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mbow30
02-19-2011, 11:54 AM
Just about to head out so I don't have time to put together the sort of post I think this topic demands, but I think we have to talk about Dion Phaneuf.

I have stuck up for him this year because he has been, for the most part, very good physically and defensively. However, he has been able to hide his offensive game (or lack thereof) behind Kaberle's 50-60 point pace. In short, while the Leafs needed more production from the back end even with Kaberle here, the fact that Phaneuf isn't even scoring at a 30 point pace mattered much less than it otherwise would. In short, he escaped scrutiny because of Kaberle: (1) because of the trade rumours; (2) because Kaberle inflated the team's production from the back and also (3) because he and Kaberle never 'clicked,' giving him a convenient excuse.

Well, those days are over. At this point, the Leafs need Dion Phaneuf to start scoring. And I don't mean a marginal increase in production. For $6.5 mn in salary, with the 'C' on his chest, the Leafs simply needed Dion Phaneuf, the 15-20 goal 50-60 point defenseman to return.

I think Brian Burke's entire tenure might rest on it. If Dion Phaneuf is just a 30 point defenseman then I think Burke has to be deemed an abysmal failure. If that is the case then he has made an enormous error in committing $6.5mn in cap space to Phaneuf (not to mention anointing him the captain), and ealing Kaberle.

It's the only way out. They need more production from the blueline, and they needed it even with Kaberle here. If Phaneuf can't step up then there will be big problems, because he is the only the guy presently on the roster with the ability to be better than a 20 or 25 point defenseman.

And with Kaberle out of the picture there are no more excuses.

leafman101
02-19-2011, 11:59 AM
Since the started giving him big minutes again he has 7 points in 13 games. But still only 1 goal.

I just don't get why he can't score here. Even in his shitty year in Calgary last year he was on pace for a 15 goal season. He has never scored less than 11 goals in a year, but he has 4 goals in 68 games as a Leaf.

Doesn't make sense.

Hoss
02-19-2011, 12:01 PM
I love all these references by some of us about "an abysmal failure" There have been questionable moves and there have been great moves. Chill out with the total failure crap. Dion may take this situation and once again gain the confidence of being the true number one guy (this is what he did when at his best in Calgary)... maybe Kabs was an ego thing for him as Bouw or others in Calgary. And of course maybe not.

All moves take time to work there way through. We have alot of broken ankles around here from so many jumps on and off the bandwagon.

UWHabs
02-19-2011, 12:02 PM
Definitely. This looks like his first season without double digit goals as well, which is very alarming. You can live with him getting 35-40 points a year. It's not ideal, but it's manageable. But for the pricetag he brings, you need him to be a #1 defenseman, which right now, he is not.

LeafGm
02-19-2011, 12:37 PM
It's going to be interesting. The free ride's definitely over for Phaneuf now that Kaberle's gone. He'll probably get a free pass for at least the rest of this season, but if he comes back next year and keeps producing at the 5 goal/30 point pace he's been scoring at since pulling on a Leaf jersey, he's going to get to experience first hand how quickly a viciously this city can turn on what they perceive to be an overpaid, overrated defenseman.

Artnes
02-19-2011, 12:38 PM
Now that Kabs is gone its his chance to step and and fill the void of being the true all around d-man we knew in Calgary

It seems as if his numbers have regressed since he started playing a safer game so if he opens it up a little more the numbers should rise.

As for his shot, he seems to be trying to pick corners was too much. 85% of his shots end up being bullets that go over the net and ricochet out of the zone. The guy has a cannon so he needs to keep it lower and just blast it on net more.

teeds
02-19-2011, 12:54 PM
Contrary to popular belief, Burke is NOT a Phaneuf fan. He made the trade to get Aulie. Phaneuf is a future trade chip, just like Kaberle was.

Schenn, Gardniner, Colborne, and Aulie are the only guys on this team that Burke cares two hoots about. He would trade the whole line of Grabovksi, Kulemin and MacArthur for two first round picks and Brayden Schenn.

I will say it again. Burke didn't like ONE player on the Leafs when he got here. NOT ONE. It takes three to four years to turn that ship around at all.

He thought Kaberle was worse than Komisarek or Lebda defensively by the way.

AND HE WILL TRADE PHANEUF WHEN PHANEUF IS AT THE TOP OF HIS GAME.

habs25th
02-19-2011, 01:05 PM
Contrary to popular belief, Burke is NOT a Phaneuf fan. He made the trade to get Aulie. Phaneuf is a future trade chip, just like Kaberle was.

Schenn, Gardniner, Colborne, and Aulie are the only guys on this team that Burke cares two hoots about. He would trade the whole line of Grabovksi, Kulemin and MacArthur for two first round picks and Brayden Schenn.

I will say it again. Burke didn't like ONE player on the Leafs when he got here. NOT ONE. It takes three to four years to turn that ship around at all.

He thought Kaberle was worse than Komisarek or Lebda defensively by the way.

AND HE WILL TRADE PHANEUF WHEN PHANEUF IS AT THE TOP OF HIS GAME.

That's gold.

The Green Hornet
02-19-2011, 01:08 PM
blah blah blah you are so full of shit teeds

UWHabs
02-19-2011, 01:11 PM
AND HE WILL TRADE PHANEUF WHEN PHANEUF IS AT THE TOP OF HIS GAME.

How is he going to go back to 2008 to trade Phaneuf?

Volcanologist
02-19-2011, 01:12 PM
Contrary to popular belief, Burke is NOT a Phaneuf fan. He made the trade to get Aulie. Phaneuf is a future trade chip, just like Kaberle was.


Riiiight. That must be why he made him the captain?

Why wouldn't you make Beauchemin the captain in that case? Oh yeah, that's right, because he was future trade bait.

Burke will live or die with whatever he can put around Kessel and Phaneuf. Those are the guys he goes with. Now, if Burke gets fired in the next year or two, then all bets are off. But for now those two aren't moving.

teeds
02-19-2011, 02:05 PM
You guys don't know how Burke works. He is a genius at marketing. Genius. But since this forum is populated with cement head/bots like the Green Hornet, you might never get his M.O.

He showcases constantly. Constantly. And making Phaneuf captain? Best showcase of all time.

teeds
02-19-2011, 02:17 PM
And he DID make that trade to get Aulie. Phaneuf is not worth the money he is getting now. Burke knows that BETTER than any of us/YOU. But he wanted to get rid of all the deadbeats that he sent their way. And he wanted Aulie. Bad.

Someone, somewhere will be stupid enough to overpay Phor Phaneuf at some point. And Burke will trade him faster than you can blow a bad fart.

Volcanologist
02-19-2011, 02:20 PM
teeds, if you get this right you make your money back from the Schitt call. But if this is showcasing the show is not going particularly well. I don't think we could get what we paid for Phaneuf right now.

leafman101
02-19-2011, 02:23 PM
What did we pay for Phaneuf? Nothing. Hagman and Mayers stink and White and Stajan appear to have just benefitted from increased time playing on a shit team. Now they are expensive, under performing 2nd liners.

mbow30
02-19-2011, 02:33 PM
I love all these references by some of us about "an abysmal failure"

well, yeah, a $6.5mn defender scoring 25 points is an 'abysmal failure.' no matter which way you look at it


There have been questionable moves and there have been great moves. Chill out with the total failure crap. Dion may take this situation and once again gain the confidence of being the true number one guy (this is what he did when at his best in Calgary)... maybe Kabs was an ego thing for him as Bouw or others in Calgary. And of course maybe not.

if phaneuf can't produce because ther are other good defensemen on the roster then he isn't worth $6.5mn.


All moves take time to work there way through. We have alot of broken ankles around here from so many jumps on and off the bandwagon.

he's been here for a year now and still isn't producing. there has been enough time.

teeds
02-19-2011, 02:44 PM
Burke wouldn't do that deal without Aulie. Why? Because Burke is essentially a Jesuit/masonic asset management man. He is brilliant actually. He showcases, deceives, postures etc... But make no mistake about it. He is after the BIGGEST, most skilled, YOUNGEST talent on the planet.

He went after Bozak and Gustavson in the middle of summer. He was willing to do what few GM's are willing to do. Give up some of their golf time. They are so far, showing good signs of becoming good players. But far from complete. But they were FREE.

He works his ass off, and he will NOT go after old players. Not usually anyways. DO NOT LET THIS GUY FOOL YOU. He is the real meal.

And he hasn't fired Wilson. WHY? Because Wilson is IN on the plan. Showcase, posture and deceive. And claim that you are into making the playoffs, but you are much more interested in building from the bottom up.

And yes, the Marlies are almost as important as the Leafs to him.

Didn't I say just before he was hired that we had an advantage over every other NHL team save the Flyers? Because our AHL team is two miles from our NHL team. Huge advantage and Burke is working that to the fullest.

MindzEye
02-19-2011, 02:46 PM
What did we pay for Phaneuf? Nothing. Hagman and Mayers stink and White and Stajan appear to have just benefitted from increased time playing on a shit team. Now they are expensive, under performing 2nd liners.

Sure, but we're paying Phaneuf 6.5 million.

We could have easily traded away all of those other pieces without taking back a 30 point 6.5 million dollar defenceman. Don't get me wrong, I'm hoping that Dion's offence returns and all, but it has been a year now and he's simply not playing up to his paycheque (not to mention the "C" on his chest)

When was the last time that you can honestly say that our highest paid player and captain, Dion Phaneuf, was the best player on our team and the main reason we won a game? How often does this happen?

leafman101
02-19-2011, 02:48 PM
I'm not saying Phaneuf hasn't been disappointing, I just objected to the notion that we wouldn't be able to get as much as we gave up if the Leafs were to trade him now.

They didn't give up anything.

Volcanologist
02-19-2011, 03:00 PM
I'm not saying Phaneuf hasn't been disappointing, I just objected to the notion that we wouldn't be able to get as much as we gave up if the Leafs were to trade him now.

They didn't give up anything.

Okay, what do you think they could get for him at this point, exactly?

Pronger84
02-19-2011, 03:01 PM
They didnt give up anything?

Stajan is a borderline 2nd line centre
Hagman is a 20-25 goal scorer
White was playing top 4 mins for them (before being traded)

I'd say we gave up some assets.

leafman101
02-19-2011, 03:02 PM
I'm sure we could get a couple overpaid second line forwards and a 2nd pairing dman to match the salary.

There is no way teams wouldn't be willing to take on Dion Phaneuf. Its not like he's signed for a billion years like Lecavailer.

Metalleaf
02-19-2011, 03:03 PM
White's bounced around with 3 teams, Stajan's making $4M as a borderline 2nd line centre, and Hagman is still the moody scorer he was in Toronto. I'd rather have Phaneuf and Aulie.

MindzEye
02-19-2011, 03:09 PM
White's bounced around with 3 teams, Stajan's making $4M as a borderline 2nd line centre, and Hagman is still the moody scorer he was in Toronto. I'd rather have Phaneuf and Aulie.

True...but if Dion continues to be a 30 pt defender, I'd rather keep Aulie and move Phaneuf at some point next year. Which we won't because the fat drunk went and anointed him as the new hockey jesus as soon as the trade was finalized. Burke isn't trading his captain.

Metalleaf
02-19-2011, 03:12 PM
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_4aD_tmWNohg/TLSOK1DS7HI/AAAAAAAAC5s/kDsJRyajee0/s1600/political-pictures-rioting-crowd-torches-frankenstein.jpg

teeds
02-19-2011, 03:14 PM
Burke made him captain for two reasons. One to see if he COULD regain past form. Two, if he cannot, then some pooch GM will take him off his hands at a point where Phaneuf shows a bit of a hot streak. Either way.....

TimHorton
02-19-2011, 03:14 PM
Just about to head out so I don't have time to put together the sort of post I think this topic demands, but I think we have to talk about Dion Phaneuf.


Lazy jew.

MindzEye
02-19-2011, 03:16 PM
Metal, you seriously don't think that criticism of a 30 pt defender making 6.5 million is warranted?

Metalleaf
02-19-2011, 03:18 PM
Sure...but I also think Phaneuf's been playing injured for most of the season. His defence isn't an issue and I think his scoring touch will return.

MindzEye
02-19-2011, 03:23 PM
Sure...but I also think Phaneuf's been playing injured for most of the season. His defence isn't an issue and I think his scoring touch will return.

What type of injury and when did you think he picked it up?

Metalleaf
02-19-2011, 03:26 PM
Phaneuf throws his body around a lot, I think he might be playing through a hip flexor or something of that nature. Something that has affected his shot for sure. Now its just a guess, I could be wrong...but you don't lose your talent at the drop of a hat, somethings up.

Volcanologist
02-19-2011, 03:46 PM
It's got to be something.

You can't be a 20 goal 50-60 point threat and then just have that talent vanish overnight.

Having said that, Burke has to give him some forwards willing to go to the net and take some punishment.

Metalleaf
02-19-2011, 03:46 PM
Lupul's helped in that regard.

Montana
02-19-2011, 03:49 PM
I think we'll all be surprised/worried if we don't see Phaneuf take some sort of steps to be the leader offensively from the back end, now that Kaberle is gone....


I'm not too worried now, but if he plays out the remainder of the season at a 30 point pace?.....eesh.

JaysCyYoung
02-19-2011, 03:57 PM
It's one thing for Phaneuf to have struggled last season given the tumultuous season that the Flames were mired in and the supposed dressing room divide that emerged by the mid-way point of the year, but it's another for him to have continued to regress offensively in an entirely new atmosphere in which he has been given every opportunity to succeed. For whatever reason, the shots are simply not hitting the net, he's been almost neutered physically to the point where you wonder just how this man was considered the most feared bodychecker in the game over a three-year period coming out of his rookie season, and he's seemed almost indifferent on the ice, all of which aren't exactly "qualities" you want to see in your captain.

He needs to pull his finger out of his ass and step things the F up pronto, that's for certain.

JaysCyYoung
02-19-2011, 04:01 PM
They didnt give up anything?

Stajan is a borderline 2nd line centre
Hagman is a 20-25 goal scorer
White was playing top 4 mins for them (before being traded)

I'd say we gave up some assets.

Stajan and Hagman are barely cracking 14 minutes per game worth of ice-time on the Flames this season and have a combined 14 goals... between them. There is a very realistic possibility that Stajan in particular finishes the season with single-digit goal totals.

All for the lovely price of $4.5 million and $3 million respectively, $1 million more than they would be paying Phaneuf. And as disappointing as Dion's performance has been since joining the Leafs, I would much rather have Phaneuf at that price and hope for a return to his elite form of 2007-08 than to hold my breath on a pair of commonplace assets (one of whom is a noted dressing room cancer).

And White, the only asset of substance that Leafs fans were disappointed to have included into the trade at the time of the transaction, only played a total of 43 games in Calgary. He was a negligible element of the trade in hindsight despite his strong performance prior.

MindzEye
02-19-2011, 04:03 PM
Just wanted to point something out....

Tomas Kaberle - 38 points - 2011 salary ?????
Phaneuf + Komisarek + Lebda + Beauch - 38 points - 2011 salary 16 million

But Kaberle is the one we "can't afford" to keep.

Go **** yourself you fat irish ****.

JaysCyYoung
02-19-2011, 04:04 PM
Good God that is frightening. If that doesn't tune in the clueless masses as to Kaberle's importance to this team, nothing will.

Metalleaf
02-19-2011, 04:39 PM
Burke never signed Lebda to be anything more than a depth guy, the fact that he's become more, is friggin unfortunate. But he really is irrelevant.

We should really give a shit only about: Phaneuf-Schenn-Gunnarsson-Komisarek-Aulie.

Blueman
02-19-2011, 04:48 PM
What type of injury and when did you think he picked it up?

He was cut severely by a skate..

MindzEye
02-19-2011, 04:51 PM
I'm aware of that injury, but he's scored at the same shitty rate after his return as he was before. Same shitty rate as last year.

That injury doesn't appear to be effecting him at all, his skating is fine.

Blueman
02-19-2011, 05:15 PM
based on Phaneuf's own comments around the all star break.. I respectively disagree.

MindzEye
02-19-2011, 05:18 PM
Well, he's producing at pretty much the same rate as he did for the 14 months before the injury...so if it's effecting him, it sure isn't showing up on the score sheet.

leafman101
02-19-2011, 05:25 PM
He has 7 points in his last 13 games.

MindzEye
02-19-2011, 05:26 PM
Small sample size much?

leafman101
02-19-2011, 05:29 PM
Fine then he has 253 points in 446 games.

Just saying there seems to be a correlation between him feeling better after the injury, and starting to play better. Maybe it won't continue, maybe it will. But its all we got.

Montana
02-19-2011, 05:32 PM
It's one thing for Phaneuf to have struggled last season given the tumultuous season that the Flames were mired in and the supposed dressing room divide that emerged by the mid-way point of the year,


Agreed.......although even last year, once he got settled in here, he produced at a solid rate down the stretch (8points in his final 15 games, 44pt pace)



but it's another for him to have continued to regress offensively in an entirely new atmosphere in which he has been given every opportunity to succeed.


...unfortunately that only amounted to 11 games though, before he got injured.



Then when he returned from injury he sucked balls for a good month and a half, but since then he's back to producing at a similar level (7pts last 13 games, 44pt pace) as he did to end last year.



If he can at least play at the level he did to end last year/the last month..........we'll be fine.

Montana
02-19-2011, 05:36 PM
These next 20+ games, should be pretty telling, one way or the other.

MindzEye
02-19-2011, 05:40 PM
These next 20+ games, should be pretty telling, one way or the other.

Agreed

JaysCyYoung
02-19-2011, 05:43 PM
Maybe I've been too hard on Dion's production in Toronto so far, but I just haven't seen the dynamic all-world defenceman that he was in Calgary, and that's got to be disappointing given that this was probably the first guy since the Sundin trade where the Leafs could have legitimately claimed to have acquired a young stud via trade.

I'm willing to be patient and see how he finishes the season though.

axlsalinger
02-19-2011, 06:16 PM
Just more evidence that you have to draft your own star players. You can obviously trade for very good players, but legit young stars are rarely available simply because teams don't make them available. We got very lucky with Sundin. I haven't written off Erik Johnson. This isn't an exact science.

But we have seen ample evidence to explain why Phil Kessel and Dion Phaneuf were made available. There are serious flaws and probably a lack of character there in both cases. We lost the Kessel trade, we won the Phaneuf trade because we gave up so little and Phaneuf and Aulie are still the best assets moved by either team.

But I'd say the salient point is one made earlier in the thread (I think it was by M.E.) - how many games has Dion Phaneuf been the best player on the ice? I can't think of very many. Even when he's been good, he hasn't been close to elite this season and he hasn't been elite even in single games very often at all. For $6.5M as a team captain and elite player all of his first 4 seasons in the league, Mbow is right. We need Phaneuf to be an elite player and contribute more than he has contributed, or we're still stuck without any legit stars to build around.

JaysCyYoung
02-19-2011, 06:20 PM
We lost the Kessel trade

How do you figure? We won't know for another decade in all likelyhood.

axlsalinger
02-19-2011, 06:25 PM
How do you figure? We won't know for another decade in all likelyhood.

Fair enough, it's definitely too early to determine the winner. I'm just saying that right now, it looks really bad for us.

JaysCyYoung
02-19-2011, 06:28 PM
A player who has been a healthy scratch many times this season and scored less than half of what Kessel has scored, and a marginal prospect on Boston's end makes things look really bad for us? The way the Leafs are playing Boston won't even get one of the Elite Five this year with the other first round draft pick that the Leafs sent their way. Things are starting to look really good for the Leafs in that trade.

Montana
02-19-2011, 06:35 PM
Man......it's a real shame how things turned out, because that had the potential to be one hell of a steal for us.





if only he'd gotten us a real goaltender to start last year.

da_next_kid
02-19-2011, 06:57 PM
A player who has been a healthy scratch many times this season and scored less than half of what Kessel has scored, and a marginal prospect on Boston's end makes things look really bad for us?

Wouldn't it be more astute to compare Kessel's rookie season to Seguin's rookie season, but all in all, it's not looking like that bad of a trade, only one of Boston's two first round picks has to bust for the trade to be even. Folks just love draft picks.

axlsalinger
02-19-2011, 07:05 PM
Totally agree with your first point. Seguin just turned 19, I am not worried about him at all, but time will tell. As for the second, it's not about the draft picks, it's about the lack of character, physicality, playmaking, leadership, $5.4 million cap hit, Houdini act in big games, and lengthy goal-less droughts and milk carton appearances throughout significant stretches of the season.

Bleedsblue&white
02-20-2011, 05:14 PM
Yeah but...you have Axl Rose as your avatar; your argument is invalid.

blkngldbabe
03-15-2011, 05:39 PM
http://i52.tinypic.com/2ufeuf6.jpg

Love it. Made by a forum member at a football site I visit.

Sam Carrick
03-27-2015, 08:46 AM
Phaneuf is a top 4, big-hitting, offensively oriented defenceman who Toronto has to use as a number 1 shutdown guy. That's why his numbers aren't great and why people hate him--he's not being used right.

corksens
03-27-2015, 08:49 AM
lol.

LeafGm
03-27-2015, 10:39 AM
I'm not sure why a four year-old thread got bumped, but it was interesting to read through it. There were some pretty prescient comments from a lot of posters, some serious denial from Metalleaf and leafman101...and wow, was teeds completely off the mark, or what?

leafman101
03-27-2015, 10:58 AM
The sad part is Phaneuf has taken a step back even from 2011. Now the concern isn't just his offense.

leafman101
03-27-2015, 11:00 AM
In fairness though, Phaneuf did follow 2010-11 up with two good offensive seasons.

Metalleaf
03-27-2015, 11:34 AM
Yeah no one saw this kind of fall coming. It's mind boggling.

MindzEye
03-27-2015, 11:36 AM
Yeah no one saw this kind of fall coming. It's mind boggling.

Yep. Phaneuf shut me up with a few good seasons in a row where he was solid offensively and very good defensively. His play this season has been inexcusable though.

Volcanologist
03-27-2015, 12:09 PM
He's a goner. Uneven play aside, there can be no question Phaneuf has been a dismal failure as a captain and leader.

LeafGm
03-27-2015, 12:21 PM
In fairness though, Phaneuf did follow 2010-11 up with two good offensive seasons.
True enough. 9 goals and 44 points in the season after this thread, followed up by 15-goal, 47-point pace in the lockout-shortened season.

It is still funny to read this thread though. A lot of us are pretty harsh with Phaneuf over his play in the 2010-11 season. And then the same posters (myself included) bent over backwards to praise him and offer excuses for his level of play last year, when he played even worse than he did in 2010/11. I guess that was partly due to the good two preceding seasons, and partly due to an intense desire for Phaneuf to work out here as a key piece of the core.


He's a goner. Uneven play aside, there can be no question Phaneuf has been a dismal failure as a captain and leader.
Agreed. I'll be surprised if he doesn't find some success as a supporting player somewhere else, but he can't stay here. Burke and Wilson doomed the guy by first anointing him as our captain and a legitimate #1 defenseman 10 minutes after he arrived, and then Nonis put the final nail in his coffin by giving him the massive contract extension.

Pronger84
03-27-2015, 12:40 PM
Yeah no one saw this kind of fall coming. It's mind boggling.

I always thought they would collapse because a) they do it annually b) their style of play isn't successful... that being said I wasn't expecting them to drop from home ice to a lottery position that quickly though either.

Pronger84
03-27-2015, 12:42 PM
The sad part is Phaneuf has taken a step back even from 2011. Now the concern isn't just his offense.

I feel the problem with Dion is he's gotten far away from what makes him successful which his open ice bombs and his shot... he rarely hits like that anymore, and when he does shoot it typically misses the net.

Leafin'
03-27-2015, 04:34 PM
The entire team has been shit.

When we get rid of we will really need Rielly or Gardiner to step up in a big way. If they don't we are in for another shit year next season. If they do want to tear down and rebuild the team Phaneuf should be one of the 1st they move.

I really hope we get some good returns.

mbow30
03-28-2015, 02:09 AM
How did this get pulled up?

Random.

LeafGm
03-28-2015, 09:17 AM
How did this get pulled up?

Random.
A new poster, "Sam Carrick", is dredging up 3-4 year old threads for some reason. I'm not really sure what his deal is.

Metalleaf
03-28-2015, 12:58 PM
Necroing old threads should be a board offence

UWHabs
03-28-2015, 02:45 PM
Necroing old threads should be a board offence

Punishable by death, or being forced to watch all the remaining Leafs games.

CTheBigPicture
03-28-2015, 02:49 PM
Punishable by death, or being forced to watch all the remaining Leafs games.

Before Wom says it:

Same thing!

blacksheep
03-28-2015, 03:33 PM
In fairness though, Phaneuf did follow 2010-11 up with two good offensive seasons.

In fairness, though... who the fvck cares what he once did?
Yashin once got 94 points and a Calder nomination, in fairness. Fvck me.
Trade his sorry ass out, so he can play on someone else's third line, where he'd be far more effective. Put the "C" on someone else's sweater.