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When will Karmanos sell the team?

Paulie Walnuts

Well-known member
At some point the money has to run out even if it's coming from the NHL or other sources besides his own pocket.

I don't see the Canes improving until he sells .

I know he has to find a buyer to sell but I don't think he's really looking very hard for a buyer now. Hopefully he can find someone in a few years.
 
He needs to back off his over inflated asking price if he really wants to sell. I get the impression PK is not all that motivated to sell, at least not yet.
 
I do believe that the NHL will be active in helping the team secure an owner to stay in this market should they deem the league needs to intervene. I'm guessing they are not at that point yet. The league did it with Buffalo, Tampa, Arizona and also with Minnesota. They also worked with Eugene Melnyck as well in Ottawa. I think the league values this market and sees a lot of upside/potential here and are willing to be patient with the approach to re-building. All the pundits believe he's moving in the right direction, it's just a mater of speed and well, it feels about as fast as a molasses on a winter's morning.
 
Right now, I suspect with revenue sharing he's probably close to breakeven on cash flow, even with sales where they are. Doubt he's having to feed much, if any, of his own cash into Gale Force.

So can drift sideways hoping for a billionaire sports team collector or local, I suppose, purchase at some price. And, if the team gets better, sales get better.

*insert "This is fine." in roaring fire gif here*
 
Right now, I suspect with revenue sharing he's probably close to breakeven on cash flow, even with sales where they are. Doubt he's having to feed much, if any, of his own cash into Gale Force.

So can drift sideways hoping for a billionaire sports team collector or local, I suppose, purchase at some price. And, if the team gets better, sales get better.

*insert "This is fine." in roaring fire gif here*

By all accounts Karmanos is losing a ton of money and it's pretty clear to see that the NHL is certainly helping to float the boat right now...you simply do not have 6 and 7K in an NHL building night after night and not feel the punishing affects of that! It's a chess match right now...Ponytail Pete looks at that $500 million sales price for that Vegas expansion team and thinks he can garner close to that for his club from a group like Quebecor. The NHL really wants to leave the Canes in this market and give it a shot with another owner to turn things around and not have to pull out of this market. So where is the middle ground? Is the middle somewhere between the reported value of the team which by all accounts is somewhere between $200-$250 million and the $500 million expansion cost for a new team? Does the NHL make up the difference between what a new owner would pay based on reported value and the final sale price to get rid of Pete and keep the team here and clean up the mess?

My gut says the league does not want to carry this on for too long because it just looks bad. Karmanos cannot continue to lose tens of millions of dollars stringing this out...so something has to give sooner rather than later.
 
Just don't believe annual losses are in the tens of millions range.

As recently as December Waddell (yeah, I know) acknowledges large loss years (Semin), but claims the losses are now small and shrinking due to revenue sharing and TV with gate receipts less of a factor. (Source)

Plus, they have the arena. And NHL credit. It's complicated.
 
Best guess ... and you HAVE to guess since the books are an intentional mystery, even to the Arena Authority ... Pete is losing between 10 and 20 million per year at the current attendance level. There just isn't enough revenue sharing to make up the difference with paying attendance so low. And that clearly isnt going to improve until the product on the ice improves .... and remember that there will be a one year lag on that money. In other words, you suddenly get decent and make the playoffs, THEN next season you actually reap some revenue benefits.

Bottom line ... Pete's got to run out of cash eventually because he has no fresh source of real income of his own and hockey club revenue by itself (even leveraging a year ahead with the league like it's been reported that he's doing) isn't ever going to fill that gap for him. He's either got to find a goodly hunk of cash to invest in the roster and hope his GM gets it right on the roster refresh and wins straight away, or he's got to lower his asking price and other demands and sell the team. Until one of those two things happens we're stuck in the part of purgatory where the perpetually cheap people hang out.

And for clarity ... I've been told that his stance hasn't changed a bit. He's still out there softly, passively trolling for some rube to buy out most of his shares while still allowing him control of operations. Which is going to happen precisely never.
 
Just don't believe annual losses are in the tens of millions range.

As recently as December Waddell (yeah, I know) acknowledges large loss years (Semin), but claims the losses are now small and shrinking due to revenue sharing and TV with gate receipts less of a factor. (Source)

Plus, they have the arena. And NHL credit. It's complicated.

Every single thing out of Waddell's mouth regarding the club's finances since he got here is either complete BS or qualified so heavily as to be virtually meaningless. And what little we actually see from the public reports and filings indicate an annual loss in the neighborhood of 5 million bucks. Since those are incomplete at BEST, you have to assume reality is worse. And nobody makes any real money on operating arenas these days. Plus, the building isn't close to booked enough for that to be the case anyway. We're a FAR cry from Madison Square Garden when it come to the event schedule. And credit? Yeah, that comes with a payment schedule and thus is irrelevant to the larger discussion.
 
the biggest proof he's losing a lot of money is that lawsuit from his kids over the trust fund.

Why he thinks he is going to sell a big chunk of the team yet retain control is a big mystery. Maybe he's going senile or something along those lines.
 
Best guess ... and you HAVE to guess since the books are an intentional mystery, even to the Arena Authority ... Pete is losing between 10 and 20 million per year at the current attendance level. There just isn't enough revenue sharing to make up the difference with paying attendance so low. And that clearly isnt going to improve until the product on the ice improves .... and remember that there will be a one year lag on that money. In other words, you suddenly get decent and make the playoffs, THEN next season you actually reap some revenue benefits.

Bottom line ... Pete's got to run out of cash eventually because he has no fresh source of real income of his own and hockey club revenue by itself (even leveraging a year ahead with the league like it's been reported that he's doing) isn't ever going to fill that gap for him. He's either got to find a goodly hunk of cash to invest in the roster and hope his GM gets it right on the roster refresh and wins straight away, or he's got to lower his asking price and other demands and sell the team. Until one of those two things happens we're stuck in the part of purgatory where the perpetually cheap people hang out.

And for clarity ... I've been told that his stance hasn't changed a bit. He's still out there softly, passively trolling for some rube to buy out most of his shares while still allowing him control of operations. Which is going to happen precisely never.

Excellent post JB, I think you are pretty close to spot on with all of this. The NHL must know it's only a matter of time before he lowers his asking price and takes what he can get to stop the bleeding...perhaps the league even takes control and buys Pete out and then finds their own buyer after that. For the fans in general of this club, it sure would be nice to get this mess cleaned up over the summer and start fresh in the Fall with Petey gone, but that's likely too quick of a timeline to happen.
 
Yeah, you know, I think that has been proven. Folks are not going to come out and witness crap. This is not an issue limited by geography.

Exhibit A

Attendance record for Pittsburgh well below ours (Exhibit B) for their first two decades of existence.

Until they drafted Lemieux in 1985 and, after adding a few more parts like Coffey, finally made the playoffs in 1989.

And we've hit their playoff season numbers during our playoff seasons and during our first two decades of existence.

May even involve waiting for the next generation to kick in, as well. All those kids that were taken to games, now with discretionary disposable income of their own.

That economic effect is a real thing.
 
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Yeah, you know, I think that has been proven. Folks are not going to come out and witness crap. This is not an issue limited by geography.

Correct. This is not Atlanta where the market yawns at even championship quality teams. At least in terms of hockey ... play well and folks will spend money. Play like crap for an extended period of time, and nah ... we're good.
 
Exhibit A

Attendance record for Pittsburgh well below ours (Exhibit B) for their first two decades of existence.

Until they drafted Lemieux in 1985 and, after adding a few more parts like Coffey, finally made the playoffs in 1989.

And we've hit their playoff season numbers during our playoff seasons and during our first two decades of existence.

May even involve waiting for the next generation to kick in, as well. All those kids that were taken to games, now with discretionary disposable income of their own.

That economic effect is a real thing.

I use this site. The seasons are in the drop down.

In 2003-04, before the lockout, look who was DFL in attendance? Look who was 29th in the first season back.

One note on this site though...the Winnipeg listings are for Atlanta prior to the relocation.

http://www.espn.com/nhl/attendance/_/year/2004
 
I remember a writer (who I think was in Boston ) writing that smart fans stay home when the team is bad. So I guess that applies here as well.

But does not apply in Canada. :thumbup:
 
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