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OT: American Politics

Wayward DP said:
just throwing bones to his base with little regard for the actual outcomes.

and yeah, the evangelical love-in with the Jews is weird. maybe it's cause the Arabs (Muslims) hate the Jews? who knows.
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I think it's more than throwing bones to his base. I think it's rooted in ego. I may be wrong but this appears to be a strong arm "I'll do what I want" move by Trump. He seems to enjoy thumbing his nose at the world.
 
Altair said:
The territory has been disputed for what, 50 years?

Let's face facts, if the Palestians wanted a peace deal with Israel that respected both sides that deal would be done by now.

This teaches a valueble lesson. Negotiate in good faith in a timely manner or shit is only going to get worse.
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Neither party is without blame there. Israel consistently builds settlements in the West Bank and then claims it is Jewish territory.
 
Altair said:
Man, I hope people like Zeke weren't around for the creation of Israel.

Turns out, the CIA warned Truman that there would be some violence between Jews and Arabs should Israel become a country. Truman did it anyways. A good precedent
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Zeke still calls it Judea.
 
Altair said:
Man, I hope people like Zeke weren't around for the creation of Israel.

Turns out, the CIA warned Truman that there would be some violence between Jews and Arabs should Israel become a country. Truman did it anyways. A good precedent
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there's lots of displaced peoples in the world. doesn't seem like we go around annexing countries for all of them.
 
Altair said:
Is he a giant dickwad? Sure.

Still less of a dickward that anybody else in the region. Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iraq, turkey, Iran, all have/had bigger dickwad leaders and governments.

To single out netanyahu for being a dickwad is dumb.
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Just because Netanyahu was democratically elected does not mean he is not an impediment to the peace process.

And we're not comparing Middle Eastern leaders. Netanyahu has, if anything, done everything he can to make a peaceful solution less likely. It is perfectly legitimate to criticize him. Especially given the race-baiting tactics he used to get re-elected. He consistently makes the situation worse, not better.
 
zeke said:
yep. Bibi has no interest in peace. that doesn't help him get re-elected.
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his coalition is also beholden to the lunatic fringes. and Israeli society is becoming increasingly polarized between the secular mainstream and the religious lunatic fringe (which, sadly, wields disproportionate power in governing).
 
TheCountofMonteCristo said:
Neither party is without blame there. Israel consistently builds settlements in the West Bank and then claims it is Jewish territory.
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Yes, they do. One side builds setrlements, the other side teaches entire generations that the other side is evil and doesn't deserve to exist while worshiping people who blow up innocents and launch missiles from schools into civilian areas.

The fact of the matter is that the palestinians had a state all but gift wrapped for them but let it fall apart. So anything that happens now is rooted in that.

Fact of the matter is Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. They aren't giving it up. This only reflects reality.
 
Wayward DP said:
his coalition is also beholden to the lunatic fringes. and Israeli society is becoming increasingly polarized between the secular mainstream and the religious lunatic fringe (which, sadly, wields disproportionate power in governing).
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That sounds somewhat familiar.
 
Altair said:
Yes, they do. One side builds setrlements, the other side teaches entire generations that the other side is evil and doesn't deserve to exist while worshiping people who blow up innocents and launch missiles from schools into civilian areas.

The fact of the matter is that the palestinians had a state all but gift wrapped for them but let it fall apart. So anything that happens now is rooted in that.

Fact of the matter is Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. They aren't giving it up. This only reflects reality.
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the US / britain went and carved out a chunk of the middle east for itself, including the arab world's holiest city, because some people had lived there a thousand years earlier. all while robbing the region of its oil and fomenting permanent war in the region.

no matter what the US says or does, the arab world is never going to just sit there and take it.
 
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Wayward DP said:
Just because Netanyahu was democratically elected does not mean he is not an impediment to the peace process.

And we're not comparing Middle Eastern leaders. Netanyahu has, if anything, done everything he can to make a peaceful solution less likely. It is perfectly legitimate to criticize him. Especially given the race-baiting tactics he used to get re-elected. He consistently makes the situation worse, not better.
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Abbas has not done anything to help the peace process. There is no peace process. Every day pushes the chance of a two state solution more into the realm of fantasy. Israel tried everything in its power to come to a deal and the Palestinians let it fail, they aren't trying anymore and netanyahu is the democratic representation of that.

The situation is shot, clinton came the closest of any president to get a deal done, 4 terms of bush and obama haven't yielded shit all, there isn't anything left to ruin.

Trump acknowledging reality doesn't change that.
 
Altair said:
Abbas has not done anything to help the peace process. There is no peace process. Every day pushes the chance of a two state solution more into the realm of fantasy. Israel tried everything in its power to come to a deal and the Palestinians let it fail, they aren't trying anymore and netanyahu is the democratic representation of that.

The situation is shot, clinton came the closest of any president to get a deal done, 4 terms of bush and obama haven't yielded shit all, there isn't anything left to ruin.

Trump acknowledging reality doesn't change that.
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Again, I'm not interested in comparing relative blameworthiness. You cannot argue in good faith that Bibi has undertaken serious efforts to pursue a peaceful resolution.

I don't disagree that Abbas should also be blamed for the failure of the peace process - he should. Israel has made good faith efforts in the past that have come up short for various reasons.

But do you really think Trump cares about these kinds of nuances?

Trump acknowledging reality may well change a lot - just wait for the protests and bloodshed, cause they're coming.
 
zeke said:
the US / britain went and carved out a chunk of the middle east for itself, including the arab world's holiest city, because some people had lived there a thousand years earlier. all while robbing the region of its oil and fomenting permanent war in the region.

no matter what the US says or does, the arab world is never going to just sit there and take it.
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there was also that whole Holocaust thing too. may have influenced what happened.
 
Wayward DP said:
Again, I'm not interested in comparing relative blameworthiness. You cannot argue in good faith that Bibi has undertaken serious efforts to pursue a peaceful resolution.

I don't disagree that Abbas should also be blamed for the failure of the peace process - he should. Israel has made good faith efforts in the past that have come up short for various reasons.

But do you really think Trump cares about these kinds of nuances?

Trump acknowledging reality may well change a lot - just wait for the protests and bloodshed, cause they're coming.
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The threat of protest and bloodshed shouldn't be a reason to not do the right thing.

If Truman had listened to the CIA when they said that there would a be conflict between jews and arabs if they created Israel there wouldn't be a Israel today.

Back to your point of relative blameworthiness, you're right. Neither side has helped trying to find a peaceful resolution. But one side has all the power and the other side has none, and less with each passing day. Israel can afford to go along business as usual, the Palestinians cannot, but they are no closer to making a serious effort to resolve the situation. That's on them. If their collective situation continues to worsen that's what they get for inept leadership.
 
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...tner-russia-sanctions-would-be-ripped-n827031


WASHINGTON — Donald Trump was just 11 minutes into his presidency when his choice for national security adviser, Michael Flynn, texted a former business partner to say an ambitious U.S. collaboration with Russia to build nuclear reactors in the Middle East was "good to go," according to a new whistleblower account.

As Trump delivered his inaugural address, says the unnamed whistleblower, Flynn directed Alex Copson, managing director of ACU Strategic Partners, to inform their business partners "to put things in place."

The whistleblower also says that Flynn assured Copson that U.S. sanctions on Russia that could block the nuclear project would be "ripped up" once Trump was inside the White House.

The account from the anonymous whistleblower is detailed in a new letter from the top Democrat on the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee to his Republican counterpart asking that the panel subpoena Flynn, Copson, the White House and others involved in the alleged plan.
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Altair said:
The threat of protest and bloodshed shouldn't be a reason to not do the right thing.

If Truman had listened to the CIA when they said that there would a be conflict between jews and arabs if they created Israel there wouldn't be a Israel today.

Back to your point of relative blameworthiness, you're right. Neither side has helped trying to find a peaceful resolution. But one side has all the power and the other side has none, and less with each passing day. Israel can afford to go along business as usual, the Palestinians cannot, but they are no closer to making a serious effort to resolve the situation. That's on them. If their collective situation continues to worsen that's what they get for inept leadership.
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I would argue that, at this time, the internal divisions within both Israel and among the Palestinians are such that neither side is actually in a position to pursue meaningful peace.

Just a bloody cluster-**** of a situation that Trump just turned the temperature up on. Not to mention, setting up a US embassy in Jerusalem is a large obstacle to any potential peace process.
 
Wayward DP said:
there was also that whole Holocaust thing too. may have influenced what happened.
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Also completely ignoring that it was world war 1 and the Ottomans siding with the central powers that lead to France and Britain controlling most of the middle east in the first place.

Fact of the matter was that Britain and the US didn't carve out israel from muslim lands, the land was technically British at the time.

Ironically, had the Arab world just accepted Israel instead of repeatedly waging war against it, Israel today would be smaller, and there would be a Palestinian state today, and it would have been founded alongside Israel in 1948. If the arab world, and Palestine in particular, want to continue with their inept leadership making stupid decisions for the rest of time, so be it. Their situation will only worsen and they have nobody to blame for it but themselves.
 
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