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Thread: OT: American Politics

  1. #93761
    Wrong Thinker Extraordinaire Habsy's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayward DP View Post
    just throwing bones to his base with little regard for the actual outcomes.

    and yeah, the evangelical love-in with the Jews is weird. maybe it's cause the Arabs (Muslims) hate the Jews? who knows.
    I think it's more than throwing bones to his base. I think it's rooted in ego. I may be wrong but this appears to be a strong arm "I'll do what I want" move by Trump. He seems to enjoy thumbing his nose at the world.
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    Canadiens & 'News & Views' Moderator TheCountofMonteCristo's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Altair View Post
    The territory has been disputed for what, 50 years?

    Let's face facts, if the Palestians wanted a peace deal with Israel that respected both sides that deal would be done by now.

    This teaches a valueble lesson. Negotiate in good faith in a timely manner or shit is only going to get worse.
    Neither party is without blame there. Israel consistently builds settlements in the West Bank and then claims it is Jewish territory.
    "The next game is the test unless we win" CanadienFan

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    Wrong Thinker Extraordinaire Habsy's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Altair View Post
    Man, I hope people like Zeke weren't around for the creation of Israel.

    Turns out, the CIA warned Truman that there would be some violence between Jews and Arabs should Israel become a country. Truman did it anyways. A good precedent
    Zeke still calls it Judea.
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  4. #93764
    Legend zeke's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Altair View Post
    Man, I hope people like Zeke weren't around for the creation of Israel.

    Turns out, the CIA warned Truman that there would be some violence between Jews and Arabs should Israel become a country. Truman did it anyways. A good precedent
    there's lots of displaced peoples in the world. doesn't seem like we go around annexing countries for all of them.
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  5. #93765
    Canadiens & 'News & Views' Moderator TheCountofMonteCristo's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    Many forget that 100 years ago, there were very few jews in what is now Israel. Both people deserve a country.
    "The next game is the test unless we win" CanadienFan

    Donald Trump, the gift that keeps on giving.

  6. #93766
    Legend zeke's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    If it was the right thing to do, why aren't we handing the americas back to the natives?
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  7. #93767
    Hall of Famer Wayward DP's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Altair View Post
    Is he a giant dickwad? Sure.

    Still less of a dickward that anybody else in the region. Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iraq, turkey, Iran, all have/had bigger dickwad leaders and governments.

    To single out netanyahu for being a dickwad is dumb.
    Just because Netanyahu was democratically elected does not mean he is not an impediment to the peace process.

    And we're not comparing Middle Eastern leaders. Netanyahu has, if anything, done everything he can to make a peaceful solution less likely. It is perfectly legitimate to criticize him. Especially given the race-baiting tactics he used to get re-elected. He consistently makes the situation worse, not better.

  8. #93768
    Legend zeke's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    yep. Bibi has no interest in peace. that doesn't help him get re-elected.
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    Hall of Famer Wayward DP's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by zeke View Post
    yep. Bibi has no interest in peace. that doesn't help him get re-elected.
    his coalition is also beholden to the lunatic fringes. and Israeli society is becoming increasingly polarized between the secular mainstream and the religious lunatic fringe (which, sadly, wields disproportionate power in governing).

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    Legend Altair's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCountofMonteCristo View Post
    Neither party is without blame there. Israel consistently builds settlements in the West Bank and then claims it is Jewish territory.
    Yes, they do. One side builds setrlements, the other side teaches entire generations that the other side is evil and doesn't deserve to exist while worshiping people who blow up innocents and launch missiles from schools into civilian areas.

    The fact of the matter is that the palestinians had a state all but gift wrapped for them but let it fall apart. So anything that happens now is rooted in that.

    Fact of the matter is Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. They aren't giving it up. This only reflects reality.
    No one loves the warrior until the enemy is at the gate.

    Quote Originally Posted by zeke View Post
    An idiot grunt like habitants should be enraged.

  11. #93771
    Legend LeafGm's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayward DP View Post
    his coalition is also beholden to the lunatic fringes. and Israeli society is becoming increasingly polarized between the secular mainstream and the religious lunatic fringe (which, sadly, wields disproportionate power in governing).
    That sounds somewhat familiar.
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  12. #93772
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Altair View Post
    Yes, they do. One side builds setrlements, the other side teaches entire generations that the other side is evil and doesn't deserve to exist while worshiping people who blow up innocents and launch missiles from schools into civilian areas.

    The fact of the matter is that the palestinians had a state all but gift wrapped for them but let it fall apart. So anything that happens now is rooted in that.

    Fact of the matter is Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. They aren't giving it up. This only reflects reality.
    the US / britain went and carved out a chunk of the middle east for itself, including the arab world's holiest city, because some people had lived there a thousand years earlier. all while robbing the region of its oil and fomenting permanent war in the region.

    no matter what the US says or does, the arab world is never going to just sit there and take it.
    Last edited by zeke; 12-06-2017 at 04:18 PM.
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayward DP View Post
    Just because Netanyahu was democratically elected does not mean he is not an impediment to the peace process.

    And we're not comparing Middle Eastern leaders. Netanyahu has, if anything, done everything he can to make a peaceful solution less likely. It is perfectly legitimate to criticize him. Especially given the race-baiting tactics he used to get re-elected. He consistently makes the situation worse, not better.
    Abbas has not done anything to help the peace process. There is no peace process. Every day pushes the chance of a two state solution more into the realm of fantasy. Israel tried everything in its power to come to a deal and the Palestinians let it fail, they aren't trying anymore and netanyahu is the democratic representation of that.

    The situation is shot, clinton came the closest of any president to get a deal done, 4 terms of bush and obama haven't yielded shit all, there isn't anything left to ruin.

    Trump acknowledging reality doesn't change that.
    No one loves the warrior until the enemy is at the gate.

    Quote Originally Posted by zeke View Post
    An idiot grunt like habitants should be enraged.

  14. #93774
    Wrong Thinker Extraordinaire Habsy's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    Palestine paying murderers families doesn't help either.
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    Hall of Famer Wayward DP's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Altair View Post
    Abbas has not done anything to help the peace process. There is no peace process. Every day pushes the chance of a two state solution more into the realm of fantasy. Israel tried everything in its power to come to a deal and the Palestinians let it fail, they aren't trying anymore and netanyahu is the democratic representation of that.

    The situation is shot, clinton came the closest of any president to get a deal done, 4 terms of bush and obama haven't yielded shit all, there isn't anything left to ruin.

    Trump acknowledging reality doesn't change that.
    Again, I'm not interested in comparing relative blameworthiness. You cannot argue in good faith that Bibi has undertaken serious efforts to pursue a peaceful resolution.

    I don't disagree that Abbas should also be blamed for the failure of the peace process - he should. Israel has made good faith efforts in the past that have come up short for various reasons.

    But do you really think Trump cares about these kinds of nuances?

    Trump acknowledging reality may well change a lot - just wait for the protests and bloodshed, cause they're coming.

  16. #93776
    Hall of Famer Wayward DP's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by zeke View Post
    the US / britain went and carved out a chunk of the middle east for itself, including the arab world's holiest city, because some people had lived there a thousand years earlier. all while robbing the region of its oil and fomenting permanent war in the region.

    no matter what the US says or does, the arab world is never going to just sit there and take it.
    there was also that whole Holocaust thing too. may have influenced what happened.

  17. #93777
    Legend Altair's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayward DP View Post
    Again, I'm not interested in comparing relative blameworthiness. You cannot argue in good faith that Bibi has undertaken serious efforts to pursue a peaceful resolution.

    I don't disagree that Abbas should also be blamed for the failure of the peace process - he should. Israel has made good faith efforts in the past that have come up short for various reasons.

    But do you really think Trump cares about these kinds of nuances?

    Trump acknowledging reality may well change a lot - just wait for the protests and bloodshed, cause they're coming.
    The threat of protest and bloodshed shouldn't be a reason to not do the right thing.

    If Truman had listened to the CIA when they said that there would a be conflict between jews and arabs if they created Israel there wouldn't be a Israel today.

    Back to your point of relative blameworthiness, you're right. Neither side has helped trying to find a peaceful resolution. But one side has all the power and the other side has none, and less with each passing day. Israel can afford to go along business as usual, the Palestinians cannot, but they are no closer to making a serious effort to resolve the situation. That's on them. If their collective situation continues to worsen that's what they get for inept leadership.
    No one loves the warrior until the enemy is at the gate.

    Quote Originally Posted by zeke View Post
    An idiot grunt like habitants should be enraged.

  18. #93778
    Wayward Ditch Pig MindzEye's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...ripped-n827031


    WASHINGTON — Donald Trump was just 11 minutes into his presidency when his choice for national security adviser, Michael Flynn, texted a former business partner to say an ambitious U.S. collaboration with Russia to build nuclear reactors in the Middle East was "good to go," according to a new whistleblower account.

    As Trump delivered his inaugural address, says the unnamed whistleblower, Flynn directed Alex Copson, managing director of ACU Strategic Partners, to inform their business partners "to put things in place."

    The whistleblower also says that Flynn assured Copson that U.S. sanctions on Russia that could block the nuclear project would be "ripped up" once Trump was inside the White House.

    The account from the anonymous whistleblower is detailed in a new letter from the top Democrat on the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee to his Republican counterpart asking that the panel subpoena Flynn, Copson, the White House and others involved in the alleged plan.
    The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude larger than is required to produce it.

  19. #93779
    Hall of Famer Wayward DP's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Altair View Post
    The threat of protest and bloodshed shouldn't be a reason to not do the right thing.

    If Truman had listened to the CIA when they said that there would a be conflict between jews and arabs if they created Israel there wouldn't be a Israel today.

    Back to your point of relative blameworthiness, you're right. Neither side has helped trying to find a peaceful resolution. But one side has all the power and the other side has none, and less with each passing day. Israel can afford to go along business as usual, the Palestinians cannot, but they are no closer to making a serious effort to resolve the situation. That's on them. If their collective situation continues to worsen that's what they get for inept leadership.
    I would argue that, at this time, the internal divisions within both Israel and among the Palestinians are such that neither side is actually in a position to pursue meaningful peace.

    Just a bloody cluster-**** of a situation that Trump just turned the temperature up on. Not to mention, setting up a US embassy in Jerusalem is a large obstacle to any potential peace process.

  20. #93780
    Legend Altair's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT: American Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayward DP View Post
    there was also that whole Holocaust thing too. may have influenced what happened.
    Also completely ignoring that it was world war 1 and the Ottomans siding with the central powers that lead to France and Britain controlling most of the middle east in the first place.

    Fact of the matter was that Britain and the US didn't carve out israel from muslim lands, the land was technically British at the time.

    Ironically, had the Arab world just accepted Israel instead of repeatedly waging war against it, Israel today would be smaller, and there would be a Palestinian state today, and it would have been founded alongside Israel in 1948. If the arab world, and Palestine in particular, want to continue with their inept leadership making stupid decisions for the rest of time, so be it. Their situation will only worsen and they have nobody to blame for it but themselves.
    No one loves the warrior until the enemy is at the gate.

    Quote Originally Posted by zeke View Post
    An idiot grunt like habitants should be enraged.

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