OT: American Politics

I think most of us are quietly hoping for the big smoking gun to show up so that we can see America get back on the side of sanity. It has been a slow burn with momentum building. But you are right...it may fizzle out in the end leaving us all feeling frustrated.

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One thing zeke said rings with some truth, the GOP is ****ing up enough that it really doesn't matter who's currently in the WH, Trump or Pence I mean.

Tax breaks for the important things in life.

The USA is done.

This bill should have caused mass protests in major cities, but nothing. The people have given up.

it's amazing that someone who has been dismissing the russia story as fake news from the start is now, after four members of the president's team have been indicted, and one day after his natsec flipped, accusing us of "overblowing" the story.

Habsy said:

What story exactly? Do you really think Flynn lying to the FBI is a big deal?

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Why do you keep repeating this as if it's all that Flynn actually did? It's almost like you miss the gravity of Flynn agreeing to plead guilty to a charge that carries a max 5 year prison sentence. He didn't do that to get out of a speeding ticket.

Secondly, defensive counsel will be able to rip Flynn apart now. Once you make a deal like that, especially protecting your son, you're no longer a credible witness.

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Unless he has documentation (emails, journals, notes, etc). Defence counsel won't be able to do much with that aside from trying to get it excluded for whatever esoteric legal reason they conjure up. It's pretty reasonable to assume that Mueller knows stand alone testimony from Flynn won't be worth much at all when he takes his shot at the throne. He didn't let Flynn off the hook for a bit of hearsay testimony at Trump's trial.

PlayerToBeNamedLater said:

The USA is done.

This bill should have caused mass protests in major cities, but nothing. The people have given up.

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not over yet. nobody has read the bill. but they have to now recon it with a house bill and vote again in a few days.

and even then, maybe people are realizing that protests don't matter - the only thing that matters is voting.

Habsy said:

Then you don't know Washington. This is getting litigated in the court of public opinion.

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Actually, it's not. Not to say that there isn't major media attention given to each move, but the investigation itself seems to be taking a page out of the Lou Lamierello playbook. They're slapping bracelets on people before anyone is the wiser here. We're finding out about major interviews (Kushner, etc) days after they occur. There has been minimal to no leakage from the investigation, ABC ****ing up hard seems to be additional proof of that.

They know they'll never get Trump on anything illegal

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lol wut? They have Trump dead to rights on obstruction if they want it, with his own words in a televised ****ing interview providing everything they would need to get an indictment and then just wait for the twat to perjure the shit out of himself.

That they're not shooting for low hanging fruit when that is on a platter for them is telling.

They're looking for impeachment, which is political not criminal.

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Yes and no. They're looking for impeachment because the constitution makes it very hard to hang criminal charges on a sitting President, not because there aren't criminal charges to be hung.

In order to do so the Dems need to flip the house and Senate, you do that through convincing people something is there, even if it isn't.

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What I don't get here, and I'm not arguing that there isn't a distinctly political aspect to all of this, (as is expected in the investigation of the most powerful political cabal in the country at the moment) is why you think that Mueller would go along with this specifically to benefit the Democrats politically. He's a lifelong Republican who worked with the who's who of Reagan and Bush('s) era Republicans. Nothing about the guy suggests that he's interested in anything aside from upholding the law.

zeke said:

it's amazing that someone who has been dismissing the russia story as fake news from the start is now, after four members of the president's team have been indicted, and one day after his natsec flipped, accusing us of "overblowing" the story.

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and continues to call it a witch hunt when all of the indictments have been directly related to the stated scope of the investigation.

Something else that's interesting out of the Flynn indictment is that Mueller has structured the plea offer in such a way to make it pardon proof:

https://www.justice.gov/file/1015121/download

page 5, section 8(g) and page 6, Section 9(b)

Basically, Flynn isn't to be sentenced until after Trump is out of office (can't pardon a crime that a sentence hasn't been laid down for) and all charges being waived snap back into place if the sentence is vacated for any reason and can be tried at the state level (which can't be pardoned by the President).

It sure looks like the dream team has figured out how to structure these deals in such a way that Trump can't get his people out.

Another really interesting aspect of the Flynn plea is that Flynn broke partially because he was at the end of his financial rope. Flynn had put his house up for sale largely due to his mounting legal costs. How many people involved in all of this are going to see that and question if Donnie really has their back?

It is a witch hunt when they delve into areas not pertinent, which they have.

I still see a heck of a lot of smoke and little fire. You guys continuously run with the AHA! moment for every single thing that is reported regardless of veracity.

If the endgame is nailing Trump I think you'll all be disappointed. If you're desired result is something else, I'd ask that you clarify what it is your actually hoping for in all this? Nailing Flynn? A first year prosecutor could do that with his stupidity.

Habsy said:

Flipping anyone is only a big move if they have actual evidence. Time will tell.

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Well, of course. That’s the whole point, especially since Mueller could have come down much harder on Flynn.

I think most people want Mueller to uncover what actually happened with Russia and the election and hold whoever is responsible accountable.

Not sure why someone would start from the position that nothing happened based on the evidence so far.


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MindzEye said:

Something else that's interesting out of the Flynn indictment is that Mueller has structured the plea offer in such a way to make it pardon proof:

https://www.justice.gov/file/1015121/download

page 5, section 8(g) and page 6, Section 9(b)

Basically, Flynn isn't to be sentenced until after Trump is out of office (can't pardon a crime that a sentence hasn't been laid down for) and all charges being waived snap back into place if the sentence is vacated for any reason and can be tried at the state level (which can't be pardoned by the President).

It sure looks like the dream team has figured out how to structure these deals in such a way that Trump can't get his people out.

Another really interesting aspect of the Flynn plea is that Flynn broke partially because he was at the end of his financial rope. Flynn had put his house up for sale largely due to his mounting legal costs. How many people involved in all of this are going to see that and question if Donnie really has their back?

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Nope...

In 1866, the Supreme Court ruled in Ex parte Garland that the pardon power "extends to every offence known to the law, and may be exercised at any time after its commission, either before legal proceedings are taken, or during their pendency, or after conviction and judgment." (In that case, a former Confederate senator successfully petitioned the court to uphold a pardon that prevented him from being disbarred.) Generally speaking, once an act has been committed, the president can issue a pardon at any time—regardless of whether charges have even been filed.

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lmao the genius in chief just tweeted that he knew flynn had committed a crime at the time he pressured comey to drop the case (and then fired him).

he's a freaking moron.

leafman101 said:

I think most people want Mueller to uncover what actually happened with Russia and the election and hold whoever is responsible accountable.

Not sure why someone would start from the position that nothing happened based on the evidence so far.


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Of course something happened.

The Dems started this Trump collusion stuff to handcuff him though. I don't think the people with Trump Derangement Syndrome want to believe that he didn't directly collude though, they need that for their sanity and justification of his win.

IMHO it's a crock of shit.

Habsy said:

It is a witch hunt when they delve into areas not pertinent, which they have.

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You keep repeating this, but provide no evidence to support your point. Every indictment has been directly related to the stated scope of the investigation.

I still see a heck of a lot of smoke and little fire.

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In fairness, you've been about as wrong in your predictions regarding this matter as you could be, every step along the way.

You guys continuously run with the AHA! moment for every single thing that is reported regardless of veracity.

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I can see why someone with your impression of this whole thing sees it that way, but it's simply not grounded in reality.

If the endgame is nailing Trump I think you'll all be disappointed. If you're desired result is something else, if ask that you clarify what it is your actually hoping for in all this? Nailing Flynn? A first year prosecutor could do that with his stupidity.

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Again, you've been out of touch with the depth of Trump's bullshit since the onset and you've scraped and clawed every inch backwards reality has pushed your arguments.

When Kusher rolls next, are you going to continue with the same?

I'm going to continue with it until I see evidence. You have not provided any yet either. Show me the evidence.