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HabsFan1
05-07-2018, 10:44 PM
and DDR ejected.

Horrible call. We had harder fouls in our mens league game on Saturday.

Leafin'
05-07-2018, 11:20 PM
Well that was embarrassing.

I don't see this core coming back. Casey should get the boot as well. Brutal reputations might ruin our potential returns on Lowry and Derozan. Ibaka is not a movable player right now. No one will want this bum.

MindzEye
05-07-2018, 11:22 PM
Humped by 35 points in an elimination game eh?

Can't say that I'm surprised.

MyNameIsJonas
05-07-2018, 11:26 PM
Humped by 35 points in an elimination game eh?

Can't say that I'm surprised.

Raped in the face.

And that Lebron winner will suck the soul out of anyone, let alone a group softer than a pile of downey fresh sheets.

MindzEye
05-07-2018, 11:33 PM
Raped in the face.

And that Lebron winner will suck the soul out of anyone, let alone a group softer than a pile of downey fresh sheets.

Hold the fort in game 1 like any other team of this calibre should, and you can feel confident going into game 4 that Lebron had to go full legend mode to keep you from stealing one in their house and it's 2-1 with today being big, but not season ending.

This series ended when they didn't respond to the game 1 choke.

Leafin'
05-07-2018, 11:34 PM
Does Derozan get us into the top 6-8 picks? I'd take my chances with any of Ayton, Doncic, Bagley, Porter, Jackson, Young. OR some other prospect in the NBA? Jamal Murray?

What about Lowry?

If Casey is back.. oh boy. Is Budenholzer a guy we could look at? Former top coaching prospect from Spurs. What about Frank Vogel? He had the reputation in Indiana similar to Stevens in Boston right now.

MyNameIsJonas
05-07-2018, 11:36 PM
Hold the fort in game 1 like any other team of this calibre should, and you can feel confident going into game 4 that Lebron had to go full legend mode to keep you from stealing one in their house and it's 2-1 with today being big, but not season ending.

This series ended when they didn't respond to the game 1 choke.

yup.

MyNameIsJonas
05-07-2018, 11:37 PM
Does Derozan get us into the top 6-8 picks? I'd take my chances with any of Ayton, Doncic, Bagley, Porter, Jackson, Young. OR some other prospect in the NBA? Jamal Murray?

What about Lowry?

If Casey is back.. oh boy. Is Budenholzer a guy we could look at? Former top coaching prospect from Spurs. What about Frank Vogel? He had the reputation in Indiana similar to Stevens in Boston right now.

Lowry no, DDR i dont know.

Frank Vogel is a nightmare he ran plays through Biz in Orlando.

Leafin'
05-07-2018, 11:39 PM
Lowry no, DDR i dont know.

Frank Vogel is a nightmare he ran plays through Biz in Orlando.

How much of that could be on management trying to salvage a stupid signing and forcing him to do it? I recall Vogel was one of the most promising coaches just a few seasons ago.

Leafin'
05-07-2018, 11:43 PM
F*ck man. Its Derozan that is the killer. I love the guy. He's a solid person and was loyal to the team but damn he's a ball stopping/ momentum killing SG that crumbles under pressure. Its not even just against Lebron.

Brutal brutal end to the season.

MyNameIsJonas
05-07-2018, 11:43 PM
How much of that could be on management trying to salvage a stupid signing and forcing him to do it? I recall Vogel was one of the most promising coaches just a few seasons ago.

none, **** him, no.

Im almost certain they stay in house if they fire Casey, either Stack or Nurse.

Leafin'
05-07-2018, 11:51 PM
none, **** him, no.

Im almost certain they stay in house if they fire Casey, either Stack or Nurse.

I want a nerd coach. Mindz who ya got?

HabsFan1
05-08-2018, 12:06 AM
I think Stack will be a great coach. Smart ball player who will demand respect.

MindzEye
05-08-2018, 12:09 AM
I'd like to see DD with some other players who can create and make their own shots consistently before writing him off entirely. He can't be the man on a contender, this we know, but can he be Robin? Considering that he's legitimately elite at his position, and there's no remotely easy way to upgrade at the position, he's a guy I look to keep and see if we can add someone with big nuts in a pressure situation like Kemba.

MindzEye
05-08-2018, 12:35 AM
I want a nerd coach. Mindz who ya got?

It's honestly hard to assess anyone in house. I know Nurse is highly thought of in the business and that he was the driving force behind our change of offensive philsophy, so that's a pretty huge plus imo. It really was a massive improvement for most of the year.

I'd be nervous about any rookie coach though, as well as any retread coaching carousel type. If we're going with a NBA rookie I'd prefer we grab a highly talented college coach, or an assistant who has sat at the foot of a legend.

So Jay Wright, Mark Few, Etorre Messina, Iduka are all guys I'd try to get to interview for the job.

JVG is a guy I would want to interview, he has a habit of turning teams into elite defensive forces, but I'd be curious to hear about his thoughts on the modern NBA offence. Has coached HOF'ers, has generally done a pretty good job with generally mediocre (in NY) or injury prone (in Houston) rosters.

My shortlist would be Wright, Nurse, and Messina, not necessarily in that order. Problem if you don't hire Nurse is that you probably lose him to a head coaching job this summer, and some continuity would be good if there's going to be any major changes with the roster. Wright is an incredible college coach, but you never know if that's going to translate to the NBA. Messina was running this "modern" type of spacing and shooting offensive system in Europe back when Jordan was still shitting on people in the league, he might have more experience with "modern" NBA offensive systems than anyone on the planet.

So yeah, either Nurse or Messina with the tie going to the guy who is already in house. He knows the players, there's a bond and trust level there that takes time to build. I'd definitely want him paired with strong defence oriented assistant coaches though.

MyNameIsJonas
05-08-2018, 12:43 AM
maybe Stack passes on Orlando and agrees to assist Nurse for a year

MindzEye
05-08-2018, 01:48 AM
maybe Stack passes on Orlando and agrees to assist Nurse for a year

He probably should. He has a sparkling D/G League resume as a head coach, but only had a couple of years experience and none of it at the NBA level. 1-2 years as an assistant in the League and he's probably ready to take a head coaching job somewhere.

Leafin'
05-08-2018, 01:54 AM
Serious question: What makes Stackhouse this sought after coach? Because he won the g league title? This guy was the Demar Derozan of the 2000's. I think we need a new group in there. Nurse was in the lockerroom. Sure the offense changed, but what about the in-game adjustments? Is that all on Casey?

I am so disappointed with Demar. Is he the problem? His lack of defense, inability to fight through contact, poor late game decision making. He's elite in terms of SG i suppose. Is Lowry the problem?

Lots of questions but in the end a lot of the blame should be on Masai. He's been here what? 5 years now and he hasn't gotten 1 legit starter. How is that even possible? Ibaka is a tire fire. Carroll was a bust. Powell got paid and f*cked off.

MindzEye
05-08-2018, 02:33 AM
The problem is the mix. We have two guys who are tasked with, or capable of creating shots within the offence and they're both miscast for their roles as #1 and #2 option at the contender level. Throw into that, Casey is a pretty poor in game coach and we get the product we keep seeing.

So if we can't get an option better than Demar, we need to replace Lowry and add more options. Demar can't be expected to be the guy, he's not "that guy". We need a coach who is capable to identifying tactical issues within the flow of the game and making adjustments to stop it.

Like I've been advocating the last few years, we should be getting prices on Kemba Walker and Julius Randle. Guys who are in need of new contracts (Kemba has a year left, Randle a restricted FA) that are unlikely to sign in their current homes and have been rumoured to be available. Can create their own shots and are great within high ball movement offences with good spacing. I don't think either are going to break the bank in acquisition cost either (not cheap, but less than you'd expect for their on court quality).

The other reason I haven't mentioned regarding Demar and why I wouldn't pull the pin on him yet...I've been wrong about him before when I've figured that he is what he is and won't improve. The guy is maybe the hardest working player in the NBA. It wouldn't shock me at all if he put up 1000 3's a day this off season and came back shooting 39-40%. It's always been his achilles heel, elite guards all tend to have the ability to just pull up on a defender from 25 feet and stick jumpers on you if you give them space. Demar has never been able to do that. If he adds that this summer, and we retool with a young, more explosive, more versatile starting group that isn't so dependent on Demar to have the ball in his hands, shit could be different.

MyNameIsJonas
05-08-2018, 02:36 AM
Jordan has flip flopped on dealing Kemba for 2 years now. He seems to have no clue what he wants to do.

I'm seriously scared Aldridge is their play

GEEMAN
05-08-2018, 05:30 AM
I'd like to see DD with some other players who can create and make their own shots consistently before writing him off entirely. He can't be the man on a contender, this we know, but can he be Robin? Considering that he's legitimately elite at his position, and there's no remotely easy way to upgrade at the position, he's a guy I look to keep and see if we can add someone with big nuts in a pressure situation like Kemba.

Don't see him at all as the robin to a Batman . He will never make the clutch shots like Kyrie to a Bron.

He will never be that all round monster Gasol was to Kobe . I give him
props for busting his ass and improving every year .

Solid player and citizen who is a great team player and did it without the bs and drama of other stars .

He is what he is a solid regular season player but inefficient in the playoffs .

GEEMAN
05-08-2018, 05:35 AM
Tough offseason ahead for Masai.

If Lebron leaves Cleveland that opens the east up even more, few tweaks and you have a team that can contend with a Lebron-less east!

This is going to be the Sixer , Celtics show for the next 5 years regardless what happens with Bron

Killer93
05-08-2018, 07:59 AM
We the North my ass

GEEMAN
05-08-2018, 08:16 AM
We the North my ass

My buddy put it best

" WE THE SWEPT "

HabsFan1
05-08-2018, 12:00 PM
This is going to be the Sixer , Celtics show for the next 5 years regardless what happens with Bron

I dont think the Cs will last 5 years(no reason just a guy feeling). Sixers yes they will be the ones to beat in the east.

GEEMAN
05-08-2018, 12:38 PM
I don’t think the C’s will last 5 years(no reason just a guy feeling). Sixers yes they will be the ones to beat in the east.

Boston has all the pieces for a sustained run . Philly has BC in charge who already screwed up the Fultz deal and was too stupid to unload Okafor sooner an got nothing in return.

Snake Ainge has another lottery pick in the deal in his back pocket .

Tatum, JB, Rozier , etc team is in great shape . They will get ahead of the curve and do what needs to get done .

Snake took a first place team and ripped 2/3 of it off in one off season when he realized it wasnt good enough

This is what MA should be doing

MindzEye
05-08-2018, 12:39 PM
Don't see him at all as the robin to a Batman . He will never make the clutch shots like Kyrie to a Bron.

He will never be that all round monster Gasol was to Kobe . I give him
props for busting his ass and improving every year .

Solid player and citizen who is a great team player and did it without the bs and drama of other stars .

He is what he is a solid regular season player but inefficient in the playoffs .

He's never had anyone who can consistently create space for him, he's always had defences schemed specifically to take away his time and space above all others on the floor. Even in this new offence, it turned into "here Demar, now we expect you to have the ball more often and make the right decisions when to pass". Very little off the ball action for a guy who is a great cutter, who runs well off screens, etc.

Like I said, scheme him differently in your offence, where he's not "the man" and you might see a different guy who isn't stopping the ball to get his shots. Basically I have a hard time indicting him for Casey treating him like Michael Jordan or Kobe within our offensive scheme for the last 4-5 years. I think that poorly of Casey as a coach and have for years.

It's easy to be inefficient in the playoffs when you get schemed into taking harder shots that usual, you aren't getting your foul calls in the lane like you were in the regular season and your team absolutely needs you to keep shooting because no one else will/can fill the void.

Don't get me wrong, it's on him too. But that's a guy being put in a position to fail by the organization and his coach.

MindzEye
05-08-2018, 12:59 PM
Boston has all the pieces for a sustained run . Philly has BC in charge who already screwed up the Fultz deal and was too stupid to unload Okafor sooner an got nothing in return.

Snake Ainge has another lottery pick in the deal in his back pocket .

Tatum, JB, Rozier , etc team is in great shape . They will get ahead of the curve and do what needs to get done .

Snake took a first place team and ripped 2/3 of it off in one off season when he realized it wasnt good enough

This is what MA should be doing

You still refuse to account for the salary cap/luxury tax in your future assessments of these teams.

Kyrie opts out after next year and will want max to stay. At the same time, Marcus Smart will need to be paid and is probably worth 15 or more on the open market. Hayward is still under contract (and who knows how he's going to look coming back from that injury). Assuming Horford doesn't opt out of his 30 million dollar payday at 33, the Celtics will be paying about 98 million for Hayward, Horford, and Kyrie in 2019/20. Throw Tatum, Brown & Rozier in and you're at 118 million. You can't afford the supporting cast at this point. No Morris, no Smart, no Baynes,

Yeah, the Celtics are in good shape. So are the Sixers, but projecting out 5+ years in the NBA is a fools errand. Player movement is just too frequent, teams come out of nowhere to become dominant with a handful of smart moves, etc.

Celtics are likely to be good, the Sixers are likely to be good. But world devouring like Lebron led teams have been for the last decade? I highly doubt it.

They both have lovely windows until these kids featuring for them get paid. The Celtics specifically might sneak in a title after the Warriors fall off due to cap constraints...but who knows where Lebron and KD go? That could change everything for the next 3 years.

leafman101
05-08-2018, 01:00 PM
The question I have regarding Casey is how much better can the team really be with a different coach? Over the last 5 years they have the 4th best record in the NBA behind Golden State, San Antonio, and Houston and, and 6th most playoff wins behind only Golden State, San Antonio, Houston, Cleveland and OKC.

This team has been as successful as its lineup without a legit superstar could possibly be.

I'm sure with a guy like Pop they can squeeze a little extra out of the lineup, but realistically odds are a different coach would fare worse. There just isn't enough room to be better without making a significant roster addition.

zeke
05-08-2018, 01:13 PM
Even after all the improvements this year, Casey's offensive choices in crunch time were still abysmal, imo, and he always went back to his real self at those times.....and it happened again in the playoffs.

But there's no doubt that he got more out of the roster overall than most expected.

MindzEye
05-08-2018, 01:15 PM
The question I have regarding Casey is how much better can the team really be with a different coach? Over the last 5 years they have the 4th best record in the NBA behind Golden State, San Antonio, and Houston and, and 6th most playoff wins behind only Golden State, San Antonio, Houston, Cleveland and OKC.

This team has been as successful as its lineup without a legit superstar could possibly be.

I'm sure with a guy like Pop they can squeeze a little extra out of the lineup, but realistically odds are a different coach would fare worse. There just isn't enough room to be better without making a significant roster addition.

How much better can they be at racking up regular season wins? Not a lot, at all.

How much better can they be in 4th quarters, or in late clock situations in big, tight games? A lot. A whole big ****ing pile of a lot.

You watch this team play for 44 minutes and it's ball movement, looking for the open 3 point shooter. When they're at their best the ball is moved quickly in transition, etc.

But in late clock, we walk the ball up the court and it's given to Demar like he's expected to go 1 on 5 and win us games. That's a coaching decision. Watch the Spurs in late clock, even back with prime Manu & Tony in pure assassin mode they would run a ****ing play with options. Option 1 is Manu off screens, option 2 might be the spot up corner 3, option 3 a dump down to Timmy for the layup while everyone is watching Manu fighting to get open, and option 4 is Parker goes Batman if the defence starts cheating and opens up a lane. Compare our shit to the movement the Spurs show. It's 4 guys standing still waiting for Demar to do something. We get more open shots off of broken plays in that set than we get within it.

That's 100% coaching.

So will we win 59 games again? Probably not. Will we win 50-55 and choke away fewer late game leads, absolutely.

leafman101
05-08-2018, 01:22 PM
But Derozan not being Lebron or Carter and being able to sink those shots is also a factor. Or Van Vleet in the case of game 1. Cleveland needs to win a game in the last minute they let Lebron do it. Game 3 wasn't coaching. That was all Lebron.

That isn't to say that Casey is a perfect coach. There is always things about a coach to criticize. Hell people criticize Mike ****ing Babcock.

Just saying a coaching change isn't putting this team over the top. Its more likely to make this team worse. This roster just can't accomplish much more than it has. They've maximized their capability, which I think you also have to give credit to Casey for. Its only been Lebron that has been able to take them out the last 3 years.

Realistically, if Lebron goes West and the Raps do nothing this offeason they will have as good of a shot as anyone in the East next year.

zeke
05-08-2018, 02:12 PM
basically I think Casey has done his job here. he was a key part in turning Demar and Lowry into actually good players, when they were pretty much a mess beforehand. He has established a great culture here and has instilled that into the next generation of kids coming up.

I'll even give him credit for being a good tactician...at least when he wanted to be. He just left a little bit too much open to "just let the big dogs eat" when it mattered most.

I'm on board with trying to get the franchise to take the next step with a coach that focusses entirely on advanced tactical coaching, even to a fault. I think that's what this team needs - and we saw how quickly they can improve from one year to the next with a tactical change.

Of course, having ownership/management willing/able to do what it takes to land us another legit all-star calibre starter would be even more helpful.

MindzEye
05-08-2018, 02:28 PM
But Derozan not being Lebron or Carter and being able to sink those shots is also a factor. Or Van Vleet in the case of game 1.

The FVV example is a good one. It was a challenged 3 attempt off of a broken play, that was a Demar hero ball drive to start with, no movement, no options other than Demar. There's a huge difference between knowing that your number might get called and getting your shot when and where you expect it within the flow of the offence, and jacking up a 3 over an aggressive close out off of a scramble/broken play.


Cleveland needs to win a game in the last minute they let Lebron do it. Game 3 wasn't coaching. That was all Lebron.

I don't know man, when you let a spot up shooter like Korver go for 18, 4/6 from outside, there's something wrong in your scheme.


That isn't to say that Casey is a perfect coach. There is always things about a coach to criticize. Hell people criticize Mike ****ing Babcock.

Just saying a coaching change isn't putting this team over the top. Its more likely to make this team worse. This roster just can't accomplish much more than it has. They've maximized their capability, which I think you also have to give credit to Casey for. Its only been Lebron that has been able to take them out the last 3 years.

Realistically, if Lebron goes West and the Raps do nothing this offeason they will have as good of a shot as anyone in the East next year.

I don't disagree with most of that. But I do believe that the Raptors would find the ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory against anyone once the playoffs shook the lesser skilled teams loose and there's only high end opposition left. It just so happens that it's been Lebron doing it, but any team of our calibre or better beats us in the playoffs imo largely because of coaching.

The biggest difference between playoffs and regular season is coaching adjustments. In the regular season you can't put too much emphasis on stopping one type of set, or exploiting one type of matchup. You play your system and tweak as best you can on the fly to manage matchups. The playoffs though? You identify a handful of plays that your opposition runs (and puts up good points per possession on) and you figure out how to make the shots harder. Disrupt handoffs up top? Faster double teams into a player that doesn't distribute well, etc, etc, etc. On the other end, what matchups can you exploit (you'll notice we saw a huge uptick of Demar/Valanciunas P&R sets in the playoffs, both are poor defenders in the P/R...Demar is huge for a guard and yet has never found a screen he can fight through, and Val has the lateral mobility of an aircraft carrier), where are the weaknesses in the defensive scheme and how do you exploit it. But instead of getting one practice and a short film session to sort your shit out, your entire life becomes about that for 2 weeks. It's a huge difference in preparation. It's the biggest reason why we play down to our competition in the playoffs (and get blown out by teams our calibre) imo. Teams figure us out and make adjustments, and we don't do shit other than get told by the head coach to work harder. I'm not being dramatic when I say that I honestly didn't see us make a meaningful tactical adjustment in any game I watched during this playoffs. Casey utilized different pieces on the court to some level of effectiveness at time, but the sets we were running remained the same regardless of what adjustments the opposition had sorted it out. We looked just as bad against the Wizards as we did against the Cavs. The difference is that the Cavs had a Lebron to win the tight games and put his foot on our necks when the Raptors weren't executing.

Head coaching in the NBA, at the championship level, is about in game adjustments. In your rotation, and in your sets/schemes. Casey being roundly out coached is the biggest thing that stands out to me when I watch this team in the playoffs. I watch adjustment after adjustment tried by other coaches and never anything different out of Casey. He just doens't manage the in game chaos well at all and it costs us in the playoffs year after year.

MyNameIsJonas
05-08-2018, 02:32 PM
Casey throwing BeBe in the last 2 minutes of the half for JV, who was eating was so baffling.

He takes forever to adjust.

In game 1 he kept feeding a gassed JV who was not being covered by Love anymore, and in game 2 and 3 he kept having Miles on Love for some reason.

He'll have his game plan, and will stick to it regardless of how the other coach adjusts to him, and either re-adjusts himself too late or nothing at all.

He can beat up on bad teams to the tune of 59 wins in the reg season, but gets eaten alive by good coaches in the playoffs who coach good teams.

Dummying up on the 12 teams trying to tank during the regular season isn't all that impressive

leafman101
05-08-2018, 02:37 PM
He can beat up on bad teams to the tune of 59 wins in the reg season, but gets eaten alive by good coaches in the playoffs who coach good teams.

Dummying up on the 12 teams trying to tank during the regular season isn't all that impressive

I feel like this line of reasoning isn't fair. They haven't lost to anyone in the playoffs other than Lebron in 3 years. They've beat everyone else. They've been eaten alive by Lebron, not Cleveland's superstar coaches.

I get zeke and ME's logic. It makes sense to try to squeeze every last drop out of this roster tactically if you can't make any changes. Casey has been here a long time, and accomplished all he can accomplish here. But there isn't much evidence of him being a bad coach that is the reason the Raps always lose. Thats not the biggest issue here preventing them from beating a player like Lebron, Curry or Durant in a 7 game series.

MindzEye
05-08-2018, 02:48 PM
But thats not the biggest issue here preventing them from beating a player like Lebron, Curry or Durant in a 7 game series.

I'd argue that it actually is. Give us a strong tactical coach and there's a chance. Not a great chance, but a chance. With Casey there's no chance.

If you do the right thing against Lebron, and make him work his balls off to get offence for himself. Stay home on the shooters and keep them quiet, I think this series goes 6-7 games with at least an okay chance of the Raptors pulling out the series win.

If our defensive scheme against the Cavs wasn't ridiculously piss poor, this is a series not a blowout. I mean, explain to me how the Pacers held the Cavs to 92 points a game, and nobody else other than Lebron and Love in double figures, and we're giving up 15-20 points to a couple supporting cast members every night.

The Pacers aren't a better defensive club than the Raptors. But they made Lebron work his balls off to beat them. They used multiple defenders, they used their fouls and they stayed the **** home on the shooters. Let Lebron beat you working his balls off for 2 points at a time.

The one game that Lebron tried to stay home and be a distributor against Indy, they lost. Lebron averages 7 dimes a night the rest of the series as he was forced to score the basketball to beat a very mediocre team. Those 7 dimes came with 4 turnovers a game.

Against the Raptors? ****ing guy averaged 11 assists with 2 turnovers a night. Why can a lesser defensive team make him work, and provide lesser results than the Raptors can?

Adjustments and scheme. Coaching.

MyNameIsJonas
05-08-2018, 02:55 PM
I feel like this line of reasoning isn't fair. They haven't lost to anyone in the playoffs other than Lebron in 3 years. They've beat everyone else. They've been eaten alive by Lebron, not Cleveland's superstar coaches.

I get zeke and ME's logic. It makes sense to try to squeeze every last drop out of this roster tactically if you can't make any changes. Casey has been here a long time, and accomplished all he can accomplish here. But there isn't much evidence of him being a bad coach that is the reason the Raps always lose. Thats not the biggest issue here preventing them from beating a player like Lebron, Curry or Durant in a 7 game series.

They've been swept 3 times in his tenure, and his teams efforts against lebron have arguably gotton worse with each year.

Add to the fact it was a stupid idea to keep him around only to tell him to coach competely differently. That seems unfair to him and the team if he's basically forced into doing something he's not adept to or comfortable with.

If Nick Nurse is the guy spearheading the changes, just let him coach and run with it.

Lastly, from a pure optics standpoint, firing him is way easier than making a trade, and lessens the need for one.

LeafGm
05-08-2018, 03:00 PM
This is an honest question, since I know sweet ****-all about basketball.

If coaching isn't part of the problem here, what's the explanation for the disparity between Pacers/Cavs and Raptors/Cavs?

The Pacers took Lebron through seven hard-fought games, and never lost a game by a larger margin than four points. Then the Raptors come along in the next round and lose in four straight games, with two of those losses being massive blowouts.

So is Indiana actually a far superior team to the Raptors, despite having 11 fewer wins in the regular season? Did they match up particularly well against Lebron in a way the Raptors couldn't?

What's the deal?

MyNameIsJonas
05-08-2018, 03:05 PM
This is an honest question, since I know sweet ****-all about basketball.

If coaching isn't part of the problem here, what's the explanation for the disparity between Pacers/Cavs and Raptors/Cavs?

The Pacers took Lebron through seven hard-fought games, and never lost a game by a larger margin than four points. Then the Raptors come along in the next round and lose in four straight games, with two of those losses being massive blowouts.

So is Indiana actually a far superior team to the Raptors, despite having 11 fewer wins in the regular season? Did they match up particularly well against Lebron in a way the Raptors couldn't?

What's the deal?

short answer

Coaching is part of the problem.

You could count on one hand how many times the Pacers left Kyle Korver wide open. He was a non factor in that series.

Raps left him wide open in the corner 3 times a quarter and he was jacking up shots at a 2007 rate.

MindzEye
05-08-2018, 03:23 PM
This is an honest question, since I know sweet ****-all about basketball.

If coaching isn't part of the problem here, what's the explanation for the disparity between Pacers/Cavs and Raptors/Cavs?

The Pacers took Lebron through seven hard-fought games, and never lost a game by a larger margin than four points. Then the Raptors come along in the next round and lose in four straight games, with two of those losses being massive blowouts.

So is Indiana actually a far superior team to the Raptors, despite having 11 fewer wins in the regular season? Did they match up particularly well against Lebron in a way the Raptors couldn't?

What's the deal?

About as close to a perfect example of how different coaching can change a series. The Pacers identified an offensive set (oladipo up top) that the Cavs couldn't guard and ran it non stop (this was not how their offence worked in the regular season), forcing the Cavs to adjust (full time double team up top) and then adjusted to that by getting the ball to the open man at the free throw line and then got open shots off of the Cavs rotations.

On the other end, they just stayed home on the shooters and let Lebron go 1 on 1 all series. Lebron is a distributor by nature and he turned the ball over a lot in that series trying to look for other people who were covered, when the 1 on 1 defence was strong on him. They ran him off high screens and tried to establish a P/R game with him and the defenders just stayed the **** home on their guy. Well coached with a strong game plan is how a team that was supposed to be a lottery team this year took one of the best players in history to 7 games.

We ran the same sets we've run all year against the Cavs, we overhelped on Lebron and left guys who are useless other than as spot up shooters wide open. No adjustments

That is the difference between the Pacers and Raptors, and why the series with the less talented opposition was way more competitive. It's really easy to look at the two series and say "but Oladipo was really good, and Demar was terrible" as the reason, but Oladipo was put in the position to be really good by his coach, and Demar was put in a position to look terrible by his.

TheCountofMonteCristo
05-08-2018, 07:00 PM
The Raptors showed over the season they were the better team. However, one player on the Cavaliers is superior arguably over anyone in the NBA. When he is hot, he can win games all by himself.

That being said, the Raptors were scared going into the series knowing their past record. I watched a fair amount of the series because I like watching James play. The Raptors looked scared at times. I told Metalleaf before the series if the Raptors played their game, as 1 seed, should not be afraid.

zeke
05-09-2018, 10:17 AM
Toronto Raptors Head Coach Dwane Casey is the 2018 recipient of the Michael H. Goldberg NBCA Coach of the Year Award, the National Basketball Coaches Association announced today. It is the only award voted upon by the winners’ peers, the Head Coaches of all 30 NBA teams.

The voting for this year’s award once again illustrates the depth of coaching excellence in the NBA, as 8 of the 30 Head Coaches received votes. In addition to Casey, the following Coaches also received votes: Brett Brown, Mike D’Antoni, Nate McMillan, Gregg Popovich, Doc Rivers, Quin Snyder and Terry Stotts.

CaptainBolduke
05-09-2018, 10:26 AM
Congrats?

Volcanologist
05-09-2018, 11:56 AM
haha, of course

MindzEye
05-09-2018, 12:04 PM
Remember when Sam Mitchell won one of these things?

zeke
05-09-2018, 02:14 PM
(((Eric Koreen))) @ekoreen
1m
“I can’t pull the culture reset off this year, can I?” - Masai

zeke
05-09-2018, 02:14 PM
(((Eric Koreen))) @ekoreen
1m
I cant pull the culture reset off this year, can I? - Masai

zeke
05-09-2018, 02:27 PM
Ryan Wolstat @WolstatSun
52s
Masai says Raptors won't tank. We're going to grow, we're going to win, we'll find young players and develop them, he says. "We're not doing that here (tanking)."
Josh Lewenberg @JLew1050
1m
Masai says Casey's been unbelievable and what he's done will 'remain in history', but evaluation process will be the same as it's bene the last few years.
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Blake Murphy @BlakeMurphyODC
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"I believe in this. I believe in the city...Toronto is not going anywhere. Toronto basketball will be here for 100 years." - Ujiri. "Anybody who wants to make fun, we're proud of the moments we've had."
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"Toronto basketball will be here for 100 years and will stay here, so anybody who wants to make fun or poke fans, we're proud of the moments we've had and what is going to come."
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Michael Grange @michaelgrange
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"You go through stages in winning, maybe we're going through a stage ... " -- Ujiri
(((Eric Koreen))) @ekoreen
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Ujiri says he’s had discussions with Casey this year exact same way as in past. “What these guys have done will remain in history. … I think we have to respect that."
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Ryan Wolstat @WolstatSun
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Masai says "Coach Casey has been unbelievable for our organization, I treat it the exact same way I do every year. Go back look at everything. Have had discussions with him. Met for 2 hours this morning." So, doesn't say one way or other but says respect the history

WolstatSun's avatar
Ryan Wolstat @WolstatSun
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Ujiri says Raptors are relevant in NBA now and with that comes heightened expectations to produce and bring it all the time. Challenges for organization to live up to.
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This is increasingly becoming a stump speech for Ujiri. He’s heated.
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Ryan Wolstat @WolstatSun
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Ujiri says he has to look at body of work over last five years and decide how the next five years looks. Evaluate strengths and weaknesses of Casey/Lowry/DeRozan.
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“To me, it’s not doomsday. Where our program is, it’s not doomsday.” Have to meet challenges of growing.

zeke
05-09-2018, 02:28 PM
Ryan Wolstat @WolstatSun
52s
Masai says Raptors won't tank. We're going to grow, we're going to win, we'll find young players and develop them, he says. "We're not doing that here (tanking)."
Josh Lewenberg @JLew1050
1m
Masai says Casey's been unbelievable and what he's done will 'remain in history', but evaluation process will be the same as it's bene the last few years.
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Blake Murphy @BlakeMurphyODC
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"I believe in this. I believe in the city...Toronto is not going anywhere. Toronto basketball will be here for 100 years." - Ujiri. "Anybody who wants to make fun, we're proud of the moments we've had."
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Ryan Wolstat @WolstatSun
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"Toronto basketball will be here for 100 years and will stay here, so anybody who wants to make fun or poke fans, we're proud of the moments we've had and what is going to come."
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Michael Grange @michaelgrange
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"You go through stages in winning, maybe we're going through a stage ... " -- Ujiri
(((Eric Koreen))) @ekoreen
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Ujiri says hes had discussions with Casey this year exact same way as in past. What these guys have done will remain in history. I think we have to respect that."
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Ryan Wolstat @WolstatSun
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Masai says "Coach Casey has been unbelievable for our organization, I treat it the exact same way I do every year. Go back look at everything. Have had discussions with him. Met for 2 hours this morning." So, doesn't say one way or other but says respect the history

WolstatSun's avatar
Ryan Wolstat @WolstatSun
2m
Ujiri says Raptors are relevant in NBA now and with that comes heightened expectations to produce and bring it all the time. Challenges for organization to live up to.
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(((Eric Koreen))) @ekoreen
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This is increasingly becoming a stump speech for Ujiri. Hes heated.
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Ryan Wolstat @WolstatSun
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Ujiri says he has to look at body of work over last five years and decide how the next five years looks. Evaluate strengths and weaknesses of Casey/Lowry/DeRozan.
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To me, its not doomsday. Where our program is, its not doomsday. Have to meet challenges of growing.

MyNameIsJonas
05-09-2018, 02:38 PM
Not one of these idiots bothered to ask if the team was prepared to go deep into the luxury tax to make the team better.

not that i expect any answer other than we'll evaluate.

MyNameIsJonas
05-09-2018, 02:38 PM
Not one of these idiots bothered to ask if the team was prepared to go deep into the luxury tax to make the team better.

not that i expect any answer other than we'll evaluate.

MindzEye
05-09-2018, 02:51 PM
Glad to hear that we're not tanking.

We're at a place where we should be building and retooling, to continue the run of 50+ win clubs. Getting the mix right (including the right coaching) so that we become a legit playoff threat is the next step.

MindzEye
05-09-2018, 02:51 PM
Glad to hear that we're not tanking.

We're at a place where we should be building and retooling, to continue the run of 50+ win clubs. Getting the mix right (including the right coaching) so that we become a legit playoff threat is the next step.

Volcanologist
05-09-2018, 03:14 PM
well fair enough...it's a lot easier to get worse from 59 wins than better. you have to make good basketball trades for DD and Lowry, I guess.

seems the coaching failure was egregious enough here that maybe that could be enough. given the right guy in place.

that and not playing against Lebron James.

Leafin'
05-10-2018, 09:58 PM
From ESPN:


Upgrading for the postseason

Raptors get: Guard Nicolas Batum; Charlotte's 2019 first-round pick (top-10 protected in 2019, top-4 protected in 2020 and 2021, converts to second-round picks in 2022 and 2023 if not conveyed); Utah's 2018 second-round pick

Hornets get: Guard DeMar DeRozan

Jazz get: Forward/center Frank Kaminsky



Finding a top draft pick

Raptors get: Guard Wesley Matthews, Dallas' 2018 first-round pick

Mavericks get: DeRozan


Wiggins comes home

Raptors get: Guard/forward Andrew Wiggins

Wolves get: DeRozan


The Kawhi play
Raptors get: Forwards Kawhi Leonard and Rudy Gay

Spurs get: DeRozan and forwards OG Anunoby and Pascal Siakam

Which one do you do?

MindzEye
05-10-2018, 11:08 PM
I guess I'll address all 3:

1) This is really enticing but I'm curious if either of Bagley/Jackson are worth taking a massive step back. I dig Wes Matthews as well (he made my list for bench mobb shooting guards last week). This would precipitate an even bigger turnover over of the roster than even I had suggested, if the desired outcome is to remain competitive. I'm curious which of Bagley or Jackson will turn into the better pro (my money is on Bagley at the moment). Doncic scares the shit out of me here though. The kid is a ridiculous lights out shooter, but I haven't seen nearly enough off ball quickness or handles to suggest that he's going to get open enough in the NBA for that sweet stroke to make a difference. Way too much downside there. I know he gets compared to a Hayward/Manu hybrid, but I just don't see enough of the "Manu" in there to justify a top 3-4 selection with the 2 athletic stretch 4's there to be picked.

I would have a really hard time saying yes to this, because I don't think anything available is a legit program changer, and I'm generally against tanking given where we are

2) No. All sorts of no. I would do a Wiggins/Teague for Lowry and stuff deal. But I don't think it can be over stated just how bad Wiggins was this season and how mediocre a feature player he's been so far in the NBA. Like I've said a few times, there are absolutely tools in there that can be turned into a perennial all star (or better). But his lack of motor on the defensive end suggests that a lot of what's holding him back is between his ears. I don't feel like being the team spending 30+ million to figure out if he has the mind set to become great, because right now the answer is no.

3) So much yes. Kawhi would give us a legit stud who is a half tier below the truly elite, and a solid step up from Demar (on both ends) signed for 1 more year at a very, very reasonable number (20M) and is then definitely someone worth throwing a monster deal at to keep him. Rudy has aged like fine wine and has transformed himself into a very respectable stretch 4, signed for one year and cheap. I dig OG and Siakam, but as I've said recently I think both are limited by lack of handles.

Leafin'
05-11-2018, 12:35 AM
I guess I'll address all 3:

The Batum one isn't even worth discussing lol.


1) This is really enticing but I'm curious if either of Bagley/Jackson are worth taking a massive step back. I dig Wes Matthews as well (he made my list for bench mobb shooting guards last week). This would precipitate an even bigger turnover over of the roster than even I had suggested, if the desired outcome is to remain competitive. I'm curious which of Bagley or Jackson will turn into the better pro (my money is on Bagley at the moment). Doncic scares the shit out of me here though. The kid is a ridiculous lights out shooter, but I haven't seen nearly enough off ball quickness or handles to suggest that he's going to get open enough in the NBA for that sweet stroke to make a difference. Way too much downside there. I know he gets compared to a Hayward/Manu hybrid, but I just don't see enough of the "Manu" in there to justify a top 3-4 selection with the 2 athletic stretch 4's there to be picked.

I would have a really hard time saying yes to this, because I don't think anything available is a legit program changer, and I'm generally against tanking given where we are.

This is one that sounds a bit like what Masai was talking about but not really. Masai mentioned how we are "going to get young players and develop them" while also saying "we are not tanking". Well in this we don't really tank unless the pick is shit. Matthews would be a decent stopgap. The prize is that pick. One of Ayton, Bagley, Doncic, Jackson, or Porter will be there. i'm high on Porter personally and think if he wasn't hurt would be a top 3 pick. Would Dallas do this? Probably not since Cuban has already said that tanking for a pick is probably the best way of turning it around in Dallas.


2) No. All sorts of no. I would do a Wiggins/Teague for Lowry and stuff deal. But I don't think it can be over stated just how bad Wiggins was this season and how mediocre a feature player he's been so far in the NBA. Like I've said a few times, there are absolutely tools in there that can be turned into a perennial all star (or better). But his lack of motor on the defensive end suggests that a lot of what's holding him back is between his ears. I don't feel like being the team spending 30+ million to figure out if he has the mind set to become great, because right now the answer is no.

You're really down on Wiggins eh? The lack of defensive effort is concerning for sure. I think he offers enough upside at a young age to be worth a gamble. Thibs is known to be a hard ass. Derozan for a younger version of Derozan wouldn't be the worst deal. I think you're overvaluing Lowry a bit in recent posts. No where else have i read that he has the value you assume he does. I'd love for it to be true but 2 more years of Lowry declining doesn't seem like good value. Derozan for Wiggins + would be a risky move but one that could pay off pretty big.


3) So much yes. Kawhi would give us a legit stud who is a half tier below the truly elite, and a solid step up from Demar (on both ends) signed for 1 more year at a very, very reasonable number (20M) and is then definitely someone worth throwing a monster deal at to keep him. Rudy has aged like fine wine and has transformed himself into a very respectable stretch 4, signed for one year and cheap. I dig OG and Siakam, but as I've said recently I think both are limited by lack of handles.

Agreed on this. Kawhi would be a stud. I don't see this happening unless the rumors of a rift are true. I fully expect Kawhi to stay and all this bs to be forgotten. I also expect another team to beat our offer if it does turn out they are moving Kawhi.

MindzEye
05-11-2018, 12:55 AM
The Batum one isn't even worth discussing lol.

It's really not




This is one that sounds a bit like what Masai was talking about but not really. Masai mentioned how we are "going to get young players and develop them" while also saying "we are not tanking". Well in this we don't really tank unless the pick is shit. Matthews would be a decent stopgap. The prize is that pick. One of Ayton, Bagley, Doncic, Jackson, or Porter will be there. i'm high on Porter personally and think if he wasn't hurt would be a top 3 pick. Would Dallas do this? Probably not since Cuban has already said that tanking for a pick is probably the best way of turning it around in Dallas.

Cube is cool with playing the rebuild game, because they pretty organically built a contender, went throug the contending cycle, made a bunch of mediocre to bad moves trying to maintain that after it's best before date and then declined. They're in the right place, and the right time to hit the lottery a couple of times, clear some old bodies and bad contracts, and start making splashes once they have a team of young athletes in place. So yeah, I doubt they trade the pick. With that said my previous point stands...no game changer other than Ayton imo, and he won't be available to us in a Demar trade, 100%.



You're really down on Wiggins eh? The lack of defensive effort is concerning for sure. I think he offers enough upside at a young age to be worth a gamble. Thibs is known to be a hard ass. Derozan for a younger version of Derozan wouldn't be the worst deal. I think you're overvaluing Lowry a bit in recent posts. No where else have i read that he has the value you assume he does. I'd love for it to be true but 2 more years of Lowry declining doesn't seem like good value. Derozan for Wiggins + would be a risky move but one that could pay off pretty big.

I dislike the media narrative in the NBA every bit as much as I dislike it in the NHL. We get told stuff by the hockey media all the time that is obvious garbage. Remember when every non trash defenceman was going to cost us Nylander or Marner in trade and we would be smart to make those trades immediately because we need a defender? Yeah, NBA stuff is no different. It's way more instructive to look at what moves actually get made and their composition. Top 10 point guard, only signed for 2 years. The only stink on him is the "Lebron's bitch" stink. People can assume his decline, and that's cool it will happen at some point but it hasn't happened yet. All of the metrics point to him holding steady in his prime this season. He's not reliant on quickness and athleticism, but on decision making, shooting, court IQ. All that shit ages well. He's actually a really good bet to play out the next 2 years as a top 10 PG. It's really easy to buy into the narrative right now and be down on Lowry and Demar, but we need to remember that there are about 20 teams in the league that are trying to figure out how to just get into the situations we keep choking in. They're all trying to win too, and Lowry is a legit upgrade for almost all of them.

As for Wiggins, I'm down on his performance absolutely, because his performance warrants it. Wiggins was a 2 win player this year and had a negative VORP. Kyle was a 10 win player (with a 5.0 VORP). The statistics suggest that if both perform like they did this season but wearing different jerseys, we're a 51 win team and the Wolves become a 55 win team. That's a hell of a swing. Even assume Wiggins bounces back to previous performances and it's a 6 win swing instead of an 8 game swing. So much ****ing talent, but this idea that he's massively valuable and that Kyle is a throwaway is silly and one that I doubt NBA front offices (who pay way more attention to analytics than they do to narrative) put much stock in.




Agreed on this. Kawhi would be a stud. I don't see this happening unless the rumors of a rift are true. I fully expect Kawhi to stay and all this bs to be forgotten. I also expect another team to beat our offer if it does turn out they are moving Kawhi.

Boston has so many cheap moveable pieces that it will be tough beating their offer. I think it's way more likely that Kawhi stays in SAS and they punt on Aldridge.

zeke
05-11-2018, 11:24 AM
Casey fired.

Volcanologist
05-11-2018, 11:29 AM
had to happen.

zeke
05-11-2018, 11:31 AM
masai deserved it more, imo.

drewser
05-11-2018, 11:46 AM
Former Atlanta Hawks coach Mike Budenholzer is expected to get a close inspection for the Raptors opening, league sources said. Budenholzer met with Milwaukee on Tuesday, league sources said.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23471720/toronto-raptors-fire-head-coach-dwane-casey-7-seasons

GEEMAN
05-11-2018, 11:53 AM
Casey fired.

step 1 ...accomplished

step 2 ....major roster changes....

zeke
05-11-2018, 11:56 AM
break down budenholzer for us, ME.

Bleedsblue&white
05-11-2018, 11:57 AM
Raps are getting a bit of grief for announcing this under the Dubas signing.
Does seem a bit cowardly.

CaptainBolduke
05-11-2018, 12:02 PM
Dubas is just a pawn. Casey means more. It's bigger news.

The GM position in sports is nothing more than an assistant position in many cases now.

i.e Bobby Webster.

wiseguy1
05-11-2018, 12:36 PM
masai deserved it more, imo.

Raps couldn't win at least one game against the slow as molasses Cavs? Wow... the coach really really blew it.

Bleedsblue&white
05-11-2018, 01:11 PM
Dubas is just a pawn. Casey means more. It's bigger news.

The GM position in sports is nothing more than an assistant position in many cases now.

i.e Bobby Webster.


What? I rarely understand what you're getting at, no different here.

MindzEye
05-11-2018, 01:18 PM
masai deserved it more, imo.

More? No

Casey should have been fired last year at the latest, the absolute latest. Everything I've read suggests that the offensive system was Nick Nurse's and Casey finally got the **** out of the way and let it be implemented because Masai told him it was getting implemented. So the best thing about the team this season wasn't his system and he had to be told to implement it.

Masai probably deserves it, but more than Casey? No

MindzEye
05-11-2018, 01:20 PM
Dubas is just a pawn. Casey means more. It's bigger news.

The GM position in sports is nothing more than an assistant position in many cases now.

i.e Bobby Webster.

The GM position in the Leafs still has a lot of pull on player acquisition. A lot more than Bobby Webster has.

MyNameIsJonas
05-11-2018, 01:28 PM
The only thing i know about Budenholzer is he had 1-2 years of a really mediocre looking Hawks team winning the conference and pretending to be a contender.

Also, they were one of the first teams to use a 12 man bench with success over there.

He'd be getting a far more talented group here, than he ever had there.

Unless M.E. can sway me to thinking otherwise, he'd be one of the few outside the org guys i'd be keen on

MindzEye
05-11-2018, 01:31 PM
break down budenholzer for us, ME.

Good coach. Coached the Hawks when they finished 1st in the EC a couple of years ago. Is a Pop disciple, was assistant in SAS during the glory years of Saint Timmy.

Is a massive proponent of the space and pace style offence that we ran this year, except he'll turn it up to 11. I'm a bit concerned about the Hawks defensive performances under him though. They had a strong group of on ball defenders while he was there and never could turn out elite defensive performances. I also fear for Val. Budenholzer likes everyone to be able to make the ball sing, and JV has improved at a lot of shit, but his passing is still pretty ****ing meh.

Has the rep of being an absolutely fantastic X's and O's guy. This should be the death of the Demar ISO being our only play in crunch time.

zeke
05-11-2018, 01:32 PM
More? No

Casey should have been fired last year at the latest, the absolute latest. Everything I've read suggests that the offensive system was Nick Nurse's and Casey finally got the **** out of the way and let it be implemented because Masai told him it was getting implemented. So the best thing about the team this season wasn't his system and he had to be told to implement it.

Masai probably deserves it, but more than Casey? No

5yrs. 0 quality NBA starters added.

MindzEye
05-11-2018, 01:49 PM
5yrs. 0 quality NBA starters added.

Yeah, and I'll take that over needing to have your job threatened to stop running Demar and Lowry ISO's all night.

MyNameIsJonas
05-11-2018, 01:51 PM
I can get much more fully behind a Budenholzer hire if there is a top defensive assistant brought in as his lieutennant, because it doesn't sound like that's what this guy does, and Casey was a legit problem at it

Wayward DP
05-11-2018, 02:22 PM
Casey is probably the best coach in Raptors history. Obviously he had his flaws. Sad to see him go but not surprised, and something had to give.

He was a great coach in many ways but I think it is obvious that the combination of him and this roster had plateaued. Easier to fire the coach then get rid of all the players.

MindzEye
05-11-2018, 02:36 PM
Casey is the best coach in Raptors history.

The Raptors have a laughable history of coaches though...Our in game management has been generally terrible for most of our history.

wiseguy1
05-11-2018, 02:53 PM
Next coach of the Raptors?

https://imagesvc.timeincapp.com/v3/fan/image?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhoopshabit.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fgetty-images%2F2017%2F07%2F546620862.jpeg&c=sc&w=850&h=560

MyNameIsJonas
05-11-2018, 02:55 PM
I think she gets an interview, but i'm guessing if they don't go internal ( Nurse, Stackhouse) they go experience ( Budenholzer).

HabsFan1
05-11-2018, 03:28 PM
I would see if Stack interested in assisting under Nurse for sure. But I think it will come down to those two guys.

MyNameIsJonas
05-11-2018, 03:55 PM
I would see if Stack interested in assisting under Nurse for sure. But I think it will come down to those two guys.

I mean, Budenholzer is interesting.

You should also make phone calls to Jay Wright and Jeff Van Gundy, and interview Hammon, Messina, Blatt and Few ( and any other highly regarded assistant)

You basically know what Nurse/Stack are going to offer, it would be silly to not get fresh ideas from people in interviews.

As long as they stay away from the known disasters like Stan Van GUndy, Mark Jackson and Mike Brown

uncus
05-11-2018, 04:03 PM
So everyone here (or alot of you) seem to like the idea of bright smart young people being put into places/positions of power......who are the young smartest coaches out there who could be a star in the making?
BTW what makes val so important. Would he have very much trade value? Would he be the easiest part to replace? Just started watching basketball a few years ago.

MindzEye
05-11-2018, 04:06 PM
Hammon will be a head coach in the NBA, but I don't think it should be this summer. Only a couple of years experience as an assistant. Basically in the same boat as Stack and I don't want him either.

Wayward DP
05-11-2018, 04:09 PM
So everyone here (or alot of you) seem to like the idea of bright smart young people being put into places/positions of power......who are the young smartest coaches out there who could be a star in the making?
BTW what makes val so important. Would he have very much trade value? Would he be the easiest part to replace? Just started watching basketball a few years ago.

well, for starters, there are very few players in the league today who can adequately defend him one on one. Val is pretty close to instant offense in the post, which is quite valuable.

but he doesn't have much trade value, apparently they explored that last off season. and that is on account of the league moving away from traditional big men.

MyNameIsJonas
05-11-2018, 04:22 PM
Hammon will be a head coach in the NBA, but I don't think it should be this summer. Only a couple of years experience as an assistant. Basically in the same boat as Stack and I don't want him either.

Yeah i tend to agree, i still interview both though.

I'm open to Budenholzer if their is a defensive coach high up on his staff, and frankly if you go Bud, Nick Nurse seems kind of redundant. I'd really try to sell Stackhouse on taking an NBA assistant gig with a Budenholzer, Blatt or Messina rather than jumping at an Orlando gig.

I want no part of NBA retread dinosaurs like SVG, Mark Jackson, Mike Brown or Frank Vogel.

MindzEye
05-11-2018, 05:07 PM
So everyone here (or alot of you) seem to like the idea of bright smart young people being put into places/positions of power......who are the young smartest coaches out there who could be a star in the making?

I think the word "young" is relative here. There isn't a young, differently thinking coach to be had. The NBA had it's proper analytics upheaval 5-7 years ago (a process the NHL is just dipping it's toes into now) with space and pace changing the game significantly. Most of the "young" coaches who were forward thinkers at the beginning of that process are NBA head coaches now, and tweaks on a general theme is the main difference between most coaches now. To more directly answer your question though, Messina (SAS), Nurse (TOR), Budenholzer (Free Agent) are the three most forward thinking. None of them are particularly young though. Budenholzer is almost 50 I think and he's the youngest of the lot.


BTW what makes val so important. Would he have very much trade value? Would he be the easiest part to replace? Just started watching basketball a few years ago.

Val is our most efficient offensive player by quite a bit and his under utilization under Casey was criminal until this season, when at least he had an excuse for the first half of this season when we were finally running a proper offence and Val looked lost in it. In previous seasons though when we were allowing Demar to chuck bad 2 point shots all night, and bad 3 point shooters kill us with misses, it's criminal that our most efficient scorer wasn't getting 14-15 shots a night.

MindzEye
05-11-2018, 05:08 PM
Yeah i tend to agree, i still interview both though.

I'm open to Budenholzer if their is a defensive coach high up on his staff, and frankly if you go Bud, Nick Nurse seems kind of redundant. I'd really try to sell Stackhouse on taking an NBA assistant gig with a Budenholzer, Blatt or Messina rather than jumping at an Orlando gig.

I want no part of NBA retread dinosaurs like SVG, Mark Jackson, Mike Brown or Frank Vogel.

Yeah, it's either Bud or Nurse, I don't see both being in house together. Pretty redundant.

As for retreads, the only one who interests me is JVG. JVG bringing defence to Nick Nurse's offensive system could be something here.

MyNameIsJonas
05-11-2018, 05:11 PM
Yeah, it's either Bud or Nurse, I don't see both being in house together. Pretty redundant.

As for retreads, the only one who interests me is JVG. JVG bringing defence to Nick Nurse's offensive system could be something here.

JVG kinda feels like he's in Bill Cowher territory.

Really far removed from coaching at this point and adores being in the booth.

Messina and Blatt should probably get a longer look than they will.

MyNameIsJonas
05-11-2018, 05:25 PM
If you bring in Bud and he doesn't want to use Val i wonder if you revisit Val+ for Drummond and just have the latter be a defensive presence and beast on the glass without ever having to run much through him and surround him with Kyle, Demar and shooters.

MindzEye
05-11-2018, 05:34 PM
JVG kinda feels like he's in Bill Cowher territory.

Really far removed from coaching at this point and adores being in the booth.

Messina and Blatt should probably get a longer look than they will.

Messina should get a really, really long look. My 2 "issues" with Messina is that 1) He's 57 and I'd prefer someone a bit younger 2) He's well known to have an explosive temper that Pop keeps in check...we don't have a Pop.

worm
05-11-2018, 05:35 PM
ageist

MindzEye
05-11-2018, 06:14 PM
ageist

Yes and no.

If it was a 57 yr old guy who had spent his entire career in winning north american programs dealing with the Can/US media and North American players, I'd be a bit more bullish on it. But it's a 57 yr old Italian guy who is a euro league legend, having spent most of his career in Europe and what hasn't been in Europe, has been as an assistant in SAS and a consultant for the Lakers. I question if he has the flexibility necessary to develop young north american millionaires, the way he did young european thousandaires. There's age gap, a culture cap, a language barrier (he's fluent, but as someone in a relationship with an immigrant who is also fluent, you can still have some interesting communication issues).

I'd prefer that we go with a guy who has more league experience if we're going with a guy who is almost 60.

HabsFan1
05-11-2018, 11:42 PM
My shortlist is

JVG (like to see why he would do with these guys defensively.)
Nurse (with someone who can can coach D as an assistant l)
Bud (kinda similar to nurse so I would stay in house if it was me)
Hammon (totally new attitude, this is a gamble but I wouldnt be upset if they took it).
Stack (I have a gut feeling that he will make an awesome coach and I dont like the losing him part).

MyNameIsJonas
05-12-2018, 12:15 AM
People seem to forget Jerry Stackhouse was one of the worst defensive stars of his era. I have no idea if he does D as a coach

MindzEye
05-12-2018, 01:41 AM
Yeah, I'm a hard pass on Stack. Let him go cut his teeth with a 25 win team.

Same with Hammon tbh. They both probably deserve opportunities, just not for a 59 win team.

MyNameIsJonas
05-12-2018, 02:21 AM
Yeah, I'm a hard pass on Stack. Let him go cut his teeth with a 25 win team.

Same with Hammon tbh. They both probably deserve opportunities, just not for a 59 win team.

If we were in a reset it would be one thing.

Also as for Hammon, doesn't she just make the most sense to take over from Pop once he leaves and they rebuild?

MindzEye
05-12-2018, 03:55 AM
If we were in a reset it would be one thing.

Also as for Hammon, doesn't she just make the most sense to take over from Pop once he leaves and they rebuild?

They always have a handful of assistants who are ready for the big chair, but yeah she could be one of them. Can't see Messina sticking around to run a rebuild though, not at his age.

MyNameIsJonas
05-12-2018, 08:49 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6ElE2xs48c


The Game Of Zones series is brilliant, but this one i happened to love more than most.

CH1
05-12-2018, 11:02 AM
Chokers are the best people.

It's a given that NBA players try as hard as they can in the playoffs. There's a lot at stake, and they all give it their best effort. But things are very different in the regular season. Some teams try really hard, while other teams are simply lazy, depriving their fans of what they deserve.

Because of this inconsistency of effort, in the playoffs one often sees teams with mediocre regular season records dominate other seemingly "better" teams. The teams that lose out despite outstanding regular season records are called "chokers"; although in reality the problem is that they are simply less talented. Even worse, the losing team is mocked despite being better human beings, as they have given their best effort throughout the entire regular season.

When I was young, character still mattered. People were expected to exhibit positive personal characteristics, such as honesty, hard work and dignity. Now we respect "winners". It's OK to enjoy the style of play of winning teams more than losing teams, but we should always respect chokers more than teams that overachieve in the playoffs. The overachievers don't have the personal qualities that are worthy of respect. Chokers are the best people.

http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2018/05/three_contraria.html

drewser
05-12-2018, 05:45 PM
The Toronto Raptors and Atlanta Hawks were two teams that wanted to select Giannis Antetokounmpo on draft night in 2013.

"Atlanta was really determined to get him," said Wojnarowski on The Woj Pod.

"I will submit the Danny Ferry sob story about this one," replied Brian Windhorst.

"Danny Ferry, Wes Wilcox were really focused on him," said Wojnarowski. "And Masai (Ujiri) had a deal in Toronto. Masai was working with Oklahoma City on a possible trade. I think Oklahoma City was at ten that year and they took Steven Adams. Ten or 11, or 12. Somewhere in there. Once (Steven) Adams made it to the Thunder, there was no trade. But I think if Adams would have been taken ahead of them, Oklahoma City may have traded out of there and Toronto would have gotten him.

"The mythology of Giannis' draft year, because it was a horrendous draft. Especially at the top."

The pick owned by the Thunder that year coincidentally was Toronto's, which they dealt to the Rockets for Kyle Lowry and was then moved to Oklahoma City in 2012 for James Harden.

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/249855/Raptors-Had-Deal-With-Thunder-To-Select-Giannis-If-Steven-Adams-Was-Off-Board

Leafin'
05-12-2018, 06:34 PM
How will Demar and Lowry take to a new coaching philosophy? Old dogs new tricks. We have a bunch of young guys on the roster that look like they could be solid contributors. Would we be better off trading both Demar and Lowry off for younger players that aren't as established as them but have some good potential.

What about targetting a guy like Gary Harris on the Nuggets. A young 3+D SG that has his new deal coming into effect this summer. A deal something like Harris + Chandler + 14th for Derozan. I don't think we need to go scorched earth rebuild but finding guys that are young and fit the mold of what Masai is trying to build here.

MyNameIsJonas
05-12-2018, 06:49 PM
How will Demar and Lowry take to a new coaching philosophy? Old dogs new tricks. We have a bunch of young guys on the roster that look like they could be solid contributors. Would we be better off trading both Demar and Lowry off for younger players that aren't as established as them but have some good potential.

What about targetting a guy like Gary Harris on the Nuggets. A young 3+D SG that has his new deal coming into effect this summer. A deal something like Harris + Chandler + 14th for Derozan. I don't think we need to go scorched earth rebuild but finding guys that are young and fit the mold of what Masai is trying to build here.

It sounds like they want someone to have the same philosophy just implement it better than Casey did.

Budenholzer's teams shot more threes than anyone (including GSW) since 2015

And if they go Nurse, he was the backbone of implementing what they did this year

Leafin'
05-12-2018, 07:01 PM
It sounds like they want someone to have the same philosophy just implement it better than Casey did.

Budenholzer's teams shot more threes than anyone (including GSW) since 2015

And if they go Nurse, he was the backbone of implementing what they did this year

Will a new voice be enough to have them change? Was it Casey that allowed them to revert back to iso ball in the final minutes? I think a big part of it was Demar and Lowry had been allowed to do this for so long that it became second nature to them.

Masai has been chicken shit in his tenure here. Hopefully this coaching change will be the start of some creative maneuvering by management. Shooting more 3's is nice but we need guys that can stick them. Acquiring a couple guys that may currently be worse than Lowry and Derozan individually may hurt initially but prove to be in the best interest for the long term outlook of the team.

Leafin'
05-12-2018, 07:04 PM
BUT let me say that me calling Masai chicken shit doesn't mean that i expected him to give up Lowry and Demar in free agency or for anything less than a good deal for the raps. They were on the upswing and worth giving a look. I'm not sure that just hiring a new coach will change all that much barring a sudden explosion from a young player into star status.

MyNameIsJonas
05-12-2018, 07:18 PM
Will a new voice be enough to have them change? Was it Casey that allowed them to revert back to iso ball in the final minutes? I think a big part of it was Demar and Lowry had been allowed to do this for so long that it became second nature to them.

Masai has been chicken shit in his tenure here. Hopefully this coaching change will be the start of some creative maneuvering by management. Shooting more 3's is nice but we need guys that can stick them. Acquiring a couple guys that may currently be worse than Lowry and Derozan individually may hurt initially but prove to be in the best interest for the long term outlook of the team.

My problems with Casey and his in game adjustments are one thing, he's brutal at it, and his top 5 in O and D in the regular season is tainted a bit for me because of how bad 1/3 of the league is and how healthy the Raptors were relative to the rest of the league, especially the East.

Putting that aside, the notion of taking a long tenured NBA coach and demanding he change styles never sat well with me. It's not fair to said coach if he's forced into doing something that's not natural to him, nor is it fair to said system if the best possible candidate isn't implementing it.

if Budenholzer, Nurse or whoever get the gig and are 100% committed to this ball movement, 3 shooting offense Masai wants, and can factor in some legitimate ability to adapt in game, i think it makes a world of difference.

MindzEye
05-12-2018, 07:53 PM
Will a new voice be enough to have them change? Was it Casey that allowed them to revert back to iso ball in the final minutes? I think a big part of it was Demar and Lowry had been allowed to do this for so long that it became second nature to them.

I think we can look at this one of two ways:

1) This was Casey's choice
2) Casey was unable to get these two to buy in to a team based system in late clock for years

Neither is a good look, both are worth looking for a new voice over.


Masai has been chicken shit in his tenure here. Hopefully this coaching change will be the start of some creative maneuvering by management. Shooting more 3's is nice but we need guys that can stick them. Acquiring a couple guys that may currently be worse than Lowry and Derozan individually may hurt initially but prove to be in the best interest for the long term outlook of the team.

I've spent more than enough keystrokes on what I think Masai needs to do, but I agree in general. He needs to find his balls this summer.

Leafin'
05-12-2018, 08:08 PM
I think we can look at this one of two ways:

1) This was Casey's choice
2) Casey was unable to get these two to buy in to a team based system in late clock for years

Neither is a good look, both are worth looking for a new voice over.

If thats the case than can we realilstically expect them to buy in under a new coach? Last thing we need is a situation where they sulk for a year because the coach is hard on them or things aren't going "how they used to". That could potentially kill the value that they currently have. I don't ever expect another VC for trash trade but thinking back what a backbreaker that was for the franchise it'd hurt to see it again.


I've spent more than enough keystrokes on what I think Masai needs to do, but I agree in general. He needs to find his balls this summer.

The last time Masai was in a position to trade a star player he did pretty good.


The Nuggets traded Melo to the New York Knicks tonight, a league source said. Denver gets Wilson Chandler, Raymond Felton, Danilo Gallinari, Timofey Mozgov, the Knicks 2014 first-round draft pick, the Warriors' 2012 second-round pick, the Warriors' 2013 second-round pick and $3 million in cash.

Sign me up for the equivalent of that for Derozan. Yes yes i know its not happening. But the earlier trade i mentioned would be something similar.

MindzEye
05-12-2018, 08:15 PM
If thats the case than can we realilstically expect them to buy in under a new coach? Last thing we need is a situation where they sulk for a year because the coach is hard on them or things aren't going "how they used to". That could potentially kill the value that they currently have. I don't ever expect another VC for trash trade but thinking back what a backbreaker that was for the franchise it'd hurt to see it again.

Depends on who the voice is.

With that said, I think it's far more likely that it's choice 1. Why? Lowry almost entirely eliminated the iso cowboy game from his arsenal this season. If it's a "**** you, I'm getting mine" type of a thing, Lowry is still happily chucking away this year.

Casey has also made comments about "letting the big dog eat" and such about Demar iso's as well.




The last time Masai was in a position to trade a star player he did pretty good.

He did get a good package for Carmelo, yeah.




Sign me up for the equivalent of that for Derozan. Yes yes i know its not happening. But the earlier trade i mentioned would be something similar.

I'm okay with a Demar trade, but as long as we're actively targeting legitimate talent that can make up for the loss and not just acquiring assets.

GEEMAN
05-13-2018, 01:43 PM
How will Demar and Lowry take to a new coaching philosophy? Old dogs new tricks. We have a bunch of young guys on the roster that look like they could be solid contributors. Would we be better off trading both Demar and Lowry off for younger players that aren't as established as them but have some good potential.

What about targetting a guy like Gary Harris on the Nuggets. A young 3+D SG that has his new deal coming into effect this summer. A deal something like Harris + Chandler + 14th for Derozan. I don't think we need to go scorched earth rebuild but finding guys that are young and fit the mold of what Masai is trying to build here.

Denver isnt giving you Harris for DD .

It is a rebuild .....2 years away from everyone either opting out or UFA .

Plus you have to decide what kids are staying . We already fooked up with paying Powell

MA hasnt added a quality starter since he got here and goofed again with Ibaka who should never of been resigned .

I would put the odds of DD and Lowry gone this summer at better than 50%

We need to get a couple of picks to find the next Rozier or D. Mitchell and get a cap that is more flexible

HabsFan1
05-13-2018, 04:34 PM
Boston are feeding it too Cleveland!!!

leaffan2005
05-13-2018, 04:34 PM
This is what a good coach can do against LeBron.

Pretty flawless 1st half by the Celtics.

HabsFan1
05-13-2018, 04:44 PM
And shock the Cs are just driving and having their way.

MyNameIsJonas
05-13-2018, 05:44 PM
Brad Stevens is the new Pop.

HabsFan1
05-13-2018, 09:11 PM
Celtics also have a young coach that was coach of their D-league and is an assistant this year. Scott Morrison. A friend of mine was an assistant with him at Lakehead university and has always said to keep an eye on him. Smart all around basketball guy.

CaptainBolduke
05-14-2018, 10:05 AM
Celtics also have a young coach that was coach of their D-league and is an assistant this year. Scott Morrison. A friend of mine was an assistant with him at Lakehead university and has always said to keep an eye on him. Smart all around basketball guy.

Agreed.

GEEMAN
05-14-2018, 07:05 PM
Brad Stevens is the new Pop.

He is a freakin genius

Killer93
05-14-2018, 07:10 PM
Raps will land LeBron and Kawhi

MindzEye
05-14-2018, 07:27 PM
Your boy in the media speaking, or the meth?

CTheBigPicture
05-14-2018, 08:42 PM
:smilielol5:

Why not both?

HabsFan1
05-14-2018, 09:01 PM
**** Lebron. Just get Kawhi and we would be set!

CTheBigPicture
05-14-2018, 09:19 PM
PJ Tucker looking pretty good against the Warriors so far.

MyNameIsJonas
05-14-2018, 09:36 PM
Raps will land LeBron and Kawhi

Did read Philly wants to get both.

zeke
05-15-2018, 01:21 PM
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/5/14/17351226/boston-celtics-defense-lebron-james-game-1


How the Celtics Contained LeBron in Game 1

....The Celtics switched screens all game, even when it meant 6-foot-2, 190-pound point guard Terry Rozier would get stuck battling LeBron or Kevin Love. But Boston didn’t leave Scary Terry hanging; it aborted the obvious mismatch by switching assignments during the entry pass to the post.

https://giphy.com/gifs/cJp4NuNCAWDZdJ3rnE?utm_source=iframe&utm_medium=embed&utm_campaign=Embeds&utm_term=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theringer.com%2Fnba%2F2 018%2F5%2F14%2F17351226%2Fboston-celtics-defense-lebron-james-game-1
https://giphy.com/gifs/cJp4NuNCAWDZdJ3rnE?utm_source=iframe&utm_medium=embed&utm_campaign=Embeds&utm_term=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theringer.com%2Fnba%2F2 018%2F5%2F14%2F17351226%2Fboston-celtics-defense-lebron-james-game-1

Watch for the switcheroo as the ball is in midair—Jayson Tatum swaps places with Rozier. Love might toss around Rozier before the ball is delivered, but it’s meaningless when the man who ends up defending him is much taller, longer, and stronger.

https://giphy.com/gifs/EBwEn1pXD51QT5Pgyc?utm_source=iframe&utm_medium=embed&utm_campaign=Embeds&utm_term=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theringer.com%2F
https://giphy.com/gifs/EBwEn1pXD51QT5Pgyc?utm_source=iframe&utm_medium=embed&utm_campaign=Embeds&utm_term=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theringer.com%2F

The Celtics did this time and time again, whether it was Tatum, Jaylen Brown, or Marcus Morris taking over before the ball could be delivered. Switching is pervasive in the NBA because teams are using more versatile lineups, but it can sometimes lure the offense away from what it does best in favor of a perceived mismatch. It seems Stevens was betting on the Cavs taking the bait, and they did. The defensive tactic stagnated Cleveland’s offense into seeking mismatches that were only an illusion.......

MyNameIsJonas
05-15-2018, 01:22 PM
Budenholzer and Messina the finalists in Milwaukee.

CaptainBolduke
05-15-2018, 01:36 PM
Basketball is so predictable. Did anyone not have Bos/Cleve/Houston/GS as the final 4 at the start of the season?

MindzEye
05-15-2018, 02:26 PM
Basketball is so predictable. Did anyone not have Bos/Cleve/Houston/GS as the final 4 at the start of the season?

Half of the universe had the Clippers or SAS in the WCF against the Warriors. Houston was the Raptors of the west until this season and nobody trusted them to win in the playoffs.

MindzEye
05-15-2018, 03:37 PM
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/5/14/17351226/boston-celtics-defense-lebron-james-game-1

Now watch gifs of how our defence handled the Cavs and ask yourself how Casey wasn't fired years ago.

That is a novel adjustment on how to handle the Cavs offence that doesn't include yelling at your guy in the mismatch to work harder. It's amazing that Casey is hailed as a defensive genius.

zeke
05-15-2018, 03:41 PM
it's all so embarassing.

look at those gifs and how easy they make it look - and it has nothing to do with skill or even athleticism - just a smart gameplan.

CaptainBolduke
05-15-2018, 03:47 PM
Half of the universe had the Clippers or SAS in the WCF against the Warriors. Houston was the Raptors of the west until this season and nobody trusted them to win in the playoffs.

Idiots.

MyNameIsJonas
05-15-2018, 03:48 PM
It's something like this that really makes me pause when i hear Mike Budenholzer is the front runner for the job, an offensive mind, who is also 0-8 in his last 8 playoff games vs Lebron.

CaptainBolduke
05-15-2018, 03:51 PM
Who cares. Raps won't beat LeBron anyway regardless of the coach. Need him to retire or go to the West.

drewser
05-15-2018, 04:05 PM
Marc Stein


Word is that the Raptors quietly explored their DeMar DeRozan trade options last summer before they had any inkling that a breakout season was looming and I'd fully expect Toronto to explore those possibilities again. Not just with DeRozan but with anyone and everyone on the roster.

The Raptors, under the stewardship of the team president Masai Ujiri, typically move in a measured fashion. You have to think this summer will be different.


https://static.nytimes.com/email-content/MSB_2067.html?nlid=60991454

MindzEye
05-15-2018, 04:08 PM
it's all so embarassing.

look at those gifs and how easy they make it look - and it has nothing to do with skill or even athleticism - just a smart gameplan.

It's why I have such a hard time shitting on Demar and Lowry. Yeah, they look their worst in the playoffs every year, but it's at least partially due to the gross lack of adjustment by Casey. Just looking at those Celtics gifs, tell me that Stevens wouldn't have figured out a way to insulate Val in the P/R, or how to run an inbound play without a ****ing turnover or timeout. Stevens completely short circuited the set that Casey had no answer for, with one easy adjustment, and it was ready for game 1. Watching Stevens scheme to stop the Cavs underlines just how bad Casey was at it.

MindzEye
05-15-2018, 04:11 PM
Who cares. Raps won't beat LeBron anyway regardless of the coach. Need him to retire or go to the West.

No.

This just doesn't hold up to Indy pushing the Cavs to 7 games, and Boston making Cleveland look very, very regular in game 1.

The reason Lebron shreds us is coaching, full stop. Lesser teams with less talent perform far better against him than we do.

Wayward DP
05-15-2018, 04:12 PM
It's why I have such a hard time shitting on Demar and Lowry. Yeah, they look their worst in the playoffs every year, but it's at least partially due to the gross lack of adjustment by Casey. Just looking at those Celtics gifs, tell me that Stevens wouldn't have figured out a way to insulate Val in the P/R, or how to run an inbound play without a ****ing turnover or timeout. Stevens completely short circuited the set that Casey had no answer for, with one easy adjustment, and it was ready for game 1. Watching Stevens scheme to stop the Cavs underlines just how bad Casey was at it.

Casey was good at a lot of things, and a positive influence in many ways, but he routinely got outmatched or outsmarted or outwitted by other coaches in playoff series. And that is unacceptable. If it were a one off thing maybe you cut him some slack, but this was a recurring theme.

zeke
05-15-2018, 04:12 PM
though now I just read something that said the raps actually gave many fewer "open" and "wide open" shots against the cavs than the celts did in game 1.

CaptainBolduke
05-15-2018, 04:16 PM
No.

This just doesn't hold up to Indy pushing the Cavs to 7 games, and Boston making Cleveland look very, very regular in game 1.

The reason Lebron shreds us is coaching, full stop. Lesser teams with less talent perform far better against him than we do.

LeBron beats everyone in the East. Until he loses a series come talk to me. Will it happen this year? Maybe.... but it hasn't happened over the last 3 years.

Two weeks ago you thought the Raps would beat the Cavs, but LeBron laughed at you and handed them their ass.

HabsFan1
05-15-2018, 04:38 PM
Try and hire an excellent defensive assistant coach and hand the helm over to Nurse.

MindzEye
05-15-2018, 04:47 PM
LeBron beats everyone in the East. Until he loses a series come talk to me. Will it happen this year? Maybe.... but it hasn't happened over the last 3 years.

Lebron had legitimate secondary talent supporting him the last few years. This year is clearly different.


Two weeks ago you thought the Raps would beat the Cavs, but LeBron laughed at you and handed them their ass.

Two weeks ago I said that I was concerned about the exact thing that ended up costing the Raptors the series, costing them the series. I said that if the Raptors stay home and don't allow the secondary shooters open looks, the Raptors take the series. We decided to sloppily help on Lebron and leave Kyle Korver open in the corner all series instead.

So let's not pretend that I predicted a Raptors win with no conditions or provisos.

MyNameIsJonas
05-15-2018, 04:49 PM
Try and hire an excellent defensive assistant coach and hand the helm over to Nurse.

If Budenholzer chooses the Bucks ( and frankly i wouldn't blame him, coaching Giannis might be more appealing than coaching these Raps for 2 years with a ton of mystery afterwards) then i expect them to go internal.

GEEMAN
05-15-2018, 05:03 PM
It's why I have such a hard time shitting on Demar and Lowry. Yeah, they look their worst in the playoffs every year, but it's at least partially due to the gross lack of adjustment by Casey. Just looking at those Celtics gifs, tell me that Stevens wouldn't have figured out a way to insulate Val in the P/R, or how to run an inbound play without a ****ing turnover or timeout. Stevens completely short circuited the set that Casey had no answer for, with one easy adjustment, and it was ready for game 1. Watching Stevens scheme to stop the Cavs underlines just how bad Casey was at it.

Some players get you to the playoffs ... DD and KL dont get you through the playoffs

MindzEye
05-15-2018, 05:06 PM
Some players get you to the playoffs ... DD and KL dont get you through the playoffs

As the #1 & #2 options, I tend to agree. Though with competent coaching, they should be handling teams they're better than pretty easily, and giving the elite talent at least a decent test.

MyNameIsJonas
05-15-2018, 06:56 PM
One thing with Budenholzer and his system, is that it requires an elite passing big, and he might have had the best in prime Al Horford.

I like Valanciunas alot but he's not current Al Horford, let alone prime one.

MindzEye
05-15-2018, 07:20 PM
Here's a quick note on the dangers of tanking.

Dennis Schroeder has apparently asked Atlanta for a trade. Doesn't want to play for a tanking team

1st round pick 4 years ago, 17th overall. Has turned into a legitimate starting PG, not a star but still a legitimate starter that you can start building a playoff contender with. So yeah, that's the problem with tanking. You develop good players who get sick of losing and they move on, and you continue on the tanking treadmill.

MindzEye
05-15-2018, 07:21 PM
One thing with Budenholzer and his system, is that it requires an elite passing big, and he might have had the best in prime Al Horford.

I like Valanciunas alot but he's not current Al Horford, let alone prime one.

The question is whether or not he can adjust his system. Go get Julius Randle from LAL and run it through him and you don't have a problem. Randle moves the ball beautifully for a true PF.

GEEMAN
05-15-2018, 07:24 PM
As the #1 & #2 options, I tend to agree. Though with competent coaching, they should be handling teams they're better than pretty easily, and giving the elite talent at least a decent test.

This year there was no excuse to not at least sniff the finals . The BB gods lined up for us . Boston 2 best players gone , Philly too raw , Cavs a D league team minus the King .

I was never a Casey fan . His rotations , in game adjustments leave alot to be desired .

However its the same f***en movie ending every year .....our 2 best players cant get the job done .

I dont mind losing but getting clobbered without a dog fight and the same dumb plays or missed shots by those 2 cant be all on the coach .

They are what they are , complimentary star type players who cant win when it matters .

Thats why with 2 years to go to a near gutted roster I cant see both coming back next year .

Put it this way , I saw more in game 3 from OG in terms of defensive shut down ability , clutch 3`s , and BB court awareness than I ever saw in playoff DD .

That game alone gives me the hope of a perimeter shutdown stud with an improving offensive .

MyNameIsJonas
05-15-2018, 07:40 PM
The question is whether or not he can adjust his system. Go get Julius Randle from LAL and run it through him and you don't have a problem. Randle moves the ball beautifully for a true PF.

Sure, if you can get him for Lowry or Val, but if it costs you DDR then that's

a) probably not enough
b) creates a new hole

GEEMAN
05-15-2018, 08:41 PM
Here's a quick note on the dangers of tanking.

Dennis Schroeder has apparently asked Atlanta for a trade. Doesn't want to play for a tanking team

1st round pick 4 years ago, 17th overall. Has turned into a legitimate starting PG, not a star but still a legitimate starter that you can start building a playoff contender with. So yeah, that's the problem with tanking. You develop good players who get sick of losing and they move on, and you continue on the tanking treadmill.

The Raps right now are Memphis of 2 years ago . Consistent with a few star type players .

Nice regular season , then a 1-2 round exit . They didnt re-tool but signed Conley to that retarded contract and not capitalized on Gasol .

Now they are fooked with that Parsons deal with aging vets and are lottery bound .

I cant stress enough the optics are terrible for this team standing still and doing nothing this summer .

DD and JV opt out in 2 years . KL and Ibaka are gone in 2 years .

A bunch of kids minus OG who are ok but how much do you pay or keep these role players ?

Thats a death sentence with no picks this year and dont have the kids like Philly or Boston have on ELC`s or worth paying on second contracts .

MindzEye
05-15-2018, 11:57 PM
Boston makes the Cavs look mediocre again.

The only time in these playoffs that the Cavs have looked good, has been against the Raptors.

MyNameIsJonas
05-16-2018, 12:30 AM
Boston makes the Cavs look mediocre again.

The only time in these playoffs that the Cavs have looked good, has been against the Raptors.

and i think like, one game vs Indy

Killer93
05-16-2018, 12:18 PM
Raptors were really a huge joke once again in the post-season. Really hoping for some roster changes but I doubt it

MyNameIsJonas
05-16-2018, 07:37 PM
Budenholzer to coach Bucks.

Leafin'
05-26-2018, 02:17 PM
not surprised Budenholzer went to the Bucks. Better star player in Greek Freak. Something tells me Budenholzer will also have more influence on roster construction there than he would here.

Raptors interviewed Ime Udoka and Ettore Messina the other day. What are your thoughts on those guys? Messina has the resume you might look for but i'm not sure if a "hard ass" european coach is what this roster needs. Or at least his reputation in years past was that of a hard ass coach that will not cave to star players if they aren't up to the task. Assistant under Pop the last 4 seasons along with probably the best european resume you could find.

Udoka on the other hand has been an assistant under Pop for 6 seasons. Regarded as a highly intelligent coach. From reports i've read he's a players coach that plays the good cop to Pop's bad cop at times. Nigerian descent though i'm not sure if that will/or should have any barring on who the coach is here. The African connect might be real with Masai regarding familiarity.

MindzEye
05-26-2018, 02:36 PM
I'm fine with either. Messina is the godfather of modern NBA basketball, he was playing space and pace systems in Europe 20-30 years before it caught on over here. I know less about Udoka but 6 years under Pop is all the resume I need to see.

HabsFan1
05-26-2018, 04:05 PM
Ive read that Messina is a hot head and that Pop was the only thing that kept him cool at times in SA. Not sure how true that is and if the hot head style coach would work with this group.

zeke
05-26-2018, 04:08 PM
always go with the italian

MindzEye
05-26-2018, 04:19 PM
always go with the italian

Career VORP/WS

Bargnani: -.9/18.9
Aldridge: 25.8/97.9

Go **** yourself Zeke.

zeke
05-26-2018, 04:27 PM
https://i.imgur.com/eSGnCJw.png

MindzEye
05-26-2018, 04:28 PM
I tried to tell you he was a scrub before we drafted him, then spent years explaining why he was a scrub in the NBA.

He made you look incredibly silly man.

zeke
05-26-2018, 04:33 PM
http://hoopeduponline.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/bargnani-primo.jpg

MindzEye
05-26-2018, 04:45 PM
You're shit

zeke
05-26-2018, 04:47 PM
https://www.sportsgrid.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/ayoub-bargnani.jpg

HabsFan1
05-26-2018, 09:43 PM
I was always mad that we took the pasta special

MindzEye
05-26-2018, 10:23 PM
I was always mad that we took the pasta special

I severely hated the arguments that were being made to support the Bargnani pick

- "we don't need a centre, we have Bosh and Aldridge is a centre"....No. Bosh was miscast as a full time centre (and got slotted in at PF as soon as he took his talents to South Beach) in Toronto and was kept their mainly because Bargnani was ****ing useless defensively and on the glass. To make matters worse, Aldridge transitioned seemlessly to PF in his sophomore season. So even if Bosh was a C, Aldridge easily could have been our PF. The two could easily have rotated between the two positions based on matchup. Both were above average defenders.

- "Bargnani aced Colangelo's confidence test". So you're telling me that a 7 foot kid who has never played against anyone in his age group that was remotely his physical match in Italy thinks highly of himself, and that Aldridge, who had been playing against the elite of the elite within his age group on the showcase circuit might have had a more realistic idea of his abilities against top competition? Weird

- "DIRK!!!!". Nowitzki was the runaway best player in Germany at 18, was beating up on NBA players in showcase games, and shit all over the Nike Hoop Summit which is where the elite north american prospects go to get noticed. Bargnani avoided the showcase circuit like the plague (which turned out to be pretty smart for him in the end). He was a poor man's Dirk at 18, and that's the kindest way to describe his career. A very poor man's Dirk.

It was a shit draft, but there's no excuse to not get a good players out of the #1 slot. Aldridge was the easy pick. To make matters worse, Bosh and Aldridge were friends and had been working out together the summer leading up to the draft.

MapleLeafBlueJayBoy
05-27-2018, 02:22 AM
I severely hated the arguments that were being made to support the Bargnani pick

- "we don't need a centre, we have Bosh and Aldridge is a centre"....No. Bosh was miscast as a full time centre (and got slotted in at PF as soon as he took his talents to South Beach) in Toronto and was kept their mainly because Bargnani was ****ing useless defensively and on the glass. To make matters worse, Aldridge transitioned seemlessly to PF in his sophomore season. So even if Bosh was a C, Aldridge easily could have been our PF. The two could easily have rotated between the two positions based on matchup. Both were above average defenders.

- "Bargnani aced Colangelo's confidence test". So you're telling me that a 7 foot kid who has never played against anyone in his age group that was remotely his physical match in Italy thinks highly of himself, and that Aldridge, who had been playing against the elite of the elite within his age group on the showcase circuit might have had a more realistic idea of his abilities against top competition? Weird

- "DIRK!!!!". Nowitzki was the runaway best player in Germany at 18, was beating up on NBA players in showcase games, and shit all over the Nike Hoop Summit which is where the elite north american prospects go to get noticed. Bargnani avoided the showcase circuit like the plague (which turned out to be pretty smart for him in the end). He was a poor man's Dirk at 18, and that's the kindest way to describe his career. A very poor man's Dirk.

It was a shit draft, but there's no excuse to not get a good players out of the #1 slot. Aldridge was the easy pick. To make matters worse, Bosh and Aldridge were friends and had been working out together the summer leading up to the draft.

I try very hard to forget Bryan Collangelo’s time here.

Leafin'
05-27-2018, 02:50 PM
That was f*cking brutal. Thinking about all the pain and suffering my friends and I endured arguing about Bargnani makes me laugh. Everyone hated the pick but held out hope that a light would go on for Bargs. Even today i hold out blind optimism at times in hope that management gets it right and us fans get rewarded. Look no further than Mindz and I going back and forth about the Jays last winter. LOL.

Funny enough this upcoming offseason might be the first time we get away from the BC core. Casey gone. Who is next? Hopefully Masai grows some balls and takes some risks. If trading DD for a younger piece is in the best interest long term but stings a lot next season i think you should do it. Same for Lowry. This draft has some interesting pieces in the top 6-8. Identify the guy and get him.

zeke
05-27-2018, 04:29 PM
well, there's no denying bargnani's talent. and hilariously he's actually the prototype for the new NBA big man.

just turns out he was a lazy insecure weirdo.

MindzEye
05-27-2018, 05:19 PM
well, there's no denying bargnani's talent. and hilariously he's actually the prototype for the new NBA big man.

Well except for being shit defensively, terrible on the glass, and of questionable athleticsm (and questionable is being kind)

I'll agree that his shooting and ability to put the ball on the deck were a decade ahead of their time, but I refuse to use the word "prototype" here. He was a stretch centre who can't play centre. He would have gotten eaten alive at PF now. He's not taking a modern PF off of the dribble. He's Marc Gasol, if Marc Gasol didn't play defence, rebound, or play within 10 feet of the basket.


just turns out he was a lazy insecure weirdo.

But the confidence test!!!

MyNameIsJonas
05-27-2018, 07:12 PM
i would have preferred 2 years of awesome Brandon Roy before his knees got Thanos'd

MindzEye
05-27-2018, 10:53 PM
Celtics doing their best to Raptors this late 4th quarter by refusing to hit open 3's

MindzEye
05-27-2018, 10:55 PM
**** the Eastern Conference. Seriously.

This Cavs team is complete horseshit. At least the Celtics have an excuse missing Kyrie, but still.

MyNameIsJonas
05-27-2018, 11:05 PM
Terry Rozier was new world level bad, 0/10 from 3 with most being rushed and or terrible attempts.

Makes me sick though that Lebron gets every call but Jayson Tatum gets physically abused and not a sniff.

zeke
05-27-2018, 11:10 PM
GOAT

MindzEye
05-27-2018, 11:18 PM
GOAT

When are you going to come out and admit that you don't even like basketball?

zeke
05-27-2018, 11:29 PM
G
O
A
T

MindzEye
05-27-2018, 11:45 PM
Le3-6

As a quick refresher, the best player on the team he's beaten to win the East each year.
2018 - Al Horford
2017 - Isaiah Thomas
2016 - Demar Derozan
2015 - Al Horford
2014 - Paul George
2013 - Paul George
2012 - The 36 yr old version of Kevin Garnett
2011 - Derrick Rose
2007 - Chauncey Billups


Not exactly a list of superstars other than Garnett on the end of his knees. Lebron is great, but when he runs into other great players in the playoffs, he loses a lot. When he's just facing the very good, he wins. The real Goat beat everyone.

zeke
05-28-2018, 12:06 AM
Durant/Westbrook/Harden
Duncan/Leonard/Parker
Curry/Green/Klay

zeke
05-28-2018, 12:17 AM
and come on - you have told us over and over again just how shite his team is this year. time to give him some props.

axlsalinger
05-28-2018, 12:38 AM
That team isn't very good. Which illustrates just how frickin' great LeBron is.

MindzEye
05-28-2018, 01:28 AM
and come on - you have told us over and over again just how shite his team is this year. time to give him some props.

He's a great player, top 5 all time.

Slow your roll with this goat shit though.

MindzEye
05-28-2018, 01:29 AM
Durant/Westbrook/Harden
Duncan/Leonard/Parker
Curry/Green/Klay

Now do the times he got beat...

Great. Not the greatest.

zeke
05-28-2018, 07:34 AM
now look at the teams Jordan beat in the finals.

CaptainBolduke
05-28-2018, 08:43 AM
LeBron made the Finals. Shocker.

LeBron is unreal. The LeBron/MJ debate isn't as one-sided as Jordan fans like to think it is.

CH1
05-28-2018, 08:54 AM
@selling_theta

LeBron dragging Hill, Thompson, Green, and Smith to the finals is just as impressive as Jordan dragging a lead footed Ilgauskas, Drew Gooden, Larry Hughes and Eric snow to the finals in 2006.

No wait, that was also LeBron

zeke
05-28-2018, 08:59 AM
heh

zeke
05-28-2018, 09:01 AM
Did Jordan ever have to face a super team in the finals? was pippen the 2nd/3re best player in all those series?

CaptainBolduke
05-28-2018, 09:39 AM
I think ME is just in shock re: LeBron.

He took a pretty hard stance on how bad Cleveland was this year. Yet, LeBron still has them in the NBA Finals

zeke
05-28-2018, 10:17 AM
this is what he has done in his last 9 games facing elimination:

46 PTS, 11 REB, 9 AST
45 PTS, 8 REB, 7 AST
41 PTS, 13 REB, 8 AST
31 PTS, 10 REB, 11 AST
27 PTS, 11 REB, 11 AST
41 PTS, 8 REB, 11 AST
41 PTS, 16 REB, 7 AST
31 PTS, 18 REB, 9 AST
35 PTS. 15 REB, 9 AST

GEEMAN
05-28-2018, 10:30 AM
this is what he has done in his last 9 games facing elimination:

46 PTS, 11 REB, 9 AST
45 PTS, 8 REB, 7 AST
41 PTS, 13 REB, 8 AST
31 PTS, 10 REB, 11 AST
27 PTS, 11 REB, 11 AST
41 PTS, 8 REB, 11 AST
41 PTS, 16 REB, 7 AST
31 PTS, 18 REB, 9 AST
35 PTS. 15 REB, 9 AST

Isane ...not human

Leafin'
05-28-2018, 10:36 AM
Lebron deserves his props right now.

but lets not do LJ vs MJ. Different players, different eras, just different.

Lebron put on a show last night. That was legendary shit. 48 mins...jeez.

CH1
05-28-2018, 01:43 PM
LeBron vs MJ is the debate twitter has been waiting for. Good distraction from grifter in chief.

LeBron: Guarded by physical freaks
MJ:G uarded by white dudes who drive mini-vans to their daughters soccer games.

https://twitter.com/Sp0rtsTalkJo3/status/979131668178096128

CaptainBolduke
05-28-2018, 01:52 PM
Love MJ.

But this debate is not as one-sided as MJ fans think it is.

MindzEye
05-28-2018, 02:18 PM
LeBron vs MJ is the debate twitter has been waiting for. Good distraction from grifter in chief.

LeBron: Guarded by physical freaks
MJ:G uarded by white dudes who drive mini-vans to their daughters soccer games.

https://twitter.com/Sp0rtsTalkJo3/status/979131668178096128

2 major things have changed between MJ and Lebron

1) Hand check
2) NBA has made other significant rule changes to aid offence

A few of my favourites:

-Before 1993 you wouldn't be automatically be thrown out of the game for throwing a punch, there was also minimal punishment involved in leaving the bench
-If you fouled a 3 point shooter, they were awarded 2 foul shots instead of the 3 given now
-You could commit multiple flagrant fouls and not be ejected
-in 97 they took away the ability to impeded the ball carrier with your forearm (the evolution of the hand check)
-multiple tweaks to illegal defence that made it harder for off ball defenders to be in the lane
-Late 4th quarter timeouts advance the ball to mid court
-Traveling basically doesn't exist anymore
-Significant changes made the the amount of physicality allowed on an offensive player coming to retrieve the ball off of a screen.

Anyone claiming that it was easier to get to the rim in 1998 than it is now probably didn't watch basketball in 1998.

I like the game more now, way more ball movement, way more open space. It's just a better game now, but it was way more physical back then.

CaptainBolduke
05-28-2018, 02:36 PM
Meh

MindzEye
05-28-2018, 02:39 PM
Love MJ.

But this debate is not as one-sided as MJ fans think it is.

Depends on what you mean by "as one sided as MJ fans think".

Is a complete wash out? No. But statistically MJ was the better player (MJ's Win Shares/48 already includes MJ's decline years...and is missing multiple years of his prime, and is better than Lebron's career WS/48 for example) and the "intangibles" argument isn't close. 6-0 is just crazy in NBA finals.

Scottie brought up a good point when he was asked about this. He mentioned that though they play different roles, MJ was asked to play point guard for a short period of time. Over those 11 games, MJ averaged 33.6 with 11.4 assists, and 10.6 boards. He also spent the majority of his career in the triangle offence, which is designed to spread the playmaking around and he still averaged 6+ assists most seasons.

In comparison to their peers, Michael Jordan was the best player in basketball in every year of his prime (22-32). In no single season during that run (aside from his 2 year hiatus of course) there was no one who was better than him in any single season. As incredible as Lebron is, he's been eclipsed in single seasons by other great players (for example, Steph Curry has been legitimately better than Lebron in at least one recent season). That just never happened to Jordan, despite playing in an era loaded with the greatest collection of big men of all time.

Lebron is ridiculously good, that it's even a legitimate discussion is a testament to Lebron's greatness because Jordan was insanely good. A 6'6 guard completely dominated an era of basketball that was structurally set up (both from a rules stand point, and what was the prevailing coaching/strategic logic of the era) to reward big, physical players. Lebron has been the best player in an era that has been tailored to feature players like him, and it's gone even more towards his strengths the last few years with the entire NBA going towards space and pace and away from size and strength, often leaving him one of the biggest, strongest players on the court at any given time. It's an "easier" game to play for skilled players now, and I'm not the least bit mad about that. I wish we could have seen MJ in an era with no hand checks, and no 280 pound goons under the rim.

MindzEye
05-28-2018, 03:23 PM
Did Jordan ever have to face a super team in the finals? was pippen the 2nd/3re best player in all those series?

Depends on which measure you want.

The Utah Jazz teams that Mike beat would absolutely classify as a super team by modern era standards. It's not quite as good as this Golden State team is, but it was really, really ****ing good. Good enough to beat another super team level Houston team.

To answer the 2nd question the best stat I have available is game score

91: Mike 29.4, Magic 20.0, Scottie 17.5, Vlade 16.1
92: Mike 25.8, Clyde 18.4, Scottie 18.0, Porter 12.5
93: Mike 29.6, Barkley 23.4, Thunder Dan 17.0, Scottie 15.6
96: Kemp 18.9, Mike 18.6, Payton 14.4, Scotty 13.4
97: Mike 23.4, Malone 16.8, Scotty 15.1, Stockton 14.9
98: Mike 21.4, Malone 18.5, Scotty 13.0, Stockton 10.0

So to give a quick comparison of Mike vs opponents best and Scottie vs opponents 2nd best

Mike Vs: 24.7 to 19.3
Scottie Vs: 15.4 to 14.2

Now let's do Lebron's finals history, same format

07: Parker 16.2, Duncan 15.3, (Manu 11.6), Lebron 10.6, Gooden 9.0
11: Wade 22.0, Dirk 16.6, Lebron 13.7, Terry 13.4
12: Lebron 23.4, Durant 20.4, Westbrook 18.9, Wade 16.4
13: Lebron 22.5, Duncan 15.9, Wade 14.9, Kahwi 14.2 (Bosh 12.4)
14: Lebron 22.5, Kahwi 15.8, Duncan 12.9, Bosh 10.6
15: Lebron 24.6, Kyrie 21.1, Steph 17.9, Iggy 13.6
16: Lebron 26.5, Kyrie 19.1, Dray 17.2, Steph 13.1
17: KD 30.3, Lebron 29.6, Steph 24.1, Kyrie 18.2 (Love 14.7)

So even if we do the right thing and omit that first appearance in the finals (I don't hold Lebron remotely responsible for not winning or even not putting up a great showing as a 22 yr old, it's incredible just to drag that shitty team to the finals), we still have a pretty decent body of work to look at.

2011 was an embarassment for Lebron, and is a heavy black mark on his legacy imo if we're judging him against Mike. Mike has nothing remotely similar in his prime to compare that too. He did do a fantastic job rehabilitating his legacy on the strength of excellent performances in the finals since. As it pertains to "but scottie!!" though, Lebron has received supporting performances from Wade and Kyrie at or well above the supporting average that MJ received from Scottie.

Like I continue to maintain. Incredible, era defining performances from Lebron. But not as good as Mike.

CaptainBolduke
05-28-2018, 03:27 PM
We know how you feel, but regardless --- what Lebron has done this postseason has just been incredible.

MindzEye
05-28-2018, 03:28 PM
I never said that it wasn't.

He's faced soft competition, but his supporting cast is shit and he's still getting it done.

CaptainBolduke
05-28-2018, 03:30 PM
Whatever.

3 weeks ago you thought the Raptors were a lock for the ECF. Yet, LeBron embarrassed them (and you).

When the Cavs were down 2-0 vs Boston, you went on and on and on about how "this is how you coach against LeBron and win" - yet he came back and beat Boston and the coach by himself.

The guy is unreal. Accept it.

You lost all credibility when you doubled-down and said that LeBron is "Top 5."

worm
05-28-2018, 03:33 PM
bah kobe has an oscar

MindzEye
05-28-2018, 03:34 PM
bah kobe has an oscar

and some incredible commercials

Kobe System >>

axlsalinger
05-28-2018, 03:40 PM
Plus his own brand of beef.

Volcanologist
05-28-2018, 03:47 PM
Plus his own brand of beef.

"Kobe's Beef...you say you don't want it, but yeah, yeah you do"

MindzEye
05-28-2018, 04:04 PM
Plus his own brand of beef.

even the Japanese love him and they don't like basketball.

CH1
05-28-2018, 06:12 PM
Kobe knows his languages.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwkMf6R3qSA

MindzEye
05-28-2018, 08:25 PM
I'd be shocked if his Italian was that good and he didn't speak Spanish as well.

TheCountofMonteCristo
05-28-2018, 08:33 PM
bah kobe has an oscar

that he does

It is impossible to compare eras.

Jordan had a better cast most of his career, is from UNC so I have to love him ;) However, Lebron is almost if not for sure his equal. Michael never won series all by himself, Lebron has basically taken the Cavaliers to the Final this year by himself.

TheCountofMonteCristo
05-28-2018, 08:34 PM
Kobe knows his languages.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwkMf6R3qSA

he lived in Italy while his dad played bball in the Italian league

CH1
05-28-2018, 08:51 PM
I'd be shocked if his Italian was that good and he didn't speak Spanish as well.

He's apparently fluent. His Spanish sounded good to me but I don't speak it.

MindzEye
05-28-2018, 09:48 PM
Jordan had a better cast most of his career[quote]

Jordan never had a supporting cast like the Heat did. It's almost like people forget that D Wade was one of the top 5 shooting guards of all time and by most measures was a better player than Pippen. Kyrie doesn't defend like Scottie but is better offensive than Scottie and no Jordan team has ever had a 3rd option as good as Bosh/Love. No, Kukoc wasn't better than either.

Lebron has had an excellent supporting cast for 7 of the last 8 seasons.

[quote]Michael never won series all by himself, Lebron has basically taken the Cavaliers to the Final this year by himself.

A series?

In 88 he went 45/5/5/3/1.5 to beat the Cavs, nobody else on the Bulls (Pippen included) averaged more than 11. The following season he dad dicked the Cavs again with 40/6/8/3 then followed that up against the Knicks with a 36/10/8/2.5/1.5 line, with no one else putting up more than 15 a night in either series.

So yeah, this isn't uncharted territory for Jordan. The difference here is that Jordan had to go through the bad boy Pistons to get to the finals early career. He didn't have the pussy Raptors or a 52 win team without their star to go through. Lebron isn't beating the bad boy Pistons without a legitimate supporting cast either.

MindzEye
05-28-2018, 10:37 PM
Houston doing their best to be the Raptors of the West

HabsFan1
05-28-2018, 11:43 PM
Well shock its golden state and Cleveland. NBA is pretty predictable

MindzEye
05-29-2018, 12:46 AM
We’ll shock its golden state and Cleveland. NBA is pretty predictable

Houston choked, Toronto choked, Boston choked.

Golden State now shit stomps the Cavs in 4 or 5.

MindzEye
05-29-2018, 12:50 AM
Eric Sidewater
‏ @SixersScience

The likelihood of the Rockets, a 36.2% three-point shooting team, missing 26 threes in a row is .00084% or a 1 in 118757 chance.

That's a pretty hard choke.

Raptors of the West indeed.

zeke
05-29-2018, 01:17 AM
That's a pretty hard choke.

Raptors of the West indeed.

nah it wasn't a choke:

https://twitter.com/KenTremendous/status/1001314615282712576

MindzEye
05-29-2018, 01:46 AM
nah it wasn't a choke:

https://twitter.com/KenTremendous/status/1001314615282712576

****, I didn't realize that they completely deserved it.

CaptainBolduke
05-29-2018, 10:57 AM
Who in their right mind would have predicted a Cavs vs. Warriors Final?

The NBA is the easiest and most predictable betting league in NA.

MyNameIsJonas
05-29-2018, 11:20 AM
Who in their right mind would have predicted a Cavs vs. Warriors Final?

The NBA is the easiest and most predictable betting league in NA.

Except if you bet 100$ on this final prior to the season you might win like 130$...with point spreads the NBA is as difficult as anything else

CaptainBolduke
05-29-2018, 11:23 AM
Yeah -- Straight up wouldn't make much, but it's any easy win nonetheness.

zeke
05-29-2018, 09:53 PM
holy crap, Bryan Colangelo.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/5/29/17406750/bryan-colangelo-philadelphia-76ers-twitter-joel-embiid-anonymous-markelle-fultz

CH1
05-29-2018, 10:06 PM
holy crap, Bryan Colangelo.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/5/29/17406750/bryan-colangelo-philadelphia-76ers-twitter-joel-embiid-anonymous-markelle-fultz

wow

zeke
05-29-2018, 11:03 PM
lmao

Joel Embiid
@JoelEmbiid
Joel told me that @samhinkie IS BETTER AND SMARTER THAN YOU @AlVic40117560 #BurnerAccount

11:00pm 29 May 2018 Twitter for iPhone
Philadelphia, PA, United States

zeke
05-29-2018, 11:03 PM
Career over

zeke
05-29-2018, 11:17 PM
lolooooo


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DeafhHbU0AAr1I2.jpg:large

MindzEye
05-29-2018, 11:34 PM
holy crap, Bryan Colangelo.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/5/29/17406750/bryan-colangelo-philadelphia-76ers-twitter-joel-embiid-anonymous-markelle-fultz

That's career ending shit right there. If you're Embiid, how do you not demand a trade if he's not fired?

Philly fans already hate him, this is going to end badly for Colangelo. What a ****ing weirdo.

zeke
05-29-2018, 11:36 PM
Burner Twitter is lit right now.

zeke
05-29-2018, 11:36 PM
Adrian Wojnarowski @wojespn
14m
Sixers All-Star center Joel Embiid tells ESPN on Bryan Colangelo: “I talked to him and he said that he didn’t say that. He called me just to deny the story. Gotta believe him until proven otherwise. If true though, that would be really bad.”

MindzEye
05-29-2018, 11:41 PM
lmao

Joel Embiid
@JoelEmbiid
Joel told me that @samhinkie IS BETTER AND SMARTER THAN YOU @AlVic40117560 #BurnerAccount

11:00pm 29 May 2018 Twitter for iPhone
Philadelphia, PA, United States

There is a dude all over Embiid's twitter with an account named "100% Not Brian Colangelo"

I may have laughed just a bit too hard.

zeke
05-29-2018, 11:42 PM
lol.

Twitter, man.

MindzEye
05-29-2018, 11:48 PM
https://twitter.com/cole_kev/status/1001645701577703424?s=21

Not sayin...just sayin

zeke
05-29-2018, 11:51 PM
oh man c'mon that is too much.

MindzEye
05-30-2018, 12:03 AM
oh man c'mon that is too much.

This is being blamed on the Kardashian Kurse on r/nba

Ben Simmons recently started dating Kendall Jenner, and we've seen how this works...

Lamar Odom almost dying, Kanye losing his ****ing mind, Kris Humphries out of the league shortly after the marriage, Tristan Thompson turned to shit, James Harden called his relationship with Khloe "the worst year of my life", Jordan Clarkson traded out of LA, Blake Griffen traded to Detroit,

Matt Kemp wRC+

Year before Khloe: 145
Year of Khloe: 103
Year after Khloe: 141

This shit is real and verifiable. Now Kendall is in the middle of tearing down "The Process".

MindzEye
05-30-2018, 12:03 AM
You know shit is bad when I completely missed that Kris Jenner cut his dick off.

The curse is real.

zeke
05-30-2018, 12:04 AM
hehheheh

zeke
05-30-2018, 12:06 AM
busted (again).

https://twitter.com/SixersAdam/status/1001672950335135745

zeke
05-30-2018, 12:08 AM
so many lols

https://twitter.com/danielrainge/status/1001675015484575744

MindzEye
05-30-2018, 12:24 AM
https://i.imgur.com/fkBn26A.jpg

MindzEye
05-30-2018, 12:25 AM
This is my favourite sports story of the year

MindzEye
05-30-2018, 12:26 AM
I physically got up and went to go make popcorn as soon as I finished the Ringer article.

I knew the internet was going to be in fine mother****ing form tonight.

MapleLeafBlueJayBoy
05-30-2018, 12:27 AM
holy crap, Bryan Colangelo.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/5/29/17406750/bryan-colangelo-philadelphia-76ers-twitter-joel-embiid-anonymous-markelle-fultz

:eek6:

MindzEye
05-30-2018, 12:29 AM
I seriously cannot wait until Game of Zones does an episode on this.

zeke
05-30-2018, 12:30 AM
"this you, Bryan?" is such classic internet trashtalk and this time was actually true. amazing.

MindzEye
05-30-2018, 12:33 AM
and for anyone who doesn't know what the **** I'm talking about

http://gameofzones.bleacherreport.com/#/season-5-episode-6

you're welcome

CH1
05-30-2018, 12:34 AM
BC, though a class act, was not very good at this burner thing.

MindzEye
05-30-2018, 12:36 AM
"this you, Bryan?" is such classic internet trashtalk and this time was actually true. amazing.

That he answered it like a self important twat is the best part, had he just "lol"d or something, it would have just been a meme. This sounds like the way Trump would respond if he was defending himself online using Alt accounts and got "caught".

MindzEye
05-30-2018, 12:36 AM
BC, though a class act, was not very good at this burner thing.

Yep. Kevin Durant is off the hook for worst use of an alt account.

MindzEye
05-30-2018, 01:05 AM
One more twist is that League office kind of forced Colangelo on the 6'ers. They were choked about "The Process" and considered it to be an embarrassment to the 6'ers and to the league so they kind of pushed to get Jerry Colangelo in the door, and then Hinkie resigned because he saw the writing on the wall.

****ing oops.

Maybe the league should just stay out of team business? They vetoed that Chris Paul trade which pretty drastically changed the balance of power in the league (there is a direct road between Chris Paul not going to LAL and KD ending up in GSW).

MindzEye
05-30-2018, 02:37 AM
I'm calling my shot after reading way more Twitter posts than I should have about this.

The source is Sam Hinkie. Book it.

MindzEye
05-30-2018, 02:50 AM
Mark Cuban, Danny Ainge, and Daryl Morey (GM of the Rockets) have all cracked jokes about this on Twitter now. Let me repeat that, the GM's of two teams who just suffered disgusting late game collapses to lose a game 7, within the last few days, are clowning on Colangelo right now.

Roseanne, Drake, and Colangelo.

This might be the best day in the history of internet bullshit. (also....I figured I had a 0.0% chance of using those names in a sentence together, for my entire life, before today.)