lecoqsportif
Well-known member
Re: Rumours, Innuendos and Flat out B.S.: 2017-18 Edition
Kopitar wasn’t had via tank.
Kopitar wasn’t had via tank.
Rumours, Innuendos and Flat out B.S.: 2021-22 Edition
- Thread starter WeHaveMoreCupsThanYou
- Start date
lecoqsportif
Well-known member
Re: Rumours, Innuendos and Flat out B.S.: 2017-18 Edition
Of the favourites to win the cup this year, how many are a result of deliberate tanks?
Of the favourites to win the cup this year, how many are a result of deliberate tanks?
GGpX
Well-known member
Re: Rumours, Innuendos and Flat out B.S.: 2017-18 Edition
It's very, very simple: It all starts and ends with top amateur scouting.
Why did Chicago, Toronto & Winnipeg succeed (or are looking like they're going to succeed) while Florida, Deadmonton & Arizona didn't?
They were able to draft quality players outside of the lottery picks.
During that decade prior to drafting McDavid, look up Deadmonton's drafts. It's lottery pick followed up by nothing for close to a decade. Year after year after year. Getting lottery picks helps tremendously and trading veterans for additional picks is good too, but if you can't identify talent at the amateur rank past that, it's organizational suicide. The organization is stuck having to try to compensate for the lack of cheap, young talent. It's one of the reasons people here ridiculed me for saying bridge contracts are the height of stupidity. Again, I turned out to be right.
Look at Chicago: Kane & Toews were their most famous lottery picks. Now, look at the rest of their picks:
2002: Duncan Keith, James Wisniewski, Adam Burish
2003: Brent Seabrook, Corey Crawford, Dustin Byfuglien
2004: Dave Bolland, Bryan Bickell, Troy Brouwer
2005: Nik Hjalmarsson
2006: Toews
2007: Kane
2008: Nothing
2009: Marcus Kruger
2010: Kevin Hayes (traded)
2011: Phillip Danault (traded), Brandon Saad, Andrew Shaw
2012: Teuvo Teravainen (traded)
That's some serious talent. Now their more recent drafts haven't been nearly as good and that's been part of the reason they've started slipping. The other part is the contracts given to Toews and Seabrook are anchors.
It's very, very simple: It all starts and ends with top amateur scouting.
Why did Chicago, Toronto & Winnipeg succeed (or are looking like they're going to succeed) while Florida, Deadmonton & Arizona didn't?
They were able to draft quality players outside of the lottery picks.
During that decade prior to drafting McDavid, look up Deadmonton's drafts. It's lottery pick followed up by nothing for close to a decade. Year after year after year. Getting lottery picks helps tremendously and trading veterans for additional picks is good too, but if you can't identify talent at the amateur rank past that, it's organizational suicide. The organization is stuck having to try to compensate for the lack of cheap, young talent. It's one of the reasons people here ridiculed me for saying bridge contracts are the height of stupidity. Again, I turned out to be right.
Look at Chicago: Kane & Toews were their most famous lottery picks. Now, look at the rest of their picks:
2002: Duncan Keith, James Wisniewski, Adam Burish
2003: Brent Seabrook, Corey Crawford, Dustin Byfuglien
2004: Dave Bolland, Bryan Bickell, Troy Brouwer
2005: Nik Hjalmarsson
2006: Toews
2007: Kane
2008: Nothing
2009: Marcus Kruger
2010: Kevin Hayes (traded)
2011: Phillip Danault (traded), Brandon Saad, Andrew Shaw
2012: Teuvo Teravainen (traded)
That's some serious talent. Now their more recent drafts haven't been nearly as good and that's been part of the reason they've started slipping. The other part is the contracts given to Toews and Seabrook are anchors.
lecoqsportif
Well-known member
Re: Rumours, Innuendos and Flat out B.S.: 2017-18 Edition
I totally agree with this. Totally. But, it’s a separate argument from tanking and gutting.
Making smart trades and UFA deals isn’t mutually exclusive from building a great scouting/development team.
I totally agree with this. Totally. But, it’s a separate argument from tanking and gutting.
Making smart trades and UFA deals isn’t mutually exclusive from building a great scouting/development team.
GGpX
Well-known member
Re: Rumours, Innuendos and Flat out B.S.: 2017-18 Edition
Not many. But if you look at all the top teams, Winnipeg, Nashville, Bawstun, Tampa Bay, Pittsburgh... They all have one thing in common: Exceptional drafting.
Dissect the anatomy of how Pittsburgh won the last two years. It's so easy to point at Crosby, Malkin & Kessel, but they're only part of the reason. A bigger part of the reason they won was having Matt Murray & Jake Guentzel on ELCs playing way above their salaries. Having those two on ELCs allows Pittsburgh to be able to trade for Kessel or to keep Chris Kunitz.
Not many. But if you look at all the top teams, Winnipeg, Nashville, Bawstun, Tampa Bay, Pittsburgh... They all have one thing in common: Exceptional drafting.
Dissect the anatomy of how Pittsburgh won the last two years. It's so easy to point at Crosby, Malkin & Kessel, but they're only part of the reason. A bigger part of the reason they won was having Matt Murray & Jake Guentzel on ELCs playing way above their salaries. Having those two on ELCs allows Pittsburgh to be able to trade for Kessel or to keep Chris Kunitz.
lecoqsportif
Well-known member
Re: Rumours, Innuendos and Flat out B.S.: 2017-18 Edition
Bottom line: Habs management and player development sux, regardless of where they pick.
That said, I’m now less convinced that signing Tavares would be a problem. That said again, I doubt he signs in Montreal.
Bottom line: Habs management and player development sux, regardless of where they pick.
That said, I’m now less convinced that signing Tavares would be a problem. That said again, I doubt he signs in Montreal.
GGpX
Well-known member
Re: Rumours, Innuendos and Flat out B.S.: 2017-18 Edition
You brought up the top teams: Which of those teams were built primarily from trades of UFA signings?
The only teams I can recall that made a big UFA signing & won was Chicago with Hossa and that was only because they were able to rig his contract with "fake" years at the end to drop the AAV and then Bawstun with Chara because they signed him long-term on a contract that became ridiculously undervalued a few years after signing it.
Winnipeg is mostly made up of draft picks, although they acquired Wheeler, Byfuglien & Myers via trade when they were young.
Pittsburgh is mostly made up of draft picks, although they acquired Phil Kessel via trade.
Tampa Bay, outside of McDonagh & Miller, is mostly made up of drafted & developed players.
Bawstun's best players, excluding Chara, are almost all drafted & developed players.
It's a repeating theme.
You brought up the top teams: Which of those teams were built primarily from trades of UFA signings?
The only teams I can recall that made a big UFA signing & won was Chicago with Hossa and that was only because they were able to rig his contract with "fake" years at the end to drop the AAV and then Bawstun with Chara because they signed him long-term on a contract that became ridiculously undervalued a few years after signing it.
Winnipeg is mostly made up of draft picks, although they acquired Wheeler, Byfuglien & Myers via trade when they were young.
Pittsburgh is mostly made up of draft picks, although they acquired Phil Kessel via trade.
Tampa Bay, outside of McDonagh & Miller, is mostly made up of drafted & developed players.
Bawstun's best players, excluding Chara, are almost all drafted & developed players.
It's a repeating theme.
lecoqsportif
Well-known member
Re: Rumours, Innuendos and Flat out B.S.: 2017-18 Edition
LA traded for Carter, who was an important player for them.
No one doubts the need for good scouting and development. It’s primordial. But do we need to declare jihad on trades/UFAs? I dunno.
And the tanking experience looks a little mixed.
LA traded for Carter, who was an important player for them.
No one doubts the need for good scouting and development. It’s primordial. But do we need to declare jihad on trades/UFAs? I dunno.
And the tanking experience looks a little mixed.
GGpX
Well-known member
Re: Rumours, Innuendos and Flat out B.S.: 2017-18 Edition
LA traded for Richards and Carter.
However, they had also drafted Kopitar, Quick, Doughty, Brown, Martinez, Voynov, Toffoli, Pearson, Muzzin & Jones (the last two were free agents out of Junior). It's the same thing as other teams.
You shouldn't declare jihad on trades, no. Especially not trades where you get rid of your aging (aging I define as players reaching their late 20s, early 30s) players for younger players. The only aging players I would not trade are those who seem to be on a trajectory to the Hall of Fame.
I would, however, declare a complete jihad on UFAs. Most players start to decline right around the time they hit free agency and you're mostly paying them for their past performances instead of their future performances.
Tanking only works if you have superb amateur scouting. Deadmonton, Florida & Arizona didn't have it and they're perennial cellar dwellers. Florida's started drafting better and (surprise, surprise) they've been getting consistently better. This is not a surprise.
LA traded for Richards and Carter.
However, they had also drafted Kopitar, Quick, Doughty, Brown, Martinez, Voynov, Toffoli, Pearson, Muzzin & Jones (the last two were free agents out of Junior). It's the same thing as other teams.
You shouldn't declare jihad on trades, no. Especially not trades where you get rid of your aging (aging I define as players reaching their late 20s, early 30s) players for younger players. The only aging players I would not trade are those who seem to be on a trajectory to the Hall of Fame.
I would, however, declare a complete jihad on UFAs. Most players start to decline right around the time they hit free agency and you're mostly paying them for their past performances instead of their future performances.
Tanking only works if you have superb amateur scouting. Deadmonton, Florida & Arizona didn't have it and they're perennial cellar dwellers. Florida's started drafting better and (surprise, surprise) they've been getting consistently better. This is not a surprise.
GGpX
Well-known member
Re: Rumours, Innuendos and Flat out B.S.: 2017-18 Edition
I have pointed out to you factual historical precedent that despite being an elite player he can't lead them to victory all on his own, pointed out that Tavares's team this year is superior to ours with their results being marginally better as as my arguments. You speculate that Tavares would turn the Habs into "very good" because herp
Yes, stupid indeed.
I have pointed out to you factual historical precedent that despite being an elite player he can't lead them to victory all on his own, pointed out that Tavares's team this year is superior to ours with their results being marginally better as as my arguments. You speculate that Tavares would turn the Habs into "very good" because herp
Yes, stupid indeed.
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GGpX
Well-known member
Re: Rumours, Innuendos and Flat out B.S.: 2017-18 Edition
Drafted Lauri Tukonen 11th overall in 2004, Kopitar 11th in 2005, Jonathan Bernier 11th in 2006, Thomas Hickey 5th overall in 2007, Doughty 2nd overall in 2008 and Schenn 5th overall in 2009.
Drafted Lauri Tukonen 11th overall in 2004, Kopitar 11th in 2005, Jonathan Bernier 11th in 2006, Thomas Hickey 5th overall in 2007, Doughty 2nd overall in 2008 and Schenn 5th overall in 2009.
Re: Rumours, Innuendos and Flat out B.S.: 2017-18 Edition
Kopitar and Doughty played a major role but did the other's?
Re: Rumours, Innuendos and Flat out B.S.: 2017-18 Edition
It's all about optics and the state of the Habs . We have done a terrible job over the years building a roster .
Now you want to add a 28 year old 1C to this mix and make it work with so many flaws and a prospect base that doesn't exist.
The goal here is put together a sustained competitive contending team not to make us better short term team and fight for a playoff spot .
That's all we will be with JT . Your adding him to a 33 year old 1D , a 31 year old lost goalie , a 30 year old spineless captain , and a flawed supporting cast .
You can't keep patching your house when you have never built the correct structural foundation .
The major problem is thinking that we have 7 years to figure it with JT on our side .
When it doesn't work and with further age creeping with our core now you are stuck with half a cap tied to 5 players that can't win squat .
What you end up with is a version of the Chicago Black Hawks past their prime core but at least they have 3 rings in their ears .
If we had Winnipeg's or TO's young core fine make the move as they have time on their side and elite young talent to ride it out .
Your trying to add a star with a core on the wrong side of 30 and a support staff that isn't very good , it's the wrong way to do it and as GGPX said it best it is .....2+2 =4 minus 1 and suicidal .
It's all about optics and the state of the Habs . We have done a terrible job over the years building a roster .
Now you want to add a 28 year old 1C to this mix and make it work with so many flaws and a prospect base that doesn't exist.
The goal here is put together a sustained competitive contending team not to make us better short term team and fight for a playoff spot .
That's all we will be with JT . Your adding him to a 33 year old 1D , a 31 year old lost goalie , a 30 year old spineless captain , and a flawed supporting cast .
You can't keep patching your house when you have never built the correct structural foundation .
The major problem is thinking that we have 7 years to figure it with JT on our side .
When it doesn't work and with further age creeping with our core now you are stuck with half a cap tied to 5 players that can't win squat .
What you end up with is a version of the Chicago Black Hawks past their prime core but at least they have 3 rings in their ears .
If we had Winnipeg's or TO's young core fine make the move as they have time on their side and elite young talent to ride it out .
Your trying to add a star with a core on the wrong side of 30 and a support staff that isn't very good , it's the wrong way to do it and as GGPX said it best it is .....2+2 =4 minus 1 and suicidal .
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Re: Rumours, Innuendos and Flat out B.S.: 2017-18 Edition
You add the right players or take the correct course of action based on your teams current structure .
Free agency has been nothing but an utter disaster for teams .
No one is dissing JT , we simply have the wrong tools in the existing tool box to acquire I'm .
You add the right players or take the correct course of action based on your teams current structure .
Free agency has been nothing but an utter disaster for teams .
No one is dissing JT , we simply have the wrong tools in the existing tool box to acquire I'm .
Sal_Butera
Well-known member
Re: Rumours, Innuendos and Flat out B.S.: 2017-18 Edition
UFA has been a disaster because there has never been a JT type 27-year old talent to hit the market
Altair
Well-known member
Re: Rumours, Innuendos and Flat out B.S.: 2017-18 Edition
Don't bother.
For some reason people say they want to rebuild and in the same breathe say they want tavares.
Makes no sense, it's not worth talking about.
Don't bother.
For some reason people say they want to rebuild and in the same breathe say they want tavares.
Makes no sense, it's not worth talking about.
Sal_Butera
Well-known member
Rumours, Innuendos and Flat out B.S.: 2017-18 Edition
Everyone agrees that top end amateur scouting & player development is vital to any team’s success, however this belief tanking has a high success rate with the present lottery system is asinine when u run a multi billion $ corporation. It’s great to be a fantasy league fan but first & foremost it’s a business and needs to be run to a business plan guaranteeing year-over-year profit growth
Winning is a nicety, profitability is a necessity - I will never begrudge ownership for focusing on running a profitable business. My issue with the Habsis lack of focus on using their economic might to be the best amateur scouting org, which doesn’t require tanking
Habs didn’t need to tank to draft Jeff Carter, Getzlaf, Burns, Parise, Perry, Weber, Backes, Zajac, Kopitar, Letang, Giroux & Marchand (from their Q backyard), Kreider, Kuznetsov, Coyle etc. in fact they didn’t even need to move up from their draft positions.
Everyone agrees that top end amateur scouting & player development is vital to any team’s success, however this belief tanking has a high success rate with the present lottery system is asinine when u run a multi billion $ corporation. It’s great to be a fantasy league fan but first & foremost it’s a business and needs to be run to a business plan guaranteeing year-over-year profit growth
Winning is a nicety, profitability is a necessity - I will never begrudge ownership for focusing on running a profitable business. My issue with the Habsis lack of focus on using their economic might to be the best amateur scouting org, which doesn’t require tanking
Habs didn’t need to tank to draft Jeff Carter, Getzlaf, Burns, Parise, Perry, Weber, Backes, Zajac, Kopitar, Letang, Giroux & Marchand (from their Q backyard), Kreider, Kuznetsov, Coyle etc. in fact they didn’t even need to move up from their draft positions.
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