PDA

View Full Version : OT: The Official Toronto Raptors Thread



Pages : [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131

hockeylover
12-11-2007, 10:30 PM
Woah, did anyone watch the Raptors game tonight? I just saw the highlights and looks like Ford hit his head on the floor after being fouled by the Hawks player. He went off on a stretcher and was taken to an Atlanta hospital.

Any word on how he's doing?? Was anyone watching it?

Metalleaf
12-11-2007, 10:34 PM
Yeah I saw the hilights that was absolutely brutal and difficult to watch. Sam Mitchell looked like he was really worried too. I hope he's okay, but it doesn't look good.

zeke
12-11-2007, 10:35 PM
if he reinjures that neck, this could be bad.

Fitzgerald#11
12-11-2007, 10:37 PM
yup. gotta hope its just a concussion and not the neck again.

Metalleaf
12-11-2007, 10:39 PM
The Raps just can't get any good luck. They had all of their players in the line-up for about one half.

axlsalinger
12-11-2007, 10:53 PM
Yeah, I saw it happen. Really unpleasant thing to watch. Horford delivered a flagrant foul, I don't believe there was any intent to injure, but he'll probably be suspended a couple of games.

From what some players were saying in the post-game interviews, TJ did have movement and was conscious. He was in pain and was panicking a little bit.

An announcer later said that they were debating whether to keep him in hospital overnight, or have him fly back to Toronto with the team. This is very encouraging news. Although in the end, they did decide to keep him in hospital overnight. I hope he's alright.

Killer93
12-11-2007, 10:58 PM
Looks like Calderon will get more playing time. I hope Ford is okay. :(

Hoss
12-11-2007, 10:58 PM
saw it as well... I know many people (myself included) that go into a mini state of shock when they bump their head hard.... limbs go stiff and eyes roll back in the head... (scared the crap out of my parents many a time)...

Let's hope that is exactly what it is.

MindzEye
12-11-2007, 11:02 PM
Thank god he's alright
Thank god the Raps have the best 1-2 point god combo in the association

hairnova
12-11-2007, 11:04 PM
Ford can't stay healthy, it's too bad. Him and Calderon make a solid one-two punch at the point.

Killer93
12-11-2007, 11:10 PM
Good lord I just the replay on TSN. Poor guy was in tears and freaking out but good news is he had feeling in both his lower and upper body. Hopefully he has just a minor concussion.

Kumite
12-11-2007, 11:12 PM
Best of luck to TJ.

Bermygoon
12-12-2007, 08:46 AM
Lets all hope and pray his rap career is not affected.

JackBurton
12-12-2007, 12:44 PM
Ford can't stay healthy, it's too bad. Him and Calderon make a solid one-two punch at the point.

At least Charlie V. can't either.

soco22
12-12-2007, 12:59 PM
To bring up another topic, as Calderon could soon be gone, due to his expiring contract.

Who would you rather keep?

hairnova
12-12-2007, 01:19 PM
To bring up another topic, as Calderon could soon be gone, due to his expiring contract.

Who would you rather keep?

Calderon, he's a better all-around player and doesn't get hurt as often.

MindzEye
12-12-2007, 01:53 PM
Ford. Redonkulous upside, the potential to turn into an Isiah Thomas, Steve Nash type point guard.

You don't give that up.


With that said though, Colangelo should be able to get Calderon signed to a very reasonable 4-5 year deal.

madvillain
12-12-2007, 02:29 PM
Option C: rather not choose, keep 'em both.

zeke
12-12-2007, 03:27 PM
I'd trade Ford.

Calderon is more the kind of PG I like. He resembles the PGs I like best more than Ford. He's just got the better basketball brain, IMO.

Ford has got great skills, but if we can trade him for a wingman with great skills, I'd rather have those great skills at that position than at the point.

Hoss
12-12-2007, 03:30 PM
I think that will be the outcome... I think Colangelo will make it sweet for Jose to stay, and I also think that they way they handle the Garbo situation can determine alot of things.

When the deal comes up, you won't have the dead weight that is Joey and even Martin.... those two alone could be sent away... and replaced by rookie contracts... then the rest of the money adds on to Calderon's deal.

PlayerToBeNamedLater
12-12-2007, 03:30 PM
Calderon is a RFA at the end of the year. So, he's not going anywhere even if he wanted too.

You wont have to choose between the two PG's.

zeke
12-12-2007, 03:35 PM
The Raps aren't good enough that they can afford to have two above average starting PGs on their roster.

It just doesn't make sense - it's a nice luxury and all, but it would make much more sense to move one of them and get a potential all-star at another position.

PlayerToBeNamedLater
12-12-2007, 03:41 PM
Combined, Ford and Calderon provide the Raps with top 3 PG play. If you have a top 3 PG on your roster, you would be paying him a salary close to what both Ford and Calderon will be earning combined.

MindzEye
12-12-2007, 04:06 PM
The Raps have a bunch of capspace coming up in the summer of 09 and their core is locked up for quite some time. The only positional needs are a banger/shot blocker off the bench and an athletic 2/3 who can hit the outside jumper.

I think it's a better idea to pick up both in free agency before we have to extend Bargnani so we can use the Bird rule and go over the cap. Then it's all about tinkering with the team by using the MLE & LLE to compliment a core of

Bargnani
Bosh
Moon
Star 2 guard (Gordon, Iverson, Magette, Iguodala, Artest, & Arenas could potentially be available)
Ford

Calderon
Banger PF/C (could even be Humphries, he's young with some upside left on the table, but Wilcox, Varejo, R Wallace, Biedrins,& Jeff Foster could be available)
Parker
Kapono

I think you definitely have to sign Calderon long term, and look into trading him him 1-2 seasons into the new deal, hopefully after we've brought in a young #3 point guard who can grow into an above average backup.

zeke
12-12-2007, 04:43 PM
I think we could move Ford + Graham + 1 of Parker/Delfino/Kapono/Dixon for an all-star calibre swingman and a serviceable backup PG.....and we'd be a real contender NOW.....without changing our cap situation.

then, when we have the capspace, we go and sign the one thing that's hardest to find in the NBA - a quality genuine physical post player, and then we're one of the best teams in the league.

I guess it depends on how good you think Calderon is - and I happen to think he's very, very good. As a full time starter, I have little doubt he'd be dropping 15 and 10 AT LEAST, and probably more like 18/12, which makes him one of the better PGs in the league.

MindzEye
12-12-2007, 04:48 PM
I see it the opposite, I would keep Ford, not Calderon if I was forced to pick one. I don't think Calderon would do much more than 14/8 over the course of a full 82 game sched. Which is very, very good, but I think Ford can be the 18/12 type.

mbow30
12-12-2007, 04:58 PM
Yeah, I was just about to say that.

Calderon hasn't shown much big-play high-scoring potential.

He's a great PG and I think he's better than Ford at protecting the rock but he isn't capable of big high scoring efforts like Ford is. When Bosh is out or struggling Ford has proven that he can step in and produce like a primary option. Calderon hasn't come close to showing that with any sort of consistency.

axlsalinger
12-12-2007, 05:05 PM
If I had to pick one, I'd keep Ford. He has the potential to become an all-star PG, and is still only 24. That being said, Calderon has been fantastic for us and he isn't a big-ego guy, he doesn't seem to care about starting or money as much as he wants to win and feel comfortable.

Now obviously he's not stupid either, he can't turn down millions but I think Colangelo can and will find a way to keep him financially.

I don't know that we need to try to find an all-star swingman, since Ford, Bosh and in the long-term Bargnani all have elite-level talent. Obviously every team would like to have a guard who can create their own shot and shoot at a high percentage.

Trading Calderon is intriguing, of course, because he can start right now for a number of teams and has good trade value, so I suppose it depends on the offer. But then again, trading any player in the league depends on the offer.

zeke
12-12-2007, 05:07 PM
If we're talking about potential, I can see Ford becoming a 22/10 guy, actually.

here's their per-48 minutes stats from this year and last:

this year:

Ford: 26.1ppg (48.7%fg, 27.3%3p, 85.4%ft)), 12.5apg, 2.8a/to
Calderon: 18.8ppg (51.4%fg, 45.2%3p, 91.7%ft), 14.4apg, 6.0a/to

last year:

Ford: 22.4ppg (43.6%fg, 30.0%3p, 81.9%ft), 12.5apg, 2.6a/to
Calderon: 19.9ppg (52.0%fg, 33.0%3p, 81.8%ft), 11.5apg, 3.5a/to


As a "player", I'd say that Ford will probably be the "better" one, although both will be very good.

The thing is, I'm not a guy who wants my point guard to be a 1st or 2nd option on offense.

Jose is my kind of PG - a pass-first guy, who can score whenever the defense cheats....a very smart player who can play the game on the break and in the half court set, and, most importantly, NEVER EVER TURNS OVER THE BALL. he's brilliant in this aspect of the game. He's also more efficient than ford, shooting a much higher percentage over the field - Calderon is over 50% from the field for his career, which is extremely impressive for a PG. He's also much, much better shooting the 3 than Ford, and is at least as good if not better from the line.

As a PG, even though Ford will put up the better scoring numbers, I think Calderon is better for the team.

AND, more importantly, I also think Ford has more trade value than Jose, and can get us an impact scorer at SG/SF in a trade....and that's where I'd rather have my 25ppg scorer - on the wing, not at the point.

and the third benefit of moving Ford is that Ford has the much bigger contract.

Alfamale
12-12-2007, 05:14 PM
calderon > ford

MindzEye
12-12-2007, 05:25 PM
I can understand your stance Zeke, I just disagree with it. I think that explosiveness out of your ballhandler is one of the most important aspects of running a flexible offensive system. Calderon can fool you with a change of pace, but he doesn't have the quickness to consistently abuse defenses and force bad rotations.

The thing that Calderon has over Ford ( decision making ) is something that can be learned, the physical abilities that Ford has over Calderon is something Ford will always have over Calderon.

What can I say? I'm a sucker for high upsides

mbow30
12-12-2007, 05:28 PM
The thing is, I'm not a guy who wants my point guard to be a 1st or 2nd option on offense.

The idea behind trading Calderon would be to acquire a second option. The thing I like about Ford, however, is that when you run into injuries, or when the big guy has a bad game, he can step in and produce like a first or second option. Which is why I like him so much. Because he's as good a distributor as Calderon; the only thing he doesn't do as well is protect the ball, but he still has a very good assist:turnover ratio.


Calderon is over 50% from the field for his career, which is extremely impressive for a PG. He's also much, much better shooting the 3 than Ford, and is at least as good if not better from the line.

part of that, though, is that ford attempts lower-percentage shots. the upside is that he sinks a lot of them, although i must admit that calderon has hit a lot of clutch shots for the team the past two seasons.

as for 3-pt shooting--they're equally mediocre (calderon has been very good this year but in limited attempts. they're both at about 31% career marks).

zeke
12-12-2007, 05:41 PM
I can understand your stance Zeke, I just disagree with it. I think that explosiveness out of your ballhandler is one of the most important aspects of running a flexible offensive system. Calderon can fool you with a change of pace, but he doesn't have the quickness to consistently abuse defenses and force bad rotations.

I dunno, I just look at a guy like Nash, and it's not explosiveness which makes him the best. Kidd, neither. Stockton. hell, not even really for Marbury.

This is the kind of guy I see when I look at Calderon.

When I look at Ford I see PGs like Marbury, Francis, or maybe a poor man's Iverson. These are not the kind of guys I want running my point if I'm looking for championships.




The thing that Calderon has over Ford ( decision making ) is something that can be learned, the physical abilities that Ford has over Calderon is something Ford will always have over Calderon.

What can I say? I'm a sucker for high upsides

See, I don't think those things can be learned either - you either have them, or you don't. Calderon has a great bball brain, and seems to me to be a natural leader. He seems like much more of a winnner to me than Ford.

I'd say this, though - if Ford had a consistent J, I'd like him much better. But for someone as shot-happy as Ford to have such a poor jump shot just kills me...that's a hole that will always keep him from being great, IMO. In the meantime, he'll proceed to shoot his team out of many a ballgame.

We don't see this weakness so much now, because every time Ford starts getting too selfish, can't make his shots, and starts running around like a wildman and turning the ball over......Sam just brings in Calderon, who almost always calms things down and gets the team working again.

I think Calderon is covering for Ford's biggest weakness - his inconsistencey, belied by his poor jump shot and questionable decision making.

zeke
12-12-2007, 05:48 PM
The idea behind trading Calderon would be to acquire a second option. The thing I like about Ford, however, is that when you run into injuries, or when the big guy has a bad game, he can step in and produce like a first or second option. Which is why I like him so much. Because he's as good a distributor as Calderon; the only thing he doesn't do as well is protect the ball, but he still has a very good assist:turnover ratio.

I think you could get more for Ford than you could for Calderon, because most GMs are suckers for pure talent, and Ford has been getting the most minutes. If we want a true 2nd option, Calderon won't be enough to get it. Ford might be.






part of that, though, is that ford attempts lower-percentage shots.

exactly. he forces things. Calderon never forces.


the upside is that he sinks a lot of them, although i must admit that calderon has hit a lot of clutch shots for the team the past two seasons.

Calderon has been pretty much light out this season. When the offensive set stagnates, and he's forced to shoot - he's sinking that shot.


as for 3-pt shooting--they're equally mediocre (calderon has been very good this year but in limited attempts. they're both at about 31% career marks).

Calderon has really turned it up this year, and I think it's obvious that he's been working on it bigtime. He doesn't hesitate from 3-point land, and he's sinking those shots.

He's averaging 1.5 attempts per game....not a lot, but a good amount for a pass-first PG.

mbow30
12-12-2007, 05:55 PM
I think you could get more for Ford than you could for Calderon, because most GMs are suckers for pure talent, and Ford has been getting the most minutes. If we want a true 2nd option, Calderon won't be enough to get it. Ford might be.

I'm not sure if I agree with that, because salary is so important in today's NBA and Calderon has a very cap-friendly salary. I also think that teams will see beyond his raw numbers, due to his relative lack of PT, so I don't thikn that should be a problem.


exactly. he forces things. Calderon never forces.

that's one way to spin it, but it's not really true.

ford forces things when he has to, not because he simply wants to. you don't see ford playing high-risk basketball and attempting low percentage shots when the raptors are winning, or in close ball games. but we have seen, on several occasions, him step up offensively and be a primary offensive weapon... and even win some games for the team.





Calderon has really turned it up this year, and I think it's obvious that he's been working on it bigtime. He doesn't hesitate from 3-point land, and he's sinking those shots.

He's averaging 1.5 attempts per game....not a lot, but a good amount for a pass-first PG.

i don't see how you can ignore the 30% from last year.. or the 19% from the season before.

he's obviously worked hard at improving his game, but he's 15% above his career average.... that number will definitely fall below 40 soon enough, and potentially well below 40.

MindzEye
12-12-2007, 05:59 PM
I have to disagree about Nash & Kidd, both have lost a step, but both were explosive off of the dribble and Kidd especially was a one man fast break in his prime. Stockton was the epitome of a "true" PG though, but Calderon will never be anything more than a very poor man's John Stockton. I do agree with the stylistic similarities though.

Both Nash & Kidd turned into these floor generals they've become known as after their physical skills started to deteriorate and their BBall IQ's took over. Calderon never had their physical gifts that led to them being dynamite PG's earlier in their careers....Ford does have that physical edge.

At roughly the same point in his development, Nash took care of the ball a lot closer to what Ford does.

In their respective "break out" seasons
Ford (23)(06-07) - 2.57 A/TO
Nash (26)(00-01) - 2.49 A/TO

zeke
12-12-2007, 06:14 PM
I think you're underrating Calderon's natural talents.....he might not look explosive compared to TJ, but he's not consistently beating guys off teh dribble for easy lay-ins just by luck.

Calderon has game.

Of course, averaging 19.5p/13.5a per 48 minutes in his first two real seasons in the NBA would seem to indicate that, no?

not to mention the fact that we never seem to miss Ford when he's out of the lineup. we're 4-1 without him this year, with that one loss being a one-basket loss to Lebron.

zeke
12-12-2007, 06:21 PM
I'm not sure if I agree with that, because salary is so important in today's NBA and Calderon has a very cap-friendly salary. I also think that teams will see beyond his raw numbers, due to his relative lack of PT, so I don't thikn that should be a problem.

maybe.

I still think Ford's flash makes him more valuable.




that's one way to spin it, but it's not really true.

ford forces things when he has to, not because he simply wants to. you don't see ford playing high-risk basketball and attempting low percentage shots when the raptors are winning, or in close ball games. but we have seen, on several occasions, him step up offensively and be a primary offensive weapon... and even win some games for the team.

I think you're being generous. I think there's been plenty of times we've seen Ford taking silly shots, and attempting silly passes, when he starts getting pressured.



i don't see how you can ignore the 30% from last year.. or the 19% from the season before.

I'm not ignoring it. You're the one ignoring the fact that Calderon is showing 3 point range this year that Ford never has.


he's obviously worked hard at improving his game, but he's 15% above his career average.... that number will definitely fall below 40 soon enough, and potentially well below 40.

not sure if "career average" really applies here - 15% 1st year, 30% 2nd year, 45% 3rd year....that just looks like growth to me.

he won't stay at 45%, but he's definitely showing the ability to be a solid 35-40% shooter from the arc.

da_next_kid
12-12-2007, 06:23 PM
People comparing Steve Nash to Calderon is just not true, Nash is such a dynamic PG, his game isn't like Calderon at all. IMO Nash's game is much closer to TJ Ford than Calderon. Obviously Nash's passing instincts and his vision are much superior to Ford.

Watching Phoenix's games through NBA LP, Nash can get by his man on will and roams the court looking for seams and passes. In the 4th Quarter though, he looks for his shot, he is by far the best scorer on the suns in the 4th quarter, I don't even need to look at the stats in order to conclude that. Calderon is a lot more perimeter oriented than Nash, and our points in the paint will indicate that, Suns have better finishers but Nash makes a considerate effort to look for players in the paint.

Obviously, I am not the only one who thinks this way, Nash's former Coach, Don Nelson was quoted as saying that Ford is the closest thing to Nash in the whole League.

MindzEye
12-12-2007, 06:54 PM
And I think you're under rating the potential for future growth from a 24 year old point guard.

I'm not a big fan of arguing this subject though, like I said earlier, I would sign Calderon to a nice long 5-6 year deal for 5-6 million a season and just not worry about which one to keep. If we draft a PG at some point in the future, and that PG's play demands more burn, then this is an argument we can make with the help of wider stat sets.

I'll say one thing though, there are very few shooting guards I would trade TJ for.

axlsalinger
12-12-2007, 07:17 PM
Obviously, I am not the only one who thinks this way, Nash's former Coach, Don Nelson was quoted as saying that Ford is the closest thing to Nash in the whole League.I'm pretty sure Nelson made the Nash comment about Jose Calderon.

Fitzgerald#11
12-12-2007, 07:51 PM
nah it was Ford

axlsalinger
12-12-2007, 07:57 PM
You're right. My bad.

PlayerToBeNamedLater
12-13-2007, 02:45 PM
It would be really hard to choose between the two. They complement each other so well. Im glad I dont have to make that decision -- if it comes to that.

If I had to choose, I'd lean towards keeping Calderon. But a lot depends on the makeup of the team. The Raps would need to replace TJ's backcourt scoring production.

zeke
12-13-2007, 03:36 PM
Obviously, I am not the only one who thinks this way, Nash's former Coach, Don Nelson was quoted as saying that Ford is the closest thing to Nash in the whole League.

I'd like to have some of what Don Nelson is smoking.

Nash's two biggest assets are things that are Ford's biggest weaknesses: a) a pass-first, take what they give you mentality, b) the ability to drain 3-pointers at will.

da_next_kid
12-13-2007, 03:38 PM
Because a poster who thinks Andrea Bargnani is a first option in the league is more knowledgeable than a hall of fame former coach of steve nash. get real zeke.

zeke
12-13-2007, 03:39 PM
And I think you're under rating the potential for future growth from a 24 year old point guard.

I'm not a big fan of arguing this subject though, like I said earlier, I would sign Calderon to a nice long 5-6 year deal for 5-6 million a season and just not worry about which one to keep. If we draft a PG at some point in the future, and that PG's play demands more burn, then this is an argument we can make with the help of wider stat sets.

I'll say one thing though, there are very few shooting guards I would trade TJ for.


I guess I'd put it this way - Calderon and TJ as both so good that they should both be in our lineup.

And when I think of how they fit together on the court....if they're on together, given their styles of play, I'd still consider Calderon the PG, and TJ would become the SG. That's how I know which one is a better PG for the team, from my perspective.

That's why trading Ford for an SG that can score like him, but can actually defend the 2 spot and hit the 3 pointer, would make our team better, IMO.

zeke
12-13-2007, 03:40 PM
Because a poster who thinks Andrea Bargnani is a first option in the league is more knowledgeable than a hall of fame former coach of steve nash. get real zeke.


you're right, if a coach lays an offhand compliment on a player comparing some kid to a two-time MVP, we should take it as hard and true permanent fact.

I apologize for daring to disagree with Don Nelson.

and if Bargnani doesn't turn into a a 1st option, then you'll be forced to disagree with the drafting knowledge of a two-time GM of the year. how dare you.

Montana
12-13-2007, 03:44 PM
He didn't say he was an exact clone of Nash.........he said he's the closest person to him.

Doesn't mean they have to be identical in every aspect of their game.

zeke
12-13-2007, 03:49 PM
Basically, I see TJ as a very good, but ultimately flawed player. The kind of flaws that will hinder him from every being truly one of the best PGs in the league. the kind of flaws in the most important areas - a consistent jumper, and strong basketball mind and right PG attitude - the things which are Steve Nash's biggest strengths.

I like TJ a ton, but I think Calderon will end up being the more valuable player, despite having a less flashy game, and less impressive big numbers. Basically, I see Calderon as fundamentally sound in every area of the game, both physical and mental. I don't see any weaknesses in his game. Basically I see Calderon as better at every aspect of the game aside from one - and that's TJ's offensive explosiveness.....which also happens to be, IMO, the least important part of the game for a PG....in my opinion.

I think we have two excellent PGs to choose from, and we really can't go wrong.

da_next_kid
12-13-2007, 04:11 PM
Let's agree to disagree then because as good as Calderon is, I don't think he can ever be the player that TJ Ford is right now, let alone in the future. I just don't think Calderon can create for others off the dribble, even in the game last night, there wasn't one time that Calderon created for others in the paint, everyone is going under on screens on Calderon and are forcing him to take the jumper. And to his credit, he is shooting great percentages. If you watched Utah vs Phoenix last night, most of Nash's assists came off fast breaks and dribble penetrations. Both of them aren't even close to Nash in terms of decision making or passing ability, Nash is such a beast offensively.

axlsalinger
12-13-2007, 04:39 PM
That's why trading Ford for an SG that can score like him, but can actually defend the 2 spot and hit the 3 pointer, would make our team better, IMO.Don't discount the fact that Ford is a better defender than Calderon as a PG.


The kind of flaws that will hinder him from every being truly one of the best PGs in the league. the kind of flaws in the most important areas - a consistent jumper, and strong basketball mind and right PG attitude His jumper has improved immensely since he came to Toronto, it's at the point now where it's an asset to his game. Nowhere near Nash, but who is? And Ford does have a good basketball IQ, he's learned to control his speed this year when he gets into the paint and there's nothing there. And like someone else mentioned, he's not a "chucker", he shoots more when he realizes the team needs a scorer on the floor. When other guys are making shots, he distributes often and well.

zeke
12-13-2007, 06:05 PM
the defense question is an interesing one.

They're both good defenders, but in different ways. Both work their asses off, and it's nice that with Ford out there, there's very few PGs in the league that can beat him off the dribble. I've got to give him credit on that.

BUT, in guarding the bigger PGs, and whenever he has to switch onto another bigger player, he is suddenly a liability defensively out there because he's just too damn small, and gets abused pretty easily.

Calderon, while not as good as TJ in guarding small PGs one on one, is still pretty decent.....plus, he's much better against bigger guards and on switches to bigger players. Hell, he was even able to body up on Nowitzki on switches more than once in last night's game.

They both bring some good defense to the table, though.

da_next_kid
12-13-2007, 06:39 PM
Calderon and TJ are both Pylons on D, Calderon couldn't keep a log in front of him, this guy gets beat off the dribble so many times it's not even funny. TJ can only keep his man in front of him when he tries, we get putrid D from both of our PG's. TJ goes for the steals too much.

leaffan2005
12-13-2007, 07:09 PM
The problem with T.J. is that when he starts to hit a couple of shots, he starts thinking that he's M.J. and his decision-making drops off tremendously. This hasn't happened as much this year, or at least we haven't noticed it as much because his jumper has improved and some of his questionable decisions are still ending up in the opponent's basket. Having said that, he really needs to learn to be a more patient, and a more savvy leader at the PG spot and stick to his TRUE strengths which is his speed off the dribble and his court-vision. If he does that, then a comparison to a young Steve Nash can be made because when Ford is on his game, there isn't a lot you can do to stop him.

Jose is a similar case, but his game is a lot more X's and O's, while his decision-making is that of a veteran. His jumper is also more consistent, especially beyond the arc where he is shooting 44%. I like Jose better long-term, because he is a true leader on the floor and he makes everybody around him better. He also does a better job of finding the open man, and is a better help defender which makes him useful with the type of defense that the Raptors like to play.

Either way, it's a luxury to have both on the roster and I don't think a controversy needs to exist for one to come out and be "the" guy. Both make up the best PG duo in the NBA, and are the #1 reason that the Raptors are back on the map. Just ask opposing teams' fans, and ask them what they think about us bringing Jose off the bench. The guy would start on at least 10-15 NBA teams, and is coming in when the other teams have their bench players on the floor.

mbow30
12-13-2007, 07:11 PM
I think people also tend to lose sight of the fact that Ford came into the league very young (19) and lost a crucial year--his entire second season--of development.

He's only 24 years old. When Calderon was 24 he didn't even have a consistent 20 footer.

Montana
12-13-2007, 07:55 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong......but was Steve Nash even a starting point guard in the NBA at TJ's age?

da_next_kid
12-13-2007, 09:02 PM
averaged 9 pts a game and 4 dimes and 4.6 assists :D

PlayerToBeNamedLater
12-14-2007, 09:20 AM
Nash is a freak of nature. His developmental curve is not the norm, it's the exception.

A lot of young PG's currently stack up favourably to Nash statistically at the same age. But it really doesn't mean all that much.

Ford nor Calderon will ever be as good as Nash, however, combined, they come pretty close.

emo
12-14-2007, 01:50 PM
not sure if "career average" really applies here - 15% 1st year, 30% 2nd year, 45% 3rd year....that just looks like growth to me.


Until the third year is complete (and not a quarter of the way through) it's too early to talk about growth. Right now, last season's full-season stats are still the best tool for comparison.

I'd honestly be happy with either PG, but if I had to choose, I'd take Ford due to his offense and ability to break down opposing Ds. The fact that Ford can score without really becoming a selfish, Starbury type, is a nice ability.

zeke
12-14-2007, 04:00 PM
Calderon and TJ are both Pylons on D, Calderon couldn't keep a log in front of him, this guy gets beat off the dribble so many times it's not even funny. TJ can only keep his man in front of him when he tries, we get putrid D from both of our PG's. TJ goes for the steals too much.

That's an exaggeration.

There's no way the Raps could rank top-10 in the two key defensive categories (points allowed and fg% allowed) if our PGs were shoddy defenders.....especially given our much more obvious defensive weakness in the post, and in rebounding.

mbow30
12-14-2007, 04:37 PM
Well, their post defense has certainly improved quite a bit because of Moon's secondary defense, but your point stands--they obviously need more size/sterngth in the paint.

PlayerToBeNamedLater
12-14-2007, 04:39 PM
Delfino has also helped out a ton defensively. He can guard the 1,2 and 3.

One of the Raps biggest weaknesses last year was their perimeter D. Delfino and Moon have helped to correct that problem.

zeke
12-14-2007, 09:09 PM
Jose with 18 points and 15 assists so far tonight, with 3 minutes left.

zeke
12-14-2007, 09:20 PM
finishes with 18 points, 16 assists, and only 2 turnovers. 5 boards to boot.

I love this kid.

Fitzgerald#11
12-14-2007, 09:27 PM
that was a heck of a comeback.

Jose's D was a little exposed there down the stretch but some of that can contribute to the major minutes he played.

No doubt though, the high pick and roll he had going with Bosh/Hump was Nash'esq.

axlsalinger
12-14-2007, 09:30 PM
In addition to Bosh and Calderon, Humphries and Kapono were just awesome in that 4th quarter. They go from down 17 in the 3rd Q to winning by 11.

There's no question Jose can start in this league. But as Player said, they make an amazing combo. And that T. Jose Forderon may just be up there with Nash as the best point guard in the league.

PlayerToBeNamedLater
12-15-2007, 01:03 PM
Big win last night.

They needed it because they play 7 of the next 8 games on the road against the likes of Boston, Phoenix, San Antonio, Houston and New Orleans.

It's a hell-ish like stretch of games.

zeke
12-18-2007, 05:34 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/071218


Jose Calderon: How do you say "fantasy stampede" in Spanish? El stampedio de fantasia? Calderon's monster stretch of starts after two separate T.J. Ford injuries recently (10 games, 107 assists and 15 turnovers until a subpar game against Boston on Sunday) makes him a summer free-agent target for anyone who wants to emulate Phoenix's run-and-gun offense. It also opens the door for a very logical question: Why the hell was Jose Calderon backing up T.J. Ford???

zeke
12-18-2007, 05:38 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/071218


39. Pau Gasol
A logical trade candidate considering his salary ($63.3 million over the next four years), his struggle to adjust to the Marc Iavaroni Era (ongoing) and his pedigree (only 27, he's one of the few low-post scorers who commands a double team). So, I'm about to unveil the most logical trade for him. It's so fantastic, you're going to need to walk outside and get some fresh air after you read it. That's how good it is. Ready? Here's the trade:


Gasol and Juan Carlos Navarro for Bargnani, Rasho Nesterovic's expiring deal, an unprotected 2008 No. 1 and $3 million.

The Grizzlies save a boatload of money and rebuild around kids (Bargnani, Gay, Mike Conley Jr., Mike Miller, Kyle Lowry and Darko Milicic) and cap space galore for their inevitable relocation to wherever the hell they're moving some day. And not only does Toronto jump a level in the East, it reunites Gasol and Navarro with Spanish countrymen Calderon and Jorge Garbajosa. Bryan Colangelo wanted to build the ultimate FIBA team -- well, what's better than getting the nucleus of the 2007 Spanish team that won the World Championships, even if one of them is out for the year (Garbajosa)? Tell me which team doesn't make that trade. You can't. That's why I'm the Picasso of the NBA Trade Machine.

hairnova
12-18-2007, 05:48 PM
That's funny, I was going to post those two quotes when I read them today.

1) I agree. Calderon is better than Ford.

2) I don't make the trade because I think Bargnani is going to be a special player.

PlayerToBeNamedLater
12-19-2007, 09:46 AM
Very big road win. With some difficult games coming up, taking the game against the Clippers was a must.

Loving Calderon's play.

Im thinking that if the Raps can package Ford and Bargnani for elite swingman, the Raps can do a lot of damage.

leaffan2005
12-19-2007, 09:56 AM
Where do the Raps get the cap space for that deal?

PlayerToBeNamedLater
12-19-2007, 09:58 AM
Where do the Raps get the cap space for that deal?

What do you mean?

Ford + Bargnani alone make about 11 million. The Raps have contracts of all sizes to make a deal work.

leaffan2005
12-19-2007, 10:01 AM
I was referring to the Gasol proposal.

leaffan2005
12-19-2007, 10:05 AM
And I don't think it's wise to deal two of our three young cornerstones at the same time. One is struggling and his value is at an all-time low, and the other has battled injuries, and is being outplayed by the back-up. You're not going to get an elite talent for these guys, even though you technically should because their talent level and experience points to greatness.

The Gasol proposal, if the money can be worked out, is the only deal I would consider right now for Bargnani (only deal that is realistic for him) as he is also struggling, and would surely revamp his game with his Spanish amigos in Toronto. Losing Rasho's defense would be tough, but Gasol and Bosh would be one hell of a front court for years to come, while we would still keep our PG combo and the rest of our core.

Volcanologist
12-19-2007, 10:12 AM
I think they have to resist the urge to make major changes like that until the cap room opens up, no?

leaffan2005
12-19-2007, 10:19 AM
Are the Raps still on the hook for Mourning's contract?

leaffan2005
12-19-2007, 10:27 AM
Another thing to consider is the money we need to set aside to re-up Calderon after this season. I just don't see us adding any kind of big salaries until all of that is taken care of, and the core is signed long-term.

PlayerToBeNamedLater
12-19-2007, 10:53 AM
And I don't think it's wise to deal two of our three young cornerstones at the same time. One is struggling and his value is at an all-time low, and the other has battled injuries, and is being outplayed by the back-up. You're not going to get an elite talent for these guys, even though you technically should because their talent level and experience points to greatness.

The Gasol proposal, if the money can be worked out, is the only deal I would consider right now for Bargnani (only deal that is realistic for him) as he is also struggling, and would surely revamp his game with his Spanish amigos in Toronto. Losing Rasho's defense would be tough, but Gasol and Bosh would be one hell of a front court for years to come, while we would still keep our PG combo and the rest of our core.


I agree about the timing.

The Raps cant/shouldn't make a deal like this with Ford still out and Bargnani still struggling with his play and injuries.

Im not a big fan of Gasol. He's pulling a Vince Carter in Memphis. He's been really poor for much of the season.

Fitzgerald#11
12-19-2007, 12:21 PM
Are the Raps still on the hook for Mourning's contract?
He came of the books last year.
http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/toronto.htm
theres a link to out payroll. Only change is Humphires signed an exteneion and Moon has a 2 year deal.

da_next_kid
12-19-2007, 01:11 PM
Did you guys see Calderon play against Celtics? He was shut down by Rondo of all people. This guy could not drive and no one was going under screens, he was exposed as a perimeter player. There is nothing wrong with being a perimeter player per say but on a team where Bosh is the only one that can take his man off the dribble his inability to take over the game when other people aren't making their shots was astounding not only was he forcing passes he couldn't beat Rondo off the dribble and his defense was atrocious as always , when guys aren't making shots Calderon is utterly useless IMO.

MindzEye
12-19-2007, 02:39 PM
That is, as I've pointed out before, the only big flaw I see in Calderon, he just doesn't have that elite level quickness needed to beat good defenders off of the dribble with consistency. Calderon uses intelligence and change of pace to beat defenders, but if that's not working he's limited to running the offense from the perimeter and it means that we're limited as a team to the other 4 guys on the court creating shots. This is why I favour TJ Ford over Calderon personally, Ford can learn the floor general aspect of the game that Calderon has, and in fact, that's typically the skill that elite PG's needed to learn when they were new to the league. Calderon however, will never become the type of dribble penetrator, or pure scorer that TJ has the physical ability to be.

zeke
12-19-2007, 03:45 PM
I think we can give Calderon - and the whole team - a mulligan for any games against that Boston team right now.

Another typically solid game from calderon last night - 12pts (on 4/6 shooting), 6 boards, and 9 assists - and that's 9 helpers even though none of the raps could hit a shot last night.

and, of course, no turnovers, once again.

As a starter this year:

J.Calderon (26): 12gms, 36.1mpg, 12.3ppg (47.5fg%, 44.8tp%, 83.3ft%), 10.1apg, 3.8rpg, 0.8stpg, 0.3blpg, 1.6topg

zeke
12-19-2007, 03:49 PM
as for trades, there's three guys out there who have talked about maybe wanting out of their current teams, all of whom IMO would slot in perfectly to this team - Kirilenko, Marion, and Gasol.

Any one of them could jump into our starting SF spot, and really improve this team significantly. And all three of them would fit into our team philosophy and style very well.

The problem?

none of their current teams needs a PG.

soco22
12-19-2007, 05:09 PM
I don't know....the Suns could use a point guard...lol

My guess is that we will try and keep both of them in the end.

MindzEye
12-19-2007, 05:37 PM
There's very little reason not to keep both of them, atleast in the short term. I would keep them both until after the 08-09 season, Colangelo will have a boat load of cap space to work with during the summer of 09, and he'll be able to make a big splash in the free agent market, filling whatever holes he thinks are necessary to get this team to the next level. It gives him another year & 3/4's to evaluate which PG to keep.

Whichever one he decides to keep, the other will be locked in long term to a reasonable contract, either nearing, or in their primes, and will be at the absolute peak of their value. He will be able to land a star piece at either the 2 or the 3 to push this team closer to a title.

zeke
12-20-2007, 03:39 PM
We might not need to make a choice after all - TJ is in some serious trouble right now with his neck. His career could well be on the line right now.

soco22
12-20-2007, 03:41 PM
That's a bad thing.

Means we lose a big tradable asset. When we do make a choice.

zeke
12-20-2007, 04:31 PM
that's not just a bad thing.

that's an EXTREMELY HORRIBLE thing.

hairnova
12-28-2007, 10:53 PM
Just watched the end of the game vs. the Spurs. The Raps looked excellent tonight.

Jeremy
12-28-2007, 11:12 PM
Ford better get back. It would be horrible to lose him considering how young and talented he is. I love Calderon, but we need Ford here and for the long haul. We're just much stronger with a tandem like Caldy/Ford than without it.

PlayerToBeNamedLater
12-29-2007, 12:39 PM
Humphries is playing out of his mind. And to think the Raps got this guy for that stiff Hoffa.

tuckered
12-29-2007, 02:49 PM
I'm loving Humphries right now, hes a beast.

Fitzgerald#11
01-08-2008, 09:03 PM
I know there were some Calderon fans in this thread. There was piece on ESPN.com today about who should be All Stars this year. Jose was surprisingly one of them:

Backup guard No. 1: Jose Calderon, Raptors

This is probably going to shock some people, so I'll just go ahead and say it: Calderon, right now, is the third-best guard in the East.

Go ahead and laugh. Get it out of your system.

Done? Good. Now let's look at the numbers. Calderon ranks fourth among Eastern Conference guards in PER; he's a millimeter behind T.J. Ford, who is out indefinitely, and of course trails Wade and Billups.

But he's way ahead of the others. Vince Carter, Richard Hamilton and Michael Redd are eating his dust, and no other point guard in the East rates in the top 50 in PER. (If you're looking for Jason Kidd, by the way, there's more on him below.)

You might think Calderon's numbers are so good because he's been beating up on second-teamers for half the season. Actually, no: His PER has gone up since Ford went out and now is as high as it's been all season. In his 20 games as a starter, he's averaging 13.5 points, 9.9 assists, and shooting 50.0 percent from the field. The other overlooked part is that he's making only 1.5 turnovers per game.

Let me repeat that for emphasis: 9.9 assists. 1.5 turnovers.

That's amazing. To show you how amazing, let's look at a stat I keep called "pure point rating." I created it to replace assist-turnover ratio, which tends to reward point guards who never penetrate. Pure point rating produces more valid ratings of a player's ability as a distributor by rewarding production instead of just making a ratio. (If you're curious, the formula is: Pure Point = (100* ((Assists * 2/3) - Turnovers))/Minutes.)

So care to guess who's first in pure point ratio this season? Hint: it's not Steve Nash or Chris Paul. It's Calderon, by a fair amount.


Pure Point Rating leaders
Player Ast/40 min TO/40 min Pure Point Rating
Jose Calderon 11.2 1.8 14.11
Steve Nash 14.3 4.2 13.25
Chris Paul 11.0 2.7 11.47
Brevin Knight 7.9 1.7 8.96
Jason Kidd 11.3 4.0 8.94
*Through Sunday's games
No, he's not the scoring threat that Nash or Paul are, but Calderon is insanely efficient at running the offense and makes his shots, and that makes him a far more valuable player than people realize.

As for my arguments about preferring players who have established this level of performance, Calderon has a far better case than you might think. He played fantastic last season too and had the biggest PER jump in the league, though the voters chose to pretend he didn't exist in the Most Improved Player voting.

In fact, Calderon's 2006-07 PER ranked eighth among NBA point guards, and sixth among all guards in the East. To use one All-Star competitor as an example, his mark last season was not only better than Richard Hamilton's, it would have been the best mark of Hamilton's career.

So Calderon has been better than anyone else at his position except Billups, and his performance history suggests it's either not a fluke or a very small one. He's on a team with only one other viable scorer and, thanks to his skillful playmaking, has them in the top half of the league in offensive efficiency.

So if, after all this, you think he isn't an All-Star, I have only one question. Other than saying, "He's just not what I think of when I think of an All-Star," what case is there for Jose Calderon not to be an All-Star this year?

CTheBigPicture
01-08-2008, 10:30 PM
does anyone in the world of sports value defence anymore?

Wayward DP
01-08-2008, 10:32 PM
Yeah, I was originally a huge Calderon backer originally, but after watching him with TJ out I must say I definitely miss TJ. Calderon got undressed by Chauncey when we played the Pistons, and that was one of the main reasons we lost IMO

Hoss
01-09-2008, 09:01 AM
Chauncey Undresses many a PG, but never by himself... they have solid screen setters and run the pick and roll as good as the Suns... so I wouldn't criticise Calderon for that game...

zeke
01-09-2008, 12:41 PM
good PGs will undress anyone who tries to defend them. calderon also undressed Billups that game. Calderon was most definitely NOT the reason we lost that game, the reason we lost that game is because their bench outscored ours 27-5.

Calderon: 15pts (7/13), 9ast, 1to, 3reb, 2stl
Billups: 18pts (7/14), 9ast, 1to, 5reb, 0stl

Jose matched chauncey step for step.

Calderon has been a nice surprise defensively....he did a helluva job on Tony Parker in SA, and was the biggest reason why we won that game. And Tony Parker is the kind of guard that should give thim the most trouble, with his speed and all.


The biggest problem with the Raps right now is that our "awesome" bench doesn't look so awesome anymore without Calderon running that 2nd unit.

da_next_kid
01-09-2008, 12:43 PM
Our depth at the 2/3 is hurting us, Parker has been quite average :(.

mbow30
01-09-2008, 03:27 PM
The biggest problem with the Raps right now is that our "awesome" bench doesn't look so awesome anymore without Calderon running that 2nd unit.

yep, kapono and delfino have really slipped.

so has moon, for that matter. i think he has a pretty bright future as a solid two-way b-baller, but i think that the nba grind is hitting him a bit. he's never played against such physical players before, so it's gotta be tough to make that adjustment. especially since the raps have had a pretty compact schedule with a lot of back to backs.

zeke
01-09-2008, 03:45 PM
Moon was slipping for sure, but he seems to have picked it up the last few games, and was excellent last game.

MindzEye
01-09-2008, 04:02 PM
I'm pretty relaxed right now with the Raptors, they haven't been as good as I hoped, but they're built to be a better 2nd half team. Fatigue & injuries mount as the season continues, and our depth will be a big factor that keeps us in the fight for 4th in the conference (Defending the Atlantic title is now simply out of the question) for home court in the 1st round.

We've had a few nice surprises (Calderon, Humphries, Moon) but I don't think that has balanced out the negatives of Bosh being a step behind what he was last year, Ford's injury, Bargnani taking a step back in his development, and a few of our bench guys playing below expectation.

I think we need 3 things to be a much improved team in 2nd half.

1) The return of Ford, or the acquisition of a decent back up PG if Ford is going to miss the rest of the season

2) Another big body on the bench to help with rebounding.

3) Bargnani to wake up. He looks like he might be waking up out of his slump, but he's still really inconsistent. A solid 2nd half more along the lines of what is expected out of him ( 12-14PPG, 4.5-5.5 RPG, .435% from the field) will take some of the offensive onus off of Bosh & whoever is playing point.

Alfamale
01-09-2008, 04:35 PM
bargnani needs to grow a pair.

zeke
01-09-2008, 04:48 PM
Garbajosa has become a footnote, when he was a key presence for us last year.

We have two starters out of the lineup on a long-term basis, and that hurts us bigtime.

Alfamale
01-09-2008, 05:39 PM
garbo? nah, he's next to useless.

zeke
01-09-2008, 05:47 PM
he was a very significant part of the team this year, and his loss is underestimated.

he certainly was not useless last year.

Fitzgerald#11
01-09-2008, 05:49 PM
Garbo was big for us since he could guard multiple positions well. We don't have a player like that this year with mabye the exception of Delfino though he can't guard 4's.

Isaac25
01-09-2008, 05:50 PM
They miss Garbo's toughness and D...

MindzEye
01-09-2008, 07:11 PM
Garbo does a lot of things damn well. Defends extremely well, rebounds well, can stretch defences when he's playing the 4 with his shooting ability, and just overall toughness.

We miss him a lot...****ing Dr Nick Riviera the Spanish national team doctor saying that he was fit to play....I hope the Raps are able to sue the Spanish Basketball Federation over this.

Alfamale
01-09-2008, 07:34 PM
garbo is overrated as a defender. he's too slow to guard in the nba. he's not athletic enough to grab rebounds. not having garbo isn't the problem here.

mbow30
01-09-2008, 07:36 PM
the problem has been giving his minutes to bargnani, who has been absolutely terrible underneath the basket. you can't play that guy at the 5. there are no minutes for him at the 4. it looks like the raps have a rashard lewis on their hands.

not necessarily a bad thing, but definitely not what this team needs.

Alfamale
01-09-2008, 08:01 PM
bargnani doesn't even try to rebound. it's pathetic.

MindzEye
01-09-2008, 08:21 PM
garbo is overrated as a defender. he's too slow to guard in the nba.

Depends on what you think a defender is. I think of someone who moves their feet and stays in between his check and the basket, aslong as he's not matched up against an athletic 3, Garbo does that very well. 1.2 steals in 28 minutes, only 1.3 fouls per game (defending bigs, a foul usually equals free throws)


he's not athletic enough to grab rebounds.

4.9 in 28 minutes isn't bad for a guy who played a lot of 3 last year


not having garbo isn't the problem here.

Of course it isn't, but he's a valuable rotation player who is quite decent at some of the skills we're lacking as a unit right now.

PlayerToBeNamedLater
01-10-2008, 11:01 AM
Like the Leafs, the Raps cant stay healthy long enough to play a good chunk of games with a full roster.

When they are healthy, they are a team that can win games at a pretty good rate.

They aren't an elite team yet. They will likely be a 4th-6th seed, that has a chance to win a round or two. They aren't at a level where they can beat teams like Detroit or Boston. But given the ages of these teams, that may change in 2-3 years. Some patience is needed given how young the Raps core is.

da_next_kid
01-10-2008, 01:16 PM
TJ's health has changed everything, Now Calderon can't be traded for a star player and our bench is below average right now. A lot of what the Raptors can accomplish as a team moving forward depends on Bargnani, if he pans out as an all star player, Raptors are in a good situation. With that said, I don't think he's ever going to be more than a good scorer, he can't rebound, defend, box out.

Volcanologist
01-10-2008, 01:31 PM
It's too soon to start expecting big things. When they play the top teams they often get killed, which is a sign the team isn't at that level.

However with a young core and Bosh they are in infinitely better shape than the Leafs are.

MindzEye
01-10-2008, 02:41 PM
They're the addition of a star level swingman away from being a contender. The rest is just putting the right complimentary pieces in place, such as defensive specialists and shooters. We already have most of the complimentary pieces necessary, and with the large chunk of capspace coming our way, Colangelo should be able to either sign a star 2/3, or parlay the expiring Nesterovic contract + a reasonable asset or two into a star swingman.

Frankly, I don't see Bargnani as part of this team's long term future unless he decides to rebound at a rate of at least 7-8 a night. We already have a star Power Forward, and Bargnani is no centre. He should however, fetch a hell of a return on upside alone in another year or two.

zeke
01-10-2008, 02:42 PM
While they've been dissappointing a bit, it's also true that they've had one of the toughest 1st half schedules in the league so far (I believe Sagarin ranks them with the 3rd toughest schedule so far), and they've had to deal with major injury problems - all of Bosh, Bargnani, Ford, and Garbajosa have had serious injury issues to deal with.

It's likely that just due to scheduling, the Raps will be better the rest of the way. The .500 record on the road is extremely encouraging......that's a sign of a pretty good team. For whatever reason, home/away records in basketball mean more than in any other sport, aside from soccer.

MindzEye
01-10-2008, 02:45 PM
I was hoping for 50 wins, but 45-47 would be just fine and will likely secure 4th in the east. Home court in the first round will be huge for a group that is still very young. The addition of Kapono is going to be huge in the playoffs. We got killed last year by a defensive scheme that allowed the outside shot and played Bosh's drives towards the middle into a traffic jam. With better outside shooting to stretch the defence, it should give Bosh more room to work.

zeke
01-10-2008, 02:45 PM
They're the addition of a star level swingman away from being a contender. The rest is just putting the right complimentary pieces in place, such as defensive specialists and shooters. We already have most of the complimentary pieces necessary, and with the large chunk of capspace coming our way, Colangelo should be able to either sign a star 2/3, or parlay the expiring Nesterovic contract + a reasonable asset or two into a star swingman.

What was very interesting to me watching the game last night was the talk of how Igoudala turned down a mega-offer from the 6ers to stay in philly. There's a guy who I think would pretty much fit in perfectly on our roster. If we could get a sign'n'trade based on Ford/Graham/something else, that would be pretty sweet. But Ford has to prove that he's healthy, of course.


Frankly, I don't see Bargnani as part of this team's long term future unless he decides to rebound at a rate of at least 7-8 a night. We already have a star Power Forward, and Bargnani is no centre. He should however, fetch a hell of a return on upside alone in another year or two.

Yeah, I'm having serious doubts as to whether he can ever be a post player. The thing is, he can actually defend the post ok for such a young player, but his rebounding is atrocious.

I really think we should see if he can defend at small forward. Because that's where he belongs.

MindzEye
01-10-2008, 02:54 PM
What was very interesting to me watching the game last night was the talk of how Igoudala turned down a mega-offer from the 6ers to stay in philly. There's a guy who I think would pretty much fit in perfectly on our roster. If we could get a sign'n'trade based on Ford/Graham/something else, that would be pretty sweet. But Ford has to prove that he's healthy, of course.

Yeah, seeing how perfectly Iggy would slot into our lineup makes that Araujo pick irk me even more. I actually kind of have faith in Colangelo to find a steal in the mid-late 1st to fill that void. If you look at the Suns drafting record during his tenure as GM, very rarely to never did you see a better player chosen after the player he drafted. The only thing that shakes me a little bit there is that I think Aldridge would have been a better fit at the #1. But then it boils down to the need vs potential argument. Bargnani apparently crushed some confidence test that BC gives to draftees though, and that was the deciding factor in his selection




Yeah, I'm having serious doubts as to whether he can ever be a post player. The thing is, he can actually defend the post ok for such a young player, but his rebounding is atrocious.

I really think we should see if he can defend at small forward. Because that's where he belongs.

He can't defend at small forward...at the very least, I haven't seen that ability in him yet, and at 7 feet, he's a defensive mismatch waiting to happen. He should be able to handle the tweeners (Rashard Lewis, for example) but the smaller, more athletic 3's in the east (Granger, Pierce, Jefferson, Lebron, etc) would give him fits.

He really, really needs to develop a post game, even if it's a Dirkesque 8-12 foot high post game.

zeke
01-10-2008, 03:17 PM
well, Dirk looked just as weak in the post at this point in his career as Andrea does, so that gives hope.

MindzEye
01-10-2008, 03:36 PM
It absolutely does, and Dirk never really developed a true post game. But his 8-12 foot game is as deadly as an elite post game, so it really doesn't matter. The point of a post game is to get 1) high percentage shots 2) get to the free throw line, & 3) be close enough to the rim to chase rebounds. An 8-12 foot game would work just as well for Bargnani imo.

zeke
01-10-2008, 03:43 PM
IMHO, I've seen promising signs from bargnani defensively, no matter where he lines up. He's still very young, and has a ton to learn, but I've been very impressed with flashes of top-notch defense both against big centres and against small forwards. I really think he can develop a good defensive game at either position.

The thing is, offensively, I think his strength is so obviously on the outside, both in his ability to shoot the 3 and to face up and drive the hoop, that I think we really should be leaving him out there. That's where his strength on offense is....and because of it, he's rarely in a position to rebound down low.

He'll always have troubles with some of the faster SFs, but hell, everyone does. With his size and quickness, though, he could provide some very interesting defensive matchups.

It might not work, but I'd love to see it given a try.

PlayerToBeNamedLater
01-10-2008, 03:52 PM
It absolutely does, and Dirk never really developed a true post game. But his 8-12 foot game is as deadly as an elite post game, so it really doesn't matter. The point of a post game is to get 1) high percentage shots 2) get to the free throw line, & 3) be close enough to the rim to chase rebounds. An 8-12 foot game would work just as well for Bargnani imo.

The development of both players has been different.

When Dirk was Bargnani's age, Dirk was used primarily in a SF/PF role. Dallas didn't even attempt to play him at C. The result of this is that Dirk is primarily a perimeter threat who's only an average rebounder for his position. But he's great at what he does.

Bargnani has a much tougher assignment ahead of him because the Raps are using him in a PF/C role -- which goes against a lot of his natural instincts. That's why it's going to take at least 2 seasons before we really know what kind of player he will develop into.

Volcanologist
01-10-2008, 03:57 PM
Yep, Bargs being moved seems more likely. He's no centre and we already have Bosh.

Fitzgerald#11
01-13-2008, 03:33 PM
anyone wathcing this game? Crazy thus far

hairnova
01-13-2008, 03:46 PM
It was a crazy game. Raps came up big when it mattered most though.

Brandon Roy is pretty lethal. The Blazers are going to be really good for years to come.

da_next_kid
01-13-2008, 04:50 PM
Our #1 pick doesn't look so good right now but looks Bosh is playing the best basketball of his career.

hairnova
01-13-2008, 05:06 PM
They need to stop running isos for CB4 at the end of games though. They are better as a team.

Fitzgerald#11
01-13-2008, 05:23 PM
Well the isos in the 2OT was what won it for us. When Bosh is taking it inside like has the past couple games he's unstoppable. He does fall in love with the jumper over stretches (whos doesn't though) but overall its pretty balanced. One thing I'd like to see more is Calderon shooting it. Shoots to high of a % to dissapear for extended strecthes. he sould of been the one taking those shots with 2 seconds left in the 1st OT and the end of regulation IMO.

Oh yeah and major props to Moon who overcame the brainfart on the 4pt play. Hit a pressure shot and then the blocks were huge down the stretch. Can't wait to see him in the Dunk competition

MindzEye
01-13-2008, 05:28 PM
Brandon Roy is going to have some serious ankle issues that will stop him from hitting his potential. He's already having leg problems, and it's crossover and quickness that makes him so deadly.

I agree though, he is a seriously talented scorer.

hairnova
01-13-2008, 05:33 PM
I agree about Roy, the injuries will keep him from reaching his full potential. It's too bad.

da_next_kid
01-13-2008, 06:11 PM
I see him as a D-Wade lite. I am not hating on Bargnani or anything but can you imagine us with a core of Bosh-Roy-TJ-Jose, that would be one of the best in the east.

At this point though, Bargnani still has a chance to become something special.

Isaac25
01-13-2008, 06:17 PM
I see him as a D-Wade lite. I am not hating on Bargnani or anything but can you imagine us with a core of Bosh-Roy-TJ-Jose, that would be one of the best in the east.

At this point though, Bargnani still has a chance to become something special.

a young, athletic wing who can drive is exactly what the Raps are lacking. That being said, I still feel Il Mago can be terrific...

hairnova
01-13-2008, 06:23 PM
I wouldn't count Bargnani out yet either. Like some have said, Dirk didn't take over the league right away and they are very similiar. Give him some time, he'll turn himself into a star soon enough.

da_next_kid
01-13-2008, 06:30 PM
I wish people would stop putting so much pressure on Bargnani comparing him to a HOF player in Nowitzki. Dirk in his sophomore season (a year younger than Bargs) put up 17 & 6 and 21 & 9 the following season, it only took Dirk one season to get adjusted to the NBA game and he was a great player in his 3rd season. Dirk is faster, can jump higher, those aren't things you can teach.

zeke
01-13-2008, 06:35 PM
not sure if I've ever seen a team as stacked with young talent as Portland is right now.

C: G.Oden (19yrs, #1 '07)
PF: L.Aldridge (22yrs, #2 '06) - C.Frye (24yrs, #8 '05)
SF: D.Miles (26yrs, #3 '00) - T.Outlaw (23yrs, #23 '03)
SG: M.Webster (21yrs, #6 '05) - J.Jack (24yrs, #22 '05)
PG: B.Roy (23yrs, #6 '06) - S.Rodriguez (21yrs, #27 '06)

That's pretty sick.





great win by the Raps, though....and Jose continues to put up all-star numbers.

hairnova
01-13-2008, 07:30 PM
The comparaison's happen. Bargnani was touted as the "next Dirk" from the beginning.

da_next_kid
01-13-2008, 07:42 PM
Those were the hopes developed by fans, Colangelo himself stated that Bargnani wasn't a sure thing. He also argued that were no sure things in the whole draft, they obviously liked him and that is why they drafted him. It was the fans that looked at Bargnani's game (shooting 3's) and Dirk's game (shooting 3's) and put two and two together. The fact is at the same age, Dirk was putting up 21 and 9 and Bargnani is putting up 9 & 3.

Isaac25
01-13-2008, 08:26 PM
Those were the hopes developed by fans, Colangelo himself stated that Bargnani wasn't a sure thing. He also argued that were no sure things in the whole draft, they obviously liked him and that is why they drafted him. It was the fans that looked at Bargnani's game (shooting 3's) and Dirk's game (shooting 3's) and put two and two together. The fact is at the same age, Dirk was putting up 21 and 9 and Bargnani is putting up 9 & 3.

different teams...Bargs is essentially playing behind Bosh whereas Dirk did not have an elite talent ahead of him. Dirk got a lot of minutes in those days and learned on the fly. Il Mago gets very inconsistent playing time and I think it's hard to develop your game when you get less than 6-7 minutes some nights...I like Smitch as a coach but I think he's done a shitty job of finding a comfort zone for Bargs...

hairnova
01-13-2008, 08:31 PM
I didn't say who was comparing the two, just that they have been compared before and probably will be again. Has any Euro came over yet that was a guarenteed sure thing? Not many of them if there have been. Dirk definitely wasn't - remember the Bucks traded him for Robert Traylor lol. Dirk is a special player and I think Andrea has the potential to be the same kind of player. Is that better?

zeke
01-13-2008, 08:43 PM
It was the fans that looked at Bargnani's game (shooting 3's) and Dirk's game (shooting 3's) and put two and two together.

It was far more than just the fans. It included scouts, his own GM and Nowitzki himself.


Colangelo said he's had a lot of basketball people tell him that Bargnani was further developed at 18 years old than Nowitzki, to which he says: "When he's 25, I hope he's as good as Dirk."

As difficult a transition as Bargnani still must make, Nowitzki is responsible for clearing a path of credibility. The other night, Nowitzki remembered how "they laughed at me, laughed at my game – a 7-footer who shot three-pointers." Still, slowly, surely, Nowitzki willed his way into a template for Bargnani and a generation of European players on the make. If nothing else, Nowitzki allows himself a level of self-satisfaction with how he's shaped a changing face in the game, how no one laughs at but rather emulates him now.

"From what I've seen of him, he's got a lot of skills and ultimately that's what prevails in this league," Nowitzki said of Bargnani. "It's a great feeling to know that all the big guys now can shoot and put the ball on the floor and are fundamentally sound. And that's where this league is really going ultimately. It goes away from all the power down low, the centers …"

If Nowitzki doesn't dominate with so many dimensions inside and out now, does Colangelo still have the stomach to draft Bargnani No. 1 overall? Maybe so, but there's no mistaking that Bargnani is the most direct descendent to the way Nowitzki changed the power forward spot.

"Dirk was too big to be Drazen Petrovic, and we didn't get to see (Arvydas) Sabonis when he was Sabonis," Dallas Mavericks owner Mark Cuban said. "So Dirk really defined the model of the successful international player who had multiple skills, who was able to do more than just stand outside and shoot the ball. He showed a lot of toughness, showed a lot of grit. And he showed how to battle through all the transitional issues of learning to live in another country.

"I don't know Bargnani, except he looked good against us and on tape, but the real question is this: 'Can you work as hard as Dirk?'


“He’s a better player than when I was 19 or 20,” Nowitzki said of the 21-year-old Bargnani. “He’s going to be a heck of a player. He’s a little more athletic than I even was back then. He can drive a little better than me.”



and of course, all the pre-draft analyses, before the 'fans' ever saw him:


ANALYSIS: Bargnani comes into the 2006 draft as the consensus top international prospect. At only 20 years of age, his game compares to that of the Mavericks' Dirk Nowitzki.


Pros: Andrea is an excellent shooter and frequently gets compared to Dirk Nowitzki. Bargnani is very versatile with excellent ball-handling skills. When he is guarded by a small forward, he can use his height advantage in the low post. When guarded by a power forward he can take his defender off the dribble and knock down the jumper. He isn't just an offensive player as he is an adequate defender who uses his height to block shots.

hairnova
01-13-2008, 08:48 PM
I remember that quote from Dirk - he knows what kind of player Andrea can be... I agree with Isaac regarding his minutes. It's hard to stay consistent when you don't know how long you'll play in any given game. Definitely difficult for Bargs to get things going, that's for sure.

Alfamale
01-13-2008, 09:19 PM
bargnani still could be a good player... if he decides that he wants to rebound.

PlayerToBeNamedLater
01-19-2008, 09:22 AM
I love Calderon.

MindzEye
01-19-2008, 09:28 AM
I remember that quote from Dirk - he knows what kind of player Andrea can be... I agree with Isaac regarding his minutes. It's hard to stay consistent when you don't know how long you'll play in any given game. Definitely difficult for Bargs to get things going, that's for sure.

I have to disagree here, Sam is pretty good with Bargnani's minutes...if he's playing well, Sam will give him 30+, but if he's forcing his offence and doing little else of use on the floor, Sam isn't going to leave him out there to hurt the team on the floor.

Bargs has also been terrible for picking up quick fouls recently, which cuts into his burn.

zeke
01-19-2008, 12:15 PM
hellluva game last night. that was fun.

PlayerToBeNamedLater
01-24-2008, 10:45 AM
I actually missed the Sundin goal live last night because I flipped over to the Raps game.

Big win after a pretty bad loss against the 76ers.

I never thought I'd say this, but Jose is looking Nash-esque. Also, when Bargnani plays well, like he did last night (20/7/7), it gives the Raps a much needed boost they need against the elite teams in the league.

zeke
01-24-2008, 01:18 PM
J.C. is the messiah

hairnova
01-24-2008, 02:39 PM
Calderon is much better than Ford and he's continually proving it... what a game last night.

PlayerToBeNamedLater
02-01-2008, 03:24 PM
The (Memphis) Commercial Appeal reported Friday on its Web site that the Grizzlies have dealt Gasol to the Lakers for Kwame Brown, rookie guard Javaris Crittenton and first-round draft picks in 2008 and 2010.


Jerry West just a pulled a JFJ.

The Lakers traded an expiring contract, a mediocre prospect and two late draft picks for a potential all-star bigman.

Wow.

CTheBigPicture
02-01-2008, 03:31 PM
wow. Does this mean that Bynum's injury is worse that we thought?

CTheBigPicture
02-01-2008, 03:33 PM
actually we'll probably have Gasol, Bynum and Kobe on the floor at the same time........

now that's an impressive line up.

p.s. hopefully Gasol doesn't make it in time to play the Raptors tonight.

PlayerToBeNamedLater
02-01-2008, 03:35 PM
actually we'll probably have Gasol, Bynum and Kobe on the floor at the same time........

now that's an impressive line up.

Dont forget about Odom.

C Bynum
PF Gasol
SF Odom
SG Kobe
PG Fisher

They are now a serious contender for the title.

This trade also allows them to possibly package up Odom and a young player for Jason Kidd.

CTheBigPicture
02-01-2008, 03:40 PM
this shouldn't really be allowed, I mean if I make this trade in our keepers' league, people would ask for a veto. wow. it's either Stern wanting Lakers to be good, or West actually working for the Lakers. Their HAD to be a better deal out there.


also, I like these types of trades, it helps me strengthen my argument in favour of Babcock.

leaffan2005
02-01-2008, 03:41 PM
haha, Kidd/Kobe/Gasol would challenge Boston's big-three.

What's with all these stacked teams all of a sudden? Guess I'm just used to the mediocre ones in the NHL that it seems unreal to see so many teams have 2-3 top-draw superstars.

I'll be at the game tonight, btw, and we always win when I'm there so the Raptors should breathe easy, even if Gasol plays.

zeke
02-01-2008, 03:46 PM
we should have made that trade.

Rasho + Moon/Graham + 1st round picks

leaffan2005
02-01-2008, 03:48 PM
Rasho is not an expiring contract, and Memphis wants immediate cap relief.

PlayerToBeNamedLater
02-01-2008, 03:48 PM
Rasho's contract doesn't expire until after next season.

I think Memphis made this deal for immediate cap relief.

CTheBigPicture
02-01-2008, 03:51 PM
cap relief is SO overrated. What are they going to do with the cap space now? overpay a player that is worse than Gasol.

the first round picks are 20+ range, not good enough to amount to anything special.

the prospects is just a throw in.

deal should not have been allowed.

PlayerToBeNamedLater
02-01-2008, 03:54 PM
Even with this trade, I believe Memphis will only have about 10 mill of cap space next year -- and that doesn't even count the money needed to sign their draft picks.

It looks like West did his friends in LA a favour.

da_next_kid
02-01-2008, 04:30 PM
Nets also got Swift, I can see Kidd going to LA for Farmar + Odom + Filler. Javaris Crittenton is going to be great, I said it first.

Fitzgerald#11
02-01-2008, 04:37 PM
Don't think the Lakers have the picks to get Kidd now. Even so Fisher and Farmer is soild PG tandem, I mean you don't exactly need Magic out there to run that group on the floor. Now if they can somehow move Odom for AK-47 they would solve the defensive issues they have now and be the clear cut fave in the West.

CTheBigPicture
02-01-2008, 04:49 PM
btw, I was under the impression that you can't trade two first round picks in a row???

PlayerToBeNamedLater
02-01-2008, 04:52 PM
btw, I was under the impression that you can't trade two first round picks in a row???

The picks are in '08 and '10

JaysCyYoung
02-01-2008, 04:52 PM
That Lakers line-up looks nigh on unstoppable now. I agree that their current point guard situation is serviceable considering the talent level of the rest of the supporting case. However, if they could somehow acquire Kidd and move Fisher into the reserve role (how phenomenal of a bench would that be?), then they would be the clear-cut title favourites along with Boston and San Antonio.

Just ridiculous. Gasol should help their inside rebounding presence in the absence of Bynum and gives them a legitimate all-star second option at power forward.

axlsalinger
02-01-2008, 06:05 PM
Wow! That's the first I've heard of this. What a deal for the Lakers. They are definitely a top contender now.

As for Memphis, they like the capspace and the picks, but Crittenton is not a mediocre prospect. I've read some things about him in the past, he's a couple of years away but there are people in the game who think he's got star potential as a PG. He was definitely a major reason who Memphis would do this. And I did have to laugh at Zeke offering Joey Graham instead.

Fitzgerald#11
02-01-2008, 06:12 PM
Thing I can't understand is Memphis already has 2 great young PGs in Conley and Lowry (Navarro's there as well). So not sure why they went after Crittenton as well but whatever. Mabye they can move 2 of them for some young bigs.

axlsalinger
02-01-2008, 06:22 PM
Yeah, they do already have Conley. Guess they're just trying to accumulate as many young assets as they can. Crittenton is 6'5, so they may project him as a SG rather than a PG.

eason97
02-01-2008, 07:50 PM
Gasol is having a really sub-par season really.

I have him on my fantasy team.

MindzEye
02-01-2008, 08:06 PM
19 & 9 is sub par?

the_undead
02-01-2008, 10:28 PM
did anyone see the sign in the crowd tonight that said:

"will trade the leafs for kobe"

:smilielol5:

Fitzgerald#11
02-01-2008, 10:31 PM
yeah that funny. though not as funny as Kobe lighting us up... again.

eason97
02-01-2008, 10:31 PM
19 & 9 is sub par?

Most of the numbers are down from last season. Most likely from the emergence of Rudy Gay.

johnunit
02-01-2008, 10:39 PM
did anyone see the sign in the crowd tonight that said:

"will trade the leafs for kobe"

:smilielol5:

I wouldn't do that, because no one on the leafs is a total ********************ing****************head

MindzEye
02-01-2008, 11:08 PM
Most of the numbers are down from last season. Most likely from the emergence of Rudy Gay.

Nah, I think it mostly has to do with last season bringing career highs in most catagories. If it was due to Gay's emergence, it's his touches that would suffer most, but he averaged 14.5 shots a night last year to 14.2 this year.

His totals this year are almost right on the nose of his career averages, last year was a slight aberration...probably based mainly on the fact that he played only 59 games due to injury. The other 20+ games may well have stabilized his numbers back to where they've been pretty much every other year of his career.

he set career highs almost across the board last year, FG%, PPG, RPG, DRPG, tied his career high in BPG.

This year is just him stepping back to his norm. 19 & 9, 50% from the field is exactly what you should expect from Gasol. I like that he's improved his FT% 2 seasons in a row, and has worked on keeping his turnovers to a very low rate for an offensive focal point the last 3 years.

hairnova
02-01-2008, 11:23 PM
did anyone see the sign in the crowd tonight that said:

"will trade the leafs for kobe"

:smilielol5:

Hahaha, that's awesome.

leaffan2005
02-02-2008, 03:00 AM
Like I said before, I love this team, but their lack of organization on defense, and their inability to rebound the ball is keeping this team as a borderline pretender at best. Adding Ford will help, but Ford won't stop teams from consistently shooting over 50% against us, on top of getting 2-3 chances on every offensive possession. In the playoffs, those extra possessions are what decide a series, and this team just doesn't look polished or prepared to deal with the little details necessary to win games.

Colangelo has done a nice job to put this franchise back on the map, but he still has a lot of work to do when it comes to making this team a contender.

leaffan2005
02-02-2008, 03:05 AM
And a lot of these mistakes we make can be put solely on the shoulders of Sam Mitchell. The guy is a great motivator, and a real "player's coach", but he is possibly one of the worst tacticians I have ever seen when it comes to running a team. On THREE separate occasions, Sam had Juan Dixon guard Kobe Bryant down the floor and all three times, Kobe penetrated with no opposition and either finished it himself, or found an unguarded teammate with a wide open shot. Half the time, the guy wasn't even being double-teamed, which is laughable considering the damage he has done to this team in the past couple of years. Even in the 81 point game, Sam had the guys play him straight up most of the time. Tonight, Kobe was in that zone again and Sam didn't adjust his game-plan whatsoever. It didn't help that the Laker's were making every shot they took, but a lot of the damage done by Kobe tonight could've been minimized by a few simple adjustments that could've been made by Mitchell.

It's really concerning to see a team not be able to guard the outside shot OR the inside presence in the paint. Being weak in one or the other is excusable, but there's no way you can be poor on both ends of the defensive spectrum and hope to win many games. Right now, the only reason the Raptors are winning games is because their offense is starting to find a nice rhythm and they are hitting a nice percentage from beyond the arc.

Sorry, and this is the end of this rant. :)

da_next_kid
02-02-2008, 05:31 AM
I think blaming Sam Mitchell is a cop out, this Raptors team simply isn't good enough to beat good teams consistently. They have feasted on bad opposition but have done very poorly against good teams. They really need TJ ford in there to hide Jose on the defensive end, I was at the game tonight and as good as he is offensively he just flat out sucks defensively, he is late on double teams, late closing out on a shooter, I am not even going to comment on his ability to keep his man in front of him.

As bad as Jose is on the defensive end, he still should be starting for the foreseeable future, watching him live, this guy can play.

Kobe & LeBron always torch us, none of our wing players can guard them. Parker, Delfino, and Moon did a pitiful job against kobe. And let's not forget our presence up the middle, Bosh and Bargnani are below average, no hard fouls, heck they didn't even bother to contest after Kobe went by his man. How many dunks did he have today? 5? 7?

zeke
02-02-2008, 02:34 PM
They have feasted on bad opposition but has done very poorly against good teams.

This is true, but I'm not sure most people realize how tough the raps schedule has been so far.

Both Sagarin at usatoday and Hollinger at ESPN calculate that the Raps have had the #1 toughest schedule in the league so far.

We've played a quarter of our schedule against the top-5 teams in the league (BOS, DET, PHX, SA, NO).




Vs. 1-5 (BOS, PHX, DET, NO, DAL): 11gms, 3-8
Vs. 6-10 (SA, LAL, ORL, UTA, GS): 5gms, 1-4
Vs. Top-10: 16gms, 4-12
Vs. 11-15 (DEN, POR, HOU, CLE, TOR): 7gms, 3-4
Vs. 16-20 (WAS, SAC, NJ, ATL, IND): 9gms, 7-2
Vs. 11-20: 16gms, 10-6
Vs. 21-25 (CHI, PHI, MIL, CHA, LAC): 10gms, 8-2
Vs. 26-30 (NYK, MEM, SEA, MIN, MIA): 4gms, 3-1
[u]Vs. Bottom 10:[u] 14gms, 11-3


So you're right, they haven't been able to do much against the top teams....but, then again, we have yet to have our 4 top players, the 4 guys who have all-star level talent (Bosh, Barganani, Calderon, Ford), all healthy and productive at the same time.

There's no question we need all 4 of those guys healthy and productive to have success against the top teams, and even then we're a solid step down from the elite teams in the league.

This is why we absolutely need Ford to come back and show that he can be healthy and productive - because we absolutely need to trade him to fill one of our two big holes - a legit scorer off the wing, or a legit athletic rebounder in the middle.

If we can manage to trade Ford as the centrepiece of a package for a player to fill one of those holes, then we're looking pretty good for next season, especially since it looks like that Roko Ukic kid is finally coming over from europe, and should be a solid backup to Calderon.

Then, with some expiring contracts at the end of next season (like rasho), we should be able to either trade and fill teh last hole, or wait and sign a UFA to fill the hole in the offseason.

At that point, we should be a legit contender, and still a relatively young team to boot.

Fitzgerald#11
02-04-2008, 09:47 PM
and 8 weeks after this thread was made TJ made his return tonight. A sick dunk towards the end of the game as well

MindzEye
02-04-2008, 11:16 PM
TJ had a nice night and I think something very important was extremely evident.

The Raps are disgusting when they have a 2nd legit PG running the 2nd unit. Miami is terrible, but I don't think there is a defensive scheme that would have held the Raps to less than 100 tonight, they were just shooting far too well.

It's what Jose used to do for the 2nd unit, but for the remainder of this season I think roles have to be reversed. TJ is too important to our playoff chances, and we need to limit the risk of re injury.

The raps are poised for a serious run if TJ is back and finds his game between now and all star weekend.

da_next_kid
02-05-2008, 03:36 AM
This is the time for this group, TJ is back, Bargnani is back, and Bosh is 100% healthy.

zeke
02-05-2008, 11:37 AM
yep....and the schedule is laying out nicely for them as well.

If they can't make a big run over the next month or two, then this team just isn't as good as we think they can be.

Wayward DP
02-05-2008, 12:44 PM
Bargs appears to have finally found his form recently as well. I really like the prospect of having Bargnani and Ford absolutely demolishing other teams second units for the rest of the season, while Bosh Jose and Parker can go toe to toe with the top units.

PlayerToBeNamedLater
02-06-2008, 12:37 PM
The seemingly improbable pairing of an aging Shaquille O'Neal and the run-and-gun Phoenix Suns is just a final "yes" from the Suns away from happening, according to NBA front-office sources.

Sources told ESPN.com on Tuesday night that the Miami Heat have already agreed to send O'Neal to the Suns in exchange for All-Star forward Shawn Marion and out-of-favor guard Marcus Banks. Miami is simply waiting for Phoenix management to complete a medical examination of O'Neal and formally accept what would rank as one of the most unexpected trades in league history.

"It looks like it's going to happen," said one source close to the situation. "We should know for sure by [Wednesday]."


WOW

The trade floodgates have opened.

MindzEye
02-06-2008, 12:53 PM
I don't know if that's a very good move for the Suns....unless if they plan on becoming more half court oriented (which with Amare and his micro fractured knee, an aging Shaq, and an aging Steve Nash would probably be a good idea)

I know they wanted out from under Marion's contract...but doesn't shaq have another year after this one on a huge 20 million dollar per season deal?

axlsalinger
02-06-2008, 12:54 PM
Shaq in the run and gun!!

This year's NBA Western Conference playoffs look like they're going to be among the best ever. The Suns and Lakers have beefed up, Spurs are defending champs, Dallas is still a top contender built around last year's MVP, and exciting young teams in New Orleans and Golden State, Utah can upset someone as well.

Fitzgerald#11
02-06-2008, 01:23 PM
the difference in talent between the 2 conferences is crazy. Nets have the 8th seed and are like 8 or 9 games under .500

reebus
02-06-2008, 01:27 PM
Aside from radical differences in style - Shaq running and gunning? or Phoenix slowing down? - Phoenix also gave up Marion who has been integral to their team dynamic. And considering how broken down Shaq is the end result for the Suns could be losing Marion for nothing.

Fitzgerald#11
02-06-2008, 01:31 PM
well Marion is opting out this summer so they wanted something but one would think they could of done much better then an over the hill Shaq. heck they could've made a better offer for Gasol with Marion and the pick they have from Atlanta

P.S. I hope the Suns meet the Lakers in the playoffs with Shaq being healthy

zeke
02-06-2008, 01:37 PM
I''m still pissed that we didn't beat that package for Gasol.

gasol would be a perfect fit on this team.

reebus
02-06-2008, 01:44 PM
I haven't seen Gasol play much, but isn't he like a clone of Bosh? Marion is the one who I think would be a perfect fit... Any chance we have the resources to make a run at him this summer?

I guess if Shaq reverts to even 75% of the Shaq of old, then trying to stop him and Stoudemaire would be like trying to handle Godzilla and King Kong at the same time... But it's not exactly surprising that Shaq's body is breaking down at this age. I don't see him accomplishing much with the Suns, but a healthy Shaq would be trouble in the playoffs for the West.

MindzEye
02-06-2008, 01:46 PM
Well, I would be shocked if Colangelo didn't place that call...and if Crittendon was the centrepiece for Gasol, I could only assume that they asked for Calderon. Which would be a non starter in my opinion. Gasol is good, but not worth his contract to this team imo, if it means giving up a legit asset.

If we were able to package together something else that doesn't include Bosh, TJ, Calderon, & Bargnani to get him...great, but I don't think he's the final piece here and I'd rather be patient until the summer of 09 and wait for that capspace before trying to shift key parts to bring that final piece in.

Fitzgerald#11
02-06-2008, 01:46 PM
Not much cap room for us this summer. Summer of 09' is where we'll have the room to make a major signing. Though it depends on just how much Calderon will be getting this summer.

PlayerToBeNamedLater
02-06-2008, 01:50 PM
I dont think the Raps could've beat the Lakers offer if the Grizz's #1 concern was getting immediate cap relief.

Next year will be the time when the Raps make their big move. They will have a lot of expiring/short term contracts -- including Rasho's big expiring.

hairnova
02-11-2008, 09:10 PM
Calderon is playing lights out against the Spurs right now...

Too bad Ginobili keeps coming back and killin'em.

eason97
02-11-2008, 09:22 PM
Calderon is not an All-Star, according to Agent Zero.


"Some people wanted Jose Calderon. Jose Calderon? Who? Come on man, this is All-Star, people," Arenas wrote on his blog.

"I understand Calderon has the best assist-turnover ratio in the league, but you know what's funny? All back-up point guards have the best assist-turnover ratios. Screw it, Kevin Ollie should be an All-Star then!"

"I've been loving the way he's been playing for the last two years. When he first came into the league he was a little timid and scared to shoot the ball, but he's taking over that team. But All-Star? He's about 20 years away from being an All-Star."



"Calderon is managing a team. If he was up for Rookie All-Star, Sophomore All-Star . BOOM . he'd get in. He might even be MVP! But for the big show? The big game? No."

Arenas: Calderon is no All-Star (http://tsn.ca/nba/news_story/?ID=229414&hubname=)

Metalleaf
02-11-2008, 09:31 PM
Colangelo needs to get this team some rebounding help quick.

hairnova
02-11-2008, 09:33 PM
Colangelo needs to get this team some rebounding help quick.

I agree.

Fitzgerald#11
02-11-2008, 09:35 PM
yeah thats happened way too many times this year. although Delfino was the main culprit on that play.

MindzEye
02-11-2008, 09:43 PM
Calderon is not an All-Star, according to Agent Zero.



Arenas: Calderon is no All-Star (http://tsn.ca/nba/news_story/?ID=229414&hubname=)

Comparing Calderon to Kevin Ollie? Back up point guard? Back up PG's always having good assist-to ratios?

Arenas is a ****ing moron....good ball player though, but a complete moron.

Alfamale
02-11-2008, 10:14 PM
if this team was even a decent rebounding team, we'd be a very good to elite team -- it's a shame bargnani doesn't have a sack.

hairnova
02-11-2008, 11:48 PM
LOL @ Chris Bosh's new video!!!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3k31visEt9M

CTheBigPicture
02-12-2008, 12:07 AM
"I believe here you call it 'crib' " lol :D

good video, had seen it before but hadn't seen the second half. Thanks for posting.

what's with the Great Britain's national anthem btw??

hairnova
02-12-2008, 12:08 AM
I just saw it on the Score for the first time and then found it on youtube so I thought I would post it. It's pretty funny...CB4 is definitely having a lot of fun with these videos.

CTheBigPicture
02-13-2008, 03:05 PM
was J. Kidd just traded?

soco22
02-13-2008, 03:27 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3244102

Although sources say that the teams are still sorting out final details, this deal was described as "imminent" by multiple sources close to the process after negotiations moved to an advanced stage Tuesday night. The deal -- salvaged from talks on a three-way trade with Portland that developed and fizzled quickly two weeks ago -- has Dallas sending 24-year-old point guard Devin Harris, veteran swingman Jerry Stackhouse, the expiring contracts of center DeSagana Diop and swingman Devean George and guard Maurice Ager to New Jersey for Kidd and forward Malik Allen.

Sources say Dallas will also add the league-maximum $3 million in cash and send its first-round draft pick this June as well as a first-rounder in 2010.

The Nets are expected to buy out Stackhouse's contract immediately, which could enable him to re-sign with Dallas if he waits 30 days, and ESPN The Magazine's Chris Broussard reports that the Nets and the Mavs are likewise poised to complete a separate trade that will send swingman Antoine Wright to Dallas for a future second-round pick.

Fitzgerald#11
02-13-2008, 03:32 PM
man the western conference playoffs are gonna be just crazy this year. a couple more big names (Artest, Bibby, Miller) could be moved to make it even more intresting.

hairnova
02-13-2008, 03:37 PM
J-Kidd to my Mavs, yeeee. :smile(21):

CTheBigPicture
02-13-2008, 03:39 PM
J-Kidd to my Mavs, yeeee. :smile(21):



BAD trade for the Mavs IMO. They not only gave up those picks (although they are low picks) but they gave up Harris. Harris >> Kidd beyond this season.

CTheBigPicture
02-13-2008, 03:41 PM
and yeah, hopefully the league does NOT choose Calderon to replace him in the AS game. He would ask for more money.

hairnova
02-13-2008, 04:03 PM
They really haven't been that good this season, so I think that's why they made the move - and of course it was a reply to the other West teams getting better. I didn't really like giving up Harris either, but they geared things up in his draft to acquire him, I'm sure they can do it again with another point guard. And last I heard, the Nets were going to release Stack and he'll re-sign with Dallas.

PlayerToBeNamedLater
02-13-2008, 04:45 PM
The playoffs in the west are going to be crazy.

Phoenix: Nash, Amare, Shaq
Dallas: Nitwitzki, Kidd, Howard
San Antonio: Duncan, Parker, Ginobili
Lakers: Kobe, Gasol, Odom, Bynum
New Orleans: Paul, West, Chandler
Denver: Melo, Iverson, Camby

The talent in the west is scary.

da_next_kid
02-13-2008, 04:47 PM
Let's not forget Houston and Utah.

PlayerToBeNamedLater
02-13-2008, 04:50 PM
Let's not forget Houston and Utah.

Yup. Even Golden State is a threat.

Phoenix: Nash, Amare, Shaq
Dallas: Nitwitzki, Kidd, Howard
San Antonio: Duncan, Parker, Ginobili
Lakers: Kobe, Gasol, Odom, Bynum
New Orleans: Paul, West, Chandler
Denver: Melo, Iverson, Camby
Utah: Williams, Boozer, Kirilenko, Okur
Houston: McGrady, Yao
Golden State: Davis, Jackson, Ellis

axlsalinger
02-13-2008, 04:58 PM
Once a team beefs up, others try to do the same. Hopefully we see the same thing happen in the NHL.

I really like Devin Harris, so I think the Mavs are going to regret this trade big-time down the road. Right now, however, Kidd makes them a legit contender.

And as I said a while back, the Western Conference NBA playoffs are going to be amazing. Possibly the best ever.

Fitzgerald#11
02-13-2008, 05:04 PM
How about the PGs in the West now - Kidd, Paul, Williams, Baron, Parker, Nash. You can even throw AI and Roy in there.

hairnova
02-13-2008, 10:12 PM
So apparently Devean George has a "trade provision" and decided that he didn't want to go to New Jersey, therefore nixing the Kidd-to-Dallas trade. Wonder what'll happen now.

Fitzgerald#11
02-13-2008, 10:14 PM
they'll work around something small like that. mabye a buy out by Jersey or something

MindzEye
02-13-2008, 10:14 PM
Dirk Nowitzki will axe murder Devean George?


That's my guess

mbow30
02-13-2008, 10:58 PM
devean george is an idiot.

he's a free agent at the end of the season.

he had a decent season in 06-07 and wanted to cash in, declined his option and opted for free agency... only to get about $350k less (from the same team) than eh would have gotten had he not declined the option.

new jersey would have given him a good opportunity to pad his stats a bit--he would certainly get more playing tiem than he has thus far in dallas--which probably would have helped him on the FA market.

now, i'm betting nobody even touches him.

CTheBigPicture
02-13-2008, 10:59 PM
I am watching the Raptors' game on the PVR right now. I love how they are destroying the Nets, but do not like how they are acting on the court.....I always criticize players for showing excitement, jumping up and down when they are dominating the game. I guess I am part of the "Act like you've been there before" club.

thoughts?

CTheBigPicture
02-13-2008, 11:01 PM
devean george is an idiot.

he's a free agent at the end of the season.

he had a decent season in 06-07 and wanted to cash in, declined his option and opted for free agency... only to get about $350k less (from the same team) than eh would have gotten had he not declined the option.

new jersey would have given him a good opportunity to pad his stats a bit--he would certainly get more playing tiem than he has thus far in dallas--which probably would have helped him on the FA market.

now, i'm betting nobody even touches him.

come onnn....he will find a home, he is a decent player.....I guess he just cares about winning more which is admirable.

MindzEye
02-13-2008, 11:01 PM
I'm more of a "play like your career is over tomorrow" kind of a guy

Show as much excitement as you'd like, as long as you're not showing up the opposition.

CTheBigPicture
02-13-2008, 11:03 PM
I'm more of a "play like your career is over tomorrow" kind of a guy

Show as much excitement as you'd like, as long as you're not showing up the opposition.


haha very different mindsets there. I am even disliking all these Threes the Raptors are putting up. UP by 30, the game's over. Fans' have already enjoyed the game. Give the Graham's and Dixon's a chance to play and not embarrass the opponents.

mbow30
02-13-2008, 11:17 PM
i don't know why people would rather tehy do that. the fans pay to see chris bosh and jose calderon. that's who matters, not hte opposition.

besides, i always love watching them stick it to VC.


as for devean george, no other team in the league would touch him in the offseason. and you can't pull the "he just wants to play for a winner" card, because players like that don't screw over their teammates like george is basically doing right now.

Volcanologist
02-13-2008, 11:21 PM
Carter is such a choad. What a waste of unbelievable talent.

mbow30
02-13-2008, 11:24 PM
Carter is such a choad. What a waste of unbelievable talent.

yep.

the saddest part was that mj saw the talent in him and totally challenged him.

rather than step up to the challenge, carter brushed it aside. that should have been a sign.

Alfamale
02-13-2008, 11:25 PM
carter is a douche but the fans need to stop boo'ing -- carter's time here is done, let it go.

mbow30
02-13-2008, 11:30 PM
carter is a douche but the fans need to stop boo'ing -- carter's time here is done, let it go.

i disagree. carter is indebted to the fans. they built him up to what he became (because, let's face it, the dunking is still his main claim to fame).

and he really spat in raptors fans collective faces with that pitiful effort he put forth in 04-05. that was absolutely disgusting and he deserves everything he's now getting from raps fans.

CTheBigPicture
02-13-2008, 11:31 PM
i don't know why people would rather tehy do that. the fans pay to see chris bosh and jose calderon. that's who matters, not hte opposition.

besides, i always love watching them stick it to VC.


as for devean george, no other team in the league would touch him in the offseason. and you can't pull the "he just wants to play for a winner" card, because players like that don't screw over their teammates like george is basically doing right now.

I would've argued with you but can't anymore. Just saw an interview with DG and he only used the word "Win" once and it was referring to their game tonight.


he is obviously holding out to get an extra year on his contract or something.

MindzEye
02-13-2008, 11:39 PM
haha very different mindsets there. I am even disliking all these Threes the Raptors are putting up. UP by 30, the game's over. Fans' have already enjoyed the game. Give the Graham's and Dixon's a chance to play and not embarrass the opponents.

I also have a different opinion on that. I say that you play from buzzer to buzzer, whistle to whistle. If you don't want to get embarrassed, play harder.

You don't want to show up your opponent through show boating, but I'm all for showing them up on the court/ice/pitch whatever. When teams that are down that much start forfeiting the rest of the game, I'll think about supporting the idea of bringing your level of effort down between the buzzers.

Wasn't Portland up 29 in the 4th quarter against the Lakers in a western conference finals game 7? There's no such thing as over until it's over.

MindzEye
02-13-2008, 11:41 PM
Carter's a punk, I hope he gets booed in Toronto after he retires. I've never seen a professional athlete punk out like that before. It's a shame that Babcock didn't have the stones to tell Peddie to **** off, and kept Vince here until he decided to play well enough to fetch a decent trade return.

hairnova
02-13-2008, 11:55 PM
Rob Babcock, hahaha, that's a story for another day.

MindzEye
02-14-2008, 01:47 AM
Babcock was the wrong guy to handle moving a pouting star with Richard Peddie standing over his shoulder the whole time to make sure Rob realized how important is was to get out from under Vince's contract.

He was put in a lose-lose situation though. On one hand he had Vince playing like he clearly didn't give a ****, and didn't care enough about his career to rehab injuries properly or do the work necessary to stay health, yet, wanted to be traded. On the other hand, he had Peddie pushing him to get a deal to get Vince out of town (didn't like the negative Pub they were getting) and made getting out of Vince's contract as a whole, one of the prime concerns.

put it together, shake it up and you've got Vince for the William's, Zo, & a few picks. One of the worst trades in recent history. I've always maintained that Glen Grunwold was the the reason for Babcock's demise, and was a much bigger cause of our fall than anything Babcock did.

da_next_kid
02-14-2008, 06:30 AM
Well I've been a fan of Vince ever since he came into the league and I have got to say that I have never seen an athlete with so much wasted talent in my life, he has no fire, no intensity, he severely lacks competitiveness.

I mean right now he doesn't have the lift or the quick first step that made him virtually unguard able earlier on his career.
Hell, he told Sam Mitchell that his heart wasn't in playing for this franchise anymore, so this guy tells his freaking coach that he isn't going to play 100% game in and game out. I also believe he was mistreated by Toronto's media and their fans but after the 04-05 season I can't defend him because he ****ing dogged on the team. They gave him the keys to the franchise, made him an absolute darling of the team and after a few injuries, the stupid fans of Toronto and our management did a 180 and turned on the guy. They took away his input in to the personnel moves, took away his mother's parking spot for crying out loud and they just did a very shitty job of surrounding talent around him, period. We had disaster coaches such as Kevin O'Neill, and when Carter suggested that we hire Dr. J as a GM, we ended up hiring Mr. Disaster. Let's not forget that Vince said that he would have stayed had we fired Richard Peddie who he felt didn't know anything about basketball but had a big say on Basketball side of things.

I think both sides were wrong on this one, but it isn't as black and white as some Toronto fans or Chuck Swirsky would have you believe, who is the biggest piece of shit in this world.

Hoss
02-14-2008, 09:02 AM
It's nice to see Jersey being treated by Kidd and George as the hole that it is.... players not wanting to report, Kidd wanting off... should make Carter feel right at home...

The difference is that he is not the one doing it, and now he sees how destructive that attitude is.... when he sucked out on the raps he brought the whole organization down... gave them the view around the league that it is not the place to be... all because of one choad..... Now he sees that kidd is doing it, and he has single handedly sunk that ship...

apparantley there are rumours of Carter to Indiana for Jermain Oneil.... Who really would want carter now, after seeing him play when he wants and bail when things get tough. That guy is a poon..

mbow30
02-14-2008, 09:34 AM
the stupid fans of Toronto and our management did a 180 and turned on the guy.

bullshit.

the team stopped giving carter input into personnel decisions when he demanded that they hire dr. j (which would have been a stupid move) and that they trade bosh (which would have been ever dumber).

and taking his mom's parking spot? come on. that was because she was a self-righteous bitch and vc was too much of a little bitch to tell her to stfu and stop meddling.

zeke
02-14-2008, 11:14 AM
I really hope this Kidd trade gets done.

If it does, if I'm Colangelo, I'm jumping in with a Ford + 1st round pick + any player (or two) off the roster except for Bosh/Bargnani/Calderon, in exchange for Richard Jefferson.

PlayerToBeNamedLater
02-14-2008, 11:27 AM
I think NJ will keep Jefferson. He's still young enough to be part of the core moving forward.

And, if the the Nets land Harris, they wont really have a need for Ford.

I think Marion is the player to target. A long, athletic SF who can rebound and defend. And the Heat need a PG like Ford. Maybe they can work out a sign and trade in the offseason after Marion opts out of his deal.

zeke
02-14-2008, 11:40 AM
that's a very good call.

although I don't really see Harris as a true PG.

but yeah, Marion would be perfect for us, especially with his rebounding ability, and no doubt the Heat would love the look of a Wade-Ford backcourt.

PlayerToBeNamedLater
02-14-2008, 11:49 AM
A Ford + Rasho + Pick for Marion deal would make sense for the Heat because they get a good young PG, an expiring contract and serviceable centre in Rasho and a draft pick.

This type of deal would have to be done in the offseason because Marion has a trade restriction right now because he was just recently traded.

C Bargnani
PF Bosh
SF Marion
SG Parker
PG Calderon

zeke
02-14-2008, 11:52 AM
I think they'd probably want us to take Williams back in the deal, no?

I don't think they want to be paying $9 mil to their backup PG.

Volcanologist
02-14-2008, 11:59 AM
Oh man, would Matrix be exactly what we need or what?

Alfamale
02-14-2008, 12:04 PM
the matrix would be perfect, but i don't see him going anywhere.

zeke
02-14-2008, 12:04 PM
actually, with Williams' contract off the books next season, they would probably want to keep him.