GDT MAR 21: Spring in the Air

zeke said:

explain how you think "stats mongering" had anything to do with our instantaneous reactions to his obviously flubbed goals?

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Because what flubbed goals?? The first one was through a screen, the second one was labeled nicely, and the fourth one was a deflection off Rielly after he gave it up badly. Only the third one we can blame on him. The reactions were mostly “make a save!” and “there’s only been six shots!” and shit like that. Save percentage being tossed around. But the guy was not the reason for the loss. It was a true team effort.

The outrage is over the fact that we squandered a three goal lead. And whenever something like that happens, it’s immediately the “Freddy is an average goalie” show. It’s never because the team was shit.

zeke said:

we were outplayed that series. Reiner kept us in it.

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I’m a Reimer fan, remember?

But we dominated 2.5 periods of game 7. We should’ve won according to you, but Reimer gave up three late goals and the OT winner. So you have to blame him, right? It’s not because Phaneuf fell asleep in front of the net in the last few minutes, or fat **** didn’t call a timeout to break the momentum. It’s all goalie, all the time.

LeafOfFaith said:

Because what flubbed goals?? The first one was through a screen, the second one was labeled nicely, and the fourth one was a deflection off Rielly after he gave it up badly. Only the third one we can blame on him. The reactions were mostly “make a save!” and “there’s only been six shots!” and shit like that. Save percentage being tossed around. But the guy was not the reason for the loss. It was a true team effort.

The outrage is over the fact that we squandered a three goal lead. And whenever something like that happens, it’s immediately the “Freddy is an average goalie” show. It’s never because the team was shit.

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thanks for admitting that it had nothing to do with this "stats mongering" thing.

Freddy let in 4 very stoppable goals that could have been routine easy saves to lose a game in which our team outplayed an elite team in the league in their own barn without our best player, and he easily deserves the most criticism as a result.

LeafOfFaith said:

I’m a Reimer fan, remember?

But we dominated 2.5 periods of game 7. We should’ve won according to you, but Reimer gave up three late goals and the OT winner. So you have to blame him, right? It’s not because Phaneuf fell asleep in front of the net in the last few minutes, or fat **** didn’t call a timeout to break the momentum. It’s all goalie, all the time.

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just because we had the lead doesn't mean we dominated. they outshot us 35-28 that game. they had 60% possession. they were the better team that game.

zeke said:

thanks for admitting that it had nothing to do with this "stats mongering" thing.

Freddy let in 4 very stoppable goals that could have been routine easy saves to lose a game in which our team outplayed an elite team in the league in their own barn without our best player, and he easily deserves the most criticism as a result.

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Comments lamenting his save percentage over the prior SIX shots, and other nonsense, then led into postgame commentary on his career save percentage and his overall averageness.

We dominated them? Based on what phony metric? You didn’t watch the last 25 minutes if you saw any level of domination there.

And back to the four supposedly stoppable shots, which is bullshit. One was a bad goal. Period. And I don’t see you complaining about our terrible PPs, the awful last few minutes of the game when we couldn’t generate shit, or Rielly’s totally shitty work that was the one and only cause of the game winner. Only complaints about Freddy. As though the rest of the team isn’t even a factor.

Talk about bias.

zeke said:

just because we had the lead doesn't mean we dominated. they outshot us 35-28 that game. they had 60% possession. they were the better team that game.

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Don’t waste my time with possession. How many of their shots came in the final ten or twelve minutes and OT? I really don’t know, but I’d bet that’s when the game went from being controlled by us to being taken over by them.

Again, another game that if you watched the screen instead of the spreadsheet, you’d have seen us control the first 50 minutes and then fall apart in the last 15. If the stats tell you they were so much better than us overall, then again, chuck them. We had them all game long till we just wilted in the end.

And since Reimer gave up 5 goals on 35 shots, I don’t know how you can exonerate him.

Deckie007 said:

Jonathan Quick - .916 SV% - 2 cups

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Okay, but one of the two years he was a .929 (won the vezina, no?) and followed that up with a ****tarded .946 in the playoffs. A spectacular, elite season followed up by one of the most ridiculous playoff performances ever. The other cup he was .911 and got carried by a very, very good Kings team that was dominant everywhere.

Corey Crawford - .919 SV% - 2 cups

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.926 and .924 in those respective regular seasons. That's damn close to elite, a firm, firm step better than anything Freddy has done in the show (followed those up with .932 and .924 performances in the playoffs the Hawks won a cup in)

Average-good goalies can get hot and help their team to a cup. Hell, add Murray .918 SV%, and you have the past what, 6 cups? Recently, the best regular season goalies don't win shit. No idea why....maybe their teams rely on them too much, I dunno. But it's the second-third tier of guys winning them.

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Murray is a weird abberation...but he was a .930 in his rookie season (13 games), and then a .923 in his sophomore season (49 games) and he studded in the playoffs both seasons. I don't think including this season in that number (where he's been pretty shit) properly represents what tier of goalie he was, or at least was playing like for the 2 previous seasons. Over those 2 seasons he played 94 games of .926 hockey. If the Pens win this season I think we can maybe revisit this point but as of right now he was pretty ****ing good in both cup years.

Overall I get what you're saying, but other than the one title Quick won with the Kings, none of the above were playing like anything other than fringe elite goalies. They were all ~.925 or better

I've seen very mediocre to bad goalies like Ward, Khabibulin, & Niemi win cups in logic defying runs so I'm not going to come out and say that we can't win one with Freddy, but unless we just happened to get lucky enough to get one of these runs of form he can have where he looks like a world beater for 4+ weeks, I don't see us doing it without having to carry him. I think we're getting to the point where he's teased us with a higher level of play, but we're seeing that year after year he just can't sustain that high level of play consistently.

Volcanologist said:

Did you really think he was going to be awesome every month? Things were always going to even out.

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Better question is, do you really think he has been awesome every month?

October: .898
November: .938
December: .924
January: .928
February: .922
March: .858

I count one "awesome" month in there and one and a half ugly ones.

The bigger issue is him going soft down the stretch. Ironically, this started right around the time people started saying he's a Vezina candidate.

Over his last 16 games, he's only had three games where he's let in fewer than 3 goals. Four quality starts over that stretch. This substandard play has been papered over by the Leafs ability to score.

It could well be that Freddy can't handle the workload Babcock has foisted on him. I'm no fan of the way Babs manages goaltending. Why in the **** would you play this guy or anyone so heavily when your team can score like the Leafs? It's plainly obvious they have at least one guy that can provide quality starts with limited usage.

Freddy has been slipping for over a month and no change in Babcock's usage. It's like the way he's used Hainsey. It's just kind of stupid.

MindzEye said:

Okay, but one of the two years he was a .929 (won the vezina, no?) and followed that up with a ****tarded .946 in the playoffs. A spectacular, elite season followed up by one of the most ridiculous playoff performances ever. The other cup he was .911 and got carried by a very, very good Kings team that was dominant everywhere.


.926 and .924 in those respective regular seasons. That's damn close to elite, a firm, firm step better than anything Freddy has done in the show (followed those up with .932 and .924 performances in the playoffs the Hawks won a cup in)



Murray is a weird abberation...but he was a .930 in his rookie season (13 games), and then a .923 in his sophomore season (49 games) and he studded in the playoffs both seasons. I don't think including this season in that number (where he's been pretty shit) properly represents what tier of goalie he was, or at least was playing like for the 2 previous seasons. Over those 2 seasons he played 94 games of .926 hockey. If the Pens win this season I think we can maybe revisit this point but as of right now he was pretty ****ing good in both cup years.

Overall I get what you're saying, but other than the one title Quick won with the Kings, none of the above were playing like anything other than fringe elite goalies. They were all ~.925 or better

I've seen very mediocre to bad goalies like Ward, Khabibulin, & Niemi win cups in logic defying runs so I'm not going to come out and say that we can't win one with Freddy, but unless we just happened to get lucky enough to get one of these runs of form he can have where he looks like a world beater for 4+ weeks, I don't see us doing it without having to carry him. I think we're getting to the point where he's teased us with a higher level of play, but we're seeing that year after year he just can't sustain that high level of play consistently.

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Are we back to Freddy being the rate-limiting step for our world beater team?

BeLeafer said:

Better question is, do you really think he has been awesome every month?

October: .898
November: .938
December: .924
January: .928
February: .922
March: .858

I count one "awesome" month in there and one and a half ugly ones.

The bigger issue is him going soft down the stretch. Ironically, this started right around the time people started saying he's a Vezina candidate.

Over his last 16 games, he's only had three games where he's let in fewer than 3 goals. Four quality starts over that stretch. This substandard play has been papered over by the Leafs ability to score.

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March isn't over yet, and he's missed a bunch of games due to injury so far so sample size is smaller. And we all know he struggles in October. In 5 of 7 months, he has been above average to elite. And this doesn't even take into consideration that he is by far the NHL's most overworked goalie.

And by the way, no goalie is awesome every month. Even the elite ones.

BeLeafer said:

Better question is, do you really think he has been awesome every month?

October: .898
November: .938
December: .924
January: .928
February: .922
March: .858

I count one "awesome" month in there and one and a half ugly ones.

The bigger issue is him going soft down the stretch. Ironically, this started right around the time people started saying he's a Vezina candidate.

Over his last 16 games, he's only had three games where he's let in fewer than 3 goals. Four quality starts over that stretch. This substandard play has been papered over by the Leafs ability to score.

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In fairness if he manages to put up the any of the numbers between Nov and Feb I like our chances getting out of the first

Any of those would have him top 10 right now

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zeke said:

thanks for admitting that it had nothing to do with this "stats mongering" thing.

Freddy let in 4 very stoppable goals that could have been routine easy saves to lose a game in which our team outplayed an elite team in the league in their own barn without our best player, and he easily deserves the most criticism as a result.

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Please explain your definition of "stoppable goal" oh wise one? Did your excel sheet tell you all of those goals were stoppable? Its funny how Reimer had every excuse in the book made for him, including you using shot totals and not any other of your precious stats to prove that we got outplayed in Game 7 against Boston. It's cute that you don't care about shot totals when looking at an Anderson game. Then it becomes about HD chances, CF%, qualcompCorsiblahblahblah.

Your hate on for this guy has made your posts a complete waste of time in these threads.

Also, Morgan Rielly and Ron Hainsey have collectively been all kinds of terrible in recent weeks. Hainsey's drop in play is predictable but Rielly hasn't been the same since he came back from his injury.

leaffan2005 said:

Also, Morgan Rielly and Ron Hainsey have collectively been all kinds of terrible in recent weeks. Hainsey's drop in play is predictable but Rielly hasn't been the same since he came back from his injury.

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You dont lose last night with McDonough

leaffan2005 said:

Please explain your definition of "stoppable goal" oh wise one? Did your excel sheet tell you all of those goals were stoppable? Its funny how Reimer had every excuse in the book made for him, including you using shot totals and not any other of your precious stats to prove that we got outplayed in Game 7 against Boston. It's cute that you don't care about shot totals when looking at an Anderson game. Then it becomes about HD chances, CF%, qualcompCorsiblahblahblah.

Your hate on for this guy has made your posts a complete waste of time in these threads.

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4 goals went right through him. 4 weak shots. 4 saves that would have been routine easy saves with proper positioning.

He stunk last night, and cost us a game in which we outplayed an elite team on the road without our best player. If you can't admit it, the bias is all yours.

And since I've already shown you my game thread history of praising Freddy, while you have never said a bad word about him AND have run in screaming about reimer every time anyone else does, it's clear which one of us is biased when it comes to Freddy.

LeafOfFaith said:

Don’t waste my time with possession. How many of their shots came in the final ten or twelve minutes and OT? I really don’t know, but I’d bet that’s when the game went from being controlled by us to being taken over by them.

Again, another game that if you watched the screen instead of the spreadsheet, you’d have seen us control the first 50 minutes and then fall apart in the last 15. If the stats tell you they were so much better than us overall, then again, chuck them. We had them all game long till we just wilted in the end.

And since Reimer gave up 5 goals on 35 shots, I don’t know how you can exonerate him.

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I love that all you guys do is yell about Reiner every time Freddy sucks.

In this case it's even sillier because the leafs were clearly outplayed in that game and that series, and Reiner was the only reason we got that far. hell the same was true of that whole season.

but for ****'s sake what does reimer have to do with Freddy sucking this game? you guys are obsessed.

leaffan2005 said:

Please explain your definition of "stoppable goal" oh wise one? Did your excel sheet tell you all of those goals were stoppable? Its funny how Reimer had every excuse in the book made for him, including you using shot totals and not any other of your precious stats to prove that we got outplayed in Game 7 against Boston. It's cute that you don't care about shot totals when looking at an Anderson game. Then it becomes about HD chances, CF%, qualcompCorsiblahblahblah.

Your hate on for this guy has made your posts a complete waste of time in these threads.

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No just the eye test did

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Its McDonagh brother, I know, tough spelling, gets me too, but we DOMINATED last nights game till Andersen put on his Toskala jersey. Your goalie is your most important player, bar none imo, and Andersen has won many games this season for us. But last night, he lost the game for us, we were toying with the Bolts at times.

Toying with the Bolts is not an easy thing to do. But we were doing it. However we are a young team and when Toskala suddenly shows up, it deflates a young team.

The Boston game, game seven? I thought Reimer choked horribly. The only reason we were in that position as a team was because of one player.

Jake Gardiner.

Phaneuf and everyone else were pedestrian, till Jake Gardiner, broke the spell of the team defence of the Boston Bruins.

Jake Gardiner is playing up and down right now, making some brilliant positive plays and some hilariously bad ones, but come playoff time, he will be our best player again.

Just calling it early.

If the Coyotes get Dahlin, I still think we should acquire him in trade. Be great for our emerging sub team of Swedes . Maybe get them a hometown hero, who is injury prone. Sign Tavares et voila......

Imagine Dahlin and Strome a 2019 first pick and Tavares for Matthews? Who doesn't do that in a heartbeat? That is a massive upgrade.

There is your Cup Zeke.

Zona has to be tempted to overpay for Matthews. I am convinced this guy is brilliant, but never going to be enough of a gym rat, to play the game he loves to play.

The NHL would love it, as well. Zona getting Mr America, we get the best Swedish dman outside of Salming and Lidstrom.

Damn, hope Lou is looking for this.

We have to get Strome also, as I am looking for him to be a late blooming Phil Esposito.

I want to conclude with, if Matthews was a beast physically, I wouldn't be as keen on this. But I have watched him very, very closely, and he has energy problems, fatigue issues as it were, and I think his upper body is soft.

Tavares is an almost trade off, we get Dahlin, Strome and a first.

This allows us to sign Doughty the year after. Ugggh, Toronto would be unstoppable. The place to play, the place to be, and heaven would be the world of a ticket scalper who has 20 or more season tickets.