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Laine v Matthews

Montana said:
We got extremely lucky a couple times.....winning Matthews, having Nylander fall to us at 8, having a talent like Marner on the board at 4.

You can plan to tank.....but you could never plan for it turning out as well as it has for us these last 3 seasons.
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I agree and you can add Reilly at #5 to that list but what I was saying was entering this year we had a couple great talents that just continued to show they were elite as was expected. It was expected we would be in a good place to get a top 5 pick and we did. The people now saying we have done a great job of this are right but its the same job that was projected for us at the start of the year except that we won the lottery.

We are where we throught we would be and now we are starting to get some recognition for it.
 
zeke said:
unfortunately his 19yr old season was not nearly as remarkable.
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You're right, all Ekblad did was make the All-Star Game for a second consecutive season, and finish top ten in both goals scored and plus minus amongst defenders, all while playing important minutes for a playoff team while still being eligible for the World Juniors.

He's a clear-cut first-pairing option at age 19.
 
Reg Season

Campbell 22:16
Ekblad 21:40
Kulikov 21:05
Gudbranson 20:06

Playoffs

Gudbranson 26:54
Campbell 25:38
Ekblad 25:37
Kulikov 25:09

Don't think that's clear cut anything, especially given the competition.

and plus minus?
 
trujaysfan said:
I agree and you can add Reilly at #5 to that list but what I was saying was entering this year we had a couple great talents that just continued to show they were elite as was expected. It was expected we would be in a good place to get a top 5 pick and we did. The people now saying we have done a great job of this are right but its the same job that was projected for us at the start of the year except that we won the lottery.

We are where we throught we would be and now we are starting to get some recognition for it.
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Its definitely true that the Leafs are where they are because of lots of good work over the last few years. But adding Matthews puts us beyond where we thought we would be now. That was an incredible stroke of luck. And that is something all teams that end up winning seem to have received at some point.
 
Ekblad is 19. He's still young, and it shows at time. At times he also shows flashes of an absolutely dominant defenseman that you can't do anything against one on one. The kid is going to be a hell of a player. It takes time though. A guy like Reilly is 21-22 and still going through some growing pains, though he took some big leaps this year.
 
Ekblad is awesome.

I just think he's been put on a pedestal a bit early. He's not an established top pair guy quite yet.
 
Montana said:
We got extremely lucky a couple times.....winning Matthews, having Nylander fall to us at 8, having a talent like Marner on the board at 4.

You can plan to tank.....but you could never plan for it turning out as well as it has for us these last 3 seasons.
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what i like about marner and nylander is that what they've done has been truly superlative. there are plenty of guys picked in the top 10 who flash tons of skill in junior... and put up really good numbers.

but marner's production is up there with the elite; meanwhile, nylander has stepped into pro leagues at 18 and 19 and been one of if not the best player in the league.

i think we have good reason for optimism because we are adding prospects who, imo, are a lot more impressive with higher ceilings than most guys picked in their range.
 
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I have never heard anyone ever refer to Brent Seabrook as "not an established top pairing guy", and I know who I would take today in a series for everything I own on my team of the two.
 
MindzEye said:
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I have never heard anyone ever refer to Brent Seabrook as "not an established top pairing guy", and I know who I would take today in a series for everything I own on my team of the two.
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I've maintained Seabrook is overrated for years.
 
zeke said:
I've maintained Seabrook is overrated for years.
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Sure, but not a top pairing defender over rated? He's spoken about in the media like he's a fringe top 10 defender, which he's not. But do you honestly not put him somewhere in your top 35-40 defenders in hockey? Ekblad isn't a stud #1 yet, but he's absolutely a legit top pairing defender.
 
zeke said:
Reg Season

Campbell 22:16
Ekblad 21:40
Kulikov 21:05
Gudbranson 20:06

Playoffs

Gudbranson 26:54
Campbell 25:38
Ekblad 25:37
Kulikov 25:09

Don't think that's clear cut anything, especially given the competition.

and plus minus?
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You're attaching significance to one minute of playing time per game on average?
 
Playing 21:40 is as much "top pairing" ice time as Willy's 16:20 is "top line" ice time.
 
Haven't followed the minutae of this discussion, but Nylander does seem to get undervalued relative to Marner and probably Matthews.

It should be fun watching 2 or 3 of those guys vy for the Calder next year.
 
BeLeafer said:
Haven't followed the minutae of this discussion, but Nylander does seem to get undervalued relative to Marner and probably Matthews.

It should be fun watching 2 or 3 of those guys vy for the Calder next year.
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Would be cool to have this line:
Marner-Matthews-Nylander
 
Ekblad and Reinhart were both better than Nylander then, and are both better right now IMO. Draisatl is too. I'd have Nylander as 4th from that class.
 
Warrior charts are nice, but they aren't the be all and end all either though, especially when some of the stats are "relative".

Goal production relative, is going to be greatly effected for a guy like Seabrook depending if he is on the ice at the same time as Patrick Kane or not, depending on his zone starts, depending on a lot of things.

Also when we talk about all the "relative" stats, those are stats compared to teammates. A good defenceman on a team full of crappy defencemen will look good "relative" to his teammates; a great defenceman with many very good D on his team might not look quite as good "relative" to his teammates.

There is a lot of context that sometimes needs to be added.

I like hero charts and they are pretty good, but they are not infallible either
 
BeLeafer said:
Haven't followed the minutae of this discussion, but Nylander does seem to get undervalued relative to Marner and probably Matthews.

It should be fun watching 2 or 3 of those guys vy for the Calder next year.
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Whoever the best player ends up being out of that group of three, I honestly won't be surprised.

Each of them makes a good case for themselves:

Nylander's been arguably the best player in two of the top professional leagues in the world as a teenager. His points-per-game average as an 18 year-old in the SHL is the third best of all-time, behind Markus Naslund and Tomas Sandstrom, and ahead of guys like Peter Forsberg, the Sedins, Thomas Steen & Mats Sundin. And his points-per-game average as a 19 year-old in the AHL puts him at 2nd of all time, only a whisker behind Jason Spezza for 1st place.

Marner just finished up back-to-back 100-point, 2+ PPG seasons in the OHL. And in the playoffs, he's just presided over back-to-back sweeps of the 4th place & 1st place teams in the OHL (Kitchener & Erie), where he racked up these numbers against them: GP 8, G 11, A 14, Pts 25, 3.13 PPG. That's some of the best competition the OHL has to offer and in the highest pressure situation, he's putting up video-game numbers against them.

And then we know Matthews' story, and how he's ended up as this year's top prospect. Historic numbers for the US National development team, a dominant player in the Swiss league in his first taste of pro hockey fresh off his 18th birthday, and a dominant player at the WJC as well.
 
BeLeafer said:
Haven't followed the minutae of this discussion, but Nylander does seem to get undervalued relative to Marner and probably Matthews.

It should be fun watching 2 or 3 of those guys vy for the Calder next year.
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Deservedly so in relation to Matthews.....but with regards to Marne you're right. As great as Marner, everything Nylander has done since being drafted makes him worthy of at least equal praise.

In fact.....while Marner has the higher upside, if I had to bet my life on only one of Nylander or Marner panning out, I might have to put my money on Willie.
 
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