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OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

Bleedsblue&white said:
It's nuts to blame any manager when you have this many guys under-performing.
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Some of the bats may be under-performing, but it's hard to say if that line of thinking applies to the bullpen. We may just need better arms back there, a task that Shatkins is unlikely to complete over the course of the year.

I've said it before, this time isn't built to win close games. If the hitters don't perform like world-beaters, they struggle. This hasn't changed from last year.
 
You guys are missing my point...according to conventional wisdom, Gibby made the right call. The problem here is underlined by statements like this:

84 pitches with a shutout going?
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Irrelevant and irrelevant...yet masquerading as baseball logic. I don't blame you for blindly parroting them, nuggets like that have been pushed on us as the right way to manage a game for decades but when you break them down individually they become pretty ****ing meaningless. The "84 pitches" point is meant to push the assertion that Happ had plenty of gas left, when we know that pitchers struggle the 4th time through the lineup. How many pitches he's thrown at that point is irrelevant, what's relevant is that he's far more likely to struggle the 4th time through than the 2nd or 3rd time through the lineup, and in innings far higher leverage innings.

As well, that he had a shutout going is also irrelevant. That he was strong through 7 is lovely and all, take the gift and manage the 2 run game the way you should. Bring in a fresh pen arm with the bases empty.

So yeah, Gibby made the right call by leaving his starter in a situation where he's statistically far more likely to fail, and then bringing his reliever into a situation where he's far more likely to fail. But somehow we delude ourselves by considering this the right decision because the starter has "only" thrown 84 pitches to this point, as if that's relevant in the least.
 
They only thing I would add as a note is that players tend to respond better to "conventional" managing. It fits their expectations and has an impact on their confidence. That said I agree with ME.
 
Aberdeen said:
They only thing I would add as a note is that players tend to respond better to "conventional" managing. It fits their expectations and has an impact on their confidence. That said I agree with ME.
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Thats an issue if you just change from conventional managing, to putting this type of strategy in overnight.

If you explain it to the players in spring training what you are trying to do. If you get them to buy in from day one, you can manage this way all year long and there are less questions of "what was he thinking"....
 
MindzEye said:
You guys are missing my point...according to conventional wisdom, Gibby made the right call. The problem here is underlined by statements like this:



Irrelevant and irrelevant...yet masquerading as baseball logic. I don't blame you for blindly parroting them, nuggets like that have been pushed on us as the right way to manage a game for decades but when you break them down individually they become pretty ****ing meaningless. The "84 pitches" point is meant to push the assertion that Happ had plenty of gas left, when we know that pitchers struggle the 4th time through the lineup. How many pitches he's thrown at that point is irrelevant, what's relevant is that he's far more likely to struggle the 4th time through than the 2nd or 3rd time through the lineup, and in innings far higher leverage innings.

As well, that he had a shutout going is also irrelevant. That he was strong through 7 is lovely and all, take the gift and manage the 2 run game the way you should. Bring in a fresh pen arm with the bases empty.

So yeah, Gibby made the right call by leaving his starter in a situation where he's statistically far more likely to fail, and then bringing his reliever into a situation where he's far more likely to fail. But somehow we delude ourselves by considering this the right decision because the starter has "only" thrown 84 pitches to this point, as if that's relevant in the least.
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But he never was to the point of going through the lineup for the 4th time. Due up in the 8th was the bottom 4 guys in the lineup.

So yeah, if they had top of the lineup due up maybe you have a point. But at 84 pitches with the bottom 3rd of the lineup due up? You take him out there you have a mutiny on your hands.

Now, no, I don't let him face top of the lineup with anyone on base. And if he gets them 1-2-3 in the bottom of the 8th, the right call is to go to Osuna in the 9th. But with our setup man as Gavin f'ing Floyd for the game, it would be insane to pull Happ at that point.

Now, if this is the playoffs, it's a whole different story. In that case I probably won't even want Happ going through the lineup a 3rd time. But you can't use up the bullpen when your starter still has gas left and is facing the bottom part of their lineup.
 
History seems to be repeating itself. The Jays either have good hitting and crappy pitching or good pitching and crappy hitting.

How can this team's offence be so bad and what happened what was supposed to be an improved BP?
 
bullpens are bullpens
but the hitting

wow

they really need to put some wins together it is almost june already
 
Sadly; im hanging my hopes on Travis returning and sparking the line-up. The overall demeanour of the players right now is not good. A lot of frustrated individuals makes for a negative clubhouse
 
Email sent to me at 2:33PM from bluejays.com: Jays continue to bring Travis along slowly (posted yesterday)
Tweet sent out by Blue Jays at 2:34PM: Jays activate Travis
 
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