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Nonis & Horachek Fired!

The Kane comparison isn't a good one. They are both elite skilled wingers, but Kane doesn't bitch out on contact, he doesn't float without the puck, he isn't completely useless when he isn't scoring.

Not sure why we have to keep making excuses for Kessel's warts.
 
I'm not a stats guy but +/- proves nothing in a comparison between Kane and Kessel.

Kane is unquestionably on a much better team and it reflects in how each player is viewed. When they were both on the same team one(Kessel) was better than the other. Obviously it was only a few games but goes to show you how close these 2 guys really are.

We need to bring in a center to play with Kessel if we do keep him and want to maximize his production.
 
leafman101 said:
The Kane comparison isn't a good one. They are both elite skilled wingers, but Kane doesn't bitch out on contact, he doesn't float without the puck, he isn't completely useless when he isn't scoring.

Not sure why we have to keep making excuses for Kessel's warts.
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Kane floats around plenty. Kane plays in a much more competitive environment. Seeing your teammates play good often makes you want to raise your game. I hate the idea of moving Kessel because i truly do not believe we will get an adequate return relative to his true value as a scorer. Also add in that in another year or 2 we will be right back to looking for another scorer.

Like some have mentioned $8 million doesn't get you Kessel quality any more. We will not be able to replace him without spending $10 million.
 
I wonder what happens with Kessel if he sticks around but a couple of his fellow travelers (Lupul and Bozak) are moved out, he's separated from JVR and management puts a new leadership group in place in the room?
 
Leafin' said:
Kane floats around plenty. Kane plays in a much more competitive environment. Seeing your teammates play good often makes you want to raise your game. I hate the idea of moving Kessel because i truly do not believe we will get an adequate return relative to his true value as a scorer. Also add in that in another year or 2 we will be right back to looking for another scorer.
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Kane really doesn't float like Kessel. Kessel's pretty unique in his complete unwillingness to (1) try on defense and (2) take any contact, whatsoever.

Like some have mentioned $8 million doesn't get you Kessel quality any more. We will not be able to replace him without spending $10 million.
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Why do people keep saying this? They signed Kessel one year ago. He has the 10th highest cap hit in the league, and was 6th in real dollars earned this year.
 
I'm having an almost impossible time figuring out what I'd like the Leafs to do with Phil Kessel. My gut reaction after this season is that I want him gone, and I'd like the door to hit him in the ass on the way out for good measure. I never again want to see him pouting on the Leaf bench when things aren't going his way. I never again want to see him peel away from the play as soon as the puck goes into the corner. I never again want to see him skating around aimlessly, waiting for the puck to come to him while the opposition is putting on a puck-possession clinic in our zone.

At the same time, I also go in the complete opposite direction and think that all of that is just an emotional, irrational reaction to a bad slump by Kessel in the worst Leaf season I've been a witness to in my life. But there's one main thing that stops me from coming around to that opinion.

Here's a list of Leafs and the even-strength point totals they put up since the Leafs' first game with Peter Horachek on January 7th. I didn't look up every Leaf, but all these guys have one thing in common: whether because of age, position or skill, Phil Kessel should be handily out-scoring them at even strength without even breaking a sweat. But here's what actually happened:

Daniel Winnik: 11 in 20 GP
Morgan Rielly: 11 in 42 GP
David Booth: 11 in 42 GP
Phil Kessel: 11 in 42 GP
Jake Gardiner: 10 in 42 GP
Peter Holland: 8 in 24 GP
Eric Brewer: 7 in 25 GP
Richard Panik: 7 in 41 GP

Can someone please give me an explanation for this that doesn't look ****ing awful on Phil Kessel? Really, please, I want to be convinced that it's a good idea to keep this guy. But I simply cannot accept that it's possible for a player with Phil Kessel's elite level of talent to give that kind of performance without deciding that he doesn't give a shit, and giving up on a season that had more than half of it left to go. Either that, or he's just one of the most mentally soft players to ever don a Leaf jersey.
 
Leafin' said:
I'm not a stats guy but +/- proves nothing in a comparison between Kane and Kessel.

Kane is unquestionably on a much better team and it reflects in how each player is viewed. When they were both on the same team one(Kessel) was better than the other. Obviously it was only a few games but goes to show you how close these 2 guys really are.

We need to bring in a center to play with Kessel if we do keep him and want to maximize his production.
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There were times in the last couple years where people were calling our top line one of the best in the league, and STILL, Kessel had a terrible +/-. I think it speaks volumes.

It doesn't help that he is on a line with Bozak and JVR, sure. But even stats aside, watching the game it is pretty clear.
 
Assuming the Leafs do a tear down house cleaning and acquire a large number of picks and prospects in return, how wise was it to fire virtually the entire pro and amateur scouting staff at this time?

Who will be making the selections and choosing which prospects to ask for from other teams, Dubas and his laptop?
 
They didn't fire everyone. There are still 8 scouts left, plus Hunter running the show and Dubas and his computer. According to the Sens website they have 10 pro and amateur scouts.

The Leafs had a bloated scouting staff.
 
And presumably, by this point all the scouts have submitted their final reports for the season to the top guys. It's not like missing the playoffs has come as a surprise - I expect the execs have probably almost finished their whole draft list by this point.
 
There are only three major scouting events left on the calendar.

- the IIHF World U18s (which Thommie Bergmann, as your Chief European scout can take care of, although it's easy to see Hunter making his way there as well)
- the Memorial Cup (which Dave Morrisonn and Hunter can presumably cover)
- the Draft combine (which you don't need a massive scouting staff for)
 
SENSible said:
Assuming the Leafs do a tear down house cleaning and acquire a large number of picks and prospects in return, how wise was it to fire virtually the entire pro and amateur scouting staff at this time?

Who will be making the selections and choosing which prospects to ask for from other teams, Dubas and his laptop?
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Do you think we should've kept the pro and amateur scouts that we determined weren't doing a good enough job and needed to be canned and have them make those important decisions for us?
 
LeafGm said:
I'm having an almost impossible time figuring out what I'd like the Leafs to do with Phil Kessel. My gut reaction after this season is that I want him gone, and I'd like the door to hit him in the ass on the way out for good measure. I never again want to see him pouting on the Leaf bench when things aren't going his way. I never again want to see him peel away from the play as soon as the puck goes into the corner. I never again want to see him skating around aimlessly, waiting for the puck to come to him while the opposition is putting on a puck-possession clinic in our zone.

At the same time, I also go in the complete opposite direction and think that all of that is just an emotional, irrational reaction to a bad slump by Kessel in the worst Leaf season I've been a witness to in my life. But there's one main thing that stops me from coming around to that opinion.

Here's a list of Leafs and the even-strength point totals they put up since the Leafs' first game with Peter Horachek on January 7th. I didn't look up every Leaf, but all these guys have one thing in common: whether because of age, position or skill, Phil Kessel should be handily out-scoring them at even strength without even breaking a sweat. But here's what actually happened:

Daniel Winnik: 11 in 20 GP
Morgan Rielly: 11 in 42 GP
David Booth: 11 in 42 GP
Phil Kessel: 11 in 42 GP
Jake Gardiner: 10 in 42 GP
Peter Holland: 8 in 24 GP
Eric Brewer: 7 in 25 GP
Richard Panik: 7 in 41 GP

Can someone please give me an explanation for this that doesn't look ****ing awful on Phil Kessel? Really, please, I want to be convinced that it's a good idea to keep this guy. But I simply cannot accept that it's possible for a player with Phil Kessel's elite level of talent to give that kind of performance without deciding that he doesn't give a shit, and giving up on a season that had more than half of it left to go. Either that, or he's just one of the most mentally soft players to ever don a Leaf jersey.
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No no i hear you.

At the same time though, part of me keeps thinking Kessel is like a talented but spoiled child, who is just waiting for the perfect coach to turn his career around. Many offensively gifted player could get away with the hard part of the game because they grow up as stars, but at some point of their career a hard-assed coach comes and turn ppl around ... guys like Burns, Hitch ... and we see how even guys like Modano and Hull can turn into complete players. I dunno if the same will happen to Kessel, but he has got way too much talent to not give that at try especially if we can't even get 80c on the dollar by trading him.
 
hockeylover said:
Do you think we should've kept the pro and amateur scouts that we determined weren't doing a good enough job and needed to be canned and have them make those important decisions for us?
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I'm sure your highly experienced President made the perfect decision and you should all defend it to the death...

What value would you place on the reports handed in by the staff that was deemed so poor they needed to be fired?

What if you wanted to question them on a specific players prior to a trade/move? You can choose to disregard their advice, but at least before you could look them in the eye and ask for their rationale. Now, you have a report.

How many NA based scouts do the Leafs currently employ?

I'm sure the draft list is virtually complete, but what about pro scouting on other teams prospects for a trade?

I'm not suggesting this is a disaster, but why not wait till after the june draft when most of your major decisions will be made?
 
Yeah, the Leafs should have kept taking advice from the luminaries who lobbied for Jeff Finger, Komisarek, Clarkson, Biggs, Ross, Toskala, Raycroft, Schenn, Lebda, Stempniak, Wayne Primeau, Jason Blake ... give your head a shake. Such weak trolling.
 
Leafs Scouting Staff before the personnel changes:

Dave Morrison Director, Amateur Scouting
Mike Palmateer Amateur Scout
George Armstrong Amateur Scout
John Lilley Amateur Scout
Garth Malarchuk Amateur Scout
Alan Power Amateur Scout
Gary Harker Amateur Scout
Scott Carter Amateur Scout
Pierre Rioux Amateur Scout
Roy Stasiuk Amateur Scout
John McMorrow Amateur Scout
Darryl Stanley Amateur Scout
Bud Stefanski Amateur Scout
Dave Shyiak Amateur Scout
Pat Dapuzzo Amateur Scout
Mike Penny Pro Scout
Tom Watt Pro Scout
Rob Cowie Pro Scout
Joe Gibbs European Scout
Thommie Bergman European Scout
Jari Gronstrand European Scout
Peter Ihnacak European Scout
Nikolai Ladygin European Scout

Ottawa Senators Scouts according to OttawaSenators.com

Nick Polano Professional Scout
Jim Clark Professional Scout
George Fargher Amateur Scout
Bob Janecyk Amateur Scout
Trent Mann Amateur Scout
Bob Lowes Amateur Scout
Bill McCarthy Amateur Scout
Lewis Mongelluzzo Amateur Scout
Mikko Ruutu European Scout
Vaclav Burda European scout

We had an excessive scouting staff. You don't need that many NA Amateur scouts + two OHL GMs. There doesn't appear to be any reason to keep around people whose opinions you've determined you don't trust.
 
number17 said:
No no i hear you.

At the same time though, part of me keeps thinking Kessel is like a talented but spoiled child, who is just waiting for the perfect coach to turn his career around. Many offensively gifted player could get away with the hard part of the game because they grow up as stars, but at some point of their career a hard-assed coach comes and turn ppl around ... guys like Burns, Hitch ... and we see how even guys like Modano and Hull can turn into complete players. I dunno if the same will happen to Kessel, but he has got way too much talent to not give that at try especially if we can't even get 80c on the dollar by trading him.
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Yeah, the same thought runs through my mind. "What if we get Babcock", or even "what if we get McDavid". Is it then worth it to give him another shot? But I still can't make up my mind even then. Kessel's not an immature kid that just needs to grow up. He'll turn 28 years old just prior to next season. Sure, there are some hockey players in their late 20's who go from lazy and uncommitted to consummate professionals and fitness nuts---Gary Roberts is one such example. But those guys are the exception rather than the rule.

It's a really tough call. I hope someone makes it easy on us by giving us a great offer for Kessel. As much as I do want to shove him out the door, I still don't think I'd be ready to trade him for the "typical" package of a roster player, decent prospect and 1st round pick.
 
The only way I'd be interested in keeping Kessel would be if there was a comparable offensive talent that doesn't play like a pussy and plays a 200 foot game also on the roster. In short, trade him unless they get McDavid.
 
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