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Habs trade PK Subban to Predators for Shea Weber

TheCountofMonteCristo said:
but how do you determine if they do or not? Plus Minus is not considered important so if you are a guy who is the digger in the corner and doesn't give up to the point that you get the puck out and it ends up in the net, but he does get a point. According to most of the stats, you cannot measure what he did.

The advanced stats are a tool, but they are not the be all end all that guys like Bolduke says they are. You cannot judge a team solely by an Excel spreadsheet anymore than you can judge it by ignoring the Excel Spreadsheet
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If you are able to consistently dig pucks out of corners and get your team more possession, that shows up in the stats.


That said, no one has ever said that you can judge a team solely on a spreadsheet, but if the numbers are there, and they help with scouting and the eye test, why would any team ignore them?
 
TheCountofMonteCristo said:
but how do you determine if they do or not? Plus Minus is not considered important so if you are a guy who is the digger in the corner and doesn't give up to the point that you get the puck out and it ends up in the net, but he does get a point. According to most of the stats, you cannot measure what he did.

The advanced stats are a tool, but they are not the be all end all that guys like Bolduke says they are. You cannot judge a team solely by an Excel spreadsheet anymore than you can judge it by ignoring the Excel Spreadsheet
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No stat , algorithm , or spreadsheet will ever replace a quality management team who draft and develop well and make prudent hockey personnel decisions . Don't need analytics to tell me signing Clarkson was a disaster 5 minutes after he signed or that trading Forsberg for Erat was a retarded move .

It's a nice helpful tool but it's only a piece of your team building strategy.
 
GEEMAN said:
No stat , algorithm , or spreadsheet will ever replace a quality management team who draft and develop well and make prudent hockey personnel decisions . Don't need analytics to tell me signing Clarkson was a disaster 5 minutes after he signed or that trading Forsberg for Erat was a retarded move .

It's a nice helpful tool but it's only a piece of your team building strategy.
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Which is what I and others say. It isn't an either or proposition like some make out. Granted we almost find a number to back up an argument.
 
TheCountofMonteCristo said:
Which is what I and others say. It isn't an either or proposition like some make out. Granted we almost find a number to back up an argument.
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How can a spreadsheet tell me who is going to show up , choke , or completely shit the bed when it matters in the playoffs.

I suppose the Pens who stunk the joint out by Christmas figured a stat would tell them that Hagelin , a slug like Bonino and the miserable Phil who couldn't fit on the top 6 would be the best line in the playoffs . Or that some unknown called Rust turns into a playoff hero .
 
Pittsburgh were analytics darlings... the top possession team in the league after changing coaches, and top 3 overall for the year.

Not really a good example.
 
Pittsburgh were analytics darlings... a top possession team after changing coaches.

Not really a good example.
 
worm said:
you can if they do not lead to more goals, etc
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But they might lead to more goals and less goals against, but it might be hard to measure it and attribute it to the right factor.

Example: The play and determination of a teammate lift the spirit and play of the rest of the team and they all play with higher intensity and wins the game. The player responsible for the lift in spirit might not have been on the ice for any goal scored for or against so most stats will ignore his impact on the game.
 
GrandWazoo said:
But they might lead to more goals and less goals against, but it might be hard to measure it and attribute it to the right factor.

Example: The play and determination of a teammate lift the spirit and play of the rest of the team and they all play with higher intensity and wins the game. The player responsible for the lift in spirit might not have been on the ice for any goal scored for or against so most stats will ignore his impact on the game.
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Maybe.

However even if true...the idea that this could happen, it would still be happening at a very low level. If someone was responsible for a dramatic rise in their team's play,ts we'd notice it in the team's overall stats right? I would think so.

So we get back to the trade, and the idea of trading a player with tangible results for intangibles seems odd.

Even if intangibles exist in this way... they don't trump tangible results,. It would only be in an if everything is equal scenario... and everything isn't equal.
 
Even if we notice an overall increase in team play, how can you credit the improvement? Which new player was the cause of it? or is it the coach and changes to the system? A new associate coach? Existing players improving?

If leadership truly have an impact on team play, it's practically impossible to isolate and quantify.
 
GrandWazoo said:
Even if we notice an overall increase in team play, how can you credit the improvement? Which new player was the cause of it? or is it the coach and changes to the system? A new associate coach? Existing players improving?

If leadership truly have an impact on team play, it's practically impossible to isolate and quantify.
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You may not be able to isolate it, but if its substantial enough, you can see it.... in the wins and loss column.

I think the loss of Price's leadership was substantial enough to be seen with the eye test on the ice (how the team sagged as the season went along and their possession numbers dropped in late January as it became clear he wasn't coming back).

Loss/Gains in morale, if substantial enough to be worth the losses we saw in other areas of this trade, will be noticeable... if they are minor and not really noticeable, then they weren't worth taking a worse player, 4 years older.
 
Rolex said:
Habs won the trade.

(typing this as i'm posting my Habs Subban jersey for sale on kijiji)
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Already ordered a Nashville subban jersey. Oddly enough, this will probably the the first time I don't get shit for wearing preds gear in Montreal.
 
BKerr said:
You may not be able to isolate it, but if its substantial enough, you can see it.... in the wins and loss column.

I think the loss of Price's leadership was substantial enough to be seen with the eye test on the ice (how the team sagged as the season went along and their possession numbers dropped in late January as it became clear he wasn't coming back).

Loss/Gains in morale, if substantial enough to be worth the losses we saw in other areas of this trade, will be noticeable... if they are minor and not really noticeable, then they weren't worth taking a worse player, 4 years older.
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There is no way anyone would be able to credit Weber for the improvement of the team next year given Price's return, Radulov and Shaw acquisition, and the addition of Muller to the coaching staff, no matter how many goals he scores or how much leadership he provides. There is just too many factors going into the season.
 
GrandWazoo said:
There is no way anyone would be able to credit Weber for the improvement of the team next year given Price's return, Radulov and Shaw acquisition, and the addition of Muller to the coaching staff, no matter how many goals he scores or how much leadership he provides. There is just too many factors going into the season.
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If the power play improves and it consists of him blasting home 100 MPH one timers from the point I'm giving Weber all the credit.
 
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