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OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

The Jays will always be a team that will have to pay more to lure stars here, have Jr. here an extra year could matter.

Personally, I think once you get Vlad, Bichette up here, once Martin makes way...we'll have 3 or four years where I hope they really go for it.
 
Bleedsblue&white said:
The control yes...it's not even like the Jays are the first team to be like this with a sure-fire thing...I don't like the idea of pimping seats while you are taking the team apart.

Don't get me wrong, I've still been down a few times this season and I always will, but mnmgt is not just dismantling the team...everything is going wrong as well.

It feels like smoke and mirrors to have him up this season, have all kinds of positive press in the middle of guys not running out ground balls, or bailing on plays.
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What in there has anything to do with a teenager having a historic season and through that has earned the right to play in MLB to a far greater extent than most of the active roster this season?

People are making this way more complicated than it needs to be. Simple question: What level of baseball does Vlad Jr belong in?

We all know the answer. Dicking around with politics and pop psychology is a fools errand. Play the player where their talents suggest they should be playing. Worry about paying him later. Or here's a novel ****ing idea, don't low ball grind his ass through every round of arbitration you can and instead look to sign him long mother****ing term at the first possibility.
 
Bleedsblue&white said:
The Jays will always be a team that will have to pay more to lure stars here,
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It's like you just slept through the AA era man. Win. Win and elite players will not only want to be here, they'll want to stay here. Donaldson is a recent MVP and was entirely cool with talking extension. Joey and EE were about as elite as power sticks get and wanted to not just be here, but stay. It's not a Toronto thing, it's a losing thing. Yeah, players want to be compensated more to play for a team that has little chance of winning, for an organization that winning is a secondary value for.
 
Bleedsblue&white said:
...for more money, yeah.

We are not the first destination for anybody.
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Other than the Yankees, is there really a standard "first destination" club out there? Everyone else is entirely dependent on winning. The Cubs weren't a destination until they won, Houston was poison until the won, the Red Sox were considered career purgatory before they started winning, etc, etc. We've seen elite free agents sign in ****ing Detroit.

The Yankees are the only "first destination" team in the league. Even then, they're usually the highest bidder on the players they want.
 
IF it weren't for the traffic, Toronto disgraces every city in the world. Such an amazing city, but the traffic truly is, abysmal.

Thousands of miles of trail to bike on, in the city. Perennially ranked number one or two in the world for that.

The islands downtown, where you can have a blue flag swim.

Restaurant after first class restaurant.

Insanely good public tennis courts.

Ahhh, its just a great city. Every city in Canada is a junk yard, compared to it.
 
Bleedsblue&white said:
We may need a couple good years, then, if Vlad is what we think he is, if Bichette and Jansen et al tun out, we'll still overpay, but they'll come.
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It will be years of pain before we get better . We have no shot at the division with the yanks and Sox set up for the next 5 years at least.

It’s all about player development and flushing the veteran trash out the system .

No point spending like fools on free agents and make the same mistakes like other teams .
 
Teams like the Yankees and Sox are a destination because they pay more than everyone else. We've never had a problem attracting/keeping stars, but you have to pay. Because if you don't teams like the Yankees will.
 
MindzEye said:
It's like you just slept through the AA era man. Win. Win and elite players will not only want to be here, they'll want to stay here. Donaldson is a recent MVP and was entirely cool with talking extension. Joey and EE were about as elite as power sticks get and wanted to not just be here, but stay. It's not a Toronto thing, it's a losing thing. Yeah, players want to be compensated more to play for a team that has little chance of winning, for an organization that winning is a secondary value for.
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You could also probably add David Price to that list. We don't really have any way of knowing for sure since the Jays didn't even so much as make him an offer, but if the money had been right he seemed pretty amenable to sticking around in Toronto. What it boils down to is, "if you build it they will come".

I mean, hell, looking toward the hockey world---for years, Detroit was a premier destination in the NHL. And while they may be an original-six team, who the **** really wants to go live in Detroit if they have a choice to play anywhere else in North America? Particularly in the mid-to-late 90's to early 2000's, before a lot of the downtown revitalization in Detroit had taken place, and they were still playing in a shitty old building. But when the Wings had built themselves into a premier organization that routinely contended, that changed everything.

On the other hand, if you're a milquetoast, low-budget organization with no real ambitions other than making half-hearted attempts to scrape into one of the AL Wild Card spots if literally everything goes right for your team...then yeah, you're going to have to pay more for FA's, and the premier guys will give you as much time-of-day as Tavares gave to the Habs this summer.
 
LeafGm said:
You could also probably add David Price to that list. We don't really have any way of knowing for sure since the Jays didn't even so much as make him an offer, but if the money had been right he seemed pretty amenable to sticking around in Toronto. What it boils down to is, "if you build it they will come".

I mean, hell, looking toward the hockey world---for years, Detroit was a premier destination in the NHL. And while they may be an original-six team, who the **** really wants to go live in Detroit if they have a choice to play anywhere else in North America? Particularly in the mid-to-late 90's to early 2000's, before a lot of the downtown revitalization in Detroit had taken place, and they were still playing in a shitty old building. But when the Wings had built themselves into a premier organization that routinely contended, that changed everything.

On the other hand, if you're a milquetoast, low-budget organization with no real ambitions other than making half-hearted attempts to scrape into one of the AL Wild Card spots if literally everything goes right for your team...then yeah, you're going to have to pay more for FA's, and the premier guys will give you as much time-of-day as Tavares gave to the Habs this summer.
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The Jays will always have a slight disadvantage in that many guys won't really want to play in Canada, but yeah, if we could actually build an org with a legit perennial chance of success (like St Louis), we may still not be the #1 destination for guys but should at least manage to be competitive in bidding. The only team that beats the Jays TV ratings are the Yankees, and despite the fact that we've been complete shit this year, are still 5th in the AL (13th in the league) in attendance, averaging over 30k per game. There really is no reason why we shouldn't be in that tier of team behind the Yankees or Dodgers for anything.
 
UWHabs said:
The Jays will always have a slight disadvantage in that many guys won't really want to play in Canada, but yeah, if we could actually build an org with a legit perennial chance of success (like St Louis), we may still not be the #1 destination for guys but should at least manage to be competitive in bidding. The only team that beats the Jays TV ratings are the Yankees, and despite the fact that we've been complete shit this year, are still 5th in the AL (13th in the league) in attendance, averaging over 30k per game. There really is no reason why we shouldn't be in that tier of team behind the Yankees or Dodgers for anything.
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Yeah, that is the other factor here.

Even if the Jays do have to pay more---so what? There's no salary cap in baseball, and even with their baseline levels of TV & attendance numbers (let alone the business they do when they're legitimately a top team), the Jays should be an extremely profitable enterprise that should be perfectly capable of competing with the big dogs when it comes to payroll.
 
MindzEye said:
What in there has anything to do with a teenager having a historic season and through that has earned the right to play in MLB to a far greater extent than most of the active roster this season?

People are making this way more complicated than it needs to be. Simple question: What level of baseball does Vlad Jr belong in?

We all know the answer. Dicking around with politics and pop psychology is a fools errand. Play the player where their talents suggest they should be playing. Worry about paying him later. Or here's a novel ****ing idea, don't low ball grind his ass through every round of arbitration you can and instead look to sign him long mother****ing term at the first possibility.
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whatever league is above the MLB
 
GEEMAN said:
It will be years of pain before we get better . We have no shot at the division with the yanks and Sox set up for the next 5 years at least.

It’s all about player development and flushing the veteran trash out the system .

No point spending like fools on free agents and make the same mistakes like other teams .
Click to expand...

The Yankees are good so the jays should t try to compete is the most ridiculous argument.
 
It would be like the Leafs sending Matthews back to Switzerland to slide the ELC an extra year. Who ****ing cares? If you have one of the top players just be grateful and pay them. You will have to pay him either way.

Its not like Vlad has just been great in the minors this year. He is having one of the best seasons ever. What is the point of playing him at a level he is too good for. Development should overrule contract negotiations 7 years from now.
 
it fills me with pain and anguish to think that Shatkins are responsible for managing Vladdy's prime years. what a ****ing waste.
 
best qualified full-season level minor league seasons since fangraphs started keeping track:


1.V.Guerrero (19, AA/AAA): 315pa, 209wrc+
2.K.Kouzmanoff (24, AA/AAA): 391pa, 205wrc+
3.C.Colabello (29, AAA/AAA): 391pa, 196wrc+
4.N.Lowe (22, A+/AA/AAA): 454pa, 193wrc+
5.K.Bryant (22, AA/AAA): 594pa, 192wrc+
 
leafman101 said:
It would be like the Leafs sending Matthews back to Switzerland to slide the ELC an extra year. Who ****ing cares? If you have one of the top players just be grateful and pay them. You will have to pay him either way.

Its not like Vlad has just been great in the minors this year. He is having one of the best seasons ever. What is the point of playing him at a level he is too good for. Development should overrule contract negotiations 7 years from now.
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Vladdy is ready for the majors but this argument is dumb. As Dan Shulman pointed out yesterday, every team does this. The Cubs did it with Kris Bryant. Bryce Harper is a Washington National this year precisely because they did it too. If Vlad is as good as we think he'll be making $40-$50 million by then, and it's smarter to have him for an extra year when we're hopefully competitive than getting a few at-bats on this shitshow.

They need to fix this in the next CBA and you can certainly argue he should be up here, but making this argument all about Shapiro and Atkins is disingenuous.
 
Its not a dumb position that development should be placed ahead of contract management. In fact there is a good argument to make that bringing him up sooner, and signing him to a long term deal quicker can actually lead to savings in the long run and is better contract management (see Trout).

Besides, Harper is a bad comp. He played most of the year in A, and wasn't that great in AA. And the Cubs were equally as dumb to forfeit a year of Bryant in the majors.

Also, I didn't even mention Shapiro and Atkins. Its dumb no matter who does it.

Blaming it on the CBA is silly. Like I said, there are the same CBA advantages in hockey. The Leafs should have sent Matthews back to Europe based on the exact same logic. He'd only cost $900k next year instead of $12 mill.

We're not talking about your average top prospect here.
 
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