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OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

They re signed Jose the same winter they signed Morales and Pearce.

When you allocate 40 million dollars and receive something in the range of 0 WAR, you have no one to blame for your team being shit.
Yeah, they badly f-ed up that winter. Literally burning the money might have given us more production than those guys did. Wish they hadn't misread the market and jumped on Morales, but the team was also in enough trouble that it didn't really matter what they used the 40m on it wasn't gonna be enough to get them to the playoffs.
 
Yeah, they badly f-ed up that winter. Literally burning the money might have given us more production than those guys did. Wish they hadn't misread the market and jumped on Morales, but the team was also in enough trouble that it didn't really matter what they used the 40m on it wasn't gonna be enough to get them to the playoffs.


Thats exactly what I am saying . If we had the Boston or Yankee stud young core in the pipeline plus all the $ in the world to spend then absolutely blame the GM .

This team was too old , there was nothing Shats could of pulled out of his arse to get to the WS .

He did what he could to buy time but there was no way our roster , farm system or free agency was going to save this team .
 
please. they spent $100m in annual payroll without even attempting to land a big fish. it's embarrassing.
 
the twins, the ****ing twins, have DFA'd Phil Hughes, eating 22M.....If these clowns don't do the same with Morales by the end of the month....so help me.
 
Yeah, they badly f-ed up that winter. Literally burning the money might have given us more production than those guys did. Wish they hadn't misread the market and jumped on Morales, but the team was also in enough trouble that it didn't really matter what they used the 40m on it wasn't gonna be enough to get them to the playoffs.

That's the thing...I don't really buy this, and I don't think it stands up to scrutiny.

So let's assume that you do away with just the wasteful spending on Bautista, Morales, and Peace. Let's also assume that you're trying to play the Shatkins game and be "risk averse" (which really means cheap, because they don't avoid risk at all).

Well, the first thing you can do is do what a bunch of us suggested as a Morales alternative at the time and sign Eric Thames as your DH. This comes with the bonus of him being able to field a position (sort of...he's something of a Greek tragedy in the OF, but functions when you're in a pinch). Is neutral value with his legs and turned into a legit stick while overseas (would have been our 3rd most valuable stick last season). Removed the negative value of his defence by plugging him into a DH role and he's a 3+ WAR player last season. That's a 4 win swing in replacing Morales with Thames. Also carried the bonus of being paid 4M last year. So we've got about 35m left to play with and we're probably an 80 win team.

Now we move on to Bautista & Pearce in the corners. There were a number of functional (and cheap) options that would have been an improvement on Bautista. I guess first is the required logic behind moving on from an icon. Showed huge decline between 15 and 16 including pretty significant decreases in power and contact rate, and a signficant increase in K%. Maybe we could have squeezed some extra high end baseball out of him had we moved him to DH a couple years before (he really did turn into a horrendous OF over the last few seasons he was here) but we didn't and the signs of decline were all over his 2016 season. That he was expecting to get paid was all the reason we needed to move on. 1.3 WAR 36 yr old demanding ~20 million to stay? We all love him, but hard pass. After ****ing up the Edwin situation though, Shatkins didn't want the bad press and panicked.

When we look at the options, the pretty obvious ones were Colby Rasmus & Brandon Moss. Both went in between 5-6.5 million, both had strong track records of being starters. Both of them were less than ideal, but functional and put up a total of 2.4 WAR, about a 3 win advantage over the Bautista-Pearce pairing. Now we're an 83 win team with 25 million to spend.

But then if we consider spending a bit of that money, Fowler & Reddick were both available and within the budget if we're not puking money away. Maybe we go hard at them, maybe we get both (we didn't even try by any account and money talks, so let's not play the navel gazing "they would never come here" bullshit game that gets brought out to support team Shatkins and their bargain bin hunting). Fowler & Reddick were worth 8 wins, so now we're at an 88 win club even with all the injuries. A few decent depth trades so that Goins & Barney aren't getting 800 PA's between them to the tune of a -1.0 WAR (you know, like the trades we finally made this off season for capable middle infielders like Solarte, Diaz, etc....let's not play the game that Goins wasn't a known negative going into the season), and we're a 90 win club even with some of our best players missing significant chunks of the season.


I have a hard time accepting that beating the Twins at 85 wins was some incredible achievement that nothing could have possibly been done by management to achieve. When you light big chunks of your payroll on fire, and keep known crap on your roster then yeah, but that's management and nothing to do with being "old" or whatever else.

But let's cut that last bit down the middle. Say we blow our brains out on one of Reddick/Fowler and land just one of them. Let's then say that we take a 1 year flyer on Rasmus/Moss or even Rajai Davis as the other OF. Then let's say we actually proactively protected the middle of our infield just to the point where we received replacement level value for them (instead of what Goins/Barney provided). None of these are crazy moves, and many of us were suggesting similar at the time.

That's an 86-87 win ballclub, and in the wild card. Maybe Shatkins even grows a pair at the deadline and adds pitching. Darvish didn't exactly cost a fortune (one fringe top 50 prospect and some stuff). The A's didn't exactly get a haul for Sonny Gray. A massive bucket of good relievers switch cities and a lot of them for less than you would expect as well.

I'm kind of stunned that anyone can look at the job they did and shrug their shoulders and give them a pass under some nonsense logic that "nothing could be done" when they worst part of the team was almost entirely their additions to it.

I'm wondering what exactly they've done, anywhere in their careers, to lead anyone to give them this type of pass. An 85 win team made the playoffs last year. Being an 86 win team really isn't ****ing hard, especially when you took over a 95 win team 2 years prior.
 
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Yeah, I was thinking of what it would take to get up to 88 or so - forgot that 85 was the 2nd wildcard. And yeah, had we spent better, we'd be getting close to 85. 40M on, say, EE, Reddick/Fowler, and Thames is a good 8 or so wins over what we got from that crop, which puts us close to the wildcard spot. But then you also have larger commitments to this year - yeah, Bautista was a horrible waste of money last year, but a big reason they gave him a shot was that it didn't saddle us for the future. If we had given all that money to EE+Fowler, we'd be complaining about why did we spend 35M a year for -1 WAR from them combined for the next few years. And I think you're looking at the wrong year on Moss - last year he was -0.5 WAR, and then was cut this year in spring and hasn't played yet, effectively done it seems.

But yeah, potentially the bigger f-up than their useless FA signings have been essentially the lack of any other moves with the team. Heck, even a couple moves last year like the Solarte/Grichuk/Diaz moves they did this year would have shown something. And it's still frustrating that they haven't really done anything to set the direction of the team. They plugged the holes on the bench this year, but left the rotation without depth. And again, maybe you can't expect that 4/5 of your starting rotation will completely shit the bed, but the fact that we don't even have 1 minor league starter able to come up with a spot start is just horrible.

I'm not just giving them a pass for last year's mess - it definitely affects things. But given that you couldn't exactly sell coming off back to back playoff rounds, they were in a shitty place with a team clearly on the down. I'm much more pissed at the lack of extra moves needed in 2016 to push them forward more. They played too cautiously then when there was a real chance.
 
Yeah, I was thinking of what it would take to get up to 88 or so - forgot that 85 was the 2nd wildcard. And yeah, had we spent better, we'd be getting close to 85. 40M on, say, EE, Reddick/Fowler, and Thames is a good 8 or so wins over what we got from that crop, which puts us close to the wildcard spot. But then you also have larger commitments to this year - yeah, Bautista was a horrible waste of money last year, but a big reason they gave him a shot was that it didn't saddle us for the future.

That's just it though, you can't build a playoff team in MLB without taking future risk. You can fill some holes short term, but sometimes you need to identify good ball players and just pony up.


If we had given all that money to EE+Fowler, we'd be complaining about why did we spend 35M a year for -1 WAR from them combined for the next few years. And I think you're looking at the wrong year on Moss - last year he was -0.5 WAR, and then was cut this year in spring and hasn't played yet, effectively done it seems.

Here's the thing, I don't think they *had* to sign EE. There were lots of sticks and platoon possibilities out there that could have provided value. I know Thames feels a bit hindisighty now, but he was discussed as a target at the time on here.

As for Fowler, I wouldn't be worried this season if he was here. That big ol .168 babip is the definition of not sustainable.


But yeah, potentially the bigger f-up than their useless FA signings have been essentially the lack of any other moves with the team. Heck, even a couple moves last year like the Solarte/Grichuk/Diaz moves they did this year would have shown something. And it's still frustrating that they haven't really done anything to set the direction of the team. They plugged the holes on the bench this year, but left the rotation without depth. And again, maybe you can't expect that 4/5 of your starting rotation will completely shit the bed, but the fact that we don't even have 1 minor league starter able to come up with a spot start is just horrible.

+1

They did some good work this past off season filling holes. But they were filling holes on a ship that they already let sink. Do that type of work the previous off season, in conjuction with not lighting 40 million on fire and we're a 85-90 win team, even with the injuries, even with the ghost of Tulo, etc.


I'm not just giving them a pass for last year's mess - it definitely affects things. But given that you couldn't exactly sell coming off back to back playoff rounds, they were in a shitty place with a team clearly on the down. I'm much more pissed at the lack of extra moves needed in 2016 to push them forward more. They played too cautiously then when there was a real chance.

I guess this is where we are going to have to disagree. I don't think they were in a shitty position, and I don't think the team was clearly on the downslope. We had positions that clearly needed upgrading, and we had the money to upgrade with. Were we in a transition period where a 95 win season wasn't in the cards? Yeah, absolutely. But we were easily in the position to build a consistent wild card team that we would be injecting legitimate star talent into over the next few years internally.
 
Yeah, I was thinking of what it would take to get up to 88 or so - forgot that 85 was the 2nd wildcard. And yeah, had we spent better, we'd be getting close to 85. 40M on, say, EE, Reddick/Fowler, and Thames is a good 8 or so wins over what we got from that crop, which puts us close to the wildcard spot. But then you also have larger commitments to this year - yeah, Bautista was a horrible waste of money last year, but a big reason they gave him a shot was that it didn't saddle us for the future. If we had given all that money to EE+Fowler, we'd be complaining about why did we spend 35M a year for -1 WAR from them combined for the next few years. And I think you're looking at the wrong year on Moss - last year he was -0.5 WAR, and then was cut this year in spring and hasn't played yet, effectively done it seems.

But yeah, potentially the bigger f-up than their useless FA signings have been essentially the lack of any other moves with the team. Heck, even a couple moves last year like the Solarte/Grichuk/Diaz moves they did this year would have shown something. And it's still frustrating that they haven't really done anything to set the direction of the team. They plugged the holes on the bench this year, but left the rotation without depth. And again, maybe you can't expect that 4/5 of your starting rotation will completely shit the bed, but the fact that we don't even have 1 minor league starter able to come up with a spot start is just horrible.

I'm not just giving them a pass for last year's mess - it definitely affects things. But given that you couldn't exactly sell coming off back to back playoff rounds, they were in a shitty place with a team clearly on the down. I'm much more pissed at the lack of extra moves needed in 2016 to push them forward more. They played too cautiously then when there was a real chance.

Exactly , we needed some mix of the Yanks/Sox stud youth on our roster producing to work with our vets . Many of our players were on the wrong side of 30 and our farm had nothing to give us a boost .

Our PS shitting the bed is not a surprise in MLB . You see it every year . Rotation inconsistencies , injuries , etc..all add up to an uncertain staff.

I agree with you on not making a bigger push in 2016 , but decline was in order soon enough with our roster .

Finally we have some kids providing some future hope. When Piallr is the only positional player we developed in over a decade , its pathetic.
 
While Mindz does make a solid argument, there is some revisionist history in there too. It's still pretty surprising (at least to me) that Jose declined as badly as he did, so fast. I didn't expect him to go right off the cliff, and thought that deal was a good idea for both sides.

Also thought Pearce was a pretty good hitter (if nothing else) for several years. It's one of those things where when it doesn't work out, management has to take some blame but on paper it was a good add.

And I know several reputable analytics people who thought that Kendrys was undervalued. I'm sure they went at it by the numbers and figured they could get better value per dollar with Morales at $11M as opposed to Edwin at $25. They were wrong, and you could have probably made the same argument about Thames, so certainly in hindsight that was a mistake.

They're transitioning to youth (knowing Vlad, Bo et al are knocking on the doorstep) while trying to remain competitive in the interim, and it has worked to a certain extent this year despite the fact that none of our starters other than Happ can get anybody out.
 
Serious question.

Are you guys actually still watching games? Full nine innings?

Back in the day, I still would watch even though the team was bad, but now I can't waste my time on it.

Unlike the Leafs, who I watch no matter what, even if the only guy I'm rooting for is someone we haven't even drafted yet.
 
Well, you already compared watching games to living in Guantanamo Bay, so perhaps baseball isn't your thing? They were a .500 team until a couple of days ago.
 
One more shot for Jose.

Marly Rivera ESPN Writer

Mets announce that they signed free agent outfielder José Bautista to a one-year major league contract. Bautista will wear #11 and be available for tonight's game vs. Miami.
 
While Mindz does make a solid argument, there is some revisionist history in there too. It's still pretty surprising (at least to me) that Jose declined as badly as he did, so fast. I didn't expect him to go right off the cliff, and thought that deal was a good idea for both sides.

I have a hard time accepting the "revisionist history" tag here when I'm just repeating a lot of the things I said at the time the moves were made.

As for Jose, he saw an across the board drop from ages 35 to 36 in almost every key statistical category. Even some of the leading indicators like IFFB (percentage of fly balls that don't make it out of the infield) dropped, his average fly ball distance dropped from 204 ft to 179 ft (to give that context, he dropped from 18th and tied with Nolan Arenado, to 137th and tied with Dionner Navarro...huge drop in power), his average exit velocity showed a decline.

I said it at the time, Bautista was looking close to done. He ended up being closer than I thought.

Also thought Pearce was a pretty good hitter (if nothing else) for several years. It's one of those things where when it doesn't work out, management has to take some blame but on paper it was a good add.

Pearce was a good value add as a lefty masher 1B/DH, but he's always been a terrible outfielder. The Jays played him 637 innings in the OF last season, which is about as much as he had played in the 3 prior seasons combined. Where he has a legitimately good glove though is 1B. Of course, we played him 55 innings at the position he's legitimately good at.

And I know several reputable analytics people who thought that Kendrys was undervalued. I'm sure they went at it by the numbers and figured they could get better value per dollar with Morales at $11M as opposed to Edwin at $25. They were wrong.

That's not how I remember the reaction to Morales signing at all. I remember 2 sabre arguments made in his favour, first being the park factor argument. I pointed out at the time that while the Park Factor for runs at the Rogers Centre was high, the Rogers Centre played neutral for power in 2016 (17th in the league in HR), also that while Morales had better power on the road in 2016 (.232 ISO) he only put up a 112 wRC+ on the road even with that power.

I also pointed out that the approach of comparing production to dollars in a linear scale is ****ing foolish because it's a sliding scale. Yeah, a 120 wRC+ is only 10% more than a 110 wRC+ but it becomes increasingly more difficult to add that level of player and the cost of those players isn't linear. Neither is their effect on the W/L column.

The other thing brought up at the time was Atkins and his "internal" statistics, which were brought up specifically because he was questioned why were bringing in Morales on the strength of a 33 yr old power surge. His walk rate was down, K rate was up, etc.

I pretty vividly remember the sabremetric community calling for a power correction and warning of this being a mistake contract.

and you could have probably made the same argument about Thames, so certainly in hindsight that was a mistake.

Thames was 3 yrs younger, coming off of a god like performance in SK (he was actually nicknamed God in Korea), had shown decent hitting chops in MLB before leaving for SK and was half the cost. If we're making a risky use of money (Morales was 33 and coming off of a .8 WAR season...) then let's swing for the fences, no?

They're transitioning to youth (knowing Vlad, Bo et al are knocking on the doorstep) while trying to remain competitive in the interim, and it has worked to a certain extent this year despite the fact that none of our starters other than Happ can get anybody out.

"while trying to remain competitive"

Their attempt at it was ridiculously bad. Everything they've done to try to remain competitive has been an incredible failure. They may as well have lit the money they've spent on fire, it actually would have been less damaging to the W/L column.
 
Serious question.

Are you guys actually still watching games? Full nine innings?

Back in the day, I still would watch even though the team was bad, but now I can't waste my time on it.

Unlike the Leafs, who I watch no matter what, even if the only guy I'm rooting for is someone we haven't even drafted yet.

I can't miss games. I always flicked, I'm sure I flick more, but between TV and the radio...it's a drug I've had in my system too long now.
 
I've luckily stopped watching. I'll start paying closer attention when they call Vladdy up. I legitimately believe that this kid will be generational and when I'm an old ass man I want to be able to tell stories about watching one of the greats in a Jays uniform for hopefully his entire career.
 
I have a hard time accepting the "revisionist history" tag here when I'm just repeating a lot of the things I said at the time the moves were made.

As for Jose, he saw an across the board drop from ages 35 to 36 in almost every key statistical category. Even some of the leading indicators like IFFB (percentage of fly balls that don't make it out of the infield) dropped, his average fly ball distance dropped from 204 ft to 179 ft (to give that context, he dropped from 18th and tied with Nolan Arenado, to 137th and tied with Dionner Navarro...huge drop in power), his average exit velocity showed a decline.

I said it at the time, Bautista was looking close to done. He ended up being closer than I thought.



Pearce was a good value add as a lefty masher 1B/DH, but he's always been a terrible outfielder. The Jays played him 637 innings in the OF last season, which is about as much as he had played in the 3 prior seasons combined. Where he has a legitimately good glove though is 1B. Of course, we played him 55 innings at the position he's legitimately good at.



That's not how I remember the reaction to Morales signing at all. I remember 2 sabre arguments made in his favour, first being the park factor argument. I pointed out at the time that while the Park Factor for runs at the Rogers Centre was high, the Rogers Centre played neutral for power in 2016 (17th in the league in HR), also that while Morales had better power on the road in 2016 (.232 ISO) he only put up a 112 wRC+ on the road even with that power.

I also pointed out that the approach of comparing production to dollars in a linear scale is ****ing foolish because it's a sliding scale. Yeah, a 120 wRC+ is only 10% more than a 110 wRC+ but it becomes increasingly more difficult to add that level of player and the cost of those players isn't linear. Neither is their effect on the W/L column.

The other thing brought up at the time was Atkins and his "internal" statistics, which were brought up specifically because he was questioned why were bringing in Morales on the strength of a 33 yr old power surge. His walk rate was down, K rate was up, etc.

I pretty vividly remember the sabremetric community calling for a power correction and warning of this being a mistake contract.



Thames was 3 yrs younger, coming off of a god like performance in SK (he was actually nicknamed God in Korea), had shown decent hitting chops in MLB before leaving for SK and was half the cost. If we're making a risky use of money (Morales was 33 and coming off of a .8 WAR season...) then let's swing for the fences, no?



"while trying to remain competitive"

Their attempt at it was ridiculously bad. Everything they've done to try to remain competitive has been an incredible failure. They may as well have lit the money they've spent on fire, it actually would have been less damaging to the W/L column.

Yeah, Jose was pretty toast. There was always the chance that his brutal year before was injury-riddled, and people were hoping that his yoga would keep his body young. On a 1 year deal, no real problem there. But it made for a tough end to his Jays career either way.

Pearce was a potential FA steal, as he was just coming off a 2 WAR season. The original thought was he was going to platoon with Smoak at 1B, but then Smoak broke out big, and so obviously he got shunted to the OF, where terrible is probably a generous description of his abilities there. He was only a -12 UZR/150 there last year, and is at -70 uzr/150 this year! (although few innings, thankfully).

Morales has been hated by the SABR community, but a few people I remember were saying he was a somewhat underrated player. The thought was his power numbers would go up, and even if he'd be slow even if he was a Molina, he could at least hit a few bombs in Rogers Centre to make up for it. But once the power goes with him, he's useless, since he's so slow that everything is a single for him. For his career, his baserunning has almost been less valuable than his batting, which is kind of crazy for a guy with almost 200 HR and a 110 wRC+ for his career. He just stopped wearing his glassed over the weekend and he's hit better since then - that probably gives him another couple weeks to prove that theory. But yeah, he was on the list of worst signings of the off-season, before the market for sluggers died.

And yeah, Thames was a total unknown. For the amount that he signed for, I was really shocked we weren't in on that. It was basically a no-risk move, only needing him to be like a 1 WAR/year player for it to pay off. It's not like he was run out of town before, or that the team has a rule against bringing back former players either. I dunno - maybe he didn't want to play in Toronto again, or was promised more playing time with Milwaukee, but that definitely was a risk worth taking. Would have been a way better use of money than Morales, and positionally would have fit in well for us as well, with basically a platoon with Pearce at DH, with both of them able to fill in at 1B or LF in a pinch.

And for lighting money on fire, the funniest/scariest stat out there: If Morales keeps going at the rate he's been since joining the Jays, not only will he be massively overpaid, but at the $/WAR rate that free agents go for, had his deal actually pay us instead of paying him, he'd actually still be bordering on being overpaid. He's been worth roughly -1.5 WAR in 180 games - prorated to 150 games a year for 3 years at 9M/WAR, that works out to about -33M in value, virtually the exact amount of his deal.
 
I've luckily stopped watching. I'll start paying closer attention when they call Vladdy up. I legitimately believe that this kid will be generational and when I'm an old ass man I want to be able to tell stories about watching one of the greats in a Jays uniform for hopefully his entire career.

Yeah, I find that other games definitely interest me more. Like, I'd totally rather watch Braves-Phillies right now. Although I do want to go to one of the next 2 games to watch Trout+Ohtani play, speaking of generational talents. And the minute that Vlad's called up I'm grabbing a ticket for that game - F whatever else I have on that night.
 
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