OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

BNightengale

The #Reds have not packaged Cueto and Chapman in any proposals so far, preferring separate deals, if they do decide to move their closer.

Vladdy Jn taking BP at Rogers Centre. I feel like this guys going to be on the team at 18.

MyNameIsJonas said:

Getting a 3 is a waste of time IMO

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Why? We have the worst starting pitcher among any good team in the AL, a #3 to another team is a 1-2 here. Any upgrade is an upgrade.

MyNameIsJonas said:

please define competent pickup that is actually better than what we currently have in the rotation

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This shouldn't be hard to figure out on your own.

We currently have 2.5 legitimate major league starters in our rotation. Felix ****ing Dubront is taking a turn, Dickey is trash, and Estrada is an okay #5. Why is there so much resistance to simply upgrading on this shit?

Yeah, they need to upgrade. Even if they get an Ace, the probably still need another starter.

Leafin' said:

We've said the same about prospects in the past. Some work out some don't. If we are trading one of the young pitchers we need to make sure we don't trade the one that develops into a legit #1. Easier said than done.

Hutchison before TJ was looked at as our best prospect i recall and an ace in the making. Now i don't see too many people making that claim any more.

If we can get a young enough controllable #1-2 i think you make the move. We have a limited amount of time left before Bautista and co are old and decrepit.

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Yes, if we can get a young and controllable #1-2...sure. There aren't a lot of those on the market though and what is available (but will still cost Norris, Hoffman, etc, etc) is impending unrestricted #1-2's. This organization is not going to pay 20M+ to bring in stud level pitchers in prime on long term deals, we simply aren't. So the only way we're going to get those guys is by developing them. We pissed away Syndergaard but have managed to keep Stroman, Hoffman, & Norris. Let's not compound the Syndergaard mistake by pissing away Hoffman or Norris on a short term fix.

As for Hutch, his ERA will correct. His defence independent pitching stats suggest he's been a #2 all year.

leafman101 said:

Yeah, they need to upgrade. Even if they get an Ace, the probably still need another starter.

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That's the thing, even if they get an ace, it won't cure what ails this pitching staff. They need 2 more arms. With Norris' recent performance, he might be one of the two. But we really need to push Dickey and Dubront out of the rotation.

Truth is, with Sanchez coming back, if he can step right back in and be counted on (which I think he can), we're not in that dire shape. Adding another #2 or #3 and pushing Estrada to the bullpen would be fine by me. Not like we're clear favorites to win by adding a stud #1 instead of a #2.

Sanchez was part of the problem, and has shown durability concerns. Estrada has out performed Sanchez in the rotation by a wide margin.

LeafOfFaith said:

Truth is, with Sanchez coming back, if he can step right back in and be counted on (which I think he can), we're not in that dire shape. Adding another #2 or #3 and pushing Estrada to the bullpen would be fine by me. Not like we're clear favorites to win by adding a stud #1 instead of a #2.

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In the AL, i think we might be if we add the stud.

Do people really fear KC, HOU and LAA?

Our worst SP isn't Estrada right now, after Beuhrle he's been next best.

Dickey and Hutch are the problems.

Sanchez is going to have to be a lot better that he was in his first AAA rehab outing.

MyNameIsJonas said:

In the AL, i think we might be if we add the stud.

Do people really fear KC, HOU and LAA?

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Yep, KC scares me. Incredible lights out bullpen that can take a 5th inning lead and close the door, a rotation better than ours (even if we added Cueto) and an offence not a huge step down from ours (6 regulars with 100 wRC+ or better, 9 that are 90 or better). Excellent defensively as well. They're a NL style ball club in the AL and they've very good.

Yes, Houston scares me. They also have a lights out bullpen that can turn a 5th inning lead into a win, 2 #1 pitchers at the top of their rotation and 5 guys with 4.00 or better FIP's. They've also got a legit, comfortably above average offence that could out bang us in a short series if we're not getting decent pitching.

As for your contention that Anaheim has "2 sticks"...they have "2 sticks" in the same way that we have "3 sticks". They have 2 behemoths in the middle of their order and a bunch of averagish around them. They also have a retarded bullpen (see a pattern forming here among contending clubs? The ability to put away a team when you have a mid to late game lead is kind of a big deal) with a rotation a solid step better than ours is currently and probably just as good as ours would be if we plugged both holes in it.



Us? We have 3 relievers that have been worth a **** (to a contending club) this season (Osuna, Hendricks, Loup) and 2 starters who are projectable members of an October 4 man staff (one of which has been wildly 'unlucky' this year). Yes, we have an awesome offence, but we've almost been worst case scenario with our pitching staff and need 4-5 bodies in to fix that. We're not just a Cueto away from being the best in the AL, ****, we're not even a Cueto away from being as good as the 3 teams you dismiss so easily.

I'm going to keep saying it, Donaldson is ****ing awesome

MindzEye said:

Us? We have 3 relievers that have been worth a **** (to a contending club) this season (Osuna, Hendricks, Loup) and 2 starters who are projectable members of an October 4 man staff (one of which has been wildly 'unlucky' this year). Yes, we have an awesome offence, but we've almost been worst case scenario with our pitching staff and need 4-5 bodies in to fix that. We're not just a Cueto away from being the best in the AL, ****, we're not even a Cueto away from being as good as the 3 teams you dismiss so easily.

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Won't argue with the other guys, but I'd say given the Jays offense, the pitching isn't as far as you think. The bullpen to me needs one arm to solidify it and move everyone else down a spot. Even guys like Schultz and Tepera have done well in small work, and getting a new guy in can help put Loup and Cecil back in spots where they can be more special. Heck, if you add guys to the rotation and then move a Hutchison or Sanchez to the pen, they may not even need a guy to fill in.

But the starting staff? Yeah, that needs work. Buerhle has been a rock again, and Estrada has looked great, but that really can't last. Dickey and Hutch have been pretty brutal, and we don't even have a 5th starter right now. We definitely need 2 guys that fill a regular rotation spot.

So to me, at the absolute minimum we need to add one guy who we can trust more than Dickey, Hutch, and the kids to just give us 5 or 6 innings with regularity. In a realistic ideal world we add a Cueto (top arm), a Leake (reliable bottom rotation guy), and a vet late inning guy (Papelbon/Chapman). I don't think more than that is really worth the cost. Add 3 guys, which certainly isn't cheap, and no, we're not the top pitching team, but with the bats flying as they are, that pitching staff should be good enough to take the division and potentially do some damage in the playoffs.

Don't look now, but Bo Schultz might be good.

UWHabs said:

Won't argue with the other guys, but I'd say given the Jays offense, the pitching isn't as far as you think. The bullpen to me needs one arm to solidify it and move everyone else down a spot. Even guys like Schultz and Tepera have done well in small work, and getting a new guy in can help put Loup and Cecil back in spots where they can be more special. Heck, if you add guys to the rotation and then move a Hutchison or Sanchez to the pen, they may not even need a guy to fill in.

But the starting staff? Yeah, that needs work. Buerhle has been a rock again, and Estrada has looked great, but that really can't last. Dickey and Hutch have been pretty brutal, and we don't even have a 5th starter right now. We definitely need 2 guys that fill a regular rotation spot.

So to me, at the absolute minimum we need to add one guy who we can trust more than Dickey, Hutch, and the kids to just give us 5 or 6 innings with regularity. In a realistic ideal world we add a Cueto (top arm), a Leake (reliable bottom rotation guy), and a vet late inning guy (Papelbon/Chapman). I don't think more than that is really worth the cost. Add 3 guys, which certainly isn't cheap, and no, we're not the top pitching team, but with the bats flying as they are, that pitching staff should be good enough to take the division and potentially do some damage in the playoffs.

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Seems like a team should be able to get Papelbon relatively cheaply, given the way he's shit on their organization as he has, so I'm all for that and then dropping Osuna down to the 8th inning set up role.

Then grab a solid 2/3 for the rotation without giving up Norris/Stroman/Hoffman, and bump Estrada to the pen.

And actually, if Stroman returns and is in form, we can bump Sanchez back to the pen too.

We don't need to sacrifice our stud kids. Just bring in a solid guy for the rotation and Papelbon for the pen and we're rolling.

UWHabs said:

Won't argue with the other guys, but I'd say given the Jays offense, the pitching isn't as far as you think. The bullpen to me needs one arm to solidify it and move everyone else down a spot. Even guys like Schultz and Tepera have done well in small work, and getting a new guy in can help put Loup and Cecil back in spots where they can be more special. Heck, if you add guys to the rotation and then move a Hutchison or Sanchez to the pen, they may not even need a guy to fill in.

But the starting staff? Yeah, that needs work. Buerhle has been a rock again, and Estrada has looked great, but that really can't last. Dickey and Hutch have been pretty brutal, and we don't even have a 5th starter right now. We definitely need 2 guys that fill a regular rotation spot.

So to me, at the absolute minimum we need to add one guy who we can trust more than Dickey, Hutch, and the kids to just give us 5 or 6 innings with regularity. In a realistic ideal world we add a Cueto (top arm), a Leake (reliable bottom rotation guy), and a vet late inning guy (Papelbon/Chapman). I don't think more than that is really worth the cost. Add 3 guys, which certainly isn't cheap, and no, we're not the top pitching team, but with the bats flying as they are, that pitching staff should be good enough to take the division and potentially do some damage in the playoffs.

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Problem is, adding a Cueto is going to cost us a Norris...for a rental. We're a club that doesn't spend to bring elite talent in, so the only way to acquire it is to develop it. I'm cool with burning down the rest of the system around our potentially elite kids to bring in help. I could give a **** if we were developing the Pillars, Boyd's etc of the world...but the Syndergaards, etc...we need to keep them if we're going to be anything more than a few 82-85 win teams and then a flame out with age.

Jon Morosi ‏@jonmorosi 17h17 hours ago

#Reds are prepared to trade prospective free agents Johnny Cueto and Mike Leake now that All-Star Game is over, sources say. @FOXSports