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LeafNation
08-25-2008, 03:18 PM
for the 08/09 season. Motivated by the bills vs steelers thread, it's probably a good idea to just have an NFL thread.

I am very excited for this season coming up. And with the season soon approaching, I would like to start out this thread by making a few bold predictions.. Here's my first one.

The Browns I believe overachieved last year.. While certain guys had their coming out party last season (Braylon Edwards as an example), I think the team takes a big step back this year.. Looking at their schedule, and they have a much more difficult schedule this year because of their improved record last season, I can't see better than 5-11 or 6-10 for Cleveland.

Look at this schedule-

Steelers X2 (Pittsburgh just owns them now)
Cowboys, Giants, Eagles, Redskins (NFC east, are you kidding me?)
Colts, Jaguars, Titans, Texans
Bills, Broncos

meshie
08-25-2008, 04:03 PM
I'm going to the Bills-Jets game November 2... SOOO excited... will be my first NFL game. :D

Who do you think is the team to beat this year, LN? (From the bit I've seen in preseason, not my Colts. =/)

LeafNation
08-25-2008, 04:12 PM
I'm going to the Bills-Jets game November 2... SOOO excited... will be my first NFL game. :D

Just great, my 2 most hated teams. I hope they BOTH lose. LOL.

Your first NFL game huh? Make sure you get there early. NFL games are an "event" Get there 2 hours early and tailgate with the fans.. Barbecues are burning in the parking lot, people drinking beer, having a great time. People throwing the football around..

Great atmosphere.. Nothing like it in sports... BTW, you're not going to the Miami-Buffalo game in December @ the Skydome? It's the first regular season game ever in Canada.. THAT is going to be an event.. Glad that my Dolphins will be playing in the first ever reg season game in Canada.


Who do you think is the team to beat this year, LN? (From the bit I've seen in preseason, not my Colts. =/)

Just a bit too early, hard to tell. I will give my predictions a couple days before the reguar season starts.. Still, with cuts, injuries happening all over the place ( The Rams just lost their starting center and guard, so LeCharles bentlley is going there with a shot knee etc).

And of course, the Giants losing a good DE in a season ending injury the other night, as just a couple examples.. Final cuts are coming Aug 30th, and some good players get cut and move on to other teams.. Some trade rumors are swirling.. For instance the stud WR out of Arizona, Anquan Boldin wants out of Arizona.. Miami and Dallas are rumored as interested. If Dallas gets him, WOW, they'd be my pick right off the bat.. Boldin is like a Michael Irvin in his prime. Same type of player.. I think Boldin is the fastest player to ever get 400 receptions (or something like that)..

So there are still moves teams will make.. But early on, in the AFC, I like the Chargers. Only question is if their coaching can hold up imo. The team itself though, is awesome, and they have good depth at key positions.

LeafNation
08-25-2008, 04:34 PM
By the way mesh, I wouldn't worry about the preseason when it comes to the Colts.. When they won the super bowl, they were 1-3 in the preseason ( or was it 0-4?).

Now the Colts with the great Bill Polian running the show are the epitome of how to build a successful NFL franchise.. All 22 of their starters for their super bowl team spent their entire careers with the Colts.. They had some number of 45 of their starting 48 being drafted by the team.. That's very impressive.

The Steelers won the super bowl with 18 of their 22 starters drafted by the team. The Pats won a super bowl with 85% of their starters drafted by the team.

That's why I am very excited what Bill Parcells and Jeff Ireland the GM are doing in Miami.. They built that good team in Dallas. They know how to draft well. And we had a terrific draft this year.. Bodes well for the future.

Quick turnarounds happen often in the NFL.. When Bill Parcells took over the Jets, they were 1-15 the year before.. PArcells took them to 9-7 in his first year, and in his 2nd year took the Jets to 12-4 and into the AFC championship game..

In 2001 the Panthers were an abysmal 1-15 team.. They got Rodney Peete, a veteran QB to hold the fort, and a guy who knew the system (similar to what Miami did with Pennington for a ball control power offense).. A guy who the young players respected back there... Then what Carolina did was build from the lines on back..

Two years after that 1-15 season , Carolina made the super bowl in 2003 with a young QB ( Jake Dellhomme).. A similar QB style to the rookie Chad Henne in Miami, who is also similar in style to Matt Hasselback.. So those are just 2 examples of some teams that have made quick turnarounds in a couple of years. But you need the right guys in charge to make it happen.

Factinista
08-25-2008, 04:55 PM
Let's go San Deigoooo. Gates and Hardwick are a little injured though, and Merriman might miss the entire year :(

LeafNation
08-25-2008, 04:58 PM
Totally forgot about the Merriman thing. Remember reading it on footballsfuture... That will hurt, definitely. Not an easy player to replace..

mbow30
08-25-2008, 04:59 PM
merriman is an enormous blow. he's almost as important as LT. of course, if rivers can bounce back from the knee surgery and also take a few steps forward (as a young QB coming off some big-game playoff experience should) they should still be alright. rivers has been good for them but not great. he has the potential to change that and he is going to have to this season with merriman out and gates hobbled.



as for the browns, i would agree that anderson overachieved last year; i don't know why they gave him that contract. but they have a pretty good wildcard in brady quinn so if things aren't going smoothly he can be inserted and is good enough to turn things around, even as a first year starter.

Locke
08-25-2008, 05:08 PM
The Saints should be a force this season.

If you want to talk football,you can also sign up to this forum :http://www.footballboards.com/

Factinista
08-25-2008, 05:08 PM
During the playoffs last year Rivers finally started to show why everyone was blowing their load on him during his draft year, it was nice to finally see him shine.

But yeah, If Merriman is out that is going to really suck. Aside from the fact that he's one of the best defensive players in the game, he's fun as hell to watch. Typical luck for that team.

Gates and Hardwick should be ready to go sooner than later though.

And hopefully LT is still LT. Looked to me by the end of last year like he might have passed his best before date.

LeafNation
08-25-2008, 05:12 PM
When I think of the Browns, it's not so much their offense. They have some impressive skill position players and a good line. Love their TE by the way,.. No matter who the QB is there, they are going to move the ball.

It just has to do with their defense,. Their defense is porous against the run.. And with that schedule, and teams who can run the ball on them with some very good offensive lines, and some stud backs on those teams ( such as The Jags with Fred Taylor and Maurice Jones-Drew, Dallas with Felix and Barber, The Eagles with Westbrook, The Steelers with Parker and Mendenhall , The Giants with Jacobs and Bradshaw, The Titans with White and Johnson, the Colts with everyone on offense etc), they will have a very difficult time stopping teams getting off the field and trying to give the ball back to that offense of theirs.

Montana
08-25-2008, 05:31 PM
The Browns are one of the more overhyped teams this offseason......they seem to be everyone's pick to do big things (both ESPN and CNNSI have been drooling over them all offseason).....but from where I'm standing they seem poised to be one of the teams that has the biggest drop off.

Although everyone is looking mainly at my Jets acquisition of Brett Favre, I think they did some great things this offseason which will have larger impacts on their success than Favre will.........The addition of defensive lineman Kris Jenkins gives us our first real NT for our 3-4 defense, since the Mangini came on board........fully healthy he's one of the best 3 or 4 defensive tackles in the league, and should do incredible things to open things up for our linebacking crew.........which has a great core now, led in the middle by David Harris and Eric Barton.....and solid passrushers on the outside with Calvin Pace (another offseason addition) and the combo of Bryan Thomas and Vernon Gholston (who'll get eased into the lineup mainly on passing downs)

With all that pressure coming from up front.......it should also lead to our star DB's Darrelle Revis and Kerry Rhodes getting more int's off of QB's forced mistakes.

Also on offense we added LG Alan Faneca (perenial pro-bowler), RT Damien Woody and FB Tony Richardson all of which should help out our running game significantly and give Favre plenty of time, to do some damage.

(For the Fantasy guys in the crowd, Thomas Jones is going to put up fantastic numbers behind this reconfigured O-line, which already had 2 studs in Nick Mangold and D'Brickshaw Ferguson)......



All of this.....plus the addition of Brett Favre, should position the Jets to be a legitimate sleeper in the AFC this year..........a 10-6 or 11-5 season isn't out of the question at all.

LeafNation
08-25-2008, 05:39 PM
This is for axlsalinger and the other dolphins fans on this board.. I found a nice little 8 minute highlight video of the game saturday night (link below)..

And this is why I love this new young offensive line.. Take a look at about 52 seconds into the video, take a look at the toss sweep to the left with Ricky Williams... Look at the right guard #66 Donald Thomas on that play.. Look at him chip the DE first, then look at him go to the 2nd level and just toss the Linebacker to the ground like a flea.. Then look at him go downfield following the play and shove another D-lineman at the end of the run... He also screams and yells at the d-lineman shaking his head after the play is over for good measure.. Now THAT's some SERIOUS attitude from your O-line....You can't miss it here starting at 52 seconds in-

http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=10ok2sl&s=4

Also take a look at 2 minutes in, it's a solo closeup shot of Donald Thomas pulling creating holes.. The announcers even mention this guy's extraordinary POWER !! VERY IMPRESSIVE rookie ! He was a STEAL in the 6th round this year. A TOTAL steal.. Some veterans on our D-line have mentioned after practice that Donald Thomas has the strongest punch they have ever seen.. He also ran the 2nd fastest 40 at the NFL combine for lineman.. And he had the fastest 10 yard split of any lineman drafted at 1.72. I see BIG things for him and this nice young O-line Miami has built.. It ALL STARTS up front.. And we have some very talented guys up front with an attitude and mean streak ( something I haven't seen in many years).. Perfect place for a rebuilding team to start from.

Long-Smiley-Satele-Thomas-Carey = Finally a real O-line in Miami that we can be proud of. Thank you Bill Parcells.

ps-- By the way, Leafman101, you mentioned in the other thread that you didn't see Pennington throw a pass outside the hashmarks, well watch at 3 minutes into that video above, pass to Ginn near the sideline.. And oh yeah, the perfect nice long TD pass to Peelle (about 5 minutes in) that was called back because he bobbled the ball ;)

Montana
08-25-2008, 05:42 PM
Williams has looked fantastic behind that O-Line this pre-season.......him and/or Brown are gonna studs for the Phins this season.

LeafNation
08-25-2008, 07:01 PM
Williams has looked fantastic behind that O-Line this pre-season.......him and/or Brown are gonna studs for the Phins this season.

I am a big Ricky fan.. The guy, if he played every season, could have potentially been the best running back in history.. He has no weaknesses.. Tremendous vision, unbelieveable power, great speed, a tremendous "feel" for the game and finding the open holes. Great speed to the outside and his ability to sucker in safeties is unbelievable.. Very explosive, a great ability to make something out of nothing, and has a good ability of catching the ball out of the backfield. Really, he has no weaknesses.

The good thing about him now is he is in the best shape of his life, he has been at the Dolphin complex all summer really dedicated and training like a mad man... He is really a young 31 when you consider he has only had 6 snaps in the NFL since 2005.. His body hasn't taken the beating of most players his age as he took a few years off.

When you're bored, take a look at his 2002 season when he won the NFL rushing title. .I watched it all last night, and it gave me goosebumps in regards to the upcoming season.. He's Very impressive. It's a treasure seeing this guy run the ball.

Ricky Williams' 2002 NFL season

Part1- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jc68d2vEXM

Part2- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHeR7TWdW-Y

Part3 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4wpP1llLfc

Part4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2msR7SLqR2M

Part5- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtNxj3o6Y0w

Kritter
08-25-2008, 07:04 PM
I am a big Ricky fan.. The guy, if he played every season, could have easily been the best running back in history..




:smilielol5:

Factinista
08-25-2008, 07:04 PM
What happened with the Argo's? He was terrible for them.

LeafNation
08-25-2008, 07:08 PM
:smilielol5:

Okay, you're right.. Maybe not "easily". I definitely agree there.. Let me replace that word with "Potentially".. Edited accordingly.

JaysCyYoung
08-25-2008, 07:10 PM
I think Jim Brown, Barry Sanders, Emmit Smith and LaDainian Tomlinson would have something to say to that Ricky Williams comment.

Kritter
08-25-2008, 07:14 PM
Okay, you're right.. Maybe not "easily". I definitely agree there.. Let me replace that word with "Potentially".. Edited acccordingly.

He potentially could have been a great back , not potentially the best ever.

I was a huge fan in college. That trade that was made for him by Ditka was insane and probably part of his problems, expectations were too high (no pun intended,lol)

Kritter
08-25-2008, 07:19 PM
I think Jim Brown, Barry Sanders, Emmit Smith and LaDainian Tomlinson would have something to say to that Ricky Williams comment.

Not to mention Erik Dickerson, Earl Campbell, Tony Dorsett, Walter Payton, Marcus Allen, OJ, Marshall Faulk , etc etc

LeafNation
08-25-2008, 07:22 PM
I think Jim Brown, Barry Sanders, Emmit Smith and LaDainian Tomlinson would have something to say to that Ricky Williams comment.

Smith IMO was overrated. Remember, the guy ran behind the best offensive line in the history of the game.. That line opening holes that you could drive a mack truck through.. It was a sick line. The best line I have ever seen.

Stick Ricky behind that Dallas line of the 90's ( and I am talking about the 2002 and 2003 version of Ricky when he lost weight , not the larger version in New Orleans), and Ricky would have rewritten the record books for yards in a season.. No argument from me regarding the other backs listed. Awesome backs, no doubt.

Adrian Peterson, a rookie last year who the NFL world loved, ran behind the best O-line in the league (people forget about that). I mean, even Chestor Taylor can look great behind that O-line in Minnesota. A line means A LOT

worm
08-25-2008, 07:24 PM
OJ vs Ricky...now that would be fun

LeafNation
08-25-2008, 07:29 PM
OJ vs Ricky...now that would be fun

I don't get that.. The dude liked Pot. so what.. He has always been a good citizen, and a peaceful guy.. It's not like the guy has been caught with a gun in his car, doesn;t get in bar fights like so many NFL players do, hasn't gotten caught for drunk driving (like so many players do).. Ricky Williams has never put himself in position to cause harm to others in society. So I really don't understand that ridiculous comparison there

worm
08-25-2008, 07:32 PM
it was a joke
sorry good sir

mbow30
08-25-2008, 07:40 PM
What happened with the Argo's? He was terrible for them.

he wasn't terrible, he just got hurt.

but two things happened:

first, he underestimated CFL talent. there are some good players in the league who don't get their due. they were bigger and faster than he thought they would be.

but the big one was the second (because the shock that the players are better than he thought should have worn off after a few games). it took williams a while to get accustomed to pre-snap motion. the running back and receivers can start their movement before the centre releases the ball and williams just didn't have that timing down.

LeafNation
08-25-2008, 07:43 PM
Speaking of backs, a very underrated back was Roger Craig. He was excellent , and very good at catching the ball out of the backfield.. I used to really enjoy watching him play.

LeafNation
08-25-2008, 07:48 PM
I just did a youtube check, for you youngins who never saw Craig play, here is a little clip..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OZxpIVWDdM

He ran AND received for over 1000 yards in a season.. I also loved his high knee action when he ran.. He was an exceptional athlete

theREALkoreaboy
08-25-2008, 08:00 PM
Smith IMO was overrated. Remember, the guy ran behind the best offensive line in the history of the game.. That line opening holes that you could drive a mack truck through.. It was a sick line. The best line I have ever seen.



i was a HUGE cowboys fan, a HUGE emmitt fan, and even i have to agree with this. that offensive line was completely and totally dominant, and it made a very good back a hall-of-famer. emmitt had massive holes to run through and a QB/WR tandem in aikman-irvin that made it impossible for defences to simply key on the running game.

TheCountofMonteCristo
08-25-2008, 08:04 PM
Funny, Smith is overrated, Michael Irvin was overrated and Troy Aikman was also overrated.

It's amazing they ever won a game let alone three SBs in four years.

LeafNation
08-25-2008, 08:08 PM
Let's not forget about Jay Novacek at TE and Alvin Harper on the outside. That Dallas offensive line, which was totally dominant, and all those passing options, with a very good QB, was just WAY too much for any defense to handle. SCARY good.

One thing is for sure, that offensive line was NEVER "overrated".. I challenge anyone to find a O-line that was THAT dominant in the history of the NFL.. I mean, as soon as they got inside the 10, it was over. Just run it up the middle with those studs on the O-line creating MASSIVE holes into the endzone. That O-line made defensive fronts in the NFL look like junior varsity teams..

LeafNation
08-25-2008, 08:27 PM
Hey guys, speaking of yesteryear, I found a great youtube of THE ENTIRE superbowl 13 in Miami ( Steelers vs Cowboys).. When you are bored, watch the entire broadcast here ( I watched it all last week)-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30Ckc8OHbgU (that's part one, you can see the rest of the parts to the right there)

Now THAT is some nice stuff.. Jack Lambert was a beast. Same for Randy White for the cowboys. A VERY physical game... Quite a few legends in that Super Bowl .. The whole broadcast is there, right from the national anthem at the beginning, to the halftime show, all the way through to the end..

Just great to watch many decades later.. Look at those commercials and the music being played.. Funny stuff. That Steeler team of the mid to late 70's was really good ( I'm sure Blk'nGld will thank me for this).

PS- they also have all of Super bowl 10 there on youtube ( Steelers and Cowboys again, and again from Miami.. just search for "Super Bowl X") :thumbsup(22):

TheCountofMonteCristo
08-25-2008, 08:33 PM
Why would I want to watch a game my team lost?

LeafNation
08-25-2008, 08:42 PM
After thinking about it further, the only 2 Offensive Lines that I would put in the same sentence with that Cowboys line, is the infamous "Hogs" of the Redskins in the 80's, and the Miami Dolphins line of the early 70's with Larry Little, Bob Kuechenberg and company... Maybe in the same sentence, but still those lines were a notch below that Dallas line of the 90's.

The Los Angeles Rams also had a hell of a line when they had Eric Dickerson and Dan Fouts. Jackie Slater and a few monsters on that line made life miserable for defenses. But they are a slight notch below those Miami and Redskins O-lines.

meshie
08-25-2008, 08:49 PM
merriman is an enormous blow. he's almost as important as LT. of course, if rivers can bounce back from the knee surgery and also take a few steps forward (as a young QB coming off some big-game playoff experience should) they should still be alright. rivers has been good for them but not great. he has the potential to change that and he is going to have to this season with merriman out and gates hobbled.

Yea... this is pretty evident right now. =/

LN, my friend is a huge Jets fan. I'll be cheering on the Bills just to piss him off. I feel dirty saying that, but it's the lesser of two evils. The game at the dome is gonna be great... wanna take me? :D :p

mbow30
08-25-2008, 09:06 PM
i love emmitt.. but his stats are definitely inflated by that line.

leafnation, another o-line to add to that would be the bronco's line from their SB years...

LeafNation
08-25-2008, 09:08 PM
Yes. Good point. Although undersized, and not the traditional way to build a line in the modern era.. Those Bronco lines were very quick.. They perfected the "zone blocking scheme". You can stick any no-name running back back there and he would gain 1000+ yards, quite easily... One thing though, they were notorious for chop blocking and taking some knees out in the process, heh

Montana
08-25-2008, 09:18 PM
I don't know how anyone can see my poor lowly Jets as the greater of two evils.

If there was ever a TML of the NFL........it'd be us.

leafman101
08-25-2008, 09:30 PM
What good running back ran for yards behind a shitty line? Barry Sanders is probably the only one I can think of, in recent memory at least. And he is maybe the best back ever.

It doesn't matter how much talent you have as a back. You need a good line.

leafman101
08-25-2008, 09:33 PM
.fully healthy he's one of the best 3 or 4 defensive tackles in the league, and should do incredible things to open things up for our linebacking crew.........which has a great core now, led in the middle by David Harris and Eric Barton.....a

Everyone here should remember the name David Harris. Guy is a beast.

LeafNation
08-25-2008, 09:53 PM
Harris is a beast. Probably the Jets best defensive player.. Gholston, the Jets #1 pick, has looked awful in camp though.. He never played the 3-4 OLB position before, and he looks lost in the Jets 3-4 D ( remember, he played the 4-3 end position in college, and he is just too small to be an end in a 3-4 defense)..

As far as Kris Jenkins is concerned, while he has been a beast in camp, many Jets blogs said he is simply "unblockable", and he has been going up against a good center in Mangold ( the thing with Jenkins though is he has been injury prone in Carolina, but he is very talented)..

But I can't wait to see the 350 pound Jenkins taking himself out of the game, huffing and puffing to the sidelines in the 3rd quarter on Sept 7th in Miami ( with that crazy CRAZY intense heat and humidity at that time of year- especially when Ricky and Ronnie will get 40 carries between them for that contest)..

That game should be a barn burner in week 1 with all the superlatives involved ( Parcells who used to be with the Jets, Pennington in Miami now, and of course, the Favre situation)

Montana
08-25-2008, 10:14 PM
Everyone here should remember the name David Harris. Guy is a beast.

He was incredible for us last year, and with Jenkins creative space for him, I suspect he'll enter the upper echelon of MLB's this season.

Alot of people took note last year......but this year, I think everyone will.


Harris is a beast. Probably the Jets best defensive player..

I think Kerry Rhodes is right up there with Harris, in the rankings for our best defensive player.



Gholston, the Jets #1 pick, has looked awful in camp though.. He never played the 3-4 OLB position before, and he looks lost in the Jets 3-4 D ( remember, he played the 4-3 end position in college, and he is just too small to be an end in a 3-4 defense)..

Gholston's performance thus far has been expected by many of us.........and all for reasons you'd pointed out.

He was a project pick for us........and someone we hope can bring intense preassure from the outside, and a hybrid backer for us, in the mold of a Richard Seymour.

That said though, he's got a long ways to go to learn the in's and out's of the pro game, and more specifically our 3-4 system and what it's going to take for him to be effective in it.

This season, all we're expecting from him, is to be a situational backer this year, and bring a very strong rush pressence, when we need it.......if he can do that, while picking up the finer points of the game we need him to, and make solid steps towards being a well rounded player down the road. We'll be happy.


As far as Kris Jenkins is concerned, while he has been a beast in camp, many Jets blogs said he is simply "unblockable", and he has been going up against a good center in Mangold ( the thing with Jenkins though is he has been injury prone in Carolina, but he is very talented)..


Jenkins is the real deal.......no doubt about it. I think he's by far the single most important acquisition of the Jets offseason, and if he can stay healthy, and bring the high calibre play he's capable of.........I expect huge things from our defense this year.

That said........if he gets hurt.......we're f@cked.


That game should be a barn burner in week 1 with all the superlatives involved ( Parcells who used to be with the Jets, Pennington in Miami now, and of course, the Favre situation)

It's especially huge for the Jets, because after you guys we have the Pats and then the Chargers.......and we can't afford to come out of the gate 0-3.



Question LN.........as a Phins fan, what are your thoughts on the Jets O-Line as a whole, with the development of Ferguson and Mangold.....the additions of Faneca and Woody......(which gives us four former first round picks on the line). and Brandon Moore making strides last year......where would you rank this O-Line overall?

theREALkoreaboy
08-25-2008, 10:31 PM
i never said aikman or irvin were overrated. anyone who saw aikman play in that NFC championship game against the niners- the one they lost- could never say he was overrated. aikman was absolutely heroic in that game. a true warrior and champion. and so was irvin.

LeafNation
08-26-2008, 03:15 AM
To try to answer your last question there Montana. And I will give my best effort to give you an honest opinion..... I will say this, being a Miami fan and the Dolphins taking the same free agency route in previous years that you just took- And please don't try to take this personally since we are fans of opposing teams ( and opposing "RIVAL" teams).

But let me say that Miami has been notorious for getting the good high priced free agent plugins.. In the mid 90's, in 1994, the Dolphins racked up a ton of good free agents and threw the money around to try to buy a super bowl for Marino.. Bringing in guys like Steve Emtman et al. We signed a lot of free agents that year, EXPECTATIONS WERE HIGH....

Well it blew up in our face and we went 9-7. It also ended Don Shula's reign as Miami's head coach. The fans just kicked him out of town because the expectations were so high..
(BTW, Don Shula-- the greatest coach ever, and who was a coach in Miami for an astounding 26 years, and the winningest coach in NFL history with the most wins).

The free agent route rarely works in the NFL IMO.. The dolphins have tried to plug holes via the free agent route this decade, and it just doesn't work.. I am talking from experience here, and being a fan of a team that tried to use the free agency route to try to "buy" a Superbowl..

Jimmy Johnson brought in a veteran Kevin Gogan from Dallas (and a bunch of other free agents for the team) for the Offensive line in Miami (similar to your Faneca move). And Kevin Gogan wasn't nearly the same guy he was in Dallas.. Alan Faneca, while a good run blocker, has been average at best pass blocking.. I saw a stat, and of all the pressure Roethlisberger received, Faneca's man was in on Roethlisberger the most ( maybe Blk'GldBabe can vouche for that).. One other thing to note is, Pittsburgh Steelers players who have gone free agency to other teams have busted.. The list is very long for Steeler free agents who went to other teams who did little to nothing at all ( Blk'NgldBabe can vouche for that as well).

Dave Wannstedt in Miami this decade, paid a lot to bring in free agents. And it didn't work ( it backfired). He also brought in veterans via the trade route giving up valuable 2nd round picks in the process ( which reminds me of your Kris Jenkins move giving up picks to Carolina to acquire him this summer).

I thought you GREATLY overpaid for Calvin Pace in free agency, the guy only had ONE good year last year, and it seems like he played for a contract. And you paid him $40+ million with a $20+ million signing bonus. That's NUTS IMO.. That is a potential salary cap killer in the future, as well as your other moves smothering your cap flexibility in future years.

Keep in mind, the Colts won the super bowl with all 22 starters drafted by the team, and 45 of the 48 players drafted by them. They didn't take the free agency route.

The Steelers, in their last superbowl victory, had 18 of their 22 starters drafted by them. The Patriots, 85% of their starting 22 in a recent super bowl were drafted by the team.. See a pattern here? I just don't believe in the free agent route you guys took. I also think you screwed up your salary cap for upcoming seasons with those mega signings this offseason.. And if this is Favre's last season, which it likely is, you have a huge hole at the QB position to boot.

As far as week 1 is concerned, the pressure is all on the Jets coming to Miami.. Miami has been VERY loose this preseason playing with tremendous emotion, emotion like a college football team has.. I see them really ready in week 1. They are just playing lights out enthusiastic football out there- on both sides of the ball.

Now ANYTHING can happen in this game of football on any given Sunday.. If the NY Jets win that opener in Miami I will be surprised. Not shocked, but I will be surprised.. ANYTHING can happen. Nobody in the world thought the NY Giants would win the Super Bowl last year after the garbage start they had last season. NOBODY guessed that.. One advantage for the Jets is, after their first 3 games, you guys have an easy schedule. So that also has to be taken into account.

Back to week 1.. Keep in mind that 3 years ago under Saban's first year in Miami , in Miami's home opener, Denver came to Miami in week 1 being being 10 point favorites.. Miami was BIG underdogs in their home opener in early September in that heat and humidity... Well, Miami won the game by about 20 points in a rout shocking everyone.. To a man, Bronco players said that they were TOTALLY worn out by the middle of the 3rd quarter in their post-game interviews.. You just DON'T UNDERSTAND how suffocating that heat is in Miami at that time of year. And remember, the Miami-Jets game on Sept 7th is at 1 o'clock when it's hottest. Just like that Denver game.

While the Jets have owned Miami in recent years, keep in mind that the schedule makers had the Jets playing in Miami later in the fall, in November and December when it's A LOT cooler.. And a few night games thrown in there making it even cooler down there.

BTW, that Denver team was damn good that year.. They went on to win big games in following weeks after getting blown out in Miami in week 1. The Broncos ended up in the AFC championship game that same year when the Steelers won the superbowl..

I just think that the heat and humidity of early September is a huge advantage for Miami... I have followed every player interview on MiamiDolphins.com (in the aquavision box in there), and all the new players, from Jake Long on down stated how shocked they were practicing in that heat. Jake Long said that he was losing 7 to 8 pounds a day in practice in that heat ( and had to replenish himself every night by eating a lot). I just think that the heat at that time of year isn't something that you can get used to in one Sunday. It will be a tremendous advantage for Miami against the Jets in week 1 as Miami practices in that heat everyday.. Now if it rains, or if there is some anomaly in the weather patterns that day, it's a different story..

Regardless of all that, it should be a barnburner in Miami vs the Jets on opening day.. CBS has agreed to televise the game nationally. There are alot of superlatives involved in that game- with Parcells being an ex Jets coach, being a New Yorker himself, and now being the head honcho in Miami.. With the ex-Jet Chad Pennington being Miami's QB (and with him knowing your defense since he practiced against that Jets defense in camp this year etc), and with Pennington wanting revenge-- and his teammates playing hard for him to exact that revenge on the Jets. And of course the Favre saga. Plus it's a hell of a division rivalry.. It will be a war.. I haven't been this excited for a home opener in over a decade, I can't wait.:cheers2:

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/pro--sports/upfront.jpg
It all starts Up Front. Thank you Bill Parcells for building a real O-line in Miami.. It's been a LONG time coming. A long long Jake Long time.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/pro--sports/00Signature.jpg

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/pro--sports/00jake01.jpg

And oh yeah, thanks Bill for the QB from Michigan as well. FINALLY a future QB to look forward to after the Marino years-
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/pro--sports/picks1and2.jpg

LeafNation
08-26-2008, 05:00 AM
BTW, the last time the Jets came to Miami on opening weekend in that heat and humidity of early September, Miami beat the Jets by the tune of 52-14.

If the Jets somehow win that game in 2 weeks, let me just say that I will think they are for real ( as much as I can't stand the Jets)..

Those conditions are VERY intense if you are not used to it ( I lived in South Florida for many years to know), and especially when you are going up against a team who practices in it everyday. And a team that seems to be 10 times more physical this year, and with a ball control power offense with 2 big strong powerful backs in Ricky Williams and Ronnie Brown.

EDIT- Don't forget that Ricky Williams is 4-1 against the Jets ;) . The NY Jets kicked our asses without him (not in the early September humidity mind you), but that guy makes Miami a different team.

And while I'm at it, why not some pics of Dolphins Training Camp ( I used to go to Miami training camp practices all the time when I lived down there)

Bill Parcells laying the groundwork for success
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/pro--sports/parcells.jpg

Parcells watches every practice
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/pro--sports/Bill3.jpg

and watches and watches
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/pro--sports/BillPractice.jpg

Offensive line drills with starting center Samson Satele in a 3-point stance
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/pro--sports/TheO.jpg

#1 overall pick Left Tackle Jake Long ( #77), and fellow rookie right guard Donald Thomas (#66)
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/pro--sports/OlineShot.jpg

Offensive line drills
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/pro--sports/O2.jpg

Ricky Williams to the left, Ronnie Brown to the right practice holding on to the ball-
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/pro--sports/RickyAndRonnie.jpg

Ricky Williams running through an arm tackle simulator
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/pro--sports/Williams007.jpg

Running backs practice running through different gaps and taking handoffs
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/pro--sports/offenseset.jpg

Team President Bill Parcells and GM Jeff Ireland watching practice
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/pro--sports/bill4.jpg

Backup Offensive line with Chad Henne under center
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/pro--sports/TheO1.jpg

Miami's 2nd round pick and future QB learning the ropes under Pennington
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/pro--sports/HenneThrow.jpg

Blueman
08-26-2008, 12:52 PM
So I'm in an NFL fantasy pool on yahoo that runs tomorrow night. It's a PPR league that has 1 starting QB, 2 RB, 3 WR, a TE, A kicker, and 6 D spots. Can anyone point me to a good fantasy website for the NFL?

leaffan2005
08-26-2008, 01:16 PM
If you are in a money league, I would suggest going to rotoworld.com, and getting the draft guide.

If not, rotoworld has some nice articles that could help you out for your draft.

Blueman
08-26-2008, 01:36 PM
cool thanks leaffan!

blkngldbabe
08-26-2008, 01:43 PM
LN...any concerns over losing some key Defensive players? I know you're pumped about the "New Beginning" WIth Tuna and the O-line etc...but with Taylor and Thomas gone now and Porter maybe out for a few games/season/career with this troublesome back ailment do you trust Charlie Anderson to pick up the slack for Porter and the others to slide in perfect for Taylor and Thomas? I know they are in their twilight years but are savvy vets who knew the system well. Just curious of your take on this.

blkngldbabe
08-26-2008, 01:51 PM
Pffft...really good. Try the BEST.

NFL's top dynasties (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/football/nfl/02/07/top.dynasties/index.html)

NFL's top dynasties
Steelers of the 1970s are No. 1, Pats not far behind
Posted: Monday February 7, 2005 5:54PM; Updated: Tuesday February 8, 2005 8:56AM
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Pittsburgh Steelers
Lynn Swann led the Steelers past the Cowboys in Super Bowl X.
Heinz Kluetmeier/SI

Patriots 24, Eagles 21
Special from the top down
By Peter King
Credit Bill Belichick and the Pats' coaching staff for building a team with a unique hunger for success.
Patriots make their mark
By Don Banks
This year's Super Bowl proves the Pats are among history's best teams.
Snap Judgments: Belichick to HOF
Eagles disappointment
By John Donovan
Eagles will soon look back with regret at all their blown opportunities.
Closer Look: Screens kill Eagles
Broadcast Blog
By Richard Deitsch
Owner-cam and Sir Paul McCartney overload: A minute-by-minute account of FOX's Super Bowl broadcast.
More from SI.com
Drive-by-Drive Analysis | Report Cards
Photo Gallery: Top images from Jacksonville
Complete SI.com Super Bowl Coverage



Mike McAllister, SI.com

1. Pittsburgh Steelers, 1974-79
Four Super Bowl titles in six years was their net worth. But here's another way to look at it -- had it not been for the Steelers, the Cowboys or the Raiders of that era might have ended up among the top-five NFL dynasties. Ten Steelers, including coach Chuck Noll, eventually ended up in the Hall of Fame. "The Steelers had the best grouping of players in the history of the game," ex-49ers coach Bill Walsh said recently. "No question about it."

2. Green Bay Packers, 1961-67
Five NFL titles in seven years, including the first two Super Bowls. A larger-than-life coach in Vince Lombardi (and a larger-than-life win in the Ice Bowl, Lombardi's last game as the Packers coach at Lambeau). Twelve Hall of Famers. No wonder the Packers only lost 20 games in that seven-year span.

3. Dallas Cowboys 1992-95
Three Super Bowl wins in four years -- and yet the Cowboys will always play the what-if game. What if Jimmy Johnson had remained as coach? And what if Jerry Jones had kept his roster intact instead of seeing it raided by free agency? "I don't believe our team was anywhere near finished doing what we could have done," said QB Troy Aikman.

4. San Francisco 49ers, 1981-89
Two Super Bowl wins for Joe Montana. Then two more throwing to Jerry Rice. Montana's the only three-time Super Bowl MVP; Rice will go down as the league's greatest receiver. The 49ers, of course, were more than just those two. And don't forget the NFL's greatest backup QB, new Hall of Famer Steve Young, who led the 49ers to another Super Bowl in the mid-'90s after Montana's departure.

5. New England Patriots, 2001-04
Unlike the first four teams, the Pats are not a team that relies on stars. Just seven position players since '01 have made the Pro Bowl (compared to the '90s Cowboys with 17 Pro Bowl performers). Instead, it's the coaching of Bill Belichick and his staff that sets the Pats apart. But the dynasty talk can wait for later. "Not now, not for me," Belichick said.

6. Cleveland Browns 1946-55
In a 10-year span, Paul Brown's club won seven titles in the AAFC and the NFL. In '50, when the Browns joined the NFL, their first game was against the defending-champion Eagles. Final score? Browns 35, Eagles 10. Enough said.

7. Miami Dolphins, 1971-73
Three straight Super Bowl appearances, with wins in '72 and '73. Their title success takes a backseat to the undefeated '72 season, the NFL's only perfect mark (17-0). That clinking of champagne glasses each fall comes from Miami when the last undefeated team is finally knocked off. They've downed plenty of bubbly since '72.

8. Chicago Bears 1940-43
George Halas' team won three championships and reached the title game in the other year. The Bears' domination is epitomized in their '40 title win when they routed the Washington Redskins 73-0. That made the 37-9 title victory over the New York Giants the next year pale in comparison.

9. Dallas Cowboys 1970-78
In a nine-season span, Tom Landry's Cowboys played in five Super Bowls and won two. Jim O'Brien's field goal denied them in '70, and the Steelers' dynasty cost the Cowboys two other wins. The more impressive number came in playoff appearances -- 18 straight from '66-83.

10. Buffalo Bills, 1990-93
Can you build a dynasty without actually winning a title? If so, say hello to Marv Levy's Bills. No other team has played in four straight Super Bowls. If victories are required, may we suggest the '64-66 Bills, who reached the AFL title game all three years, winning twice.

Best NFL teams of ALL TIME (http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/football/teams/greatest.html)


Greatest NFL teams of all time
Page 2 staff


Football season is nearly upon us, so Page 2 thought it would be a good time to stir up the debate about which team is the greatest of all time.

William Perry
William "The Refrigerator" Perry shuffles into the end zone in Super Bowl XX.
We've compiled our list below, but we want to hear what you think. Check out our list, then see how our readers ranked their choices for the greatest NFL team of all time. And be sure to vote in the poll to crown the greatest NFL team in history.

1. 1985 Bears
It was, undeniably, cocky for the Bears to record the "Super Bowl Shuffle" video before the playoffs even started, but, to paraphrase an old saying, it ain't cocky if you can back it up.

The 1985 Bears were QBed by the punky, and effective, Jim McMahon. The running attack? Sweetness and, at times, the Fridge. Defense? Impenetrable. The Bears finished the regular season with a 15-1 record, scoring 456 points while allowing only 198.

And they blew through the playoffs, shutting out the Giants 21-0 and then the Rams 24-0 for the NFC title. After the Bears demolished the Pats 46-10 in the Super Bowl, Patriots guard Ron Wooten said, "Before the end, it kind of felt like we were the team that the Globetrotters play all the time."

2. 1972 Dolphins
The Dolphins want recognition as the greatest team of all time simply because they went through the regular season and the playoffs undefeated, ending up with a 17-0 record. We don't deny this is a great accomplishment -- a singular one, in fact. But this is, ultimately, a thin argument.

Consider, for example, that the Dolphins played one of the easiest schedules in modern NFL history -- the opposition had a combined winning percentage under .400. Unlike the 1985 Bears, the Dolphins didn't stroll through the playoffs. They beat the Steelers in the AFC title game by only four points, 21-17, and were underdogs going into the Super Bowl against the Redskins, who they defeated 14-7. Undefeated underdogs? That means you're not beaten, but you are beatable. We salute the greatness of head coach Don Shula, QB Bob Griese, Larry Csonka, Mercury Morris, Jim Kiick, Garo Yepremian, et al. But the Bears would have beaten them in a head-to-head matchup.

Paul Hornung
Paul Hornung helped power Green Bay's potent offense.
3. 1962 Packers
What a team: Vince Lombardi, Bart Starr, Paul Hornung, Jim Taylor, Max McGee and Boyd Dowler, a great offensive line, the power sweep, and a defense that held opponents to less than 11 points per game.

The preseason foreshadowed what would come -- the Pack got through the six-game exhibition schedule without a loss. Then they got going for real, winning their first four regular season games by the lopsided combined total of 109-14. The Packers added six more wins before losing their 11th game to the Lions. That's 16 straight. In their Nov. 11 contest against Philly, they racked up 628 yards on offense, while holding the Eagles to only 54. That's humiliation.

In the NFL championship game against the Giants, linebacker Ray Nitschke almost single-handedly shut down Y.A. Tittle's offense, and Green Bay triumphed 16-7.

Mark Rypien
Mark Rypien threw for 292 yards and 2 TDs to earn MVP honors in Super Bowl XXVI.
4. 1991 Redskins
As ESPN contributor Eddie Epstein has noted, you can look at two stats to get a pretty good idea of just how great a team is: yards gained per pass attempt, and yards allowed per pass attempt. The 1991 'Skins topped the NFL in each category, with Mark Rypien averaging 8.5 yards per attempt, while his colleagues on Washington's defense allowed only 6 yards per attempt.

Rypien's targets? Art Monk, who caught 71 passes for 1,049 yards, and Gary Clark, who averaged almost 20 yards per catch, gaining 1,340 yards on 70 receptions. Washington was also good on the ground, with Earnest Byner and Ricky Ervins combining for 1,708 yards.

The 'Skins outscored their opponents 485-224, and they had a tough schedule. After going 14-2, they romped through the NFC playoffs, beating the Falcons 24-7 and demolishing the Lions 41-10 on their way to the Super Bowl. In the Big Game, the 'Skins beat the cursed early-1990s Bills 37-24.

5. 1999 Rams
Was there anything more exciting during the 1999 season than watching the Rams' grocery-clerk led offense? The Rams scored 526 points during their 13-3 regular season, an average of almost 33 points per game. Kurt Warner threw 41 TD passes on his way to a 109.2 QB rating, and Marshall Faulk ran for 1,381 yards (an average of 5.5 yards per carry) and caught 87 passes for another thousand yards?

Kurt Warner
Kurt Warner led a Rams offesne that averaged nearly 33 points a game in 1999.
The defense wasn't too shabby, either, allowing only 15 points per game, fourth in the NFL. In the playoffs, the Rams proved they could win high-scoring ballgames (they beat the Vikings 49-37 in the divisional playoff), low-scoring ballgames (they beat the Bucs 11-6 for the NFC title), and a rare the-hell-with-the-dip Super Bowl over the Titans 23-16.

6. 1989 49ers
Joe Montana completed more than 70 percent of his passes and threw for an average of 9 yards for every attempted pass. That's partially because he had two great targets: wide receiver Jerry Rice, who snagged 82 passes for 1,483 yards, and wide receiver John Taylor, who caught 60 passes for 1,077 yards.

The Niners were also effective on the ground (Roger Craig rushed for 1,000-plus yards), and their pass defense was one of the best in the league. Just how good was this team? Before they faced the Broncos in Super Bowl XXIV, Terry Bradshaw made his famous prediction: "There is no way the 49ers can lose. It could be 55-3 by halftime." He wasn't far off the mark. The 49ers led by 27-3 at the half, and went on to win 55-10.

7. 1979 Steelers
It's hard to decide which was the best of the four Steelers teams that won Super Bowls in the 1970s, but we'll take the '79 edition, when Pittsburgh's offense was most potent and the defense was still going strong.

The Steelers were the NFL's best offensive team in 1979: Terry Bradshaw threw for 3,724 yards and 26 TDs, Franco Harris averaged 4.4 yards per carry on his way to 1,186 yards on the ground, and Rocky Bleier and Sidney Thornton combined for 1,019 yards. And Lynn Swann and John Stallworth were formidable threats at WR. The Steelers went 12-4 during the regular season and beat the Rams 31-19 in the Super Bowl.

8. 1994 49ers
In 1994, Steve Young answered the critics who said he couldn't quite fill the shoes of Joe Montana. That season, Young led what may have been the greatest offense in NFL history, completing 70.3 percent of his passes for 3,969 yards and 35 TDs.

His main target, was, of course, Jerry Rice, who caught 112 passes for a league-leading 1,499 yards and 13 TDs, Ricky Watters caught 66 passes coming out of the backfield and TE Brent Jones caught 49 passes and scored nine TDs. The 49ers finished the regular season with a 13-3 record. In three playoff games, the 49ers scored 131 points -- an average of 43.7 a game, and romped to a 49-26 Super Bowl win over the Chargers. Oh, and the defense wasn't too shabby either -- it was ranked sixth in the NFL in 1994.

9. 1996 Packers
Green Bay had it all in 1996 -- the best offense and the best defense in the NFL. Brett Favre, who was named NFL MVP in 1996, completed almost 60 percent of his passes for 3,899 yards and 39 TDs. And he was ably backed up by Jim McMahon, who completed 75 percent of his four passes.

After their 13-3 regular season, the Pack didn't have too much trouble on the way to their Super Bowl victory over the Patriots in New Orleans -- Green Bay scored 100 points in three playoff games and their average margin of victory was 17-plus points.

10. 1971 Cowboys
The 1971 Cowboys boasted a fast, multifaceted offense that scored 40-plus points five times during the 14-game regular season.

With Roger Staubach (who racked up a 104.8 QB rating) sharing duties with Craig Morton for part of the season, the 'Boys could come at defenses from all angles. Duane Thomas gained almost 800 yards, averaging 4.5 yards per carry. Walt Garrison caught 40 passes coming out of the backfield. Calvin Hill played only eight games, but gained 468 yards on the ground. And wide receiver Bob Hayes averaged an incredible 26.9 yards per reception.

In the playoffs, the defense took over, holding the 49ers to a single field goal in the NFC championship game and the Dolphins to one field goal in the Super Bowl.

Also receiving votes:
# 1955 Browns
# 1974 Steelers
# 1973 Dolphins



See I even made sure to show your boys being top teams!! LOL. I can't wait for the regular season to start. You truly can't tell much about how good a team is until you're seeing all of the blitzes and stunts the opposing D co-ordinators are going to throw at your team. This NEVER happens in preseason as to not give away change in plays and such so SOME teams can't get them down on tape...muahahaha.

Hey guys, speaking of yesteryear, I found a great youtube of THE ENTIRE superbowl 13 in Miami ( Steelers vs Cowboys).. When you are bored, watch the entire broadcast here ( I watched it all last week)-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30Ckc8OHbgU (that's part one, you can see the rest of the parts to the right there)

Now THAT is some nice stuff.. Jack Lambert was a beast. Same for Randy White for the cowboys. A VERY physical game... Quite a few legends in that Super Bowl .. The whole broadcast is there, right from the national anthem at the beginning, to the halftime show, all the way through to the end..

Just great to watch many decades later.. Look at those commercials and the music being played.. Funny stuff. That Steeler team of the mid to late 70's was really good ( I'm sure Blk'nGld will thank me for this).

PS- they also have all of Super bowl 10 there on youtube ( Steelers and Cowboys again, and again from Miami.. just search for "Super Bowl X") :thumbsup(22):

LeafNation
08-26-2008, 04:32 PM
LN...any concerns over losing some key Defensive players? I know you're pumped about the "New Beginning" WIth Tuna and the O-line etc...but with Taylor and Thomas gone now and Porter maybe out for a few games/season/career with this troublesome back ailment do you trust Charlie Anderson to pick up the slack for Porter and the others to slide in perfect for Taylor and Thomas? I know they are in their twilight years but are savvy vets who knew the system well. Just curious of your take on this.

I don't know if they knew the system well considering Zach and Taylor really played either a 4-3, or a hybrid form of a 3-4.. Remember, we are running a true Parcells 3-4 defense now. The defense is totally different.

1. On Jason Taylor.. Not worried about losing that guy at all.. Getting a 2nd round pick from the Redskins for a 33 year old on the decline was a steal.. We got our future QB with a similar move last season by trading Chambers for a 2nd and picking Henne.

Bill Parcells doesn't like players who miss out on offseason programs.. Jason Taylor was off dancing with the stars, thinking he's Mr Celebrity, while the rest of the team was at the Dolphin complex all summer long training..

You can see Bill parcells commandments at the 2:25 point of this video.. He hates celebrity players, especially ones who skip out on offseason programs to go dancing in hollywood ( QB's or otherwise)-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMfXkMX0J-w

With that said, Taylor is a good pass rusher, but he is not good against the run.. As a matter of fact, Taylor was invisible last year 90% of the time in games. Getting a 2nd for him at his age was a steal. And saving $9 million on the cap on top of it by trading him was wise.

And let's not forget we drafted 2 superior defensive ends who can stop the run in Kendall Langford and Philip Merling ( in the 3rd and 2nd rounds respectively).. In college, Langford ws so dominant, that he allowed only 0.26 yards per rush when ball carriers ran in his area.. Rushers averaged only a quarter yard running to him on over 250 carries. That;s crazy.. And so far, Langford is showing the same dominance out there. His body and frame is perfectly fit for a 3-4 end.

And Philip Merling, who was regarded as a top 15 pick in the draft, was also regarded as the best run stopper in the draft, PERIOD.. And he has shown that in camp.

2. On Zach Thomas.. For a rebuilding team, there is no point in keeping that guy around..

Also keep in mind that Parcells likes BIG linebackers for his 3-4 defense.. Just look at his history. He likes bigger lineman to swallow up O-lineman with only 3 down lineman in that 3-4 alignment.. The very first thing Ireland and Parcells said when they arrived is that we are going to get a lot bigger. Zach Thomas wasn't part of the plan, just didn't fit into our scheme.. While Zach is good in a 4-3 defense, as the 2 defensive tackles eat up O-lineman creating a lot of room for Zach to make plays, Parcells and Ireland didn't see him suited for the 3-4 that they wanted to implement.

Plus, it also had to do with bringing in a new culture. Zach, as much as I loved him, was part of the losing culture.. Parcells is looking for other "young' leaders in the draft..

Something also needs to be said regarding payback to Jerry Jones.. Jerry Jones helped us a lot by giving us a great mind in GM Jeff Ireland. As well as our coach Tony Sparano..

We also got a lot of ex Dallas players this offseason ( Ferguson for only a 6th round pick etc etc). I think Parcells threw Jerry Jones a bone as everyone knew Zach Thomas grew up a cowboy fan being from Texas. And that he was going to go there. I think it may have been one of those underhanded deals by releasing him and letting him go to Dallas for a season or two before he retires.

3. On Porter.. Okay, now THAT is definitely a concern .. A BIG coincern... They are talking about maybe moving Reggie Torbor inside to replace Akin Ayodele (another former cowboy), and moving Ayodele to the outside linebacker spot to replace Porter.. Ayodele played outside linebacker early in his career before he went to Dallas, and he excelled at it.. However, it's been a long time..

It's really too bad w/Porter.. He was in Miami all summer training hard for the upcoming year.. He didn't go to California to his family except for one weekend he took off.. He has been really working hard with the team all offseason to have a great season this year. Then this back thing flares up.. urgh

OLB is an area where we have little to no depth. We've even put Merling there over the past week as he has very good agility for his size... So there will have to be shuffling around there.. We are deep at the defensive line position.. And it was all by design because Parcells went into this draft to get bigger and stronger rebuilding the lines first (on both sides of the ball)...

Most importantly, he built the lines to run the ball, and to stop the run.. He got the players to do that. Last season we were horrible in stopping the run, and that has been fixed.. Getting that premier pass rusher( like a Demarcus Ware for instance) will have to wait until the next draft. No one can totally rebuild a team in one offseason... But I like the progress of building the lines first (and the players drafted were great picks), then bringing in linebackers etc in next year.. We did bring in a lot of cheap free agent linebackers to hold the fort until the draft next year. But are still short in that premier pass rusher.. And losing Porter for any amount of time definitely hurts the defense.

But I am very happy with what I have seen with the new D-line.. They are getting tremendous push, more than I have seen in the last couple of years.. baby steps baby steps.

The one strength I see as far as depth is concerned on defense is the secondary, at the safety position in particular. We have good depth there with Bell, Allen, Crocker, Hill and a couple more guys we brought in.. Last season, the lack of depth there killed us.. As soon as bell went down, we had no one back there and opposing QB's abused that spot all season last year attacking the safety spot.. Our backup last season was horrible.. We got some good reinforcements there now.

So to sum it up.. The defensive line has good depth with Jason Ferguson, Reggie Starks, Vonnie Holliday, Kendall Langford, Philip Merling, Paul Soliai, Rod Wright.

Inside linebacker has average depth with Torbor behind Crowder and Ayodele, and a couple others (like Anderson you mentioned) who can fill in.

Outside linebacker lacks depth ( as shown before). Look for Parcells and Ireland to hit this area hard in next year's draft ( he drafted a lot of them in Dallas if you remember).

Corner - Average depth.. BTW, Will Allen is probably the most underrated corner in the game.. Saw a stat of passes thrown to him last season, and he was top 5 in the league with percentage of incomplete passes thrown his way ( not many people know that).

Safeties - Playing lights out fantastic football and good depth here. We brought in a lot of safeties- also for special teams help.... Yeremiah Bell is a fantastic player. And if he can overcome his injury woes of last season, this guy is on the cusp of a Pro Bowl ( as many NFL observers have said and written about). And Jason Allen at the other safety spot, who was #1 pick a couple years ago, is finally showing his draft status.. He was great during the last 6 games of last season, and it has carried over to this year thus far.. Crocker has been a big surprise signing and is giving Allen a run for his money.. So good depth there.

Remember, we were one of the worst teams in stopping the run last year... Parcells brought in the horses up front on the D-line to bring us from one of the worst, to average in that part of the game... Parcells vision was to MAKE SURE we can stop the run on defense, and that we can run the ball on offense.. he is going back to the basics.. All the sexy positions and sexy picks in the draft for skill position players will have to wait in future years.. baby steps baby steps ;) ..

And lastly, we are in excellent cap shape.. Miami is presently $17 million under the cap and we have positioned ourselves to be extremely flexible next offseason (when more comes off the books) .. I think only one other team is in our ballpark capwise. Parcells is building this house the right way IMO.

LeafNation
08-26-2008, 04:49 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGw3soM07Yw

Heh. Gotta love him..

No BS.

mbow30
08-26-2008, 04:50 PM
zack thomas isn't a big loss but let's be reasonable about taylor. that's a classic case of "my team" bias right there. taylor might end up falling off this season (it wouldn't surprise me given his age, new surroundings, new system), but you can't minimize his contributions just like that. at the end of the day the dolphins lost one of, if not the premier pass rusher, regardless of his age, and regardless of what he did this past off season. the guy has only failed to register double digit sack numbers once in the psat seven or eight years and had 11 last year. that's a big loss.

LeafNation
08-26-2008, 05:02 PM
Pffft...really good. Try the BEST.

Meh.. SI ? You mean the same mag that picked Miami and Carolina to go to the super bowl in 2006 ? heh

'Hey, the Steelers have my respect. I respect their history.. Totally....

But by the same token, up until about 4 years ago, the Miami Dolphins were the winningest franchise in all of professional sports since the AFL merger, with the highest winning percentage.. That's a 35 year span being the winningest team in sports. No small shakes..

And come to think of it, just a couple winning seasons puts us on top again for that distinction. ;)

LeafNation
08-26-2008, 05:09 PM
zack thomas isn't a big loss but let's be reasonable about taylor. that's a classic case of "my team" bias right there. taylor might end up falling off this season (it wouldn't surprise me given his age, new surroundings, new system), but you can't minimize his contributions just like that. at the end of the day the dolphins lost one of, if not the premier pass rusher, regardless of his age, and regardless of what he did this past off season. the guy has only failed to register double digit sack numbers once in the psat seven or eight years and had 11 last year. that's a big loss.

Well he's a good player ( or WAS a damn good player).. No one denies that.. But 2nd round picks aren't handed out like candy for 33 year old players on the decline.. Hell, he will be 34 when the season starts.. A 2nd round pick for a 34 yr old D-lineman ? That's a Steal.

Remember, Randy Moss was traded for a 4th.

Adding 2nd round picks is pure gold for rebuilding teams. A 2nd round pick in the NFL is nothing like a 2nd round pick is in the NHL.. There are a lot more difference makers in 2nd rounds for football... NFL drafts are very deep drafts and a 2nd for a declining player is no small shakes at all.

Trading Taylor for a 2nd is like trading McCabe for a first.

The thing with Taylor though, is he just isn't good against the run. He is tremendously undersized, reports had him down to 240 at times, and he just gets pushed off the ball too easily at times by big tackles. he gets pushed around at the point of attack.. The guy looked listless last season in a lot of ways. Looked disinterested.

Sure, he got 11 sacks last season.. But consider how many stunts were designed to get him free last season.. Miami's coach even mentioned this, he said in pressers that he had to design plays and stunts to open up Taylor because Taylor just was not getting it done on his own anymore..... .. Defensive calls were designed to get him free on most of his sacks. Sacks that a lot of NFL players can make because of the design and other players doing the grunt work..

What's funny is, when I saw the D institute those plays trying to get Taylor free to the QB, it burned us more than helped us-- with long pass completions and long runs against those defensive stunts.. Too bad they don't list those ugly defensive statistics along with the 11 plays where he got sacks designed for him.

While he got by on his tremendous quickness and speed to get around the edge, that was lost last season.. He looked slow. And the first thing that goes when you get older is your speed. Once you lose it it's very hard to get back entering your mid 30's as a professional football player. The guy will be 34 when the season starts.. That's getting up there for a D-lineman who relies purely on speed...

He also disappeared in the biggest games over his career when he was in his prime. I always thought that he was weak mentally when under a lot of pressure.. You could just see it in his demeanor during important games.. He'd wilt.... Sure, he pumped up his stats when games didn't mean anything, like when we were 1-6 a couple years ago and went into Chicago who was undefeated.. Just blind siding that team who took us lightly (and really, who wouldn't take a 1-6 team lightly when you're undefeated?).. But when the games really mattered, he was invisible.. Whether it be late in the season playoff clinching games, or playoff games themselves, he was just missing in action in big games that actually meant something..

Don't get me wrong, he was a freak of an athlete at one time.. Terrific quickness. But dammit the guy was missing in action when we really needed him to step up in big games that were important in a season.. Totally invisible. And the guy had plenty of help around him as we had some talented defenses. We had quite a few pro bowlers going to Hawaii on that defense,

Also keep in mind that we will be running a TRUE 3-4.. Taylor primarily had his success as a 4-3 end.. Two TOTALLY different positions. While Taylor did jump around as a rover in a hybrid defense on a few occasions, I'm not sure Parcells wanted to have a guy, at 34 years old, start to learn the position of a fulltime OLB.

And if you think it's some sort of "my team" bias on my part, you can feel free to PM me and I can send you a link to a Dolphins board before the trade was made.. And you will clearly see my opinion, in numerous posts about it, and that I was TOTALLY for trading the guy for a 2nd, or even 3rd round pick.. The timestamp of my posts shows that... And heck, with the sig there, to one of my domains, there is no doubt it is indeed me. ;) .. It's not "my team" bias. We needed to rebuild and change the core of the team.. And get value (2nd round picks) for the old (losing) core while we could as they were declining in play anyway.

blkngldbabe
08-26-2008, 05:44 PM
Keep in mind though that Crazy Al is holding the reigns in Oakland. That guy has been off of his nut for a while and has spelled trouble for the team for almost a decade. Guy needs to swallow the pride and let his FO deal in football dealings and stick to ownership.

SI is the first one that came up. Meh. To say they were good is like saying Crosby is average at best IMO. Just like as much as I can't stand the Patsies, they have the new modern day Dynasty. No matter who you ask, if they know ball MOST would agree that the 70's Steelers were far better than good. How many Hall of famers do the early 70's Dolphins have? They were GREAT teams...so why couldn't it be possible that the Steelers had one of the alltime greats?

LeafNation
08-26-2008, 05:50 PM
Ahhhh , Now I see where you are coming from.. Sorry i missed it earlier.

You took offense when I said the Steelers of the late 70's were just "really good",.. Well hell, forgive me for not saying they were really "great".... That's what I meant.. better ?

If anything, I was admiring that team in the post there... I mean, I went out of my way to post a video of a game that featured a Steelers super bowl victory in the 70's... They were excellent.. Although I hated Bradshaw ;)

:cheers2:

LeafNation
08-26-2008, 06:11 PM
You truly can't tell much about how good a team is until you're seeing all of the blitzes and stunts the opposing D co-ordinators are going to throw at your team. This NEVER happens in preseason as to not give away change in plays and such so SOME teams can't get them down on tape.

While some of that is true, teams also practice their blitzes...I have seen plenty of blitz packages from Tampa, Jacksonville and KC, often sending 6.. Plenty of stunts and twists thrown.. We have also blitzed quite a bit.. Now, of course co-ordinators won't throw the whole playbook out there, but it is good for an O-line to practice having 6 guys coming at them on a regular basis in games, and seeing how the rookies handle it, albeit "preseason" games..

To be honest, I look at how the starters look in the first 20 minutes of each game. And see how the bubble guys perform for the rest. But I am mainly concerned with the "push" the starting defensive line and starting offensive line are showing against the other teams' starting lines.... And Miami has had their way with all 3 teams as far as basic "push" is concerned.. And that really is a big improvement over last year in and of itself. Especially when you consider Jacksonville has VERY physical lines on both sides of the ball..

In the preseason game against Jax last year, Jacksonville threw us around like rag dolls on both sides of the line.. This year, we pushed them around physically, on both sides of the ball.. I'll take the noticeable improvement the new guys are showing, preseason game or not., Hell, we were 1-15 last season, I'll take it ;)

But blkngldbabe, since you're here. Some Steeler questions about your current team..

I read an article a little while ago talking about 3-4 ends. And it was amazing to me how the correlation of size = yards gained per run..

For instance, Your defensive end Keisel , is undersized for a 3-4 end at 280 pounds, he's one of the lightest in the league.. And he gave up a whopping 8 yards per rush with runs to his side. There was another light 3-4 defensive end in the NFL who was also in the top 2 for most yards given up to a side (can't remember his name at the moment).

It's just incredible how the larger the 3-4 ends were (in about the 300 to 310 pound range), the better they were against the run.. So , I wanted to ask you if you still have this guy Keisel, or have you replaced him with a larger 3-4 end?? BTW, I will try to find the article again.. I remember this article well and will try to find it again.. It had all the 3-4 right ends and left ends listed, and yards per carry average ran to their side all season long.. It was pretty informative and a good breakdown..

secondly, how has Mendenhall looked ? Saw a couple highlights of him in preaseason, but sometimes that doesn't tell the whole story.. I loved him in college.. And finally, how is the replacement for Faneca looking on the O-line ?

Metalleaf
08-26-2008, 07:02 PM
5. 1999 Rams
Was there anything more exciting during the 1999 season than watching the Rams' grocery-clerk led offense? The Rams scored 526 points during their 13-3 regular season, an average of almost 33 points per game. Kurt Warner threw 41 TD passes on his way to a 109.2 QB rating, and Marshall Faulk ran for 1,381 yards (an average of 5.5 yards per carry) and caught 87 passes for another thousand yards?

Kurt Warner
Kurt Warner led a Rams offense that averaged nearly 33 points a game in 1999.
The defense wasn't too shabby, either, allowing only 15 points per game, fourth in the NFL. In the playoffs, the Rams proved they could win high-scoring ballgames (they beat the Vikings 49-37 in the divisional playoff), low-scoring ballgames (they beat the Bucs 11-6 for the NFC title), and a rare the-hell-with-the-dip Super Bowl over the Titans 23-16.

That was a great team to watch and also one of the best Super Bowl's I've seen. Great finish.

Fitzgerald#11
08-26-2008, 07:56 PM
yeah the Greatest Show on Turf was awesome.

Warner-Faulk-Holt-Bruce-Hakim

TheCountofMonteCristo
08-26-2008, 07:59 PM
No sane person picks the 1999 Rams as a top 5 team of all time. The 70s Steelers, 80s 49ers, 90s Cowboys, Bears of 85 would have crushed that group of panty waists.

Kurt Warner vs the Steel Curtain, where is that laugh emoticon

LeafNation
08-26-2008, 08:04 PM
Found a really good article about the history of 3-4 defense, and the players needed to design and implement such a defense-

http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/Features/NFL+Features/2008/34defense.htm

Great read...

MyNameIsJonas
08-26-2008, 11:52 PM
Im a dolphin fan too LeafNation.....cheers to being headed in the right direction

SR2007
08-26-2008, 11:53 PM
boo to the dolphins lol
damn those dolphins in the 1970s they beat my team and my team is 0-20 against you guys in the 70s can you guess who my team is lol

LeafNation
08-27-2008, 06:58 AM
Im a dolphin fan too LeafNation.....cheers to being headed in the right direction

It all starts at the draft table my man. Everyone talks about Jake Long the #1 pick, and the good camp Chad Henne has had. As well as the 6th round sensation Donald Thomas...

But my God what about Langford and Merling. These guys have been total beasts out there on the field... Langford, who has already won the starting DE job, has a perfect body for a 3-4 end. The guy has been immovable. As well as Merling. I have been very impressed with Merling's motor. The guy has played with tremendous emotion and attitude out there- something GREATLY missing last season. And of course, he has played extremely well.. These guys don't look like rookies, they look like seasoned vets causing havoc out there on the D-line.

Here's a couple write ups on these two, who I am really high on.. Langford ,the last paragraph there has been true thus far in camp and in pre-games- with the exception of the hands label.. He has been using his hands extremely well. He has been Very impressive.

http://www.nfldraftdog.com/2008_nfl_draft/kendall_langford.htm



Langford will be a hotly sought after prospect in the 2008 NFL Draft because his size, athletic ability and versatility. He could bulk up a little and play defensive tackle, similar to how the Rams are using 2007 first round NFL Draft pick Adam Carricker, who has almost identical size. He could of course be played at his natural defensive end position, but I wouldn’t completely rule out the possibility of him trimming down and playing outside linebacker for a team utilizing the 34 defense. The Cowboys’ Greg Ellis made a similar transaction.

No matter how or where he is played, he has immense NFL potential. Langford is very aggressive; he will never be labeled as a pile inspector. He plays football with a very high motor and when you see him move you would never believe he is only a biscuit away from 300 pounds. He has quick feet like a linebacker, plays with his head up and quickly finds the ball and diagnosis the play

And Merling- ( this is just a board where people follow the draft, but you can see the comparisons people have thrown.. I wouldn't post it if he didn't show such ability in camp)

http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=187642&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

A small college video of Merling. You can see why they have tried him out at OLB in the 3-4, he has good agility for his size at 6'5 280. Actually he played quite a bit at OLB the other night vs KC, and played very well there. Stuffing Larry Johnson for a loss on the goal line as one of his good plays

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0tBbjSXMYQ

No more quick fixes by giving up valuable 2nd round picks for older vets like we have done for YEARS (let Snider in Washington continue to go that route as he has done for years- it NEVER got him anywhere).... All that did was make our team older, and not better.. And the drafting since 2000 with the few picks we did have has sucked.. All of that heartache is over now... Now, we have a regime who knows how to draft.. And we have a regime that trades AWAY older vets on the decline for valuable draft picks.. PERFECT.. It's the total opposite of the stupidity that went on before.

Add another draft next year with the way this regime picks, and this team will be back in business. Bringing back the glory !Cheers :cheers2:

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/pro--sports/BParcells.jpg

Locke
08-27-2008, 07:50 AM
I think Jim Brown, Barry Sanders, Emmit Smith and LaDainian Tomlinson would have something to say to that Ricky Williams comment.

You also omitted to mention Reggie Bush.

LeafNation
08-27-2008, 08:01 AM
You also omitted to mention Reggie Bush.

You have to be kidding me.. Bush is a little one dimensional back who averaged a measly 3.6 yards per carry last season, and hasn't even eclipsed 600 yards rushing in a season in his 2 years..

By contrast, Ronnie Brown had more rushing yards than he did last year in just 6 and a half games played (before he got injured).. And he averaged more than 5 yards per carry with a sub-par line (Bush clearly had a better line blocking for him last season)..

Now Bush is a good receiver out of the backfield.. But come on, as a running back ? He can't even run between the tackles.. Small backs like M. Faulk and B Sanders were able to run between the tackles consistently.

I think it is extremely premature (and ridiculous) to call Reggie Bush one of the greatest backs ever.. Heck, he has been a disappointment considering where he was picked.

LeafNation
08-27-2008, 08:27 AM
You know what, as far as smaller backs are concerned, Maurice Jones-Drew has shown a lot more than Reggie Bush has running the ball in their 2 seasons in the league.. The guy runs between the tackles and has shown to be more of a capable every down back than Bush has..

Maurice Jones-Drew has averaged over 5 yards per carry (and over 1700 yards in 2 seasons) -- because he is better at running inside. And the guy is only 5'7 and about the same weight as Bush.

Bush is a situational 3rd down back type of player.. Not an every down back... Just look at the yards per carry averages of the backs in this league.. I don't think Bush is even in the top 20 backs in the NFL in that regard.. Hell, even his teammate Deuce McAllister has averaged more than Bush has, and they run behind the same line.. What does that tell you ?

MyNameIsJonas
08-27-2008, 08:41 AM
Nation...what are your thoughts on our wide outs?...outside of Ginn im unimpressed.....Wilford looks like a bust FA since he's been dropped to 4th on the depth chart.....it will be interesting to see if Darek Hagan can offer anything eh?

leafman101
08-27-2008, 09:00 AM
Jimmy Johnson brought in a veteran Kevin Gogan from Dallas (and a bunch of other free agents for the team) for the Offensive line in Miami (similar to your Faneca move). And Kevin Gogan wasn't nearly the same guy he was in Dallas.. Alan Faneca, while a good run blocker, has been average at best pass blocking.. I saw a stat, and of all the pressure Roethlisberger received, Faneca's man was in on Roethlisberger the most ( maybe Blk'GldBabe can vouche for that).. One other thing to note is, Pittsburgh Steelers players who have gone free agency to other teams have busted.. The list is very long for Steeler free agents who went to other teams who did little to nothing at all ( Blk'NgldBabe can vouche for that as well).

No All-Pro, who is considered one of the top two players at his positions, is "average at best" in such an important facet of his game.



And if this is Favre's last season, which it likely is, you have a huge hole at the QB position to boot.

Well thats not true, with Clemens, and with the way Ratliff has come on. But so what, there was a huge hole at QB before Farve came.



As far as week 1 is concerned, the pressure is all on the Jets coming to Miami.. Miami has been VERY loose this preseason playing with tremendous emotion, emotion like a college football team has.. I see them really ready in week 1. They are just playing lights out enthusiastic football out there- on both sides of the ball.

Now ANYTHING can happen in this game of football on any given Sunday.. If the NY Jets win that opener in Miami I will be surprised. Not shocked, but I will be surprised.. ANYTHING can happen. Nobody in the world thought the NY Giants would win the Super Bowl last year after the garbage start they had last season. NOBODY guessed that.. One advantage for the Jets is, after their first 3 games, you guys have an easy schedule. So that also has to be taken into account.

Maybe you will be surprise, but that is only because you are a Dolphins fan. Jets are 3 point favorites.

LeafNation
08-27-2008, 09:09 AM
Nation...what are your thoughts on our wide outs?...outside of Ginn im unimpressed.....Wilford looks like a bust FA since he's been dropped to 4th on the depth chart.....it will be interesting to see if Darek Hagan can offer anything eh?

Ginn has looked great. Remember that it usually takes 3 years for a WR to really bust out after being drafted.. WR's just take longer to develop.. This is his 2nd year and he has shown great improvement compared to this time last year. I am not worried about this guy at all.

Don't know what's going on with Wilford. While he hasn't looked good, I skimmed through a Jacksonville board and he seems like one of those players that doesn't play well in camp, but shows up for the season.. At least that's what happened last year when he played there.. He is one of those possession guys who moved the chains for first downs for them last year.. And a good red zone threat because of his height... I really don't know what's going to happen.. Because if this is the Wilford we will see in the season, I am not impressed.

Hagan is interesting.. Like I mentioned, it usually takes a WR 3 years to bust out, and this is his third season.. Hagan has had a good camp. He was our best WR in the first 2 weeks of camp.. Parcells has taken a liking to him and pulled him over for some private talks. I think he sees something in him that he likes.. With that said, this is a make it or break it year for him. He has to show continued development and transfer it over to the season if he wants to be a dolphin next year.. Because make no mistake about it, if he doesn't cut it this season, the trifecta will replace him quickly (either through the draft, trade, or free agency next offseason).

Davone Bess is an interesting rookie FA. He has the best hands of anyone on the team.. The kid catches everything in sight.. I mean, his hands are lights out incredible.. The problem with him is, is he is small, and slow.. Now he is quick, VERY QUICK as we saw in the last game with catches and the return he had on special teams, but he has slow straight ahead speed for NFL WR standards..

I just don't like the combination of small and not fast for a WR.. Now there are a few of them who have made it in the NFL claiming that distinction, but it's very rare.. You have to be a VERY precise player such as Wes Welker to have a chance.. But the coaching staff seems to like him, and he has been making plays out there.. By the way, if you have never seen Bess play, here's a 5 minute video of his college highlights-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYNJ5w5ij_U

I was surprised they cut Kircus so quickly.. That can only be good news for Bess, as many thought they were both fighting for a roster spot...

There was also a report that Miami and Dallas were interested in Anquan Boldin.. He wants out of Arizona as he and the coach don't get along over a contract dispute.. So it looks like Miami is already looking to upgrade the receiver position since they are interested in him... Cuts are looming in a few days (on Aug 30th) and Sparano has already mentioned that they are going to pick up quite a few players on the waiver wire.. Remember, Miami has first pick on waiver claims.. Maybe WR will be one of the positions they go after..

The Giants have 8 WR's. And it looks like they may cut a couple of good ones since they can't keep all 8 of them on the roster. I really like Hixon there, he was absolutely awesome the other night vs the Browns as I watched that game... He may be cut as they have some good wideouts.. That is just one team that has a surplus of WR's that may be let loose in a couple of days when teams make their final roster cuts...

I expect Miami to make a few maneuvers on cut day.. Sparano has repeated that they have a lot of scouts watching other teams this preseason to better the "bottom of our roster".. That tells me he wants better depth players, and we will grab them as soon as they become available.. He said the staff is "leaving no stone unturned" when it comes to looking at every player on the waiver wire (and players who are cut by other teams on a daily basis)

LeafNation
08-27-2008, 09:25 AM
No All-Pro, who is considered one of the top two players at his positions, is "average at best" in such an important facet of his game.

Why? because of pro bowls? Everybody knows pro bowls mostly go by reputation.. I can give you countless examples of players not deserving of a pro bowl selection. I wasn;t surprised that the steelers let him go.. I have heard quite a few steeler fans upset with his pass blocking recently over the last couple of years.

Hey , if he does well for you, great.. But there has been a good history of Steeler players who have went to other teams and busted.. As a matter of fact, it's a longtime joke with people who really follow football.

I just don't believe in the free agent strategy as band aid solutions.. I pointed out clearly how the Pats, Steelers and Colts won super bowls recently by going the way of the draft.. Snider in Washington is notorious for getting any older free agent he can find to plug holes on his team, and he has done it for many years. Well the skins haven't been to the super bowl under Snider.. I just find it to be a philosophy destined for failure.

If the Jets win the super bowl this year, then more power to you. And I will be the first on here, in this thread, to congratulate the Jets (as much as it would pain me to do so)


Maybe you will be surprise, but that is only because you are a Dolphins fan. Jets are 3 point favorites.

Well obviously. Miami was 1-15 last season.. However, talk to anyone in the know and they will tell you why Vegas makes their lines/odds.. They make them so they can get an even amount of people betting on both sides. They project the most money they can make that way-- it doesn't have to do with who they think is the better team, or who they think will win the game by a certain amount of points. It's all about wagering on both sides evenly, and money

And what does the line matter anyway ? Denver came into Miami on opening day 3 years ago as 10 point favorites (or at least that was the opening line a couple weeks before the game if I recall), and Miami beat em by about 20... Denver players after the game, to a man, said how the heat shocked them, and said how they were totally worn out by the middle of the 3rd quarter.. So Lines mean nothing. I always laugh when people bring up Vegas odds in an argument.

Like I said, Miami was heavy underdogs at home to Denver for Miami's home opener in early Sepetember, the same year Denver went to the AFC championship game...This was during Saban's first season and he had the team in great condition after a hard training camp in the heat.. Similar to the camp the team is having currently.. last year, Cameron had a VERY soft camp and the team was basically out of shape, it was evident on opening day in Washington.. But this year is similar to Saban's first camp,.

You can't discount the heat and humidity, just like I can't discount Miami going up north in the cold in December to play in NY.. It works both ways. Both teams have advantages at home this season ( as NY has to go to Miami in week 1 when it's very hot, and Miami has to go to NY in late december when it very cold this season). Same difference, same advantages for both teams with the weather factor.

Like I said, I won't be totally shocked if the Jets win on Sept 7th, but I will be surprised.. If the jets win that game, and if it's hot and humid as it usually is at that time of year down there, then more power to them. It will be impressive, because it's very hard to do when going up against a team that regularly has hard practices in that suffocating humidity...... I mean, Miami had the best September record of any team in the NFL for like a 20 year stretch. For a reason.

leafman101
08-27-2008, 10:36 AM
Why? because of pro bowls? Everybody knows pro bowls mostly go by reputation.. I can give you countless examples of players not deserving of a pro bowl selection. I wasn;t surprised that the steelers let him go.. I have heard quite a few steeler fans upset with his pass blocking recently over the last couple of years.

No, not pro bowls. The guy is an ALL-PRO. "People who really follow football" know the difference


I just don't believe in the free agent strategy as band aid solutions.. I pointed out clearly how the Pats, Steelers and Colts won super bowls recently by going the way of the draft.. Snider in Washington is notorious for getting any older free agent he can find to plug holes on his team, and he has done it for many years. Well the skins haven't been to the super bowl under Snider.. I just find it to be a philosophy destined for failure.

So I guess the Pats didn't utilize free agency, and trades to help them go 16-0 last year. I guess you've never heard of Randy Moss, or Wes Welker.

And I guess Steve Hutchensen didn't help in Minnesota. There are countless examples both ways. And the Jets haven't built through free agency. They added 4 players by that manner this offseason.



And what does the line matter anyway ? Denver came into Miami on opening day 3 years ago as 10 point favorites (or at least that was the opening line a couple weeks before the game if I recall), and Miami beat em by about 20... Denver players after the game, to a man, said how the heat shocked them, and said how they were totally worn out by the middle of the 3rd quarter.. So Lines mean nothing. I always laugh when people bring up Vegas odds in an argument.

You are missing the point. It matters because the Jets are favoured to WIN. The only reason such an occurrence would surprise you, is because you are a Fins fan. It would surprise no one else.

LeafNation
08-27-2008, 10:52 AM
No, not pro bowls. The guy is an ALL-PRO. "People who really follow football" know the difference

And people who have followed the Steelers and the team know that he has had problems in pass blocking over the past couple of seasons..

I will try to find the site that had the statistics showing he was the one most responsible for pressure and sacks on Rothlisberger. They do record such things.


So I guess the Pats didn't utilize free agency, and trades to help them go 16-0 last year. I guess you've never heard of Randy Moss, or Wes Welker.

NE was already a great team built through the draft just adding bonus pieces.. A HUGE difference compared to a 4-12 team (as the Jets were last year), trying to patch big holes via free agency..


You are missing the point. It matters because the Jets are favoured to WIN. The only reason such an occurrence would surprise you, is because you are a Fins fan. It would surprise no one else.

Hey man,. I lived in Miami beach for almost 2 decades.. I have witnessed teams come into Miami on opening day and totally wilt in that heat.. Miami had a 20 year stretch of having the best September record in the league because of that heat.. Those are facts.. You can discount it if you like... But dammit you are making too much out of this. I said that the Jets will have a clear advantage with that weather up there in December when the two teams meet... I have always conceded that......... The fact that you can't say that Miami has some sort of advantage in early September at home, in that heat and humidity, is because you are just a Jets fan ( or a Favre fan)

MyNameIsJonas
08-27-2008, 10:54 AM
thanks for the tips nation.....

as far as Boldin goes....Arizona is not moving him....as far as i can tell....not until the offseason anyways.....

MyNameIsJonas
08-27-2008, 10:54 AM
thanks for the tips nation.....

as far as Boldin goes....Arizona is not moving him....as far as i can tell....not until the offseason anyways.....

Im actually a little suprised Parcells hasnt invited Terry Glenn for a workout

LeafNation
08-27-2008, 10:57 AM
Jonas.. Glenn hasn't fully recovered from the injury he had. That's the rumor I heard..

MyNameIsJonas
08-27-2008, 11:04 AM
makes sense...otherwise he would probably be a dolphin.....i really didnt want him anyways...

the offseason could interesting....i can think of at least 3 WR that are potentially available....Chad Johnson T.J Houshmanzadeh and Anquan BOldin......and we have room

leafman101
08-27-2008, 11:13 AM
also off the top of my head, Plaxico BUrress, Joey Porter...

mbow30
08-27-2008, 11:21 AM
a few things...

1) it's not that faneca has had problems blocking on passing downs the past few seasons, he's just never been known as a superb pass blocker. he's still a good one. and he's one of the best off the run.

2) despite the fact that passblocking isn't his forte, he was only credited with two sacks allowed last season.

3) the jets brought him in not only to help them as an all-pro lineman but also because he is going to slide right in between ferguson and mangold and provide them with veteran expertise, leadership and support... something those two youngsters could desperately use to boost them up to the next level (having a player as good as faneca between them won't hurt, either).

and at 31 he isn't too old. he will decline throughout the duration of the deal but he should still have at least another 2-3 years of top notch play left in him. plenty of linemen have continued to play at a high level right into their late 30s (shields, roaf, matthews, ogden to name a few).

LeafNation
08-27-2008, 11:24 AM
makes sense...otherwise he would probably be a dolphin.....i really didnt want him anyways...

the offseason could interesting....i can think of at least 3 WR that are potentially available....Chad Johnson T.J Houshmanzadeh and Anquan BOldin......and we have room

We will surely get a WR. When I hear this regime speak, they really sound like they know what the heck they're talking about and how to build a team.

Now the guy that I would LOVE to bring in next offseason is Terrell Suggs. Now that is a player.. But really, I would rather draft a LB like Maualuga or James Laurinaitis.. I am certain they will go front 7 in the first couple of rounds.. Remember we have 3 picks in the first 2 rounds as we got an additional 2nd with the JT trade... So as I see it, front 7 for two of those first 3 picks, and CB or WR with the other one.. But who knows what may happen until then as it's a long way off..

And leafman101, back to the game on opening day.. Let's talk matchups. The matchup that I am very concerned about is our OLB on your TE matchup.. I really like Keller a player and he is definitely fast. I think Keller has the potential of having a good game in his NFL debut.. Miami has to somehow mask a coverage to contain him.. I know all about Coles and Cotchery, but I really like our new secondary coach as he is well respected in the business (MUCH better than the guy we had last season).. Keller does scare me though.

Let me ask, does Keller look like he is going to start ?
I know he has been on two tight end sets

MyNameIsJonas
08-27-2008, 11:34 AM
you a Jason Allen fan there Nation?.....i for one am unimpressed

leafman101
08-27-2008, 11:35 AM
And leafman101, back to the game on opening day.. Let's talk matchups. The matchup that I am very concerned about is our OLB on your TE matchup.. I really like Keller a player and he is definitely fast. I think Keller has the potential of having a good game in his NFL debut.. Miami is going to somehow have to mask a coverage to contain him.. I know all about Coles and Cotchery, but I really like our new secondary coach as he is well respected in the business (MUCH better than the guy we had last season).. Keller does scare me though.

Let me ask, does Keller look like he is going to start ?
I know he has been on two tight end sets

Yeah, thats defiantly something the Jets haven't had in a long time. I'm not sure if he'll start, but he'll definately play a lot. Especially considering how Farve likes to use his tight ends.

But yeah, he definitely could pose some pretty big match up problems. Most linebackers flat out can't cover him. So if you put a safety on him, well then you are leaving Coles or Cotchery in man on man. Which at this point, maybe later in the season depending on how Keller progresses, you don't want.

He's not a great blocker though, so they probably will use a lot of two TE sets, with Franks in there.

He received his first TD, on a pass from Farve. it was also Farve's first TD as a Jet. During the game Farve said to him he thought about giving Keller the ball, but he actually wanted to keep it. Then after the game Farve handed him the ball signed and said "Congratulations on your first TD."

Not relevant. Just a good story.

LeafNation
08-27-2008, 11:41 AM
you a Jason Allen fan there Nation?.....i for one am unimpressed

Allen looked great in the last 6 or 7 games of the season last year. And good against NE in the 2nd game vs them.. He has had a good camp, and was all over the ball the last couple of pre-games.

Here's what Sparano said about Jason Allen when asked yesterday-

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/football/pro/dolphins/sfl-tonyqa092608,0,3817497.story



(On Jason Allen's mental approach to the game) – "I've been really impressed with Jason Allen. I'm not telling you any secrets now, you guys were there, you've seen it. In the game the other night, Jason Allen played in the dime package, he played in base as a safety and he also played as a corner during the course of that game. That sounds easier then it is. That's really difficult. I think Jason has done a nice job that way. The defense, in what we do that way has been a little bit easier for those safeties as a whole, not just Jason, but the safeties as a whole. I think Jason's done a really nice job working at it. He spent a lot of time with Todd Bowles."

And here's a recent story about him-

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/football/pro/dolphins/sfl-flspdolphins14sbaug14,0,600554.story



Jason Allen making strides just in the nick of time

The 2006 first-round pick was sparingly used in the first seven games, but when injuries ravaged the safety position, his coaches were forced to put the No. 16 pick out on the field. And, to their surprise, he blossomed.

Allen contributed 66 tackles, a forced fumble and led the team with three interceptions during his nine starts.

"I see a lot of change in Jason. From now to when he first came here you can definitely see the confidence," said Yeremiah Bell, Allen's strong safety counterpart. "His confidence level has shot up and his play on the field has reflected that."

When the new coaching staff came, Allen knew he'd have to prove himself all over again, and this time around he's done it with ease. His practice play has been consistent enough to have him lock down the opening-day starting free safety spot if he stays healthy.

Allen credits his experiences last year, and his understanding of the Dolphins' new scheme, for his drastic improvement.

"It's like going from the hardest math class you can imagine to basic algebra. It's easier by far," Allen said of the new defense, which numerous players describe as player-friendly. "Algebra isn't the easiest math, but it's not calculus."

Instead of having to make numerous presnap reads, checks and audibles like last season, the Dolphins' new secondary typically makes one presnap adjustment, and challenges opposing offenses to react to what they're doing.

Allen openly admits that style of play suits him best because it's the processing that slows down his natural reaction to what's happening on the field.

"It just gives you an opportunity to go out and play, and not think. When you go on the field and start thinking, it slows you down," Allen said. "With how fast things happen on Sundays you can't go out there thinking. You have to react."

Defensive coordinator Paul Pasqualoni and secondary coach Todd Bowles have a saying they constantly hammer to the players: "Know, and know you know."

Allen's taken that slogan to heart.

Considering how productive he was on the field against the Buccaneers, Sparano said he wishes he'd had played the former Tennessee Volunteer more than he did. He plans to correct that oversight against Jacksonville.

"[He's] athletic, fast, and really pretty active in the back end," Sparano said. "He can do a lot of jobs back there

With that said we have much better safety depth this year. Remember last year after Bell and a couple safeties went down. We had Worrell back there who opposing QB's just abused.. No worries about that this year.. I just hope Yeremiah Bell stays healthy, because this guy could get Pro Bowl mention if he can stay healthy for a season.. Bell and Allen have the potential to be a real good safety tandem

LeafNation
08-27-2008, 12:12 PM
SI's NFL Preview is out (ok, it;s SI).. Here you go boys and girls-

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/football/nfl/specials/preview/2008/08/26/main/index.html?eref=T1

LeafNation
08-27-2008, 12:48 PM
Jonas, this was Sparano wired with a mic at an early practice in camp.. He tells Henne what he said was "stupid".. Calls Fasano slow saying "if you're slow you're slow".. He calls the team primadonnas. heh

http://www.nfl.com/videos?categoryId=nflNetwork

If the video doesn't play just click on the "Sparano Wired" link lower down the page.. That was very early in camp. He mentions it's their 12th practice. So with 2 a days going on early, it must have been their 6th day of practice a few weeks ago.

blkngldbabe
08-27-2008, 05:52 PM
While some of that is true, teams also practice their blitzes...I have seen plenty of blitz packages from Tampa, Jacksonville and KC, often sending 6.. Plenty of stunts and twists thrown.. We have also blitzed quite a bit.. Now, of course co-ordinators won't throw the whole playbook out there, but it is good for an O-line to practice having 6 guys coming at them on a regular basis in games, and seeing how the rookies handle it, albeit "preseason" games..

I know that there are blitzes shown...it helps with unit cohesion and such...but they (for the most part) are truly vanilla and aren't top notch complex blitzes that you see in regular season is all. For example, if you watch our preseason games from last year, our D looked good but not great. Nothing highly impressive was shown but we still managed to be the #1 defensive unit (all around) Vikes beat us in the Rush D I believe but OVERALL we were first combined. You would never have gathered that with the lackluster showing from preseason is all I'm getting at.:smile(21):


But blkngldbabe, since you're here. Some Steeler questions about your current team..

I read an article a little while ago talking about 3-4 ends. And it was amazing to me how the correlation of size = yards gained per run..

For instance, Your defensive end Keisel , is undersized for a 3-4 end at 280 pounds, he's one of the lightest in the league.. And he gave up a whopping 8 yards per rush with runs to his side. There was another light 3-4 defensive end in the NFL who was also in the top 2 for most yards given up to a side (can't remember his name at the moment).

It's just incredible how the larger the 3-4 ends were (in about the 300 to 310 pound range), the better they were against the run.. So , I wanted to ask you if you still have this guy Keisel, or have you replaced him with a larger 3-4 end?? BTW, I will try to find the article again.. I remember this article well and will try to find it again.. It had all the 3-4 right ends and left ends listed, and yards per carry average ran to their side all season long.. It was pretty informative and a good breakdown..

To be fair, I see what you're pointing out with Brett but he wasn't used in a traditional 3-4 end usage. Check out this article.

Steelers Keisel loves new role as Rover (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07135/786033-66.stm)

Steelers' Keisel loves new role as rover
STEELERS MINICAMP
Tuesday, May 15, 2007
By Ed Bouchette, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette


John Heller, Post-Gazette
Brett Keisel loves his new position because it causes more problems for opposing offenses. .

Forget whether the Steelers will run a 3-4 or a 4-3 defense. Are NFL offenses ready for their 99 alignment?

It does not yet have a name, but 99 might be appropriate given the tasks the player wearing that jersey number will be asked to do in some new defenses.

Defensive coordinator Dick LeBeau hopes that Brett Keisel can do for his front seven what strong safety Troy Polamalu does for his secondary -- a do-it-all from all over the field. Keisel still will be listed as the team's right defensive end on the depth chart, but in new defenses LeBeau introduced at the minicamps, he can wind up anywhere, before the snap and after it.

"He's just technically a roving linebacker is what he is," LeBeau said. "He's moving around, depending on where we put him and tell him where to end up. He won't always be just rushing as he is as a defensive lineman. We think he can cause some offenses some problems."

Think Mike Vrabel and former Raven Adalius Thomas of New England, or Junior Seau in his heyday. All three of them are linebackers. Keisel is a 6-foot-5, 285-pound end with a linebacker's mentality and athletic ability. He led all Steelers defenders with 23 quarterback pressures last season playing in a 3-4 scheme designed for the outside linebackers to pressure the quarterback. His 5.5 sacks ranked third on the team, 1.5 behind leader Joey Porter (who had 12 pressures).

Kevin Colbert, the Steelers' director of football operations, said the defense did not put enough heat on quarterbacks last season, so using Keisel in this manner is a way to try to get more pressure, plus confuse the quarterback.

Keisel served as an emergency backup outside linebacker the past two years and can play there if they need him.

"He's shown us the athleticism that lets us know he can operate in space and yet present some pretty good problems size-wise up there at the line of scrimmage," LeBeau said. "We're going to try to take advantage of his particular talents there."

In the new defenses, Keisel can line up in a three-point stance at right end and, at the snap of the ball or just before it, jump up and rush from the left -- or middle -- or drop into coverage. He can stand up in his initial alignment anywhere along the front, then switch into something else.

"I love it," said Keisel, who cut his teeth on special teams before he became a full-time starter last season. "I think it just really causes the offense problems. They don't know if I'm rushing or if I'm dropping into coverage. They don't know where I'm rushing from. They don't know if I'm containing or coming up the middle. It causes a lot of problems for them.

"We'll do it out of the 3-4, do it out of the 4-3, we'll do it out of everything."

His teammates seem to love it as well.

"They just have him moving around, trying to get the offensive linemen to know where he's at all times," left outside linebacker Clark Haggans said. "Sometimes he's blitzing inside, sometimes he's coming off the edge."

Keisel said he takes his inspiration from Polamalu, who can cover an entire field even before the snap. Polamalu has lined up outside of left end and at the snap of the ball speed around right end to blitz.

"He comes up and acts like he's doing one thing and does the complete opposite," Keisel said. "He's the master at it, no question."

If Keisel can pull it off, it will give a new meaning to disguising defenses.

"When the defense is called, I know where I'm supposed to be at the finish at the snap of the ball," Keisel said. "We're just experimenting with some things right now and, hopefully, we'll run them right and we can use them."

LeBeau has used players in a similar way in the past, but never in his two tenures with the Steelers. He has to go back to the late 1980s, early '90s to a player named Skip McClendon with the Cincinnati Bengals, who was 6-6, 300. But McClendon only had eight sacks in his entire career.

Baltimore has done it a lot, although with Thomas gone to New England it might prevent the Ravens from effectively deploying those types of defenses.

"It's a lot of what Baltimore did last year, they caused offenses a lot of problems," Keisel said. "Hopefully, we can do the same thing."


secondly, how has Mendenhall looked ? Saw a couple highlights of him in preaseason, but sometimes that doesn't tell the whole story.. I loved him in college.. And finally, how is the replacement for Faneca looking on the O-line ?

He's got the vision, which I LOVE. He can see the smallest sliver of light and squeeze through for a gain. He has the ability to see the holes that seem to elude Parker. Parker is the burner, but Mendy still has wheels and can break one through the tackles a bit better. Seemingly he has some decent hands as well and will pose some difficult decisions for opponents D's when we line up a two back set and have Holmes about to take the deep route. Hmmm...are they going to pass, screen or run? LOVE IT! He had two fumbles last game that were a tad disconcerting but one was stripped by an all Pro Tackle and the other was punched out. He got rookied is all, at least IMO. He needs some work on reacting and not thinking but that will come with playing time and adjusting to the speed of the Pro's.

LeafNation
08-27-2008, 06:23 PM
I know that there are blitzes shown...it helps with unit cohesion and such...but they (for the most part) are truly vanilla and aren't top notch complex blitzes that you see in regular season is all. For example, if you watch our preseason games from last year, our D looked good but not great. Nothing highly impressive was shown but we still managed to be the #1 defensive unit (all around) Vikes beat us in the Rush D I believe but OVERALL we were first combined. You would never have gathered that with the lackluster showing from preseason is all I'm getting at.

Like I said there, co-ordinators obviously don't throw the whole playbook out there for blitzes (IE- don't show their whole packages)... And really, I don't care what the Steelers did last preseason.. They were not a young team with a bunch of new starters on the D-line and O-line, and they were not coming off a 1-15 season with a brand new coaching staff... Miami has a young team and I was talking about the "basic push" the lines were showing in their preseason games against good starting lines on Tampa and Jacksonville.

Again, Jacksonville pushed around Miami in the preseason game" last year".. We have a whole new D-line this season, and 3 new starters on the O-line.. And what was noticeable, and what I look for, is the "push".. This years preseason game vs Jacksonville ( a team who has very physical and strong lines), was a totally different story. It was Miami pushing them around on the lines.

You may discount preseason games altogether.. But there are some basic things that can be taken when the starters for both teams play during the first 15 - 20 minutes of the games.. For instance-

The new guys on the left side of our line are known for being mobile (as well as the 2nd year center known for being very mobile, that's why he was drafted in the 2nd round last season).... What I saw is they seem to excel with the mobility of Long, Smiley and Satele in the running game. The ability to run some traps, sweeps and counters because those guys can move into position to get leverage and angle against the defenders, it really looks promising.. More promising than i have seen in several years.. Actually, it's been quite a while since I have seen the O-line do that so well-- preseason, regular season or otherwise.. So yes, certain things can be taken from preseason games when starters are in for both teams. that's all I'm sayin' ;)

And Mendenhall will be a good one for the Steelers. Thanks for that tidbit about the fumbles. Didn't know that. But I think he will be a good one with that talent level of his.. He and Parker should be a deadly duo in the backfield there in Pitt.... I remember watching the draft when he was picked and I was surprised you took a RB in the 1st round, I was thinking you were going to take someone for the DL or OL...... And with that Keisel move there, interesting, Miami is doing the same thing with Matt Roth, they have similar size and Roth has excelled at OLB thus far (albeit it's very early still).. Interesting as they are similar moves by both teams and they have have similar size (and 2 whiteboys, heh).. Roth was a DE as well and they have him moving around looking like a Rover at times this preseason...

blkngldbabe
08-27-2008, 07:57 PM
Faneca looked alot worse than he actually was last year because he had to take on two men more frequently than not. Sean Mahan could NOT cover assignments adequately on certain packages so Alan needed to shore it up, making his play look worse. Also Marvel Smith had a back ailment that plagued him all season and he eventually had surgery. Marvel was shoring up the left side pretty much on his own all the while disliking the new scheme. The whole line was out of synch as well as we got a brand new shiny O-line coach who was implementing a new style of play to a team that was generally let go to do what they wanted as long as they covered their man. Faneca WAS a disruption last year though. Disgruntled Faneca was miffed that after years of being the top paid Guard in the League...the Vikes went and blew that deal away to take Hutch from the Seahawks. He wanted to be top dog so he took his ball and went home. Hope he's happy with the Jets. I don't think his play has declined that much at all either, the Steelers actually almost met the offer made by the Jets but didnt' offer the same sized signing bonus and he wanted out because they didn't take care of it the year before and the whole Grimm leaving thing. I don't see a huge decline with THIS particular Steelers FA.

But


Why? because of pro bowls? Everybody knows pro bowls mostly go by reputation.. I can give you countless examples of players not deserving of a pro bowl selection. I wasn;t surprised that the steelers let him go.. I have heard quite a few steeler fans upset with his pass blocking recently over the last couple of years.

Hey , if he does well for you, great.. But there has been a good history of Steeler players who have went to other teams and busted.. As a matter of fact, it's a longtime joke with people who really follow football.

I just don't believe in the free agent strategy as band aid solutions.. I pointed out clearly how the Pats, Steelers and Colts won super bowls recently by going the way of the draft.. Snider in Washington is notorious for getting any older free agent he can find to plug holes on his team, and he has done it for many years. Well the skins haven't been to the super bowl under Snider.. I just find it to be a philosophy destined for failure.

If the Jets win the super bowl this year, then more power to you. And I will be the first on here, in this thread, to congratulate the Jets (as much as it would pain me to do so)

blkngldbabe
08-27-2008, 08:18 PM
With Faneca gone, Zierlein takes charge

By Mike Prisuta
TRIBUNE-REVIEW
Thursday, July 31, 2008

It's not that Larry Zierlein received a promotion this offseason. His job title remains offensive line coach of the Steelers.

But with a year under his belt in that capacity and with Alan Faneca having sold his services to the New York Jets, Zierlein can actually coach the unit he oversees this season.

That's gotta help a team that surrendered 47 sacks a season ago.

"Alan's gone ... Coach Zierlein is the boss now," offensive tackle Willie Colon said upon reporting to St. Vincent College this week.

story continues below



The obvious inference was that Coach Zierlein was not the boss a year ago, a chain-of-command interpretation shared by offensive tackle Max Starks and, apparently, many among the rest of those responsible for Ben Roethlisberger's protection.

"Alan was the most tenured guy in our organization, so naturally you looked to him," Starks said. "Larry even looked to him. It was one of those things where Coach Zierlein came in and he was more like a moderator and kind of an intermediary guy. Alan was the one that kind of guided everybody.

"Now, he's gone, and it's Larry's entire offensive line."

Colon said he wasn't attempting to portray Faneca as some sort of "pirate captain."

And Starks insisted Zierlein "automatically had our respect because he was our position coach."

But in terms of actual coaching as it related to terminology and technique, Faneca, Starks said, was "kind of adamant" about still doing things the way he'd been doing them.

The veterans, thus, spoke Faneca-ese. The younger linemen listened to Zierlein's lingo. Lost in the translations at times was clarity regarding who should be blocked and how.

Now, the O-line is finally speaking what Starks defined as a "universal language," one that has "unified" and "simplified" the approach up front.

"It has nothing to do with any individual," Zierlein said. "It has to do with continuity and time.

"Alan Faneca is 100 percent pro. He did nothing but play his butt off and study. He did everything right. I think the world of the guy. I've known him for years. I recruited him (to LSU).

"Alan was the leader of the offensive line. We had a transition. There's always a transition. All I know is we were third in the league in rushing last year, and we gave up less sacks than they did the year before (49), so it's not like everything just went (downhill)."

Perhaps not, but with Faneca gone, there's reason to believe that's an inevitability this season.

Zierlein believes otherwise, and was confident enough on Wednesday to declare his starting unit "pretty well set," other than the competition at center, which will be decided between Sean Mahan and Justin Hartwig during preseason games.

Colon's a believer, too. And now that the terminology has been solved, there's no fear of a car passing by five Steelers offensive linemen and being identified as "red" by three of them and as "blue" by the other two.

"We're all gonna say it's the same color," Colon said. "Hopefully, it doesn't hit us."

Mike Prisuta is a columnist for the Tribune-Review. He can be reached at mprisuta@tribweb.com or 412-320-7923.

LeafNation
08-27-2008, 08:36 PM
I was also surprised you took another skill position player in Limas Sweed in the 2nd round.. Didn't he get hurt ? How's Bruce Davis looking, the DE you took in the 3rd round ? He seems pretty undersized for a 3-4 defensive end listed at around 250.. He must be at LB? And the OT Hills in the 4th ? How's he doing ? I remember Miami was talking about him as a possible later round pick.

blkngldbabe
08-27-2008, 08:41 PM
Our D-line depth frankly frightens me a bit. With A.Smith back healthy and Hampton in full form now I think our Starters are great on D, especially with the additions of Woodley to the lineup full time and working in Timmons (he'll be the starter by midseason I'm sure..he's a beast) It's the backups that I don't think are anything to count on at this moment.

O-line will be markedly improved for many reasons. I loved Big Red (Faneca) and we'll miss him, but Kemoeatu will be something to watch. Apparently he has quite the nasty demeanor and is a road grader. Big reach and a solid punch. He needs to work on his short setting though. It will come with some playing time as he really hasn't had alot of it being behind Alan. With Marvel Smith back to full health and not playing with immense pain (he had surgery to correct his ailing back earlier in the year) it will be like having a new player as apparently it has hampered him for a few years, last being the obvious worst. I have some concerns with Essex and Colon but I think we have enough weapons to work around a little bit of poor unit cohesion at first. They will be at the least adequate. They had a full year of SHort set practice and now know what the Coach Z is on about.

I was surprised we took Rashard but not upset. The way O-line was flying off the board it would have been a HUGE reach to go for the next available guard or tackle and a giant travesty to let a player of Mendenhall's ability slide past us because we were drafting for need and not BPA. Same thing goes for D-line. It wasn't as pressing of a concern IMO as the O-line this year. Does any FO in it's right mind draft a 3rd round pick in the first because they need O-line? No...but sadly things like this happen alot. Good thing, not to the Steelers. We've been fortunate to have players slide to us due to poor combines and injuries in the season before. Heath Miller, Mendy, Even Sweed. Ben slid to us because of the division he played in. How ridiculous is that? Have you seen the players drafted before him that year? Joke's on those teams for the most part. Some got what they needed but they were the exception and not the rule.

It looks like this years draft is chock full of goodness for the O-line and D-line positions so Yay us!

blkngldbabe
08-27-2008, 08:50 PM
I was also surprised you took another skill position player in Limas Sweed in the 2nd round.. Didn't he get hurt ? How's Bruce Davis looking, the DE you took in the 3rd round ? He seems pretty undersized for a 3-4 defensive end listed at around 250.. He must be at LB? And the OT Hills in the 4th ? How's he doing ? I remember Miami was talking about him as a possible later round pick.


Davis is a tweener for sure. He's been playing LB and needs to add weight for sure. He's smart though and is picking up the playbook well from what I've heard. Too bad he is raw and needs serious strength and conditioning work before he'll stick on a roster. Hills didn't really flash brightly either.

Limas Sweed is a great route runner and is the Tall WR that Ben has been lusting for. He needs concentration work. He's tough and isn't afraid to go over the middle...he has good speed and can make the tough catch but has come down with a serious case of the dropsies. He was coming off of a wrist injury that happened near the end of the season or in a big game (can't remember)

I know Ben had been bugging and as I mentioned about the O=line being gone (at least the ones on our board) we went with BPA. he had been projected to be a 1st rounder..so another gem that slid down due to injury. We had to take a chance as his intangeables seem great and he has the speed and size that we've been trying to add. Ward is currently the shortest WR on the roster as they have an average of 6'4 now. LOL!

LeafNation
08-27-2008, 08:59 PM
Davis is a tweener for sure. He's been playing LB and needs to add weight for sure. He's smart though and is picking up the playbook well from what I've heard. Too bad he is raw and needs serious strength and conditioning work before he'll stick on a roster. Hills didn't really flash brightly either.

Funny, just as you wrote that, I looked it up and Tomlin doesn't seem too happy with Davis-

http://rototimes.com/nfl/player/7283



Limas Sweed is a great route runner and is the Tall WR that Ben has been lusting for. He needs concentration work. He's tough and isn't afraid to go over the middle...he has good speed and can make the tough catch but has come down with a serious case of the dropsies. He was coming off of a wrist injury that happened near the end of the season or in a big game (can't remember)

I wouldn't worry about it as WR's usually take 3 years to really show their stuff in the NFL.. While a few can come right out the gate and produce, they usually take a couple years to develop.


I know Ben had been bugging and as I mentioned about the O=line being gone (at least the ones on our board) we went with BPA. he had been projected to be a 1st rounder..so another gem that slid down due to injury. We had to take a chance as his intangeables seem great and he has the speed and size that we've been trying to add. Ward is currently the shortest WR on the roster as they have an average of 6'4 now. LOL!

I know all about players dropping.. Philip Merling was projected to go in the top 15 by some (in that mock above you see him going at #17).. And some said he was the 2nd best run stopper in the entire draft.. He dropped because teams were scared of his sports hernia, but it has been fully healed.... When we picked him at 32, I was ecstatic.. The same for Henne.. He was projected to go by some in the late first round/early 2nd round.. He was a late riser being the MVP of the senior bowl for the North, and the MVP of the bowl game vs Florida.. The fact that we got him in the late 2nd at #57 was just amazing..

Just look at the Joe Flacco selection in the 1st round by Baltimore.. He is a QB project coming from a small school and has looked absolutely horrible in preseason and in practices.. Heck, Troy freakin Smith is way ahead of him on the depth chart - a 5th round selection last year by the Ravens..... Flacco will take 3 or 4 years to get it... Chad Henne is a much more polished QB and a lot more NFL ready playing 4 years at a big school like Michigan, and playing in a pro style offense throughout his entire college career. Drafting him where we did was a real value pick.. While some liked Brohm, who was picked right before Henne, I didn't.. Brohm is a west-coast style QB and would just never fit with our pro-style offense.. Hence the west-coast offense Green Bay Packers selecting Brohm.. While I did like Brohm some initially, after researching more he just wouldn't fit in with the offense we are going to run.

And of course, getting Donald Thomas in the 6th was just plain old blind robbery. The guy is looking like an All-Pro out there.

But I wouldn't worry about Sweed. He has some good WR's there in Pittsburgh to mentor him for a year or two before he's really ready and shows what he can do. And the Mendenhall/Parker combo in the backfield for the Steelers should drive defensive co-ordinators nuts for awhile.

You certainly made your offense more explosive.

LeafNation
08-27-2008, 10:15 PM
Yeah, thats defiantly something the Jets haven't had in a long time. I'm not sure if he'll start, but he'll definately play a lot. Especially considering how Farve likes to use his tight ends.

But yeah, he definitely could pose some pretty big match up problems. Most linebackers flat out can't cover him. So if you put a safety on him, well then you are leaving Coles or Cotchery in man on man. Which at this point, maybe later in the season depending on how Keller progresses, you don't want.

He's not a great blocker though, so they probably will use a lot of two TE sets, with Franks in there.

He received his first TD, on a pass from Farve. it was also Farve's first TD as a Jet. During the game Farve said to him he thought about giving Keller the ball, but he actually wanted to keep it. Then after the game Farve handed him the ball signed and said "Congratulations on your first TD."

Not relevant. Just a good story.

The more I think about it, the more I think this game could be a shootout.. The players really love Pennington as their leader, and I am sure they will play balls out for him on opening day to exact revenge on his former team..

There has been some crazy games played on opening week with all the pent up emotions waiting for opening day..

I remember being at a classic game in Miami's season opener in 1994.. Marino and Bledsoe combined for almost 1000 yards passing in that game.. It was an old-fashioned gun slinging game.. Final score 39-35 Miami- And boy, WHAT a game to witness.. Here's a video showing the end of that contest-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ki0j3GL2cY

Now you may say that Penny may not have it to get a lot of yards, but remember his first 2 weeks of the 2006 season when Pennington had about 350 yards passing per game in the first 2 weeks of the season (or was it opening day and the 3rd week?).. Also Pennington knows every tendency of that Jets defense as he practiced against them every day for weeks during camp. And you know he will exploit everything he knows about that defense,..

And you just know his play action is one of the best out there.. But you can't execute play action unless you can run the ball. If Miami's new O-line in front of Ricky Williams and Ronnie Brown can establish the run early, expect some play action passes sucking the LB's and safeties in..

I can also see Favre gun-slinging it that day if Miami has a problem bringing a pass rush.. I can also see Ginn taking one to the house as he has looked really good in camp and preseason... It could be a barn burner down there. It will be by far the most anticipated game of week 1 with all the story lines there.

I just have a feeling the Dolphins will come together and really try to win one for Pennington against his former team.. The players really seem to love that guy hearing what they say about him in interviews every day.. Coming off a 1-15 season, I think the team will be jacked up to turn things around on opening day wanting to surprise the world..
By the same token, I am sure the Jets will try to win it for Favre. But all the pressure is on the Jets coming down to win that game in that heat and humidity.. It should be a great game. Now as I say it could be a shootout, watch it end up being a defensive kind of game, LOL

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/pro--sports/PennySatele.jpg

MyNameIsJonas
08-27-2008, 11:28 PM
i loved that sparano clip nation,,,,,loved it

and im liking Fasano despite the comment

PlayerToBeNamedLater
08-28-2008, 04:35 PM
i will throw out some predictions

AFC - New England, Pittsburgh, Jacksonsville, San Diego, *Indianapolis, *NY Jets

*Wildcard

NFC - Dallas, Minnesota, New Orleans, Seattle, *NY Giants, *Carolina

*Wildcard

Superbowl: Jacksonville over New Orleans

TheCountofMonteCristo
08-28-2008, 04:44 PM
I don't know about the Giants. With Umenyiora out for the year and Strahan turning them down, they will have no pass rush.

Adam Jones was reinstated for the Cowboys which is good news for the secondary. Cowboys are a little banged up on defence and the Oline but with their talent, they should win the division.

I am picking them to win the SB this year IF they can get the special teams to play better.

mbow30
08-28-2008, 04:49 PM
it'll be interesting to see how teams react to jacksonville this year. the jags and garrard won't be sneaking up on anybody, teams will be ready for them--their work is cut out for them. of cousre, if garrard turns out to be the real deal, which i think he is, they could challenge indy for the division title.

blkngldbabe
08-28-2008, 05:07 PM
Jax is a truly physical specimen. I do think though that teams will be more ready for them this year. IF a team has any decent Rush Defense Jones-drew can be contained...or limited lets say. It's all a matter of who's physical enough to impose their will. I think a few teams may be able to hang with them. They do have a chance at the division for sure though. Colts could have a sloppy year if their O-line woes continue.

TheCountofMonteCristo
08-28-2008, 05:36 PM
I'm not convinced a team from Florida can travel to a cold weather site in January and win.

LeafNation
08-28-2008, 06:02 PM
I'm not convinced a team from Florida can travel to a cold weather site in January and win.

Interesting..

In January 2003, the Tampa Bay Bucs traveled to Philadelphia and won the NFC championship game by the score of 27-10. The Bucs then won the Super Bowl in a rout over the Raiders in the Super Bowl



"They also won in the freezing cold too. It was only 22 degrees"

http://philadelphia-eagles.net/history/2002/2002-nfc.html

LeafNation
08-28-2008, 06:16 PM
Another one is-

Last season in the playoffs, Jacksonville defeated the Steelers in Pittsburgh on January 5th 2008.

That was a very good game by the way.

I also remember San Diego going into Pittsburgh in January for the AFC championship game in 1995, and defeating the Steelers to go to the Super Bowl.. While not a Florida team, San Diego is still considered a warm weather team.

LeafNation
08-28-2008, 06:36 PM
and just one more for good measure-

In 1996 Jacksonville went into Buffalo and defeated the Bills in the playoffs..

http://www.football.com/nfl/playoffs/1996.html

TheCountofMonteCristo
08-28-2008, 06:39 PM
Last time I checked, San Diego is not in Florida.

If I recall correctly, that is the only time Tampa has ever won on such a cold day.

Furthermore, it isn't like the Steelers were anything special last year, they won their division mostly because it was the weakest in the NFL. They were at home but if I recall correctly, had a worse record than the Jaguars.

As an aside, I always love it when someone does google searches to try and prove you wrong when really all that has happened is they have shown exceptions which prove the rule.

If in the last 12 years, you can only come up with three such instances, you have basically proven my point.

LeafNation
08-28-2008, 06:44 PM
As an aside, I always love it when someone does google searches to try and prove you wrong when really all that has happened is they have shown exceptions which prove the rule.

LOL. That's weak.. I watched every one of those games.


If in the last 12 years, you can only come up with three such instances, you have basically proven my point.

It's not impossible (as you implied) for a Florida team to go up in the cold and win an important playoff game..

TheCountofMonteCristo
08-28-2008, 06:53 PM
Nothing is impossible but it is not a yearly occurrence.

LeafNation
08-28-2008, 06:54 PM
If in the last 12 years, you can only come up with three such instances

Except for the fact that it's not every year that Florida teams even travel to cold weather climates in the playoffs..

Then again, you had a Florida team like Jacksonville who in one playoff run, beat two teams in consecutive weeks in cold weather climates.. In Buffalo, then in Denver (in January).. And the Jaguars were heavy underdogs in both matchups ;)

LeafNation
08-28-2008, 07:20 PM
If anyone is in the mood to watch some preseason football right now, as there are a lot of games tonight, here you go- ( and you don't need to download anything)

NY Jets vs Philadelphia

http://www.justin.tv/eltr3m3ndo

NY Giants vs New England

http://www.justin.tv/sportcenter

Jacksonville vs Washington ( Al Michaels and John Madden are calling this one)

http://www.justin.tv/triuslater

Detroit vs Buffalo

http://www.justin.tv/mckctv

JaysCyYoung
08-28-2008, 07:21 PM
Following the NFL has always been difficult for me because of the lack of a regional or Canadian team. It's hard to forge a bond or alliance with a team in another city or to even CHOOSE one of the 32 teams for that matter. How would you decide?

TheCountofMonteCristo
08-28-2008, 07:44 PM
Buffalo is pretty regional for you. Hell, in two years they will be playing in a brand new 90000 seat stadium in Etobicoke

JaysCyYoung
08-28-2008, 08:01 PM
Buffalo is pretty regional for you. Hell, in two years they will be playing in a brand new 90000 seat stadium in Etobicoke

Meh. There's something wrong about cheering for a team from that hole in the ground. Until they relocate to Toronto they won't be receiving any support from me.

LeafNation
08-28-2008, 08:08 PM
Axl, Jonas and the Dolphins fans here.. Here's the video feed of the Dolphins - Saints game that just kicked off a couple minutes ago

http://www.justin.tv/widgets/jtv_live.r8713.swf?channel=medieval954

Just click the play button :thumbup1:

mbow30
08-28-2008, 08:11 PM
Jax is a truly physical specimen. I do think though that teams will be more ready for them this year. IF a team has any decent Rush Defense Jones-drew can be contained...or limited lets say. It's all a matter of who's physical enough to impose their will. I think a few teams may be able to hang with them. They do have a chance at the division for sure though. Colts could have a sloppy year if their O-line woes continue.

perhaps jones-drew can be contained... unfortunately for other teams, he's the team's second best back.

of course, at his age, taylor could stumble but given that he's been able to work on a drastically reduced workload the past two seasons i think he should have a longer shelf life than your average running back.

TheCountofMonteCristo
08-28-2008, 08:14 PM
and the fact he missed so much time with injury in the past, he has been around forever but really hasn't played all that much

I guess the real question is can you win with a below average QB, no really good WRs and nothing but a running attack in 2008. That is why they play the games, to find out.

LeafNation
08-28-2008, 08:15 PM
Here is another feed of the dolphins-saints game live right now.

http://www.justin.tv/medieval954

mbow30
08-28-2008, 08:15 PM
well, except for the fact that garrard looked anything BUT below average last year.

102 qb rating and only 3 picks in 12 games. that's a real qb. he still has some proving to do but his audition last season was an overwhelming success. at the very least he will turn out to be an average qb, but if he repeats his 2007 he's a great field general and top quarterback.

TheCountofMonteCristo
08-28-2008, 08:23 PM
He had a good year for sure, whether it was blip or not remains to be seen. I am pretty sure though he will make no one forget Tom Brady, Tony Romo, Peyton/Eli Manning or any of the other top QBs.

mbow30
08-28-2008, 08:25 PM
are you seriously putting eli manning in that group? even romo's a stretch.

i would take garrard over eli manning, no question about that.

worm
08-28-2008, 08:34 PM
Here is another feed of the dolphins-saints game live right now.

http://www.justin.tv/medieval954

thanks :D

TheCountofMonteCristo
08-28-2008, 08:35 PM
Eli won a SB that puts him in the elite at this point.

Romo clearly has to be top 5 now.

You can also put Carson Palmer, Drew Brees and Matt Hasselbeck (and maybe McNumbnuts in Philadelphia) ahead of Garrard

JaysCyYoung
08-28-2008, 08:39 PM
I'm not a huge NFL fan so don't butcher me for this list but my top five list would be...

1. Tom Brady
2. Peyton Manning
3. Drew Brees
4. Carson Palmer
5. Philip Rivers

Romo and Hasselbeck would be just on the outside looking in for me.

mbow30
08-28-2008, 08:39 PM
eli is an elite qb because he won a superbowl?

is trent dilfer an elite qb? brad johnson?

come on, let's not get ahead of ourselves. eli manning has been a decidedly average qb throughout his nfl career. winning the superbowl hasn't changed that.

mbow30
08-28-2008, 08:41 PM
I'm not a huge NFL fan so don't butcher me for this list but my top five list would be...

1. Tom Brady
2. Peyton Manning
3. Drew Brees
4. Carson Palmer
5. Philip Rivers

Romo and Hasselbeck would be just on the outside looking.

if garrard replicates his 2007 campaign he will fit nicely into a grouping with brees and perhaps romo and hasselbeck.

rivers still has proving to do; as it stands, garrard outperformed him last season.


and i'm not sure what to think about palmer. tough to get a read on him with all the BS he has had to deal with in cinci.

JaysCyYoung
08-28-2008, 08:43 PM
Like I said, I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to the NFL but Palmer's 104 TD to just 63 interception ratio is excellent is it not? Not to mention the career passer rating above 90. What other ways are there of properly judging quarterback values?

TheCountofMonteCristo
08-28-2008, 08:43 PM
eli is an elite qb because he won a superbowl?

is trent dilfer an elite qb? brad johnson?

come on, let's not get ahead of ourselves. eli manning has been a decidedly average qb throughout his nfl career. winning the superbowl hasn't changed that.

I figured you would bring them up but given they won only because of their defences whereas Eli's play in the playoffs was a major factor in the SB, it is not a good comparison.

TheCountofMonteCristo
08-28-2008, 08:44 PM
I'm not a huge NFL fan so don't butcher me for this list but my top five list would be...

1. Tom Brady
2. Peyton Manning
3. Drew Brees
4. Carson Palmer
5. Philip Rivers

Romo and Hasselbeck would be just on the outside looking in for me.

Romo is ahead of both Brees and Rivers

soco22
08-28-2008, 08:50 PM
I figured you would bring them up but given they won only because of their defences whereas Eli's play in the playoffs was a major factor in the SB, it is not a good comparison.

My perspective is, yes, he did have that one amazing play - but NY won the superbowl because of their defense.

They did an amazing job - and that front four was the difference in the game with all the pressure they put on Brady. Won't say it's only because of the defense, but I'm close to saying it was only because of it.

mbow30
08-28-2008, 08:51 PM
I figured you would bring them up but given they won only because of their defences whereas Eli's play in the playoffs was a major factor in the SB, it is not a good comparison.

4 games does not wipe out 4 years of mediocrity.

until eli gains some consistency, brad johnson remains a better qb.

mbow30
08-28-2008, 08:52 PM
Like I said, I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to the NFL but Palmer's 104 TD to just 63 interception ratio is excellent is it not? Not to mention the career passer rating above 90. What other ways are there of properly judging quarterback values?

oh, he's definitely an excellent QB, but team accomplishments have to be taken into account when you're talking about a qb and they haven't been there for palmer. now, a lot of that is because the bengals are and always have been a mess (over the past few years because of their off-field issues) but you still have to take that into account.

his numbers have also declined in each of the past two seasons.

LeafNation
08-28-2008, 08:53 PM
Romo is ahead of both Brees and Rivers

I may agree with Rivers.. But no way is Romo ahead of Brees.. No way no how.

Maybe in the future, but not right now.

LeafNation
08-28-2008, 08:55 PM
Oh jesus.. Dolphins offensive line is going through some growing pains in this game tonight

http://www.justin.tv/medieval954

Maybe a good thing as their heads were getting a little too big with their success earlier.

mbow30
08-28-2008, 08:56 PM
Oh jesus.. Dolphins offensive line is going through some growing pains in this game tonight

http://www.justin.tv/medieval954

hey they're on the right path. they won't go 1-15 again, but they still have a ways to go.

but parcells will assemble a winner, no doubt about that.

leafman101
08-28-2008, 09:12 PM
1. Payton
2. Brady
3. Brees
4. Palmer
5. Hasselback
6. Romo
7. Farve
8. McNabb
9. Roethesburger
10. Garrard.

Eli was great in the Super Bowl. Don't compare him to trent Dilfer. He showed he can be great. But he has to do it for a full game, nevermind full season.

leaffan2005
08-28-2008, 09:21 PM
1. Brady
2. Manning
3. Palmer
4. Brees
5. Romo
6. Roethlisberger
7. Hasselback
8. McNabb
9. Favre
10. Garrard


We could see Matt Schaub and/or Jay Cutler become part of the top-ten as soon as this season if they perform as expected. Oh, and I think a lot of people are really underrating Romo.

blkngldbabe
08-28-2008, 09:24 PM
How in good God's name is Palmer ahead of Farve first of all..and Roethlisberger is NOWHERE near ninth. Palmer has never won a playoff game and has only managed to float his team to one. How does that garner being 4th overall? Hasselbeck plays in a cupcake division but at least managed to get to a Bowl game... Romo still needs to prove himself in the big games but looks good regular season..Brees? What is this a Stat a thon? He is no slouch by any means but is far from top three material in the league currently.

LeafNation
08-28-2008, 09:36 PM
Wow. All through preseason (and training camp) I have loved rookie Chad Henne's poise and confidence (and accuracy).

After his first 2 passes that fell incomplete, and a fumble and sack very early in the game tonight.. He comes back with a huge chip on his shoulder showing tremendous poise and confidence going 11 for 11 for 108 yards on 2 long TD drives right before the end of the 1st half.. Just looking great out there with his demeanor in the huddle and leading the offense. Very impressive.

Remember that name, Chad Henne.. He is Miami's future QB.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/pro--sports/Henne.jpg

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/pro--sports/HenneThrow.jpg

leafman101
08-28-2008, 09:39 PM
How in good God's name is Palmer ahead of Farve first of all..and Roethlisberger is NOWHERE near ninth. Palmer has never won a playoff game and has only managed to float his team to one. How does that garner being 4th overall? Hasselbeck plays in a cupcake division but at least managed to get to a Bowl game... Romo still needs to prove himself in the big games but looks good regular season..Brees? What is this a Stat a thon? He is no slouch by any means but is far from top three material in the league currently.

Palmer is the ideal quarterback. If you could make a QB from scratch, its that guy.

As for Roethlisberger, I'm not exactly sure how far from 9th you can put him. IMO he's not as good as Manning, Brady, Brees, Palmer, Farve, Romo. I guess you could slide him in 7th. Personally I'd take Hasselback, and if McNabb can return to form from a couple years ago, I take him no questions asked.

He's pretty close, at least arguably, to 9th.

LeafNation
08-28-2008, 10:31 PM
Leafman101.. A Warning for you.... Don't argue with BlkNGold regarding Roethlisberger.. A couple of years ago she told me that he was better than Marino..

Well let me just say that it didn't get pretty after that (as pretty as she is), heh .. Just warning ya ;)

leafman101
08-28-2008, 10:50 PM
Leafman101.. A Warning for you.... Don't argue with BlkNGold regarding Roethlisberger.. A couple of years ago she told me that he was better than Marino..

Well let me just say that it didn't get pretty after that (as pretty as she is), heh .. Just warning ya ;)

Heh..fair enough.

Screw all this preseason bullshit....lets get this thing started already.

Just over 1 week...

blkngldbabe
08-28-2008, 10:52 PM
Leafman101.. A Warning for you.... Don't argue with BlkNGold regarding Roethlisberger.. A couple of years ago she told me that he was better than Marino..

Well let me just say that it didn't get pretty after that (as pretty as she is), heh .. Just warning ya ;)

Ah misremembering....I said Ben beat alot of his rookie records. You said NO WAY. I would never argue that a rookie RB is better than a HOF QB. Just that he had a kickass rookie campaign that was starting to measure up to the greatness that was Marino.DOesn't matter, bygones. But seriously LN...do you agree with the top ten assessments? I figured if anyone would have something to say it would be you.

Just some info..

In order of passer rating from last season

Player Team Pos Comp Att Pct Att/G Yds Avg Yds/G TD Int 1st 1st% Lng 20+ 40+ Sck Rate
1 Tom Brady NE QB 398 578 68.9 36.1 4,806 8.3 300.4 50 8 240 41.5 69T 56 15 21 117.2
2 Ben Roethr PIT QB 264 404 65.3 26.9 3,154 7.8 210.3 32 11 168 41.6 83 39 6 47 104.1
3 David Garrard JAC QB 208 325 64.0 27.1 2,509 7.7 209.1 18 3 126 38.8 59T 34 5 21 102.2
4 Peyton Manning IND QB 337 515 65.4 32.2 4,040 7.8 252.5 31 14 205 39.8 73T 53 9 21 98.0
5 Tony Romo DAL QB 335 520 64.4 32.5 4,211 8.1 263.2 36 19 215 41.3 59T 55 11 24 97.4
6 Brett Favre GB QB 356 535 66.5 33.4 4,155 7.8 259.7 28 15 197 36.8 82T 49 16 15 95.7
7 Jeff Garcia TB QB 209 327 63.9 25.2 2,440 7.5 187.7 13 4 112 34.3 69T 29 8 19 94.6
8 Matt Hassk SEA QB 352 562 62.6 35.1 3,966 7.1 247.9 28 12 204 36.3 65 48 7 33 91.4
9 Donovan McNabb PHI QB 291 473 61.5 33.8 3,324 7.0 237.4 19 7 152 32.1 75T 35 10 44 89.9
10 Kurt Warner ARI QB 281 451 62.3 32.2 3,417 7.6 244.1 27 17 167 37.0 62 44 5 20 89.8

By Touchdown passes

Player Team Pos Comp Att Pct Att/G Yds Avg Yds/G TD Int 1st 1st% Lng 20+ 40+ Sck Rate
1 Tom Brady NE QB 398 578 68.9 36.1 4,806 8.3 300.4 50 8 240 41.5 69T 56 15 21 117.2
2 Tony Romo DAL QB 335 520 64.4 32.5 4,211 8.1 263.2 36 19 215 41.3 59T 55 11 24 97.4
3 Ben Roethr PIT QB 264 404 65.3 26.9 3,154 7.8 210.3 32 11 168 41.6 83 39 6 47 104.1
4 Peyton Manning IND QB 337 515 65.4 32.2 4,040 7.8 252.5 31 14 205 39.8 73T 53 9 21 98.0
5 Derek Anderson CLE QB 298 527 56.5 32.9 3,787 7.2 236.7 29 19 187 35.5 78T 53 6 14 82.5
6 Drew Brees NO QB 440 652 67.5 40.8 4,423 6.8 276.4 28 18 232 35.6 58 47 8 16 89.4
6 Brett Favre GB QB 356 535 66.5 33.4 4,155 7.8 259.7 28 15 197 36.8 82T 49 16 15 95.7
6 Matt Hassk SEA QB 352 562 62.6 35.1 3,966 7.1 247.9 28 12 204 36.3 65 48 7 33 91.4
9 Kurt Warner ARI QB 281 451 62.3 32.2 3,417 7.6 244.1 27 17 167 37.0 62 44 5 20 89.8
10 Carson Palmer CIN QB 373 575 64.9 35.9 4,131 7.2 258.2 26 20 213 37.0 70T 51 8 17 86.7

Check out the average gain per passing plays. Look at completion percentage and then check out how many attempts. I'd show you all of the categories but no need to
take up that much band width. Check out your top ten against the numbers. Who makes the best of what they have? Take into account run first teams vs west coast teams etc.
That is the only way to make a fair assessment of top QB talent. Palmer had all of 26 TD's vs 20 INTS Brady was godlike and Manning had a very good year as well. Check
Out the trends from past years...who is consistent? Meh, no matter it's all speculation and opinion anyways but picking a popular name doesn't always mean top ten is all.

LeafNation
08-28-2008, 10:52 PM
hey they're on the right path. they won't go 1-15 again, but they still have a ways to go.

but parcells will assemble a winner, no doubt about that.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/pro--sports/BillTheGambler.gif

:thumbsup(22):

If people don't get it, Chad Henne wears 7 and Jake Long wears 77. heh

leafman101
08-28-2008, 11:12 PM
Take into account run first teams vs west coast teams etc.


I've always seen him as more of a system QB. Play efficiently. Don't make mistakes, and play within the system. As long as he can do that, the Steelers can play their time of possession game, and it works. Maybe he is better than that, but as far as I am concerned he hasn't been able to show it.

LeafNation
08-28-2008, 11:24 PM
Ah misremembering....I said Ben beat alot of his rookie records. You said NO WAY. I would never argue that a rookie RB is better than a HOF QB. Just that he had a kickass rookie campaign that was starting to measure up to the greatness that was Marino..

First off, Marino didnt start the season that year.. He came in in game 6 of the year.. And even then, he had 20 TD's and 6 INT's compared to Roth's 17 TD's and 11 INT's . And Roth played 3 more games than Marino did.

So of course, the only way you can even bring up anything, it has to be on an uneven playing field.. Nevermind the fact that Roth had a great running game helping him out GREATLY.. Marino never had a 1000 yard back until very late in is career.

Now if you want to bring QB ratings of year 1, well there are quite a few QB's who had better QB ratings that MArino in his very first year when he only played 11 games.. But of course, no one in their right mind would ever put a lot of those QB's in the same sentence with Marino.

Now, let's look at the first FULL year of each QB... Marino had over 5,000 yards and 48 TD's in his first full year, and with a 109 QB rating..

Those are numbers Roth will never EVER come close to approaching. Nevermind all those Marino records.

Now, you admittedly didn't start watching football until recently (relatively speaking). You totally missed Marino's first 10+ seasons as you weren't even a fan of the NFL.

To be honest, I don't even understand why I have to defend Marino to Roethlisberger, of all people.. Not that I think he stinks or anything, he is without a doubt a good QB.. He is a good "system Qb" for his system there, no doubt about it.. But to even try to put him up there with the greatest ever is just ridiculous.

LeafNation
08-28-2008, 11:29 PM
And lastly, before I go out for the evening-- Not only did Marino not have the benefit of a running game, but the rules of Pass interference were TOTALLY different back then..

Back in the early 80's, cornerbacks could drape on a receiver without being called left and right like they do today...

The new rules have GREATLY benefited offense since that early 80's era (and benefited the passing game-- benefits Marino didn't have)... That is Huge.. And if you ignore that fact, then you are obviously biased. Plain and simple.

When Marino came into the league, he took the NFL world by Storm.. He totally changed how defenses play against the pass. The guy actually had an affect on the game itself (and it's strategy).. What you oughta do is listen to the great mastermind Bill Walsh and what he said about that... Listen to what he said about Marino changing the strategy of defensive co-ordinators around the league in defending the pass.

He changed the game similar to the affect Lawrence Taylor had on offenses, changing the way offenses have to account for a pass rusher like that from the LB position..... Roethlisberger will never have an effect on the game like that.. Not in his rookie year, not ever.

mbow30
08-28-2008, 11:57 PM
Eli was great in the Super Bowl. Don't compare him to trent Dilfer. He showed he can be great. But he has to do it for a full game, nevermind full season.

i didn't compare him to dilfer. but the if the argument is that eli manning is a top qb because he won the super bowl... well, dilfer's a name that has to be entered into that discussion.

there is no doubt that eli manning has loads of potential. he obviously will never be great like his brother, but certainly to be a top-10 QB in this league. but he hasn't done it yet, and winning the super bowl doesnt' mean he's done it--because plenty of mediocre qb's have been to or won the big game.

mbow30
08-28-2008, 11:58 PM
I've always seen him as more of a system QB. Play efficiently. Don't make mistakes, and play within the system. As long as he can do that, the Steelers can play their time of possession game, and it works. Maybe he is better than that, but as far as I am concerned he hasn't been able to show it.

the thing with roethlisberger that i like is that he has shown an ability to step up and make plays when he can't just fall back on the system.

TheCountofMonteCristo
08-29-2008, 12:03 AM
Garrard is more of a bus driver than the guy with the long name

leaffan2005
08-29-2008, 12:04 AM
Ben's really tough to sack, and like you say, he is very good at "creating" when the play falls apart and rarely makes any brain cramps that cost his team. Very smart, efficient QB with a huge arm to boot.

The Steelers will always be a run-first team, but it would be nice to see them play a more wide-open passing game, because they certainly have the personel to put forth a New Orleans style offense on the field any given Sunday if they wanted. Mendenhall and Smeed especially give them a lot of athleticism and flash, and are nice compliments to Holmes and Parker. Ward has declined over the years, but is still a sure catch, and they have a big sure-handed tight end in Heath Miller who is a nice red-zone target.

Very well-built team, the Steelers, imo.

blkngldbabe
08-29-2008, 09:25 AM
I think 18 years is a decent length of time following a sport...maybe not.

Big Ben came in to a team coming off of a 6-10 record with a pretty shoddy O-line. Marino came to a team that just lost the Superbowl. No wonder he didn't play until the sixth week. ANyhoo...I wasn't hoping to revisit your love fest for Marino in any way shape or form. Hence I'm not going to get goaded into further back and forth (no, not because I'm conceding just because it's old and tired and doesn't need to be brought back IMO)


Everyone gets excited about their team and it's prospects but before you flay someone else for having a differing opine remember that YOU aren't always right. ie.You thought that FUmblepepper was going to bring a Saban led Phins team to the promised land, stealing the division from the Pats. We all have moments of misguided optimism. Try not to dwell on four years prior. Not all prognostications were spot on...or even close for that matter. Its for fun right? Thats why we aren't in sports for a living.

LeafNation
08-29-2008, 01:31 PM
I think 18 years is a decent length of time following a sport..

Not long enough to watch Marino play in the first half of his career.


No wonder he didn't play until the sixth week

That's pretty weak considering it's customary to ease in a rookie QB.. Nevermind the fact that Marino was younger than Roethlisberger when they both started their first game ;) . Of course that fact goes right over your head and your bias... But like you said, no sense in discussing this any longer because comparing the two is ridiculous.. If you'd like to, that's fine. I could easily show you some articles from coaches in that era stating emphatically how Marino revolutionized how defenses defend against the pass -- Since you weren't following the game at that time maybe you can learn something ;) ..

Comparing Roth with Marino ? LMAO.. Get real babe.. Forget Marino, there are a plethora of QB's I would take over Roethlisberger.. Dan Fouts for one.. Let's start with Fouts and a boatload of other QB's before Marino even gets brought up when you try to put Roethlisberger in the same sentence with others..


Everyone gets excited about their team and it's prospects but before you flay someone else for having a differing opine remember that YOU aren't always right

Oh nobody's always right. Including me.. But by the same token, trying to compare Roethlisberger to Marino is absolutely ridiculous... All because every Steeler fan and their mother wished they drafted Marino (since he's from Pittsburgh) with all those crappy and pathetic QB's you had during Marino's career, doesn't mean you can make such ridiculous comments...


You thought that FUmblepepper was going to bring a Saban led Phins team to the promised land

yes, Not only did Miami have bad team doctors saying his knee was ok, but the biggest mistake of this decade was deciding on Cpep over Brees when both were available ( if you remember, I wanted Brees). ;)


We all have moments of misguided optimism.Try not to dwell on four years prior. Not all prognostications were spot on

Okay, now you're talking about two totally different things.. What Marino and Roth did ALREADY happened.. It has nothing to do with prognostications on the future.. It does not require guess work.. But I guess you were desperate to change the subject.


Its for fun right? Thats why we aren't in sports for a living.

Yes it is for fun.. But god forbid if anyone says anything negative about a Steeler player.. God forbid, or you lose it.... Hell, I posted a video of the Steelers winning the super bowl in the 70's earlier saying they were a damn good team.. And you come in here with all kinds of sports Illustrated links and long posts going whole hog (since you are so insecure with your team), as if I was trying to diminish their success in the 70's with that comment.

I mean, get real man.. It's rather comical how you fly off the handle over nothing. I mean, you even flew off at someone POSTING a Pitt super bowl game and victory.. Unbelievable.. :cheers2:

LeafNation
08-29-2008, 02:13 PM
Brees or not, I find it very encouraging that Miami held New Orleans to only 99 total net yards through the entire game.. I don't care if it's preseason or not, to hold a team to less than 100 total yards through 4 quarters of play is something

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/boxscore?game_id=29840&displayPage=tab_box_score&season=2008&week=PRE4

As I say that, watch them give up 400 in week 1.. lol

Montana
08-29-2008, 02:20 PM
Great game for Ronnie Brown as well......if his knee can hold up, you're going to have one hell of a 1-2 punch down there.......(and Pennington's got a great play-action pass, if you can set it up with the run)

LeafNation
08-29-2008, 02:24 PM
Last night Ronnie had glimpses of Ronnie before the ACL injury when he led the league in total yards from scrimmage last year.. He showed some good explosiveness and burst....

At the time of his injury in week 7, Ronnie Brown led the league in total yards with 991, at over 5 yards per carry.. All with a subpar offensive line.. He is a beast.. He and Ricky should be a heck of a combo in the backfield.

I just wish we had one more good receiver to spread the field so defenses can't play "8 in the box".. Either way though, they should be a great combo of power in the backfield.. Back in 2005 when both were in the lineup, the fins ran off 6 wins in a row on the backs of Ronnie and Ricky in the backfield.. Those 2 just carried the team by themselves... The key is health though.. HEALTH HEALTH HEALTH.. And MORE health.. Just please be healthy all season, to those 2.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/pro--sports/RonRunsOverRaiders.jpg

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/pro--sports/RonnieBrown.gif

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/pro--sports/ricky_stiffarm_mickens.jpg

blkngldbabe
08-29-2008, 02:50 PM
LOL...nobody's mad Muffin. I was teasing by pointing out we were GREAT and you said Really good. I don't see how that is flying off the handle *shrug* :smile(21):

LeafNation
08-29-2008, 03:33 PM
How bout this.. I predict the Steelers will win their division and make it to the AFC championship game.. Depending on health, as health is HUGE, I can't predict more than that.. And I have some questions regarding their defense, but I think they can pull it together.

Fair enough ?

LeafNation
08-29-2008, 03:51 PM
Absolute BEAST !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ifs72pD3Qfg

That's a one-man wrecking crew.

Please keep that knee healthy.. Whatever it takes.. Bathe it in Holy water, whatever you gotta do.

blkngldbabe
08-29-2008, 04:16 PM
How bout this.. I predict the Steelers will win their division and make it to the AFC championship game.. Depending on health, as health is HUGE, I can't predict more than that.. And I have some questions regarding their defense, but I think they can pull it together.

Fair enough ?


That is more than fair. I see us taking our division an making the playoffs and depending on O-line health, how far we go from there. The D isn't a concern of mine at all this season unless Aaron Smith goes down again. Our D will be stronger than last year due to the subtraction of Haggans plus the addition Woodley and Timmons fulltime (Timmons only until Foote is back but I predict him starting full time by week 6) IT's going to be fast. I think even you will be impressed. Im' not sold on the O-line though. Ben was on his back 47 times last season. Luckily he is fairly durable and hard to take down. Half were his issue and the rest split between piss poor O-line play and bad route running by the WR's.

I'm excited to see your boy Long in action. Speaking of Beast. Henne must have pee'd a little when he realized that he'd be blocking for him in the Pro's too. Very nice. I'd be thrilled if anyone can make your division more of a contest. Patriots running away with it every year is sad considering some of the talent over there. Good luck! I'd love to see the "kings" fall.

LeafNation
08-29-2008, 04:48 PM
That is more than fair. I see us taking our division an making the playoffs and depending on O-line health, how far we go from there. The D isn't a concern of mine at all this season unless Aaron Smith goes down again. Our D will be stronger than last year due to the subtraction of Haggans plus the addition Woodley and Timmons fulltime (Timmons only until Foote is back but I predict him starting full time by week 6) IT's going to be fast. I think even you will be impressed. Im' not sold on the O-line though. Ben was on his back 47 times last season. Luckily he is fairly durable and hard to take down. Half were his issue and the rest split between piss poor O-line play and bad route running by the WR's.

Steelers will be fine.. Totally fine.. The only thing that could hold them back is getting the injury bug.. I KNOW ALL ABOUT how injuries can totally decimate a team. For christs sakes right at the beginning of the season last year we had devastating injuries at key positions right out of the gate.. And it was a downward spiral of injuries all through the season. By the end of the season we were down to our 4th running back, 4th DT, 5th G, 4th LB , 4th corner, and 6th safety starting (as just a few examples).. lol, it was pathetic.. Thank god Parcells instituted a rigorous offseason training program this year to limit injuries.

If the Steelers are rolling on all cylinders, and healthy through the season, they should be just fine imo.


I'm excited to see your boy Long in action. Speaking of Beast. Henne must have pee'd a little when he realized that he'd be blocking for him in the Pro's too. Very nice. I'd be thrilled if anyone can make your division more of a contest. Patriots running away with it every year is sad considering some of the talent over there. Good luck! I'd love to see the "kings" fall.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/pro--sports/picks1and2.jpg
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/pro--sports/00henne.jpg

Yup, we finally got our future young QB after Marino.. You have no idea how painful it was to watch the last decade of crappy QB's after watching the brilliance of Marino for 17 years.. Or maybe you do with Mark Malone, Tommy Maddox and Kordell Stewart in Pitt for all those years, heh. :thumbsup(22):

blkngldbabe
08-29-2008, 05:41 PM
Ewww.... Maddox...Don't forget Brister. Stewart could have been decent if he actually watched some game film and was a little more studious at his position. Sadly it wasn't to be. Such is life. I hope Henne is all you expect of him and turns that team around with some help from his friends.

LeafNation
08-29-2008, 05:47 PM
Gholston's performance thus far has been expected by many of us.........and all for reasons you'd pointed out.

He was a project pick for us........and someone we hope can bring intense preassure from the outside, and a hybrid backer for us, in the mold of a Richard Seymour.

That said though, he's got a long ways to go to learn the in's and out's of the pro game, and more specifically our 3-4 system and what it's going to take for him to be effective in it.

This season, all we're expecting from him, is to be a situational backer this year, and bring a very strong rush pressence, when we need it.......if he can do that, while picking up the finer points of the game we need him to, and make solid steps towards being a well rounded player down the road. We'll be happy.

Gholston seems to be struggling against scrubs-

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/jets/2008/08/28/2008-08-28_vernon_gholston_no_1_disappointment_for_-2.html

While you guys picked him as a "project" player, I am against picking a project in the top 10 of the draft.. It turns out being a bad idea more often than not... I always believed that when you pick top 10 in the draft, the player better be as sure a thing as possible-- An unquestionable difference maker. Especially in the NFL draft.

LeafNation
08-29-2008, 08:26 PM
I just found this write up on predicting records.. It's quite interesting.. While it's a trend follower, and it's certainly not perfect, I thought it was a good read-

http://www.footballsfuture.com/nfl/2008/predicting.html

http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=244067

leafman101
08-29-2008, 08:45 PM
Ghoulston wasn't a "project pick." He was an elite college pass rusher, who was in an unquestionable group of the top 6 prospects in this draft.

He was never, however, project to be a pro bowler as a rookie.

You put too much stock into the exhibition.

blkngldbabe
08-29-2008, 08:52 PM
Interesting process... I've always been a believer in that line of thinking. ie The Jets last season. They had NUMEROUS close losses (4) and I never thought they were nearly as bad as they looked. (yes, even before we lost to them LOL!)

LeafNation
08-29-2008, 09:05 PM
Ghoulston wasn't a "project pick." He was an elite college pass rusher, who was in an unquestionable group of the top 6 prospects in this draft.

He was never, however, project to be a pro bowler as a rookie.

You put too much stock into the exhibition.

Before the draft I thought he had the highest bust rate of any of the top 10.. I can PM you my quote on that in a football thread before the draft, so I am not just trying to slam on a Jets top pick..

The thing with Gholston, to me when watching his film, is that he looks too stiff.. Average lateral movement which is not good for a linebacker.... He only has one real pass rushing move, and in the NFL when you have much better athletes you better have some kind of assortment.

Another thing that was a red flag to me was he only had like 36 tackles or so in his last season of college football.. That's terrible.. Look at other DE's who were drafted and see some of them have as high as 60 and 70 tackles..

To me, Gholston just seems like those workout warriors you see with ripping muscle but don't project well to the NFL.. People fell in love with his measurables and his one move in college.. Not as a complete football player

Moving a player to a whole new position he hasn't played in college is indeed a "project".. Now, the guy could come on and be a real player, anything can happen.. But I just didn't like him at the draft being selected there.

LeafNation
08-29-2008, 09:28 PM
By the way, it's not like the Jets don't have a bad history at the draft table-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZxNeFLuY98

Best NFL video on youtube. lol. Gotta love the quote by the fan on his reasons for missing Marino.. :lol

LeafNation
08-29-2008, 09:46 PM
Interesting process... I've always been a believer in that line of thinking. ie The Jets last season. They had NUMEROUS close losses (4) and I never thought they were nearly as bad as they looked. (yes, even before we lost to them LOL!)

That article also shines a nice light on the Steelers.. I think they are better than the 10-6 team they showed last season.. Miami also lost 6 games by 3 points or less last season (despite being ravaged by injuries, with the worst run defense in the NFL, shoddy QB play, and subpar O-line play)

LeafNation
08-29-2008, 09:55 PM
I'd be thrilled if anyone can make your division more of a contest. Patriots running away with it every year is sad considering some of the talent over there. Good luck! I'd love to see the "kings" fall.

There has been a good history of super bowl losers having lousy follow-up seasons.. Of the previous 10 Super Bowl losers, seven didn't even make the playoffs the next year.

I think New England's O-line is average at best.. When we beat em 21-0 a couple of years ago we just tore apart that O-line of theirs.. The Giants did the same thing in the super bowl.. I think a lot of teams will take what the Giants did attacking New England's O-line.

And their defense is getting old.. When a unit gets old it happens quickly.. Look at Miami's defense last season.. From the 4th best defense in the NFL two years ago, to the worst run defense in the NFL last year (32nd).. That's because they got old and slow, rather QUICKLY.

They also lost their best corner in Asante Samuel to the Eagles with no one to replace him. They don't have him to shutdown half of the field anymore.

There are some chinks in the armor there.

Call me crazy, but I predict a down year for the Patriots.

MyNameIsJonas
08-30-2008, 12:27 AM
how abut chadjohnon legally changing his name to ocho cinco

LeafNation
08-30-2008, 05:36 AM
I hope Henne is all you expect of him and turns that team around with some help from his friends.

The coaches absolutely love him- as in "tough love"

http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/football/miami-dolphins/story/661348.html

Now some people may take that a different way. The truth is, if a coach like Sparano doesn't talk to a young player, that player better be worried.. If he yells at you constantly, that means he likes you as he sees a ton of potential in you (especially for a QB-- Sparano hasn't yelled at Beck at all and he is 3rd string)..

Sparano and Parcells are cut of the same cloth. Very similar personalities. Remember when Parcells called Terry Glenn "she" in New England. That comment got a lot of publicity. Well, in time it proved that Parcells really liked the guy despite that remark. After all, Parcells brought Terry Glenn to Dallas many years later.

LeafNation
08-30-2008, 07:43 PM
Jaguars seem to be getting in a lot of trouble lately.

http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/breaking-news/story/665821.html


Veteran Jacksonville Jaguars running back Fred Taylor was arrested outside of a Miami Beach nightclub early Sunday morning and charged with disorderly conduct.

And BlkNGold, I heard that 2 of your offensive linemen are on the trade block. Max Starks and Essex.

Big night tonight with all the cuts to trim rosters down to 53. There is a first time special tonight on NFL network covering all the transactions-

http://blog.mlive.com/twominutedrill/2008/08/nfl_network_turns_cut_day_into.html

I am watching the waiver wire, and quite a few good players are getting released. This is a guy who was released that I would like on my team as a nickel corner. Following USF he was damn good in college.

http://nfldraftwatch.wordpress.com/2008/01/26/sleeper-watch-trae-williams/

leafman101
08-30-2008, 07:56 PM
Before the draft I thought he had the highest bust rate of any of the top 10.. I can PM you my quote on that in a football thread before the draft, so I am not just trying to slam on a Jets top pick..

The thing with Gholston, to me when watching his film, is that he looks too stiff.. Average lateral movement which is not good for a linebacker.... He only has one real pass rushing move, and in the NFL when you have much better athletes you better have some kind of assortment.

Another thing that was a red flag to me was he only had like 36 tackles or so in his last season of college football.. That's terrible.. Look at other DE's who were drafted and see some of them have as high as 60 and 70 tackles..

To me, Gholston just seems like those workout warriors you see with ripping muscle but don't project well to the NFL.. People fell in love with his measurables and his one move in college.. Not as a complete football player

Moving a player to a whole new position he hasn't played in college is indeed a "project".. Now, the guy could come on and be a real player, anything can happen.. But I just didn't like him at the draft being selected there.

See thats the most common misconception about Gholston. Because he did well at the combine, all of a sudden he is a workout warrior with only measurabes.

In reality we are talking about a guy who in the last two years had 22.5 sacks. He was also the only guy to beat your boy Long for a sack this year.

Before the combine he was already in the "group of 6."

Forget about tackles, and stopping the run. Maybe he will develop an "all around game," but thats not what he does. He's a premier pass rusher, thats why he was drafted, and thats what will be expected of him.

LeafNation
08-30-2008, 08:04 PM
That's not a misconception about him at all.. It is shared by Jets fans as he has stunk up the field thus far against 2nd and 3rd teamers- ( and that isn't just preseason games, but the training camp practice report blogs say the same thing about him)

http://forums.theganggreen.com/showthread.php?t=35073

The fact that you bring up the combine just cements what I said about him being merely a "workout warrior" and not translating well to the NFL.. There have been TONS of players look like superstars in shorts at the combine but stunk it up at the NFL level.

He was a project pick because he is playing a new position at OLB in a 3-4 defense. He is playing a totally different defense and a new position.

There is no misconception that he had a very low tackle number in college for a DE going in the 1st round, and that he only has one real move to rush the passer.. NFL tackles will eat that move up.

Take a look at other LB's who were drafted early in 2007 and see how they performed in their first year.. Paul Posluszny made a difference (before getting injured).. Patrick Willis made a difference and was defensive rookie of the year.. Your boy David Harris MADE A DIFFERENCE as a rookie.

When you pick in the top 10, especially for a LB, he better be a difference maker right off the bat.. These aren't 17 and 18 year old kids being drafted like in the NHL.. NFL draftees are already young men.

It's perfectly fine to wait for a CB, WR, or QB to develop as they take more time.. But if you are drafting someone THAT high in the draft who is either a RB, an offensive lineman, or someone in the front 7, they are expected to produce RIGHT away and be good ( and start).. Not getting beat routinely by 2nd and 3rd team scrubs .

leafman101
08-30-2008, 08:24 PM
You put way too much stock into the exhibition. Chad Henne hasn't even take an NFL snap yet (exhibition doesn't count), and he is the answer to all the Dolphins problems.

Talk to me again in week 17. If Gholston is lost then, they maybe you have to start to worry. Before he even plays his first NFL game? Nah.

And the missconception is that he is JUST a workout warrior. He produced in college. He was an elite defensive player, on an elite defense.

He wasn't a guy who was ok in college, then rocketed up the board on the strength of his combine performance

And as far as DE not taking time to develop...Gains Adams has 6 sacks last year, Jamal Anderson had none.

Number 1 pick Mario Williams had 4 sacks as a rookie and 14 last year. You have to go back to Terell Suggs in 2003 to find the last DE to have a great rookie year. You are just wrong.

You are comparing him to coverage and run guys, not pass rushers. Its an irrelevant comparison.

LeafNation
08-30-2008, 08:46 PM
You put way too much stock into the exhibition. Chad Henne hasn't even take an NFL snap yet (exhibition doesn't count), and he is the answer to all the Dolphins problems.

so let me get this straight, you are comparing the development time it usually takes a QB, 3 years, compared to a lineman or a linebacker ?


Talk to me again in week 17. If Gholston is lost then, they maybe you have to start to worry. Before he even plays his first NFL game? Nah.

If the guy looked just average out there against starters, it would be one thing.. But he has been just horrible in every way.


And the missconception is that he is JUST a workout warrior. He produced in college. He was an elite defensive player, on an elite defense.

He was not near being a complete player though.. And when you pick at #6, the smart thing to do is get a more complete player.. Gholston is just a one trick pony, he always has been.. And even then, he only has one move.


He wasn't a guy who was ok in college, then rocketed up the board on the strength of his combine performance

Right. He was a guy that was tremendously over hyped. Like many before him who eventually did little in the NFL.


And as far as DE not taking time to develop...Gains Adams has 6 sacks last year, Jamal Anderson had none.

Number 1 pick Mario Williams had 4 sacks as a rookie and 14 last year. You have to go back to Terell Suggs in 2003 to find the last DE to have a great rookie year. You are just wrong.

You are comparing him to coverage and run guys, not pass rushers. Its an irrelevant comparison.

Except for the fact that most of those players started. At the draft last year I thought Jamaal Anderson was another overrated draftee who won't be much in the NFL.

And since when are sacks the end all be all? My goodness, hurries and pressures causes QB's to make mistakes.. Loss of down, INT , penalty calls like intentional grounding etc , negative offensive plays occur etc etc. And those guys showed that (with the exception of anderson)..

With that said, anything can happen, like I said before. But I thought he was a reach pick at the time because he is so far away from a complete football player. He's a project type of player.

When you draft players that high in the draft, they should be more complete. Gholston just has bad form on run plays and was below average against the run ( hence his low tackle numbers). Gholston was very weak on the backside contain.. Not to mention only one move.. And he certainly doesn't seem like the smartest cookie in the jar.

With that said, good luck to him. he may pan out yet. I just didn't like where he was drafted-- although I liked the fact that the Jets picked him because there were better players on the draft board.

leafman101
08-30-2008, 08:59 PM
so let me get this straight, you are comparing the development time it usually takes a QB, 3 years, compared to a lineman of a linebacker ?


No. I am saying you put too much stalk into the preseason.



If the guy looked just average out there against starters, it would be one thing.. But he has been just horrible in every way.

Great. He is still a rookie, and he still hasn't played one official defensive snap yet, never mind a full season.




He was not near being a complete player though.. And when you pick at #6, the smart thing to do is get a more complete player.. Gholston is just a one trick pony, he always has been.. And even then, he only has one move.

Heh. That one trick, just happened to be shown by the Giants as one of the most important tricks around. Especially for stopping Tom Brady. Like Shawn Merriman, and Demarcus Ware are great all around players.

No. They get to the QB. Thats what they are paid to do, and that is one of the most valued commodities in the NFL.



Right. He was a guy that was tremendously over hyped. Like many before him who eventually did little in the NFL.

No. He was a guy who was one of the best pass rushers in college football the last two years. You're boy couldn't even handle him.



Except for the fact that most of those players started. At the draft last year I thought Jamaal Anderson was another overrated draftee who won't be much in the NFL.

So you are already stating that Gholston won't start at all this season. Despite the fact that not even a snap has been taken?

How long exactly do you expect Bryan Thomas to hold him off?



With that said, anything can happen, like I said before. But I thought he was a reach pick at the time because he is so far away from a complete football player. He's a project type of player.

Well considering he was a consensus top 6 pick, its pretty hard to hall picking him at 6 a reach.



When you draft players that high in the draft, they should be more complete. Gholston just has bad form on run plays and was below average against the run ( hence his low tackle numbers). Gholston was very weak on the backside contain.. Not to mention only one move.. And he certainly doesn't seem like the smartest cookie in the jar.

He was drafted as a pass rusher. Thats where his success will be measured. If he is a guy who can get 10 sacks a year, and only plays passing downs, well thats still one hell of a player.



With that said, good luck to him. he may pan out yet. I just didn't like where he was drafted-- although I liked that the Jets picked him because there were better players on the draft board.

There were no better players on the board. Gholston was the consensus number 1 on the board at the time. Maybe guys after him will be better, but so what, lots of guys from this draft will be better than Jake Thomas too.

blkngldbabe
08-30-2008, 09:05 PM
To be fair (even though I haven`t watched Gholstons performances this preseason) people were calling for Timmons to be a bust last year because as a first rounder and a little know player who had only started one year in college he barely got in the nickel packages. People were demanding that if he was worth the first round tag that he should be playing. He was injured etc and didnt`really contribute much at all. THIS year on the other hand he looks to be a beast. SOmetimes it takes time. Not saying this is the case with Gholston as I DID read things about him being take too high for his worth right after the draft, but sometimes you can never tell.

leafman101
08-30-2008, 09:08 PM
To be fair (even though I haven`t watched Gholstons performances this preseason) people were calling for Timmons to be a bust last year because as a first rounder and a little know player who had only started one year in college he barely got in the nickel packages. People were demanding that if he was worth the first round tag that he should be playing. He was injured etc and didnt`really contribute much at all. THIS year on the other hand he looks to be a beast. SOmetimes it takes time. Not saying this is the case with Gholston as I DID read things about him being take too high for his worth right after the draft, but sometimes you can never tell.

But thats the thing Gholston wasn't a one year starter, nobody in college.

He was one of the best pass rushers, on one of the best defenses in college. This is my whole point about the misrepresentation. His stock didn't soar from his workout.

LeafNation
08-30-2008, 09:09 PM
So you are already stating that Gholston won't start at all this season. Despite the fact that not even a snap has been taken?

Like I said over and over again, anything is possible.. He "may" pan out. But I just don't like his game.. You were better off with a more complete DE if that is the route you wanted to take-

http://boards.buffalobills.com/showthread.php?t=41026


Well considering he was a consensus top 6 pick, its pretty hard to hall picking him at 6 a reach.

Consensus Shmensus, big deal. There have been a plethora of players with a high consensus that turned out to be just workout warriors. And to me, Gholston looks just like one of them..

Again, I said this BEFORE the draft. BEFORE the Jets even picked him. I can send you a link with my opinion on him before the draft..So this isn't anything about slamming a Jets player (in case you are thinking that) ;)


He was drafted as a pass rusher. Thats where his success will be measured. If he is a guy who can get 10 sacks a year, and only plays passing downs, well thats still one hell of a player.

So let's see, you drafted a guy in the top 6 who will only be a "situational player" ? Not even an every-down player? Are you serious ?

And even then, the guy only had one move. Are you kidding? Do you know how easy it is for NFL OT's to mitigate one move a pass rusher has ?



lots of guys from this draft will be better than Jake Thomas too

But at least Jake Long will be an "every-down" player and we will get our money's worth as he will be on the field for every snap ;)

But finally, and again, we'll see what happens with Gholston.. I certainly wouldn't have picked him in the top 20, nevermind top 6

leafman101
08-30-2008, 09:17 PM
Like I said over and over again, anything is possible.. He "may" pan out. But I just don't like his game.. You were better off with a more complete DE if that is the route you wanted to take-

http://boards.buffalobills.com/showthread.php?t=41026


But thats not what the Jets wanted. The needed a pass rush from the OLB, as they play a 3-4, so a hyrbid was EXACTLY what they needed.



Consensus Shmensus, big deal. There have been a plethora of players with a high consensus that turned out to be just workout warriors. And to me, Gholston looks just like one of them..

Again, I said this BEFORE the draft. BEFORE the Jets even picked him. I can send you a link with my opinion on him before the draft..So this isn't anything about slamming a Jets player


I'm not questioning your opinion, I'm question you merging your opinion with the general consensus. Even though you may not like Gholston, its not a reach to pick a guy ranked in the top 6 of almost every draft board, in the top 6.



So let's see, you drafted a guy in the top 6 who will only be a "situational player" ? Not even an every-down player? Are you serious ?

For now.



And even then, the guy only had one move. Are you kidding? Do you know how easy it is for NFL OT's to mitigate one move a pass rusher has ?

Ok he has one move. He is also big, and fast, and doesn't need any moves to blow by a lot of OT's in this league. Thats why I guy with this kind of skill is worth a high pick.




But at least Jake Long will be an "every-down" player and we will get our money's worth as he will be on the field for every snap ;)

Well you are also paying him $10 million more in guaranteed money, and almost $20 mill more total.

I mean you are talking $57.5 mill for a guy who a lot of people think is a RT.

There are questions about both teams picks this year.

LeafNation
08-30-2008, 09:25 PM
Ok he has one move. He is also big, and fast, and doesn't need any moves to blow by a lot of OT's in this league. Thats why I guy with this kind of skill is worth a high pick.

He looks way too stiff laterally when you actually watched his college games. It's amazing how invisible that guy was on the field when he wasn't making a sack..

I compare it to a guy who's a 25 goal scorer who you don't notice on the ice unless he's scoring a goal.. That's how Gholston was. If he wasn't getting a sack, he was getting run over and missing plays left and right. Which was a HIGH percentage of the time. His great lack of football sense and stiffness was just too overwhelming to warrant top 10 pick IMO.

Sure, the guy has great straight ahead speed, but in the NFL, that's not always how you rush the passer most of the time.. He never showed to be nearly as nimble as Merriman or Ware in college ( since you mentioned those two earlier).



Well you are also paying him $10 million more in guaranteed money, and almost $20 mill more total.

Well, my opinion is that Gholston will bust.. It was my opinion before the draft. I would much rather pay Long #1 money than pay a little less for a bust.

But again, ANYTHING can happen and I may eventually be wrong about him. We'll see as time goes on.

Montana
08-30-2008, 09:27 PM
Like I said over and over again, anything is possible.. He "may" pan out. But I just don't like his game.. You were better off with a more complete DE if that is the route you wanted to take-

A straight DE, didn't fill a need for us........and if your arguement is that we reached for Gholston at 6 (although he was the concensus pick there, and the Patriots were praying he'd fall to them)....yet we should have taken Phillip Merling, who lasted until the 2nd and was passed on by virtually everyone at least once.

Come on now.






Consensus Shmensus, big deal. There have been a plethora of players with a high consensus that turned out to be just workout warriors. And to me, Gholston looks just like one of them..


Work out Warrior, is a term used mainly for players who shoot up draft boards solely based on huge combines.........that wasn't the case with Gholston, since he was considered a top ten pick, well before the combine.

That's what leafan01 is trying to get accross to you.





So let's see, you drafted a guy in the top 6 who will only be a "situational player" ? Not even an every-down player? Are you serious ?

Who will only be a "situational player" in his ROOKIE season......plenty of players come into the league and don't play a down their first year....(1st overall Carson Palmer?).....

We knew when we drafted him, that we'd be molding him for a position he didn't play in college........the OLB/DE hybrid......he was never going to be expected to come in and make that transition immediately........nor would anyone else.




And even then, the guy only had one move. Are you kidding? Do you know how easy it is for NFL OT's to mitigate one move a pass rusher has ?

......your claim that he only has "1 move" couldn't be more factually inaccurate......it appears to be something garnered from watching highlight video's or something.......I've yet to see any scouts, coaches, and analysts say anything of this nature.

Nor did I ever see that in the numerous OSU games I watched last year.





But at least Jake Long will be an "every-down" player and we will get our money's worth as he will be on the field for every snap ;)

There's really no comparison to be made between a 1st overall O-lineman, and a player taken 6th overall, who's adjusting to a new position........it's a ridiculous comparison.





But finally, and again, we'll see what happens with Gholston.. I certainly wouldn't have picked him in the top 20, nevermind top 6

Give me 5 players that you'd have taken over Gholston at 6, if you were the Jets.

Montana
08-30-2008, 09:35 PM
I compare it to a guy who's a 25 goal scorer who you don't notice on the ice unless he's scoring a goal.. That's how Gholston was. If he wasn't getting a sack, he was getting run over and missing plays left and right. Which was a HIGH percentage of the time. His great lack of football sense and stiffness was just too overwhelming to warrant top 10 pick IMO.

Except his 14 sacks isn't anything like a "25 goal scorer"........he broke the Ohio State record for both sacks in a season, and sacks in a single game.


And Ghoslton showed some inconsistency at times last year.......but never......ever.....was he being "run over"

LeafNation
08-30-2008, 10:22 PM
A straight DE, didn't fill a need for us........and if your arguement is that we reached for Gholston at 6 (although he was the concensus pick there, and the Patriots were praying he'd fall to them)....yet we should have taken Phillip Merling, who lasted until the 2nd and was passed on by virtually everyone at least once.

Come on now.

Actually Merling was looked upon to be drafted in the top 15.. He was the first pick in the 2nd round.. The reason he fell is because he had a sports hernia injury and teams got scared of that and that alone. It turned out his hernia has been totally healed and he has shown a hell of a lot more than Gholston has ( and Merling has been at OLB as well lately and looking good there).


Work out Warrior, is a term used mainly for players who shoot up draft boards solely based on huge combines.........that wasn't the case with Gholston, since he was considered a top ten pick, well before the combine.

Christ, you jets fans are funny.. I know you've had a bad history of drafting and that it scares the crap out of you that another one will not pan out, but come on.. Gholston is as stiff as a hammer (ie- work out warrior).

Gholston's hips just stink.. He has subpar hip movement. And when you play OLB, and want to be a "complete" OLB, you BETTER have fluid hips.. Lawrence taylor, Demarcus Ware, Merriman, Derrick Thomas etc etc and all the top pass rushers (who were also complete linebackers) had great FLUID hips. Gholston doesn't have them, Period.


We knew when we drafted him, that we'd be molding him for a position he didn't play in college........the OLB/DE hybrid......he was never going to be expected to come in and make that transition immediately........nor would anyone else.

hence, he's a project player. At least you admitted that.


Give me 5 players that you'd have taken over Gholston at 6, if you were the Jets.

I would take more than 5 over him. I will name them tomorrow as I am heading out for the evening.



Except his 14 sacks isn't anything like a "25 goal scorer"........he broke the Ohio State record for both sacks in a season, and sacks in a single game.

In the NFL he won't get those numbers imo.. As far as college is concerned, there has been plenty of players who have had a lot of sacks in college and it didn't translate in the NFL.


And Ghoslton showed some inconsistency at times last year.......but never......ever.....was he being "run over"

That is flat out not true. I have seen the guy get pushed down the field numerous times. Too much for my liking. Luckily he had good teammates who made some real tackles because Gholston was pushed out of the play a lot of the time (or he didn't have the ability to react on some other plays)

LeafNation
08-30-2008, 10:39 PM
before I head out for the evening, this was just reported on ESPN-

Ricky Williams has just signed a 1 year extension with the dolphins that takes him until the end of the 2009 season. This upcoming year was his last year of his contract before the extension.

JaysCyYoung
08-30-2008, 10:57 PM
How is Montreal tonight, LN?

Montana
08-31-2008, 12:08 AM
Actually Merling was looked upon to be drafted in the top 15.. He was the first pick in the 2nd round.. The reason he fell is because he had a sports hernia injury and teams got scared of that and that alone. It turned out his hernia has been totally healed and he has shown a hell of a lot more than Gholston has ( and Merling has been at OLB as well lately and looking good there).


I'm a bit of a draft junkie, and don't recall ever seeing Merling considered a top 15 pick.



Christ, you jets fans are funny.. I know you've had a bad history of drafting and that it scares the crap out of you that another one will not pan out, but come on.. Gholston is as stiff as a hammer (ie- work out warrior).

Quite possibly the worst draft history in the entire NFL, to be honest...........but under Tannenbaum we've been quite successful....he's been able to find starters and overall great value all throughout the draft for us......

Darrelle Revis (#1 CB)
D'Brickashaw Ferguson (starting LT)
Nick Mangold (starting C)
David Harris (starting ILB)
Eric Smith (starting FS)
Leon Washington (backup RB)
Brad Smith (#3 WR)
Dwight Lowery (backup CB)
Dustin Keller (backup TE for now.....will see plenty of time on the field though)
Marcus Henry (could be a mini-Colston in a few years)


Gholston's hips just stink.. He has subpar hip movement. And when you play OLB, and want to be a "complete" OLB, you BETTER have fluid hips.. Lawrence taylor, Demarcus Ware, Merriman, Derrick Thomas etc etc and all the top pass rushers (who were also complete linebackers) had great FLUID hips. Gholston doesn't have them, Period.

No in between for him eh?..........either all-time great, or bust.....:sarcasm

Gholston was drafted for his explosiveness, his incredible stregth, and his ability to get into the backfield and disrupt a QB's rhythm.........but the fact remains, in our 3-4 scheme, he's going to be responsible for alot more than simply pass rushing. And drafting him, we all knew he wasn't going to be able to completely absorb everything that's needed to be a OLB in a 3-4.

The plan is, and always has been, to bring him along slowly initially using him mainly in passing situations, and letting him run lose on the QB.

His learning curve has been hindered by the fact he wasn't able to report until after the semester at Ohio was over, and he signed relatively late.




hence, he's a project player. At least you admitted that.

I think I'm actually the one that brought it up....::thumbsup(22):




I would take more than 5 over him. I will name them tomorrow as I am heading out for the evening.

I look forward to seeing it.



In the NFL he won't get those numbers imo..

Considering only 4 players put up numbers like that in the NFL last year........I don't suspect he will.


As far as college is concerned, there has been plenty of players who have had a lot of sacks in college and it didn't translate in the NFL.

Not too many do it at a defensive power house like OSU.....and turn into busts.



That is flat out not true. I have seen the guy get pushed down the field numerous times. Too much for my liking. Luckily he had good teammates who made some real tackles because Gholston was pushed out of the play a lot of the time (or he didn't have the ability to react on some other plays)

In the games I watched I never witnessed it at all........if you've got actual games/plays in which you remember seeing that happen, I'd be more than willing to take a look, though.

I saw him take plenty of plays off........and not give 100% on each and every down......but I never remember seeing him getting "run over"

Montana
08-31-2008, 03:21 AM
To try to answer your last question there Montana. And I will give my best effort to give you an honest opinion..... I will say this, being a Miami fan and the Dolphins taking the same free agency route in previous years that you just took- And please don't try to take this personally since we are fans of opposing teams ( and opposing "RIVAL" teams).

Heh......know exactly what you're talking about. My two best friends are Patriots fans......can be tough sometimes to be completely un-biased.



The free agent route rarely works in the NFL IMO.. The dolphins have tried to plug holes via the free agent route this decade, and it just doesn't work.. I am talking from experience here, and being a fan of a team that tried to use the free agency route to try to "buy" a Superbowl..

It does rarely work.......in fact in rarely works in most sports. That said, sometimes it does work, and I find it's best to grade each move on it's individual merit's as opposed to believing it won't work, simply because similar moves didn't work for others in the past.




Dave Wannstedt in Miami this decade, paid a lot to bring in free agents. And it didn't work ( it backfired). He also brought in veterans via the trade route giving up valuable 2nd round picks in the process ( which reminds me of your Kris Jenkins move giving up picks to Carolina to acquire him this summer).

He only cost us a 3rd and 5th round pick.......which is peanuts, compared to the kind of impact he could have on the entire defense.

As you know, NT is quite possibly the most important piece of the puzzle to a 3-4 defense.......and something we desperately needed. With no one worth going after in FA, we landed one of the best, for a few mid rounders.

Regardless of how it works out, (and his durability is a concern)....I think it's a move we had to make, no matter what.



I thought you GREATLY overpaid for Calvin Pace in free agency, the guy only had ONE good year last year, and it seems like he played for a contract. And you paid him $40+ million with a $20+ million signing bonus. That's NUTS IMO.. That is a potential salary cap killer in the future, as well as your other moves smothering your cap flexibility in future years.


We overpaid a little......but it's not that much more than Parcells and crew tried to lure him in with, which was rumored to be 36 million over 6 years, and 15-17 million guaranteed.

Thing is.......and this goes hand in hand with the Gholston pick......is that our pass rush was one of the worst in the league last year, and was something that HAD to be addressed.

As for the cap issues......Mike Tannenbaum is widely considered the best capologist in the NFL, and has been in charge of our cap for years now, and we've never had any cap problems.......nor do I expect us to, under his tenure.


Worth noting as well......that Pace has been one of our best players in camp, and preseason, and already exceeding some people's expectations.




Keep in mind, the Colts won the super bowl with all 22 starters drafted by the team, and 45 of the 48 players drafted by them. They didn't take the free agency route.

The Steelers, in their last superbowl victory, had 18 of their 22 starters drafted by them. The Patriots, 85% of their starting 22 in a recent super bowl were drafted by the team.. See a pattern here?

They're Superbowl winners...........we're coming off a 4-12 season, and just trying to make it back to the playoffs.



And if this is Favre's last season, which it likely is, you have a huge hole at the QB position to boot.

If we go 9-7 or better, my guess is he'll be back...........if we're terrible again this year....we'll likely be drafting high enough to go after our future starter.

Also, Brett Ratliff has shown some incredible poise early in his career........and Ainge has the potential to be a starter down the road as well.




As far as week 1 is concerned, the pressure is all on the Jets coming to Miami.. Miami has been VERY loose this preseason playing with tremendous emotion, emotion like a college football team has.. I see them really ready in week 1. They are just playing lights out enthusiastic football out there- on both sides of the ball.

I can't imagine the Jets coming out with anything but a ton of emotion, with Brett Favre at the helm, and knowing it will likely be the most watched game of week 1.



Now ANYTHING can happen in this game of football on any given Sunday.. If the NY Jets win that opener in Miami I will be surprised. Not shocked, but I will be surprised.. ANYTHING can happen. Nobody in the world thought the NY Giants would win the Super Bowl last year after the garbage start they had last season. NOBODY guessed that.. One advantage for the Jets is, after their first 3 games, you guys have an easy schedule. So that also has to be taken into account.

The keys for us, will be exploiting your secondary, which Favre should be able to do all day.......With Coles, Cotchery, Brad Smith and Dustin Keller, he's going to have tons of weapons at his disposal.

My concerns.........are how much of a running game we're going to be able to mount. As great as the O-Line has looked in pass protection this off-season, they've yet to show me the kind of push I expect from them......to which Thomas Jones 2.7 yards per carry this preseason, can attest.

I've also got some concerns in our defense..........they've yet to show me that they're really gelling, and I haven't seen the preasure up front that I was hoping for...........that said, if we can stop the run, I see us having a relatively easy day with the Fins offense as a whole.




Back to week 1.. Keep in mind that 3 years ago under Saban's first year in Miami , in Miami's home opener, Denver came to Miami in week 1 being being 10 point favorites.. Miami was BIG underdogs in their home opener in early September in that heat and humidity... Well, Miami won the game by about 20 points in a rout shocking everyone.. To a man, Bronco players said that they were TOTALLY worn out by the middle of the 3rd quarter in their post-game interviews.. You just DON'T UNDERSTAND how suffocating that heat is in Miami at that time of year. And remember, the Miami-Jets game on Sept 7th is at 1 o'clock when it's hottest. Just like that Denver game.

Although I agree completely that the weather can play a huge factor..........the fact a completely different Fins team, beat a completely different Jets team.....3 years ago........doesn't mean much to me, as far as this particular game goes.

But without question, if it's a smoldering hot day on the 7th........in can only be to your favor.



While the Jets have owned Miami in recent years, keep in mind that the schedule makers had the Jets playing in Miami later in the fall, in November and December when it's A LOT cooler.. And a few night games thrown in there making it even cooler down there.

Heat's a factor........it's not that big of a factor.

Let's not forget that last year during the first two months of the season, you guys were 0-4 at home, including a ass whoppin at the hands of the lowly Raiders.

Seriously.........would the game being played at 1 o'clock, really ahve prevented us from trouncing you 40-13 at Dolphin stadium last year?

:couch




I just think that the heat and humidity of early September is a huge advantage for Miami... I have followed every player interview on MiamiDolphins.com (in the aquavision box in there), and all the new players, from Jake Long on down stated how shocked they were practicing in that heat. Jake Long said that he was losing 7 to 8 pounds a day in practice in that heat ( and had to replenish himself every night by eating a lot). I just think that the heat at that time of year isn't something that you can get used to in one Sunday. It will be a tremendous advantage for Miami against the Jets in week 1 as Miami practices in that heat everyday.. Now if it rains, or if there is some anomaly in the weather patterns that day, it's a different story..

I conceed the heat can be a factor........I just don't see it being the kind of factor you seem to..........from your post, it almost appears like you're going to win the game from the heat alone....:lol





Regardless of all that, it should be a barnburner in Miami vs the Jets on opening day.. CBS has agreed to televise the game nationally. There are alot of superlatives involved in that game- with Parcells being an ex Jets coach, being a New Yorker himself, and now being the head honcho in Miami.. With the ex-Jet Chad Pennington being Miami's QB (and with him knowing your defense since he practiced against that Jets defense in camp this year etc), and with Pennington wanting revenge-- and his teammates playing hard for him to exact that revenge on the Jets. And of course the Favre saga. Plus it's a hell of a division rivalry.. It will be a war..

Without question........I think as fans, we have to consider ourselves lucky to play in a division with such great rivalries.......be it the Pats, the Fins or even the Bills......we have a great rivalry with all of them, and it makes for a lot of very interesting, heated games......


I haven't been this excited for a home opener in over a decade, I can't wait.:cheers2:

Honestly, I can't think of a time I was either.........no matter who wins, I think it's gonna be a special day of football no matter what.







Also, in getting into a discussion about the Jets-Phins game.......you didn't answer my original question about our O-Line.......hahaha.


Question LN.........as a Phins fan, what are your thoughts on the Jets O-Line as a whole, with the development of Ferguson and Mangold.....the additions of Faneca and Woody......(which gives us four former first round picks on the line). and Brandon Moore making strides last year......where would you rank this O-Line overall?

LeafNation
08-31-2008, 05:18 AM
It does rarely work.......in fact in rarely works in most sports.

That's all I was sayin'..


That said, sometimes it does work, and I find it's best to grade each move on it's individual merit's as opposed to believing it won't work, simply because similar moves didn't work for others in the past

However the odds are a lot higher.


He only cost us a 3rd and 5th round pick.......which is peanuts, compared to the kind of impact he could have on the entire defense.

Ya, and we said a 2nd round pick was peanuts for A.J Feeley since the Qb position is so important. We also said a 2nd round pick was peanuts for Culpepper who looked good at the time (also comng off injury like Jenkins) as he was leading the NFL in certain QB categories at the time.

we also said trading a 4th to move up one single spot in the draft was a good idea, when in fact we didn't have to..

Sure, they all look like good moves at the time. But the mistakes add up if you don't make it to the super bowl ( or the playoffs for that matter). And those picks are pure gold.


As you know, NT is quite possibly the most important piece of the puzzle to a 3-4 defense.......and something we desperately needed. With no one worth going after in FA, we landed one of the best, for a few mid rounders.

Just like we traded picks for guys who we thought would make a difference-- there's too many to mention.. Snider over there in Washington is notorious for trading picks for veterans ( he just paid us a 2nd and 6th for a 34 year old Jason Taylor ;)), and I am sure he thought it looked good at the outset.. We'll see what he thinks at the draft when his team didn't make the super bowl and he could use that VERY valuable 2nd round pick that could land him a very good player for 10 years.


Regardless of how it works out, (and his durability is a concern)....I think it's a move we had to make, no matter what.

Most of the time it looks good at the outset. Hence, at the outset.


We overpaid a little......but it's not that much more than Parcells and crew tried to lure him in with, which was rumored to be 36 million over 6 years, and 15-17 million guaranteed.

It's been well reported that Parcells had no interest in Pace. That all he wanted to do was drive the price up.


Thing is.......and this goes hand in hand with the Gholston pick......is that our pass rush was one of the worst in the league last year, and was something that HAD to be addressed.

While it had to be addressed, Gholston was the wrong move IMO. I think he will be a bust because of his hips. However I do like Pace as a player, even though he only had one good year.. Still overpaid though.


As for the cap issues......Mike Tannenbaum is widely considered the best capologist in the NFL, and has been in charge of our cap for years now, and we've never had any cap problems..

Until now. With your signings, you are inviting a nice rendezvous with "cap hell" in the near future if you don't make the super bowl and have a subpar season.. I mean, it's just like a downward spiral once you start (ask Snider). If you don't make it to the dance you will just spend the little money you will have left trying to get over the hump- and it will all be in vain as you just weren't good enough to begin with.


They're Superbowl winners...........we're coming off a 4-12 season, and just trying to make it back to the playoffs.

Yes, they were super bowl winners. And they became super bowl winners by building exclusively through the draft.. Not by $40 million signings like a 31 yr old Faneca, and $42 million signings like Calvin Pace etc etc.

IMO you don't spend to the cap limit and tie yourself for years when you're 4-12.. If you are going to tie yourself with big contracts to veterans, do it when your 10-6 (after successful drafts) and are looking to go over the hump..



Also, Brett Ratliff has shown some incredible poise early in his career........and Ainge has the potential to be a starter down the road as well.

I was hoping you would cut one of them so we can sign one as our 3rd QB and cut Beck.


I can't imagine the Jets coming out with anything but a ton of emotion, with Brett Favre at the helm, and knowing it will likely be the most watched game of week 1.

And Miami won't have a ton of emotion? They won't have a ton of emotion trying to bust their balls to win it for Pennington ? (as he has been a HUGE locker room influence already on the team).. And you don't think that Miami, after a terrible 1-15 season, won't be UP for this matchup trying to start a new era with Parcells and company at the helm ?

Let's face it, ALL the pressure is on the Jets with signing Favre and the other signings... Miami is in the best shape in the league by being $19 million under the cap, and we are doing it the right way, methodically through the draft.. ALL THE PRESSURE and expectations are on YOU.. Miami is loose. What have we got to lose ? We were 1-15 last year ! If you think Miami is going to lay down you're nuts ! :nono: . LOL


My concerns.........are how much of a running game we're going to be able to mount. As great as the O-Line has looked in pass protection this off-season, they've yet to show me the kind of push I expect from them......to which Thomas Jones 2.7 yards per carry this preseason, can attest.

Our run defense looks improved 100% . Now we just need to wait and see if it translates into the season.


I've also got some concerns in our defense..........they've yet to show me that they're really gelling, and I haven't seen the preasure up front that I was hoping for...........that said, if we can stop the run, I see us having a relatively easy day with the Fins offense as a whole.

That is a HUGE if with Miami's running game.. especially with a much improved O-line, and with Ricky and Ronnie playing 100%..


Heat's a factor........it's not that big of a factor.

Let's not forget that last year during the first two months of the season, you guys were 0-4 at home, including a ass whoppin at the hands of the lowly Raiders.

Let's not forget that Miami's coach last year had the dolphins out of shape. It was a "club med" training camp.. In the first game of the season at Washington, I saw something I have never seen with a Miami team-- they were actually huffing and puffing (winded) in the 3rd quarter.. It was surreal. As we are usually one of the most fit teams in the league.

Fast forward to this year--- Sparano has had a VERY physical training camp this year.. The few players who are still around from last year have emphatically stated how last year was a "club med" atmosphere in camp compared to this year.. I mean, last year the team only hit once a week in camp. This year is a HUGE difference, a totally different atmosphere. The team is in outstanding shape.


Seriously.........would the game being played at 1 o'clock, really ahve prevented us from trouncing you 40-13 at Dolphin stadium last year?

That's nice.. But keep in mind what time of year that game was played.. Early September is a WHOLE NEW ballgame compared to late fall. I lived there, the weather is hell in early september.

ie- The last 2 times the Jets came to Miami in early to mid September, Miami won by the scores of 30-3 and 52-14 ..... :thumbsup(22): .. Also keep in mind that it's been a dry cool summer in the northeast, so the south florida humidity will have even more of an effect.

For a 25 year stretch, Miami had the best September record in the NFL, for a reason.. Last year was an anomaly with the pathetic coaching staff we had.. And with the light training camp, a lot of players got injured very early in the season because they were out of shape.. It was a mess.. It's a totally different story this year.



I conceed the heat can be a factor........I just don't see it being the kind of factor you seem to..........from your post, it almost appears like you're going to win the game from the heat alone....:lol

Living in Miami beach for 17 years, I have seen too many opposing teams wilt in the heat to mention ( both pro and college). Especially in September. That humidity is sick.. You Better hope it rains. hehe.


Honestly, I can't think of a time I was either.........no matter who wins, I think it's gonna be a special day of football no matter what.

I agree. No matter what happens, the Fins and Jets look to be on the upswing in the division.. If the Jets win, I will be the first to congratulate the Jets in this thread.. Just make sure you do the same when/if Miami wins week 1 :sarcasm


Also, in getting into a discussion about the Jets-Phins game.......you didn't answer my original question about our O-Line.......hahaha.

I will need some time to see how they perform.. Offensive lines are hard to judge early because so much involves chemistry.. I didn't like the woody signing as he was nothing special in Detroit. And was injured ( I think he missed a whole season recently). And thought you paid too much for Faneca throwing him $40 million. But with that said, they have some good pieces to be a good line. It's all about chemistry.

I do think it is concerning that Mangold and D-Brick looked like garbage as soon as Pete Kendall left to Washington last year.. I mean, Vernon Carey and Samson Satele didn't look like garbage last year even though they had a garbage guard between them.. The problem was, the other 3 linemen looked like crap besides those 2. And those 3 linemen were replaced with Jake Long, Justin Smiley and Donald Thomas -- massive improvements as well, just like you think your line has improved.

As far as Gholston, I will get into that more tomorrow.. I will just say "Mike Mamula", who was drafted 7th overall - another DE/LB with similar measurables to Gholston, who was also highly touted before the combine, and looked like a freak during the combine, ended up a bust in the NFL. :smilewinkgrin: .. Hips Hips Hips are so vital for an outside linebacker in a 3-4.

LeafNation
08-31-2008, 06:15 AM
I'm a bit of a draft junkie, and don't recall ever seeing Merling considered a top 15 pick.

Hmm. You oughta follow it closer-

As stated earlier, Merling had a sports hernia surgery and couldn't workout for teams.. Thus dropping in the draft. If not for the surgery, he would have been picked anywhere in the earlier to middle portion of the 1st round.

Mike Mayock, who is the main draft analyst for NFL Network during their coverage on draft day, said that Merling was the best overall DE in the draft.. In fact, you can read it here ( also click that link in the first post there to see Merling ranked 13th with WalterFootball)

http://boards.buffalobills.com/showthread.php?t=41026

And right from a Miami Dolphins board BEFORE THE DRAFT, you can see that the Sporting News had Merling 11th overall in the draft-

http://www.finheaven.com/forums/f2/sportingnews-has-merling-as-11-player-in-draft-219368.html

And if you read down that thread further you can see that Pro Football Weekly had Merling going 11th as well

Yup. even Kiper said Merling could have gone in the early to middle portions of the 1st round. Without the injury, no doubt he was at least a early to mid 1st rounder-

http://www.independentmail.com/news/2008/apr/26/merling-fin/


ESPN draft guru Mel Kiper Jr. praised the pick on the network’s draft broadcast.
“I thought Merling was a guy who could have gone instead of (Southern California) defensive end Lawrence Jackson (who was picked No.28 overall by the Seattle Seahawks). He could have been a middle-to-early first-round selection.

and-

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ys-prospectsurgeries&prov=yhoo&type=lgns


Oregon running back Jonathan Stewart and Clemson defensive end Phillip Merling, considered virtual locks for the first round and possible top 15 selections, could see their respective stocks take a tumble with news that each has undergone surgery recently and may not be able to fully work out for teams before the April 26-27 NFL draft.

AthlonSports had Merling going as high as #13, even after the surgery-

http://www.athlonsports.com/pro-football/12986/2008-mock-draft/?action=view_player&pk=145



Merling is in the mix as a mid-to-late first-rounder who could hear his name called anywhere in between the Panthers at No. 13

and-

http://www.theredskinreport.com/2008/04/21/draft-profile-phillip-merling-de-clemson/



Regardless, Merling projects as a mid-first round pick.

Here he's ranked 15th overall-

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/647791/defensive_end_phillip_merling_where.html?cat=14



DE Phillip Merling- Clemson
6-4 281
40 yard dash time: 4.71
Overall prospect rank: #15
Defensive end rank: #3

Montana
08-31-2008, 06:44 AM
That's all I was sayin'..



However the odds are a lot higher.


No doubt......I still prefer to judge signings on their individual merits though.



Ya, and we said a 2nd round pick was peanuts for A.J Feeley since the Qb position is so important.

At the time, I think everyone thought a 2nd for A.J. Feeley was absurd......I can remember there being tons of discussions on how ridiculous that signing was.


We also said a 2nd round pick was peanuts for Culpepper who looked good at the time (also comng off injury like Jenkins) as he was leading the NFL in certain QB categories at the time.

Thank god you didn't go the Free Agent route that year......and sign Drew Brees.

:couch


we also said trading a 4th to move up one single spot in the draft was a good idea, when in fact we didn't have to..

Sure, they all look like good moves at the time. But the mistakes add up if you don't make it to the super bowl ( or the playoffs for that matter). And those picks are pure gold.

What you're missing about the Jenkins trade though.......is that we have NO ONE to fill quite possibly the most important roll in the 3-4........there were no NT's we were happy with in either the draft, or FA.....going after someone like Jenkins was the only real option.

The only option I liked anyway...........and for such an important piece of the puzzle.......a 3rd and a 5th, is nothing.

Again......even if it doesn't work out, it'll never be a trade we look back on and regret.......because it was necessary no matter what......




Just like we traded picks for guys who we thought would make a difference-- there's too many to mention.. Snider over there in Washington is notorious for trading picks for veterans ( he just paid us a 2nd and 6th for a 34 year old Jason Taylor ;)), and I am sure he thought it looked good at the outset.. We'll see what he thinks at the draft when his team didn't make the super bowl and he could use that VERY valuable 2nd round pick that could land him a very good player for 10 years.

a 2nd and a 6th was a steal for Taylor......but I'm not sure how this responded to the statement I'd made.





Most of the time it looks good at the outset. Hence, at the outset.

or this.........seemed to have had no relevance to what I'd said, at all.



It's been well reported that Parcells had no interest in Pace. That all he wanted to do was drive the price up.

I'd be interested to read about that..........considering Pace had a contract in hand from you guys.



While it had to be addressed, Gholston was the wrong move IMO. I think he will be a bust because of his hips. However I do like Pace as a player, even though he only had one good year.. Still overpaid though.

He very well could be......no doubt......I just don't know how else wouldn't have been a reach of sorts, given our teams needs.

Gholston had the most upside......a great pedigree......so we took him.


If Bill Bellicheck was trying to trade up to draft him........I've got confidence in at least waiting it out, and giving him at the benefit of the doubt, until he's played an NFL down.




Until now. With your signings, you are inviting a nice rendezvous with "cap hell" in the near future if you don't make the super bowl and have a subpar season.. I

Except we won't.......Tannenbaum is a master of the cap......

....question, how would us making the superbowl, or having a subpar season, have ANY effect on our cap?





IMO you don't spend to the cap limit and tie yourself for years when you're 4-12.. If you are going to tie yourself with big contracts to veterans, do it when your 10-6 (after successful drafts) and are looking to go over the hump..

We're not in any cap trouble.........nor will we be. Trust Me.






I was hoping you would cut one of them so we can sign one as our 3rd QB and cut Beck.

I think we'll likely be putting Ainge on the IR so we can keep them both. (and Clemons)



And Miami won't have a ton of emotion?

Never said that............simply said, I believed the Jets will be equally charged up.



Let's face it, ALL the pressure is on the Jets with signing Favre and the other signings... Miami is in the best shape in the league by being $19 million under the cap, and we are doing it the right way, methodically through the draft.. ALL THE PRESSURE and expectations are on YOU.. Miami is loose. What have we got to lose ? We were 1-15 last year ! If you think Miami is going to lay down you're nuts ! :nono: . LOL

I agree, there's no preassure on you guys..........it's one of the few bonuses of going 1-15.



Our run defense looks improved 100% . Now we just need to wait and see if it translates into the season.

I think it's tough to consider you D twice as good, considering you lost to stalwarts on the defensive side of the ball.

The Phins defense still has plenty of questions to answer.



That is a HUGE if with Miami's running game.. especially with a much improved O-line, and with Ricky and Ronnie playing 100%..

No doubt.........it was also one of our biggest weaknesses last year. How we do against the run, is definitely going to be a huge factor.





I agree. No matter what happens, the Fins and Jets look to be on the upswing in the division.. If the Jets win, I will be the first to congratulate the Jets in this thread.. Just make sure you do the same when/if Miami wins week 1 :sarcasm

For sure.........I'll be miserable, but I'll do it......:lol




I will need some time to see how they perform.. Offensive lines are hard to judge early because so much involves chemistry.. I didn't like the woody signing as he was nothing special in Detroit. And was injured ( I think he missed a whole season recently). And thought you paid too much for Faneca throwing him $40 million. But with that said, they have some good pieces to be a good line. It's all about chemistry.

Faneca signing I have NO worries about........Woody signing, I was pretty indifferent too.


I do think it is concerning that Mangold and D-Brick looked like garbage as soon as Pete Kendall left to Washington last year..

Kendall was a huge part of our line......he was also a mentor to both D-Brick and Mangold, so I'm not too surprised they tailled off after we traded him.

Another reason I loved the Faneca signing.........I expect him to help D-Brick and Mangold take it to the next level......They've both go pro-bowl skills, just a matter of them putting it all together........I think Alan could help them do that.




As far as Gholston, I will get into that more tomorrow.. I will just say "Mike Mamula", who was drafted 7th overall - another DE/LB with similar measurables to Gholston, who was also highly touted before the combine, and looked like a freak during the combine, ended up a bust in the NFL. :smilewinkgrin: .. Hips Hips Hips are so vital for an outside linebacker in a 3-4.

I gotta admit, after reading you take on him.......I went and watched some more game film on Vernon, and I have to admit you're right about the hip movement........and that very well could be an issue.........but I gotta still give him the benefit of the doubt, until I've at least seem him for 8 games at the top level.

I'd be right in line though with the rest of our Jets history.........Blair Thomas, Dwayne Robertson, Kyle Brady, Anthony Becht, Ken O'brien, and on and on and on.....

Montana
08-31-2008, 06:49 AM
Hmm. You oughta follow it closer-

As stated earlier, Merling had a sports hernia surgery and couldn't workout for teams.. Thus dropping in the draft. If not for the surgery, he would have been picked anywhere in the earlier to middle portion of the 1st round.

Nope, you're 100% correct..........even when I looked back at old mock drafts on draft countdown, I noticed they had him slotted in at 21st......as the 4th best DE on the board.

I stand corrected.........I don't think we should have taken him over Gholston though.

LeafNation
08-31-2008, 09:04 PM
Montana, this should make you feel a little better. I have been scouring some Jets boards and Faneca has looked very good. He has given the Jets O-line a 'mean streak".. Here's a video of Faneca coming over to help out D-Brick on Jason Taylor on a pass to Keller for a TD. (Taylor is #55 for Wash)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVkOTAgj0qk&eurl=http://jetsinsider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175304

On the replay later you can see it better.. Now, again, that is against an undersized Jason Taylor.. And I saw Taylor on his ass all year last season getting run over. But Faneca has planted a few others like that in preseason.

With that said, That Dustin Keller scares me. VERY fast for a TE and he has some amazing talent. I was hoping Miami would pick him at 32 but the Jets snagged him at 30.. Then again, we got Merling at 32 who was considered a top 15 pick before his surgery and I can't complain with how he's been a beast on the field.

About your Belichick comment.. He makes mistakes too.. He picked Chad Jackson #36 overall a couple of years ago. And Jackson was coming from a gimmick offense at the U of Florida (look at all the florida receivers who busted or didn't live up to expectations over the past 20 years). The guy only had <10 yards per catch in that gimmick offense, then he ran a good combine time and the hype started........

Well, today, Belichick cut the bust from his squad.. Chad Jackson is on the street if anyone wants him... BTW, Belichick said during that draft in 2006 that he thought Jackson was better than Santonio Holmes (who was drafted 11 spots earlier). heh

LeafNation
08-31-2008, 09:38 PM
BTW, good news as far as TV for the game.. ALL of Canada will be getting the Dolphins-Jets game on CBS next Sunday.. CBS's #1 broadcast team will be covering the game and it has been deemed the national game in the US on opening weekend.

Southern Ontario gets the Buffalo Bills games first.. However, this weekend FOX (who covers the NFC) will be broadcasting the Buffalo-Seattle game (since Seattle is an NFC team).. Therefore CBS is not covering the Bills game at all.. Everyone will get the Fins-Jets game on CBS.

Just a heads up to those who don't have the NFL package. ;)

Montana
09-01-2008, 07:52 PM
Montana, this should make you feel a little better. I have been scouring some Jets boards and Faneca has looked very good. He has given the Jets O-line a 'mean streak".. Here's a video of Faneca coming over to help out D-Brick on Jason Taylor on a pass to Keller for a TD. (Taylor is #55 for Wash)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVkOTAgj0qk&eurl=http://jetsinsider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175304

On the replay later you can see it better.. Now, again, that is against an undersized Jason Taylor.. And I saw Taylor on his ass all year last season getting run over. But Faneca has planted a few others like that in preseason.

With Faneca on board, our pass-blocking has looked fanstastic.......which is great news, because Favre with time, is especially dangerous.............but I have to admit, I haven't seen enough of a push from the guys when it comes to run-blocking........hopefully that's something they'll improve upon once the season gets going.......I'm expecting a lot more than last years, 3.6 yards per carry, and 1 rushing TD from Thomas Jones.


With that said, That Dustin Keller scares me. VERY fast for a TE and he has some amazing talent. I was hoping Miami would pick him at 32 but the Jets snagged him at 30.. Then again, we got Merling at 32 who was considered a top 15 pick before his surgery and I can't complain with how he's been a beast on the field.

You're 100% right.......Keller's got some real special skills that he brings to the TE position, and as we've seen in Favre's past, he's very capable and very willing to make the TE a intricate part of the offense.

He's also praised Keller up and down this preseason, saying he's really going to be something special.........so it should be interesting to see just how much he's used on Sunday.


(don't know about you........but he really reminds me of Washinton's Chris Cooley)



About your Belichick comment.. He makes mistakes too.. He picked Chad Jackson #36 overall a couple of years ago. And Jackson was coming from a gimmick offense at the U of Florida (look at all the florida receivers who busted or didn't live up to expectations over the past 20 years). The guy only had <10 yards per catch in that gimmick offense, then he ran a good combine time and the hype started........

No doubt........everyone in football makes plenty of mistakes. But I suspect that the flaws you've seen in Gholston, aren't flaws that escaped Belicheck's analysis.......but he still felt strongly enough about the kid that he deemed him worthy of drafting at 7th overall, and even tried to trade up to be able to select him.

Obviously he couls till be a bust.........either for the reasons you believe.........or something completely unrelated. Or, he could develop as time goes on, and become a productive membere of the team.......only time will tell.



BTW, good news as far as TV for the game.. ALL of Canada will be getting the Dolphins-Jets game on CBS next Sunday.. CBS's #1 broadcast team will be covering the game and it has been deemed the national game in the US on opening weekend.

Southern Ontario gets the Buffalo Bills games first.. However, this weekend FOX (who covers the NFC) will be broadcasting the Buffalo-Seattle game (since Seattle is an NFC team).. Therefore CBS is not covering the Bills game at all.. Everyone will get the Fins-Jets game on CBS.

Just a heads up to those who don't have the NFL package.


Gonna have Sunday Ticket set up by then anyway........but it's always nice when the games on across the country..........as a Jets fan, it can be a rare occasion that we get national coverage, that isn't a Sunday or Monday nighter.

LeafNation
09-01-2008, 08:33 PM
Dammit ! This tropical storm may turn into a hurricane by Saturday/Sunday

http://www.stormpulse.com/tropical-storm-ike-2008

Not only are Hurricanes Gustav and Hanna around, but look at that storm tracker for Tropical storm Ike.. Now you may look at that projection and say that it looks good for Sunday, but keep in mind that Hurricane Andrew built up speed from 15 mph to 24 mph when it hit the middle Atlantic. And it hit south florida much quicker than anticipated, devastating the region.

Andrew had a similar forecast to Ike there.. It looked like a weak tropical storm out in the atlantic a week before it hit florida.. Only to turn into a category 4 hurricane as it gained strength going over the Atlantic.

Oh boy, this could be bad news. FOX just mentioned (during their 8pm advisory) that Ike will be headed towards cuba by the weekend. But that's too close for comfort as these things can turn QUICKLY, and unexpectedly...

LeafNation
09-01-2008, 11:10 PM
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/pro--sports/trackmap3.jpg

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/pro--sports/FinsCheerleader.jpg

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/pro--sports/FinsCheerleafer.jpg

Yes. It's Hurricane season. And Football season ! :thumbsup(22):

worm
09-01-2008, 11:17 PM
NFL starts on sunday?

LeafNation
09-01-2008, 11:19 PM
Technically the NFL season starts this Thursday night when the Redskins play the NY Giants.

This weekend is opening weekend, yes.

worm
09-01-2008, 11:21 PM
aaaahhh... nice...i was unsure whether it was this weekend or next weekend

are they going to show any fins games on TV this season?

LeafNation
09-01-2008, 11:32 PM
aaaahhh... nice...i was unsure whether it was this weekend or next weekend

are they going to show any fins games on TV this season?


BTW, good news as far as TV for the game.. ALL of Canada will be getting the Dolphins-Jets game on CBS next Sunday.. CBS's #1 broadcast team will be covering the game and it has been deemed the national game in the US on opening weekend.

Southern Ontario gets the Buffalo Bills games first.. However, this weekend FOX (who covers the NFC) will be broadcasting the Buffalo-Seattle game (since Seattle is an NFC team).. Therefore CBS is not covering the Bills game at all.. Everyone will get the Fins-Jets game on CBS.

Just a heads up to those who don't have the NFL package. ;)

Go to MiamiDolphins.com and click the AquaVision bar below the screen ( where it says "open AquaVision media player).. You will then get a new screen with links to player interviews via video... There were plenty of player interviews today in the locker room following practice that can be seen there. The team looks very confident for this game vs the Jets Sunday, much moreso that a year ago in the season opener.. A high intensity offseason program, along with 44 new players and 22 new rookies in the offseason will do that (most of which made the team) ;)

worm
09-01-2008, 11:38 PM
wow
thanks LN
i will try to see as many games as possible this season

LeafNation
09-04-2008, 09:38 AM
Here is a TV distribution map for Sunday's games on CBS-

http://www.the506.com/nflmaps/2008-01-CBS.html

It looks like the Miami-Jets game will be shown from Ontario to BC as they usually show the games just over the border.. They will show the NE/KC game from Quebec to the east (thank goodness for sunday ticket).

And a NY Times article on Pennington today-

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/04/sports/football/04pennington.html?_r=2&scp=1&sq=pennington&st=cse&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Gotta love the fact that Dan Henning is Miami's new offensive co-ordinator.. He was on the coaching staff for the Redskins offense when they had that pro-set power offense that led them to 2 super bowl victories.. Henning was the offensive co-ordinator for Carolina when they went from a 1-15 record to a super bowl berth just 2 years later .. He was also the offensive co-ordinator with the Jets under Parcells when they went from 1-15 record to 12-4 in just 2 years ( co-ordinator for the 12-4 season).

Montana
09-04-2008, 09:52 AM
For all the Fins and Jets fans on this board, here's an interesting read on the two rival teams heading into the match up this sunday (btw, this article is on the front page of FinHeaven dotcom).. Not saying I agree with all of it 100%, to be sure, but interesting nonetheless-


That right up of the game was interesting LN.........although it really seemed like the guy just stole everything you had been saying for the last two weeks in this thread.........and through it together as a column.


Gotta love the fact that Dan Henning is Miami's new offensive co-ordinator.. He was on the coaching staff for the Redskins offense when they had that pro-set power offense that led them to 2 super bowl victories.. Henning was the offensive co-ordinator for Carolina when they went from a 1-15 record to a super bowl berth just 2 years later .. He was also the offensive co-ordinator with the Jets under Parcells when they went from 1-15 record to 12-4 in just 2 years ( co-ordinator for the 12-4 season).

Obviously Henning's not going to be able to do anything resembling the turnaround's of those teams listed......I think he'll be beneficial to you guys. He's extremely conservative in his play calling, which given your lack of playmakers on offense (outside of your running game) is the right way to go.

He'll enable you to have good ball control, and eat up lots of the clock.......and in games that the defense is able to hold their ground, he'll be able to keep you in games.

That said, it'll be a huge achievement if he can lead that offense to 6 wins.

LeafNation
09-05-2008, 02:06 AM
That said, it'll be a huge achievement if he can lead that offense to 6 wins.

I disagree. I think 6 wins is expected (barring key injury). It would be huge to win 8 or more.. Understand that the team was totally out of shape out of the gate last year.. Half the roster was on injured reserve during the season, there was a below average o-line, a terrible d-line, and HORRIBLE coaching.

And still, Miami lost 6 games by only 3 pts or less despite every possible thing going against them. It was just an absolute mess. Everything that could go wrong went wrong. I have never seen anything like it in 27 years of watching football.

If you saw the Skins/Giants game tonight, it would give you a sense how terrible the coaching was for us last season. Think Rich Kotite.

Now fast forward to this season. Parcells and Ireland brought in 27 new players (that''s over half the roster, with most of those players being high-character players to boot). The team has great enthusiasm and play like their hair is on fire (unlike last season when they were sleep walking on the field), and had a fantastic offseason training program instead of loafing like they did last year. Built the lines. Have Ricky Williams healthy and inspired to start the season (when last year they didn't have him).. Not to mention there are ZERO players on the injury report for week 1 -- Thanks to the intense offseason training program working wonders already.. They have been in the offseason program together since March ( there was not one player missing with the exception of Jason Taylor because he was too busy in Hollywood dancing for the stars -- and with that you could see how pathetic and out of shape he looked tonight for Washington ;) ).

The run defense is Much improved.. And when you can stop the run, then you can start to do some things defensively.

Then you add a coaching staff that is 1000 miles better than last season. Getting Pasqualoni and Bowles from Dallas to coach the defense, and Henning for the offense, is a massive improvement.. Not to mention they now have a head coach that the players respect-

http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/football/miami-dolphins/story/669309.html

Last season the players trashed coach Cameron on a flight back to Miami after a game, they just absolutely hated him- he was a total pushover who held no accountability for anyone or anything..

With that said, the team certainly has a couple of holes, no doubt about it.. But a large majority of teams have some holes. The Patriots best corner now is Hobbs, they lost their 2 starting corners, and lost their pro bowl corner to the Eagles.. And their backup QB is one of the worst QB's I have ever seen. They lost Stallworth who opened up Moss and Welker more.. They could also use a couple of O-lineman (as just an example)..

With that said, how about 34 year old Jason Taylor's play tonight for the Skins. He was absolutely awful. Just Putrid..... Getting pushed around like a rag doll against the run all game long.. It's no secret why the Giants purposely ran his way all night long. Taylor looked ridiculous when he wasn't invisible.. This guy will not be a big loss like some suggest. Our defense will be improved over last season. And not just slightly improved, but will show some steady good improvement (barring key injuries).. The upgrades made on the D-line alone will help the defense immensely. Having 2 new defensive ends who are stout at the point of attack will do that (something we didn't have last year as the 2 edges on our D-line just stunk).

The Jets are going down and going down hard on Sunday ;) . They're going to get their asses kicked. The pride is back in Miami.. The dirty rotten stinkin' Jets are expecting the 1-15 Dolphins of 2007.. But what they will be walking into is a Hornets nest.. By the time the Jets realize they are in a real fight, it will be too late for them :hamer:


:cheers2:

Montana
09-05-2008, 05:38 AM
In other words...........you think 8 wins is a big accomplishment, as opposed to the 6, I believe would be.

Montana
09-05-2008, 05:39 AM
The Jets are going down and going down hard on Sunday . They're going to get their asses kicked. The pride is back in Miami.. The dirty rotten stinkin' Jets are expecting the 1-15 Dolphins of 2007.. But what they will be walking into is a Hornets nest.. By the time the Jets realize they are in a real fight, it will be too late for them

Just how confident are you?.......willing to lay any kind of spread to the "ass kicking" Miami is going to unleash on us?

LeafNation
09-05-2008, 06:09 AM
Tell you what.. The Jets are favored by 3 pts, correct?

Well forget about the points, I'll give them to you. We'll go straight up, winner take all. Payment to be made via paypal within 24 hrs of the end of the game. Deal? How much you want to wager?



http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/pro--sports/JetsSpit.jpg

Montana
09-05-2008, 06:12 AM
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/pro--sports/JetsSpit.jpg

:lol

That's awesome.



Tell you what.. The Jets are favored by 3 pts, correct?

Well forget about the points. We'll go straight up. Payment to be made via paypal within 24 hrs of the end of the game. Deal? How much you want to wager?

I won't lie........I was hoping I could use your strong belief in a Dolphins pounding of the Jets, that I could wrangle some nice odds out of you......

Give me a touchdown, and I'll be interested.....(you did too good a job of convincing me the heat's gonna kill us...:sarcasm)

LeafNation
09-05-2008, 06:19 AM
I won't lie........I was hoping I could use your strong belief in a Dolphins pounding of the Jets, that I could wrangle some nice odds out of you......


You wuss.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/pro--sports/LonelyJetsFan.jpg

Montana
09-05-2008, 06:24 AM
You wuss.


What happened to....

"The Jets are going down and going down hard on Sunday . They're going to get their asses kicked."


No confidence in your boys beating us by a measily TD?


http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/pro--sports/LonelyJetsFan.jpg

:lol

The picture of Suzie Colbert is what makes it.

LeafNation
09-05-2008, 09:28 AM
''Once you get on the field, you can sense it in the crowd,'' Williams said. "When you play down here against the Jets, there's always so many Jets fans. It's an honor to shut them up.'' - Ricky Williams


ps - Ricky Williams is 4-1 against the Jets during his Dolphin career. ;)

leafman101
09-05-2008, 11:01 AM
I'll take the bet, its football season. Drinking and gambling is what its all about.

And Ricky Williams couldn't even run against a CFL defense anymore.

MyNameIsJonas
09-05-2008, 11:01 AM
the Jets fan wants points given to him?......the original line was 1.5......and the noob public has pushed it to 3.5......

LeafNation
09-05-2008, 11:21 AM
I'll take the bet, its football season. Drinking and gambling is what its all about.

Now that's the spirit !

How much you wanna go ? A hundred ? $200 ?

No one is giving any points. Straight up pick em' winner of the game take all. :cheers2:

Fitzgerald#11
09-05-2008, 11:26 AM
anyone else cash in on the weak line in last nights game?

leafman101
09-05-2008, 11:31 AM
Now that's the spirit !

How much you wanna go ? A hundred ? $200 ?

No one is giving any points. Straight up pick em' winner of the game take all. :cheers2:

Unfortunately I am an unemployed student, so i have to be responsible-ish. We'll make it interesting though, I'll go $100.

LeafNation
09-05-2008, 11:36 AM
Unfortunately I am an unemployed student, so i have to be responsible-ish. We'll make it interesting though, I'll go $100.

DONE ! Loser pays the winner via paypal on Monday. We will exchange paypal email addresses via PM Monday.



the Jets fan wants points given to him?......the original line was 1.5......and the noob public has pushed it to 3.5......

Great, because it's a sucker bet.. This is a classic "Trap" game if there ever was one.. The Jets will be looking forward to the Patriots next week and the Chargers the following week.. All the while underestimating the improved and fired up Dolphins.

MyNameIsJonas
09-05-2008, 11:38 AM
as a general rule...never pass on a home dog opening week.....

i love the dolphins plus 3.5 and i love the falcons plus 3.5

Fitzgerald#11
09-05-2008, 11:38 AM
Great, because it's a sucker bet.. This is a classic "Trap" game if there ever was one.. The Jets will be looking forward to the Patriots next week and the Chargers the following week.. All the while underestimating the improved and fired up Dolphins.
Or they understand that they have to win this game or they could be looking at 0-3 to start the year keeping in mind they have the Cards week 4.

MyNameIsJonas
09-05-2008, 11:39 AM
best of luck LeafNation....i think youre going to have it though....this seems like a 3 point game either way.

leafman101
09-05-2008, 11:47 AM
It's pretty hard to look ahead past opening day, the first game they have played in 8 months. Maybe if it was week 9 you'd have an argument.

And speaking of overlooking offseason improvement....

Also there are no points, do the "3 either way" is irrelevant.

LeafNation
09-05-2008, 12:00 PM
It's pretty hard to look ahead past opening day, the first game they have played in 8 months. Maybe if it was week 9 you'd have an argument..


Or they understand that they have to win this game or they could be looking at 0-3 to start the year keeping in mind they have the Cards week 4.

To both of you -- Research then post Favre's numbers for season openers since 2002.

First post his total combined TD's in all those season openers , his total INT's, and total fumbles.. Then post his game-by game numbers for his last 3 season openers. ;)

leafman101
09-05-2008, 12:02 PM
To both of you -- Research then post Favre's numbers for season openers since 2002.

First post his total combined TD's in all those season openers , his total INT's, and total fumbles.. Then post his game-by game numbers for his last 3 season openers. ;)

Farve's opening day record the last 3 years: 1-2

Pennington's: 1-2

Thats the only stat that matters.

JaysCyYoung
09-05-2008, 12:04 PM
To both of you -- Research then post Favre's numbers for season openers since 2002.

First post his total combined TD's in all those season openers , his total INT's, and total fumbles.. Then post his game-by game numbers. ;)

I have no personal bias in this since I'm not really a huge NFL fan and don't maintain an allegience to any particular team so I decided to do some research on your questions, LN.

2002: W Green Bay 37 Atlanta 24
2003: L Minnesota 30 Green Bay 25
2004: W Green Bay 24 Carolina 14
2005: L Detroit 17 Green Bay 3
2006: L Chicago 26 Green Bay 14
2007: W Green Bay 16 Philadelphia 13

Total record: 3-3 (.500).

Favre's game-by-game numbers:

2002: 25 for 36 passing, 284 yards, 2 TD, 0 INT.
2003: 25 for 41 passing, 248 yards, 1 TD, 4 INT.
2004: 15 for 22 passing, 143 yards, 1 TD, 0 INT.
2005: 27 for 44 passing, 201 yards, 0 TD, 2 INT.
2006: 15 for 29 passing, 170 yards, 0 TD, 2 INT.
2007: 23 for 42 passing, 206 yards, 0 TD, 1 INT.

Totals: 130 for 214 passing (61% completion rating), 1252 total yards passing, 4 TD, 9 INT.

That's a pretty shaky record in opening days, and if you go by the last three years Favre hasn't thrown a touchdown in the first game of the season while also tossing 5 interceptions. Pretty bad if you ask me.

LeafNation
09-05-2008, 12:06 PM
Farve's opening day record the last 3 years: 1-2

Pennington's: 1-2

Thats the only stat that matters.

Pennington is 2-0 against Favre.

And since 2003, in Favre's season openers he has 2 TD's / 11 INT's / 4 fumbles. he sure looks like a slow starter. And for a team that I don't see being able to score multiple touchdowns running the ball on Miami's new defensive front, that has to be concerning for Jets fans I would imagine.

Fitzgerald#11
09-05-2008, 12:13 PM
I still like Jets laying the 3 in this one. And the under if the effects of that hurrincane are there by game time.

Also like the Steelers -6.5 at home vs the Texans.

leafman101
09-05-2008, 12:15 PM
Pennington is 2-0 against Favre.

And since 2003, in Favre's season openers he has 2 TD's / 11 INT's / 4 fumbles. he sure looks like a slow starter. And for a team that I don't see being able to score multiple touchdowns running the ball on Miami's new defensive front, that has to be concerning for Jets fans I would imagine.

Not really. Picking out games like that is pretty circumstantial. They are just singular games.

Its not like looking at a guy in baseball, who notoriously doesn't start hitting until june, or a goal scorer in hockey who tends to stop scoring after the all start game.

Things change week to week and year to year in the NFL. I don't think it tells you much to pick out single games like that.

I mean if you think about it in 2005 they played the Lions who were coming off of a 6 win season (5 in 2005), 2006 the Bears coming off of an 11 win season (13 in 2006), last year Philly coming off of a 10 win season (8 in 2007).

The Dolphins are his worst opening day opponent, by a large margin, over that period.

Also the only game in there against a division rival he was great in.

Like I said. Circumstantial.

LeafNation
09-05-2008, 12:16 PM
And the under if the effects of that hurrincane are there by game time..They are safe for the hurricane. The sunday forecast is low 90's partly sunny with mid humidity and 10% chance of showers ( only 5 mph winds).

Anyway, he had 9 INT's, not 11.. When you include his fumbles that is 2TD's / 13 turnovers in Favre's last 5 season openers.

LeafNation
09-05-2008, 12:20 PM
Not really. Picking out games like that is pretty circumstantial. They are just singular games..

No doubt. But by the same token he has shown a propensity to be a slow starter recently... Now anything can happen in the world of sports, especially football.. People buck trends all the time in sports.. But I thought it was worth noting.

LeafNation
09-05-2008, 12:25 PM
I still like Jets laying the 3 in this one.

Would you also like to make a bet with me ?

Fitzgerald#11
09-05-2008, 12:46 PM
sorry all my bets for Sunday are in already.

we'll see if theres something else down the line though

MyNameIsJonas
09-05-2008, 12:58 PM
Fitz...i actually like the texans to cover there

Fitzgerald#11
09-05-2008, 01:01 PM
In Pittsburg? I dunno man, Steelers have toughest sched this year I think and this is a game they have to get. I think the Texans are on the rise but playing at Hienz Field is gonna be tough. Big Ben and Wille P healthy this year will be big for them. And there D is always toush especially at home.

LeafNation
09-05-2008, 01:21 PM
The thing to watch in that game is the Texans defensive front 7 against Pittsburgh's "iffy" O-line.. Houston boasts some very nice young talent up front with Mario Williams, Amobi Okoye and DeMeco Ryans

The Texans also have a solid offensive line with a respectable running game.. They run an efficient offense. I think this matchup makes for a very physical game.

Fitzgerald#11
09-05-2008, 01:26 PM
what do guys think about the Bengals-Ravens game? Its basically a pick em' with the Bengals laying 2.

Not entirely sure how the Ravens plan on scoring with Flacco starting and McGahee banged up. Though the line is fishy for some reason.

LeafNation
09-05-2008, 01:40 PM
http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/09/05/ted-sunquists-week-one-scouting-reports-jets-at-dolphins/

TED SUNQUIST’S WEEK ONE SCOUTING REPORTS: JETS AT DOLPHINS

Too bad there aren’t any story lines for two AFC East teams returning in ‘08 with a combined five wins between them. Are you kidding me? As if Brett Favre wearing “JET” green wasn’t enough to talk about; throw in the reclamation project of Bill Parcells in Miami, Chad Pennington opening against the team that drafted him in the first round in 2000 and the impending threat of hurricanes or tropical storms that may strike southern Florida over the weekend. That’s not even mentioning the blasted heat and humidity that tends to wilt Miami opponents in early September. This game represents a rebirth of one team, and a shot — if not a last gasp — at playoff contention for another.

Emotion will play as big a factor in this game as any across the League this weekend. Who could have envisioned back in March that Brett Favre would eventually “unretire” and leave the Packers in the situation they found themselves this summer? But much to G.M. Mike Tannebaum and head coach Eric Mangini’s delight, New York thinks they’ve added just the catalyst to jump start a sagging offense from 2007. Favre brings not only a champion’s leadership qualities to his on-field play, but he may even have a little left in the tank (6th in QB rating ’07) to move a unit that ranked 26th in total offense last season. In limited action he was quite accurate, if not efficient, completing 14 of 18 for 144 yards and 1 touchdown. Critics point to the fact that Favre spent 16 seasons with a club whose offensive philosophy was built around the “West Coast” theory of precision timing routes. Year after year he could rely on the talent of Sharpe, Brooks, Freeman, Walker, or Driver to come up with the “big catch” on the other end of one of his “big plays”. Questions now abound as to how he will respond to the “read and react” patterns of New York’s scheme.

His ability to do so will be KEY #1 to a fast start for the Jets. Miami will look to shut down the run first, something they were able to accomplish over their 3-1 preseason. Favre will more than likely be given every opportunity to beat the Dolphins through the air. Miami’s retooled front posted 14 sacks in the month of August. They had 24 all of last year!

New York’s defense will try to slow down the prototypical run game of a Bill Parcells-constructed team. New head coach Tony Sparano is an offensive line coach by trade and would love nothing more than to establish a reliable ground attack early. Little wonder that Dolphins G.M. Jeff Ireland signed the athletic OG Justin Smiley through free agency and then used the first pick of the draft to select talented OT Jake Long, effectively solidifying the left side. Samson Satele is a young holdover from the last regime at center, while massive veteran OT Vernon Carey holds down the right tackle position. This rebuilt front, that includes rookies Shawn Murphy and Donald Thomas at OG, are all listed at or over 310 lbs, with the exception of Satele at 300 lbs. To counter this push up front, the Jets bring their own retooled line bolstered by the offseason acquisition of “huge” NT Kris Jenkins. Jenkins is the perfect fit for the 3-4 scheme. Well documented weight problems in Carolina aside, Jenkins is stout at the point of attack and very athletic for a man his size. He will strongly test the interior front of the Miami offense and should allow the LB’s more room to roam and fill versus the run. The Jets struggled in ’07 at times to slow many opponents down on the ground, especially in short yardage, and Jenkins play will be KEY #2.

Despite being released by his first opponent (which was as much a political move to add the superstar Favre as it was linked to performance), Chad Pennington brings a bit of stability to a position that has floundered over the past few seasons in Miami. Pennington showed workman-like efficiency in August, passing for 72% with no turnovers or sacks to his credit. Though the future appears to be second-round pick Chad Henne’s, Pennington will be able to “hold down the fort” while the rest of the offense pulls together and Henne continues to develop. Pennington is smart, tough, extremely accurate, a leader and has three seasons of playoff experience; exactly what you need to tutor a young QB in the wings and to lead in a rebuilding effort. So quickly respected was Pennington, that the team elected him captain this week (as the Jets did with Favre). His career Achilles heel has been injuries to most body parts except his Achilles heel. Given the situation, look for the Dolphins to keep things fairly balanced, if not somewhat conservative.

The Dolphins will work to Smiley and Long’s side in establishing the run game, which I KEY #3, and hope to wear out the Jets in the heat and humidity of Dolphin Stadium. One thing RB Ricky Williams is, a workhorse. Monitored properly and given the correct load, the Dolphins are 16-3 when he rushes for more than 100 yards. And don’t forget that Ronnie Brown added four 100-yard games of his own in ’07 before suffering a season-ending knee injury. This should allow for the offense to cut down on some of its preseason mistakes (penalties and fumbles), create some early confidence and will surely be a “must” if the aforementioned weather dictates the play.

KEY #4 is linked to KEY #1, controlling Brett Favre. The Dolphins will play a mix of 3-4 and 4-3 looks at the Jets to take advantage of personnel and to keep the opponent off balance. There certainly won’t be much thrown at Favre that he hasn’t seen, but whether he can read it quickly enough and find the open man is pending. Miami sacked opposing QB’s 14 times in preseason to lead the NFL (NYJ was #2 with 13). The pressure came from across the board (DT, DE & LB) so the defensive staff has to be pleased with the flexibility of their front seven thus far. Hopefully this will improve the overall play of DB’s Will Allen and Michael Lehan as well. However Favre still shows me the foot quickness and pocket presence that can improve any team’s offensive line in a hurry. Jericho Cotchery and Laveranues Coles are a solid WR tandem and the Dolphins will get plenty of multiple-receiver sets, but the two have not been traditionally big-play producers. Can Favre stay patient in the face of a fired up defense that held opposing QB’s to just 55.6% in the preseason and forced 4 interceptions? If so, look for a ball control passing game to move the chains and then for Favre to try and sneak one over the defense deep, similar to his second-quarter drive against the Giants in the preseason.

If the storms turn nasty, the play of both punters could be KEY #5 to this game. Any screw up in getting the ball out of your own end of the field under poor conditions can be the determining factor in winning or losing a close game. Both Jets punter Ben Graham and Dolphin punter Brandon Fields have decent gross averages, but Graham has pinned opponents inside the 20 forty-nine times in two seasons. A long field, with fumble problems over their last four games, is not what Miami needs to get off to a good start.

MyNameIsJonas
09-05-2008, 01:52 PM
texans steelers has a great potential for a close game for the reasons LN said.....Texans could be the most underrated team in the NFL, and Matt Schaub most underrated QB

LeafNation
09-05-2008, 02:51 PM
With another solid draft next year the Texans can be a contender in the AFC. If they just shore up the secondary and a couple positions while the youth in their strong positions mature, they will be a true force.

LeafNation
09-05-2008, 03:19 PM
BTW Jonas, there are some really good player interviews just released on MiamiDolphins.com . Since you're a dolphins fan.......

Go to the site and just click on the "Open Aquavision Media Player" link under the video screen on the right side of the homepage.. You'll see plenty of player interviews taken inside the locker room after practice ( including today and yesterday). I think it's cool, I don't see other teams do this sort of thing on a daily basis on their team site,.

Jason Ferguson is always a good interview. The guy is a total riot.. Crowder is a piece of work as well.. Porter of course...... Justin Smiley also is good, he's a character. BTW, lsten to what he says about the two rooks on the O-line. I also recommend defensive co-ordinator Paul Pasqualoni's press conference (which you will see there). Very informative..... There's a lot more there, about 40 pages.. Some good stuff , enjoy ;)

Wayward DP
09-05-2008, 03:28 PM
The Texans are a very good and much improved team, but they've still got a ways to go. They play in maybe the toughest division in football, and still have to pass the Jags, Colts, and Titans before they can really be a force in the AFC. And all of those three teams are excellent at drafting and have some extremely talented players.

Another game that should be a great one is Jags vs Titans. They opened the season against each other last year and the Titans beat the Jags at home, wearing them down and actually doing better in the heat than the Jags. Not to mention these two have been division rivals forever, and Richard Collier is in the hospital fighting for his life. Should be an inspired effort from both sides.

This year is going to be the year my Jags finally win the AFC South and beat out the Colts

MyNameIsJonas
09-05-2008, 04:27 PM
i like your jags too....

for the record this is how i see the playoff picture

AFC

Chargers
Pats
Jaguars
Browns

Colts
Bills

The first 5 are automatic for me, but im going bills just because i think they ahve some talent and a soft scheduale, i feel the Steelers sched is too tough, and while i like both the Texans and TItans, i never take three teams froma division....My ultra dark horse is Oakland....a great d...and potential firepower on offense....

MyNameIsJonas
09-05-2008, 04:28 PM
NFC

Cowboys
VIkings
Seahawks
Saints

Cardinals
Giants

LeafNation
09-06-2008, 06:26 AM
:lol

Give me a touchdown, and I'll be interested.....(you did too good a job of convincing me the heat's gonna kill us.

Well you see, I am just saying it like it is.. But I will leave you with this-

In 2005, the last time the dolphins had a hard tough training camp in the heat (after picking 2nd in the draft mind you), the Dolphins played the eventual top two teams in each conference in September at home.. Saban was a new coach for the dolphins, and he stressed a very tough high intensity training camp (like this year)

The Broncos were 13-3 that year and were the #1 seed in the AFC, they had home field advantage throughout the playoffs.. They came to Miami for the season opener and got their asses handed to them by the tune of 34-10.. Denver players were done by halftime taking themselves out of the game to be replaced by backups.

The Carolina Panthers came down to Miami on September 25th later that month.. And Carolina was 2nd in the NFC and made it to the NFC championship game that season.. Well, they wilted in the heat and Ronnie Brown had a big day as a rookie running the ball..

Also keep in mind that that Carolina defense was damn good. They had your boy Kris Jenkins on the D-line as well as Julius Peppers who was considered one of the best DE's in the game.. And Jenkins was done by the 3rd quarter taking himself out of the ballgame (what's funny is Miami's O-line is A LOT better now than it was back then in 2005).

In fact, you can see some of Ronnie Brown's runs in that 2005 game in the heat against Carolina (starting at 1:50 in the video)-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7F6taorJT0k

Again, Miami had the 2nd overall pick in the draft that year (picking Brown as you see in that vid).. Miami was not considered a good team.. But they were easily able to handle two very good teams at home in September ( both teams eventually making it to their respective conference championship games)........ Now again, anything can happen during the course of a Sunday. I am just saying that the heat and humidity at that time of year has to be seen as an advantage for the dophins. They practice hard in that heat which causes your blood to be thinner after you get used to it.. When other teams come in against a Miami team (who's in shape) very early in the year, they are at a disadvantage.

Montana
09-06-2008, 07:00 AM
F*ck it, I'll throw 100 on Gang Green.

Montana
09-06-2008, 07:15 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mchjKZfffQ


Mom????

LeafNation
09-06-2008, 08:51 AM
This boy and his teammates on the revamped O-line are going to run all over the green punks on your defense tomorrow-

http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?categoryId=2963048&brand=null&videoId=3570181&n8pe6c=1

puckinA
09-06-2008, 10:03 AM
I sure hope my Panthers have a better year.......

leafman101
09-06-2008, 11:19 AM
This boy and his teammates on the revamped O-line are going to run all over the green punks on your defense tomorrow-

http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?categoryId=2963048&brand=null&videoId=3570181&n8pe6c=1

He couldn't block Gholston in college, why would he be able to now?

...and Gholston "sucks"

LeafNation
09-06-2008, 11:26 AM
He couldn't block Gholston in college, why would he be able to now?

...and Gholston "sucks"

I love it how Jets fans go on one play in college.. ONE PLAY.. They totally forget about all the other 100+ plays during the last 2 games they played against each other.. Check out the VIP section on fin heaven.com , and check before the draft. A few people had game tapes of those games. And Jake clearly played well against bad hip Vernon 98% of the time.

As a matter of fact, ohio state moved him to play on the opposite side of the line for 60% of the plays. Because aside from a play or two, he was getting pushed around when going up against Jake... But don't let the facts get in the way of anything ;)

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/pro--sports/GholstonSucks.jpg

LeafNation
09-06-2008, 06:39 PM
Here's something to get pumped up on the eve of opening weekend..... I was perusing some old NFL footage last week gearing up for football, and I really miss those excellent intro's and themes they used to have.

And boy, do I miss some of those great announcers like Howard Cosell, Pat Summerall etc.

Remember the CBS themes and intro's ? When I hear that music at 1:40 in the next vid it just hits me.. As someone said there, football broadcasts had almost a "religious" aspect to them. They were so well done.. Here's one of them-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xxkii-_hsG0

And this is way back when Howard Cosell and the great Don Meredith were calling games for Monday night football.. Quite simply the best broadcasting team in Sports history.. What charisma...... No one could touch em, they were the best of the best...Oh boy, look at this,- we just don't have such characters today. It never got better than this- ( watch from 1:30 on , hot damn that gives me goosebumps)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOkgcFj6MJQ

Even the pregame show intro's were good in their time. This is The NFL Today back in the early 80's- (when you were into football back then you knew what that music meant when you heard it)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vMA22xJEcQ

Ahhhh. just excited for tomorrow. That is good stuff. I thought it was appropriate to post on the eve of the season opener.