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Thread: OT: American Politics

  1. #66321
    Legend Altair's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    Stupid white nationalist supports writing for the CBC.
    No one loves the warrior until the enemy is at the gate.

    Quote Originally Posted by zeke View Post
    An idiot grunt like habitants should be enraged.

  2. #66322
    Legend JackBurton's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Altair View Post
    He noted that*in Canada, CBC listeners called*Tommy Douglas the greatest Canadian of all time, yet in the 1930s*the former*premier of Saskatchewan and father of medicare held a then popular belief in eugenics and wanted to sterilize people*with mental impairments.*

    "Attitudes change, and it seems to me that one of the tasks of historians and politicians is to remind people that today's values are different than past values, and the future's values will probably be different than ours," Granatstein said.*
    Tommy Douglas helped create Jack Bauer. He gets a free pass.

  3. #66323
    Legend Altair's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by JackBurton View Post
    Tommy Douglas helped create Jack Bauer. He gets a free pass.
    So there are good people who believe mentally disabled people should be sterilized?
    No one loves the warrior until the enemy is at the gate.

    Quote Originally Posted by zeke View Post
    An idiot grunt like habitants should be enraged.

  4. #66324
    Wayward Ditch Pig MindzEye's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Altair View Post
    So there are good people who believe mentally disabled people should be sterilized?
    Here's where I think this differs from the Lee statue. Tommy Douglas' achievements are separate from his shitty beliefs. There's not a whole lot about those shitty beliefs that are pertinent to why he's known 80 years later. So while I agree that a more nuanced view of historical figures is important, I don't see Douglas' shitty beliefs clouding his achievements.

    Lee on the other hand is only known for his role in taking a big ol "L" in a war to keep black slaves. That's it. There's no additional context, no additional achievement to balance out the shit. He's known for his shitty contributions to the history of humanity, and only because of a deep vein of persistent racism in US culture is he relevant historically or culturally today.

    I understand a person with a legitimate interest in military history having interest in him for his abilities on the battlefield, but that's simply not enough to justify statues, monuments, etc 150 years later.
    The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude larger than is required to produce it.

  5. #66325
    Legend Altair's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by MindzEye View Post
    Here's where I think this differs from the Lee statue. Tommy Douglas' achievements are separate from his shitty beliefs. There's not a whole lot about those shitty beliefs that are pertinent to why he's known 80 years later. So while I agree that a more nuanced view of historical figures is important, I don't see Douglas' shitty beliefs clouding his achievements.

    Lee on the other hand is only known for his role in taking a big ol "L" in a war to keep black slaves. That's it. There's no additional context, no additional achievement to balance out the shit. He's known for his shitty contributions to the history of humanity, and only because of a deep vein of persistent racism in US culture is he relevant historically or culturally today.

    I understand a person with a legitimate interest in military history having interest in him for his abilities on the battlefield, but that's simply not enough to justify statues, monuments, etc 150 years later.
    If I ever believed this would start and end with Lee I wouldn't argue it. If this was the end all, I would be ok with it.Lee, great military mind, wrong side of a bad cause.

    But by that same token, how do you feel about General Cornwallis in Halifax?

    Context.

    Won his wars.

    Founded one of the oldest cities in Canada.

    Made a what is now considered a horrible decision in offering money for native scalps but in the context of the time was in response to Native American attacks and the scalping of British settlers.

    He in all likelihood is coming down, how do you justify that?
    No one loves the warrior until the enemy is at the gate.

    Quote Originally Posted by zeke View Post
    An idiot grunt like habitants should be enraged.

  6. #66326
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Altair View Post
    So there are good people who believe mentally disabled people should be sterilized?
    Near as I can tell while he may have believed that early on his life; when he was given a position of power - he didn't enact any kind of legislation putting that forward those views. Does that give him a complete pass? Nope, but that should be taken into consideration (I can only assume he's changed his opinion on that subject at that time).

    Quote Originally Posted by Altair View Post
    If I ever believed this would start and end with Lee I wouldn't argue it. If this was the end all, I would be ok with it.Lee, great military mind, wrong side of a bad cause.

    But by that same token, how do you feel about General Cornwallis in Halifax?

    Context.

    Won his wars.

    Founded one of the oldest cities in Canada.

    Made a what is now considered a horrible decision in offering money for native scalps but in the context of the time was in response to Native American attacks and the scalping of British settlers.

    He in all likelihood is coming down, how do you justify that?
    I'll be honest, I'm a bit ashamed I actually probably slept thru those history classes in school & had only a vague idea who Cronwallis even was.

  7. #66327
    Wayward Ditch Pig MindzEye's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Altair View Post
    If I ever believed this would start and end with Lee I wouldn't argue it. If this was the end all, I would be ok with it.Lee, great military mind, wrong side of a bad cause.

    But by that same token, how do you feel about General Cornwallis in Halifax?

    Context.

    Won his wars.

    Founded one of the oldest cities in Canada.

    Made a what is now considered a horrible decision in offering money for native scalps but in the context of the time was in response to Native American attacks and the scalping of British settlers.

    He in all likelihood is coming down, how do you justify that?
    I'm against the Cornwallis statue coming down. There was a history of conflict with the natives in the area, and as shitty as the scalping order was, he was "just" matching a similar order placed on British scalps at the time.

    That seems to be the only real gripe that protestors have, which appears to be more of a smokescreen for native protestors to try to eliminate part of the history of their defeat at the hands of the British than it is about anything else.
    The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude larger than is required to produce it.

  8. #66328
    Canadiens & 'News & Views' Moderator TheCountofMonteCristo's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Altair View Post
    He noted that*in Canada, CBC listeners called*Tommy Douglas the greatest Canadian of all time, yet in the 1930s*the former*premier of Saskatchewan and father of medicare held a then popular belief in eugenics and wanted to sterilize people*with mental impairments.*

    "Attitudes change, and it seems to me that one of the tasks of historians and politicians is to remind people that today's values are different than past values, and the future's values will probably be different than ours," Granatstein said.*
    Granatstein is arguably Canada's greatest historian.

    If anyone knows how to deal with historical monuments, it's him.
    "The next game is the test unless we win" CanadienFan

    Donald Trump, the gift that keeps on giving.

  9. #66329
    Legend Altair's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by MindzEye View Post
    I'm against the Cornwallis statue coming down. There was a history of conflict with the natives in the area, and as shitty as the scalping order was, he was "just" matching a similar order placed on British scalps at the time.

    That seems to be the only real gripe that protestors have, which appears to be more of a smokescreen for native protestors to try to eliminate part of the history of their defeat at the hands of the British than it is about anything else.
    Fine.

    Now how does one stop this from happening?

    If people pipe up and say anything, even in a respectful manner, they are branded as white nationalists.

    The "proud boys", although part of a questionable group, tried to protest it in a respectful manner, and they were branded as disgraceful white nationalists and their careers are ruined.
    No one loves the warrior until the enemy is at the gate.

    Quote Originally Posted by zeke View Post
    An idiot grunt like habitants should be enraged.

  10. #66330
    Legend BKerr's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by MindzEye View Post
    Here's where I think this differs from the Lee statue. Tommy Douglas' achievements are separate from his shitty beliefs. There's not a whole lot about those shitty beliefs that are pertinent to why he's known 80 years later. So while I agree that a more nuanced view of historical figures is important, I don't see Douglas' shitty beliefs clouding his achievements.

    Lee on the other hand is only known for his role in taking a big ol "L" in a war to keep black slaves. That's it. There's no additional context, no additional achievement to balance out the shit. He's known for his shitty contributions to the history of humanity, and only because of a deep vein of persistent racism in US culture is he relevant historically or culturally today.

    I understand a person with a legitimate interest in military history having interest in him for his abilities on the battlefield, but that's simply not enough to justify statues, monuments, etc 150 years later.
    This. So much this.

    The ****ing false equivalencies between Washington and Lee are ridiculous.

    But here is the other thing: Its not about ****ing statues. Its about nazi ****wits coming to a town, chanting their nazi chants, arming themselves to the teeth and looking to intimidate the local population.

  11. #66331
    Canadiens & 'News & Views' Moderator TheCountofMonteCristo's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Altair View Post
    Fine.

    Now how does one stop this from happening?

    If people pipe up and say anything, even in a respectful manner, they are branded as white nationalists.

    The "proud boys", although part of a questionable group, tried to protest it in a respectful manner, and they were branded as disgraceful white nationalists and their careers are ruined.
    Hopefully cooler heads like Jack Granatstein (an actual accomplished historian and not a feelings based hashtag warrior on FB and twitter) will be listened to as he is the expert on monuments, how to handle the good and bad in all historical figures.
    "The next game is the test unless we win" CanadienFan

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  12. #66332
    Legend Altair's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCountofMonteCristo View Post
    Hopefully cooler heads like Jack Granatstein (an actual accomplished historian and not a feelings based hashtag warrior on FB and twitter) will be listened to as he is the expert on monuments, how to handle the good and bad in all historical figures.
    No. Not happening.

    This is political. It's being decided by politicians. City councils and the like.

    A bunch of politicians seeing natives protesting guys like cornwallis and that he needs to be taken dow in the spirit of reconciliation. Every group that opposes that are going to be branded white nationalists. Reporters who question it told they aren't allowed to talk. Historians won't factor in to this in the least. I'm sure as far as groups opposed to monuments, historians are part of the problem.
    No one loves the warrior until the enemy is at the gate.

    Quote Originally Posted by zeke View Post
    An idiot grunt like habitants should be enraged.

  13. #66333
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    Default OT: American Politics

    Let's be honest. People weren't labelled white nationalists for protesting removing a statue. White nationalists just happened to be protesting. You can't deny that they were white nationalists. That's what they call themselves.

    Most people don't give a shit about stupid, meaningless statues.

    Also let's stop pretending like relocating a statue from outside state buildings is the same thing as erasing history.

    If we were actually discussing erasing history, for example removing all reference to Robert e lee from schools, libraries, museums and the internet, then that is a much different problem. Removing the Ten Commandments, and other religious monuments, from outside state buildings hasn't erased Christianity from history.

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    Last edited by leafman101; Today at 07:00 AM.

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