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OT: American Politics

Re: OT: Canadian Politics

corksens said:
Funny you say this, I bet you credit Chretien with keeping Canada united even though 49% of Quebecers wanted out.
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Except that's not remotely what Jays and I are talking about. There's a lot more to breeding unity and love for "crown and country" than simply keeping the country together legally.
 
Re: OT: Canadian Politics

corksens said:
The financial crisis had everything to do with it.
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I've explained this to you with graphs and shit in the past and you refuse to accept it. Now you just make yourself look silly by bleeting a response that you don't understand. The "financial crisis" in Canada can be summed up by one very apt factoid: Canada was out of technical recession before the first "Economic Action Plan" dollar hit the economy.
 
Re: OT: Canadian Politics

Instead we asserted a moral authority on issues but lack the muscle to back it up.
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Surely I wasn't alone in seeing the ridiculousness of Harper trying to chastise Putin in the press on numerous occasions.
 
Re: OT: Canadian Politics

MindzEye said:
It's a good critique. There's a lot of cranky people in Alberta right now concerning the federal election and each one I've come across in conversation I've asked a similar question: "What did Harper do?"

Nobody has given me any sort of answer beyond some minimal tax relief, fighting terrorists with 6 jets, etc, etc. All really small shit.
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Yeah I've got a buddy in Alberta going on about Trudeau being a puppet cause he "pulled the plug on Syria" and that cost us the Keystone pipeline. Whining that Trudeau doesn't have the balls to stand up to the US like the old government did.
 
Re: OT: Canadian Politics

MindzEye said:
Surely I wasn't alone in seeing the ridiculousness of Harper trying to chastise Putin in the press on numerous occasions.
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Well, it's absurd for Canadians to threaten Russians at all. We simply lack that capability. But, one area where Harper could have spent money (and not angered his base), delivered reasonable stimulus spending and improved Canadian diplomatic standing around the world would have been by improving and modernizing Canadian military capability.
 
Re: OT: Canadian Politics

IrishWolfman said:
I said it to someone immediately after the Election. To Stephen Harper's dismay, history is likely to regard Brian Mulroney as the superior Prime Minister.
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No kidding. Not even close. NAFTA. GST. MONTREAL PROTOCOL.

That makes for a strong legacy (even better if Meech wasn't harpooned by a few dissidents).

His achilles heal has always been his sleaze factor, including paper bags stuffed with $1000 dollar bills.
 
Re: OT: Canadian Politics

IrishWolfman said:
Well, it's absurd for Canadians to threaten Russians at all. We simply lack that capability. But, one area where Harper could have spent money (and not angered his base), delivered reasonable stimulus spending and improved Canadian diplomatic standing around the world would have been by improving and modernizing Canadian military capability.
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Yep. We have our own military grade shipbuilders on the east coast. We have armoured car manufacturers that are good enough for the Saudi's, in southern Ontario...if you want stimulus, and a "punch above it's weight" military, that would have been a nice place to start. 2 birds, meet 1 stone.
 
Re: OT: Canadian Politics

Habspatrol said:
Yeah I've got a buddy in Alberta going on about Trudeau being a puppet cause he "pulled the plug on Syria" and that cost us the Keystone pipeline. Whining that Trudeau doesn't have the balls to stand up to the US like the old government did.
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For numerous reasons, I'm really hoping Energy East happens. Aside from the huge bump my industry (and with it, the Alberta economy) would receive from it, just seeing the Alberta boys spin themselves dizzy trying to explain something like this happening under Trudeau would be worth the price of admission.
 
Re: OT: Canadian Politics

MindzEye said:
Except that's not remotely what Jays and I are talking about. There's a lot more to breeding unity and love for "crown and country" than simply keeping the country together legally.
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It's funny you say this, because Scots have always historically contributed to the British Empire economically and militarily at a proportional rate far above their share of the UK population.
 
Re: OT: Canadian Politics

MindzEye said:
Yep. We have our own military grade shipbuilders on the east coast. We have armoured car manufacturers that are good enough for the Saudi's, in southern Ontario...if you want stimulus, and a "punch above it's weight" military, that would have been a nice place to start. 2 birds, meet 1 stone.
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Agreed wholeheartedly. Although I will say that I would certainly not be opposed to simply handing our shipbuilding contracts off to a British, American, or South Korean firm, because of the potential savings.
 
Re: OT: Canadian Politics

JaysCyYoung said:
Agreed wholeheartedly. Although I will say that I would certainly not be opposed to simply handing our shipbuilding contracts off to a British, American, or South Korean firm, because of the potential savings.
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But then you're not feeling the benefit of the economic activity within the country.
 
Re: OT: Canadian Politics

If we can actually gets things constructed in this country for once without fifty parliamentary hearings and countless bureaucratic red tape ala the multiple helicopter fiascoes, I'll be fine with an in-Canada solution.

Just get the damn things built for once. It shouldn't be this hard. It isn't in other countries.
 
Re: OT: Canadian Politics

MindzEye said:
By choice?
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Scotland is basically a microcosm of Northern Ireland in a lot of respects. The Scots that are pro-monarchy are REALLY pro-monarchy (as much or more than any Englishman). The Scots that are anti-monarchy, are REALLY anti-monarchy.

But technically, yes, by choice. James I (VI) was a Scot after all. The Act of Union was passed by both parliamentary bodies.
 
Re: OT: Canadian Politics

The passing of which led to martial law being instituted because of civil unrest....

Great example.
 
Re: OT: Canadian Politics

It's lasted over 400 years and been wildly successful overall, so clearly something is working. Yes, it is a great example.
 
Re: OT: Canadian Politics

corksens said:
One lesson I hope we learn is that the Conservative party isn't some knuckle-dragging social conservatism old boys club. No change to gay marriage, no abortion talk...the whole "secret agenda" line should be effectively dead assuming they don't pick some wildly regressive new leader.

All of this recent talk about Trudeau's cabinet ignores that the Conservative party over the past 10 years has had a record number of women and visible minorities. It never got talked about.
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That's because they know how to read polls. These are loser issues with the electorate. Big chunks (whoops!) of the base are unhappy about all this.
 
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Re: OT: Canadian Politics

The monarchy debate is pointless. It makes no difference, one way or another. Even if you have republican sympathiies, why die on that hill? It would be non stop shrieking from monarchist nutters for a pointless exercise.

Meh.
 
Re: OT: Canadian Politics

IrishWolfman said:
Harper's lack of a serious, long term contribution to the Canadian project is troubling. As has been pointed out, even several of the major accomplishments like reducing the GST and introducing income splitting are things that drive fiscal conservatives (and many others) absolutely insane because they run counter to the conservative desire for a simpler, more efficient tax code.


In the long run, I think history will see Harper as a Tory equivalent of Louis St. Laurent. A capable caretaker, a skilled campaigner and a presence lacking charisma. A solid but uninspiring record.

I said it to someone immediately after the Election. To Stephen Harper's dismay, history is likely to regard Brian Mulroney as the superior Prime Minister.
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I agree with this except that I would compare Harper more to Chretien than I would St. Laurent. Neither Harper or Chretien really had a "Repatriate the Constitution" or "Free Trade Agreement" moment that Trudeau or Mulroney had. Instead they will be more famous for handling a problem that really wasn't their making but was their to clean up, such as "deficit slaying" or "overseeing stimulus in the face of a banking meltdown". Ironically I think that both Harper and Chretien would have wanted to trade problems if given the chance.

Fifty years from now we'll probably have more nice things to say about Mulroney's economic changes such as Free Trade and the Transition to the GST as a value add tax, than we will the Tax Free Savings accounts or the failed attempt at getting the Keystone Pipeline built. However I don't think Harper ever did anything as corrupt as forgetting about declaring the thousands of dollars he received from an arms dealer and that includes the way he handled Mike Duffy.
 
Re: OT: Canadian Politics

There's a widely accepted top tier of Canadian Prime Ministers. It includes: MacDonald, Laurier and MacKenzie King.

Then there's a second tier that tends to include Trudeau, Mulroney and Pearson.

What remains to be seen (and I believe that we are too close, historically, to give an unbiased opinion of the performance of either man) is whether Chretien or Harper can join that second grouping.
 
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