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OT: The Official Toronto Raptors Thread

And really, it's not just my pre-determined belief about these players. Pretty silly to insinuate that I'm the only one that would disagree with Zeke on this. But hey, you have already determined that I don't watch hockey outside of the Leafs so who am I to argue with you?
 
leaffan2005 said:
Plain and simple Kyrie is a better offensive player. He has defensive short-comings but Lowry himself isn't an elite defensive player. He also has a history of stepping up his game in the playoffs whereas the opposite is true of Kyle.

But getting back to my last question, I assume you are arguing now that Lowry is better than Durant? That's your stance? If so, I'll just politely remove myself from this conversation.

Your hard-on for exclusive stats-based analysis is truly amazing.
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remove yourself if you want.

But yes, I will argue that Lowry has been as or more valuable as Durant on the court during the regular season the last 2yrs, but I am also comfortable saying that Durant and the rest of the warriors don't play anywhere near 100% during the regular season anymore.

the raps won 59gms with super elite underlying numbers for a reason.
 
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leaffan2005 said:
And really, it's not just my pre-determined belief about these players. Pretty silly to insinuate that I'm the only one that would disagree with Zeke on this. But hey, you have already determined that I don't watch hockey outside of the Leafs so who am I to argue with you?
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Your passive aggressive bullshit never fails to put a smile on my face. It's the first thing to turn to whenever someone hurts your feelings by disagreeing with your take on things.

Why would I care that you're not the only one who would disagree with Zeke on this? If you're wrong about this (and to be clear, I've only said that this specific statistics suggests you are), then they would also be wrong about this. That their opinion exists, is not an interesting piece of information to counter the claims made by Zeke. For the record, my reflex belief here is that like any statistic, there are strengths and weaknesses buried within the methodology. The conversation that would interest me here is in pulling apart RPM and laying it's strengths and weaknesses on the table, then seeing how those could possibly apply to the players who look like outliers. Because I would admit that Durant not being ranked that high, and Lowry ranking that high, appears like an outlier situation.
 
zeke said:
I gotta say maybe the most surprising revelation for me thru 2gms, even more than Ibaka last night, is that Green seems to be the old Green.

I thought he was a completely washed up throw in. But it sure likes he wasn't lying when he was saying he was injured all last year. Spurs medical staff not looking so good right now.

I thought he might be a decent bit player off the bench, but he's playing like a legit starter, and a good one. and a perfect fit in the starting lineup. his start might be the most exciting development so far.
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Yeah, Green has looked awesome and he's almost exactly what that top unit needed. I dig OG, but he's not that level yet offensively. Green legit has that type of quick trigger that can carry a team offensively when he's on and getting open looks. Creates space at the absolute minimum when he's not getting those looks.

Shoe game is serious too.
 
This is the one, single thing that Kyrie is maybe, arguably better than Kyle at. The ONLY thing:


Scoring Last 2yrs:

Kyle: 34.5mpg, 19.0ppg, 13.4fgapg, 56.5efg%, 61.4ts%
Kyrie: 33.7mpg, 24.7ppg, 19.0fgapg, 54.7efg%, 59.1ts%

that's it. That is Kyrie's one supposed advantage over Kyle - which revolves entirely around the fact that Kyrie takes 40% more shots to score 30% more points.


and in case you think Kyle would suffer if he took more shots, best scoring season:

Kyle '17: 22.4ppg, 15.3fgapg, 56.9efg%, 62.3ts%
Kyrie '18: 24.4ppg, 18.1fgapg, 56.8efg%, 61.0ts%


rememebering that this is literally the only area of the game in which Kyrie is even comparable to Kyle.
 
as for just looking at one single stat, here's the other all-around stats we have available:


last 2yrs + this year (rank of min 30mpg players)

win shares per 48min

1.Paul .264
2.Harden .264
3.Kawhi .255
4.Durant .245
5.Curry .244
6.Gobert .235
7.Butler .221
8.Davis .221
9.James .220
10.Jokic .219
11.Towns .213
12.Lowry .207
13.Giannis .207
14.Lillard .205
15.Jordan .203
16.hayward .197
17.Westbrook .194
18.Kyrie .190
19.Conley .189
20.Aldridge 179


or Box Plus Minus:

1.Westbrook 11.8
2.Harden 10.5
3.James 9.0
4.Paul 7.9
5.Curry 7.8
6.Jokic 7.7
7.Kawhi 7.4
8.Giannis 6.7
9.Durant 6.7
10.Lowry 6.3
11.Butler 6.2
12.Cousins 6.1
13.Lillard 5.5
14.Gobert 5.2
15.Towns 5.1
16.Davis 4.6
17.Simmons 4.6
18.Conley 4.5
19.Green 4.2
20.Hayward 4.1
21.Kyrie 4.0



Now RPM is by far the most statistically rigorous of those numbers, so I would lean towards that one, but whatever the measure of all-around game you prefer to look at, they all agree that Kyle is significantly better than Kyrie.
 
Lowry only feels under rated imo, if you over rated Demar. The Raptors have been really good for a few years and the media told you Demar was a star and that's why the Raptors were good. Some people argued though that Lowry and Val were under rated, and Demar was over rated. That the Raptors were a perennial 50+ win team because Lowry-Val-Demar (in that order) was a really good core.

Shit, I remember arguing during our "blow it up" conversations this summer that Lowry had way more value than a lot of people were assuming and should be easily moved for good value despite his contract.

Even my calling him part of the 2nd tier of PG's in the league might have been under valuing his overall impact.
 
leaffan2005 said:
Shall we bring up playoff stats?
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Sure, but I'm not sure what the argument is. If Kyrie was better in the playoffs, then Kyrie was better in the playoffs. If anything, taking that route would validate Zeke's argument about the regular season numbers, no?
 
MindzEye said:
Sure, but I'm not sure what the argument is. If Kyrie was better in the playoffs, then Kyrie was better in the playoffs. If anything, taking that route would validate Zeke's argument about the regular season numbers, no?
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Not really.

Zeke claimed Lowry was a better player overall. I consider playoff performance a part of player evaluation. Especially when one of the players suffers repeated playoff failures both individually and with his team.
 
leaffan2005 said:
Not really.

Zeke claimed Lowry was a better player overall. I consider playoff performance a part of player evaluation. Especially when one of the players suffers repeated playoff failures both individually and with his team.
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Fwiw, over the last 2 years, their playoff numbers are similar. Until we see what Kyrie looks like outside of Lebron's gravity, I don't know how much stock I want to put in Kyrie's past playoff performances. The Lebron effect is real if you gel with his style of play. Very real. Kyrie was a stud in the 2016 playoffs, can't ever take that away from him. I don't know if that's the "real" Kyrie that we can expect in the future though.
 
Lowry is a pimp. Beal was torching the Raps, brought it within a 6 minute game with 3:30 left by himself. Lowry draws a charge on Beal on what would have been a lay up, then goes down the other end and sticks a dagger 3 in their ass.
 
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