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OT: The Official Toronto Raptors Thread

Yeah he brought that up near the end of the season and I chose to ignore it. Derozan out and Kawhi+Green in makes a massive difference, but the key for me is whether or not Nurse becomes fixated with a consistent approach like Casey when it comes to starting lineup / bench. This team has a ton of ways they can mix and match lineups, there's no need for simple units anymore. It's looking like they'll start the season with Ibaka at the 4 which is fine, but they should change that up as the season goes along (Ibaka's a C defensively in today's game). With Derozan gone, those two on the court at the same time vs. small teams is the only true weakness that I can see defensively. Celtics and Sixers could expose that come playoff time.
 
I kinda like changing your starting lineup based on your opposition. Why bother with the artificial distinction of starts and bench? Just optimize your match ups. Obviously Leonard and Lowry will likely start every game, but beyond that, who cares.
 
I think this is also a testament to Casey's inability to manage in game situations. We saw it a lot during the season where the opposition would get a P/R situation they liked and ram it down the Raptors throat for a long stretch of time with no adjustments at all from Casey. Just look at the difference between how we defended Clevelands Lebron led P/R game, giving away open corner 3's constantly to Korver and whoever else, and then how Brad Stevens handled that in the following round with the novel switching and rotation he had his defence doing to close those gaps.

So his defence worked against mediocre and shit offences, but when a good offence came through, he didn't adapt the plan at all. It was the same defensive scheme all ****ing year. Yeah, the better coached and more talented offences are going to figure that shit out and torch it. You need to be able to manage change within a game to win at the highest levels in the NBA. Pop isn't a legend because he dreamt up a strong system 20 yrs ago and has stuck with it stubbornly. He's a ****ing stud because his system is and always has been so flexible.
 
MindzEye said:
I think this is also a testament to Casey's inability to manage in game situations. We saw it a lot during the season where the opposition would get a P/R situation they liked and ram it down the Raptors throat for a long stretch of time with no adjustments at all from Casey. Just look at the difference between how we defended Clevelands Lebron led P/R game, giving away open corner 3's constantly to Korver and whoever else, and then how Brad Stevens handled that in the following round with the novel switching and rotation he had his defence doing to close those gaps.

So his defence worked against mediocre and shit offences, but when a good offence came through, he didn't adapt the plan at all. It was the same defensive scheme all ****ing year. Yeah, the better coached and more talented offences are going to figure that shit out and torch it. You need to be able to manage change within a game to win at the highest levels in the NBA. Pop isn't a legend because he dreamt up a strong system 20 yrs ago and has stuck with it stubbornly. He's a ****ing stud because his system is and always has been so flexible.
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Top shelf post :worshippy:

Was never a Casey fan watching that same iso play that never worked and he was too stubborn to adjust .

His use of JV when he was killing it by half time was beyond annoying in some games
 
GEEMAN said:
Top shelf post :worshippy:

Was never a Casey fan watching that same iso play that never worked and he was too stubborn to adjust.
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One of, if not the most damning aspects of Casey's tenure here is just how much the offence improved when it was taken away from him and given to Nick Nurse, and how the weakest part of the offence continued being late clock situations where Casey just called Demar's number and let him play hero ball.

I expect the same to be said this year when we see how much our D improves. Kawhi will deserve a portion of the credit, but we had a legit high end defensive stopper covering opposition best all year last year as well. The biggest difference is going to be in scheme. I don't see Nurse just allowing opposition offences to pick on the Lowry/Val combo in P/R situations. There will be a lot more attempts to deny the screener, a lot more high hedging, and a lot more switching between Val and Siakam down low instead of waiting passively as the offence sets up their P/R. Casey's answer for all of that to frown at Val and stubbornly stick with it. To him it was Val's failure, and not his own. Nurse is going to show us the lie in that this year. Val will never be a good P/R defender, he just doesn't have the mobility for it. But the defence can be athletic and adaptable enough to cover that up better, so that Val can be used to hammer defences at the other end, where he's incredibly effective.

His use of JV when he was killing it by half time was beyond annoying in some games
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He decided long ago that he didn't like Val, that Val didn't fit his system, etc. I can buy the "molder of men" angle for why he's a good coach. Demar and Lowry developed well under him, absolutely. But as an X's and O's coach he was horrific.
 
MindzEye said:
One of, if not the most damning aspects of Casey's tenure here is just how much the offence improved when it was taken away from him and given to Nick Nurse, and how the weakest part of the offence continued being late clock situations where Casey just called Demar's number and let him play hero ball.

I expect the same to be said this year when we see how much our D improves. Kawhi will deserve a portion of the credit, but we had a legit high end defensive stopper covering opposition best all year last year as well. The biggest difference is going to be in scheme. I don't see Nurse just allowing opposition offences to pick on the Lowry/Val combo in P/R situations. There will be a lot more attempts to deny the screener, a lot more high hedging, and a lot more switching between Val and Siakam down low instead of waiting passively as the offence sets up their P/R. Casey's answer for all of that to frown at Val and stubbornly stick with it. To him it was Val's failure, and not his own. Nurse is going to show us the lie in that this year. Val will never be a good P/R defender, he just doesn't have the mobility for it. But the defence can be athletic and adaptable enough to cover that up better, so that Val can be used to hammer defences at the other end, where he's incredibly effective.

He decided long ago that he didn't like Val, that Val didn't fit his system, etc. I can buy the "molder of men" angle for why he's a good coach. Demar and Lowry developed well under him, absolutely. But as an X's and O's coach he was horrific.
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There's a certain stubborn Toronto coach in another sport that has a lot of similarities with that Casey fella. As for Nurse, looks like he's already doing the work trying to figure out how to keep Val from getting torched vs. ball-handlers on PnR. Like you said, it might not be possible to make Val "good" at guarding them, but even just going from unplayable to below average would be a huge difference-maker.

Quote from Doug Smith's article:

The other side of Valanciunas’s game — defence — also needs some work and needs to continue to improve as it has in the past couple of years. In the constantly changing NBA, a big man has to be able to guard all kinds of different opponents in all kinds of different schemes: switching pick and rolls, getting out to contest corner three-pointers, being able to protect the rim and close off paths to the basket for attacking guards.

The demands are endless and Valanciunas has plenty left to master. Nurse knows that, his staff knows that, and there’s a method to some of their training camp madness.

“I am hoping to give him more chances to defend different people,” Nurse said. “He’s got to be able to guard more than just the five (other post players) in today’s NBA game.

“You guys know we have a one-on-one tournament every day. That isn’t just for the offensive guys. That’s for guys like J.V. to have continual reps of playing against Kyle (Lowry) and Fred (VanVleet) and Norm (Powell) and guys he could end up on.”
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https://www.thestar.com/sports/raptors/2018/09/27/jonas-valanciunas-at-the-centre-of-raptors-offence.html
 
madvillain said:
There's a certain stubborn Toronto coach in another sport that has a lot of similarities with that Casey fella. As for Nurse, looks like he's already doing the work trying to figure out how to keep Val from getting torched vs. ball-handlers on PnR. Like you said, it might not be possible to make Val "good" at guarding them, but even just going from unplayable to below average would be a huge difference-maker.

Quote from Doug Smith's article:



https://www.thestar.com/sports/raptors/2018/09/27/jonas-valanciunas-at-the-centre-of-raptors-offence.html
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I've thought about the similarities between Casey and Babcock and there's one core difference. Babcock's stubbornness is attached to over coaching. He wants his choice of players in every situation, to the point of over coaching (like we saw last year, we actually had slightly better results without the last change than we had with it). Casey was a chronic under coacher though, which unless you're running Lebron with legit options, or the Warriors, just doesn't fly in the NBA.
 
MindzEye said:
I've thought about the similarities between Casey and Babcock and there's one core difference. Babcock's stubbornness is attached to over coaching. He wants his choice of players in every situation, to the point of over coaching (like we saw last year, we actually had slightly better results without the last change than we had with it). Casey was a chronic under coacher though, which unless you're running Lebron with legit options, or the Warriors, just doesn't fly in the NBA.
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Each of them have one win. Casey beats LeBron when on the Mavs, LeBron adjusts vs. the Raps yet Casey sticks to the same script over and over. Babcock's obsession with "gud pros". It's different, but it's that generic stubbornness born out of some success. Might be a little harsh on Babcock as he does have a better resume in his sport, but he's kind of treated like he's the NHL version of Poppovich/Belicheck success when his two other accomplishments are the two Olympic Gold Medals. I have more faith in Babcock, but this season is a big test for him.
 
madvillain said:
Each of them have one win. Casey beats LeBron when on the Mavs, LeBron adjusts vs. the Raps yet Casey sticks to the same script over and over. Babcock's obsession with "gud pros". It's different, but it's that generic stubbornness born out of some success. Might be a little harsh on Babcock as he does have a better resume in his sport, but he's kind of treated like he's the NHL version of Poppovich/Belicheck success when his two other accomplishments are the two Olympic Gold Medals. I have more faith in Babcock, but this season is a big test for him.
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Well, in fairness, Lebron didn't "adjust" later on. He was dreadful against the Mavs and was just never dreadful again. Second is that Casey was the assistant in Dallas and not the coach. He built a defensive scheme that on autopilot with just okay defensive personnel was a top 10 defence, there's not a damn thing wrong with that. But when he was in the big chair, he showed a distinct inability to adapt and manage in game situations.

I think Babcock's reputation has largely come from his ability to get a lot of out just okay rosters. There's the cup and the internatonal success, which doesn't hurt his profile at all, but he's credited with getting a lot out of a middling group in Anaheim. Then he won with studs in Detroit, but the studs got old and went away, and Babcock's group remained competitive for longer than they probably should have (people were screaming about an impending rebuild in Detroit for years but they never fell apart, always made the playoffs regardless of what was on the ice). Then he came to Toronto, turned a group of misfit toys into about as good a team as they possibily could have been, and has developed every young player of note into impact guys since his arrival. He's not Pop or BB, but I don't think hockey has an analogue for those two. It's really hard to argue that Babcock isn't a top 3-5 coach in the NHL.

I see this era of NHL hockey as the last throws of the old guard, very similar to what 10 years ago was like in the NBA. Where there were still a lot of old guard coaches with huge reputations kicking around, who were more or less rejecting what the analytics were saying about how the NBA game was changing. Now? It's getting harder and harder for coaches to get or keep jobs without bowing down to the importance of space, ball movement, and 3 point shooting. We'll see NHL clubs do the same over the next 10 years imo. As a coach, you'll either buy in to the value of puck possession, shooting from high percentage areas, speed and skill, or you'll have a difficult time getting or keeping jobs.
 
MindzEye said:
Well, in fairness, Lebron didn't "adjust" later on. He was dreadful against the Mavs and was just never dreadful again. Second is that Casey was the assistant in Dallas and not the coach. He built a defensive scheme that on autopilot with just okay defensive personnel was a top 10 defence, there's not a damn thing wrong with that. But when he was in the big chair, he showed a distinct inability to adapt and manage in game situations.

I think Babcock's reputation has largely come from his ability to get a lot of out just okay rosters. There's the cup and the internatonal success, which doesn't hurt his profile at all, but he's credited with getting a lot out of a middling group in Anaheim. Then he won with studs in Detroit, but the studs got old and went away, and Babcock's group remained competitive for longer than they probably should have (people were screaming about an impending rebuild in Detroit for years but they never fell apart, always made the playoffs regardless of what was on the ice). Then he came to Toronto, turned a group of misfit toys into about as good a team as they possibily could have been, and has developed every young player of note into impact guys since his arrival. He's not Pop or BB, but I don't think hockey has an analogue for those two. It's really hard to argue that Babcock isn't a top 3-5 coach in the NHL.

I see this era of NHL hockey as the last throws of the old guard, very similar to what 10 years ago was like in the NBA. Where there were still a lot of old guard coaches with huge reputations kicking around, who were more or less rejecting what the analytics were saying about how the NBA game was changing. Now? It's getting harder and harder for coaches to get or keep jobs without bowing down to the importance of space, ball movement, and 3 point shooting. We'll see NHL clubs do the same over the next 10 years imo. As a coach, you'll either buy in to the value of puck possession, shooting from high percentage areas, speed and skill, or you'll have a difficult time getting or keeping jobs.
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And to Casey’s credit, he’s in the same boat of getting the best out of his talent when it comes to winning in the regular season. There’s value in that. A team like the Wizards, with similar talent level the last few years, have routinely been projected as the team that’s got next. They could have easily been a perennial 50+ win team if coached by Casey. And as much as he’s touted as a defensive coach with old-school habits, Raps have used analytics to prop up the offense to top 5 levels in different ways. ISO-heavy in 2015 to ball movement heavy last season (which might not have been his choice, but still).
 
DoTglsEVsAA-lat


Ben Falk
✔
@bencfalk
I count 6 non-paint twos out of 69 shots so far for Toronto. ��

9:19 PM - Sep 29, 2018
 
Group in Quebec wants to bring an NBA franchise to Montreal. Would like to see that and a team back in Vancity too.


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