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Thread: GDT: Game #18 | Sabres vs. Canadiens | Nov. 11, 2017

  1. #101
    Legend GrandWazoo's Avatar
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    Default Re: GDT: Game #18 | Sabres vs. Canadiens | Nov. 11, 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Altair View Post
    I think 5 is a good number.

    And the snowman doesn't make any top 5 list
    There is negligible difference between the top 15 goalies in the league, probably less than 0.05% save over any significant number of games.

    And if you look at the past 5 years, Crawford is easily top 5. In fact he's top 3 with Bobrovski (#1) and Price.

    http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?aggr...&sort=savePctg

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    1st Liner Purple Haze's Avatar
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    Default Re: GDT: Game #18 | Sabres vs. Canadiens | Nov. 11, 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Habspatrol View Post
    I guess it depends on where you set the line for "franchise goalie." I'd say top 5 in the league. After that there are 5 "good" goalies, 10 "average" goalies and the rest are below average to bad.
    This analyse seems about right to me, but then again like HP said, where the line is drawn is very subjective.

    I think tho that term ELITE is more appropriate to the ulterior posts and to the definition stated above, than the term FRANCHISE.

    I think ELITE is a better term to use when talking about how good a player is (or a goaltender), and is a bit less subjective than FRANCHISE player.

    What is an ELITE player ? An ELITE goaltender ?
    What is a FRANCHISE player ? A FRANCHISE goaltender ?

    Marc-André Fleury was drafted first in the expansion draft and named the “face of the Vegas franchise”.
    He is the first franchise player of their very short history.
    Fleury is an average goaltender, despiste being a franchise player.

    Maybe the marketing aspect of a franchise player is not something you would apply to your vision of a franchise player, maybe for you it is more of a player you can use to build on hockey wise, but like i said this term is broader than the term elite.

    Is PK Subban an ELITE player ? A FRANCHISE player ?

    Is Phil Kessel an ELITE player ? A FRANCHISE player ?

    Is Nicklas Backtrom an ELITE player ? A FRANCHISE player ?

    Was Milan Lucic a FRANCHISE player for Boston ?

    Can you have more than one FRANCHISE player on a team ?

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    Legend Altair's Avatar
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    Default Re: GDT: Game #18 | Sabres vs. Canadiens | Nov. 11, 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Haze View Post
    This analyse seems about right to me, but then again like HP said, where the line is drawn is very subjective.

    I think tho that term ELITE is more appropriate to the ulterior posts and to the definition stated above, than the term FRANCHISE.

    I think ELITE is a better term to use when talking about how good a player is (or a goaltender), and is a bit less subjective than FRANCHISE player.

    What is an ELITE player ? An ELITE goaltender ?
    What is a FRANCHISE player ? A FRANCHISE goaltender ?

    Marc-André Fleury was drafted first in the expansion draft and named the “face of the Vegas franchise”.
    He is the first franchise player of their very short history.
    Fleury is an average goaltender, despiste being a franchise player.

    Maybe the marketing aspect of a franchise player is not something you would apply to your vision of a franchise player, maybe for you it is more of a player you can use to build on hockey wise, but like i said this term is broader than the term elite.

    Is PK Subban an ELITE player ? A FRANCHISE player ?

    Is Phil Kessel an ELITE player ? A FRANCHISE player ?

    Is Nicklas Backtrom an ELITE player ? A FRANCHISE player ?

    Was Milan Lucic a FRANCHISE player for Boston ?

    Can you have more than one FRANCHISE player on a team ?
    The way I look at it is this.

    Phil Kessel is a elite player, puts up a lot of points, is very productive. But at the end of the day, he couldn't get the leafs over the hump.

    Jack eichel, same story.

    Then you guys like Matthews and mcdavid and Crosby who can take bottom feeders to contender status.
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    Legend GrandWazoo's Avatar
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    Default Re: GDT: Game #18 | Sabres vs. Canadiens | Nov. 11, 2017

    Yeah, franchise is very subjective while elite is more objective. As Altair pointed out in a separate thread, I was looking more at elite goalies. I also don't think there is enough difference between goalies to warrant a franchise status to one.

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    Legend GrandWazoo's Avatar
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    Default Re: GDT: Game #18 | Sabres vs. Canadiens | Nov. 11, 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Altair View Post
    The way I look at it is this.

    Phil Kessel is a elite player, puts up a lot of points, is very productive. But at the end of the day, he couldn't get the leafs over the hump.

    Jack eichel, same story.

    Then you guys like Matthews and mcdavid and Crosby who can take bottom feeders to contender status.
    I think there is very few franchise players in the league.

    I'd say:

    Crosby
    McDavid
    Matthews
    Karlsson

    And then maybe Kane and Malkin.

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    Legend Altair's Avatar
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    Default Re: GDT: Game #18 | Sabres vs. Canadiens | Nov. 11, 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by GrandWazoo View Post
    I think there is very few franchise players in the league.

    I'd say:

    Crosby
    McDavid
    Matthews
    Karlsson

    And then maybe Kane and Malkin.
    Exactly. Which is why you saying that there are 15 franchise goalies cheapens the term.
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    Canadiens Moderator Rolex's Avatar
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    Default Re: GDT: Game #18 | Sabres vs. Canadiens | Nov. 11, 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by GrandWazoo View Post
    I think there is very few franchise players in the league.

    I'd say:

    Crosby
    McDavid
    Matthews
    Karlsson

    And then maybe Kane and Malkin.
    Price is also a franchise player....pretty much ALL GMs in this league would pick Price to be their team's goalie if they had a choice (forget his contract for a second)

    So is Stamkos....so is Tavares...so is Kopitar....so is Ovechkin (like it or not)

    You have about 10-15 franchise players in this league...which is normal, these are the top of the top in the world...
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    Legend Altair's Avatar
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    Default Re: GDT: Game #18 | Sabres vs. Canadiens | Nov. 11, 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolex View Post
    Price is also a franchise player....pretty much ALL GMs in this league would pick Price to be their team's goalie if they had a choice (forget his contract for a second)

    So is Stamkos....so is Tavares...so is Kopitar....so is Ovechkin (like it or not)

    You have about 10-15 franchise players in this league...which is normal, these are the top of the top in the world...
    Ovechkin was a franchise player, I'm not sure if he is anymore
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeke View Post
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    1st Liner Purple Haze's Avatar
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    Default Re: GDT: Game #18 | Sabres vs. Canadiens | Nov. 11, 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolex View Post
    Price is also a franchise player....pretty much ALL GMs in this league would pick Price to be their team's goalie if they had a choice (forget his contract for a second)

    So is Stamkos....so is Tavares...so is Kopitar....so is Ovechkin (like it or not)

    You have about 10-15 franchise players in this league...which is normal, these are the top of the top in the world...
    I agree more with Rolex on this one, as I think there are way more than 4-6 franchise players in the league.

    My definition goes even further.

    Patrice Bergeron as everything of a franchise player to me :
    -Elite player
    -Best player on the team
    -Heart and soul of the team
    -Leader on and off the ice
    -Fan favorite
    -Building block hockey and marketing wise

    I would argue that almost evey team in the league has at least one franchise players, except for the bottom feeders like Colorado who are actively looking to find one to build on.

    I would also argue that a few elite teams have two franchise players, like Chicago with Toews and Kane, or Crosby and Malkin with Pittsburgh.
    I don’t think a GM can give a contract like the one he gave to Toews without considering him a franchise player.
    (I still think the best and more useful player on the Blackhawks is Duncan Keith, but that is another story)

    So I would estimate the number of franchise players in the league to roughly 30.


    Without analysing every player one by one, I would estimate the number of elite players to maybe 60.
    (20 elite centre, around 35 elite wingers and less than 10 elite goaltenders).

    So IMO around 60 Elite players, and around 30 Franchise players.


    When GW and Altair talk about the following group of 4 players :

    Crosby
    McDavid
    Karlsson
    Matthews

    I think this group is the level beyond Franchise players,
    GENERATIONAL Players.

    Crosby, McDavid and Karlsson are definitively Generational talents to me, but I would not be ready to put Matthews in that list yet.

    Matthews is the real deal, an Elite and Franchise player at a very young age, but generational I’m not quite sure yet.

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    Default Re: GDT: Game #18 | Sabres vs. Canadiens | Nov. 11, 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolex View Post
    Price is also a franchise player....pretty much ALL GMs in this league would pick Price to be their team's goalie if they had a choice (forget his contract for a second)

    So is Stamkos....so is Tavares...so is Kopitar....so is Ovechkin (like it or not)

    You have about 10-15 franchise players in this league...which is normal, these are the top of the top in the world...
    I'd trade Price in a second for any of the other guys you mentioned (and so would any GM in the league), so no, I don't consider him a franchise player. I don't consider any goalie a franchise player by the definition put above.

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    Default Re: GDT: Game #18 | Sabres vs. Canadiens | Nov. 11, 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Haze View Post
    I agree more with Rolex on this one, as I think there are way more than 4-6 franchise players in the league.

    My definition goes even further.

    Patrice Bergeron as everything of a franchise player to me :
    -Elite player
    -Best player on the team
    -Heart and soul of the team
    -Leader on and off the ice
    -Fan favorite
    -Building block hockey and marketing wise

    I would argue that almost evey team in the league has at least one franchise players, except for the bottom feeders like Colorado who are actively looking to find one to build on.

    I would also argue that a few elite teams have two franchise players, like Chicago with Toews and Kane, or Crosby and Malkin with Pittsburgh.
    I don’t think a GM can give a contract like the one he gave to Toews without considering him a franchise player.
    (I still think the best and more useful player on the Blackhawks is Duncan Keith, but that is another story)

    So I would estimate the number of franchise players in the league to roughly 30.


    Without analysing every player one by one, I would estimate the number of elite players to maybe 60.
    (20 elite centre, around 35 elite wingers and less than 10 elite goaltenders).

    So IMO around 60 Elite players, and around 30 Franchise players.


    When GW and Altair talk about the following group of 4 players :

    Crosby
    McDavid
    Karlsson
    Matthews

    I think this group is the level beyond Franchise players,
    GENERATIONAL Players.

    Crosby, McDavid and Karlsson are definitively Generational talents to me, but I would not be ready to put Matthews in that list yet.

    Matthews is the real deal, an Elite and Franchise player at a very young age, but generational I’m not quite sure yet.
    Franchise player is so subjective, so I try to go with the definition given to me. Altair defined it as a player that can take a bottom feeder to a contender pretty much by itself. I think that's a very narrow list of players.

    If you argue that it is a player that is consistently in MVP status for its own team, then that broadens it up quite a bit.

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    Default Re: GDT: Game #18 | Sabres vs. Canadiens | Nov. 11, 2017

    When debating franchise goalies earlier, my own definition was any goalie that is a clearly #1 for a franchise for a an extended period of time (5+ seasons) without the team feeling like it needs an upgrade to take it to the next level.

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    Default Re: GDT: Game #18 | Sabres vs. Canadiens | Nov. 11, 2017

    Thomas is a franchise player? loll Ok.. What is next^^^

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    Default Re: GDT: Game #18 | Sabres vs. Canadiens | Nov. 11, 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by GrandWazoo View Post
    Crawford is criminally underrated, I have no problem considering him in the same category of Price, Lundqvist, Quick, etc.

    Goalie A : .919%, 2.37GAA
    Goalie B : .919%, 2.33GAA
    Goalie C : .919%, 2.43GAA
    Goalie D : .916%, 2.26GAA

    Those are career numbers for Crawford and the 3 goalies named above.
    Crawford is a good example of what i am talking about even though having a team like Hawks make any goalie look much much better than what he is, even on save %, limiting lots of shots coming from outside. etc.

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    LeAdminie legoalie's Avatar
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    Default Re: GDT: Game #18 | Sabres vs. Canadiens | Nov. 11, 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Haze View Post
    Price’s contract if awful and will likely be a problem in the years to come, but the question about us being better with Lingren at a cheaper cap hit is futile for the PRESENT, as we already have a lot of cap space for this year and Price’s contract is not a problem for this team today.
    This

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    Canadiens Moderator Rolex's Avatar
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    Default Re: GDT: Game #18 | Sabres vs. Canadiens | Nov. 11, 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by GrandWazoo View Post
    Franchise player is so subjective, so I try to go with the definition given to me. Altair defined it as a player that can take a bottom feeder to a contender pretty much by itself. I think that's a very narrow list of players.

    If you argue that it is a player that is consistently in MVP status for its own team, then that broadens it up quite a bit.

    All i know is we took the wrong Franchise player in 2005 draft

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    Wrong Thinker Extraordinaire Habsy's Avatar
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    Default Re: GDT: Game #18 | Sabres vs. Canadiens | Nov. 11, 2017

    Crosby was taken
    #FireJulien#FireMarcBergevin Burn Geoff Molson in effigy! #worstmanagementstaffever

  18. #118
    Canadiens Moderator Rolex's Avatar
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    Default Re: GDT: Game #18 | Sabres vs. Canadiens | Nov. 11, 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Habsy View Post
    Crosby was taken
    Br honest...you wanted Marc Staal
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    Default Re: GDT: Game #18 | Sabres vs. Canadiens | Nov. 11, 2017

    You know I wanted Kopitar. You just like to pretend you were the only one.
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    Default Re: GDT: Game #18 | Sabres vs. Canadiens | Nov. 11, 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by GrandWazoo View Post
    I'd trade Price in a second for any of the other guys you mentioned (and so would any GM in the league), so no, I don't consider him a franchise player. I don't consider any goalie a franchise player by the definition put above.
    Agreed

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