The ****ing Off Season thread
- Thread starter MindzEye
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number17
Mod Squad
Not in the 'what have you done for me in the past 18 months?' NHL ... I mean, if all we look at is coaching record, Don Cherry should still have a coaching job, right?
The only loophole to that theory is, Carlyle's poor puck possession, poor defense, and pook PK traits happened with another team previously ... and that team is possibly heading to the WCF tonight under another coach. I don't see any Ducks fans complaining about personnel issue.
Do the Leafs have the best defensive players? No, of course not ... and no young teams is full of great defensive players anyways. It's up to the coach to coach his young players on their defensive assignment, to teach them the system, and, to choose a system that works for his team.
And, judging from how historically bad the Leafs were outshot past season, I find it hard to blame the players only. That screams coaching issue.
mbow30
Spudmeister Supreme
Not in the 'what have you done for me in the past 18 months?' NHL ... I mean, if all we look at is coaching record, Don Cherry should still have a coaching job, right?
don cherry is 80 years old and hasn't coached at the professional level since 1980.
randy carlyle has won a cup in the past decade and has posted a winning record as a coach in each of the past two seasons.
well, anaheim is a better team now than when carlyle was fired - they were obviously hurt bad by getzlaf and perry's performance in 11-12, but their d at that time was young, inexperienced and pretty pedestrian. i.e. in carlyle's final season there they were playing the 21-22 year old sbisa 18 mpg on the second unit... he's currently on the third pair.
but that's really besides the point. anaheim wasn't a poor defensive team under carlyle. i'm not sure where that comes from. their pk was up and down -- anywhere from 5th to 24th under carlyle. of course, the leafs boasted one of the best pk's in the league last year.
actually the pk might illustrate one problem with carlyle -- an unwillingness to adapt when something that has worked stops working. in his first season in anaheim the pk ranked 5th. in his first season in toronto it ranked second.
of course, there could be numerous other explanations. and it seems that he has shown a willingness to adapt. at least, enogh of a willingness to appease shanahan.
the third problem is that you rest on the assumption that high corsi = success when, while corsi is an indicator of successful teams it is not a harbinger of success. if anything, those ducks teams disprove the notion that a team needs to be a high corsi team to be a winner.
well, he had a young, offensive-minded defense and he adopted a system that is supposed to favour puck movers.
i think you're letting the players off the hook way too easily here. these guys pulled the same crap under wilson. poor effort on the defensive side, blown coverage and bad turnovers. and that was when they were also a higher coris team.
the truth is that you can only coach players to do things to the extent that (i) they're capable of doing them and (ii) they're willing to listen. a coach isn't on the ice. the coach can't make decisions for palyers. and a lot of the problems, at least later in the season, were pretty clearly players making poor decisions. franson and phaneuf were turnover machines deep in thier own zone. that has nothing to do with coaching.
again, nobody is blaming the players only.
Pronger84
Active member
Carlyle's a fool then, even I can see why we were outshot so badly.... its a combo of things 1) The Leafs collapsing back in front of the net, leaving the points wide open, that's where a lot of teams will shoot from in hopes of getting a goal through a screen, a tip or a rebound 2) Lack of size along the wall, the Leafs lose a lot of puck battles because of that which means more time spent in their zone chasing the puck 3) Being shitty on faceoffs, again more often then not when you lose the draw your resorting to puck chasing to get it back 4) The way Carlyle isolates the forwards from the D, instructing the forwards to stand far apart forcing the D to make a stretch pass which more often then not gets intercepted or turned over, again resorting to puck chasing. Points 1 and 4 can easily be rectificed through systematic changes, for instance having the forwards pressure the points with speed and aggressivness instead of sitting back and waiting for things to happen, point 4 easily fixable have the forwards be closer to the D, everyone moving their legs and making short passes instead of long bombing it.
mbow30
Spudmeister Supreme
LeafGm
Well-known member
Randy Carlyle posted a winning record this past year? Bull shit. He posted the 12th best record in the Eastern conference, and finished 23rd overall in the NHL.
And if we call all the shootout "wins" the ties that they, in fact, really are, then he posted a record of 29-36-17.
And if we call all the shootout "wins" the ties that they, in fact, really are, then he posted a record of 29-36-17.
leafman101
Well-known member
ForeverTML
Active member
ForeverTML
Active member
This...
mbow30
Spudmeister Supreme
you can play semantics if you'd like and manipulate wins and losses.
fact is.. the leafs posted a record over .500. they had 84 points in 82 games.
period. if you have an issue with how wins are calculated... write a letter to the league.
in 2012-13, i.e. last season -- seeing as that the 13-14 season is not yet complete -- the leafs had the #2 pk in the league... 1/10th of a point out of first.
hockeylover
Well-known member
That's not impressive though...
mbow30
Spudmeister Supreme
who said it's impressive?
it's just context.
the year he was fired/hired by the leafs aside, he has never posted a losing record in 15 seasons as a head coach. people are acting like firing him was a no-brainer. he's been one of the most successful hockey coaches in the world since he stepped behind a bench. and it isn't like 2013-14 was a total disaster for the leafs. there were quite a few good signs (kessel with another big year, bernier emerged as a top notch starter, rielly made the transition into the nhl... even kadri and gardiner, on the whole, had decent seasons for young players given the roles they played), and until mid march they looked to be as safe a bet as anybody to make the playoffs.
nobody is absolving carlyle of blame. nobody is saying that the team would have been unjustified in firing him.
but when you look at the broader picture and not just the collapse this year there are plenty of very good reasons to give carlyle a chance to turn things back around.
it's just context.
the year he was fired/hired by the leafs aside, he has never posted a losing record in 15 seasons as a head coach. people are acting like firing him was a no-brainer. he's been one of the most successful hockey coaches in the world since he stepped behind a bench. and it isn't like 2013-14 was a total disaster for the leafs. there were quite a few good signs (kessel with another big year, bernier emerged as a top notch starter, rielly made the transition into the nhl... even kadri and gardiner, on the whole, had decent seasons for young players given the roles they played), and until mid march they looked to be as safe a bet as anybody to make the playoffs.
nobody is absolving carlyle of blame. nobody is saying that the team would have been unjustified in firing him.
but when you look at the broader picture and not just the collapse this year there are plenty of very good reasons to give carlyle a chance to turn things back around.
Feyd
Well-known member
Apparently Toronto's draft strategy will be different this year:
http://sports.nationalpost.com/2014...pproach-with-prospects-despite-lowly-ranking/
hockeylover
Well-known member
Well, you certainly seem to be using it as a some sort of point in his favour.
Look, there might be reasons to give Carlyle another chance but I don't think any of those reasons are supported by everything else they're saying they want to do. I don't see the logic there whatsoever.
leafman101
Well-known member
ForeverTML
Active member
Im not manipulating anything. Their aggregate win/loss record was below 500. Sure they got 2 points over 0.500, but they lost more than they won.
Speaking of semantics, last I checked, the 13-14 regular season is over - the stats are finalized for all teams. And the leafs were 28th in the league.
mbow30
Spudmeister Supreme
you are.
based on how the league calculates wins and losses the leafs were over .500 this year. based on how carlyle's record is calculated in the record books, they were over .500.
i get that they had a lot of shoot outs wins. but, those are wins. period.
you are either the most dense person in the world or mentally deficient.
simple fact. under carlyle the leafs pk was second in 2012-13. that was obviously the point i was making. you arguing this point on the grounds you are arguing it is ridiculous.
LeafGm
Well-known member
I think the person playing semantics here is the guy claiming that 23rd overall in the NHL, and comfortably out of a playoff spot is a "winning record".