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PlayerToBeNamedLater
11-21-2010, 10:02 PM
The Raps have had one of the most difficult schedules to start the season. I wouldn't write this season off just yet. Only 1 game out of a playoff spot right now.

In the east, you can make the playoffs with a win total in the high 30's.

MindzEye
11-21-2010, 10:41 PM
Haslem hurt

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/news/story?id=5836434


MIAMI -- Udonis Haslem has played with broken fingers, separated shoulders, illnesses and sprained ankles. So when he needed to be carried to the locker room with his latest injury, the Miami Heat suspected it was bad.

They were right.

An MRI performed Sunday on Miami's leading rebounder confirmed he tore a ligament in his left foot during the fourth quarter of a loss in Memphis on Saturday night. When Haslem went down, he immediately began pointing to the inside of his left foot, and was quickly helped into the locker room.

He will see a specialist on Monday, and surgery -- which could keep him out months instead of weeks -- remains an option. The Heat said they expect to have more information on Monday.

mbow30
11-21-2010, 10:55 PM
losing to both charlotte and washington really stings.. but... there are some overwhelming positives to take out of this team's start.

they've beaten the top two teams in the east, stayed within 5 of the defending champ lakers, and made a game of it against miami despite being on the second night of a very difficult back to back (having faced orlando the night before).

the team isn't great, but they haven't been healthy yet (at the end of the day they were counting on davis to contribute, kleiza has missed games, barbosa has been hurt), and have had a fairly difficult schedule. despite that, they haven't been a particularly easy team to play against.

derozan has taken some steps forward; bargnani is showing that he can produce fairly consistently, weems is starting to look like a legitimate starter, and reggie evans has bounced back in a big way.

there are a ton of positives, really, for the first time since 2006.

Hoss
11-21-2010, 11:42 PM
some people are saying that they think Jose could be the next to go... and that this move wasn't about making it his team but rather just clearing house for a big retool next year.

MindzEye
11-21-2010, 11:44 PM
Would make sense...we all saw what happened to teams that weren't prepared for a new economic environment in the NHL after the lockout. A similar situation is likely coming to the NBA.

JaysCyYoung
11-22-2010, 12:14 AM
How long of a labour stoppage are we looking at theoretically?

axlsalinger
11-22-2010, 03:57 AM
Said this before, there is virtually no chance of a lengthy NFL lockout; conversely, there is virtually no chance that the NBA escapes one.

A lot of the NBA's current crazy hardline stance is posturing, but the bottom line is that they are serious about extracting major concessions from the players. Just like the NHL was. How long the lockout lasts depends on how long it takes for the NBAPA to realize this.

JaysCyYoung
11-22-2010, 01:13 PM
Anything to ensure that the current system where back-up centres like Johan Petro are making $7 million (or whatever silly figure he got a few years ago) is abolished is fine by me. The amount of money that even marginal NBA'ers make in the Association is ridiculous beyond measure.

PlayerToBeNamedLater
11-22-2010, 02:18 PM
The NBA won't come back until they get a NHL-like hard cap.

Stern has talked a lot recently about a possible euro division within the next decade. He's not going down that road without a hard cap.

zeke
11-22-2010, 02:29 PM
some people are saying that they think Jose could be the next to go... and that this move wasn't about making it his team but rather just clearing house for a big retool next year.

considering they already traded him this offseason, it wouldn't exactly be a shock.

axlsalinger
11-22-2010, 03:57 PM
Man, the Miami Heat are so easy to hate. You guys have to check out this ad for the "Fan Up" campaign in Miami, lol. People are showing up late and leaving early. This is not a parody, this is a real ad folks.

What an embarrassment.

YouTube - Fan Up, Miami!

MindzEye
11-22-2010, 03:58 PM
Florida is a horrible, horrible sports market.

JaysCyYoung
11-22-2010, 04:02 PM
People love their Miami Hurricanes and not much else. Look at the Jaguars getting ready to close up shop and leave, the 5,000 at Panthers games, the Marlins having the worst attendance in baseball virtually every season since they came into existence in 1993, etc. Horrible market.

JaysCyYoung
11-22-2010, 04:03 PM
Man, the Miami Heat are so easy to hate. You guys have to check out this ad for the "Fan Up" campaign in Miami, lol. People are showing up late and leaving early. This is not a parody, this is a real ad folks.

What an embarrassment.

YouTube - Fan Up, Miami! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeBgpQBlP-g)

Why is black dude #1 wearing a Cavaliers hat?

axlsalinger
11-22-2010, 04:04 PM
That's a Heat hat.

MindzEye
11-22-2010, 04:04 PM
He's not

JaysCyYoung
11-22-2010, 04:05 PM
My bad folks, the outline and the fact that the hat is the same colour as the ball makes it look like the stylized Cleveland "C."

http://toughsledding.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/cavs.png

Can you see it too?

MindzEye
11-22-2010, 04:06 PM
No...but I was watching it on fullscreen on my 42 inch

JaysCyYoung
11-22-2010, 04:08 PM
Apox on thee and thine doubly superior entertainment system!

axlsalinger
11-22-2010, 04:11 PM
Still one of the best YouTube clips ever:

YouTube - LEBRON JAMES FLIPS OUT ON CLEVELAND FANS!!!!

Fitzgerald#11
11-22-2010, 09:08 PM
best photo bomb ever?

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/2957/bargss.jpg

axlsalinger
11-22-2010, 09:21 PM
Dear fans,

You are so dumb. You are really dumb. Even a 5-year old knows how to attend a sporting event, but apparently, you don't. Fan up, Miami!

Signed,
The Miami Heat

http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/1912/fanupmiami.jpg (http://img811.imageshack.us/i/fanupmiami.jpg/)

mbow30
11-22-2010, 09:58 PM
a thing of beauty is going down in miami right now.

pacers are up 85-72 with 4 minutes to go.

miami's bench is being outscored 40-4

axlsalinger
11-22-2010, 10:02 PM
Thanks for the heads-up. Watching the last few minutes here. Fun to watch!

mbow30
11-22-2010, 10:03 PM
91-75, 2 minutes to go

axlsalinger
11-22-2010, 10:05 PM
D-Wade shooting 1-13 from the field (0-4 from three, 1-5 from the line) for 3 points.

mbow30
11-22-2010, 10:06 PM
spoelstra will get fired, riley will step behind the bench. they'll be a solid team but really, what you're seeing is three guys who can't handle the situation they put themselves in.

they're idiots. they've put the weight of the league on their shoulders, and in the process made everybody hate them. i'd bet that a majority of fellow players don't respect these guys. fans want to see them lose... morons.

axlsalinger
11-22-2010, 10:09 PM
The bad news: they got booed off the court.

The good news: it wasn't very loud, because everybody left early.

MindzEye
11-22-2010, 10:09 PM
Fan****ingtastic

DWade with the worst shooting night of his career, 1 of 13....3 points

Bosh 21 & 11, Bron went for 25 points.

Fitzgerald#11
11-22-2010, 10:10 PM
that Haslem injury will kill them. they have however signed Dampier finally

PlayerToBeNamedLater
11-22-2010, 10:27 PM
The Miami pick Toronto holds is in the 19-20 range currently.

It would be great if that pick ended up in the high teens.

Tank Heat tank.

JaysCyYoung
11-22-2010, 10:28 PM
Watching the Heat self-destruct has been one of the most enjoyable things that I've ever seen in basketball.

PlayerToBeNamedLater
11-23-2010, 02:03 PM
A lockout is a coming...



The NBA and NBPA had another negotiation session last week and little, if no progress was made between the two sides. Monday, NBPA executive director Billy Hunter spoke to the media and said he is "99 percent sure" the owners will lockout the players when the current collective bargaining agreement expires on June 30.

"I think it's highly probable that there will be a lockout and that's what I'm preparing for because I don't see anything else right now," Hunter told the Associated Press.

NBA commissioner David Stern and deputy commissioner Adam Silver have done a lot of talking in the press and Hunter thought it was time he spoke up.

"I think the message has to be driven home to I guess that hawkish group of owners that if they're inclined, if they want to lock us out -- because we're not going to strike -- if they want to lock us out and they want to pull the roof down on themselves, then hey, have at it," Hunter said.

Hunter is telling all the union members to save money. Reportedly the NBPA has $175 million available if some of the players need help next summer.

The owners are looking to slash their losses and the first way for them is to reduce the 57 percent of BRI (basketball related income) the players get to 50 percent. The union is willing to reduce the percentage, but probably not down to a 50-50 split.

Montana
11-23-2010, 02:07 PM
Watching the Heat self-destruct has been one of the most enjoyable things that I've ever seen in sports.

fyp.

zeke
11-23-2010, 02:21 PM
"We're not having fun right now," James said.

da_next_kid
11-23-2010, 02:25 PM
yet we're only 14 games in and they are 8-6, Heat will be fine.

MindzEye
11-23-2010, 02:27 PM
They just lost their most important bench body for at least a few months, every coach in the league has more than enough tape to pick apart their numerous glaring weaknesses and a team that a lot of idiots in the media thought were going to make a run at 65+ wins looks like a 45-50 win ball club and a first round playoff fatality.

For all the hype and expectations they heaped upon themselves going into the season, that's an unmitigated disaster.

leafman101
11-23-2010, 02:27 PM
Don't think they wanted to be fine.

They wanted to be the best team ever.

axlsalinger
11-23-2010, 02:33 PM
I don't know about that, I have some inside information suggesting that what they really want to do is "chill".

da_next_kid
11-23-2010, 02:36 PM
14 games in, its a 82 game schedule. They have more than enough talent to get by without Haslem, and they will, Bosh is finally coming around. These guys signed for 5 years each, they are in it for the long haul. If they are a 45-50 win team at the end of the season, i will happily eat crow but please don't blow your load just 14 games in.

PlayerToBeNamedLater
11-23-2010, 02:37 PM
MOST. OVERRATED. TEAM. EVER.

Montana
11-23-2010, 02:41 PM
14 games in, its a 82 game schedule. They have more than enough talent to get by without Haslem, and they will, Bosh is finally coming around. These guys signed for 5 years each, they are in it for the long haul. If they are a 45-50 win team at the end of the season, i will happily eat crow but please don't blow your load just 14 games in.


Have they lived up to your expectations?

MindzEye
11-23-2010, 02:56 PM
14 games in, its a 82 game schedule.

yep...and they have to go 57-11 from here on in to hit 65 wins...52-16 "just" to hit 60. All while avoiding any major injuries to their big 3 (2 of whom have had a hard time playing 82 games throughout their careers)


They have more than enough talent to get by without Haslem

Only they don't, that is the misconception with this team, that they're incredibly talented...they're not. They have 3 incredibly talented players, Mike Miller, Haslem...and then nothing. Now Miller is out until at least January & Haslem is in the same boat. The rest of their rotation is complete trash.


and they will, Bosh is finally coming around.

Bosh, at around 12 FGA will probably average 17-18 ppg, and his rebounding average should be somewhere around 9. 18 & 9 isn't too far off from what he started the season doing, there is no big boost coming from him.


These guys signed for 5 years each, they are in it for the long haul. If they are a 45-50 win team at the end of the season, i will happily eat crow but please don't blow your load just 14 games in.

You keep saying this every step of the way, and I keep telling you...I told everyone this was going to happen. It's not rocket science, stop being a fan boy and try to understand how NBA games are won. Miami can't rebound, can't defend, are shit in the paint, and have no bench. I don't give a **** who the 3 big guys on the team are, unless they address those issues, it's a fatally flawed team.

You should start looking up crow recipes, just so it goes down easier.

PlayerToBeNamedLater
11-23-2010, 02:59 PM
YouTube - LeBron James says the Heat will win 7 titles

zeke
11-23-2010, 03:01 PM
NBA Offensive Rebounding Percentage:

1. Reggie Evans-TOR 18.5
2. Amir Johnson-TOR 17.4
3. JaVale McGee-WAS 15.2
4. Kevin Love-MIN 14.9
5. Marcus Camby-POR 14.0
6. Zach Randolph-MEM 14.0
7. Andris Biedrins-GSW 13.9
8. Joakim Noah-CHI 13.3
9. Roy Hibbert-IND 13.3
10. Blake Griffin-LAC 12.9

MindzEye
11-23-2010, 03:02 PM
I don't know how long they can keep it up for, but that's awesome.

axlsalinger
11-23-2010, 03:03 PM
LOL, ESPN's Heat Index = high comedy

http://espn.go.com/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/

Heat Index - Recent Headlines

- Heat Waive Jerry Stackhouse
- Pacers rout exposes depleted Heat bench
- When do you sound the alarm?
- Heat bracing for extended Haslem absence after MRI shows tear
- Another loss, another lesson for Heat
- Bosh may catch heat for Tweet
- How the Bobcats snuck back into it

Montana
11-23-2010, 03:04 PM
The only thing that would make the Heat more enjoyable, would be if Riley took over coaching and they got worse.

zeke
11-23-2010, 03:10 PM
I don't know how long they can keep it up for, but that's awesome.

as long as the opposing centre is out covering the 3pt line, I'd bet.

da_next_kid
11-23-2010, 03:18 PM
Miami is 5th in opponents points allowed per game, 3rd in point differential, 7th in opp FG%, 6th in opp 3FG%. By all means they are a top 5 defensive team.

Looking at raw stats can be sort of deceiving, so let's look at advance stats. Miami is 3rd in defensive rating (points allowed per 100 possessions), 3rd in opponents %eFG. They are one of the best defensive teams in the NBA. They are having problems in the paint and rebounding. Their SOS is 2nd in the league as well, so that hasn't made things easier at all. They are an averaging rebounding team with Bosh putting up career lows in Rebounding and its not due to his lack of minutes either, his rebounding rate has slipped but he's rebounded a lot better recently (last 4 games). Rebounding was never going to be their strength. They need more depth and talent and have more than half the season to wait for buyouts (maybe Peja), FA signing (just signed Dampier) and trades.

I predicted 55-60 wins for Heat and an NBA championship and I still stand by my prediction, They are an averaging rebounding team with top a 5 defense and offense (4th best Offensive rating in the league).

zeke
11-23-2010, 03:24 PM
But you forgot the really advanced stats:

Gayness: 98% (1st)
Faggotry: 99% (1st)
Egos Checked at the Door: 0 (30th)

sensbk
11-23-2010, 03:29 PM
What is offensive rebounding percentage?

The % of a teams missed shots that a player gets?

And Evans is just a beast, he's out rebounding Dwight Howard right now and is getting almost 6.5 minutes less.

Love/ 14rebounds per game/ 31.9 minutes pg/ .44rebounds/minute
Noah/13.3rpg/ 38.0 mpg/ .35 r/m
Gasol/12.1rpg/ 38.0 mpg/ .32 r/m
Evans/ 11.9rpg/ 27.2 mpg/ .44 r/m
Howard/ 11.6 rpg/ 33.5 mpg/ .35 r/m
Camby/ 11.4/ 30.8 mpg/ .37 r/m
Griffin/ 11.0rpg/ 35.2 mpg14/31.9/ .31 r/m

axlsalinger
11-23-2010, 04:26 PM
Looks like Haslem might be done for the year.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/news/story?id=5843177

MIAMI -- Heat forward Udonis Haslem may miss the remainder of the regular season after having surgery to repair a torn ligament in his left foot, and free agent Erick Dampier has been signed to help fill the void that creates.

Haslem had surgery Tuesday, the same day Dampier took a physical with the Heat -- the last hurdle before a contract could be signed. Dampier practiced with the Heat that afternoon.

Haslem ruptured the Lisfranc ligament in his foot, which connects arch bones to the ones leading to his toes. His recovery could take more than four months. The Heat may consider applying for an injury exception if the determination is that Haslem's season is over.

JaysCyYoung
11-23-2010, 06:21 PM
LOL 8-6.

ForeverTML
11-23-2010, 06:25 PM
heh

Metalleaf
11-23-2010, 06:58 PM
http://i.zdnet.com/blogs/nelson-muntz.gif

drewser
11-23-2010, 07:57 PM
Interview with Dennis Rodman... sounds as though he's receiving a BJ while on the phone: http://sportsradiointerviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/dennis-rodman-interview-11-23-10.mp3

From this site: http://sportsradiointerviews.com/2010/11/23/was-dennis-rodman-receiving-oral-sex-while-conducting-a-radio-interview/

mbow30
11-23-2010, 08:39 PM
But you forgot the really advanced stats:

Gayness: 98% (1st)
Faggotry: 99% (1st)
Egos Checked at the Door: 0 (30th)

this made me lawl

PlayerToBeNamedLater
11-24-2010, 02:44 PM
Heat justed signed Dampier so Bosh "can play less in the post" -- the coach said.

Don't want Bosh to break any finger nails.

HabsFan1
11-24-2010, 03:42 PM
Man I hope the heat screw up big time and are out in first round. That would be great.

axlsalinger
11-24-2010, 07:15 PM
Bargs should have his way with Thaddeus Young and Spencer Hawes up front tonight (Elton Brand is suspended for this game). Bargs already got to the line on possession # 1.

zeke
11-24-2010, 07:19 PM
Bargs has drawn 3 fouls, has 2 buckets, and a block in 3 minutes.

He may have figured something out.

axlsalinger
11-24-2010, 07:24 PM
Rebounding so far:

Reggie Evans 7
All 76ers + All Other Raptors 4

zeke
11-24-2010, 07:25 PM
6 minutes, 8 points, 3/4, 2blk,

Bargs = unstoppable

even if he lets Evans vacuum up all the easy boards

axlsalinger
11-24-2010, 07:37 PM
Andrea Bargnani's Key to Rebounding: "Box out the opponent, then box out Reggie Evans, then get the ball."

zeke
11-24-2010, 07:40 PM
huh. the raps are starting to feel it. Bayless sinks a 3 at the buzzer for his first raps points to make it 33-18 after 1 quarter.

Raps playing lockdown defense giving them a million and one fast breaks.

Evans with 10 boards in the quarter. the rest of the playres on both teams have combined for 8.

Calderon getting his shot back, going 3-3 for 7pts with 3ast (and 0to).

Bargs with 8pts in only 6 minutes. Weems and Barbosa running wild on the fast break.

seems like they're all getting to know their roles.

drewser
11-24-2010, 07:58 PM
Heat justed signed Dampier so Bosh "can play less in the post" -- the coach said.

Don't want Bosh to break any finger nails.

Signing might not have worked then, Bosh just left the Heat game with an injury apparently.

zeke
11-24-2010, 08:01 PM
ah dang, woulda been sweet to see Peja sink that first 3.

Fitzgerald#11
11-24-2010, 08:01 PM
dont want to get to excited since Philly is awful and are playing on a back to back, however there's a nice flow to this team. roles are clearly established and players seem comfortable

zeke
11-24-2010, 08:02 PM
Signing might not have worked then, Bosh just left the Heat game with an injury apparently.

chronic labia strain must be acting up again.

zeke
11-24-2010, 08:04 PM
peja for 3!

zeke
11-24-2010, 08:06 PM
so our new backup "center" is Peja.

nice.

Metalleaf
11-24-2010, 08:08 PM
15 Boards for Evans, awesome!!

axlsalinger
11-24-2010, 08:09 PM
Had a smile on my face watching that second quarter. The team chemistry is off the charts right now. Hopefully they can keep this going.

Metalleaf
11-24-2010, 08:10 PM
Peja = 7 points, Bayless = 6 points, good debuts so far.

zeke
11-24-2010, 08:10 PM
7pts in his first 3 minutes as a rap for Peja. not bad.

and thank the sweet lord the two biggest ball hogging tempo-killing pouting bitchy black holes on this team - Bosh and Jack - are gonzo.

good riddance.

MapleLeafBlueJayBoy
11-24-2010, 09:14 PM
First time I have watched the Raptors all season but they look very good. Totally different from last year. I like the hussle and I like the passion shown by this group.

MapleLeafBlueJayBoy
11-24-2010, 09:16 PM
Evans is a monster on the boards. Something this team has truly lacked since Oakley, Davis and Willis were on the team together.

Metalleaf
11-24-2010, 09:23 PM
Reggie!! Reggie!! Reggie!!

22 Boards!!

zeke
11-24-2010, 09:26 PM
what a fricken' animal.

and the 2nd best thing about the night was watching Jose D up strong, to go along with his 16pts/8ast/2stl/1to night.

only 24 from Bargs - he's gotta do better than that. tsk tsk.

axlsalinger
11-24-2010, 09:27 PM
Just an awesome game by the Raps, right from the start. Andrea was very demonstrative down the stretch, wanting the ball badly and they had to keep sending 2 or 3 guys to keep him from getting it.

Andrea with 24 points in just 32 minutes, 5 boards, 2 assists, 3 blocks.

Reggie was a beast in this game, double-double with 22 boards and 12 points. Jose was a very good floor general tonight, running the offence with 16 pts and 9 assists. Barbosa looking silky-smooth driving to the hoop. Nice debuts from Bayless and Peja as well.

zeke
11-24-2010, 09:29 PM
Raps just a half a game back from 8th now in the hilarious east.

and the heat are losing again.

Metalleaf
11-24-2010, 09:30 PM
Disappointed to see DeMar with only 5 points.

axlsalinger
11-24-2010, 10:24 PM
Orlando 104 Miami 95.

Heat now 8-7.

Watching them lose never gets old.

mbow30
11-24-2010, 10:28 PM
an impressive debut from bayless.

he's a real wild card. the talent is definitely there; if they can turn him into a player then it was a steal of a trade, imo.

peja could be a nice trade chip, too. the guy can still shoot the ball. and a guy who is a deadly three point shooter -- and an expiring contract -- will always have value on the trade market.

he could maybe even make a three-way deal for a guy like melo very, very interesting...

Montana
11-24-2010, 10:42 PM
Orlando 104 Miami 95.

Heat now 8-7.


http://www.gifbin.com/bin/4007g6675.gif

mbow30
11-25-2010, 02:25 AM
“It’s just about hard work,” Iguodala said. “There is no equation behind that. He just goes out there and works hard and you can only respect that. If anything, our guys should learn from the way he plays the game.”

Teammate DeMar DeRozan(notes) sees Evans a little differently.

“He’s just a big crazy dude who gets rebounds. A tough guy out there on the floor,” DeRozan said.
...

MindzEye
11-25-2010, 01:11 PM
Efficiency Numbers from last night's game

Weems - 4
Evans - 32
Bargnani - 21
DeRozan - 4
Calderon - 26
Barbosa - 5
Amir - 13
Bayless - 13
Kleiza - 3
Peja - 7

Notables for Philly

AI - 22
Young - 18
Holiday - 23

JaysCyYoung
11-25-2010, 01:12 PM
Loving the Raptors rebounding totals over the last few games. How much of an impact would Reggie's glass presence and physicality in the post made on last season's team? They make the playoffs with some comfortable breathing room one would have to assume.

mbow30
11-25-2010, 01:31 PM
he wasn't able to spend as much time under the basket because of bosh's back-to-the-basket game.

bosh needs a big C beside him to maximize his value, imo. with evans you're either palying him out of position at the 3, or you're forcing bosh into a pseudo-centre role, where he is ****ing terrible.

i'm liking the makeup of this team. it reminds me a little bit of the early raps where they had a whole bunch of pieces with potential, that started to come togheter once some rebounding character/tough guys were brought into the fold (jones, jyd, willis, oak).

this team isn't a contending team by any stretch. but the makings of a competitive team are there. i think the heat are showing the limits of the big three talent model. i think you can compete in this league with good chemistry and talent throughout the lineup, provided you have a few guys who can step up and take over offensively when the time calls for it.

the big revelation this year has been weems, though. he's pretty much the first quality starting SF the raps have ever had.

axlsalinger
11-25-2010, 03:41 PM
They've got several guys who can drive into the paint fairly often (DeMar, Weems, Bayless) which is huge, and something we've rarely had on this team. When the shots aren't falling, we may struggle a bit, which is where Peja Stojakovic can make a huge difference. You just throw him out there and he can hit shots from anywhere at any time.

Biggest thing is chemistry, seems great right now. We'll see how they perform once the hot streak ends.

zeke
11-25-2010, 04:00 PM
he wasn't able to spend as much time under the basket because of bosh's back-to-the-basket game.

bosh needs a big C beside him to maximize his value, imo. with evans you're either palying him out of position at the 3, or you're forcing bosh into a pseudo-centre role, where he is ****ing terrible.
.

not sure what kind of player would complement Bosh in a frontcourt, to be honest.

MindzEye
11-25-2010, 04:02 PM
Any legit centre that bangs, defends, rebounds but doesn't need many touches offensively really.

Chandler, Oden, Dampier (from a few years back), Brad Miller (ditto), etc

zeke
11-25-2010, 04:05 PM
I wonder if even that would work right.

MindzEye
11-25-2010, 04:13 PM
I don't wonder at all, it would work.

Bosh isn't some new contraption that nobody in the league has ever seen before. He's very similar to the type of newish breed of face-up PF's that have populated the league over the last 20 yrs.

PF's historically got most of their offensive possessions in the same manner as centres did. Low blocks, back to the basket post moves. Guys like Larry Nance started changing that, showing how athletic the PF position could be and the evolution continued with the Shawn Kemp's, Antonio McDyess types. The trick has always been to put the best no nonsense thug in the paint next to him that you could.

zeke
11-25-2010, 04:24 PM
meh. give examples of successful duos, plz.

MindzEye
11-25-2010, 04:28 PM
Shawn Kemp & Ervin Johnson
Rasheed Wallace & Ben Wallace
Tim Duncan & The Admiral
Chris Webber & Vlade
Kevin Garnett & Kendrick Perkins

That's just off the top of my head, I'm sure some digging would unearth a bunch more.

zeke
11-25-2010, 04:32 PM
Which one of Tim Duncan or the Admiral did you just compare Bosh to?

zeke
11-25-2010, 04:34 PM
And Wallace, Webber, and Garnett all had much better range and perimeter games.

MindzEye
11-25-2010, 04:35 PM
21 yr old Tim Duncan.

Better than Bosh, but he still played a lot of face up at the 4 spot in his first 2 seasons before he put some weight on. Won a title while doing it.

mbow30
11-25-2010, 04:35 PM
and could all back defenders down like bosh could only dream of doing.

zeke
11-25-2010, 04:36 PM
well, then, there's your mistake.

MindzEye
11-25-2010, 04:37 PM
And Wallace, Webber, and Garnett all had much better range and perimeter games.

Sheed...sure, better spot up shooter from range.

The other two though? No, not at all. Where they're both better than Bosh (offensively) is that they both possessed the size and footwork to back in a defender of similar or smaller size. Both were better at working the low blocks than Bosh has ever shown the ability to do.

from 17-19, Bosh is every bit as good a jump shooter as those two.

MindzEye
11-25-2010, 04:39 PM
Career 3pt %

Garnett - .283%
Webber - .299%
Bosh - .302%

zeke
11-25-2010, 04:47 PM
not to mention those guys were all much bigger than Bosh, too.

zeke
11-25-2010, 04:48 PM
basically Bosh is a big gay tweener

and I think it's been clearly proved that he can't rebound at that kind of level without Bellissimo Bargnani drawing one of the big men out of the paint at all times.

QED

sorry

Preston_Mizzi
11-25-2010, 04:50 PM
Those guys are all way better defenders than Bosh.. hell even Bargnani is much better than that faggot defensively.

Aberdeen
11-25-2010, 04:50 PM
Bosh is a stick man compared to most of those guys you listed.

MindzEye
11-25-2010, 04:54 PM
well, then, there's your mistake.

Meh, Kemp really didn't do much backing down...Sheed does at times, but it was never a huge strength of his game.


not to mention those guys were all much bigger than Bosh, too.

This just isn't true, as usual with your dislike for Bosh. Say whatever you want for my dislike of Bargnani's game, I at least maintain a grip on reality.

Bosh 6'10 235
Shawn Kemp (Sonics years) 6'10 230
Sheed Wallace (Pistons years) 6'10 235
Webber 6'9-6'10 245
Garnett (MVP) 6'11 240, (Title) 6'11 250

Webber is the only one who was significantly heavier during his best personal years. Webber was a tank.

MindzEye
11-25-2010, 04:56 PM
basically Bosh is a big gay tweener

It's hard to take you serious when simple definitions escape you.


and I think it's been clearly proved that he can't rebound at that kind of level without Bellissimo Bargnani drawing one of the big men out of the paint at all times.

10.7 when Bargnani was a rookie on the bench.

Keep inventing shit to support your boy though, I only deal in facts.

MindzEye
11-25-2010, 04:59 PM
Those guys are all way better defenders than Bosh.. hell even Bargnani is much better than that faggot defensively.

Meh, Bargnani is no hell defensively. But yeah, most of the guys I named were/are much better post defenders than Bosh.

I didn't get into this to point out anything about Bosh, aside from the fact that if complimented in the front court properly, he could be a key piece on a good team. Not exactly making a bold statement there.

MindzEye
11-25-2010, 05:04 PM
Bosh is a stick man compared to most of those guys you listed.

Only...he's not

http://thehoopdoctors.com/online/wp-content/uploads/kemp.jpg

http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/sports/buck/img/may04/wallace524.jpg

http://www.derok.net/images/timberwolves/kevin%20garnett%20on%20the%20bench.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_OIZUaB6eAeE/TCqkTt2byGI/AAAAAAAACTw/pGee43YwEKE/s1600/chris-bosh.jpg

Hoss
11-25-2010, 05:33 PM
shawn kemp was one of my favourites...

MindzEye
11-25-2010, 05:37 PM
Kemp teabags Rodman

YouTube - Kemp Dunks on Rodman

PlayerToBeNamedLater
11-25-2010, 06:11 PM
Bosh's return to Toronto will be nothing compared to Lebron's return to Cleveland.





LeBron James will return to Cleveland's Quicken Loans Arena on Dec. 2 for the first time since the Akron-born James announced he was leaving the Cavaliers for the Miami Heat.

And the Cavaliers and the NBA are doing all they can to make sure the emotional and hostile scene does not turn ugly.

The team and the league have been planning for this date since the summer, starting a continuing dialogue since the Heat's first game in Cleveland was scheduled in early August. The Cavaliers, the league and the Cleveland Police Department have had conference calls discussing the proper way to secure the game, which will be televised nationally on TNT.

To ensure James' safety, there will be dozens of extra police officers on hand, both uniformed and undercover. Officers will be stationed inside and outside the arena, and many will be positioned by the Heat bench and at the tunnel where the Heat players will enter the court.

"Honestly, I'm a little bit afraid," one member of the Cavs organization said. "Some people don't care. Their mentality is 'I've got to get this off my chest.' There's so much negative energy around this game. People aren't excited about the game itself. They're just like, 'I can't wait to do something.'"

The Cavaliers have been one of the few NBA teams to have metal detectors at every arena entrance since Dan Gilbert bought the club more than five years ago, but they will go beyond that on Dec. 2.

The team has done research on the various crude and offensive James T-shirts in circulation locally, and officials will be stationed at entrances to make sure no fans enter with such shirts or signs that disrespect James or his family members. They'll also be in the stands, authorized to take away inappropriate apparel. Fans who have such shirts will be required to remove them and then will be given a Cavaliers-branded T-shirt to wear instead. All inappropriate signs also will be confiscated and officials will be on the lookout throughout the game for inebriated fans or fans who are preparing to throw things onto the court.

"We don't want to create a police state," said Tad Carper, the Cavaliers' senior vice president of communications. "We've always had a real energetic, super-charged home crowd and we want to encourage that for every game, including Dec. 2. We want people to enjoy themselves and express themselves, but we don't want fans to cross the boundaries of decency. We're not going to allow profanity and things like that. We'll have no tolerance for anyone trying to cross those boundaries."

Carper and other members of the organization will appear on local television and radio stations next week, encouraging fans not to go beyond the boundaries of what is considered acceptable fan behavior. That may be wishful thinking, though, as many Clevelanders are angered not only by James' departure but by the fact that he announced it on a nationally televised ESPN show referred to as "The Decision."

Carper said the number of media requests the club has received -- for a CNN news crew included -- equals that of an Eastern Conference finals game.

"We feel like we're in good position," Carper said of the security plans for the game. "We understand that folks want to let out their emotions and we feel they can do that without crossing the line. Law-abiding, legal, safe behavior is what we're looking for."

zeke
11-25-2010, 06:21 PM
MindzEye hearts http://5toolblogger.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/cowboybosh.jpg

JaysCyYoung
11-25-2010, 06:21 PM
Fans have every right to bring whatever signs or t-shirts they want to the game. Keep the ****ing fascism out of it.

TimHorton
11-25-2010, 06:25 PM
Completely agree Jayz, but it don't matter. Shirts or no shirts, they're gonna burn that mother down.

PlayerToBeNamedLater
11-25-2010, 06:28 PM
http://www.shirtlog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/4793798508_a70c55154b.jpg

http://www.shirtlog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/lebron300.jpg

http://rlv.zcache.com/lebrown_flush_him_down_anti_lebron_t_shirts-p235098105002540327yxwe_400.jpg

http://www.teamschwag.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/dunk_on_lebron.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_4Y1VR-W2wqU/TDut63rPNWI/AAAAAAAAAjk/WEgjNaMmoDo/s400/lebronhate1.jpg

http://www.lebronshames.com/dirtylaundry/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/quitness.jpg

http://tshirtgroove.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/luck-febron-t-shirt.jpg

http://rlv.zcache.com/wades_lebiatch_anti_lebron_gear_tshirt-p235669722979981781trym_400.jpg

JaysCyYoung
11-25-2010, 06:29 PM
The two Delonte West ones are comic gold.

PlayerToBeNamedLater
11-25-2010, 06:31 PM
Raps = 2 games behind Heat.


ahahahahahahahahahahahahhahaahhaha

drewser
11-25-2010, 07:30 PM
Nice article on Bargnani from the Miami Herald:

http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/11/24/1941961/bargnani-letting-his-game-do-the.html

(too long to paste the whole thing)

Hoss
11-25-2010, 07:44 PM
Nice article on Bargnani from the Miami Herald:

http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/11/24/1941961/bargnani-letting-his-game-do-the.html

(too long to paste the whole thing)

That's unpossible.... ME says he sucks crap and has the numbers to prove it. That guy who wrote that article has never seen the FGO%/pi r 2 numbers that prove he sucks :thumbsup(22):

Volcanologist
11-25-2010, 07:45 PM
Kudos to Bargnani and the Raps for the 6-9 record so far. Definitely a surprise to me.

axlsalinger
11-25-2010, 07:58 PM
From the article:

Despite it being Nowitzki's second year in the league and Bargnani's fourth, here are their numbers in the first year of averaging at least 35 minutes per contest:

Bargnani: (09-10): 17.2 PPG, 1.4 BLK, 1.2 AST, 1.3 ORB, 6.2 REB, 77 FT%, 37 3P%, 47 FG%

Nowitzki: (99-00): 17.5 PPG, 0.8 BLK, 2.5 AST, 1.2 ORB, 6.5 REB, 83 FT%, 38 3P%, 46 FG%

LeafGm
11-25-2010, 08:24 PM
Man, the way Cleveland's planning to handle that game is pretty lame. I understand the extra police presence to make sure there's no physical threat possible, but the fans should be able to wear or bring in whatever insulting or denigrating signs they want.

Anyways, I think that game will be the first basketball game not involving the Raptors that I watch. Anyone know if it'll be televised in Canada?

Exit716
11-25-2010, 08:26 PM
probably TSN2

axlsalinger
11-25-2010, 08:28 PM
You'd have to assume they'd be smart enough to televise it somewhere here. Next Thursday night (Dec. 2).

MindzEye
11-25-2010, 08:45 PM
That's unpossible.... ME says he sucks crap and has the numbers to prove it. That guy who wrote that article has never seen the FGO%/pi r 2 numbers that prove he sucks :thumbsup(22):

I love when people put words in my mouth.

I've called the guy an "extremely talented scorer" numerous times. I'm actually very encouraged to see that he's decided to find hit nuts this year and puts the ball on the court a bit more (I'd like to see him get his FTA up closer to 7 *at 5.4 now*...but it's a step in the right direction)

My major, major qualm with him, is that he's a centre (despite Zeke's protests to the contrary) that isn't just a poor rebounder, but a historic joke of a rebounder at the position. You can't build a successful team around that. As cute as all the Dirk comparisons are (including that stat set listed above, comparing Dirk as a 21 yr old to Bargnani as a 24 yr old) Dirk followed that up by putting up 9.2 Reb the following season, Bargnani is following it up by putting up 4.8

Just to use his same comparison for the following seasons

*25* Bargnani: (10-11): 21.9 PPG, 0.9 BLK, 1.4 AST, 1.3 ORB, 4.8 REB, 83 FT% 5.4 FTA, 44 3P%, 46 FG%

*22* Nowitzki: (00-01): 21.8 PPG, 1.2 BLK, 2.1 AST, 1.5 ORB, 9.2 REB, 84 FT% 6.6 FTA , 39 3P%, 47 FG%


Dirk is really the only comparable for Bargnani, but Bargnani has a leaves a gaping hole in the comparison.

Hoss
11-25-2010, 08:50 PM
the only stat that has a major difference is the rebounding... the only one.

at the same time his 3pt% is at 5% greater.

So in order for a centre to be considered good, he must be good at rebounding as well.

Why not just accept that Bargnani is playing the centre differently than others. Let Reggie Evans crash and bang down low... lets then put Bargnani outside and either force their banger to come out of the paint to guard him, or put a smaller player up top to guard him...

It's just a different way to look at the position.

Preston_Mizzi
11-25-2010, 08:53 PM
Wasn't ME the one that put down Bargnani's offensive ability because he "takes a lot of shots."

Good to see he's backtracking at least, by admitting hes a great offensive player.

MindzEye
11-25-2010, 08:58 PM
MindzEye hearts

Not at all, **** that little twitter sissy.

But, I'm not going to sit back and lie about him, or change my opinion about him as a player because he showed himself to be a severe bitch. The guy is a legitimate All Star level powerforward...shit, even as bad as he's started off the season, he's been better than Bargnani according to several metrics

EFF

Bosh - 20.1
Bargnani - 16.3

Win Shares/48 (Total)

Bosh - .224 (2.4)
Bargnani - .096 (1.0)

PER

Bosh - 21.2
Bargnani - 17.2

Some of the offensive stats:

TS% (True Shooting percentage)

Bosh - .598%
Bargnani - .555%

eFG% (Effective Field Goal %)

Bosh - .522%
Bargnani - .502%

TOV% (Turnover %)

Bosh - 7.2%
Bargnani - 12.2%

Otr

Bosh - 121
Bargnani 107

I'm not even going to post the rebounding rate statistics...even with Bosh rebounding as poor as he has since his rookie season, he's putting up numbers Bargnani has never shown himself capable of


Yeah, Bosh is a complete and utter bitch who just wants to 'chill' when he should be working his ass off to try to win a title. I'm glad that we're not stuck with an attitude like that in Toronto. However, to pretend that Bargnani is a better ball player just because we're upset with Chris Bosh is silly...even as bad as he's been by his standards so far this season, he's still head and shoulders better.

MindzEye
11-25-2010, 09:00 PM
Wasn't ME the one that put down Bargnani's offensive ability because he "takes a lot of shots."

Good to see he's backtracking at least, by admitting hes a great offensive player.

I've never claimed anything to the contrary that he's a very talented offensive player.

I wouldn't go as far as calling him great though.

Isaac25
11-25-2010, 09:01 PM
the only stat that has a major difference is the rebounding... the only one.

at the same time his 3pt% is at 5% greater.

So in order for a centre to be considered good, he must be good at rebounding as well.

Why not just accept that Bargnani is playing the centre differently than others. Let Reggie Evans crash and bang down low... lets then put Bargnani outside and either force their banger to come out of the paint to guard him, or put a smaller player up top to guard him...

It's just a different way to look at the position.

I agree...The Raps are 7th in the league in offensive rebounding and 12th overall at +2.2 in total rebounds. Rebounding the ball is really not an issue...

PlayerToBeNamedLater
11-25-2010, 09:06 PM
http://drunkathlete.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/tj-ford-andrea-bargnani-chris-bosh-toronto-raptors-3-drunk-pictures1.jpg



Bosh has horrible taste in women as well.

MindzEye
11-25-2010, 09:06 PM
the only stat that has a major difference is the rebounding... the only one.

But...it's a really, really big one, and by a really, really big margin.


at the same time his 3pt% is at 5% greater.

Not even close to the equivalent of giving up over 4 rebounds per game. Not even the equivalent of .4 rebounds per game.


So in order for a centre to be considered good, he must be good at rebounding as well.

At the centre position yes...it's kind of a necessary skill.


Why not just accept that Bargnani is playing the centre differently than others.

Because the point of the exercise is winning, we will not win anything, ever with a 4.8 rpg centre. We won't win anything with a 4.8 rpg powerforward.


Let Reggie Evans crash and bang down low... lets then put Bargnani outside and either force their banger to come out of the paint to guard him, or put a smaller player up top to guard him...

It's just a different way to look at the position.

Again, it's about winning. You cannot build a winning team around a big man that doesn't rebound. You just can't.

It's not about looking at the position differently, because as talented a scorer as Bargnani is, he's not talented enough to change the way the game is played.

MindzEye
11-25-2010, 09:12 PM
I agree...The Raps are 7th in the league in offensive rebounding and 12th overall at +2.2 in total rebounds. Rebounding the ball is really not an issue...

We're as high as we are in rebounding because Reggie Evans and Amir Johnson are 1st and 16th in REB/40 in the NBA right now. I love Reggie Evans (go back far enough in this thread and you'll find Zeke arguing against us adding him, and me saying that he can bring the energy and rebounding last year's team desperately needed) and Amir both....but I don't expect that to continue all year. Amir maybe...but not a chance Reggie does this all season.

PlayerToBeNamedLater
11-25-2010, 09:13 PM
I think he's dating a midget.


http://www.eurweb.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/chris-bosh-adrienne-williams.jpg

MindzEye
11-25-2010, 09:16 PM
According to the "Like a Bosh" song, she's crazy as well.

TimHorton
11-25-2010, 09:19 PM
Nice rack on her.

MindzEye
11-25-2010, 09:20 PM
Wonder if she knows that he skipped out on the child support payments on the last one?

TimHorton
11-25-2010, 09:27 PM
Woman being a dumb-dumb shocker.

zeke
11-25-2010, 09:30 PM
tough, tough day for MzE.

MindzEye
11-25-2010, 09:34 PM
http://www.freefoto.com/images/01/08/01_08_52---Duck_web.jpg?&k=Duck

zeke
11-25-2010, 09:43 PM
http://slamonline.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/andrea_bargnani_point.jpg

MindzEye
11-25-2010, 09:47 PM
http://www.memphisflyer.com/images/blogimages/2009/05/14/1242332887-lottery.jpg

zeke
11-25-2010, 09:55 PM
http://www.24sec.net/images/lib/Legal%20photos/Italy/Andrea%20Bargnani%20-%20Benetton%20III%20(euroleague).jpg

MindzEye
11-25-2010, 10:02 PM
Heh...Italian league awards.

They don't mean much over here Zeke. Enjoy the lottery.

Preston_Mizzi
11-25-2010, 10:08 PM
http://www.fulmicotone.com/files/2008/11/andrea-bargnani1.jpg

TimHorton
11-25-2010, 10:15 PM
As a Laker fan let me be the first to hope the rest of the NBA follows the Raptor example of having a centre who is allergic to the paint. I fully support thier decision on this.

Go Raps!

Preston_Mizzi
11-25-2010, 10:21 PM
PF*

zeke
11-25-2010, 10:33 PM
Heh...Italian league awards.

They don't mean much over here Zeke. Enjoy the lottery.

why so sure?

Raps are top-10 in rebounding differential, and rebounding percentage.

you love rebounds.

MindzEye
11-25-2010, 10:47 PM
http://www.fulmicotone.com/files/2008/11/andrea-bargnani1.jpg

Photoshopped...Bargnani never gets that close to the rim.

MindzEye
11-25-2010, 10:50 PM
why so sure?

Raps are top-10 in rebounding differential, and rebounding percentage.

you love rebounds.

Because the key reason they're scraping the edge of that top 10 is Reggie Evans, and he won't keep this up all year.

Rebounding is a team thing, everybody has to pitch in. This whole nonsense about "so and so makes up for his shitty rebounding" is wrong to the point of hilarity.

Enjoy the lottery.

MindzEye
11-25-2010, 10:51 PM
PF*

Nope.

axlsalinger
11-26-2010, 01:59 AM
What is with this "enjoy the lottery" b.s.? I thought you were a Raptors fan. If you're not, you spend an awful lot of time worrying about Andrea Bargnani.

zeke
11-26-2010, 09:23 AM
Because the key reason they're scraping the edge of that top 10 is Reggie Evans, and he won't keep this up all year.

Rebounding is a team thing, everybody has to pitch in. This whole nonsense about "so and so makes up for his shitty rebounding" is wrong to the point of hilarity.

Enjoy the lottery.

meh.

Reggie's always averaged about 10reb per 30min in his career.

This year he's just getting an extra couple of offensive rebounds a game because thanks to Il Mago Extraordinario, there's no centre in the paint competing with him for those boards.

Must kill you that we're better off without your two boys in the fold. Ah well, enjoy all the hating this year.

sensbk
11-26-2010, 09:51 AM
Raps are playing in Boston tonight, Rondo is expected to miss the game. Delonte West broke his wrist the other night so they are looking weak at PG if they have to use Nate Robertson and Marquis Daniels.

I expect the Celtics to win but without Rondo it will be a close game.

Despite a 1-7 start, The Raps are 2 games back of Miami for 6th. The Heat are home to Philly tonight, sure to win that one but you never know.

MindzEye
11-26-2010, 11:11 AM
What is with this "enjoy the lottery" b.s.? I thought you were a Raptors fan. If you're not, you spend an awful lot of time worrying about Andrea Bargnani.

I am a Raptors fan, but I'm borderline irate with the makeup of the team and the direction it's going in. I see a lot of people really happy with beating the 76'ers of the league, thinking that it means something.

We're exactly where you don't want to be as a team. Not good enough to make the playoffs, but not bad enough top claim a top pick. Made worse by the fact that we have a non franchise player level top player who doesn't only take up a spot at the 4-5 (which will cut into the development time of Davis) without doing the work expected of the position but takes the lion share of perimeter touches (which will cut into the development of DeRozan)

MindzEye
11-26-2010, 11:21 AM
meh.

Reggie's always averaged about 10reb per 30min in his career.

and right now, he's significantly above it


This year he's just getting an extra couple of offensive rebounds a game because thanks to Il Mago Extraordinario, there's no centre in the paint competing with him for those boards.

He's averaging 8.1 Defensive rebounds a game...the more impressive of his rebounding rates. Making up for the fact that Bargnani is averaging 3.5 defensive rebounds a game.



Must kill you that we're better off without your two boys in the fold. Ah well, enjoy all the hating this year.

The sad thing is that you consider this club to be better than the one that was 6 games over .500 at the all star break last year.

and if you remember correctly, I didn't like last year's club either...you were the one endless fellating them.

Montana
11-26-2010, 11:25 AM
Kyrie Irving is the reason Raptors fans should be a little saddened by their recent proclivity for winning games.

sensbk
11-26-2010, 11:30 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPP7pf2Ng3s&feature=related

MyNameIsJonas
11-26-2010, 11:30 AM
I smell a 8th-10th pick scenerio with this team which is not where you want to be.

I don't think we are bad enough to get Kyrie Irving

MindzEye
11-26-2010, 11:32 AM
Don't worry about it....Colangelo is going to use both of our 1sts this year to trade up to the 7th-8th spot at get this kid

http://content.draftexpress.com/gallery/DonatasMotiejunas/1233896548.jpg

From Benneton Treviso (I shit you not)


Strengths
- Excellent skill-level
- Mismatch Potential
- Scoring instincts
- Ability to create own shot
- Ball-handling skills w/either hand
- Excellent hands
- Excellent Touch
- Left-handed
- Level of competition
- Solid passer
- Ability to run the floor
- Athleticism
- Size for position
- 3-point range
- Pick and pop potential


From DraftExpress.com http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Donatas-Motiejunas-1300/#ixzz16PHAGq6M
http://www.draftexpress.com



Weaknesses
- Inability to establish position in post
- Ability to defend position at next level?
- Commitment to playing defense
- Defensive awareness
- Gets backed down in post
- Consistency
- Doesn't always play hard
- Mental/Physical toughness?
- Not ready to contribute immediately
- Questionable intangibles
- Can NBA rookie scale compete financially w/other options?
- Cultural adjustment to NBA
- Strength
- Poor rebounder


He's basically a carbon copy of Bargnani...but he's not Italian, so Zeke won't like this one.

zeke
11-26-2010, 11:55 AM
I am a Raptors fan, but I'm borderline irate with the makeup of the team and the direction it's going in. I see a lot of people really happy with beating the 76'ers of the league, thinking that it means something.

er, MindzEye, the raps have beaten the Celts and Magic, and were in it to the very end in the 2nd night of a back to back on the road in Miami with 3 regulars injured.

We've got one of the most efficitent PGs in the league, one of the best scoring big men in the league, are a very good rebounding team, and have super athletic wings. And very good depth. We're also extremely young.

Not the most talented team around, but makeup-wise, there's plenty to like.

You don't like this team because of Bargnani and Calderon. We'll see how that turns out for you.

zeke
11-26-2010, 12:15 PM
and right now, he's significantly above it

He's averaging 8.1 Defensive rebounds a game...the more impressive of his rebounding rates. Making up for the fact that Bargnani is averaging 3.5 defensive rebounds a game.

.

Actually his offensive rebounds per minute lead the league, while his defensive rebounds per minute do not, so it's his ORB that's the more impressive of his rates.

MindzEye
11-26-2010, 12:18 PM
er, MindzEye, the raps have beaten the Celts and Magic, and were in it to the very end in the 2nd night of a back to back on the road in Miami with 3 regulars injured.

Beat the Celtics sans Rondo

We've also lost to a lot of mediocre and shite teams.


We've got one of the most efficitent PGs in the league

Also one of the biggest defensive black holes at the position in the league


one of the best scoring big men in the league

Who does nothing else aside from score at a good rate


are a very good rebounding team

We have Reggie Evans playing out of his mind...not a "very good rebounding team". When Reggie Evans is no longer able to play out of his mind, we won't look like a very good rebounding team. A "very good rebounding team" is a team of strong rebounders. We have 2 strong rebounders playing at career high rates right now.


and have super athletic wings.

Fair enough


And very good depth

Decent at best


We're also extremely young.

Without a lot of top end talent. Lots of shit teams with no future are really young. See the Sixers that the Raps just spanked the other night.


Not the most talented team around, but makeup-wise, there's plenty to like.

Not if you like winning there isn't.


You don't like this team because of Bargnani and Calderon. We'll see how that turns out for you.

A PG who doesn't play D and a C that can't rebound would top my dislikes about this team yeah.

We will see how that turns out for me. I like my odds.

Preston_Mizzi
11-26-2010, 12:27 PM
This is getting ridiculous..

MindzEye
11-26-2010, 12:28 PM
Actually his offensive rebounds per minute lead the league, while his defensive rebounds per minute do not, so it's his ORB that's the more impressive of his rates.

Reggie has always been an insane offensive rebounder though, and simply a good defensive rebounder.

If you take his last healthy, good season before joining the Raps (he was nagged by a lot of minor injuries in his last season with Philly)

07/08: 23.2 MPG 2.8ORPG 4.4DRPG
10/11: 27.8MPG 4.4ORPG 8.1DRPG

Adjust 07/08 to 10/11's minutes and you'll understand what I was getting at:

07/08 adjusted: 3.4 ORPG 5.3DRPG

Now which is more impressive? A 1 offensive rebound increase over a typical Reggie Evans performance, or a 2.8 defensive rebound increase?

zeke
11-26-2010, 12:31 PM
We have Reggie Evans playing out of his mind...not a "very good rebounding team". When Reggie Evans is no longer able to play out of his mind, we won't look like a very good rebounding team. A "very good rebounding team" is a team of strong rebounders. We have 2 strong rebounders playing at career high rates right now..

You're exaggerating.

Evans is rebounding marginally better than his career bests right now (and that's mostly thanks to his huge game last game - and we were a very good rebounding team before that performance).

And that marginal difference is reflected in Bargs rebounds being marginally down as well.

Meanwhile, Amir Johnson is rebounding at his career average rate (9.9/36m).

And we should be adding a strong athletic rebounder soon in Ed Davis, as well. Not to mention Joey the Animal Dorsey deep on the bench when need be.

MindzEye
11-26-2010, 12:35 PM
This is getting ridiculous..

Talk to the homer

I'm pointing out what I don't like about a 6-9 team that was complete shit when Chris Bosh wasn't in the lineup last year. 11-21 without Bosh over the last 3 seasons (can't find the numbers for the 12 games he missed in the second half last year...but it was ugly...I'd be surprised if they were better than 4-8 without Bosh)

The homer is acting like all is awesome....because he has to, he's been claiming since last year that this team would be better with Bosh, with his boy as the main cog. He's got his chance now and it's off to a shit start.

MindzEye
11-26-2010, 12:37 PM
You're exaggerating.

Evans is rebounding marginally better than his career bests right now (and that's mostly thanks to his huge game last game - and we were a very good rebounding team before that performance).

And that marginal difference is reflected in Bargs rebounds being marginally down as well.

Meanwhile, Amir Johnson is rebounding at his career average rate (9.9/36m).

And we should be adding a strong athletic rebounder soon in Ed Davis, as well. Not to mention Joey the Animal Dorsey deep on the bench when need be.

Okay, you're thrilled. I'm not.

You enjoy your bouncy lottery balls, I'm done with this.

zeke
11-26-2010, 12:42 PM
Reggie has always been an insane offensive rebounder though, and simply a good defensive rebounder.

If you take his last healthy, good season before joining the Raps (he was nagged by a lot of minor injuries in his last season with Philly)

07/08: 23.2 MPG 2.8ORPG 4.4DRPG
10/11: 27.8MPG 4.4ORPG 8.1DRPG

Adjust 07/08 to 10/11's minutes and you'll understand what I was getting at:

07/08 adjusted: 3.4 ORPG 5.3DRPG

Now which is more impressive? A 1 offensive rebound increase over a typical Reggie Evans performance, or a 2.8 defensive rebound increase?

Per-36min:


Career AVG: 4.5off, 8.2def, 12.7tot
Career Best: 5.0ogg, 9.7def, 14.7tot
2010-2011: 5.7off, 10.6def, 16.3tot
B4 Last Gm: 5.8off, 9.9def, 15.7tot

Taking his averages the day after his huge game obviously skews things a bit, and we were a healthily positive rebounding team before that game anyways.

Prior to last game, he was matching his career best defensive rebounding rate, and beating his career best offensive rebounding rate.

Overall, he's rebounding better than usual, but that's reflected in his teammates rebounding being down by about the same amount (both Bargnani -1.0/36m beside him in the frontcourt, and Demar -1.0 & Kleiza -1.5 in the 3 spot).

zeke
11-26-2010, 12:49 PM
Talk to the homer

I'm pointing out what I don't like about a 6-9 team that was complete shit when Chris Bosh wasn't in the lineup last year. 11-21 without Bosh over the last 3 seasons (can't find the numbers for the 12 games he missed in the second half last year...but it was ugly...I'd be surprised if they were better than 4-8 without Bosh).

They went 3-4 in the 7 games Bosh missed in Feb/Mar - with the 4 losses coming against CLE, POR, OKL, and HOU (with the two home losses to CLE and POR going right down to the last minute).

They went 2-3 in the 5 games Bosh missed at the end of the season, with the 3 losses coming to BOS, ATL, and CHI.

So they went 5-7 overall without Bosh, with all 7 losses coming against playoff teams.

"Ugly"

Preston_Mizzi
11-26-2010, 01:38 PM
ME likes to act like some basketball god know-it-all.. it gets a bit annoying, especially when he's clearly wrong about nearly everything he says.

axlsalinger
11-26-2010, 02:33 PM
I am a Raptors fan, but I'm borderline irate with the makeup of the team and the direction it's going in. I see a lot of people really happy with beating the 76'ers of the league, thinking that it means something.

We're exactly where you don't want to be as a team. Not good enough to make the playoffs, but not bad enough top claim a top pick. Made worse by the fact that we have a non franchise player level top player who doesn't only take up a spot at the 4-5 (which will cut into the development time of Davis) without doing the work expected of the position but takes the lion share of perimeter touches (which will cut into the development of DeRozan)The Raptors fanbase is definitely divided on Bargnani and always has been, but your hate-on for the guy is getting more and more absurd by the day. I expect it from 12-year olds on Real GM, not from a smart guy like you. You dislike the player, we get it. As a Raptors fan, try to take at least a little pleasure in winning some games. As you know, because it's been debated here many times, tanking does not guarantee anything in professional sports. I'm not interested in sitting through a 8-74 season just because of the draft lottery, in a year when many players are not going to declare anyways because of labour uncertainty.

Your claim of this being a classic treadmill team is erroneous, because there are already so many young players. Nothing is guaranteed, but if at least 2 or 3 of DeRozan, Weems, Bayless, Davis and Amir progress to their potential, this is going to be a very interesting team.

And did you really claim that Bargnani is stealing touches from a SG? Come on man.

Bargnani is not going to lead a team to a championship by himself, but he can be a starter on a high-end team, absolutely.

Montana
11-26-2010, 02:46 PM
This argument is gayer than the gasoline fight in Zoolander.

MyNameIsJonas
11-26-2010, 03:04 PM
This argument is gayer than the gasoline fight in Zoolander.

Not nearly as entertaining though

axlsalinger
11-26-2010, 06:49 PM
According to Marc Stein, the Raps plan to trade or buy out Peja closer to the trade deadline. Between his expiring contract and the TPE, it will be interesting to see what BC will do:

http://espn.go.com/nba/dailydime/_/page/dime-101126-28/latest-trade-chatter

The overwhelming sense in Toronto, according to multiple parties consulted, is that Peja Stojakovic is more likely to leave the Raptors by trade rather than buyout before the deadline.

At least that's the Raps' plan.

Yet if no follow-up swap materializes before Feb. 24 involving Stojakovic's $15 million expiring contract, he's a virtual lock to be bought out by the Raps before March 1, which would enable Peja to take his forever-dangerous J -- Dallas watched him ring up a quick 17 points in just 19 minutes this month -- to the contender of his choosing for the stretch run.

Raptors president Bryan Colangelo has already publicly acknowledged the buyout scenario and left the clear impression that he'll work with Stojakovic on a mutually beneficial parting when the time comes. One of the likely reasons: Without Stojakovic's cooperation in waiving $437,470 of a $1,215,953 trade kicker to make the salary-cap math work in the deal with New Orleans co-headlined by Jarrett Jack, Toronto couldn't have completed a trade that brought young Jerryd Bayless to Canada ... and finally rid the Raptors of Marcus Banks.

MyNameIsJonas
11-26-2010, 06:59 PM
I can see a trade for Iguadala.

MyNameIsJonas
11-26-2010, 08:42 PM
Am i the only one who cannot stand Matt Devlin?...Why does he insist on referring to the raptors players by first names?...

Sonny....to Andrea...to Jose.....goood


Horrible

MindzEye
11-26-2010, 08:47 PM
ME likes to act like some basketball god know-it-all.. it gets a bit annoying, especially when he's clearly wrong about nearly everything he says.

What have I been wrong about?

MindzEye
11-26-2010, 09:02 PM
The Raptors fanbase is definitely divided on Bargnani and always has been, but your hate-on for the guy is getting more and more absurd by the day. I expect it from 12-year olds on Real GM, not from a smart guy like you. You dislike the player, we get it.

I get jumped on for not being a blind homer....I really, really would like someone to show me something I've said about Bargnani that isn't true. I dislike the guy's game...yes, but that's hardly a hate on. I've used arguments, both structural and statistical to show that he's horrifically over rated by certain people on here (oddly, at least 3 of those people are Italian). I've never fabricated any part of my arguments about him, I've always used relevant statistics to back up my opinions. Am I passionate about my opinion? Sure, same way I am when I talk Leafs, politics, etc, etc, etc. If I think I'm right, I'll defend it...but I've shown the ability on numerous issues to change my mind if I see evidence for it (most recently, I've back tracked on Grabovski, for example)


As a Raptors fan, try to take at least a little pleasure in winning some games. As you know, because it's been debated here many times, tanking does not guarantee anything in professional sports. I'm not interested in sitting through a 8-74 season just because of the draft lottery, in a year when many players are not going to declare anyways because of labour uncertainty.

Tanking is no guarantee, agreed. The NBA is a bit different than the NHL though, where a properly managed tank usually means a 2-3 year turnaround. You have to be really inept and draft like shit in the NBA for a 2-3 year tank to not work.

I would rather tank than run a bad team out there that isn't bad enough to get the top talent you need to compete though...which is just where we are.


Your claim of this being a classic treadmill team is erroneous, because there are already so many young players. Nothing is guaranteed, but if at least 2 or 3 of DeRozan, Weems, Bayless, Davis and Amir progress to their potential, this is going to be a very interesting team.

No, it's really not. Not a single one of those players you mention profiles to be more than decent starter at this point. DeRozan has by far the most talent of the group and without a jump shot, he'll turn into Desmond Mason. Amir might turn into a decent 14/8 starting PF...Davis, nobody really knows yet but he's never profiled to be more than a strong defender/rebounder...think Charles Oakley at best....Bayless is a classic tweener, lacking the ability to run the point well, and the size to play the 2. Interesting bench guy maybe, but nothing more.


And did you really claim that Bargnani is stealing touches from a SG? Come on man.

He's a centre, who gets his touches at the perimeter. Either you run a heavy perimeter oriented system (basically, not running any of your offence through the post) or you're spreading out touches between interior and perimeter players. This isn't rocket science. There's one ball to go around and you should try to balance out where your shots come from. If your centre is taking perimeter touches, who is taking post touches? Who are you running the ball through in the low blocks to try to get a defence to collapse down and open up lanes for cutters, reversing the ball for open looks?


Bargnani is not going to lead a team to a championship by himself, but he can be a starter on a high-end team, absolutely.

Find me a contending team...any contending team who had a big who rebounded as poor as he does and played ~35 minutes.

TimHorton
11-26-2010, 09:12 PM
Don't you know ME the Raps are winning at an unbelievable rate.......

MindzEye
11-26-2010, 09:21 PM
Down by 15 to the Celtics in the 3rd Q right now, and Reggie Evans has left the game with an ankle injury. Hopefully not for too long, we need someone to get the easy rebounds Bargnani leaves for his bigs.

Montana
11-26-2010, 09:27 PM
Hopefully for the season......Raps need losses, not wins.

MyNameIsJonas
11-26-2010, 09:53 PM
Bargs doesnt even make attempts for defensive rebounds out there...is insistant on letting Amir do the work and to boot doenst box out KG either.....

wiseguy1
11-26-2010, 10:31 PM
But Banana gets more rebounds than usual, 8, and the team loses.
:shrug

MindzEye
11-26-2010, 10:52 PM
The Celtics are just a better team. We out rebounded the Celts, but when you turn the ball over 17 times, and give up as many points in the paint as we did, you're going to have a hard time winning.

Garnett rolls back the clock with a 26/11 performance against the guy who's apparently not afraid to play against Garnett.


EFF

Weems- -5 (yeah, that's a -5)
Evans- 9
Bargnani- 9
DeRozan- 8
Calderon- 29 (big game for Jose, props)
Barbosa - 14
Amir- 10
Bayless - 9
Kleiza - 14
Peja - 12


Notable Celts

Garnett - 32
Pierce - 19
Rondo - 13
Shaq - 26
Allen - 25
Baby - 16

Fitzgerald#11
11-26-2010, 11:37 PM
broken foot for Evans....

da_next_kid
11-27-2010, 12:03 AM
Why did they only play Peja for 16 minutes, Triano is a clown. He's probably the best wing this team has, he's been hampered with injuries but this guy is still the 4th leading 3pt shooter in the history of the NBA and looks healthy.

mbow30
11-27-2010, 12:36 AM
was anybody else excited by some of the things we saw from bayliss tonight? i only caught part of the second but he came up with some good stops on rondo defensively, and was giving him some trouble off the bounce. looks like he could turn out to be an excellent find. he brings a nice change of pace to calderon.. and let's not forget that he got stuck behind a couple of good PG's in miller and paul, so he really hasn't been given a fair shot to develop his game.

he has a lot of potential, i think. not sure if he has the spot up jumper...yet... let's not forget--jose didn't develop one until he was 25 or 26 and bayliss is just 22.

mbow30
11-27-2010, 12:39 AM
as for tonight's game.. they kept battling back, which was nice to see, and the second unit stepped up big time, even when paired against the celts starters.

overall, though, it's tough to complain. for the second straight game they put up 100 against the celts. they didn't get the stops but the didn't give up, either. so there were still a lot of positives to take out of this one.

MindzEye
11-27-2010, 01:02 AM
Problem with Bayless is that he's never found anything resembling a consistent stroke in the NBA and he's never had NBA level distribution talent, he was a mediocre ball distributor in the NCAA, and he's been flat out nightmarish so far in the NBA in that regard.

He was a solid scorer in the NCAA, so I would be surprised to see his stroke sort itself out at the NBA level...but something that we have to remember is that he wasn't "stuck" anywhere before coming to Toronto...he was given legitimate backup minutes in both stops and he played his way out of those situations.

He might be able to develop into a legitimate rotation piece that can defend the point decently and provide some offence off of the bench (think, Juan Dixon), but I wouldn't expect much more from him than that.

mbow30
11-27-2010, 01:24 AM
thing is, he can attack the basket like a guy like dixon could only dream of doing. he's way, way, way faster than dixon, too.

he handles the ball very well with speed, and isn't afraid to attack the basket. that's a good combination. he needs to work on distributing. and like any young player needs to learn to pick his spots better. but he just turned 22!

i take issue with you saying he wasn't stuck in the situations he was in. playing behind two prototypical pass-first pg's, one of whom will play 40+ on any given night is hardly an ideal situation for a guy like bayliss -- who left college after his freshman year, and was always a scorer-before-passer.

by virtue of those team's styles he was asked to be more of a distributor than he's accustomed to being. and he just didn't get adequate minutes to round out his offensive game.

i think you're just being pessimistic here, ME. he made rondo look downright silly a couple of times, and at both ends of the court.

one game, yeah, i know... and he's always been toolsy, but in my opinion we've seen some encouraging signs from him.

MindzEye
11-27-2010, 01:43 AM
YouTube - Michael Jordan on Lebron James(MashUp)

Montana
11-27-2010, 01:48 AM
F*ck I love the internet.

MindzEye
11-27-2010, 01:48 AM
He was playing 12-15 mpg in both situations, and at his size and ability, he better learn to be a distributor.

He was given opportunities to impress in both cities and fired up an ugly shooting percentage and an uglier A/TO.

He made a half injured Rondo look bad a few times, yeah, but call me when he stops shooting 57% from the field and we see who he really is. When we have a reasonable amount of court time to properly evaluate him, because I have no plans on getting excited over a guy without the ability to distribute at the point, and lacking the size to play the 2.

It just screams bench player...if he finds his niche he might become a nice bench player, but I just don't see where his skills are going to put him into a starting role. 22 isn't that young in the NBA man, this isn't the NHL...if you aren't showing definite signs of making some sort of an impact by 22 in the NBA, you're probably not going to.

axlsalinger
11-27-2010, 04:34 AM
Tanking is no guarantee, agreed. The NBA is a bit different than the NHL though, where a properly managed tank usually means a 2-3 year turnaround. You have to be really inept and draft like shit in the NBA for a 2-3 year tank to not work.While I wouldn't argue that it isn't possible to turn things around quickly in the NBA, a 2-3 year turnaround would be the exception, rather than the norm, unless you already have several good pieces in place. The NBA has its perpetually rebuilding teams (Clippers, Minnesota, Memphis, Charlotte, Indiana, just off the top of my head) just like the NHL does.


No, it's really not. Not a single one of those players you mention profiles to be more than decent starter at this point. DeRozan has by far the most talent of the group and without a jump shot, he'll turn into Desmond Mason. Amir might turn into a decent 14/8 starting PF...Davis, nobody really knows yet but he's never profiled to be more than a strong defender/rebounder...think Charles Oakley at best....Bayless is a classic tweener, lacking the ability to run the point well, and the size to play the 2. Interesting bench guy maybe, but nothing more.The jury is still out on Bayless. Have read some stuff lately about how people were equally high on him and Westbrook coming into the draft. Westbrook has been good for 2 years, but didn't break out into a star until this year. Your suggestion that Bayless is too old at 22 to still become an effective NBA point guard is just silly. He could have stayed in school and he'd still be there. To say he's had ample opportunity in the NBA is ridiculous as well, he's played on two half-court offences, and hasn't been on a team that wants to get out and run, nor has he had the minutes to develop (12.4, 17.6 MPG in Portland, 13.5 MPG this year in New Orleans). And playing backup point guard to Chris frickin' Paul isn't exactly a place where any young point guard could possibly get enough minutes to really do a whole lot. He could still become an all-star. He could just as easily be a weak-shooting tweener who will never be more than a journeyman backup combo guard. Like I said, the jury's still out.

DeRozan, Bayless, Amir are still young and talented enough for further progression in their games. We just don't know yet. Even Sonny, while it's unlikely, could still become a much better player. He's already progressed quite a bit. And Ed Davis, who knows. He hasn't played a minute yet, but was expected to be a top 10 pick in the draft.


He's a centre, who gets his touches at the perimeter. Either you run a heavy perimeter oriented system (basically, not running any of your offence through the post) or you're spreading out touches between interior and perimeter players. This isn't rocket science.Every team wants to have at least one guard, and at least one big, who can score the basketball. Every. Single. Team. Your point makes absolutely no sense.

axlsalinger
11-27-2010, 04:35 AM
But Banana gets more rebounds than usual, 8, and the team loses.
:shrugI don't think anyone thought the Raps would beat an angry Celtics team who just lost to us, and had Rondo back in the lineup. I'm surprised we kept it as close as we did.

Preston_Mizzi
11-27-2010, 11:01 AM
Garnett on the worst player in the league that no team will ever win a championship with:



“I don’t overlook a guy. Bargnani’s a very, very, very good player in our league. He’s going to be one of the premier players to come. But, I was motivated in more than one way tonight.”

zeke
11-27-2010, 01:04 PM
seriously? Mindzeye has lowered himself to crowing during a 9-pt loss on the road to one of the best teams in the league? heh.

especially since we pounded them on the boards even without much from Reggie.

poor guy.



While Bargs and Weems struggled offensively, and Weems was just abused in every way by Pierce in this one, I think the real difference between this game and last game was that while last time Bargs abused Big Baby whenever Shaq was off, this time Baby had a game, and not only played some great defense on Bargs but was hitting from range as well.

At least Calderon won his matchip against the Great Rondo (well, as great as a guy can be who can't sink an open J to save his life).

Nice to see our bench continue to be strong - that's going to be what keeps us in games against teams like this with clearly superior starting lineups.

Overall, nice to see the raps hang in there even though the Celts were clearly juiced for this one, and clearly intent on teaching the raps a lesson for that last game.....but as much as they tried to land the knockout punch, the raps hung in there. not bad.

zeke
11-27-2010, 01:06 PM
Oh, and I take back the Bayless-Jack comparison - I like Bayless better already. He's already shown he knows how to run an offense and get his teamates the ball where they like it, better than jack ever did.

mbow30
11-27-2010, 04:36 PM
Oh, and I take back the Bayless-Jack comparison - I like Bayless better already. He's already shown he knows how to run an offense and get his teamates the ball where they like it, better than jack ever did.

i love how quick he is. the raps haven't had that sort of quickness at the point since stoudamire, really. maybe bogues but he was pretty old by the time he was here.

MindzEye
11-27-2010, 07:37 PM
The sad thing is that you consider what I did "crowing"

axlsalinger
11-28-2010, 05:22 AM
Heat lose to the Mavs, now 9-8. This is going well.

YouTube - Lebron bumping coach Spoelstra vs Mavs 11/27/10

sensbk
11-28-2010, 11:37 AM
Oh my God what a piece of garbage.

He's really does believe he's above everybody.

Preston_Mizzi
11-28-2010, 01:52 PM
bargo has been awesome early in this game.. only reason they're winning right now for sure.

JaysCyYoung
11-28-2010, 02:26 PM
Did LeBron have a father growing up? The absence of someone to kick his arrogant ass is probably a big reason why he is the way he is today. You never saw Michael act that way.

axlsalinger
11-28-2010, 02:30 PM
Let's not pretend Michael Jordan is some kind of role model as a human being. Unbelievably great basketball player, but one of the biggest arrogant *******s of all time.

JaysCyYoung
11-28-2010, 02:34 PM
Michael Jordan never disrespected his coach's or opponents like that. He could talk trash with the best of him but you never saw him pull a stunt like that. No need to defend King Airhead here.

mbow30
11-28-2010, 03:00 PM
Jordan is an arrogant prick, and not a particularly nice person but he had personal ethic and was always... ALWAYS... self accountable. when the bulls lost games in Jordan's mind it wasn't in spite of him, it was because he wasn't good enough.

I totally get why Lebron's head is so far up his ass. nobody, in the history of professional sports, has endured the media spotlight as intensely as James has, at an age as young as he has. The closest comparable is Crosby and that wasn't even because of the media hype machine: it was because Wayne Gretzky watched him at 14 and was floored. And even still, while the Brissons, Winters and other hockey agent heavyweights certainly made overtures to the Crosby family he didn't have Nike representatives knocking at his door to offer him a $90mn contract on his 18th b-day; he didn't have hanger-ons wanting to grab a slice of his pie. He didn't have faux-friends and 'handlers' cozying up to him, whispering in his ear how great he was, how much better he was than everybody else, how limitless the sky was for him.

Lebron is totally detached from reality because he has always been allowed to be.

With that said, at some point you need to say to yourself 'I'm 25 years old and need to grow up.' Lebron hasn't. So as much as it wasn't his fault that he was allowed to grow up into a 6'8 man-child, it's totally his fault that his head continues to be embedded so far up his ass.

He's a total douchebag. He's a stain on the sport of basketball, which is a shame because talent-wise he may well be the best player of all time.

Preston_Mizzi
11-28-2010, 03:01 PM
Bayless > ME

mbow30
11-28-2010, 03:24 PM
yeah, i don't get it ME... i understand that he has some holes in his game and some question marks -- and he could well become a tweener -- but you have to like his ability to take the ball to the basket.

provided he develops a jumper, if he doesn't become a distributor then we could be looking at a borbosa-type. that isn't a bad thing at all.

of course, bayliss is faster than borbosa.

his ability to get the ball to the basket is just damn good. he's great off the bounce. the raps haven't had that sort of dimension in a long time.

HabsFan1
11-28-2010, 05:14 PM
Bargs non-willingness to get his nose dirty today against the hawks was horrible. This team is not going to be a great team until they that true starting center so bargs can play PF.

Preston_Mizzi
11-28-2010, 05:54 PM
I think the perimeter d was the main reason for the loss today.. which makes me extremely confused as to why Triano refused to give Bayless proper minutes. He's the best perimeter d I've seen on this team in years.

axlsalinger
11-28-2010, 07:59 PM
http://www.torontosun.com/sports/basketball/2010/11/28/16350356.html

Carlesimo a Bayless believer

When the Raptors acquired Jerryd Bayless from the New Orleans Hornets last week, one of the happiest people on the team’s staff was assistant coach P.J. Carlesimo.

Carlesimo and Bayless have a history.

When Carlesimo was coaching the Oklahoma City Thunder, the team worked out a number of top prospects prior to selecting Russell Westbrook with the fourth selection of the 2008 draft.

While Westbrook has emerged as one of the top young players in the entire league – he went off for a career-best 43 points on Friday and is averaging almost 24 points a game – Carlesimo says the Thunder thought long and hard about taking Bayless – who fell to 11th in the draft - instead.

“We liked him then. He was very high on our list,” Carlesimo said after Raptors practice on Saturday.

“It wasn’t a courtesy workout, we really agonized over that whole decision. I was impressed with him then.”

Carlesimo said Bayless still has a bright future.

“I think he’s established himself as a credible player right now and he’s still very young. He’s only going to get better.”

Bayless hasn’t had the same opportunities to show what he can do and might not have the ceiling of players like Westbrook, No. 3 overall pick O.J. Mayo, No. 5 Kevin Love or No. 7 Eric Gordon, but he is a good fit with the Raptors.

“The thing I like about him is he plays both ends of the floor,” Carlesimo continued.

“He can guard people, particularly quicker people and he’s not afraid to take the ball to the basket, so he kind of brings some other dimensions too. It’s a good complement to what we have already.”

Bayless has picked things up quickly in Toronto. Though he is not yet ready to fully run the offence, he is getting increasingly comfortable with the playbook and has had a positive impact, averaging 10 points, three rebounds and three assists in two games.

axlsalinger
11-29-2010, 04:03 PM
Ed Davis has been recalled from the D-League and will play in the Raps next game, Wednesday against Washington. Will be interesting to see what he can do.

mbow30
11-29-2010, 07:12 PM
now lebron's 'handlers' are giving spoelstra shit.

**** these idiots.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Relationship-between-LeBron-and-coach-gets-chill;_ylt=AsyWRN2uU_ZtWG5OaTV_MrE5nYcB?urn=nba-290079


"He's jumping on them," one source said. "If anything, he's been too tough on them. Everybody knows LeBron is playful and likes to joke around, but Spoelstra told him in front of the whole team that he has to get more serious. The players couldn't believe it. They feel like Spoelstra's not letting them be themselves."

now we know where 'we just want to chill...' comes from. bosh is such a loser.

Metalleaf
11-29-2010, 07:21 PM
Goddamn spoiled brats

JaysCyYoung
11-29-2010, 08:36 PM
If they couldn't bounce a ball they'd be waiting tables at the local country club or pumping gas down at the local Save-and-Go.

eason97
12-01-2010, 12:27 AM
King James wants Spoelstra to bow to him
Adrian Wojnarowski

Erik Spoelstra reached out to Mike Brown over the summer and searched for insight into both basketball’s blessing and curse: Coaching the two-time MVP LeBron James

Over and over, Brown uprooted his offensive system to appease James only to have it never work. Brown praised James’ character publicly when he would’ve preferred to have been truthful about James’ narcissism. James defied Brown in public and private, disregarded his play calls to freelance his offense, and belittled him without consequence within the Cleveland Cavaliers.
Erik Spoelstra's efforts to hold LeBron James accountable have been met with resistance.

Meticulous in his preparation, Spoelstra spoke with several past coaches, and league sources said a clear and unequivocal picture appeared on how to proceed: End the cycle of enabling with James and hold him accountable.

And surprise, surprise: LeBron James has responded with a test of his own organizational strength, pushing to see how far the Heat will bend to his will. This season, James is hearing a word seldom uttered to him in Cleveland: “No.” And it keeps coming out of the coach’s mouth, keeps getting between the King and what he wants.

Can I stay overnight to party in New Orleans after a preseason game?

Can I play the clown in practice?

Can I get out of playing point guard?

No. No. No.

Wait, what?

No, LeBron.

No.

Even within a month of the season’s sideways 9-8 start, the NBA witnessed a predictable play out of the James-Maverick Carter playbook on Monday morning. They planted a story and exposed themselves again as jokers of the highest order. They care so little about anyone but themselves. Still, no one’s surprised that they’d stoop so low, so fast into this supposed historic 73-victory season and NBA Finals sweep of the Los Angeles Lakers. They want Spoelstra – and Pat Riley – to bend to them, to bow to the King the way everyone has before them.

Nevertheless, here’s what was surprising – even troubling – when the Heat talked on Monday before a victory over the Washington Wizards: In the blink of an eye, Dwyane Wade(notes) signed up with Team LeBron to scapegoat and sell out Spoelstra.

“I’m not going to say he’s ‘my guy,’ but he’s my coach,” Wade said.

Wade’s always been loyal, and that’s why it was so surprising to witness him bail this fast on Spoelstra, whom Wade knows too well. Spoelstra is a good NBA coach. Everyone knows that Wade isn’t a star who plays hard all the time, knows that he takes plays off on defense. They know that Spoelstra did a terrific job coaching 90 victories out of that flawed Miami roster the previous two seasons.

As much as ever, the Heat need Wade to influence James. Only now, it’s clear James is influencing Wade. With Udonis Haslem(notes) out for the regular season, the locker room misses one of its vital voices. Now, Wade is struggling on the floor and James is the devil on his shoulder, whispering that he doesn’t need to be accountable, that there’s an easy fall guy for everyone: Spoelstra.

Those who know Wade well, who care about him, were disappointed Monday. When Spoelstra needed Wade to stand up for him, Wade never shrunk so small. Spoelstra was Wade’s guy, but Wade’s finding it much easier to align himself with James’ coward act than do the right thing. This was something that you’d expect out of Chris Bosh, who’s never been a leader, never a winner, but Wade?

“He knows better than this,” one of Wade’s former assistant coaches said. “I’m not saying he hasn’t changed some, but he knows right from wrong. And this is wrong.”

The fundamental problem for Spoelstra isn’t that James doesn’t respect coaches – he doesn’t respect people. Give LeBron this, though: He’s learned to live one way with the television light on, and another with it off. He treats everyone like a servant, because that’s what the system taught him as a teenage prodigy. To James, the coach isn’t there to mold him into the team dynamic. He’s there to serve him.

Wade was one of the Team USA players who’d watch incredulously as James would throw a bowl of fries back at a renowned chef and bark, “They’re cold!” Or throw his sweaty practice jersey across the court and command a team administrator to go pick it up. Everyone wants James to grow out of it, but he’s never showed much of an inclination for self-examination and improvement. And he’s never surrounded himself with people who’d push him to do so.

What’s more, the timing of this leak was no accident, because James and his business manager had to like the idea of someone else going on trial this week. When the public wanted to talk about James’ return to Cleveland, about the callous way with which he left, about the disjointed start in Miami, they thrust everything onto Spoelstra.

Part of them believed they could deflect Hell Week at home in Ohio, and part of them probably believed they could indeed align the public with them against Spoelstra.

After all, the coach had it coming to him. Of this, LeBron James was sure. Spoelstra had the audacity to do something that Mike Brown never had ownership’s backing to do in Cleveland: To push James, call him out, coach him.

The funniest part had to be how they leaked the idea that Erik Spoelstra was panicking now, behaving like he feared for his job. Truth be told, he’s been behaving in the opposite way. Spoelstra isn’t running from LeBron, but running at him.

Someone’s scared here, but it isn’t the coach.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=ArjlCM718H94vfmXMLVUVOC8vLYF?slug=aw-lebronspoelstra112910

Metalleaf
12-01-2010, 09:24 AM
NBGay

JaysCyYoung
12-01-2010, 12:56 PM
Great article. Glad to see that someone is finally demanding accountability from that arrogant, overpaid, man-child whiner whose never won anything.

zeke
12-01-2010, 12:59 PM
the Ed Davis Era begins tonight!

kinghabs
12-01-2010, 02:31 PM
Adrian Wojnarowski has written some great articles, and this is one of them.

Spoelstra is the man for standing up to James. Even if he does lose his job this season, I would love to see James act like the lil brat that he is with Pat Riley.

da_next_kid
12-01-2010, 02:51 PM
Adrian Wojnarowski has written some great articles, and this is one of them.


http://operachic.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451c83e69e20115710737c8970b-400wi

axlsalinger
12-01-2010, 02:55 PM
Bit of a surprising answer from Hollinger during his chat today.

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/35793

Warren (TN)

Best candidate for "bad eastern team that makes a surprising run at .500 and sneaks into the playoffs"? 1. Washington 2. Philly 3. Toronto 4. New Jersey 5. Charloette

John Hollinger
(2:46 PM)

Toronto. All my metrics say they're better than their record and could easily make the playoffs, although the one time I saw the in person (at Portland) it was one of the worst games I've ever seen. Plus, f they're close I think Colangelo will try to add players at the deadline.

mbow30
12-01-2010, 04:35 PM
the raptors are a team on the cusp. and i'm not just trying to be optimistic.. the team is better than its record indicates. they have beaten the top two teams in the east (boston, orlando), and only four of their losses have been by more than 10 points.

the raptors aren't easy matchup. with evans in the lineup they're a physical bunch, pretty good on the glass, and force their opponents to work with their speed and ability to attack the rim.

this isn't a great team by any stretch but they don't bend over easily. a handful of their losses could very easily have swung the other way..

zeke
12-01-2010, 04:39 PM
a lot depends on exactly how good the two kids on the wing are right now.

and they're up and down like crazy.

zeke
12-01-2010, 07:35 PM
the ed davis era off to a fast start. a very quick couple of putbacks at the offensive end, and a block and a board on the back end, in his first couple of career minutes.

zeke
12-01-2010, 07:49 PM
vicious dunk from bargs. that was sweet. and follows up with a sweet driving layup and a jumper. 6pts and a board within 2 minutes.

zeke
12-01-2010, 08:19 PM
wow. best half of raps I've ever seen. that was fun.

Metalleaf
12-01-2010, 08:20 PM
Eric Smith
700th game for THE RAPTOR tonight. Wow. Best mascot in the NBA. 16 years - same guy holdin' it down.

axlsalinger
12-01-2010, 09:06 PM
The Raptors are WAAAY more entertaining than the Leafs.

Hoss
12-01-2010, 09:09 PM
Good article in the Star today about Bargs....

Great game by him tonight as well... He really looks alot more confident with the ball.. making some good post up moves and tall fade aways

zeke
12-01-2010, 11:15 PM
since the trade:


J.Bayliss (22): 18.0mpg, 11.0ppg (48.0fg/55.6tp/78.9ft), 3.3apg/1.5to, 4.3rpg (Raps 2-2)
J.Jack (27): 12.7mpg, 3.8ppg (25.9fg/25.0tp/100.0ft), 1.7apg/1.0to, 1.5rpg (Hornets 2-4)


thank you very much, New Orleans.

Preston_Mizzi
12-02-2010, 12:45 AM
Poor ME

mbow30
12-02-2010, 01:34 AM
bayliss looked really, really good tonight.

washington stinks, but there was a lot to like in this one. our rookie big man made a pretty impressive debut -- he was basically the anti-bosh, working hard on the offensive glass and blocking a couple of shots. nothing wrong with 11 pts, 6 boards off the bench.. 5-7 shooting.

dorsey and barbosa gave them some quality minutes off the bench.. and weems, bargnani and derozan were all clicking tonight (this is a tough team to stop when those three are working).

and the new 2-headed monster at point had a very nice game, collectively.

13 assists, just 3 turnovers, 11/16 shooting, 3/5 from 3. gotta like that.

axlsalinger
12-02-2010, 03:42 AM
since the trade:


J.Bayliss (22): 18.0mpg, 11.0ppg (48.0fg/55.6tp/78.9ft), 3.3apg/1.5to, 4.3rpg (Raps 2-2)
J.Jack (27): 12.7mpg, 3.8ppg (25.9fg/25.0tp/100.0ft), 1.7apg/1.0to, 1.5rpg (Hornets 2-4)


thank you very much, New Orleans.Good trade for both teams. They needed a vet behind Chris Paul, and brought in one of his best friends at the same time. We've got the far better situation for Bayless to develop in.

I am getting more and more intrigued with that kid every game.

axlsalinger
12-02-2010, 05:39 PM
LeBron James returns to Cleveland tonight, 8:00pm EST on TSN2.

Miami played last night, at home, then had to fly to Cleveland, arriving very late after airplane problems.

Seems to me like Cleveland should be able to beat them, but it will definitely be an interesting spectacle regardless.

Guess tonight is also Dany Heatley's first game back in Ottawa? It's Hate Night everywhere!

Hoss
12-02-2010, 05:57 PM
I'm going to pvr that game... I also so badly want Cleveland to win.

Every player already raises their game when playing against Miami... but Cleveland guys should be able to put all individual efforts aside and do anything to win.

hockeylover
12-02-2010, 08:42 PM
Chants so far "*******", and "Akron hates you".

axlsalinger
12-02-2010, 08:49 PM
The problem with this game is that the Cleveland roster is godawful, without LeBron. Hopefully they can stay in it though, long enough for the fans to bend James' will with their hate.

Fitzgerald#11
12-02-2010, 09:30 PM
i was pumped to watch untill horrible memories came back seeing Moon trying to guard Lebron while hoisting up 3s on the other hand

drewser
12-03-2010, 02:07 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmCmHGZxVsw

leafman101
12-03-2010, 02:12 PM
Thats amazing.

Fitzgerald#11
12-03-2010, 09:12 PM
this team looks so different to the one that started the year. now that everyone has their role set they just look so comfortable out there.

axlsalinger
12-03-2010, 09:36 PM
Another awesome game for the Raps.

Numbers sure to confuse and confound our good friend M.E.:

Andrea Bargnani's rebound totals since The Reginator has been out:

8-7-8-12

JaysCyYoung
12-03-2010, 09:50 PM
Close to 9 boards a game average. If he keeps up his scoring totals the Raps will win their fair share of games with Il Mago making an impact on the glass like that.