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Habspatrol
06-17-2010, 09:27 PM
I know it's just two prospect fans' opinion but...



Was how IW and I had Couture and Eller ranked when we compiled our prospect list.

I'm sure that you guys were probably fairly accurate. I really don't think anyone here believes Eller is a better prospect than Couture.

Habspatrol
06-17-2010, 09:28 PM
What site do you guys use for cap numbers? nhlnumbers or capgeek?

nhlnumbers.

hockeylover
06-17-2010, 09:28 PM
I think CapGeek is probably more accurate but I kinda like NHLNumbers for how it's laid out a bit better.

MyNameIsJonas
06-17-2010, 10:20 PM
If Eller is slated to become the 2nd line C for Montreal this season. I expect Plekanec's right's to be dealt.

And i expec tthat $$$$ to go to Frolov

habs25th
06-17-2010, 10:22 PM
If Eller is slated to become the 2nd line C for Montreal this season. I expect Plekanec's right's to be dealt.

And i expec tthat $$$$ to go to Frolov

I doubt they expect Eller to be our second line center this year. The cash we saved on Halak will be used on Plekanec.

MyNameIsJonas
06-17-2010, 10:24 PM
I doubt they expect Eller to be our second line center this year. The cash we saved on Halak will be used on Plekanec.

doesnt Price need to be paid also?

JaysCyYoung
06-17-2010, 10:31 PM
Could Montreal possibly looking at a formation such as this next season?


Forwards

Mike Cammalleri - Scott Gomez - Brian Gionta
Andrei Kostitsyn - Tomas Plekanec - Benoit Pouliot
Lars Eller - Maxim Lapierre - Max Pacioretty
Travis Moen - Tom Pyatt - Mathieu Darche/Sergei Kostitsyn

Extras: Matt D'Agostini, Ryan White, David Desharnais, Ben Maxwell, Brock Trotter.

Defencemen

Andrei Markov - Roman Hamrlik
Hal Gill - Jaroslav Spacek
P.K. Subban - Josh Gorges
Marc-Andre Bergeron/Shawn Belle?

Extras: Yannick Weber, Mathieu Carle, Jay Leach.

Goaltending

Carey Price
Curtis Sanford/Cedric Desjardins?

Is that about right or did I completely butcher the line combinations and overall depth chart? I'm also not sure about a few player's contract situation, such as Hamrlik and Mara. Will they be brought back or are they UFAs?

MyNameIsJonas
06-17-2010, 10:34 PM
Roman is still signed i believe

Montana
06-17-2010, 10:38 PM
Montreals biggest issue is this...........they finished 5th worst in the league in goals for, and Halak was the main reason they were able to just sneak into the playoffs at all.

Even if Price plays up to his potential, the odds are pretty slim that Montreal will get the level of play they received from Price + Halak last year, from a combo of Price and a back up.........so they`re going to need ostensibly the identical offense, to produce significantly better, just to be able to sneak into the playoffs again, let alone make a conference final again.

hockeylover
06-17-2010, 10:42 PM
Montreals biggest issue is this...........they finished 5th worst in the league in goals for

Wow, I had to look that up to confirm. That's kinda crazy. Even our shitty offense matched their goals/game.

MyNameIsJonas
06-17-2010, 10:43 PM
i say they sign frolov.

MyNameIsJonas
06-17-2010, 10:43 PM
maybe even trade for Sharp

JaysCyYoung
06-17-2010, 10:46 PM
Looking at the Habs line-up, they definitely lack that high-octaine element beyond Cammalleri. Gomez should be good for 60 points or so and Gionta should pot at least 25 over the course of a full-season, but I don't believe that anyone thinks he was the 49 goal man he was with New Jersey during that heavily offensive season back in 2006. They need help.

Montana
06-17-2010, 10:48 PM
Gionta should pot at least 25 over the course of a full-season,


He should be able to, considering he potted 28 in 61 games for them last year.

habs25th
06-17-2010, 10:49 PM
Could Montreal possibly looking at a formation such as this next season?


Forwards

Mike Cammalleri - Scott Gomez - Brian Gionta
Andrei Kostitsyn - Tomas Plekanec - Benoit Pouliot
Lars Eller - Maxim Lapierre - Max Pacioretty
Travis Moen - Tom Pyatt - Mathieu Darche/Sergei Kostitsyn

Extras: Matt D'Agostini, Ryan White, David Desharnais, Ben Maxwell, Brock Trotter.

Defencemen

Andrei Markov - Roman Hamrlik
Hal Gill - Jaroslav Spacek
P.K. Subban - Josh Gorges
Marc-Andre Bergeron/Shawn Belle?

Extras: Yannick Weber, Mathieu Carle, Jay Leach.

Goaltending

Carey Price
Curtis Sanford/Cedric Desjardins?



Is that about right or did I completely butcher the line combinations and overall depth chart? I'm also not sure about a few player's contract situation, such as Hamrlik and Mara. Will they be brought back or are they UFAs?

D'agostini was traded to St-Louis for Palushaj, and Jay Leach is with the Sharks. I doubt Bergeron is back. I think Mara still has a contract, not sure.

I hope they bring back Dom Moore, though it doesn't seem likely.

Montana
06-17-2010, 10:51 PM
I think Mara still has a contract, not sure.



I believe he's a UFA.

habs25th
06-17-2010, 10:52 PM
Looking at the Habs line-up, they definitely lack that high-octaine element beyond Cammalleri. Gomez should be good for 60 points or so and Gionta should pot at least 25 over the course of a full-season, but I don't believe that anyone thinks he was the 49 goal man he was with New Jersey during that heavily offensive season back in 2006. They need help.

Hopefully Andrei and B. Pouliot can bring that seconday scoring. Bringing in a Horton or someone like that should be a priority.

I think it's a playoffs lineup, and if the stars aligned we could make a run at the division given how weak it is.

JaysCyYoung
06-17-2010, 10:55 PM
Hopefully Andrei and B. Pouliot can bring that seconday scoring. Bringing in a Horton or someone like that should be a priority.

I think it's a playoffs lineup, and if the stars aligned we could make a run at the division given how weak it is.

The defence as a collective is actually underrated. No one is denying that the team benefitted from arguably the best or second-best goaltending situation in the league (really only Buffalo's situation was definitively superior), but it's got a nice mix of size and toughness, Markov should be around for a full slate of games rather than just half the season, Subban will be around and add a lot of creativity over 80 plus games and really help the forwards out with his ability to carry the puck and make an outlet pass, Gorges really made some tremendous strides last season as a legitimate top-four NHL defender, and Spacek and Hamrlik are perennially underrated. Hal Gill was tremendous in the playoff obviously. It's a good group of guys. It's the goal-scoring that needs addressing.

Blueman
06-18-2010, 12:03 AM
I brought up an old Dobber fantasy prospect report from 2007.

Here are Dobber's and Bugg's top 20 picks:

1 Patrick Kane C 1 Patrick Kane C
2 Alexei Cherepanov RW 2 Kyle Turris C
3 Kyle Turris C 3 James Van Riemsdyk RW
4 Sam Gagner RW 4 Sam Gagner RW
5 Jakub Voracek RW 5 Jakub Voracek RW
6 Angelo Esposito RW 6 Alexei Cherepanov LW
7 James Van Riemsdyk RW 7 Logan Couture C
8 Logan Couture C 8 Lars Eller LW
9 Maxim Mayorov LW 9 Angelo Esposito C
10 Zach Hamill C 10 Luca ****i C
11 David Perron RW 11 Mikael Backlund C
12 Michal Repik RW 12 Bill Sweatt LW
13 Luca ****i LW 13 Zach Hamill C
14 Kevin Shattenkirk D 14 Brandon Sutter C
15 Lars Eller LW 15 J.S. Allard F
16 Maxime Tanguay C 16 Vladimir Ruzicka RW
17 Mikael Backlund C 17 Michal Repik RW
18 Brett MacLean LW 18 Maxim Mayorov LW
19 Brendan Smith D 19 Maxime Tanguay C
20 Vladimir Ruzicka RW 20 T.J. Galiardi C

Habsy
06-18-2010, 12:15 AM
Here is what I did for the Habs board to show you how ****ed the Habs are cap wise. You can forget a big UFA signing unless Plekanec and Kostitsyn or Hamrlik go.



Signed Players

Scott Gomez - $7.357M
Mike Cammalleri - $6M
Brian Gionta - $5M
Andrei Kostitsyn - $3.25M
Travis Moen - $1.5M

Total Signed Forwards - $23.107M

Andrei Markov - $5.75M
Roman Hamrlik - $5.5M
Jaroslav Spacek - $3.833M
Hal Gill - $2.25M
Josh Gorges - $1.1M
Ryan O'Byrne - $941,667

Total Signed Defence - $19.375M

Total Signed Players - 11 (5 F, 6 D) - $42.481M

Laraque Buyout - $500,000

Remaining Cap Space - $15.819M

So what does this look like? Ugly.

XXXXX-Gomez-Gionta
Kostitsyn-XXXXX-Cammalleri
Moen-XXXXX-XXXXX
XXXXX-XXXXX-XXXXX

Markov-O'Byrne
Hamrlik-Spacek
Gill-Gorges

So now you see the predicament the Habs are in. They need to sign 10 skaters and 1 goalie with just under $16M.

Here is the list of signed players that played the majority in the minors but may get a spot on the big club.

Lars Eller - $1.271M
Ben Maxwell - $850,000
PK Subban - $875,000
Ryan White - $850,000
Max Pacioretty - $875,000

I will assume PK Subban, Eller and at least one of White, Maxell or Pacioretty will make the team.

3 players - $3.021M which brings the cap total to $45.5M which now leaves $13.3M. This gives us:

XXXXX-Gomez-Gionta
Kostitsyn-XXXXX-Cammalleri
Moen-XXXXX-XXXXX
Pacioretty-Eller-XXXXX

Add Subban to the D. I used Pacioretty but since the cap hits are pretty much interchangeable it can be anyone already signed.

Now we have 14 players signed and need 8 more as I believe they will go with a 22 man roster.

Price is out of his entry level contract and will not get his bonuses this time around. His base salary was $850K for the first three years. I expect him to sign for ~$2M.

This brings us to a cap hit of $47.5M for 15 players and leaves us $11.3M in space.

Now on to our RFA:

Max Lapierre made 668K last year. I expect that number to increase to $900K.

Pouliot made $800K, I expect $900K for the few goals he did score.

Pyatt made $850K with bonuses. Without bonuses I expect him to make $750K.

All together the three come to ~$2.55M. That brings us to $50.05M and leaves us with $8.75M.

What this looks like now is:

Pouliot-Gomez-Gionta
Kostitsyn-XXXXX-Cammalleri
Pyatt-Lapierre-Moen
Pacioretty-Eller-XXXX

Markov-Subban
Hamrlik-Spacek
Gill-Gorges
O'Byrne

Price

18 players at ~$50M and we are missing a top 2 center. It is safe to assume that the Habs will not be wasting money on a backup goalie. They will bring someone in for ~$750K be it Sanford or Desjardins.

That now brings us to $51M for 19 players.

I think it is safe to assume Plekanec will get his $5M per year. In this scenario we have:

Kostitsyn-Plekanec-Cammalleri
Pouliot-Gomez-Gionta
Pyatt-Lapierre-Moen
Pacioretty-Eller-XXXXX

Markov-Subban
Hamrlik-Spacek
Gill-Gorges
O'Byrne

Price
Desjardins/Sanford

Cap hit = ~$56M

Considering the space left is $2.8M and GMs always want to leave a buffer, I expect the last two spots to go to White and Maxwell for $1.7M total leaving us a million as a buffer.

Final realistic roster?

Kostitsyn-Plekanec-Cammalleri
Pouliot-Gomez-Gionta
Pyatt-Lapierre-Moen
Pacioretty-Eller-White
Maxwell

Markov-Subban
Hamrlik-Spacek
Gill-Gorges
O'Byrne

Price
Desjardins/Sanford

Cap hit $57.1M.


In summary, don't expect to see major changes this year unless Gauthier can find takers for Hamrlik or Kostitsyn. I think the plan is to give a few young guys from Hamilton the spots.

hockeylover
06-18-2010, 12:26 AM
You shouldn't be paying 7.4 million, 6 million, and 5 million to three guys up front and still be so concerned about offense. That is kinda scary.

zeke
06-18-2010, 12:56 AM
What site do you guys use for cap numbers? nhlnumbers or capgeek?

capgeek 100%

they are always 100% updated, and never have any mistakes. they also have nice features like the cap calculator (when speculating trades and signings), and showing the exact bonuses on rookie contracts.

much better than nhlnumbers.

zeke
06-18-2010, 12:58 AM
I don't know why you guys are looking at pre-draft reports on a guy like Eller.

It's been a long time since he was drafted - and while he's an interesting prospect, his stock has certainly dropped considerably since draft day.

Mega
06-18-2010, 01:13 AM
I enjoy your guys opinion's and with that in mind, whats your take on the Halak trade?

Habsy
06-18-2010, 01:14 AM
http://www.forumice.com/showthread.php?t=34810&page=135

worm
06-18-2010, 01:14 AM
ya...not sure either

doesnt really matter

subban had the same amount of goals and only 4 less points in the same amount of games

Montana
06-18-2010, 02:06 AM
Halak was traded?

worm
06-18-2010, 02:16 AM
yep

Sloan
06-18-2010, 02:26 AM
I enjoy your guys opinion's and with that in mind, whats your take on the Halak trade?

It is one of the worst moves our organization has ever made!!
Best goaltender since Patrick Roy, beats out the President trophy Washington Caps, then the defending champ Pens, delivers 8 home playoff gates and is traded for two mediocre prospects.
This is shameful to say the least, Gauthier should be drawn and quartered.
Watch how much better St Louis will become for it.

MindzEye
06-18-2010, 02:29 AM
http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/20/thenilold1bv.jpg

Habsy
06-18-2010, 02:31 AM
joining Turco in the free-agent waters July 1 could be Evgeni Nabokov, Martin Biron, Dan Ellis, Michael Leighton, Chris Mason, Jose Theodore, Antero Niittymaki, Vesa Toskala, Johan Hedberg, Patrick Lalime, Manny Legace, Wade Dubielewicz, Alex Auld, Steve Valiquette, Andrew Raycroft, Yann Danis and Curtis Sanford.

All available in 2 weeks.

Knee-jerk reactions are annoying.

MindzEye
06-18-2010, 03:05 AM
2010 SV%'s (2009)

Halak - .923 (.915)
Turco - .913 (.898)
Nabokov - .922 (.910)
Biron - .896 (.915)
Dan Ellis - .909 (.900)
Michael Leighton - .905 (.901)
Chris Mason - .913 (.916)
Jose Theodore - .911 (.900)
Antero Niittymaki - .909 (.912)
Vesa Toskala - .880 (.891)
Johan Hedberg - .915 (.886)
Patrick Lalime - .907 (.900)
Manny Legace - .907 (.885)
Wade Dubielewicz - (no, just no..dude played more in Russia than in NA)
Alex Auld - .895 (.911)
Steve Valiquette - (21 games in the last 2 years)
Andrew Raycroft - .911 (.892)
Yann Danis - .923 (.911)
Curtis Sanford - .906 (.896)


It's not at all a knee jerk reaction to realize that you're not finding anything resembling a replacement for Halak in this list, unless if you're looking to spend 2-3+ million dollars, in which case, just keep Halak.

Your roster took a big hit today. A major reason Montreal made the playoffs was the strong play of Halak, and he's now gone for a player who may start the season in Hamilton and even if he plays a significant amount of time for the big club, may not make much of an impact at all. Definitely no more than a player like Moore would make.

Habspatrol
06-18-2010, 06:40 AM
Montreals biggest issue is this...........they finished 5th worst in the league in goals for, and Halak was the main reason they were able to just sneak into the playoffs at all.

Even if Price plays up to his potential, the odds are pretty slim that Montreal will get the level of play they received from Price + Halak last year, from a combo of Price and a back up.........so they`re going to need ostensibly the identical offense, to produce significantly better, just to be able to sneak into the playoffs again, let alone make a conference final again.

I'm not using injuries as an excuse for this year's 8th place finish, however you have to assume we will be a bit luckier next year. If our top guys play as many games as they usually play we will be in a much better position. If we keep Plekanec or replace him with someone comparable then we will be just fine offensively. They should be around the middle of the pack IMO.

I fully expect Price to put up good numbers. Something in the .915-.920 range with the possibility of higher. I have no statistical basis for that prediction, just a gut feeling.

UWHabs
06-18-2010, 09:41 AM
I don't know why you guys are looking at pre-draft reports on a guy like Eller.

It's been a long time since he was drafted - and while he's an interesting prospect, his stock has certainly dropped considerably since draft day.

Where do you read that? Not counting in the last day since he got traded to Montreal, what leads you to believe his stock has dropped since he was a mid-1st round pick?

corksens
06-18-2010, 09:52 AM
Halak is the single greatest reason why the Habs a) made the playoffs, and b) won two rounds.

Unless Price preforms at a .920% click, this is a bad trade.

Artnes
06-18-2010, 09:54 AM
From Strickland:


For Montreal fans out there, Lars Eller is a nice looking prospect who should play in the NHL next season. He`s a good carácter guy with rgood speed and good skill. Can he be a top six guy? That`s the big question. He´s not a teriffic playmaker, if he shows a a little more creativity with his teammates he`ll have a stronger chance to be a top six forward. There are times he will try to do a little too much on his own wich to me isn`t always a bad thing but he needs to be stronger at using his teammates. He can score but I would not consider him a great finisher.

leaffan2005
06-18-2010, 09:59 AM
Sounds like Jonas Hoglund.

Congrats Habs fans.

PlayerToBeNamedLater
06-18-2010, 10:47 AM
Halak vs Toronto:
09/10: 4 gms, 914 SV%
08/09: 4 gms, 923 SV%
08-10: 8 gms, 919 SV%

Price vs Toronto:
09/10: 2 gms, 922 SV%
08/09: 2 gms, 866 SV%
08-10: 4 gms, 893 SV%

hockeylover
06-18-2010, 12:09 PM
FriedmanHNIC Reports say Chris Mason asked for 3 years, $11.25 million from St. Louis. Blues decided to commit that money to someone who was 25, not 34.

JaysCyYoung
06-18-2010, 12:11 PM
From Strickland:

Strickland's way off if that's the case. Eller's entire offensive game is based around his ability to make plays. He doesn't possess a score-first mentality, and that has been evident for years. There's a reason he had twice as many assists as goals this past season in Peoria and it's certainly not because he suddenly morphed into primarily a play-making centre.

number17
06-18-2010, 12:17 PM
After giving it some more thoughts, I can see why the Habs traded away Halak. I don't necessarily agree with it still, but I can see ...

1. Price and Halak are both RFA's, both are due for a major salary increase. The Habs, like all teams, have limited cap space, and it'll be foolish to commit major $$ to 2 goalies and sit $3 or $4M on the bench every single game.

2. Though Halak has been better, Price has the size advantage, and has the POTENTIAL to be a better goalie than Halak.

3. Halak will fetch more $$ in RFA negotiation, because of the great playoff he had.

I agree MTL had to ship 1 goalie, and if you take them both as equal, shipping away the one who will fetch more $$ makes sense. I can at least agree with that.

However, I don't agree the 2 goalies are equal. Price, while showing flashes of brilliance at times, has been the inferior goalie of the 2. Halak has posted very solid # at every level, and including the playoff. I am convinced Halak is the real deal, and I'd keep him, not Price.

I also don't agree with the timing. Yes, I understand some UFA goalies will hit the market in 2 weeks time, but I also think Halak or even Price would be near the top of the list among all goalies available. They're young, they've posted better numbers than most goalies available, and one has that "5th overall pick" potential to him, the other is coming off a phenomenal playoff run. These 2 goalies have their appeal, so if this is the best package available now, I'd rather wait.

Now, I don't think Eller is Hoglung II ... Eller is still a good prospect, but he's taken a pretty long time to develop, even if you give him the "european player adjusting to NA" mulligan. I don't think he's a bust, but at this point there's just no guarantee he will be a top line player. He's looking more like a 2nd liner, or a very good 3rd liner at this point. All that can change, but I was thinking you trade away arguably the best performing goalie in last year's playoff, who's only 25 btw, you'd get more.

JaysCyYoung
06-18-2010, 12:20 PM
Eller has not taken a long time to develop relative to other mid-first round picks. At all. This is a serious misconception.

PlayerToBeNamedLater
06-18-2010, 12:25 PM
I also don't agree with the timing. Yes, I understand some UFA goalies will hit the market in 2 weeks time, but I also think Halak or even Price would be near the top of the list among all goalies available. They're young, they've posted better numbers than most goalies available, and one has that "5th overall pick" potential to him, the other is coming off a phenomenal playoff run. These 2 goalies have their appeal, so if this is the best package available now, I'd rather wait.



The problem is, there isn't a big market for goalies. There are only a few teams who need a starter and only a few of those teams can afford to pay Halak about 4 mill a year.

If the Habs waited, these teams with positions to fill wouldn't wait for the Habs. They will just trade or sign someone else. Goalies aren't that hard to find.

I think Montreal had to act quick to maximize value. I don't agree with their choice of goalie though.

Habsy
06-18-2010, 12:43 PM
This was a cap space deal. The Habs have none. Price will cost half of what Halak will and he will give the Habs .910-.915 goaltending. The Habs will be forced to improve up front which they should have done long ago.

The Blues have $30M in cap space, they can easily afford to pay Halak what he wants.

The Habs have done so poorly in first round drafting that Eller becomes our #1 forward prospect instantly.

The Habs do not have enough grit, Schultz is a tough SOB that can actually skate and contribute on the score sheet. He gives us something that we are currently missing in our system as well.

Considering the myriad of goalies available come July 1, the Blues paid to get the guy that will save 1% more shots. Taken into context, the return is not terrible.

leafman101
06-18-2010, 01:24 PM
The problem is, there isn't a big market for goalies. There are only a few teams who need a starter and only a few of those teams can afford to pay Halak about 4 mill a year.

If the Habs waited, these teams with positions to fill wouldn't wait for the Habs. They will just trade or sign someone else. Goalies aren't that hard to find.

I think Montreal had to act quick to maximize value. I don't agree with their choice of goalie though.

Sounds to me like Gauthier panicked when the rumours about Mason being close to resigning were circulating the last few days (probably floated out by the Blues in retrospect).

The Habs should have waited till the draft. Like Burke said about Kaberle, teams won't offer their best offers till closer to the draft. No reason its any different for Halak.

This offer wasn't so good that he had to snap it up now.

number17
06-18-2010, 02:13 PM
I understand not every team needs a goalie, but then again, I'd think at that price, a few other teams would be interested to upgrade their goaltending.

I dunno. The goalie market changes every year and if the goalie market is really that cold this summer, then I guess sucks for the habs to have to trade Halak this year.

hockeylover
06-18-2010, 02:18 PM
walsha (Halak's agent) Someone sent this to me...brilliant. Disclaimer: I do not endorse the content!

YouTube- Virgin 96- Halak Trade

MyNameIsJonas
06-18-2010, 02:22 PM
There is scuttlebutt that the sharks were dangling setoguchi or clowe for Halak.

Guess this really was ca "cap" trade.

hockeylover
06-18-2010, 02:25 PM
Corey Hirsch is officially St Louis' new goaltending coach.

ToanVu
06-18-2010, 03:07 PM
walsha (Halak's agent) Someone sent this to me...brilliant. Disclaimer: I do not endorse the content!

YouTube- Virgin 96- Halak Trade (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyJOtTIPIYQ)

:lol

Hoss
06-18-2010, 03:18 PM
This is what some guy at Hockeybuzz thought would be a fair deal for Halak

brad boyes, rights to paul karyia and there first....thats what i want

And you guys say my trade proposals are crazy

leafman101
06-18-2010, 03:19 PM
I was thinking Boyes and a 1st when I first heard Halak was dealt to St. Louis.

And to be honest that would still be a great deal for the Blues.

Montana
06-18-2010, 03:28 PM
If I'm Gauthier one of the prerequisites of making a deal with the Blues or Sharks would have been to make them take money back in a deal.


Blues have tons of cap space, make them take Hamrlik or Kostitsyn back in a deal. (or something....Spacek even.....buy yourself some breathing room)


Or deal him to the Sharks for Setoguchi, but make them take Kostitsyn back in the deal to offset the cost of Seto...

axlsalinger
06-18-2010, 03:55 PM
The more I think about this, the better the trade looks for the Blues. Especially when you take into consideration Mason's demands and age.

number17
06-18-2010, 03:58 PM
I think a fair deal for MTL would be Boyes OR the Blues' 1st round pick.

But the market dictates what you get, and if this is the best MTL can get, then this is the best they can get.

leafman101
06-18-2010, 04:02 PM
A shrewd GM could have gotten more IMO. This might have been the best offer on the table right now, but Gauthier should have played hard ball.

Unfortunately for the Habs, JD and Pleau are two of the shrewdest around.

leafman101
06-18-2010, 04:03 PM
In all honesty, if I were a GM I don't think I'd trade with St. Louis period. They very rarely make deals, and when they do they always seem to get the upper hand (Stempniak, Halak, Tkachuk, MacDonald etc.).

BG
06-18-2010, 04:05 PM
With the sheer number of available goaltenders available this summer, and the fact that Minnesota is also currently offering Harding around - I think MTL probably got the best deal they could negotiate before the draft (and July 1st).

So rather than try to hit a home-run, I think they were happy to get reasonable value.

They also got him far, far away from Montreal - and managed to put Halak in a very good goaltending position on a good young team.

WIN-WIN.

Habsy
06-18-2010, 05:21 PM
Hey, it's not like we got Raycroft in return....

PlayerToBeNamedLater
06-18-2010, 05:28 PM
or Toskala

Habsy
06-18-2010, 08:07 PM
For you prospect geeks out there...

Do you see Eller developing into a 25/60 player?

JaysCyYoung
06-18-2010, 08:12 PM
Yes.

Montana
06-18-2010, 08:13 PM
For you prospect geeks out there...

Do you see Eller developing into a 25/60 player?


That might be a little higher than what I expect him to produce most seasons...but 20/50 should be pretty attainable for him on a consistent basis in another year or two.

hockeylover
06-18-2010, 08:15 PM
For you prospect geeks out there...

Do you see Eller developing into a 25/60 player?

Yep.

habs25th
06-18-2010, 08:19 PM
A bigger Plekanec would be my expectations toward Eller, his defensive game seems to be highly-touted from what I gathered.

habs25th
06-18-2010, 08:22 PM
Plekanec at 20, first year in North America, on a much better team than Peoria.

77 gms 19 goals 27 assists 46 points.

Edge to Eller so far.

Montana
06-18-2010, 08:23 PM
A bigger Plekanec would be my expectations toward Eller, his defensive game seems to be highly-touted from what I gathered.


His defensive game is definitely one of his strong points, and he's a pass first player like Plekanec, but I don't see him having 29g, 70pt potential in him. (Then again, none of us saw it in Plekanec either.)


I bigger, stronger Plekanec-lite (if that isn't too much of an oxymoron) would be a fair assessment though.

Montana
06-18-2010, 08:24 PM
Plekanec at 20, first year in North America, on a much better team than Peoria.

77 gms 19 goals 27 assists 46 points.

Edge to Eller so far.


Tlusty had them both beat.......lucky Carolina.

habs25th
06-18-2010, 08:27 PM
His defensive game is definitely one of his strong points, and he's a pass first player like Plekanec, but I don't see him having 29g, 70pt potential in him. (Then again, none of us saw it in Plekanec either.)


I bigger, stronger Plekanec-lite (if that isn't too much of an oxymoron) would be a fair assessment though.

Why don't you? Oh right because of the 6 games you saw him play 2 and a half years ago on the worst international junior team in the world where he did very good for an 18 years old, riiight.

Honestly, he might top off at 50 points, or 80, it remains to be seen.

Montana
06-18-2010, 08:32 PM
Why don't you? Oh right because of the 6 games you saw him play 2 and a half years ago on the worst international junior team in the world where he did very good for an 18 years old, riiight.


...as well as following scouting reports the last 3 years, and having friends who live in Sweden and follow the SEL like Jays and Irish follow the OHL.


So yes, I feel I have a better feel for his game and his upside than some random hermaphrodite, that can't tell his dick from his vageen.

habs25th
06-18-2010, 08:33 PM
Tlusty had them both beat.......lucky Carolina.

Tlusty isn't a very good comparable, in his 20 years old AHL campaign it was his 3rd year in North America. He also had a bit of NHL experience under his belt.


Andrei Kostitsyn in the AHL

(19-20, first year in NA) 66 games, 12 goals 11 assists 23 points
(20-21) 64 games, 18 goals, 29 assists, 47 points.

Habsy
06-18-2010, 08:33 PM
I prefer realism.

Schultz is by no means ensured to even make the NHL and Eller seems to be a good skater with high defensive awareness already. He is also touted as a disciplined player. He will make the NHL. What he does after that is really up in the air but I do think he can develop into a 25/60 player.

Habsy
06-18-2010, 08:34 PM
In reality Montana, you really don't know much about Eller. Be truthful.

Montana
06-18-2010, 08:36 PM
Eller seems to be a good skater with high defensive awareness already. He is also touted as a disciplined player. He will make the NHL.


Without a doubt he will.........the worst he could even be, imo, is a strong 3rd liner, who could eat up plenty of PK minutes for you.

He's an incredibly safe prospect.

Montana
06-18-2010, 08:38 PM
In reality Montana, you really don't know much about Eller. Be truthful.


If you want to believe that, feel free....you're the one that came and asked for an opinion on a player from those that know better.

I do, so I offered it up......if you don't like it, or don't want it.....feel free to take advice from those that know nothing of him, or even know anyone who's watched him before, but will tell you what you want to hear, ask habs25th.....he's more than willing to serve up his uniformed advice.


It's really no sweat off my sac, either way.

habs25th
06-18-2010, 08:40 PM
...as well as following scouting reports the last 3 years, and having friends who live in Sweden and follow the SEL like Jays and Irish follow the OHL.


Yeah, you still have only seen him play 6 games 2 and a half years ago... No clue whatsoever.

Habsy
06-18-2010, 08:41 PM
I've seen him play in the U-18 too but players progress.

Either way, I am not that dissatisfied with the trade. There is nothing I can do about it anyway.

Montana
06-18-2010, 08:46 PM
I've seen him play in the U-18 too but players progress.

Hence the benefit of knowing people who watched him a ton in the SEL.....

habs25th
06-18-2010, 08:54 PM
Mikko Koivu, first year in the AHL, 21 years old.

67 games 20 goals, 28 assists, 48 points.

habs25th
06-18-2010, 09:00 PM
Loui Eriksson, first year in the AHL, 20 years old.

78 games, 31 goals, 29 assists, 60 points.

habs25th
06-18-2010, 09:04 PM
I honestly am yet to find a player who played his first year in North America as a 20 years old having a better pace in the AHL than Eller.

hockeylover
06-18-2010, 09:05 PM
How about you just stop then and give us a prediction for this year?

habs25th
06-18-2010, 09:09 PM
How about you just stop then and give us a prediction for this year?

I think he'll play in the NHL, but I'll give a prediction for either league.

NHL: 82 games, 20 goals, 25 assists 45 points
AHL: 82 games, 30 goals, 50 assists, 80 points

MindzEye
06-18-2010, 09:52 PM
So for a player who's upside is supposed to be that of a good 2nd line centre, you're expecting rookie season production in line with that of a decent 2nd line centre?

Habsy
06-18-2010, 10:06 PM
If he plays in the NHL, which I believe he will considering it looks like Moore won't be re-signed, he will play third line minutes.

Considering his linemates will likely be Moen and Lapierre I would put him at 15 goals 35 points.

Montana
06-18-2010, 10:13 PM
15 goals his rookie year is probably closer to what he'd be capable of in a 2nd line role as a rookie.

Playing on the third line, that might be a bit tough.

Habsy
06-18-2010, 10:14 PM
He'll get spot duty on the top two lines when Pouliot and Kostitsyn suck shit again.

Isaac25
06-18-2010, 10:15 PM
perhaps habs25th is thinking that we will not sign Pleks and Eller plays as our #2 pivot...I see him on the 3rd unit next year as it looks right now. I like everything I hear about this kid and we really needed to secure more potential top 6 young talent.

Habsy
06-18-2010, 10:18 PM
I just do not see the Habs letting Plekanec go. We have nobody else.

Eller is not even close to Plekanec at either end of the ice.

Habspatrol
06-18-2010, 10:22 PM
I think a fair deal for MTL would be Boyes OR the Blues' 1st round pick.

But the market dictates what you get, and if this is the best MTL can get, then this is the best they can get.

I am happier with Eller ans Schultz than I would have been with Boyes straight up. Boyes is very one dimensional and he couldn't even score last year.

Habspatrol
06-18-2010, 10:29 PM
I'll predict 17 goals and 39 points for Eller this season if he plays in the NHL.

Habspatrol
06-18-2010, 10:33 PM
As for Montana and his comments about Eller, I take him at his word. I've discussed prospects with him in at least 3 sports and he's always been very honest about what he knows and doesn't know about players. I've seen him fully admit knowing very little about some pretty highly touted prospects and also give very good insight on lesser known players. If he claims to have a significant knowledge of a player you can believe it.

That said, obviously even the best scouts in the world aren't right about a players future production or role all the time. So just cause he doesn't see Eller as a 30 goal scorer doesn't mean that he can't be.

habs25th
06-18-2010, 10:54 PM
perhaps habs25th is thinking that we will not sign Pleks and Eller plays as our #2 pivot...I see him on the 3rd unit next year as it looks right now. I like everything I hear about this kid and we really needed to secure more potential top 6 young talent.

I think he'll get time on the top 2 lines, as a winger.

Pouliot isn't guaranteed a top 6 spot at all, and AK should be on a short leash.

45 points is by no mean an amazing feat, anyway, just solid for a rookie.

habs25th
06-18-2010, 10:57 PM
As for Montana and his comments about Eller, I take him at his word. I've discussed prospects with him in at least 3 sports and he's always been very honest about what he knows and doesn't know about players. I've seen him fully admit knowing very little about some pretty highly touted prospects and also give very good insight on lesser known players. If he claims to have a significant knowledge of a player you can believe it.

That said, obviously even the best scouts in the world aren't right about a players future production or role all the time. So just cause he doesn't see Eller as a 30 goal scorer doesn't mean that he can't be.

He's been very honest in saying that he's seen him 6 times 2 and a half years ago, and has friend who might or might not know a great deal about hockey follow the league he was playing in, nothing to be as categorical as he is about his ceiling.

As I said, I'm yet to find a 20 year old (or older) AHL and North American rookie having better AHL stats than him.

Metalleaf
06-18-2010, 10:57 PM
Considering Duchene got 55 as a rookie and he's up for the Calder, I'd 45 points isn't too bad for a rookie.

hockeylover
06-18-2010, 10:58 PM
45 is a pretty darn good rookie year - only three did that this year: Tavares, Duchene, Myers.

habs25th
06-18-2010, 11:00 PM
Considering Duchene got 55 as a rookie and he's up for the Calder, I'd 45 points isn't too bad for a rookie.

But Duchene was an 18 years old, Eller will be 21.

Ryder got 63 points as a 23 years old rook, no one would say he had a more impressive rookie campaign than Duchene.

hockeylover
06-18-2010, 11:03 PM
But Duchene was an 18 years old, Eller will be 21.

I don't think it's impossible, just pointing out that 45 points is pretty damn good considering only three rookies did it this year - there were a couple pretty highly thought of 21 year olds that couldn't crack it.

Montana
06-18-2010, 11:05 PM
He's been very honest in saying that he's seen him 6 times 2 and a half years ago, and has friend who might or might not know a great deal about hockey follow the league he was playing in, nothing to be as categorical as he is about his ceiling.



As opposed to you, who just learned he existed 24 hours ago, and are proclaiming him the next Plekanec, and someone who'll score 20goals and rack up 45 points as a rookie.



Classic.

habs25th
06-18-2010, 11:08 PM
As opposed to you, who just learned he existed 24 hours ago, and are proclaiming him the next Plekanec, and someone who'll score 20goals and rack up 45 points as a rookie.



Classic.

I've known about his existence since before he was drafted, tyvm.

As for comparing him to Plekanec, numbers agree with me, so far. We'll see.

I just think his AHL numbers get really underrated, what he did last year was nothing less than impressive.

Montana
06-18-2010, 11:09 PM
45 is a pretty darn good rookie year - only three did that this year: Tavares, Duchene, Myers.


And Tavares and Duchene played 18 minutes a night, with significant time on the PP.


James Van Riemsdyke for instance, played 13 minutes a night as a rookie (around what I suspect Eller will see), and was one of the more highly regarded prospects heading into the season, and he was only able to rack up 15 goals and 35 points, as a 20 year old.


20-45 would be one hell of an accomplishment for Eller.....I suspect that'd even blow Gauthiers expectations out of the water.

Habspatrol
06-18-2010, 11:12 PM
He's been very honest in saying that he's seen him 6 times 2 and a half years ago, and has friend who might or might not know a great deal about hockey follow the league he was playing in, nothing to be as categorical as he is about his ceiling.

As I said, I'm yet to find a 20 year old (or older) AHL and North American rookie having better AHL stats than him.

Big deal... there are a lot of prospects I have never seen play, but I read a lot about prospects and likely know more about them than the average person on this board. I recall reading a lot about Eller in his draft year and I also recall him being one of the player that I was hoping would fall to the Habs.

habs25th
06-18-2010, 11:13 PM
I don't think it's impossible, just pointing out that 45 points is pretty damn good considering only three rookies did it this year - there were a couple pretty highly thought of 21 year olds that couldn't crack it.

I don't think this year was a great one for rookies. Looking in past years there's been more rookies getting 40+ points, and not necessarily superstars.

I remember before Kulemin came to the Leafs most here predicted 40 points or so. Well Eller has some NA experience as opposed to Kulemin, and looking at our lineup I see a solid opportunity for him to play with one of Gomez or Plekanec, which shoud help his totals.

We'll see.

hockeylover
06-18-2010, 11:15 PM
I remember before Kulemin came to the Leafs most here predicted 40 points or so. Well Eller has some NA experience as opposed to Kulemin, and looking at our lineup I see a solid opportunity for him to play with one of Gomez or Plekanec, which shoud help his totals.

Wait, wha... why would you use Kulemin as an example? He didn't end up getting 40 points.

habs25th
06-18-2010, 11:17 PM
And Tavares and Duchene played 18 minutes a night, with significant time on the PP.


James Van Riemsdyke for instance, played 13 minutes a night as a rookie (around what I suspect Eller will see), and was one of the more highly regarded prospects heading into the season, and he was only able to rack up 15 goals and 35 points, as a 20 year old.


20-45 would be one hell of an accomplishment for Eller.....I suspect that'd even blow Gauthiers expectations out of the water.

Difference is the Flyers have tremendous depth offensively, probably the best in the league, we on the other hand at this time have an enigmatic russian and a guy that hasn't proven much so far pegged in our top 6. As any years there will be a lot of promotions and demotions in our lineup, assuming things go well for Eller he could be the one benifitting from this turmoil.

Being responsible defensively will certainly not go unnoticed on a team coached by Martin.

habs25th
06-18-2010, 11:22 PM
Wait, wha... why would you use Kulemin as an example? He didn't end up getting 40 points.

The point is, assuming you guys know what you're talking about, if you thought Kulemin could get 40 points playing with guys like Grabovski and Stajan then surely you wouldn't think it's a stretch that Eller get 45 playing with better players.

hockeylover
06-18-2010, 11:25 PM
The point is, assuming you guys know what you're talking about, if you thought Kulemin could get 40 points playing with guys like Grabovski and Stajan then surely you wouldn't think it's a stretch that Eller get 45 playing with better players.

... but he didn't do it... why use a prediction that didn't turn out?

And the only thing I'm really taking exception to here is the '45 points is nothing special' thing. That's a darn good rookie year I think.

habs25th
06-18-2010, 11:29 PM
He's considerably better than Tlusty defensively....he's more like the Danish Nikolai Kulemin.


I suspect he'll have a pretty similar impact on the Canadiens this year, as Nik had for us this past season....

something along the lines of......82gp, 15g, 40pts

In this very thread Montana.

But I'm a complete nutcase...

habs25th
06-18-2010, 11:31 PM
... but he didn't do it... why use a prediction that didn't turn out?

And the only thing I'm really taking exception to here is the '45 points is nothing special' thing. That's a darn good rookie year I think.

For a 21 years old, it's solid, but nothing exceptionnal. It often depends on the kind of opportunity you get, on our team I think he has a good one.

hockeylover
06-18-2010, 11:33 PM
In this very thread Montana.

But I'm a complete nutcase...

Uhhh. Don't think anyone said you were a nutcase... think people are surprised you seem to be implying that your prediction is low or something. 45 points is pretty darn good.

habs25th
06-18-2010, 11:36 PM
As opposed to you, who just learned he existed 24 hours ago, and are proclaiming him the next Plekanec, and someone who'll score 20goals and rack up 45 points as a rookie.



Classic.

This post make it seems like I'm a nutcase to think he'll get 45 points, despite him saying a few pages earlier that he'd probably get 40.

Montana
06-18-2010, 11:45 PM
This post make it seems like I'm a nutcase to think he'll get 45 points, despite him saying a few pages earlier that he'd probably get 40.

I think you're a nutcase for a variety of reasons, most of which have very little to do with this thread, or Lars Eller.

I think you're a nutcase in respect to Lars Eller, for believing he's capable of being a 29 goal, 70 pt player like Plekanec.


I don't think you're a nutcase for believing he'll get 20-45 playing on the second line in Montreal......I just think you're wrong.

Eller is more of a play maker than a goal scorer, so if he plays on the second line 15 goals is about what he'd top out at.....(as would 40pts in all likelyhood)

Mind you I'm probably more bullish on him than I should be, simply because I own his rights in my dynasty league, so I'm hoping for the best.


If he plays on the third line, as some suspect......we're both probably being too optimistic.



Comparing him to two other prospects I own, and have followed closely in their early years, I'd be pleasantly surprised if he surpassed-matched what Giroux, or Berglund did in their first full go arounds in the NHL.....

UWHabs
06-18-2010, 11:51 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if he paced out to 40-45, but being a kid, he'll surely be benched now and then. My guess is he'll play mostly 3rd line minutes, get some PP time, shift up to the top 2 lines if other players get hurt.

45 is tough for rookies to get, but some do reach it. This last year was low, but the 3 or 4 years before that we've hit 5-6 guys with 45 points, and some others pace out that far. It might be optimistic, but it really depends what else we do where he ends up, and if he clicks. Maybe he find a great spot on the wing with Gomez and Gionta, maybe he doesn't click with anyone and ends up in 3rd or 4th line duties, like a Latendresse for us.

habs25th
06-19-2010, 12:01 AM
You can't help but to make it personnal can you? Maybe I'd have a good comeback if I remembered any posts you made before we got in this debate. I guess the fact that your convictions are so weak (making fun of me for saying he'd get 45 points when you yourself said he'd get 40) make it hard to remember you.

That said,


Eller is more of a play maker than a goal scorer, so if he plays on the second line 15 goals is about what he'd top out at.....(as would 40pts in all likelyhood)

Maybe that's true, myself I care more about points totals than goals and assists. 45 points is the prediction, 20 goals is more of an arbitrary number i put up so it'd add up to 45 points. I also only use round numbers when making a prediction, saying for example he'd get 18 goals and 29 assists for 47 points would only further make me look like a douchebag who thinks he knows it all.

habs25th
06-19-2010, 12:03 AM
BTW JCY don't use round numbers.

Montana
06-19-2010, 12:04 AM
would only further make me look like a douchebag who thinks he knows it all.


...at least you realize that's how you come off.

JaysCyYoung
06-19-2010, 12:05 AM
BTW JCY don't use round numbers.

Hmmmmmm?

habs25th
06-19-2010, 12:09 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if he paced out to 40-45, but being a kid, he'll surely be benched now and then. My guess is he'll play mostly 3rd line minutes, get some PP time, shift up to the top 2 lines if other players get hurt.

45 is tough for rookies to get, but some do reach it. This last year was low, but the 3 or 4 years before that we've hit 5-6 guys with 45 points, and some others pace out that far. It might be optimistic, but it really depends what else we do where he ends up, and if he clicks. Maybe he find a great spot on the wing with Gomez and Gionta, maybe he doesn't click with anyone and ends up in 3rd or 4th line duties, like a Latendresse for us.

I really doubt after trading the franchise player for this guy Martin buries him on the third line. Similarly to Pouliot my best guess is he'll get every opportunity to showcase his talent. If he fail to impress then he might have to fight with Pouliot for the spot, and maybe get confined to defensive duties or who know maybe even get sent down.

habs25th
06-19-2010, 12:09 AM
Hmmmmmm?

I kid I kid.

habs25th
06-19-2010, 12:11 AM
...at least you realize that's how you come off.

Yup, now it's your turn to look into a mirror and do some soul searching.

JaysCyYoung
06-19-2010, 12:11 AM
I don't use round numbers because it's more fun to try and predict things more accurately. Plus I happen to be more detail-oriented by nature, so it's not a matter of trying to be a know-it-all or show anybody up. *shrugs*

And guys can we not ruin what's been a great thread so far with the personal comments?

number17
06-19-2010, 12:59 AM
Tlusty had them both beat.......lucky Carolina.Yes, but to be fair, Tlusty seems very one-dimensional, and he just isn't dangerous enough offensively as a 1-dimensional player for most teams.

I don't mean to beat the dead horse again, but that is Tlusty's problem. Eller seems to be a very good defensive player with size and plays a very all round game. The only question is whether he can develop his offensive game in the NHL to be a top line player.

Even if Eller hits the ceiling at 20-25G, 45-50Pts, he can still be a better player than Tlusty being a 35G 55Pts 1-dimensional player.

habs25th
06-19-2010, 01:30 AM
I challenge anyone here to find an european who came over to North America as a 20 years old or older that had a better AHL pace than Eller, in the last 10-15 years or so.

Not trying to prove a point I just want to know if one exists, cause I haven't found any yet. Promising.

habs25th
06-19-2010, 01:40 AM
Filpulla as a 21 years old got 70 points in 74 games, that said he was the 5th leading scorer on his team but whatever.

That makes one.

MindzEye
06-19-2010, 03:02 AM
Because you've set a ridiculous standard (because frankly, most top European's who come over, go straight into the the NHL) this is everyone who is a similar enough comparison to be useful, that was as good or better offensively than Eller as a 20-21 yr old in the AHL

Filpulla
Eriksson (Eller beats him by a few points, but Eriksson was a much more prolific goal scorer)
Miko Koivu had a similar overall offensive impact (again, less points, more goals)
Afinogenov
Prospal
Tlusty
Vanek
Krejci
Elias
Vrbata
Handzus
Nielsen
S Kostitsyn
Samsonov (IHL, but so what)
Anisimov
S Kozlov


I quit when I got to guys who scored 25 points or less last season.


If you want to pretend that a Scandanavian being a "north american rookie" is somehow important, run with it, but language is typically the biggest reason that euro kids (mostly eastern euros) have an adjustment period to north america. Eller speaks fluent english and has for quite a few years already. Speaking fluent english already, and playing in the SEL before coming to North America put him in a far better position to succeed that the eastern euro kids who played a year or two of CHL hockey before hitting the AHL.

habs25th
06-19-2010, 08:25 AM
Because you've set a ridiculous standard (because frankly, most top European's who come over, go straight into the the NHL) this is everyone who is a similar enough comparison to be useful, that was as good or better offensively than Eller as a 20-21 yr old in the AHL

Filpulla
Eriksson (Eller beats him by a few points, but Eriksson was a much more prolific goal scorer)
Miko Koivu had a similar overall offensive impact (again, less points, more goals)
Afinogenov
Prospal
Tlusty
Vanek
Krejci
Elias
Vrbata
Handzus
Nielsen
S Kostitsyn
Samsonov (IHL, but so what)
Anisimov
S Kozlov


I quit when I got to guys who scored 25 points or less last season.


If you want to pretend that a Scandanavian being a "north american rookie" is somehow important, run with it, but language is typically the biggest reason that euro kids (mostly eastern euros) have an adjustment period to north america. Eller speaks fluent english and has for quite a few years already. Speaking fluent english already, and playing in the SEL before coming to North America put him in a far better position to succeed that the eastern euro kids who played a year or two of CHL hockey before hitting the AHL.

I disagree, europeans who've played their junior in North America or 1 or 2 seasons in the AHL typically have better numbers in ther AHL 20 years old campaign. Why? Smaller ice surface, level of physical contact, most importantly the way the game is played.

Most of the guys you named did not fit the standards.

The ones I accept are Filpulla, Elias, Kozlov, Handzus.

Some of them either played junior, weren't AHL rookies or simply played such a small number of games that it doesn't really matter.

No matter how you look at it, Eller is in good company.

I guess that exercise was mostly because of N17's remark that his "low point production" as a 20 years old rookie is somehow a sign that he can't be a top liner, way way wrong. In fact, going by his production versus similar players, I'd say that his production is more of a sign that he CAN be a top liner than the other way around.

leafman101
06-19-2010, 08:38 AM
Non top line production can never be a sign of top line potential. That makes no sense.

If anything the argument would go that because Eller was a NA rookie, his shit stats don't necessarily mean he can't put up top line production, maybe.

And yeah, when you take away all of the good players, then his stats don't look so bad.

Bleedsblue&white
06-19-2010, 08:57 AM
This sort of depends on how much faith habsfans put on their scouts and mnmngt. Halak SHOULD be worth something, so if you have faith, you should assume the Habs got something worthwhile back.
If on the other hand you think they're incompetent...

number17
06-19-2010, 09:11 AM
And just to clarify, I didn't say this about Eller just because he's now been traded to the Habs.

I brought up Eller back in the middle of the season when we were talking about JFJ trades, and how they wrecked our organization. And I already noticed despite the Vesa trade being a terrible trade, I said back then we didn't give up too much because of Eller's development. He doesn't look like a top line player which everybody thought he'd be back then at the draft.

Isaac25
06-19-2010, 09:26 AM
it's a bit early to decide what kind of player Eller is going to be...He'll play in the league this year so we'll see for ourselves what kind of player he is and what kind of player he'll be down the road.

Habspatrol
06-19-2010, 09:39 AM
I think you're a nutcase for a variety of reasons, most of which have very little to do with this thread, or Lars Eller.

I think you're a nutcase in respect to Lars Eller, for believing he's capable of being a 29 goal, 70 pt player like Plekanec.


I don't think you're a nutcase for believing he'll get 20-45 playing on the second line in Montreal......I just think you're wrong.

Eller is more of a play maker than a goal scorer, so if he plays on the second line 15 goals is about what he'd top out at.....(as would 40pts in all likelyhood)

Mind you I'm probably more bullish on him than I should be, simply because I own his rights in my dynasty league, so I'm hoping for the best.


If he plays on the third line, as some suspect......we're both probably being too optimistic.



Comparing him to two other prospects I own, and have followed closely in their early years, I'd be pleasantly surprised if he surpassed-matched what Giroux, or Berglund did in their first full go arounds in the NHL.....

To be fair Pleks is much more of a playmaker too though. Although with him it seems to be more of a mentality than an ability thing. He really does have an excellent shot and could probably score 40 if he pulled a Crosby and focused more on trying to score goals.


BTW... you don't own Berglund anymore... if you want we could reverse that trade though. Doughty is definitely welcome back to my team.

That one still stings... bad. :facepalm

Montana
06-19-2010, 01:03 PM
Since I have both Price and Eller, I suspect we'll be having some trade talks between now and the start of the season.

Habspatrol
06-19-2010, 01:10 PM
I think you're right.... but I doubt we will come to an agreement... as per usual.

GGpX
06-19-2010, 01:14 PM
Real_ESPNLeBrun Hamhuis's rights traded to Philly for Ryan Parent. Flyers now have 12 days to sign Hamhuis before he's UFA. Interesting.

Metalleaf
06-19-2010, 01:53 PM
Flyers need to trade someone(a vet) in order to sign Hamhuis, according to Kevin Allen.

JaysCyYoung
06-19-2010, 01:59 PM
Could that spell the end of the Matt Carle era in Philadelphia, or would they be looking at moving a body like Coburn instead?

Pronger - Timonen
Hamhuis - Coburn
Krajicek - Bartulis/Syvret

zeke
06-19-2010, 02:12 PM
Giguere for Briere+.

do it.

Montana
06-19-2010, 02:16 PM
Flyers also dealt a conditional 7th round pick to Nashville, along with Parent.

number17
06-19-2010, 02:58 PM
Giguere for Briere+.

do it.Briere + 1st round pick, maybe.

JSG has been a pretty good goalie since the trade, and he only has 1 more season left on his contract. Briere has a horrendous contract, despite his good playoff run I wouldn't trade positive value for him.

This is an interesting trade though. I think the Flyers realize they don't have the depth and quality on blueline to win it all. I know a lot of people are suspecting if Carle or Coburn is on the move, but I think this is a move to upgrade their blueline. I don't think Carle or Coburn are moving.

The flyers obviously need to move some big contracts up front. I don't know if they can actually move Briere ... and if they are making a run at the cup, I'm not sure they should move Briere neither. Briere was one of their best forwards in the playoff.

If they put either of JVR or Carter in play, it'll be very interesting. Too bad they already traded for Hamhuis (assuming they can sign him) ... and they have no use of Kaberle, our biggest trade bait.

LeafOfFaith
06-19-2010, 03:01 PM
If the Flyers think they're close to a championship, they're stupid.

This year was about the biggest fluke that could've happened with them. With Montreal taking out the top two seeds on the back of Halak, Philly had to face the worn out 8th seed in the East final to advance to the SC final.

If Pitts or Wash played up to par and survived, they'd have BLOWN Philly out of the water.

But I hope Philly thinks they're close, so that they trade us a guy like Carter (hopefully for less than Kabs).

leafman101
06-19-2010, 03:06 PM
Nah. Philly is a good team, especially with the addition of Hamhuis.

They are really deep up front. One of the deepest teams in the NHL, and they have a very, very good D.

Their goaltending just sucks.

They were favourites going into the year last year, and then made it to the final with an AHL goalie. They're close.

hockeylover
06-19-2010, 03:11 PM
JeffMarek

Nashville trades Jason Arnott to New Jersey for Matt Halischuk and a 2011 second-round pick

number17
06-19-2010, 03:11 PM
If the Flyers think they're close to a championship, they're stupid.

This year was about the biggest fluke that could've happened with them. With Montreal taking out the top two seeds on the back of Halak, Philly had to face the worn out 8th seed in the East final to advance to the SC final.

If Pitts or Wash played up to par and survived, they'd have BLOWN Philly out of the water.

But I hope Philly thinks they're close, so that they trade us a guy like Carter (hopefully for less than Kabs).100% agree.

The Flyers are stupid to think they are close, and they DO think they're close.

Now, to be fair, Hamhuis is a trade that's for the present, and also the future.

Pronger was the Flyers' best player in the playoff, and he was dominating, but he also has a closing window to play at that level. I can understand why the Flyers want to go for it NOW.

They need a goalie, and whether they take the UFA route or trade route, it's still gonna take some cap room.

What they do have, is offensive depth up front.

I believe some of JVR, Carter, Briere, Gagne, Giroux may be in play. It's gonna be an interesting summer in Philly.

Montana
06-19-2010, 03:14 PM
Nice deal for NJ.

Metalleaf
06-19-2010, 03:15 PM
I highly doubt that Giroux is available the Flyers are very high on him.

JaysCyYoung
06-19-2010, 03:15 PM
JeffMarek

Nashville trades Jason Arnott to New Jersey for Matt Halischuk and a 2011 second-round pick

That's a damn good trade for the Devils. They get a legitimate 65-70 point former Stanley Cup champion Devil back in the fold and don't give up that much of consequence in the process. Halischuk is a decent prospect but he's more of a budding third-liner and the second round pick is almost a third with New Jersey's track record. Could that possibly be a precursor to Kovy bolting and Lou is trying to shore up his offensive depth? It certainly makes them deeper down the middle with Zajac.

LeafOfFaith
06-19-2010, 03:16 PM
I love how Lou keeps repatriating his former players.

I can't think of any other example like him, except maybe how Keenan used to bring a select few players to each team he coached. Who was in his little harem again? Noonan, Matteau, and I think a couple of other guys.

zeke
06-19-2010, 03:16 PM
dammit. I wanted Arnott. crap.

hockeylover
06-19-2010, 03:17 PM
Word out of Anaheim has Ryan telling the media that he's not looking to become the highest paid Duck forward and his only stance is that he wants to remain in Anaheim.

LeafOfFaith
06-19-2010, 03:19 PM
Whatever, he's American anyway, and we have enough of those. Plus, he'd be too expensive.

Lots of other fish in the sea.

Staal, Carter, Sharp, Kovy. Burke could hit a home run this summer if he really wanted to.

leafman101
06-19-2010, 03:23 PM
I guess that means Jersey is out for Kovy.

Nice deal for them anyhow.

LeafOfFaith
06-19-2010, 03:25 PM
You think Lou would've ever given Kovy a 7 or 8 year deal at $8m or $9m per??

That was one of the bright spots about NJ getting him at the deadline. We knew he'd go UFA.

MyNameIsJonas
06-19-2010, 04:21 PM
Sily Ek thinks this is a precursosr to a Leafs/Flyers deal

Also, my TSN source claims Horton is down to Boston/Buffalo/Calgary/Toronto, and that once the Horton shoe falls then Sharp will go

hockeylover
06-19-2010, 04:54 PM
So. Sens fans planned a "Save Spezza" rally and not as many people showed up as expected. Actually, only 15 people showed up.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_e8K5j1xoTmQ/TB0iATqHzSI/AAAAAAAAC90/npDuL3qhVRY/s400/Spezza+Rally+049.JPG

hockeylover
06-19-2010, 04:56 PM
TSNBobMcKenzie Things likely to go down: Nathan Horton and others in Fla.; much in CHI; more moves in NASH; perhaps Spezza; more in PHI; Kaberle. Busy busy

MyNameIsJonas
06-19-2010, 04:57 PM
Bobby sure is busy

hockeylover
06-19-2010, 04:57 PM
Sily Ek thinks this is a precursosr to a Leafs/Flyers deal

Also, my TSN source claims Horton is down to Boston/Buffalo/Calgary/Toronto, and that once the Horton shoe falls then Sharp will go

Since when do you have a source at TSN? Have you been holding out on us, MNIJ?

hockeylover
06-19-2010, 05:00 PM
Quick Hit Update.

* Frolov to the Habs is back. (e3) Mike Cammelleri is a big fan of this potential move. If Plekanec doesn't return, this is great possibility.

* Nathan Horton. There is a better than 50% chance that Horton is moved in the next 48 hours I am told. three teams in on this. Buffalo, Boston, Calgary

* The Leafs and Flyers are confirmed talking...(from one source) I am hearing Jeff Carter is a definite possibility. The Leafs also have a strong interest in Claude Giroux.

* Add the Kings to teams who are interested in Spezza.

* John MacLean as new coach of the Devils likely means Kovalchuk will be signing elsewhere. The Flames are in on Kovalchuk as well.

* The Flyers will be super strong defensively should they be able to sign Hamhuis. (which I am told is 99% certain)

Interesting Eklund has the same three teams listed as you do MNIJ, with the exception of Toronto who he says is in with Philly - for Carter which we've heard from Bobby Mac is unlikely.

Montana
06-19-2010, 05:01 PM
So. Sens fans planned a "Save Spezza" rally and not as many people showed up as expected. Actually, only 15 people showed up.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_e8K5j1xoTmQ/TB0iATqHzSI/AAAAAAAAC90/npDuL3qhVRY/s400/Spezza+Rally+049.JPG


Priceless.

MyNameIsJonas
06-19-2010, 05:05 PM
Since when do you have a source at TSN? Have you been holding out on us, MNIJ?

My buddy does a ton of behind the scens shit back there...not ana analyst at all, but occasioanlly i hear a few things that he overhears.

JaysCyYoung
06-19-2010, 05:05 PM
Frolov to the Habs would be a good match. They need scoring up-front on the wings and adding a reliable, established 30 goal scorer would be an ideal move on their part.

hockeylover
06-19-2010, 05:06 PM
MurphysLaw74 Bruins are working on @ least 3 diff trades right now. Can't tell which B's are involved but nothing except Rask/2nd overall r untouchable.

MyNameIsJonas
06-19-2010, 05:06 PM
Frolov to the Habs would be a good match. They need scoring up-front on the wings and adding a reliable, established 30 goal scorer would be an ideal move on their part.

Also chemestry with Cammaleri

MyNameIsJonas
06-19-2010, 05:07 PM
MurphysLaw74 Bruins are working on @ least 3 diff trades right now. Can't tell which B's are involved but nothing except Rask/2nd overall r untouchable.

might want to add Chara to that list

Montana
06-19-2010, 05:08 PM
except Rask/2nd overall r untouchable.


*sigh*

Preston_Mizzi
06-19-2010, 05:08 PM
MurphysLaw74 Bruins are working on @ least 3 diff trades right now. Can't tell which B's are involved but nothing except Rask/2nd overall r untouchable.
MurphysLaw?

Montana
06-19-2010, 05:11 PM
MurphysLaw?

Boston reporter James Murphy.

hockeylover
06-19-2010, 05:12 PM
Yeah, he's actually broken quite a few trades or had the scoop first over on the Bruins' HFboards. I'm actually not following him on twitter but his rumour was retweeted by several people I'm following.

*EDIT* Is that who that is? I didn't even realize he was a reporter.

habs25th
06-19-2010, 05:44 PM
Non top line production can never be a sign of top line potential. That makes no sense.

If anything the argument would go that because Eller was a NA rookie, his shit stats don't necessarily mean he can't put up top line production, maybe.

And yeah, when you take away all of the good players, then his stats don't look so bad.

When the best comparables are Mikko Koivu, Eriksson and Elias yes it does say that you're in good shape to be a top line player.

habs25th
06-19-2010, 05:47 PM
So. Sens fans planned a "Save Spezza" rally and not as many people showed up as expected. Actually, only 15 people showed up.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_e8K5j1xoTmQ/TB0iATqHzSI/AAAAAAAAC90/npDuL3qhVRY/s400/Spezza+Rally+049.JPG

Man, that's a worse turnout than the "Save the Expos" rallies.

hockeylover
06-19-2010, 05:50 PM
Just Garrioch but whatever, I'll post anyway.


Next up on the NHL’s goaltending carousel?

Tim Thomas, come on down.

The Bruins goaltender likely isn’t long for Beantown after the Montreal Canadiens traded playoff hero Jaroslav Halak to the St. Louis Blues for two prospects on Thursday.

Indications are Boston GM Peter Chiarelli is looking to deal Thomas and his $5-million (all terms US) cap hit before July 1 to free up money. Thomas, who lost his job to Tuukka Rask last season, had a 17-18-8 record and 2.56 goals-against average.

As teams gather for the draft in Los Angeles next week, expect Thomas to be at the top of the most wanted list for GMs seeking help in goal.

The Blues were looking at the 36-year-old Thomas before acquiring Halak. It’s believed Philadelphia, Washington, San Jose and Tampa Bay are all still looking for goaltending. However, the market for netminders promises to be strong with the likes of Marty Turco (Dallas), Dan Ellis (Nashville), Evgeni Nabokov (San Jose) and Martin Biron (Islanders) poised to hit free agency.


Sources say the Caps have offered winger Alexander Semin all around the league. He has one year at $6 million left on his contract, and is a looming unrestricted free agent after next season.

Nobody is sure what Semin might fetch, although there’s a belief the Caps will want two high-end prospects and a pick. Semin had 40 goals and 84 points in 73 games last season.

“It wouldn’t surprise me if they moved Semin,” a league executive said Friday. “They need to make that lineup a little harder to play against and that guy is up and down.”

Newly-hired Florida GM Dale Tallon is also being aggressive in trying to make moves. The club has been offering around forwards Nathan Horton, Rostislav Olesz and Radek Dvorak and defenceman Keith Ballard.

http://www.ottawasun.com/sports/hockey/2010/06/18/14446071.html

Habspatrol
06-19-2010, 06:01 PM
Frolov to the Habs would be a good match. They need scoring up-front on the wings and adding a reliable, established 30 goal scorer would be an ideal move on their part.

Definitely a good fit IMO. I would like to see what him and Cammi could do together now... Cammi-Pleks-Frolov could be a dangerous line for sure.

voyager
06-19-2010, 06:40 PM
So. Sens fans planned a "Save Spezza" rally and not as many people showed up as expected. Actually, only 15 people showed up.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_e8K5j1xoTmQ/TB0iATqHzSI/AAAAAAAAC90/npDuL3qhVRY/s400/Spezza+Rally+049.JPG
YouTube- Jason Spezza's Nerdy Laugh

Pronger84
06-19-2010, 06:41 PM
LMFAO at only 15 ppl showing up for the rally. Either not many people in hockey like Spezza OR not many people know jack shit about hockey and how skilled this guy is.

MindzEye
06-19-2010, 08:11 PM
When the best comparables are Mikko Koivu, Eriksson and Elias yes it does say that you're in good shape to be a top line player.

This is only because for some reason you feel that playing against 16 yr old kids from Lethbridge is better preparation for the AHL than playing against grown men in Sweden. Ignoring that language barrier and level of competition are the two biggest hurdles for Euro's to clear to become good NHL players. Hurdles that Eller cleared before setting foot in the AHL.

There are numerous other comparables that I listed that you dismiss on quite silly grounds, names that have never become top line forwards in the NHL, most of them being decent 2nd-3rd line players.

and of course, I simply used NHL scoring records from last year and checked the players who scored 25 points or more for a similar background. I didn't do a more exhaustive search to see if there were similar players who never became NHL players, etc.

MindzEye
06-19-2010, 08:14 PM
Nobody is sure what Semin might fetch, although there’s a belief the Caps will want two high-end prospects and a pick. Semin had 40 goals and 84 points in 73 games last season.

Am I the only one who thinks the Caps don't have a hope in **** of getting that package?

Semin won't sign an extension that isn't a monster before he gets a look at free agency, and one year of Semin isn't worth 2 top prospects and (I'm assuming) a 1st round pick.

Trading all that for the honour of signing Semin to a 8+ million dollar a year deal, and not getting Washington to take on any significant contracts in return just doesn't seem likely.

Habsy
06-19-2010, 08:17 PM
Sily Ek thinks this is a precursosr to a Leafs/Flyers deal

Also, my TSN source claims Horton is down to Boston/Buffalo/Calgary/Toronto, and that once the Horton shoe falls then Sharp will go

Ah, so that means he is going to Dallas or the Islanders... got it.

Habsy
06-19-2010, 08:18 PM
So. Sens fans planned a "Save Spezza" rally and not as many people showed up as expected. Actually, only 15 people showed up.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_e8K5j1xoTmQ/TB0iATqHzSI/AAAAAAAAC90/npDuL3qhVRY/s400/Spezza+Rally+049.JPG

:smilielol5:

More people show up to our weekend baseball games.

Gotta love it.

habs25th
06-19-2010, 09:22 PM
This is only because for some reason you feel that playing against 16 yr old kids from Lethbridge is better preparation for the AHL than playing against grown men in Sweden. Ignoring that language barrier and level of competition are the two biggest hurdles for Euro's to clear to become good NHL players. Hurdles that Eller cleared before setting foot in the AHL.

There are numerous other comparables that I listed that you dismiss on quite silly grounds, names that have never become top line forwards in the NHL, most of them being decent 2nd-3rd line players.

and of course, I simply used NHL scoring records from last year and checked the players who scored 25 points or more for a similar background. I didn't do a more exhaustive search to see if there were similar players who never became NHL players, etc.

Because it can be easily proven. Obviously you show tremendous bias by the way you word it, but the fact is it's a much more similar game and style of play from junior to the AHL than from Sweden to the AHL. Also young players tend to get less ice-time in the european leagues than they do in junior, which doesn't help their development.


Jumped in the AHL from europe:

Mikko Koivu: (21) 67 games, 20 goals, 28 assists, 48 points
Loui Eriksson: (20) 78 games, 31 goals, 29 assists, 60 points
Patrick Elias: (20) 74 games, 27 goals, 36 assists, 63 points

Prior North American experience:

Sergei Kostitsyn: (20) 22 games, 6 goals, 16 assists, 22 points
David Krejci: (20) 69 games, 31 foals, 43 assists, 74 points
Jiri Tlusty: (20) 66 games, 25 goals, 41 assists, 66 points.

Don't know which trio you'd rather have, to me it's an easy choice.

hockeylover
06-19-2010, 09:24 PM
Tell me we're not still having the Lars Eller discussion...


Ah, so that means he is going to Dallas or the Islanders... got it.

Were you making fun of MNIJ's alleged source at TSN there or did you see Eklund at the top and think he meant Eklund said that?

Habsy
06-19-2010, 09:40 PM
Yes.

hockeylover
06-19-2010, 09:56 PM
Speaking of Eller, they've already got their Eller vs Kadri poll up on the other board. That was quick/inevitable. :lol

Habsy
06-19-2010, 10:21 PM
Who did that?

hockeylover
06-19-2010, 10:26 PM
On the other board. Meaning another site, not the Habs forum here.

JaysCyYoung
06-19-2010, 10:33 PM
44-11 Kadri right now.

BeLeafer
06-19-2010, 11:01 PM
Been away from following stuff for a bit ... when did the Habs reinstate Rejean Houle as GM?

The Shrike
06-19-2010, 11:09 PM
Been away from following stuff for a bit ... when did the Habs reinstate Rejean Houle as GM?All they need now is to bring back Tremblay as coach so he can chase away the one goalie they have left.

BeLeafer
06-19-2010, 11:53 PM
As a Leafs fan, that should be the last thing you'd want them to do. The worst (or best, depending on your vantage point) part of that deal is that they've anointed Price as 'the guy'.

Habspatrol
06-20-2010, 12:02 AM
I'm pretty happy about having Price as the "anointed" one.

Name another goalie that was 22 and already had 60 NHL wins under his belt while posting a career .912 sv%. I'm sure there have been one or two, but definitely not many.

People seem to think that Price was horrible last year but he really wasn't that bad.He put up a .912 sv% but just had very little goal support. He will be just fine.

habs25th
06-20-2010, 12:05 AM
As a Leafs fan, that should be the last thing you'd want them to do. The worst (or best, depending on your vantage point) part of that deal is that they've anointed Price as 'the guy'.

Luongo (22): 915%
Price (22): 912%
Brodeur (22): 902%

number17
06-20-2010, 12:14 AM
Here's Cox's take on the Hamhuis trade ...


You've got to give the Philadelphia Flyers credit for being proactive.

With a number of teams, including the Maple Leafs, anxiously waiting for a chance to try and sign Nashville defenceman Dan Hamhuis as an unrestricted free agent on July 1st, the Flyers have aggressively struck first, trading defenceman Ryan Parent to the Preds today for the rights to Hamhuis.

That opens up a 12-day window in which the Flyers exclusively own rights to sign the 27-year-old Hamhuis to a new deal, which seems likely.

It's the same kind of move - and with the same Nashville club - the Flyers made three years ago when they acquired the rights to defenceman Kimmo Timmonen and winger Scott Hartnell then signed both to six-year contracts. At the time, many argued the Flyers ended up paying much more in salary to both players than necessary - Timmonen's deal averaged $6.3 million, Hartnell's $4.2 million - but Timmonen and Hartnell were both integral parts this spring as Philly charged all the way to the Stanley Cup final.First of all, I doubt how interested Burke really is in signing Hamhuis. Do we really need Beauchemin II? Even assuming Kaberle is good as gone, Hamhuis doesn't really replace what Kabby brings to the table. If Burke is looking to sign a defenseman to QB the PP, and help move the puck up, Martin is probably the best guy among UFA d-men, not Hamhuis.

Now, Parent + conditional pick (I believe it's maybe a 3rd rounder if the Flyers do sign him?) isn't much to pay, but the Timmonen and Hartnell examples are EXACTLY the kindda deals that painted the Flyers into the corner. Both players ARE indeed overpaid, and the Flyers are having a tough time operating right up at the cap limit with all these big contracts.

Montana
06-20-2010, 12:15 AM
Price is gonna be the shit........I'll be surprised if he's not a top 5 goalie in a couple years.

habs25th
06-20-2010, 12:17 AM
Roy (22): 900%
Belfour (23): 877%
Joseph (23): 890%
Miller (22): 902%
Ward (22): 897%
Fleury (22): 906%
Giguere (22): 914%
Nabokov (22): 897% (AHL)


Get the idea?

habs25th
06-20-2010, 12:22 AM
Dipietro (22): 911%
Lehtonen (22): 906%
Khabibulin (22): 905%

MindzEye
06-20-2010, 01:06 AM
but the fact is it's a much more similar game and style of play from junior to the AHL than from Sweden to the AHL. Also young players tend to get less ice-time in the european leagues than they do in junior, which doesn't help their development.


Like I said, if you think that playing against 16 yr olds in north america is better for the development of a 19 yr old than playing against men on one of the top 2-3 professional leagues on the planet, run with it.

I buy the ice time argument in general, but Eller was clearly a 2nd-3rd line producer on his SEL club and obviously got consistent ice time.

And blow the "your wording is clearly biased" shit out of your ass, my bias is in your analysis of the statistics (which started out as saying that nobody had a similar track record to Eller...which was clear bullshit, as 5 minutes of basic research showed) not in any other factor.

I agree that Ellers statistical track record agrees with the scouting assessment of his abilities. A strong 2nd line centre...it's your pro habs bias concerning a player you wouldn't have pissed on if he was on fire before a few days ago that is clear to see.

Pronger84
06-20-2010, 02:26 AM
This is Prices chance to really prove himself in Montreal, theres no excuses, he doesnt have a goalie challenging him for the # 1 role, he has a decent team in front of him. This coming from a leafs fan.

hockeylover
06-20-2010, 07:18 AM
Roy (22): 900%
Belfour (23): 877%
Joseph (23): 890%
Miller (22): 902%
Ward (22): 897%
Fleury (22): 906%
Giguere (22): 914%
Nabokov (22): 897% (AHL)

Get the idea?

It'll be interesting to see how this plays out - but not because of talent. There's no question Price is very talented. What I'm curious to see is how the fans react when Price has his first bad game post-Halak trade. And how Price reacts to the people lined up to say they traded the wrong guy.

zeke
06-20-2010, 09:25 AM
Habs25th is leaving out some interesting names.

20-22yrs

J.Thibault: 129gms, .910sv%
C.Price: 134gms, .912sv%

habs25th
06-20-2010, 10:52 AM
Like I said, if you think that playing against 16 yr olds in north america is better for the development of a 19 yr old than playing against men on one of the top 2-3 professional leagues on the planet, run with it..

I do, and I already showed you some proofs. If you can find me statistics that shows 3 europeans who jumped straight to the AHL that produced more than 3 better europeans players who passed by the junior ranks, or simply had North american experience, than I'll give you this argument. If as you say playing against men in europe helps you develop faster than it shouldn't be hard to find. BTW there's a very small minority of 16 years old in the CHL, there's more 20 years old players but obviously saying playing against 16-20 years old wouldn't sound as good would it?



I buy the ice time argument in general, but Eller was clearly a 2nd-3rd line producer on his SEL club and obviously got consistent ice time.
In the CHL in all likelyhood he would have been a top line player and probably the go to guy, or one of them.


And blow the "your wording is clearly biased" shit out of your ass, my bias is in your analysis of the statistics (which started out as saying that nobody had a similar track record to Eller...which was clear bullshit, as 5 minutes of basic research showed) not in any other factor.

There are very few players who've had similar or better track records than Eller, all of them are solid NHLers, about half of them are top line players.


I agree that Ellers statistical track record agrees with the scouting assessment of his abilities. A strong 2nd line centre...it's your pro habs bias concerning a player you wouldn't have pissed on if he was on fire before a few days ago that is clear to see.
I showed a lot of statistics that support why I think he might have a higher ceiling than given credit for, I also said it's possible he might top off as a 50 points player. Very hard to gauge at this point given his lack of North american play.

KingTucker
06-20-2010, 11:04 AM
Concerning the Senators:

They had a "Rally for Spezza" on Parliament Hill and only 20 people showed up...

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/sports/Spezza+supporters+show+rally/3177079/story.html?cid=megadrop_story

Also, Bobby Mac tweeting that the Senators wunderkind could well be on the move:

"Things likely to go down: Nathan Horton and others in Fla.; much in CHI; more moves in NASH; perhaps Spezza; more in PHI; Kaberle. Busy busy"

"BTW, I didn't say Spezza to NSH, I said perhaps a Spezza trade and more moves in NASH. Separate items."

You have to wonder how this will pan out with the Senators:

i)Murray trades Spezza and doesn't get a strong return, or gets a high pick but no one with Giggles' experience.

ii)Murray doesn't trade him before July 1 and Giggles asks for a trade, using his NTC to veto any team he doesn't like, hi Dany! :thumbsup(22):

iii)Spezza stays and the fans ride him ever harder because they heard he complained about the booing...kinda the schoolyard syndrome where if you snitch you get it even worse.

It just doesn't seem to be a winnable scenario for their center. Fans will never be happy until he actualizes into a two-way player, which he clearly isn't (able to do?). Spezza won't be happy because he thinks his skills should be enough for people and he can't play defensively without completely sacrficing his skillset.

Also, looks like San Jose might be interested in Tim Thomas...

corksens
06-20-2010, 11:43 AM
I'm pretty happy about having Price as the "anointed" one.

Name another goalie that was 22 and already had 60 NHL wins under his belt while posting a career .912 sv%. I'm sure there have been one or two, but definitely not many.

People seem to think that Price was horrible last year but he really wasn't that bad.He put up a .912 sv% but just had very little goal support. He will be just fine.Price will be good - and is good.

I just think Halak is going to be better.

Habspatrol
06-20-2010, 11:54 AM
Price will be good - and is good.

I just think Halak is going to be better.

Fair enough, that's a very legitimate opinion. Halak is better at this point in time so it would be tough for me to really argue. I just feel Price will be better. Like Montana said, I think Price will be a top 5 goalie within a few years. I could definitely be wrong though.

Habsy
06-20-2010, 11:56 AM
I like Halak and agree he will be a solid goalie but it does still remain to be seen if he can carry a full 65-70 game load plus playoffs. If he can then the Blues are all set.

Price absolutely has the talent to be a top 5 guy. He needs to get stronger between the ears.

corksens
06-20-2010, 01:08 PM
Talent doesn't usually dictate being able to play a full season as a starter.

Actually, I'm not sure what does. I don't know if Price can really handle that workload...his career high is only 52...7 more than Halak.

I just think Halak has done more since entering the league than Price.

leafman101
06-20-2010, 01:16 PM
Halak started 61 games total this season, and never missed a beat.

MindzEye
06-20-2010, 01:39 PM
If you can find me statistics that shows 3 europeans who jumped straight to the AHL that produced more than 3 better europeans players who passed by the junior ranks, or simply had North american experience, than I'll give you this argument.

This is a trick question. As I mentioned previously, most impact europeans that come over, jump straight into the NHL, not the AHL.

With the small sample size left, it's impossible to draw any conclusions from them....other than Eller is pretty much middle of the road among those names.

mbow30
06-20-2010, 01:45 PM
to revisit a past discussion -- with philly making a play for hamhuis you have to wonder if coburn's days there are numbered.

as for price vs. halak... i don't see the point in comparing price at 20, 21 and 22 to theodore at those ages. it doesn't make sense to do that. goalies peak in their mid-to-late-20s.

there are plenty of examples of goalies shining earlier in their careers and then falling apart once a weakness was exposed and they had to face some adversity (see: potvin, theodore, raycroft). on the flip side, there are so many instances of goalies not amounting to much in their early 20s but putting things together mentally, learning to round out theri games and get over their mistakes, and emerging as top notch starters later in life (see: belfour, joseph, anderson, vokoun).

most of these guys just aren't ready mentally in their early 20s. hell price hasn't been but has still managed to put up some impressive numbers.

i think he'll be fine. montreal is taking a bit of a leap of faith that he'll get better than halak has been, but i don't think it's a bad thing to be hanging your hat on price. this guy has always been a good goalie, and despite his struggles in the nhl... has still been pretty reliable.

besides, without halak over his shoulder he might be able to relax and play his game.

that said, i can't say i'm upset to see halak gone and price starting. halak's just a damn good goalie, and gave the habs an amazing insurance policy. they're a worse team RIGHT NOW and that can only be a good thing for a division rival.

mbow30
06-20-2010, 01:49 PM
don't know if anybody posted it -- the devils brought back arnott for halishuck and a second.

arnott has his injury problems but he's a pretty reliable 60-70 point guy. a good pick up for new jersey. i've always liked arnott's game.

PQ
06-20-2010, 01:52 PM
SKA St. Petersburg of the KHL have confirmed that they offered Kovalchuk a contract that they think is adequate of his professional level. The contract offer is until the Olympic season and they stressed the advantage of Russia's lower tax laws over that of North America as well as performance bonuses.

mbow30
06-20-2010, 01:54 PM
It's going to be really interesting to see what Kovlachuk ends up doing.

Markets like Toronto, New York, Montreal and LA could still be very alluring -- he would stand to make a ton in endorsement dollars. Definitely in the multi-millions, and that could be enough to get him to stay in the NHL.

Unless, of course, a Russian team counters with some ludicrous $14 or $15mn offer. Which could happen.

Habspatrol
06-20-2010, 02:13 PM
I heard he was offered $13mil tax free per year for 3 or 4 years. That would be tough to turn down to play at home.

voyager
06-20-2010, 02:31 PM
I heard he was offered $13mil tax free per year for 3 or 4 years. That would be tough to turn down to play at home.

Jeez, hard to turn that down. Though I'd imagine he'd have to spend a good amount on personal protection.

Isaac25
06-20-2010, 03:18 PM
We've yet to see the best of the best players in the world play in another league in their prime. I do not see Kovalchuk being the first...he'll get paid large here and enjoy all the amenities that North American life offers for pampered athletes.

Habspatrol
06-20-2010, 03:20 PM
I lean towards thinking that too, but these Russian players do seem to really be patriotic and love Mother Russia.

Metalleaf
06-20-2010, 03:30 PM
Unless your name is Alex Mogilny

Habsy
06-20-2010, 04:33 PM
Halak started 61 games total this season, and never missed a beat.

He was gassed against Philly.

MyNameIsJonas
06-20-2010, 05:13 PM
Regarding Kovalchuk,

I lean towards the thinking of a few things.

1) There are only so many teams that can afford him, both cap wise and dollar wise

2) I beleive the Arnott aquisition removes New Jersey from play

3) I beleive that LAK should be the front runner, based on where the team is, cap space, money, and the allure of the biig city.

4) I beleive Burke when he says he's not interested

5) If the kings pass, i think we might see a team out of left field make a play here. A team like the Oilers ( always seemingly offering big dollars), Isles, Wild, Blues, Preds ( perhaps shedding salary to make a run), or Jackets.

Habsy
06-20-2010, 05:43 PM
Kovalchuk will want to play in a big market where he can make endorsement $ and be recognized. He is on record as saying big markets like NY, Toronto and Montreal do not scare him.

You can forget him signing with a po-dunk town like Nashville or Minneapolis.

habs25th
06-20-2010, 05:56 PM
Kovalchuk will want to play in a big market where he can make endorsement $ and be recognized. He is on record as saying big markets like NY, Toronto and Montreal do not scare him.

You can forget him signing with a po-dunk town like Nashville or Minneapolis.

Agreed, good thing Burke doesn't want him. I bet he ends up in LA.

Habsy
06-20-2010, 06:01 PM
I would also say LA is the front runner but don't be too surprised if San Jose gets in the mix if they lose Marleau.

Pronger84
06-20-2010, 06:15 PM
We've yet to see the best of the best players in the world play in another league in their prime. I do not see Kovalchuk being the first...he'll get paid large here and enjoy all the amenities that North American life offers for pampered athletes.

I can see Kovalchuck going to the KHL for 2-3 years, make a boat load of money, then come back to the NHL at 30, and make even more money. The guy doesnt care about winning or what team he plays for, all he cares about is the protecting his own ass.

uncus
06-20-2010, 06:53 PM
I like Halak and agree he will be a solid goalie but it does still remain to be seen if he can carry a full 65-70 game load plus playoffs. If he can then the Blues are all set.

Price absolutely has the talent to be a top 5 guy. He needs to get stronger between the ears.

I wish the leafs had either one of these two goalies .... when our hope lies in the likes of gustafsson .... lol lets hope we make the playoffs ....

uncus
06-20-2010, 06:54 PM
Kovy wont leave .... his ego is to big and he is a slave to it .... he wont leave!

rated
06-20-2010, 07:21 PM
I can see Kovalchuck going to the KHL for 2-3 years, make a boat load of money, then come back to the NHL at 30, and make even more money. The guy doesnt care about winning or what team he plays for, all he cares about is the protecting his own ass.

Do you know Kovalchuck or something ? A lot of theory crafting here...

MindzEye
06-20-2010, 07:41 PM
Do you know Kovalchuck or something ? A lot of theory crafting here...

There's been a lot of that with some of the newer posters lately. Very HFish

corksens
06-20-2010, 08:44 PM
Halak started 61 games total this season, and never missed a beat.Not sure how I got those numbers so wrong.

Re-inforces my point though.

hockeylover
06-20-2010, 10:08 PM
TSNBobMcKenzie BTW, nothing imminent on Horton with BOS as in tonight. Stand down. Going to be a big week for potetial wheeling and dealing.

Habspatrol
06-20-2010, 10:26 PM
Not sure how I got those numbers so wrong.

Re-inforces my point though.

Probably because you didn't count the playoffs like he did.

MindzEye
06-20-2010, 10:31 PM
That might be the gayest sig I've ever seen

Habspatrol
06-20-2010, 10:32 PM
C'mon... it's funny.... no?

Dammit, I liked it.

JaysCyYoung
06-20-2010, 10:36 PM
Please go back to the Goodfellas one. Please.

Habspatrol
06-20-2010, 10:38 PM
Dammit... 0 for 3 people so far. I may have to go back to Habs4Life with a different new idea. The Goodfellas one was awesome but doesn't really work anymore since those guys are no long "Newfellas."

I thought this one was funny.

GGpX
06-20-2010, 10:39 PM
It's a funny see-it-once type of thing, but not something you wanna see over and over. ;)

Habsy
06-20-2010, 10:41 PM
C'mon... it's funny.... no?

Dammit, I liked it.

The first thing that popped into my head when seeing your new sig was...

YouTube- You Know How I Know You're Gay? - Outake

JaysCyYoung
06-20-2010, 10:43 PM
HP: the signature would be a hell of a lot funnier if Subban had an eye-piece thing like LaVar Burton did on The Next Generation.

MindzEye
06-20-2010, 10:44 PM
HP: the signature would be a hell of a lot funnier if Subban had an eye-piece thing like LaVar Burton did on The Next Generation.

Yeah, I can buy that.

Habspatrol
06-20-2010, 10:48 PM
Here I will post it so that people in the future know what we were talking about... seeing as I will be changing it.
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff129/Habspatrol/HabsTrek-1.jpg?t=1277085447

Here are a couple of my older ones too.
Goodfellas/Newfellas
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff129/Habspatrol/NEWFELLASa2.jpg?t=1277088194
and my favorite... The Usual Suspects
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff129/Habspatrol/Habs/usualsuspects.jpg?t=1277088017

blacksheep
06-21-2010, 10:50 AM
I wish the leafs had either one of these two goalies .... when our hope lies in the likes of gustafsson .... lol lets hope we make the playoffs ....
I have more faith in Gusto than I did in either of Raycroft or Toskala. You should too. And besides, it's not JUST Gusto. It's Gusto and Giguere. JSG is our key to the best goaltending we've had since... well... in way too many ****ing years!

Metalleaf
06-21-2010, 10:55 AM
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee152/Metalleaf24/family-guy-geordi-visor-kkk.gif

BG
06-21-2010, 11:16 AM
don't know if anybody posted it -- the devils brought back arnott for halishuck and a second.

arnott has his injury problems but he's a pretty reliable 60-70 point guy. a good pick up for new jersey. i've always liked arnott's game.

When I first saw this deal, I was assuming that Lou has again lost his mind trying to rekindle past glory (Holik, Rolston).

Turns our Halischuk is likely a 3rd liner and a 2011 2nd rounder is a lottery ticket (of the Super 7 variety).

Good deal, I guess.

number17
06-21-2010, 11:16 AM
When Niemi can come out of nowhere and ultimately win the cup, I don't know why people would write off Gustavsson so quickly, especially considering he put up some pretty decent numbers after the DD-day that rid Toskala from the dressing room, and got him a pretty good mentor in JSG.

Metalleaf
06-21-2010, 11:18 AM
Don't know if its writing off Gusto....just a case of better to be safe than sorry, what with the last 5-6 years of pretty lousy goaltending.

Habsy
06-21-2010, 11:20 AM
Don't even begin to compare the teams in front of Niemi and Gusto. Saying that Niemi did it so why not Gusto isn't exactly being honest. Niemi was pretty good in some games and pretty bad in other. His team can score some goals.

BG
06-21-2010, 11:28 AM
The goaltending in the finals was nothing special, gotta be the worst in recent memory.

That both teams had 3 scoring lines, is why both teams made it out of their conferences.

Niemi played "good enough".

JaysCyYoung
06-21-2010, 11:36 AM
This year's Finals was actually the third-highest scoring one of all-time. And that includes those played in the 1980s. That's ridiculous offence.

hockeylover
06-21-2010, 11:40 AM
DarrenDreger Amid speculation the Hawks and Caps have a deal in place. Not true.

kausatoday Dustin Byfuglien is definitely in play as the Blackhawks sort through how to eliminate their salary cap issues this summer.

hockeylover
06-21-2010, 11:42 AM
While Tallon declined to discuss specific names, another source told ESPN.com Horton is far from the only name on the table and it's open season in Florida. If it's a good offer, the Panthers will listen. They want to stockpile draft picks but also remain competitive. Tallon doesn't want to bottom out, which is why he'll likely keep veteran goalie Tomas Vokoun.

http://espn.go.com/nhl/blog/_/name/lebrun_pierre/id/5310319/florida-aggressive-calls-heat-up

MyNameIsJonas
06-21-2010, 12:25 PM
Doesnt surprise me that Byfuglien is in play.

Of all the spare peices rumored to be on the move ( Sharp, Versteeg, Buff) he is the one that is easily replaced with someone right now

Hoss
06-21-2010, 12:36 PM
Byuf isn't the most talented, but what he did in the playoffs probably made Burke get a boner. A big body who is willing to stand in front of the net. Our first or second line could really use something like that. Give Kessel some room or Kadri some room

PlayerToBeNamedLater
06-21-2010, 12:41 PM
This is what happens when a team like the Hawks in a cup -- 2nd tier guys like Versteeg, Byfuglien, Sharp, Ladd etc get overrated.

What seperates the Hawks from most teams, including the Leafs, is that they have multiple elite talents like Toews, Kane, Hossa, Keith and the Leafs don't.

Adding players like Sharp, Versteeg would improve the Leafs, but it wouldn't make them serious contenders. They will become serious contenders when they add legit 1st tier talent like the Hawks have.

Kessel is a nice start upfront, and Kadri might be another peice, but they need to add more elite talent if they are to compete with the big boys.