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OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

MindzEye said:
Because small starters throwing gas historically don't last.



Durability, durability, durability. There is no comparable to Stroman for front line pitches of that size being successful starters over a long period of time. There have been a number of guys small in stature with big arms who end up in the bullpen though.
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https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&sour...vER6cETpbmfEuZpMw&sig2=5wGf8SP3YDjynHSKV20r-Q

In sum, the data indicate that height is essentially irrelevant when a pitcher is good enough to become an established major-league pitcher.

At this point we can say out loud what our eyes say when we watch Tim Lincecum or Greg Maddux. Height does not matter for major-league pitchers because only the truly talented make it to the major leagues in the first place.
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These data demonstrate that there is no statistical evidence that shorter pitchers are more or less durable than taller pitchers. The statistics suggest that they are just as prone to each type of injury,they recover at the same rate and they get injured as often. Given that durability is the most often cited concern for baseball executives when drafting shorter pitchers, the evidence in this study that durability does not correlate to a pitcher’s height is highly significant. Brad Steil explained the prevailing theory as “You know, a large, strong body is more durable in general.”4 However, the data contradict that claim.
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I find it interesting that the two example used were Greg Maddux who wasn't that small and threw 88mph in his prime, and Lincecum, who was elite until he had arm problems.
 
MindzEye said:
I find it interesting that the two example used were Greg Maddux who wasn't that small and threw 88mph in his prime, and Lincecum, who was elite until he had arm problems.
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Top 30 in pitching WAR in the 2000's (min 1500 IP)

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and 2010's (min 600 ip)



Don't see many small pitchers there...most are big guys. Small guys might be ok for the short term, but they aren't built to last.
 
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Deckie007 said:
Top 30 in pitching WAR in the 2000's (min 1500 IP)



Don't see many small pitchers there...most are big guys. Small guys might be ok for the short term, but they aren't built to last.
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I think Zeke's point is that, yeah there aren't many diminutive starters that make the show, but once they prove they are skilled enough to be there, they don't break down any more than the bigger guys.
 
Don't see many small pitchers there...most are big guys. Small guys might be ok for the short term, but they aren't built to last.
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Colon and Oswalt were little guys who were hard throwers. Though they were both 5'11-6'0 and not 5'7-5'8 like Stroman.


Hey, I ****ing hope that he becomes the outlier and succeeds despite his size. But to dismiss the concern about a very small pitcher with a max effort delivery, given what we've seen/learned about max effort pitching and it's outcomes the last 2 seasons, is silly.
 
CH1 said:
I think Zeke's point is that, yeah there aren't many diminutive starters that make the show, but once they prove they are skilled enough to be there, they don't break down any more than the bigger guys.
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But that's not true. There aren't many small starters because they do wear out and either get injured or get moved to the BP. Pitching WAR is as much about effectiveness as it is longevity. You don't see many small guys on the list because they don't last in the starting rotation very long.
 
MindzEye said:
Colon and Oswalt were little guys who were hard throwers. Though they were both 5'11-6'0 and not 5'7-5'8 like Stroman.


Hey, I ****ing hope that he becomes the outlier and succeeds despite his size. But to dismiss the concern about a very small pitcher with a max effort delivery, given what we've seen/learned about max effort pitching and it's outcomes the last 2 seasons, is silly.
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Hey me too, but it's really really unlikely. No way the dude is in the starting rotation making 30 starts a year for the next ten years.
 
CH1 said:
I think Zeke's point is that, yeah there aren't many diminutive starters that make the show, but once they prove they are skilled enough to be there, they don't break down any more than the bigger guys.
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I get what Zeke's point is, but the methodology on the study he listed isn't nearly robust enough to draw the conclusions it is. We've learned since that study (2010) that the epidemic in arm injuries is due to how many reps pitches are taking at max effort over the course of their entire career, not just professional career, but back into their teenage years.

Assuming mechanical/arm speed parity between two pitches, it's just way easier for a 6'4 pitcher to throw 94mph than it is for a 5'8 pitcher. A big guy (think Roy Halladay for example) can dial it back a little bit, not produce max effort on every pitch and still comfortably throw 92-94. A smaller pitcher has to spend maximum effort to hump it up there that hard. It's the level of effort, and not necessarily the height that is the problem. If the taller pitcher decided to say **** it and throw the 96-97 he's capable of at maximum effort, all the time, he'll end up with arm issues too. With some of the new information coming out about the dangers of long term max effort pitching, you'll start to see organizations focus more on changing speeds and location and a lot less on high end velocity imo. Too many kids blowing their arms up, and those blown up arms cost millions and millions of dollars a year.

Fwiw, I think Stroman engages his lower half extremely well and doesn't put undue stress on his arm in his delivery, and he's athletic enough to keep this up for a few years but probably by the time he's 27-28 yrs old, we'll be looking to put him in the bullpen.
 
Corey Kluber and King Felix having a fantastic duel right now......Kluber has thrown 6 shutout innings thus far, with only 60 pitches 50 of which have been strikes.
 
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