Page 4357 of 4382 FirstFirst ... 33573857425743074347435543564357435843594367 ... LastLast
Results 87,121 to 87,140 of 87632

Thread: OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

  1. #87121
    Legend axlsalinger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Paradise City
    Posts
    41,179
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

    I quoted you, but was talking generally as people are acting like the Jays are imbeciles for doing this, when in fact it happens a lot. I agree with you in that he's not your average top prospect, and a reasonable argument can actually be made either way. Though I really don't think having him play a few games this year is going to impact his development.

    I do hate the "who cares about the money" argument, though. Of course fans don't care but if you can save $40 million dollars in any business it's foolish not to consider it. It's possible they call him up in September, but most likely he will probably be sent down next season for the first 2 weeks and called up in mid-April.
    “When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty.”

    "We watch, and we are always here."

  2. #87122
    Legend
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    60,898
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

    You don't actually save any money though. You just lose a year of having Vlad in the majors. Now his career is just a year shorter. He will get paid one way or the other. Whether year 7 of his career is 2024 or 2025 doesn't make his career any cheaper.

    The only benefit, is in theory, the Jays may be a better team in 2024 than they are now and so you would rather use the cheap year on a good team than a bad team. But those are his arbitration years anyway, so its not like he'd actually be cheap. If he is as good as it looks like that won't be a cheap year. Just a slightly cheaper year. And that is only if you let him go through arbitration years without signing him to a long term deal. And you have to hope thats not how they handle Vlad's contract if he is as good as he looks like. That is how you end up in a situation like Washington is now with Harper, potentially losing him for nothing.

    For example, if you sign Vlad to a Trout deal in 2 years, which is the prudent move, than keeping him down this year was completely meaningless. If Vlad is a legit superstar then you want to lock him up through his arbitration years and buy up some FA years.

  3. #87123
    Legend
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    60,898
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

    The argument makes sense when you are talking about most prospects.

    But for franchise changing building blocks? Its a different set of rules. You do not need to put off those decisions. You want to get them in and get them locked up as long as possible. Not screw them around for the minimum and then take them to arby every year and then let them walk to the Yankees or Sox.

  4. #87124
    Legend LeafGm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    48,480
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

    Another thing to take into consideration is managing the relationship with the player.

    I mean, how exactly is Vlad going to feel about the organization if they hold him completely out of the majors this year when he's mashing AA & AAA to a historic degree, and if they nickle-and-dime him to the maximum extent through his arbitration/cheap controllable years? Especially considering Shatkins & ownership have already jettisoned essentially all of the front office guys that built a relationship with him & his family and convinced him to sign in Toronto in the first place?
    I’ll trade five ordinary players for one great player any day. You can always find ordinary players.” - Conn Smythe

  5. #87125
    Wayward Ditch Pig MindzEye's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    The Dirty North
    Posts
    89,044
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

    Quote Originally Posted by axlsalinger View Post
    I quoted you, but was talking generally as people are acting like the Jays are imbeciles for doing this, when in fact it happens a lot. I agree with you in that he's not your average top prospect, and a reasonable argument can actually be made either way. Though I really don't think having him play a few games this year is going to impact his development.

    I do hate the "who cares about the money" argument, though. Of course fans don't care but if you can save $40 million dollars in any business it's foolish not to consider it. It's possible they call him up in September, but most likely he will probably be sent down next season for the first 2 weeks and called up in mid-April.
    I think the argument is that if you create goodwill now, and pay him early as opposed to grinding him through every layer of arbitration, you can save money later. As LM pointed out, Mike Trout is the poster child for that. It started in 2014 when Trout could have been pushed into taking the league minimum in a pre arby year and the Angels paid him double that just because, then the following year Trout signed away 4 years of free agency in a 20 million a year extension. Had the Angels taken the more "traditional" route he would have been paid out something similar to this:

    11: .4
    12: .5
    13: .5
    14: .5
    15: Arby - 4
    16: Arby - 10
    17: Arby - 15
    18: Free Agent - 40+ x 10

    Instead, the Angels paid him

    11: .4
    12: .5
    13: .5
    14: 1.0
    15: 5.2
    16: 15.2
    17: 19.2
    18: 33.2
    19: 33.2
    20: 33.2

    So they paid him an extra 11.2 million between 14-17 and it's likely saved them at least 10 million dollars between 2018-2020, it's also saved them the possibility of him simply not being there between 2018 & 2020. The Angels also brought him up and started his clock when Trout was having a significantly lesser season to what Vladdy is having right now. When you have a prospect of this calibre, you don't treat them like you treat other prospects, even other elite prospects (notice that I'm not making this argument for Bichette despite their being at least an okay argument in support of him being one of our best MI options on the big club right now). Vladdy is different, treat him different.
    The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude larger than is required to produce it.

  6. #87126
    1st Liner
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    1,343
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

    What sucks for the Jays is their best player is virtually untradeable(Donaldson) and their best pitcher ain't pitching.... And cannot be traded either. This team can possibly sucks for years. Really sucks.

  7. #87127
    Legend
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    60,898
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

    Compare how the Nationals handled Harper vs how the Angles handled Trout. The Nationals saved about $40 million over the last 4 years by being cute with the CBA, but the Angels will end up with at least an extra 3 years out of Trout, by simply playing and paying their best player. And Trout will likely be a steal over the next 2 years compared to whatever, whoever is paying Harper.
    Last edited by leafman101; 08-10-2018 at 03:57 PM.

  8. #87128
    Wayward Ditch Pig MindzEye's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    The Dirty North
    Posts
    89,044
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

    So basically, if we're projecting that Vlad is going to be a 35+ million dollar baseball player when he's done his 6/7 years of service, work the numbers out on what he'll cost through his first cheap 3/4 and then his 3 arby years and then through his FA years and just buy the whole bag of them at once. I'd rather buy his arby and a couple free agent years for ~20 million like the Angels did with Trout than dick him around to save a few bucks between years 1-7 and risk losing him when he's 26-27. If you want a case study, look at the difference between the O's with Machado and the Angels with Trout.
    The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude larger than is required to produce it.

  9. #87129
    Wayward Ditch Pig MindzEye's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    The Dirty North
    Posts
    89,044
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

    Quote Originally Posted by Iknowenuff View Post
    What sucks for the Jays is their best player is virtually untradeable(Donaldson) and their best pitcher ain't pitching.... And cannot be traded either. This team can possibly sucks for years. Really sucks.
    Meh, if you have a clear direction, a decent farm system and a decent budget, rebuilding in MLB is easier than it is in any other north american sport. For example, had Shatkins shown marbles a couple of years ago and decided to rebuild when it was clear that a rebuild was coming, traded off what they could (at the time we would have received premium assets in return), cut payroll to stash for later use (like what Houston did), we would be looking at rolling multiple elite prospects into the roster over the next 2-3 years, with the ability to make a major free agency splash.

    Shatkins just decided to give us the worst of both worlds because they have no balls. No balls to go for it, and no balls to aggressively rebuild. They're a mushy middle management group who are up against sharks.
    The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude larger than is required to produce it.

  10. #87130
    Legend UWHabs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    16,785
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

    Quote Originally Posted by leafman101 View Post
    Compare how the Nationals handled Harper vs how the Angles handled Trout. The Nationals saved about $40 million over the last 4 years by being cute with the CBA, but the Angels will end up with at least an extra 3 years out of Trout, by simply playing and paying their best player.
    Yeah, there's definitely something to be said for not worrying too too much about what life will be like in 6 years. I mean, even if he goes FA instead of having him in his last arbitration year, it's not like that move is worth 40M - it's only worth the difference between what you pay him in free agency vs a 4th arbitration.

    Now, there definitely was something to be said this year keeping him down past June - that change saved him from going through arbitration one year sooner, which is basically 4-5M or more a year for 4 years. But yeah, whether you called him up today, vs calling him up in April next year, the only difference is whether we have that extra year of team control on him. And it might not even matter if you can get the Trout-like deal that eats a couple years of free agency too.

    Like personally, I would go to him and basically have him name a price to get him inked for 8+ years. 8 years/100M? Basically pays him about 50M for the 6 years pre-FA, and then about 25M a year for his first 2 free agency years. Maybe he would still turn that down, but man, I think it would be exceedingly tough for a 19-20 year old kid to turn away a 100M guarantee, and he'd still hit FA as a 28 year old, so still a great chance to cash in again later. And then you don't worry about service days, you can just have him up and mashing right now.

  11. #87131
    Legend UWHabs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    16,785
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

    Quote Originally Posted by MindzEye View Post
    Meh, if you have a clear direction, a decent farm system and a decent budget, rebuilding in MLB is easier than it is in any other north american sport. For example, had Shatkins shown marbles a couple of years ago and decided to rebuild when it was clear that a rebuild was coming, traded off what they could (at the time we would have received premium assets in return), cut payroll to stash for later use (like what Houston did), we would be looking at rolling multiple elite prospects into the roster over the next 2-3 years, with the ability to make a major free agency splash.

    Shatkins just decided to give us the worst of both worlds because they have no balls. No balls to go for it, and no balls to aggressively rebuild. They're a mushy middle management group who are up against sharks.
    Yep - the time to go all in was our window a few years ago, when Boston and NYY were down temporarily. I'll admit it would have been really tough to sell after the 2016 season coming off back to back playoff appearances, but by summer 2017 they really should have noticed the writing on the wall. Imagine the return for Donaldson last summer, or even this last winter, and instead we're going to be stuck getting like a 3rd round pick for him when he rejects the QO, or maybe a crappy prospect if we sneak him through August waivers.

  12. #87132
    Wayward Ditch Pig MindzEye's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    The Dirty North
    Posts
    89,044
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

    Quote Originally Posted by UWHabs View Post
    Yep - the time to go all in was our window a few years ago, when Boston and NYY were down temporarily. I'll admit it would have been really tough to sell after the 2016 season coming off back to back playoff appearances, but by summer 2017 they really should have noticed the writing on the wall. Imagine the return for Donaldson last summer, or even this last winter, and instead we're going to be stuck getting like a 3rd round pick for him when he rejects the QO, or maybe a crappy prospect if we sneak him through August waivers.
    JD, Smoak, Pillar, Happ, Estrada, and a bunch of veteran spare parts all could have been fired out of the cannon in 2017 for premium prices.

    The organization would be in much better shape today, and the team on the field would be barely any worse.
    The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude larger than is required to produce it.

  13. #87133
    Legend worm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    edmonton
    Posts
    69,259
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

    i saw trade vladdy now

    that is the cheapest method
    ...

  14. #87134
    Wayward Ditch Pig MindzEye's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    The Dirty North
    Posts
    89,044
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

    Quote Originally Posted by worm View Post
    i saw trade vladdy now

    that is the cheapest method
    You know how many 1.5 WAR middle infielders and #4-5 starters we could get for him? ****ing wow, we would be able to field a 82 win team for like, 70 million dollars, easily.

    #TheClevelandPlan
    The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude larger than is required to produce it.

  15. #87135
    The Artist Formerly Known as chiggins. CH1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    42,998
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

    Just sign Vlad to a Gretzky type deal.

    $225 M for 15 yrs.
    Some GMs get you to the playoffs and some GMs get you through the playoffs.

  16. #87136
    Wayward Ditch Pig MindzEye's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    The Dirty North
    Posts
    89,044
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

    Sounds kind of risky to me....
    The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude larger than is required to produce it.

  17. #87137
    Legend
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    44,085
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

    Quote Originally Posted by MindzEye View Post
    Sounds kind of risky to me....
    there is a computer print out on the way indicating how risky

  18. #87138
    Legend zeke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    78,358
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

    another dinger.

    vladdy is intent on embarassing shapkins spectacularly.

    I love it.
    #FreeVladdy

  19. #87139
    Legend
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    44,085
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

    Quote Originally Posted by zeke View Post
    another dinger.

    vladdy is intent on embarassing shapkins spectacularly.

    I love it.
    but how's his defence?

  20. #87140
    Legend
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    20,247
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

    Quote Originally Posted by UWHabs View Post
    Yep - the time to go all in was our window a few years ago, when Boston and NYY were down temporarily. I'll admit it would have been really tough to sell after the 2016 season coming off back to back playoff appearances, but by summer 2017 they really should have noticed the writing on the wall. Imagine the return for Donaldson last summer, or even this last winter, and instead we're going to be stuck getting like a 3rd round pick for him when he rejects the QO, or maybe a crappy prospect if we sneak him through August waivers.
    There is no way Rogers would approve a gut job when that cash register was shitting dollars by the bushel. I think Shats was in full blown gut mode if he had his way . There was no doubt this team was done starting the 2017 season .

Page 4357 of 4382 FirstFirst ... 33573857425743074347435543564357435843594367 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •