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OT: American Politics

Altair said:
I'll bite. Population of the USA. 325 million.

Combined population of Germany, France, Spain, Canada, Italy, Great Britain is 355 million.

Why do you think social media, mental health, online bullying, parental neglect, ect isn't producing the same amount of violence as the US despite having a greater combined population as the USA?
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Even if we accept that the US is worse than the others in your list in all of those issues, it would only be marginally worse. The US isn't the ****ing Congo, or North Korea. So if the prevalence was even only 25% more likely in the US than in that other group of countries I would say that maybe the other side of this conversation is on to something.

But it's not. In the last 20 years, the US has had ~188 school shootings (I left out things like faculty bringing guns to school and shooting other faculty members, or faculty members being shot by angry spouses and such).

Canada has 3. Germany has 3. I don't feel like doing the rest of the leg work, but I'd be surprised if that group of countries hit more than 25 school shootings in the last 25 years with a similar population as the US has.

Even if we extend this out to school killings in general, whatever the weapon (guns, knives, arson, explosives, etc) and the US has the only 3 in the world this year, and 12 of the last 24 in the world since 2012.

Nah Habsy, this is entirely at the feet of your "freedom" and the irresponsibility of people who for decades have angrily resisted reasonable controls on guns in your society. If you're in that group of irresponsible people, then own it.
 
Habsy said:
I’d like to see specific numbers on all of it in comparison. I’ve been surfing but not really finding it.
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I had the stark numbers in a tweet few days ago but you would have called my biased and obsessed if I posted it.
 
So ignoring the root cause of wanting to kill people is fine with you because, you know, guns. Even if guns were restricted I’d want to know why there’s a penchant towards ending people’s lives over perceived slights.

This is why the conversation never goes anywhere.
 
Habsy said:
Would you know of any study revolving around parenting, specifically the nuclear family, comparing the statistics of different countries? I’m genuinely curious as to what the difference is.
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69% of American kids are raised by two parents. Single parent and non parental guardians (grandparents, foster, etc) are included in the 31%

Canada tracks their statistics differently than the US, but it looks like Canada is in the 75% range.

Germany is at 70%, UK is at 68%

So the US isn't a snowflake in this regard.

Is it easier to get a gun in the US? Absolutely. What is driving these kids to even want to kill other kids is my question?
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I'd argue that American kids aren't special. They just have much, much easier access to weapons that allow them to act out their angry impulses in a severity not available to kids in other countries.

When you look at the variables that gun proponents argue at the problem, they track similarly to kids in other countries. American kids aren't special. They aren't angrier, or more likely to become mentally ill. They're not raised in more poverty, they're not raised in lesser family units, etc, etc, etc.

They have special access to force multiplying weapons. It's the only true stand out variable. Nothing else explains why they're 5-6x more likely to bring a gun to school and start blasting.
 
zeke said:
I had the stark numbers in a tweet few days ago but you would have called my biased and obsessed if I posted it.
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There have been plenty that you’ve posted where I haven’t but please, continue thinking so.
 
Habsy said:
Would you know of any study revolving around parenting, specifically the nuclear family, comparing the statistics of different countries? I’m genuinely curious as to what the difference is. Is it easier to get a gun in the US? Absolutely. What is driving these kids to even want to kill other kids is my question? When I was younger and you had a serious issue with someone you got into a scrap. It usually sorted itself out after that. Today it seems these unstable kids just think “**** it, I’m going to kill them and ruin the lives of their families and my own too”.

I just don’t get what goes through their minds.
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I think basically these are kids who would usually just attempt suicide in a public way but now figure they can get more attention by taking others down with them.
 
Habsy said:
So ignoring the root cause of wanting to kill people is fine with you because, you know, guns. Even if guns were restricted I’d want to know why there’s a penchant towards ending people’s lives over perceived slights.
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If we go by the numbers, about 15% of this is a mental health issue. 85% is a gun control issue.

This is why the conversation never goes anywhere.
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It's really not. It's that the truth offends 2nd amendment strokers, and they jam their fingers in their ears. The data is telling them the truth and they just don't want to hear it.
 
MindzEye said:
69% of American kids are raised by two parents. Single parent and non parental guardians (grandparents, foster, etc) are included in the 31%

Canada tracks their statistics differently than the US, but it looks like Canada is in the 75% range.

Germany is at 70%, UK is at 68%

So the US isn't a snowflake in this regard.



I'd argue that American kids aren't special. They just have much, much easier access to weapons that allow them to act out their angry impulses in a severity not available to kids in other countries.

When you look at the variables that gun proponents argue at the problem, they track similarly to kids in other countries. American kids aren't special. They aren't angrier, or more likely to become mentally ill. They're not raised in more poverty, they're not raised in lesser family units, etc, etc, etc.

They have special access to force multiplying weapons. It's the only true stand out variable. Nothing else explains why they're 5-6x more likely to bring a gun to school and start blasting.
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I respect the emboldening guns give people argument but it still doesn’t get to the root issue. Are you certain other countries would have the same problem if their gun laws were the same as the USA? I’m not so sure about that. There is a factor that’s inherently different in the US aside from the ease of access to guns. I’d love to find out what that is.
 
zeke said:
I think basically these are kids who would usually just attempt suicide in a public way but now figure they can get more attention by taking others down with them.
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I hadn’t thought of that. That’s horrific.
 
Habsy said:
I respect the emboldening guns give people argument but it still doesn’t get to the root issue. Are you certain other countries would have the same problem if their gun laws were the same as the USA? I’m not so sure about that. There is a factor that’s inherently different in the US aside from the ease of access to guns. I’d love to find out what that is .
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Ignoring the one that is staring everyone in the face?

Meh.
 
Habsy said:
I respect the emboldening guns give people argument but it still doesn’t get to the root issue. Are you certain other countries would have the same problem if their gun laws were the same as the USA? I’m not so sure about that. There is a factor that’s inherently different in the US aside from the ease of access to guns. I’d love to find out what that is.
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You're right, guns aren't the root cause in teenage angst, anger and mental health issues.

But they absolutely are the root cause in teenagers using guns to kill people at 500% the prevalence seen in societies with reasonable restrictions on gun ownership.

Look into all the variables you want, the US is only a snowflake in one of them.
 
so the Trump admin institutes a horrific policy of taking children away from their parents at the border.....and as outrage starts to spread....trump decides to literally blame Obama for it:

https://twitter.com/waltshaub/status/1000403309079998464


the lying is getting much much worse, and much much bigger. he thinks he can get away with even the most blatant lie, and unfortunately he may be right.
 
zeke said:
just a theory...but makes plenty of sense to me.
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it seems that teen suicides have risen over the last 10yrs...but not much different than what they were 20-30yrs ago. so if we use suicide as a proxy for mental health then mental health doesn't seem to be unusually high:

5984ab4715000021008b521c.gif
 
zeke said:
it seems that teen suicides have risen over the last 10yrs...but not much different than what they were 20-30yrs ago. so if we use suicide as a proxy for mental health then mental health doesn't seem to be unusually high:

5984ab4715000021008b521c.gif
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Because this isn't a mental health thing.

Every country has people with mental health challenges. Not every country has people with mental health issues having easy access to guns.

The one modern western country that does has 5 percent of the world population and 31 percent of the worlds mass shootings.

There is no hidden nefarious reason, its plain as day. The simplest answer is often the right one, America has a gun problem due to lax gun laws.

People die because of it. Simple.
 
I’d like to see a correlation between education levels as well. Yes, controlling guns will no doubt lessen school shootings but I still want to know why American kids think that’s the solution to their angst.
 
You're reaching man. Pick your social variable and even if US society is marginally worse than other western nations in said, they're not so much worse than it explains 500-600% increases in gun violence.

Well, except for one.
 
MindzEye said:
You're reaching man. Pick your social variable and even if US society is marginally worse than other western nations in said, they're not so much worse than it explains 500-600% increases in gun violence.

Well, except for one.
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Yup.

Simplest explanation is that American kids have too much easy access to guns.

Every other variable is really just a distraction away from the fact that American kids, and American society has far too much easy access to guns.
 
An even better method of looking at the problem is this:

American kids kill each other with guns at 500-600% the rate kids in other western nations do

American adults kill each other with guns at 500-600% the rate adults in other western nations do


The kids aren't special, they're just tracking pretty much perfectly with their broader society. The society isn't special either. It has some troublesome aspects (GINI coefficient is higher than you want out of a western nation, but not ridiculously so). US poverty isn't significantly higher than other countries (both Germany and the US have poverty rates of 15%), etc. Go down the list of factors you would assume could cause a rise in gun violence and the US isn't an outlier. Aside from one. Gun ownership rates, level of restrictions on gun owners, etc, etc. In that, they're a massive outlier. It's the only variable they're an outlier in.
 
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