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The ****ing Offseason Thread 2018

leafman101 said:
But Toews getting paid 10.5 million isn't what stopped them from winning. It was losing all of their good players. If they still had 32 year old Hossa, prime Toews and Keith, Panarin, and a healthy Crawford they would be a much different team this year. And an easily cap compliant one.

Good players get paid. I'd rather pay good players than worse players.
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one of the reason they lost so many good players is because their cap was managed poorly. it is not all on the Toews deal, but overpaying players relative to the value you receive from them limits your ability to build a deep roster.

yes, I would rather overpay someone like Tavares vs someone like Seabrook. but, if given the option of overpaying neither, I will take that.
 
JackBurton said:
The story that the Hawks aren't as good because of those 2 contracts is a lazy myth. They have no depth and have some valuable pieces that have regressed or left. They are not as strong at finding those supporting pieces as they previously were.
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and they keep losing players they develop or acquire because their cap is such a mess.
 
Rangers wanted Kapanen. Shanahan said "no". Lou and Babcock were all for it. Promised I wouldn't talk in the inner poop but to hear the McDonagh trade being discussed again, well, had to say it. As it turns out, a team that I thought was amazing against us last year, Washington, won it.

I think the Bruins would have won the Cup this year, but they ran into a very poorly coached team in the first round that had a lead going into the seventh game and it took too huge a bite out of them mentally and physically.
 
JVR is exactly how you get into a Hawks situation if you are the Leafs. a 3rd line E/S player who is slow, terrible defensively and can only do 1 thing.
 
Wayward DP said:
one of the reason they lost so many good players is because their cap was managed poorly. it is not all on the Toews deal, but overpaying players relative to the value you receive from them limits your ability to build a deep roster.

yes, I would rather overpay someone like Tavares vs someone like Seabrook. but, if given the option of overpaying neither, I will take that.
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But it was mismanaged because they signed guys like Seabrook, Saad, Brower, Anisimov etc. Not because they signed Toews and Kane. Its giving money to not good players that you should be worrying about. Not giving money to good players.

The reality is if you don't spend the cap space on a player like Tavares you are most likely giving it to worse players.
 
Seabrook is an anchor. Saad having a shit year. Toews production cratering. Kane not being a Hart candidate. Keith showing his age. Crawford missing majority of the season.

Not many teams can overcome that type of adversity. It was a bad year for them but i wouldn't be surprised to see them pick it back up next season. I don't think they are as done as some would like to believe.
 
convince me a tavares contract won't turn out exactly the same way the Lecavalier, Staal, Toews, Spezza, etc. contracts did.
 
Tavares is elite. The team he's played on has been garbage. Look no further than Boston shutting down Matthews in the playoffs to see how easy it is to eliminate 1 centerman. Throw 2 elite centers at an opposing team and they are f*cked.

Matthews
Tavares
Kadri

That'd be the 2nd best group of centers in the league. Only Pitt is comparable/better.
 
zeke said:
convince me a tavares contract won't turn out exactly the same way the Lecavalier, Staal, Toews, Spezza, etc. contracts did.
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The biggest reason is Tavares isn't expected to lead the way here. He will be a complementary piece. The problem with those players wasn't the contract. Its that they were/are those teams best players and you can't win when your best players are 30+ years olds on the back 9. Eric Staal or Jonathan Toews would be perfect on a team like the Leafs though.

For example, Hossa provided amazing value to Chicago despite being a shadow of his former self.

Its not about the individual contract. Its about the team. And there wil be few opportunities to add a better player than 27-35 Tavares.
 
leafman101 said:
But it was mismanaged because they signed guys like Seabrook, Saad, Brower, Anisimov etc. Not because they signed Toews and Kane. Its giving money to not good players that you should be worrying about. Not giving money to good players.

The reality is if you don't spend the cap space on a player like Tavares you are most likely giving it to worse players.
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if you accept that Toews is currently overpaid relative to what he produces, then his contract is in the same boat as the Seabrooks. just because he is still a good player doesn't mean the Hawks are not worse off for overpaying him and limiting their cap flexibility in so doing.

Saad, for the record, is not a contract the Blackhawks signed. They traded Panarin for that contract, a deal that you could argue was necessitated by the bad contracts to Toews, Keith, and Seabrook.

I think the more compelling point you make is the final sentence, but I still disagree. There is no point in spending your cap space for the sake of it. And there is no guarantee that someone who represents value will not be available in the future. It is stupid to use up your cap space now 'because we have it' under the assumption that you will not be able to spend it on a better value player in the future.
 
Leafin' said:
Tavares is elite. The team he's played on has been garbage. Look no further than Boston shutting down Matthews in the playoffs to see how easy it is to eliminate 1 centerman. Throw 2 elite centers at an opposing team and they are f*cked.

Matthews
Tavares
Kadri

That'd be the 2nd best group of centers in the league. Only Pitt is comparable/better.
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the stats do not support this.
 
Tavares is not a saviour, so if you are Montreal or San Jose expecting him to be one, then it will turn out to be a disappointment. But if you are a team like the Leafs trying to add John ****ing Tavares as your second line center it will be hard to lose that deal.
 
Wayward DP said:
if you accept that Toews is currently overpaid relative to what he produces, then his contract is in the same boat as the Seabrooks. just because he is still a good player doesn't mean the Hawks are not worse off for overpaying him and limiting their cap flexibility in so doing.

Saad, for the record, is not a contract the Blackhawks signed. They traded Panarin for that contract, a deal that you could argue was necessitated by the bad contracts to Toews, Keith, and Seabrook.

I think the more compelling point you make is the final sentence, but I still disagree. There is no point in spending your cap space for the sake of it. And there is no guarantee that someone who represents value will not be available in the future. It is stupid to use up your cap space now 'because we have it' under the assumption that you will not be able to spend it on a better value player in the future.
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Nah. If you are a contending team there is no point in not spending cap space. Its just a disservice to your team. The point of this is to win, not to always be in the best cap position.

And whether there will be a better player available later is irrelevant. All that matters is actually acquiring that good player. So if you have the chance you go for it. You have to capitalize on the opportunities and not worry about the grass being greener. Then you will just be always to afraid to act because there is always potentially a better value available later.
 
leafman101 said:
Nah. If you are a contending team there is no point in not spending cap space. Its just a disservice to your team. The point of this is to win, not to always be in the best cap position.

And whether there will be a better player available later is irrelevant. All that matters is actually acquiring that good player. So if you have the chance you go for it. You have to capitalize on the opportunities and not worry about the grass being greener. Then you will just be always to afraid to act because there is always potentially a better value available later.
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the point is to win, I agree. being smart about how you allocate your cap money is one of the biggest ingredients that will contribute to winning. having cap space allows you acquire assets that you may not have been able to acquire otherwise.

it would be really dumb to just automatically spend the cap space on whatever is available at a given point in time just to spend it. doing so could really hurt your chances at being competitive later.

I'll take the patient approach any day.

In a capped league, cap space is a huge asset. I don't support pissing it away indiscriminately just because you have it. The key, for me, is assessing what you consider 'value' to be, relative to dollars, and then factoring that into your spending decisions.
 
To me the simple fact of the matter is adding Tavares would be a good move. No one can argue that it wouldn't make the team significantly better. It wouldn't cost us a single piece of the core. There is no better player available right now, with the exception of Erik Karlsson. The only red flag is it makes Brendan Pridham job more difficult over the next few years.

Will there potentially be a better move to make down the road? Maybe. But this would without question be a good one. Because of that they have to and will go after him. If they get him no Leafs fan will be disappointed.
 
Whereas to me, his contract dictates that this is a Hitch yer Wagon move, and I'm not sure he's that player even now, let alone going forward.
 
i.e. are we the cup favorites if we sign Tavares or do we still have needs to address? because he prevents us from addressing them.
 
But why get more caught up in the contract than the team and player? That is the wrong way to look at it IMO.

Building the best team is the most important part. Managing the cap is an important part, but ultimately not the most important. If Tavares is overpaid and Kadri and Rielly are underpaid who cares?
 
zeke said:
i.e. are we the cup favorites if we sign Tavares or do we still have needs to address? because he prevents us from addressing them.
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I think so.

Hyman-Matthews-Nylander
Johnson-Tavares-Marner
Marleau-Kadri-Brown
Leivo-XXX-Kapanen

Rielly-Hainsey
Gardiner-Zaitsev
Dermott-Borgman/Carrick/Liljegren

Anderson
Sparks


I'll take my shots with that team any day.
 
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