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The ****ing Off Season thread

ForeverTML said:
I really dont know how you can call that decision informed when the results are staring you in your face.

Putting the blame on the assistants made it seem like Randy had nothing to do with the defensive system. He had everything to do with it - why not just ask the assistants to change with Randy, why fire them at all if its as simple as "try to change how you do your job".
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He put blame on Carlyle. They have discussed that he has to change what he has been doing.

You don't like the fact that Carlyle is implementing the changes. Not that there isn't going to be changes to how this team is coached. Assistants were fired to bring in new voices that are on board with how the team wants to play moving forward. But thats not the important move here. Changing the way the team plays is the important move.

You can't say that the results are flying in the face of Shanahan's conclusions on this team. He said their system needed to change. Its changing. Those are perfectly aligned.

Whether Carlyle is implementing those changes or someone else, they're happening.
 
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This discussion makes me feel like we're all stuck in the novel 1984.

"Don't worry, we're making big changes by not changing!"
 
If they are doing things differently that is changing.

The idea that new people are a prerequisite to change occurring is wrong.
 
Extending Randy and firing his assistants wasn't Shanny's way of pointing blame. It was an act to get the coach and players attention.

First of all, Carlyle was able to hire a single assistant (Dave Farrish) when he was brought aboard, the others were leftovers from the Ron Wilson era.

Carlyle/Nonis will have the summer to put together a solid group of assistants, a group that will be charged with implementing new systems and keeping the players prepared and focused.
 
Yup, so the new assistants will fix the system and save the team, which is something the head coach couldn't do all season!

Rest of the league just didn't get it, the head coach doesn't matter, it's the assistants who determine the success of coaching! In the assistants we trust!
 
number17 said:
Yup, so the new assistants will fix the system and save the team, which is something the head coach couldn't do all season!

Rest of the league just didn't get it, the head coach doesn't matter, it's the assistants who determine the success of coaching! In the assistants we trust!
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you are going way over the top.

maybe farrish was the guy who has always worked out carlyle's D system. maybe they value the work carlyle has done with players like kadri, rielly, gardiner and kessel. maybe they like the way he can bring guys together.

you don't know any of these things.

again... if it doesn't work out. they'll fire him. i guess shanahan just didn't want to throw a cup winning coach who has only had a losing record in one of 15 seasons as a coach in the ihl, ahl and nhl under the bus because of a late season collapse... a year after the team nearly beat the team that went on to represent the east in the cup finals.

carlyle has his warts but he has also had an enormously successful coaching career.
 
Firing all the assistants has been tried before, with other highly successful coaches also. It didn't work then, either.
Maybe this is to send a message to the players, but so would firing the coach AND his assistants. The difference is, if you truly want change in what system is implemented, then the only way to guarantee that is to fire the head coach. Basically, I see this as an endorsement to the system being just fine, but not implemented properly by the assistants. Carlyle is fine, but his assistants suck, is the message.
Sure, Carlyle has a cup. But he got it from a team that was inches away from getting it already. And he was fired from that same team when he couldn't even come close to repeating the success in the few years afterwards. He's not this knight in shining armour. He's a guy who lucked out by getting hired at just the right time once.
And we still have yet to address the rest of the blame - the players. Phaneuf is quickly approaching the day his extended contract kicks in. Let's pray a good deal can be had for him, and, barring that, a search for an actual leader who can take over as a true Captain for this team is on.
If we can't move him before his new deal kicks in, at the very least, the "C" on his shirt should be removed.
 
mbow30 said:
you are going way over the top.

maybe farrish was the guy who has always worked out carlyle's D system. maybe they value the work carlyle has done with players like kadri, rielly, gardiner and kessel. maybe they like the way he can bring guys together.

you don't know any of these things.
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there's a lot of maybe's there bro.

No you're right, neither of us know any of that

You choose to give him the benefit of doubt.

I choose to apply common sense that you can't blame the failure of a defensive system (especially one that goes back to his ANA days) on his assistant coach... especially one that he chose himself.
 
number17 said:
I choose to apply common sense that you can't blame the failure of a defensive system (especially one that goes back to his ANA days) on his assistant coach... especially one that he chose himself.
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But they didn't really. They took the biggest consequences in losing their jobs, but Randy isn't passing the buck and Shanny isn't absolving Carlyle for blame. Shanny was very clear that there needs to be changes to how this team is coached, and if Carlyle didn't agree he would not still be here.

So its not like Carlyle is getting off scott free and back to business as usual. He is being forced to change.

They recognize, and are attempting to solve, the issues with coaching. And that is the important part here.
 
gilmour93forever said:
Saw them having a private dinner together a few weeks back.
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The thought of us taking up $11M in cap space annually on Dave Bolland and David Clarkson for the next six years is pretty horrifying.

Unless the salary cap increases by leaps and bounds, I don't see how we could possibly stay competitive with that much dead cap space.
 
LeafGm said:
The thought of us taking up $11M in cap space annually on Dave Bolland and David Clarkson for the next six years is pretty horrifying.

Unless the salary cap increases by leaps and bounds, I don't see how we could possibly stay competitive with that much dead cap space.
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You can't. All the good teams (Chicago, LA, Anaheim, Montreal, Rangers) have young, cheap prospects they have developed filling in depth roles. Buying those types of players in free agency is a death knell.

Either guys like Holland, Leivo, D'Amigo, Ashton, etc step up or the Leafs need to fire all their scouts and do a way better job drafting.
 
leafman101 said:
But they didn't really. They took the biggest consequences in losing their jobs, but Randy isn't passing the buck and Shanny isn't absolving Carlyle for blame. Shanny was very clear that there needs to be changes to how this team is coached, and if Carlyle didn't agree he would not still be here.

So its not like Carlyle is getting off scott free and back to business as usual. He is being forced to change.

They recognize, and are attempting to solve, the issues with coaching. And that is the important part here.
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It's good Shanny recognizes there's a severe problem with coaching.

And it's very noble of him to think a coach like Carlyle CAN change, despite the problem goes back way before his Leafs days.

I mean, you think Carlyle didn't get the message that he NEEDED TO CHANGE when ANA fired him? Did you think ANA told him "Oh you're doing a fine job coaching the team ... we just feel like a coaching change."??

So it's not like he didn't know he had to change. He knew he had to change when he was fired by ANA, and he once again knew he had to change all of the past season, as admitted by Gordon.

He just COULDN'T!

(and I don't blame him ... when he doesn't even know what's wrong with the team, how can he change?)

But Shanny decides he'll give him another chance to change again ...

Meanwhile, Bylsma hits the job market and we decide to extend our coach's contract.

Is that the best decision for the Leafs team?
 
number17 said:
there's a lot of maybe's there bro.

No you're right, neither of us know any of that

You choose to give him the benefit of doubt.

I choose to apply common sense that you can't blame the failure of a defensive system (especially one that goes back to his ANA days) on his assistant coach... especially one that he chose himself.
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it isn't a matter of giving the benefit of the doubt. carlyle's record speaks for itself. he has proven that he can be a successful coach.

as for your 'common sense' approach... nobody is absolving carlyle of blame. the question is whether he can make the adjustments. they obviously think that he can.

you don't fire your generals because you lost a battle.

it isn't like this team has totally tanked under carlyle. he's gotten a lot of out of most of hi pieces, his record is over 500 and he has made the playoffs in one out of two years here. it isn't like he has proven totally incompetent and not up to the job.
 
number17 said:
It's good Shanny recognizes there's a severe problem with coaching.

And it's very noble of him to think a coach like Carlyle CAN change, despite the problem goes back way before his Leafs days.

I mean, you think Carlyle didn't get the message that he NEEDED TO CHANGE when ANA fired him? Did you think ANA told him "Oh you're doing a fine job coaching the team ... we just feel like a coaching change."??

So it's not like he didn't know he had to change. He knew he had to change when he was fired by ANA, and he once again knew he had to change all of the past season, as admitted by Gordon.

He just COULDN'T!

(and I don't blame him ... when he doesn't even know what's wrong with the team, how can he change?)

But Shanny decides he'll give him another chance to change again ...

Meanwhile, Bylsma hits the job market and we decide to extend our coach's contract.

Is that the best decision for the Leafs team?
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the issue in anaheim wasn't that the team's defensive system fell apart. it was that the players got frustrated with his hard ass approach. and he addressed that issue in toronto. and in fact, the fact that he proved he could change his style is probably exactly why theyr'e confident that he can also implement a different strategy.
 
There's some truth to that ... fair enough.

I just think when you want to make drastic changes, it's best you start with a clean slate, especially when there are better coaches out there. It is very difficult to initiate change when you keep your coach, keep your GM, and before SC playoff is over your already publicly announce Dion isn't going anywhere and he will continue to be captain, Bolland isn't going anywhere ...

You are right Carlyle has been a winning coach at every level though, I DO hope he rewards Shanny's trust with positive changes.

I just think firing Carlyle and hiring Bylsma is the much, much, much better way to start the off-season but that's just me.
 
to me, that's window dressing.

the team is exhibiting the same problems they had before carlyle came here. there's a problem with (some of) the players.

and i don't think this is about making drastic changes. shanahan has made it clear that he doesn't want to rush into any big decisions.

as for bylsma -- who knows if he'd even want to come here. i'll tell you this: the optics of firing wilson and carlyle, two experienced and respected coaches, after less than 3 years (each) on the job might be a pretty big deterrent to a guy like bylsma coming here.
 
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