3rd)
14-15: 49.8cf% (21st)


not an overwhelmingly clear case of great coaching impact but at the very least you can see that he seemed to manage to take the devils from being a good possession team to a great one, despite having a roster that most though had been steadily depleted of its talent.

Just about anyone would be an improvement on Randy in this regard.

Is Deboer a cranky old ******* with terrible dad jokes?

blacksheep
12-27-2014, 12:23 PM
Lou Lamiorello should step down. He's so far behind today's game.

Oh, I don't know. Lam is so big on defensive hockey, his teams won by completely shutting down everyone. Maybe he should hire Randy and teach him about defense.

MapleLeafBlueJayBoy
12-27-2014, 12:41 PM
Lou is the coach, Adam Oates handled the forwards and Scott Stevens handles the defense.

LeafGm
12-27-2014, 02:38 PM
Perfect, he's who I long ago predicted we'd hire if Babcock wasn't available.....good to see he'll potentially be available.



Dubas & Babcock, of Dubas & DeBoer and im a happy man.
I felt the same about DeBoer, but I have to admit, this article (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2311141-coach-peter-deboer-brought-his-firing-by-the-new-jersey-devils-upon-himself), and this quote in particular give me pause:


"Well, I'm not a big statistics guy," DeBoer said of starting the goaltender with the .905 save percentage over the one that was sitting at .928. "I mean, I think those are a little misleading. I think despite the fact that Marty's save percentage is a little lower. Marty has played some excellent hockey for us."

JackBurton
12-27-2014, 04:40 PM
Playing Brodeur that much last season may have just caused them to miss the playoffs.

MindzEye
12-27-2014, 06:11 PM
Playing Brodeur that much last season may have just caused them to miss the playoffs.

Read some stuff about his love affair with Steve Bernier, instead of playing the kids which is making me rethink my position on him as well.

GGpX
12-27-2014, 07:12 PM
Oh, I don't know. Lam is so big on defensive hockey, his teams won by completely shutting down everyone. Maybe he should hire Randy and teach him about defense.

His teams last won a decade ago. Outside of one fluke run, they've done nothing of note. Lamiorello reminds me of when Pierre Gauthier (and the end of Gainey's term as well) was the Habs GM. The whole organization looks like a complete gong show run by the show runner and he's surrounded himself by cronies. New Jersey's been one of the shittiest drafting organizations in the NHL for the last decade (But David Conte is a great scout, didn't you hear?) and I looked at who they have doing the scouting and... Half the people there are the same ones who were scouting for Lou in the 90s.

David Conte & Claude Carrier have been there since 1984. Ed Thomlinson since 1982. Marcel Pronovost since 1990. Bob Hoffmeyer & Lou Reycroft since 1993. Milt Fisher, Jan Ludvig & Dan Labraaten since 1994. I mean, they only have two scouts there who've been around for less than five years, the rest have been there for 5+ years minimum. One of them being David Conte's son.

The scouting on both the amateur & pro level has been equally shitty. The guy(s) who said signing Volchenkov to a 6 year deal and Ryan Clowe to a 5 year deal was a good idea should be fired. The guy who said signing Michael Ryder to a deal should be fired. Who thought signing Travis Zajac, a ~45pt center who doesn't get twenty goals consistently and is about to hit 30, to $5.75M for 8 years was a good idea? He (or they) should be fired too.

What the NJD should strive for is to become the LAK of the East. Be a big, grinding team that wears others down and always holds on to the puck. They're going to be pretty shitty for a couple of years now so they'll be able to accumulate draft picks to build in whatever way they want.

GGpX
12-27-2014, 07:13 PM
Read some stuff about his love affair with Steve Bernier, instead of playing the kids which is making me rethink my position on him as well.

And how he would sit/bench Larsson to play Peter Harrold.

I personally think Deboer's a good coach who has the same tendencies a lot of other coaches have to play their favorite players more than others.

blacksheep
12-28-2014, 06:48 PM
His teams last won a decade ago.

But they won.
We've had worse lineups than this one get further under better coaching. We have a potent offense, and two very good goalies who save our asses far too often. But our penchant for giving up 35+ shots game after game after game will once again be the death of our season. We can blame individual players for not improving their game, or their lazy play, but even with many changes to our lineup, we're still seeing the same game. 35+ shots against, most every game.
Carlyle played D when he was in the NHL, and he sucked badly at it. As a coach, he's proven he has no idea how to teach it, either. Sometimes a poor player makes a good coach, but Randy's not that lucky, and our team is suffering under him.
Lam's teams at least never gave up 35+ shots per game most nights. He managed to keep hiring coaches who knew how to teach defensive hockey.
We should be so lucky.

Matrim
12-28-2014, 07:44 PM
But they won.
We've had worse lineups than this one get further under better coaching. We have a potent offense, and two very good goalies who save our asses far too often. But our penchant for giving up 35+ shots game after game after game will once again be the death of our season. We can blame individual players for not improving their game, or their lazy play, but even with many changes to our lineup, we're still seeing the same game. 35+ shots against, most every game.
Carlyle played D when he was in the NHL, and he sucked badly at it. As a coach, he's proven he has no idea how to teach it, either. Sometimes a poor player makes a good coach, but Randy's not that lucky, and our team is suffering under him.
Lam's teams at least never gave up 35+ shots per game most nights. He managed to keep hiring coaches who knew how to teach defensive hockey.
We should be so lucky.

Didn't he win a Norris trophy?

blacksheep
12-29-2014, 08:34 AM
Didn't he win a Norris trophy?

Didn't he also win a Stanley? What's your point?
Kevin Westgarth won a Stanley. Should we trade Kessel and JVR for him?

LeafGm
12-29-2014, 10:23 AM
Didn't he also win a Stanley? What's your point?
Kevin Westgarth won a Stanley. Should we trade Kessel and JVR for him?
You're such a pig-headed moron. You say that Carlyle played D in the NHL and "sucked badly at it", Matrim points out that Carlyle was once declared to be the best defenseman in the entire league during his career, and you ask him "what's your point"?

Idiot.

blacksheep
12-29-2014, 11:29 AM
You're such a pig-headed moron. You say that Carlyle played D in the NHL and "sucked badly at it", Matrim points out that Carlyle was once declared to be the best defenseman in the entire league during his career, and you ask him "what's your point"?

Idiot.

Andrew Raycroft won a Calder. That sure defined him as a top player, didn't it? One good season is all it takes.
Idiot.

Blueman
12-29-2014, 11:30 AM
Andrew Raycroft won a Calder. That sure defined him as a top player, didn't it? One good season is all it takes.
Idiot.

You really are obtuse

MindzEye
12-29-2014, 11:33 AM
I dislike Carlyle the coach as much as anyone here....but c'mon man

1 Norris
4 All Star Game appearances
647 career points
1 time NHL 1st team All Star

That's a damn good NHL career.

blacksheep
12-29-2014, 11:47 AM
I dislike Carlyle the coach as much as anyone here....but c'mon man

1 Norris
4 All Star Game appearances
647 career points
1 time NHL 1st team All Star

That's a damn good NHL career.

If you say so.
And besides, this is all besides the real point: that being a coach is nothing like being a player. One does not define the other.

Deckie007
12-29-2014, 11:54 AM
If you say so.
And besides, this is all besides the real point: that being a coach is nothing like being a player. One does not define the other.

Then why didn't you say that in the first place instead of insisting Carlyle was a shit player?

MapleLeafBlueJayBoy
12-29-2014, 11:56 AM
If you say so.
And besides, this is all besides the real point: that being a coach is nothing like being a player. One does not define the other.

Just say that then. No need for the other garbage.

MindzEye
12-29-2014, 12:22 PM
If you say so.

So ****ing weak.

Volcanologist
12-29-2014, 12:50 PM
Nothing will be done unless the Leafs record starts to better reflect their actual level of play. Right now they're hanging on to a playoff spot (the 3 teams behind them all have similar point totals and 2-3 games in hand). As long as they stay in at least that position Shanahan won't be firing Carlyle.

blacksheep
12-29-2014, 01:01 PM
Then why didn't you say that in the first place instead of insisting Carlyle was a shit player?

I have been saying all along that he's not an impressive coach.
This all started when I said he was not a good defenseman as a player, and Matrim decided to point out his single Norris win as proof that he is.
A bullshit point, to be sure.
As mentioned, Raycroft won a calder.
Westgarth won a cup.
Neither of those defined those players as great in their positions, either. Carlyle was a great defenseman because he once won a Norris?? wow...
But it was a great diversion from the point that Carlyle sucks as a coach, wasn't it?
Should we discuss how good a coach Gretzky can be now?
I mean, c'mon...

Blueman
12-29-2014, 04:54 PM
This all started when I said he was not a good defenseman as a player


Right, now back that up with you know, anything

Deckie007
12-29-2014, 05:05 PM
I have been saying all along that he's not an impressive coach.
This all started when I said he was not a good defenseman as a player, and Matrim decided to point out his single Norris win as proof that he is.
A bullshit point, to be sure.
As mentioned, Raycroft won a calder.
Westgarth won a cup.
Neither of those defined those players as great in their positions, either. Carlyle was a great defenseman because he once won a Norris?? wow...
But it was a great diversion from the point that Carlyle sucks as a coach, wasn't it?
Should we discuss how good a coach Gretzky can be now?
I mean, c'mon...

No one said he was great. Said he had a pretty damn good career, and the numbers and awards point to that. I was born in 1982, so I didn't see him play. I'd venture most of us didn't see him play in his prime. I don't know who you're arguing with regarding his coaching ability. Few on this board like him. No one is suggesting his playing career automatically makes him a good coach. Also, why the obsession with Westgarth? Dude won zero individual awards. He steal your girlfriend or something?

worm
12-29-2014, 05:06 PM
i dont understand why people cant just admit they were wrong

Leafin'
12-29-2014, 05:10 PM
i dont understand why people cant just admit they were wrong

Thats the reason why we've seen a decline in post volume over the last couple of years. Too many people know everything about everything.

Matrim
12-29-2014, 06:18 PM
I don't understand what's happening in this thread haha. As others have pointed out, Carlyle had a great career as a player. But as we all know at this point, he's a shit coach who should be fired. I don't know why you're getting so upset blacksheep.

rated
12-29-2014, 06:26 PM
I don't know why you're getting so upset blacksheep.

because someone proved him wrong about something

CH1
12-29-2014, 06:46 PM
i dont understand why people cant just admit they were wrong

people like us who are never wrong will never understand

blacksheep
12-29-2014, 07:02 PM
I don't know why you're getting so upset blacksheep.

I'm not upset at all. I'm actually quite amused at the reaction I got for daring to suggest that Carlyle wasn't much of a defenseman, which might be why he sucks trying to teach it.

blacksheep
12-29-2014, 07:10 PM
because someone proved him wrong about something

Ya, you're right. Carlyle's Norris proves he's a God of defensemen. wow...

blacksheep
12-29-2014, 07:12 PM
Right, now back that up with you know, anything

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=829

SundinsTooth
12-29-2014, 07:35 PM
I dislike Carlyle the coach as much as anyone here....but c'mon man

1 Norris
4 All Star Game appearances
647 career points
1 time NHL 1st team All Star

That's a damn good NHL career.

You are talking to a rock. Incapable of reflection.

soco22
12-29-2014, 07:54 PM
Don't get how other players can take randy seriously if he's on the record saying that the first line gets more slack for shitty play/defensive risks.

KingTucker
12-29-2014, 08:49 PM
Don't get how other players can take randy seriously if he's on the record saying that the first line gets more slack for shitty play/defensive risks.


This is standard NHL rote. The more skilled guys always get more rope. It just can't be ALL the rope or they end up hanging themselves, and by association the coach.

MindzEye
12-29-2014, 09:54 PM
This thread can be closed I think. Randy was given a whole bunch of good veteran leaders during the off season, has 4 lines full of quality NHL players and we have the exact same problems. It's not just the Kessel line that struggles with shot differential, it's just about the entire ****ing team. Including guys who have never struggled in that regard anywhere else, playing for anyone else in their NHL careers.

Can a coach change? Maybe. This coach though clearly can not.

mbow30
12-29-2014, 10:51 PM
This thread can be closed I think. Randy was given a whole bunch of good veteran leaders during the off season, has 4 lines full of quality NHL players and we have the exact same problems. It's not just the Kessel line that struggles with shot differential, it's just about the entire ****ing team. Including guys who have never struggled in that regard anywhere else, playing for anyone else in their NHL careers.

Can a coach change? Maybe. This coach though clearly can not.

well, to be fair, to start the year the rest of the team was only a bit below average..... and now that he's starting splitting those team up the entire team is.

and, yeah, his teams are perennially subpar possession-wise, but i think we need to be cautious about swinging the pendulum too far in the other direction (i.e. high possession numbers = harbinger for success). let's not forget that carlyle won a cup with poor possession numbers (good team, long time ago, i know, it's just an easy example off the top of my head)... but on the flip side, the leafs were a good possession, but shit team, under wilson.

in any event, whatever carlyle is doing isn't working...

but, this team has a big problem because whatever line kessel is on, whatever line jvr is on and whatever line bozak is on is just shit defensively. period. exacerbated by randy, but still shit.

MindzEye
12-29-2014, 11:06 PM
well, to be fair, to start the year the rest of the team was only a bit below average..... and now that he's starting splitting those team up the entire team is.

and, yeah, his teams are perennially subpar possession-wise, but i think we need to be cautious about swinging the pendulum too far in the other direction (i.e. high possession numbers = harbinger for success). let's not forget that carlyle won a cup with poor possession numbers (good team, long time ago, i know, it's just an easy example off the top of my head)... but on the flip side, the leafs were a good possession, but shit team, under wilson.

As you well remember, I was no fan of Wilson's in the least, but dude was saddled with league bottom goaltending. It doesn't matter what system you play when you have Toskala. A term that Zeke coined recently (I think it was him anyway) was the "3 pillars". Goaltending skill, Goal scoring skill, and Possession skills. If you have all 3, you're elite.




but, this team has a big problem because whatever line kessel is on, whatever line jvr is on and whatever line bozak is on is just shit defensively. period. exacerbated by randy, but still shit.

Kessel & JVR I'm way less worried about. I think you separate them and put them with 2 possession drivers and you're fine. Both have had quality possession numbers previous to Randy. Bozak though, you just can't have a centre who has that effect on a line. I've been praying for us to sell high on him for a while now.

mbow30
12-29-2014, 11:10 PM
looks to me like jvr is killing their two best possession drivers' possession, though.

keep in mind that he was pretty sheltered in philly, on a good team that, for most of his career, featured arguably the best defensive d-man since big bird.

and kessel's not necessarily awful defensively, but his unwillingness to get hit is killer all over the ice.

mbow30
12-29-2014, 11:11 PM
in any event, they have to fire carlyle. whatever he's trying to implement isn't working with the pieces they have. but the issues run much, much deeper.

GGpX
12-30-2014, 12:22 AM
But they won.

So? Does that mean he should get a job for life, ignoring the job he's done over the past decade? He won over a decade ago when hockey was all about who could clutch and grab the most. Hockey isn't like that anymore and he's shown no signs of being able to adapt to the current game.

zeke
12-30-2014, 12:26 AM
well, to be fair, to start the year the rest of the team was only a bit below average..... and now that he's starting splitting those team up the entire team is.

and, yeah, his teams are perennially subpar possession-wise, but i think we need to be cautious about swinging the pendulum too far in the other direction (i.e. high possession numbers = harbinger for success). let's not forget that carlyle won a cup with poor possession numbers (good team, long time ago, i know, it's just an easy example off the top of my head)... but on the flip side, the leafs were a good possession, but shit team, under wilson.

in any event, whatever carlyle is doing isn't working...

but, this team has a big problem because whatever line kessel is on, whatever line jvr is on and whatever line bozak is on is just shit defensively. period. exacerbated by randy, but still shit.

carlyle's cup winning team, which he inherited mostly intact, was a good possession team.

he never won with a bad one.

he did steadily chip away at that good possession team year by year until theynbottomed out as one of the very worst possession teams in hockey.

of course, they bounced back from that as soon as he was fired.

zeke
12-30-2014, 12:54 AM
Ducks

05-06: 51.6shf%
06-07: 53.6shf% (cup)
07-08: 50.9cf%
08-09: 50.9cf%
09-10: 47.3cf%
10-11: 44.4cf% (30th)
----randy fired----
11-12: 48.5cf%
12-13: 48.0cf%
13-14: 49.8cf%
14-15: 50.6cf%


leafs

10-12: 47.8cf%
11-12: 48.9cf%
----randy hired----
12-13: 44.1cf% (30th)
13-14: 42.9cf% (30th)
14-15: 45.1cf% (27th) * - not including tonight's game

zeke
12-30-2014, 01:06 AM
randy actually took over for the last 18gms in 11-12.

11-12 shot diff

OCT: 11gms, -4.2 (26th)
NOV: 14gms, -2.4 (22nd)
DEC: 13gms, -2.1 (21st)
JAN: 12gms, +2.3 (10th)
FEB: 14gms, -1.4 (18th)
----randy hired----
MAR: 15gms, -5.7 (28th)
APR: 3gms, -7.3 (28th)

without randy: -1.6
with randy: -6.0

crazy

MyNameIsJonas
12-30-2014, 01:17 AM
this thread hurt my face.

MapleLeafBlueJayBoy
12-30-2014, 01:38 AM
I just wish people in this thread could enjoy the holidays.

blacksheep
12-30-2014, 05:58 AM
So? Does that mean he should get a job for life, ignoring the job he's done over the past decade? He won over a decade ago when hockey was all about who could clutch and grab the most. Hockey isn't like that anymore and he's shown no signs of being able to adapt to the current game.

Not my concern. Not yours either. If the current owners are happy with his inability to adjust, and want to keep him for life, that's their problem.
My concern is how THIS team's management seems to care more about profits than success. We have no recent success at all to speak of, despite far more changes to the league and game than Lam oversaw. No matter how bad you think it is that Lam is still the man, they have some recent success that we don't, and Lam has shown MANY TIMES to not hold on to a coach this long past his "best before" date.
So forgive us for thinking that MLSE's penchant for mediocrity that brings huge profits is yet again unacceptable. We held on to our last coach too long, and now we're doing the same. The fact that Nonis wasn't the guy who hired Carlyle to begin with is all the more reason he shouldn't be so reluctant to dump him. The replacement assistant coaches experiment has yielded zero improvement. Time for the hammer to fall.
Lam, at least, had the balls to do it, regardless of how outdated you believe his methods are today.

worm
12-30-2014, 10:46 AM
people like us who are never wrong will never understand

big talk for a guy with a chris higgins user name :p

Volcanologist
12-30-2014, 11:01 AM
The team's record will probably catch up(down?) with their play regardless, but at this stage the roster sans Randy needs to be evaluated.

It's time to move on, there is clearly no upside with this coach and this group of players.

MindzEye
12-30-2014, 11:08 AM
The team's record will probably catch up(down?) with their play regardless, but at this stage the roster sans Randy needs to be evaluated.

It's time to move on, there is clearly no upside with this coach and this group of players.

It's absolutely imperative to get a look at this group without Randy though. As down as I've been on Gardiner lately, pissing him away for 50 cents on the dollar (which is what will happen if we continue down this path) only to watch another coach fix him and have him turn into the #1-2 defender he clearly has the upside to be, would be ****ing devastating for the organization. Just like trading Kadri because Wilson didn't understand what the **** to do with him would have been.

If we bounced Randy now, and the team still showed identical indicators in the 2nd half of the season with no improvement in sight...okay, let's talk about cutting the core out of this group and parting it out. Let's see if Phaneuf, JVR, Bozak, Kessel, Lupul are really the problem. I don't think anyone can take an honest assessment of those player's track records, take an honest assessment of Randy's, and point even mostly at the players though. The monthly break down numbers Zeke started flashing around are incredibly telling, even if the annual ones weren't (which they were.....but still)

LeafGm
12-30-2014, 01:49 PM
I just wish people in this thread could enjoy the holidays.
Meh. I complain about these Leafs a lot, but they don't affect my general mood or day-to-day life. I suppose it helps that what's happening with them right now is exactly what I expected coming into the season, and it's even what I expected during the height of that ten game streak.

Repainting the car and replacing the tires is great, but it doesn't mean a whole lot if the engine's busted. The ball's in Shanahan's court now. He can either try to do something about that now, or watch this group lurch through the rest of the season in fits and starts to a finish out of the playoffs.

MapleLeafBlueJayBoy
12-30-2014, 01:59 PM
I was commenting more on certain posters "free time" during the holidays.

blacksheep
01-03-2015, 09:34 PM
Great job, MLSE. Keep this moron behind the bench so we can repeat last season... and the one before...

JackBurton
01-04-2015, 04:49 AM
It's funny how Paul Maclean and Peter Deboer have both been fired this season. The Leafs are keeping Randy and watching another season to a write-off.

Deckie007
01-04-2015, 02:40 PM
James Mirtle ‏@mirtle 37s37 seconds ago
Leafs have won 91 of 188 games under Carlyle. Only 78 wins in regulation or overtime. Outshot by 1,245 and 43.9% possession.

I think we're done here, Randy.

CH1
01-04-2015, 03:29 PM
Who would you guys like to see step in?

There's a nice week off after the game on the 21st -- might be a good time for a switch.

Hoss
01-04-2015, 03:35 PM
I think it should have been done today.... the fact that it hasn't worries me

Deckie007
01-04-2015, 03:35 PM
I think most people are holding out hope for Babcock. I'd be happy with anyone that can actually install a system that works. Dan Bylsma comes to mind..

Leafin'
01-04-2015, 04:15 PM
I wonder if they wait to fire Nonis as well before bringing in another coach.

Who gets it? Hunter? Dubas? Someone else?

LeafGm
01-04-2015, 04:41 PM
Who would you guys like to see step in?

There's a nice week off after the game on the 21st -- might be a good time for a switch.
If management's plan actually is to try and drive a dump truck full of cash up to Mike Babcock's door in the summer, I think they should stick with that (as much as I'll be surprised if Babcock's actually interested in leaving the Wings for us).

In the meantime, just give one of our assistants the interim duties for the rest of the season. Either Horacheck or Spott would be fine.

ForeverTML
01-05-2015, 08:50 AM
Carlyle after losing badly to the capitals on January 11, 2014:

“We’ve been begging, pleading, kicking, kissing — whatever we can do to try and find a way that we can play with some confidence,” said head coach Randy Carlyle. “It seems like we’ve squeezed our sticks here, just simple plays, D to D, simple quick ups with the puck. Pucks were rolling. We were putting pucks in people’s feet ... It’s mind-boggling, believe me. It’s mind-boggling. But we still lost the hockey game.”

Carlyle at this season's training camp on September 19 2014:

"I think we have to change. We begged, borrowed, stole, tried to convince (players last season) we had to play a more puck-possession game," Carlyle said at the start of training camp.

Carlyle after the winnipeg loss on January 3, 2015:

Given that Shanahan had been pacing the corridor outside the Leafs dressing room only moments before Carlyle said those words, it was an interesting time for the coach to explain the nuts and bolts of National Hockey League power and politics. Carlyle, too, took pains to share publicly how difficult the task of coaching this group continues to prove.

"We've been trying and preaching and begging, coddling, kicking — doing whatever you have to do to get more people back in the puck recovery zone," he said.

LeafGm
01-05-2015, 09:14 AM
Carlyle spent most of last season repeatedly telling reporters that he was "mind-boggled", and out of ideas. No surprise that he's still saying the same now.

There was another interesting quote from Carlyle that preceded that "preaching, begging, coddling, kicking" quote though:


"You don't always have the luxury to say that you'd like this player or that player or this type of player. That's not the way it works," Carlyle said. "How it works is you have an organization that provides you with players, and our job, as we've said all along, is just to coach 'em up."
That sounds awfully like Carlyle complaining that management's to blame for not giving him the players he wants.

I wonder if he's still pining for Colton Orr and Frazer McLaren, and imagining that they're the solution to the team's problems?

CH1
01-05-2015, 09:39 AM
It's time to put Randy out of his misery.

blacksheep
01-05-2015, 10:58 AM
That sounds awfully like Carlyle complaining that management's to blame for not giving him the players he wants.

Great coaches get results from whatever they're given.
Shitty coaches complain they can't work with what they've been given.

blacksheep
01-05-2015, 10:58 AM
It's time to put Leaf Nation out of Randy's misery.

FYP

Volcanologist
01-06-2015, 10:07 AM
Final answer: "no".

blacksheep
01-06-2015, 11:02 AM
Final answer: "no".

This.

LeafGm
01-06-2015, 11:05 AM
Final answer: "no".
Who could have possibly guessed that?

number17
01-06-2015, 11:57 AM
In fact, the decision to fire Carlyle 6 months after the fact not only tells us management finally acknowledges what fans knew back in the summer, but it also tells you a lot about the GM / Prez who gave Carlyle the vote of confidence.

hockeylover
01-06-2015, 12:03 PM
I like most of what Shanahan's done overall, but I'm still really disappointed in his decision not to fire Carlyle in the summer.

leafman101
01-06-2015, 12:05 PM
McKenzie reported earlier today that they kept him in the summer because there was no one available they wanted to commit to.

hockeylover
01-06-2015, 12:10 PM
So they committed to Randy and told him "just coach differently".

number17
01-06-2015, 12:16 PM
McKenzie reported earlier today that they kept him in the summer because there was no one available they wanted to commit to.And now they realize even Spott + Horacek are better than Randy?

leafman101
01-06-2015, 12:16 PM
Well they just fired him, so they didn't commit very much.

The logic is easy to see in that argument though. If you hire a guy you don't really want all of a sudden you're stuck. Not many coaches are fired 6 months/1 year into the job. If you know what want and its not available, waiting isn't the worst option.

leafman101
01-06-2015, 12:17 PM
And now they realize even Spott + Horacek are better than Randy?

Not sure they see either of them as the long term solution either. But bringing in two former head coaches as assistants certainly seems like it was their back up plan.

number17
01-06-2015, 12:24 PM
Give it up already man. You were the one who defended the decision to retain Carlyle in the summer, despite all signs pointed to the fact that was the wrong decision to make. And now 6 months after the fact they acknowledge that mistake. It's that simple really. It was a mistake, they screwed up, and now we wasted 1/2 (to possibly the entire) of the season.

hockeylover
01-06-2015, 12:24 PM
Most vocal defender of bringing back Randy still going strong. Hell, points for commitment to an opinion I suppose.

leafman101
01-06-2015, 12:27 PM
I'm not even defending Carlyle, or the decision to keep him. I'm just commenting on what Bobby Mac said about Shanahan's decision. It makes sense. It wasn't me that started it, it was one of the more respected reporters in hockey.

Apparently Shanny made this huge mistake, however the Leafs have 45 points in 40 games, just fired the guy everyone wanted them to fire, and aren't committed to some other shitty coach beyond this year. I don't really see the huge fallout here.

hockeylover
01-06-2015, 12:46 PM
You're not defending the decision to bring Carlyle back but you think it makes perfect sense/it's not a big deal?

leafman101
01-06-2015, 12:51 PM
I think Bob Mackenzie's point makes sense yes. I see the logic there.

And I also think Shanahan reacted quickly here, despite the good record, which we never saw in the past from guys like Burke. He didn't let the situation get out of hand.

number17
01-06-2015, 01:27 PM
Shanny's reacting to the situation a lot sooner than Burkie, I'll give you that, but that's not even my point. It's not a comparison between shanny & Burke.

It goes back to when Shanny gave Carlyle a 2 years extension in the summer many on this board said it was a huge mistake (and fortunately, i also think that is the lone big mistake that sticks out ... granted he's also been saved from some possible mistakes like Bolland signing but I digress) but you defended Shanny to the bitter end. And now Shanny finally admitted it and fired Carlyle, you still arguing it was no big deal to commit to Carlyle cause there's nobody else worth committing to ... despite the fact now 6 months after the fact it's so bloody clear even Horacek and Spott are better choices than Randy.

And I disagree it is 'no big deal' because we have 45 points in 40 games. Standing is one thing, but look at how players like Rielly and Gardiner have developed under Carlyle this season. Also consider it's lost opportunity for the team especially the core group to take a step in the right direction in accountability, in defence, in work ethics, in consistency .... yet half a season is down the drain and it's the same team out there.

For a young team that's defining its identity and trying to establish themselves as a serious cup contender, throwing 6 months (and whatever time it needs for the team to recover from yet another coaching change) is a big deal.

CTheBigPicture
01-06-2015, 01:40 PM
For me this was obvious and inevitable, whether it was done in the summer, or now, or at the end of this season. Randy simply can not coach in this 'new' league.

The main questions I have to ask regardless who will end up coaching this team: while Dion is a top D in this league, is he a number 1 D on a cup winning team? while Kessel is a top F in this league, is he a top go to F on a cup winning team? while Kadri is improving, can he become a number 1 C on a cup winning team? while Rielly is a blue chip D, can he become a number 1 D on a cup winning team? Are either Reimer or Bernier number 1 cup winning goalies?

When you summarize all that, questions come down to:

1- I don't believe Phil will ever be a go to player that would nullify the need to have a go to #1 C (think Patrick Kane in Chicago), so is Kadri a potential cup winning number 1 C?
2- I don't believe Dion is a number 1 cup winning D, so can Rielly fill that void?
3- I don't think James is a cup winning number 1 G, so is Bernier?


Answering YES to ALL those questions will have the team with a number 1 D, Number 1 winger, Number 1 C, Number 1 G, Number 2 D. Adding likes of Nylander and JVR and the team is in a great shape to fill up the roster and compete for the cup.

Answering NO to ANY of those, will lead to major changes being necessary. If we are missing a number 1 C, we'll have to give up major pieces to get him; likewise for number 1 D, and, to a lesser extent, for a number 1 G. We may even have to tank it to fill one of these spots (especially the first two)

I cannot give a CLEAR yes to any of those questions. Can you?

leafman101
01-06-2015, 01:44 PM
Yeah, I think thats an overreaction. Which has been my point from day 1, not that Carlyle is the best coach for this team or something like that.

Carlyle's gone. No damage was really done. Not very much time was wasted. Huge mistakes typically have repercussions.

And IMO that Burke/Shanahan comparison is pretty apt. Its not comparing them as GMs. Its acknowledging how quick of a reaction time Shanny actually had here. I can't really complain too much about how he has handled the job so far. He saw 40 games of Carlyle and pulled the trigger, despite having a good record. Should he have fired Carlyle 4 months earlier? Maybe. At the end of the day does it really matter? No.

The biggest damage here is some Leafs fans were annoyed for a few months longer.

MindzEye
01-06-2015, 01:47 PM
The biggest damage here is some Leafs fans were annoyed for a few months longer.

Well...and the potential damage Carlyle did to the club of course. We get to answer the question of whether or not our problems were Randy, or this core.

leafman101
01-06-2015, 01:51 PM
Well...and the potential damage Carlyle did to the club of course. We get to answer the question of whether or not our problems were Randy, or this core.

But if the problems were Randy and not the Core this team is in solid shape right now, and its early enough in the season to make a difference. They are in the playoffs, the problem is eradicated and there is half a season left.

Shanny reacted relatively quickly here. He didn't wait for the 18 wheeler to go off the cliff.

hockeylover
01-06-2015, 01:56 PM
He brought back a coach who pretty clearly was not going to turn things around, asked him to coach differently, and hired two assistant coaches because he knew it wouldn't work.

He made a bad decision. He fixed it and good for him, but it was a bad decision.

BeLeafer
01-06-2015, 02:06 PM
Yep, I was totally annoyed watching the Leafs over the past few months under Carlyle. Awful lineup and role decisions and horrid possession play. Pretty much stopped watching them for this spell.

I'm totally juiced to see how this squad does with Horachuk and Sprott or another coach that may be brought in. Let's cross our fingers that this isn't Eakins or Deboer.

CTheBigPicture
01-06-2015, 02:06 PM
But if the problems were Randy and not the Core this team is in solid shape right now, and its early enough in the season to make a difference. They are in the playoffs, the problem is eradicated and there is half a season left.

Shanny reacted relatively quickly here. He didn't wait for the 18 wheeler to go off the cliff.

Scenarios:

1- Shanny knew Randy was going to be fired and thought the core was good enough: why did he wait till the teams behind us have so many games in hand likely forcing the team to play catch up the rest of the way? just what did he learn the past few weeks that he didn't know before?

2- Shanny knew Randy was going to be fired and didn't think the core was good enough: why did he fire him now? either ride out the season, get a high pick and make changes along the way, or fire him over the summer and start the rebuild.

3- Shanny knew Randy was going to be fired but didn't know whether the core was good enough or not: then why fire him now? Fire him over the summer, and give one of the new assistants an opportunity to give us a different look. Could have helped with the assessment.

4- Shanny didn't know Randy was going to be fired and really thought of him as the teams' coach down the road: well, in this case he just sucks in evaluation then. Randy's inability to coach this team was very obvious


to me the most likely scenario is this:

Shanny thought of this year as a throw away season; he knew Randy wasn't going to be the coach of this team, and he also knew that the core wasn't good enough. He wanted to wait to become the GM of the team in the summer, hand in the coaching duties to Babcock, and make major changes on the draft table and throughout the summer. He was praying that this team would play good enough for him not to be forced to fire Randy till then. Unfortunately, the team kept getting hammered. He now fires Randy and will go with the assistants. The team will get a shot in the arm for a bit but will tank again. He will use the excuse of having to wait till the summer to make changes and we'll pick in the 7th, 8th spot in the draft.

leafman101
01-06-2015, 02:10 PM
He brought back a coach who pretty clearly was not going to turn things around, asked him to coach differently, and hired two assistant coaches because he knew it wouldn't work.

He made a bad decision. He fixed it and good for him, but it was a bad decision.

No one is saying it was the right decision. It just wasn't a huge mistake that is all that impactful at the end of the day, or worth the endless criticism of Shanahan for the past 6 months, because he managed it properly. Which is all I said from the begining, that its not that big of a deal, and wouldn't have dire consequences. And it wasn't, and didn't.

No one makes the right decision every single time. The important part is recognizing when you didn't and reacting quickly enough. Shanny handled this better than any of our last handful of GM's handled their coaches.

CTheBigPicture
01-06-2015, 02:14 PM
some clues:

"The twist was that the announced two-year extension is actually one year guaranteed and one year at the club’s option. This gave Carlyle the security he needs to handle next season’s version of the Leafs but does not commit the Leafs to anything beyond one year after that.

If the Leafs fired Carlyle this week, they would have owed him one year’s pay (presuming there are no specific severance terms in the contract). If things don’t go well and the Leafs fire Carlyle one year from now they will still owe him one year’s pay. In that respect, nothing changes, just the timing."

"This did not happen solely because as Nonis said, Carlyle “is the right coach for our team.” Nonis sincerely believes that and good for him for sticking by his man in the face of all that noise calling for Carlyle’s head.

But Shanahan needed some convincing and this is where Carlyle had luck on his side. Before he agreed with Nonis, Shanahan took a long look at the coaches who were available. He decided none of them were better than Carlyle."


from this article on May 9th:
Shoalts: Leafs coach Randy Carlyle's contract extension a clever compromise
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/shoalts-carlyle-extension-a-clever-compromise/article18595008/#246_1380034992_10591_-1_1420572008475

blacksheep
01-06-2015, 02:16 PM
cantberandy101 is still defending Carlyle? Colour me surprised.

MindzEye
01-06-2015, 02:18 PM
But if the problems were Randy and not the Core this team is in solid shape right now, and its early enough in the season to make a difference. They are in the playoffs, the problem is eradicated and there is half a season left.

Shanny reacted relatively quickly here. He didn't wait for the 18 wheeler to go off the cliff.

So squeaking into the playoffs instead of being a 100-103 point team (where our talent and goaltending suggests we would be if this were an averageish possession club) isn't damage?

leafman101
01-06-2015, 02:21 PM
So squeaking into the playoffs instead of being a 100-103 point team (where our talent and goaltending suggests we would be if this were an averageish possession club) isn't damage?

Well first of all I don't agree with your evaluation of the team.

Second of all there are 42 games left and the Leafs are currently on pace for 92 points. 100 is still well within reach if they are indeed that good. Not sure why you'd give up on them with half a season left.

Shanny reacted early enough here to make a difference THIS season.

zeke
01-06-2015, 02:29 PM
Dunno. We need a drastic improvement just to maintain this 92pts pace, let alone improve on it.

leafman101
01-06-2015, 02:29 PM
I thought thats what firing the anchor was.

zeke
01-06-2015, 02:30 PM
I don'the get it. If my team sets a record for shots allowed, I fire my coach, period.

Montana
01-06-2015, 02:30 PM
Hiring a better coach this coming offseason, than we would have last offseason.....would offset any 'mistake' they made by keeping Carlyle, for me personally.

If Babcock or Deboer end up being our guy, I'll be fine with us having had to keep Carlyle around a few months longer than was ideal.

Especially if there weren't any coaches available that they were in love with last summer.

zeke
01-06-2015, 02:32 PM
I thought thats what firing the anchor was.

The chances we can make a significant improvement within a month are slim....and another month of this kind of play probably tanks us.

number17
01-06-2015, 02:35 PM
Well first of all I don't agree with your evaluation of the team.

Second of all there are 42 games left and the Leafs are currently on pace for 92 points. 100 is still well within reach if they are indeed that good. Not sure why you'd give up on them with half a season left.

Shanny reacted early enough here to make a difference THIS season.The problem is, and I see you don't get this, firing the coach today doesn't mean the team starts getting better tomorrow. Firing the coach means the beginning of a turn-around period, and many times we see the team gets worse before it gets better. So if we're on 92 points pace right now, we will probably get worse than 92 points pace before we can get better.

And this is assuming Horacek and Spott CAN turn the team around quickly. This is the part where good teams don't want to replace their coach mid-season. It is very difficult to change the system (or lack of it) when you have games every 2-3 days, you have injuries, and you are limited in drills and practices you can run cause players have to prep for games.

leafman101
01-06-2015, 02:37 PM
The problem is, and I see you don't get this, firing the coach today doesn't mean the team starts getting better tomorrow. Firing the coach means the beginning of a turn-around period, and many times we see the team gets worse before it gets better. So if we're on 92 points pace right now, we will probably get worse than 92 points pace before we can get better.

And this is assuming Horacek and Spott CAN turn the team around quickly. This is the part where good teams don't want to replace their coach mid-season. It is very difficult to change the system (or lack of it) when you have games every 2-3 days, you have injuries, and you are limited in drills and practices you can run cause players have to prep for games.

Thats a load of crap. The Devils fired Ftorek with like 9 games left and won the cup. You don't need 82 games and a training camp for a coach to have an impact.

Yes there will be an adjustment period. But the season isn't even half over.

All that really matters though is seeing improvement from the team, and there are more than enough games left for that to happen. If the Leafs continue to bottom out the rest of the year it won't be because of Carlyle.

hockeylover
01-06-2015, 02:58 PM
No one is saying it was the right decision. It just wasn't a huge mistake that is all that impactful at the end of the day, or worth the endless criticism of Shanahan for the past 6 months, because he managed it properly. Which is all I said from the begining, that its not that big of a deal, and wouldn't have dire consequences. And it wasn't, and didn't.

No one makes the right decision every single time. The important part is recognizing when you didn't and reacting quickly enough. Shanny handled this better than any of our last handful of GM's handled their coaches.

I don't think that's all you said. You seemed to legitimately think Carlyle could change.

leafman101
01-06-2015, 03:03 PM
I don't think that's all you said. You seemed to legitimately think Carlyle could change.

Well yeah of course he could change. Anyone could. Good coaches do all the time.

Deckie007
01-06-2015, 03:06 PM
Well yeah of course he could change. Anyone could. Good coaches do all the time.

So...that's a no then?

leafman101
01-06-2015, 03:16 PM
Here it was a resounding no.

He could still change. Thats on him though. Hockey is just like real life. They are all people. If you are struggling at your job could you get better at it? Of course, why not?

Montana
01-06-2015, 03:26 PM
Yeah, the question "can a coach change" was always a silly one.....of course they can. The question is will they.


In Carlyle's case.....he didn't, and appropriately lost his job as a result.

BeLeafer
01-06-2015, 08:29 PM
Ah, the resident expert of picking gnat shit out of pepper speaks!

Bleedsblue&white
01-06-2015, 08:31 PM
I just made pepper-steak dinner...is there something I should know?

BeLeafer
01-06-2015, 08:34 PM
Just call Montana.

Volcanologist
01-06-2015, 08:36 PM
http://static.rogerebert.com/redactor_assets/pictures/far-flung-correspondents/a-psychopath-and-the-female-gaze/american_psycho_old-phone.jpg

Montana
01-06-2015, 09:18 PM
love it.

mbow30
01-07-2015, 12:08 AM
Hiring a better coach this coming offseason, than we would have last offseason.....would offset any 'mistake' they made by keeping Carlyle, for me personally.

If Babcock or Deboer end up being our guy, I'll be fine with us having had to keep Carlyle around a few months longer than was ideal.

Especially if there weren't any coaches available that they were in love with last summer.

putting all that aside, they hired carlyle because he has been an immensely successful coach throughout his coaching career. what message does it send to prospective hires if you turf the guy because of a bad finish during his second season with the team - one year after he guided them to the playoffs?

good luck getting babcock to sign up for what is clearly a long-term project when he knows, going into it, that if immediate results aren't there the team will let him go?

zeke
01-07-2015, 12:09 AM
Didn't stop the Canucks from turfing "immensely successful" torts after one season.

zeke
01-07-2015, 12:12 AM
Maurice made a cup finals too. We turfed him after year two.

hockeylover
01-07-2015, 12:15 AM
putting all that aside, they hired carlyle because he has been an immensely successful coach throughout his coaching career. what message does it send to prospective hires if you turf the guy because of a bad finish during his second season with the team - one year after he guided them to the playoffs?

good luck getting babcock to sign up for what is clearly a long-term project when he knows, going into it, that if immediate results aren't there the team will let him go?

I'm okay with the sending the message that if your team gives up a nearly historically bad number of shots against, you'll probably get canned too?

mbow30
01-07-2015, 12:15 AM
an immensely successful coach who joined a team that hadn't missed the playoffs in five seasons and missed the playoffs, and who had such serious friction with the team's star forwards that a couple of perennial ppg players (and they're right back there this year) combined for just 97 points....

the team totally fell apart and he was the only factor that changed from 12-13 to 13-14.

not to mention the fact that they cleared out the entire front office.

BeLeafer
01-07-2015, 12:16 AM
You would think the reason they didn't can him after last season was that they didn't have desirable options for a replacement. But they also extended him for another 2 years. You have to think they thought he could turn it around. I mean, this GM thought Clarkson was a good deal and tried to throw a similar contract at Bolland.

mbow30
01-07-2015, 12:18 AM
Maurice made a cup finals too. We turfed him after year two.

Paul Maurice's teams have made the playoffs 4 times in a 17 year coaching career.

mbow30
01-07-2015, 12:19 AM
You would think the reason they didn't can him after last season was that they didn't have desirable options for a replacement. But they also extended him for another 2 years. You have to think they thought he could turn it around. I mean, this GM thought Clarkson was a good deal and tried to throw a similar contract at Bolland.

they gave him one year plus an option.

it just avoided the lame duck distraction.

Deckie007
01-07-2015, 12:21 AM
I still think it was a golden handshake. Nonnis knew he probably wouldn't last to the end of the contract and took care of him. Dude is 58, he's probably not getting another gig after this disaster.

BeLeafer
01-07-2015, 12:25 AM
they gave him one year plus an option.

it just avoided the lame duck distraction.

Ah, I wasn't sure ... I thought I'd heard 2 + option.

hockeylover
01-07-2015, 12:27 AM
So if I'm misinterpreted, feel free to correct me mbow, but it almost seems like you're suggesting that the Leafs firing Carlyle is unfair in some way...? Or that prospective hires should find it unfair.