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Thread: OT: American Politics

  1. #77861
    Hall of Famer Hoss's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    Okay...as an educator for 20 years who has worked in various different school communities and in a high school that had one of the highest suicide rate in Toronto, my opinion is that highschool in Toronto with the highest rate was because it most resembled the American mentality of the good looking jocks and the girls all had to have a certain look.
    The area had money as well, so kids were not only pressured to be good looking, they had to literally "keep up with the kardashians".
    This creates a tremendous amount of pressure on the gay teens, the insecure teens (which are all of them), and the socially awkward.
    Girls on a weekly basis were groped and worse in the stairways and basement parties. And those that weren't invited to anything were completely ostracized.
    This resulted in an extremely high suicide and attempted suicide rate in the area schools.
    The one way this school wasn't very "American"? These kids didn't have easy access to guns.
    They liked going into the seedier neighbourhoods for drugs, but they didn't want to buy guns.
    Sorry if this isn't as coherent...I'm texting it.

    But the gist is....American values of beauty and money and fame puts a lot of extra pressure on teens. They just can't keep up. And so suicide is a way out...but if you have a gun.....now you can at least get the fame you desire


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  2. #77862
    Wayward Ditch Pig MindzEye's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by uncus View Post
    Guns a part of the problem automatic assault rifles and hand guns.
    We had guns in the house growing up, and we all hunted and went out back to shoot or practice our archery. We didnt have these problems.
    You didn't, but society did. The gun homicide rate was higher in 1980 (significantly) than it is today in the US.

    But what we didnt have were video games killing hookers or killing cops or killing anything that moved.
    As much as the generation after me wants to deflect any and all blame from this technology, i think that is a big part of the problem.
    Society was actually more violent prior to their introduction and the issue has been studied to death (pun not intended) with no link found between violent video games and even increased thoughts of violence in children, nevermind increased violent behaviours.

    http://theconversation.com/its-time-...violence-91607
    The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude larger than is required to produce it.

  3. #77863
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by MindzEye View Post
    You didn't, but society did. The gun homicide rate was higher in 1980 (significantly) than it is today in the US.



    Society was actually more violent prior to their introduction and the issue has been studied to death (pun not intended) with no link found between violent video games and even increased thoughts of violence in children, nevermind increased violent behaviours.

    http://theconversation.com/its-time-...violence-91607
    How this myth still has legs is beyond me
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  4. #77864
    Wayward Ditch Pig MindzEye's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Altair View Post
    How this myth still has legs is beyond me
    Horace: 20 BC

    Our sires' age was worse than our grandsires'. We, their sons, are more
    worthless than they; so in our turn we shall give the world a progeny yet more
    corrupt.

    Thomas Barnes: 1624

    Youth were never more sawcie, yea never more savagely saucie . . . the ancient are scorned, the honourable are contemned, the magistrate is not dreaded.

    Enos Hitchcock: 1790

    The free access which many young people have to romances, novels, and plays has poisoned the mind and corrupted the morals of many a promising youth; and prevented others from improving their minds in useful knowledge. Parents take care to feed their children with wholesome diet; and yet how unconcerned about the provision for the mind, whether they are furnished with salutary food, or with trash, chaff, or poison?
    Granville Stanley Hall: 1904

    Never has youth been exposed to such dangers of both perversion and arrest as in our own land and day. Increasing urban life with its temptations, prematurities, sedentary occupations, and passive stimuli just when an active life is most needed, early emancipation and a lessening sense for both duty and discipline, the haste to know and do all befitting man's estate before its time, the mad rush for sudden wealth and the reckless fashions set by its gilded youth--all these lack some of the regulatives they still have in older lands with more conservative conditions.

    My point? If there is a common social thread connecting all of human civilization, it's that the generations that come after yours are shit, that their influences are shit and we're on the bring of the collapse of society because of these new things we don't understand, and these damn kids who just don't understand how the world works.

    Yet here we are in 2018 with no polio, a monstrously superior level of human well being in comparison to any other age, and video games.

    Weird.
    The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude larger than is required to produce it.

  5. #77865
    Legend lecoqsportif's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    Hoss, is that really an “American” mentality?

    Vacuous, superficial bullshit is ubiquitous and timeless. Has it become more central in our lives due to digital communication and relentless marketing? Maybe. I don’t follow it or care, because it counts for shit the minute junior needs to put a roof over his head and feed himself.

  6. #77866
    Legend lecoqsportif's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    Apart from the guns, one major difference between the US and other high income nations is the absence of a comprehensive social safety net. The other would be the relatively high degree of religious fundamentalism.

  7. #77867
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    Uhhh, Hoss, that was intense. LCSP well, you went sorta Ayn Raynd there.

  8. #77868
    ADMINuteman Habspatrol's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by MindzEye View Post
    Horace: 20 BC




    Thomas Barnes: 1624




    Enos Hitchcock: 1790



    Granville Stanley Hall: 1904




    My point? If there is a common social thread connecting all of human civilization, it's that the generations that come after yours are shit, that their influences are shit and we're on the bring of the collapse of society because of these new things we don't understand, and these damn kids who just don't understand how the world works.

    Yet here we are in 2018 with no polio, a monstrously superior level of human well being in comparison to any other age, and video games.

    Weird.
    Yeah, everyone thinks the next generation is worse, meanwhile they are actually better.
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  9. #77869
    Hall of Famer Hoss's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by lecoqsportif View Post
    Hoss, is that really an “American” mentality?

    Vacuous, superficial bullshit is ubiquitous and timeless. Has it become more central in our lives due to digital communication and relentless marketing? Maybe. I don’t follow it or care, because it counts for shit the minute junior needs to put a roof over his head and feed himself.
    At my keyboard now so can type a little clearer.

    This highschool in Toronto was the closest thing I felt to an American highschool. What I mean is, the area was predominantly white, with a decent amount of money in the area. The girls from elementary school age were taught early to have that "look". and that the cool boys were the jocks, or the kids with money that also had that look. All of the neighbouring schools also went to a junior high before attending the highschool. Here, the cliquey nature and emphasis on being "cool" and popular took hold a lot earlier than in other schools I have taught in. Kids in grade 7 were already being forced into sexual acts, nude pics were common occurrence, and alcohol and drugs stolen from parents was common.
    Every school has it's jocks, cheerleaders, nerds, goth etc... but in my time in other schools, it wasn't as vacuous. This school was literally "the breakfast club" in terms of the American version of a highschool.

    The difference was that there was such a hard separation between the haves and the havenots, and such a strong rejection of the kids without, that it put A LOT of pressure on the students to keep up. Again, I know this happens in every highschool, but when the surrounding community doesn't have those same values, and when the divide between groups isn't as negative I haven't seen the same thing.

    Pretty girls in this highschool either fell in line, or they were threatened, slut shamed, "bullied" mercilessly until they left the school. The rejects tried desperately to be accepted and could never do it. As a result, the area had one of the highest suicide rates in the city, and it was a constant mix of the types of kids.

    The area as well, always tried to keep it quiet. Because many of the parents were former graduates of the school and would never leave that area. Kids who were children of Police sargeants were parts of major ecstasy dealers and were caught with garbage bags full of pills never saw any charges laid against.

    What I meant as well about the american attitude maybe should have been clarified as the "white all-american" attitude as I felt this school where I was at could have been plucked out of our city and thrown into West Virginia or something and wouldn't stand out of place.

    Sorry for the long post. But I know Habsy was looking for "what else could it be" and I just wanted to add that the American ideals of success, beauty, and fame are also here and they do result in teens succumbing to pressure. The difference is Canadian teens crash through abuse of themselves and suicide. The access to guns in the states just allows kids to go out a lot differently and to finally feel like they are being "heard". It's gross but, that is what some kids just want. And doing a school shooting gives them a voice and the power that they can't get any other way.

  10. #77870
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    We have Lemming-like qualities as well...just watch a riot start...so, while we may not understand how it started, once it started, people will copy...good or bad, people will copy.

  11. #77871
    ADMINuteman Habspatrol's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    I think kids that are bullied, can't get laid and are mentally unstable would do these things at greater rates in other countries if they had more access to firearms. I mean, it does still happen sometimes in other countries, just not as often as in the US.

    I bet the ratio of incidents would somewhat align with the ratio of guns in the US compared to other countries.

  12. #77872
    Hall of Famer Hoss's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Habspatrol View Post
    I think kids that are bullied, can't get laid and are mentally unstable would do these things at greater rates in other countries if they had more access to firearms. I mean, it does still happen sometimes in other countries, just not as often as in the US.

    I bet the ratio of incidents would somewhat align with the ratio of guns in the US compared to other countries.
    agreed. when we don't have the access, this anger manifests itself in other ways.. self harm, suicide, isolation.

  13. #77873
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    Which, to Habsy's point is something that should also be addressed further.

    I like that there's a big anti-bullying movement right now. I'm not sure how well it's working, but it needs to continue.

    Even though that might be the root cause, it doesn't mean we shouldn't try to limit the access to the weapons.

    As engrained as guns are in American society... bullying and general teen depression/anger/hate is more engrained and a much bigger hill to climb in human nature.
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  14. #77874
    Hall of Famer Hoss's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    This "anti bullying" movement is an odd one. What we as educators are finding is that the bully's themselves and their bullying parents are the one's using these ideas as a way to excuse their own children's behaviours. First, all arguments and disagreements between children is being called "bullying". "Hey, don't use my pencil" "Mr. H, Steve is bullying me, he won't let me use his pencil".

    And then the previous argument. "Mrs. S, your son took the pencil and stabbed the other kid because he wouldn't share his snack at recess." "Well, let me tell you that other kid bullied my kid earlier this year. I tell my kid to defend himself". "But Mrs. S this is the 5th time we've had your kid in the office for hitting, teasing, fighting....." "That's because he is being bullied, what are your going to do about it".

    That's what is happening. The bully's parents don't ever see what their kid is doing. And the bullied kids still hide because they feel they can't win. Lastly, kids definition of bullying is not clear to them, they just know that if they say that word, they can basically get what they were looking for...... ie the other kid in trouble and support from their parents.

  15. #77875
    Wrong Thinker Extraordinaire Habsy's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    Thatís happening here too Hoss, even it the private schools. Bullying is very real and these parents are diminishing it by using it as an excuse for their own childís behavior.
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