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Killer93
12-07-2013, 09:38 PM
Discuss.

MindzEye
12-07-2013, 09:39 PM
Dealt with a piss load of injuries, but I'm not at all thrilled with how he has the team playing. Lazy, stupid, unprepared, mistake prone hockey.

ForeverTML
12-07-2013, 09:43 PM
Mark Fraser

That is all.

Volcanologist
12-07-2013, 09:44 PM
Carlyle's certainly not going anywhere with the team in the playoff conversation.

that said, if they keep playing like this they will not make the playoffs. Bernier and Reimer would have to be superhuman the rest of the way.

Artnes
12-07-2013, 09:44 PM
As long as we tread water it won't happen. It will take a bad run to force Nonis's hand and that hasn't happened yet

hockeylover
12-07-2013, 09:45 PM
Dealt with a piss load of injuries, but I'm not at all thrilled with how he has the team playing. Lazy, stupid, unprepared, mistake prone hockey.

This, so much this. Disgusting.

ForeverTML
12-07-2013, 09:45 PM
We've had a 'bad' run for the last month and a bit. Just look at our record and play. Its horrid.

Injuries aside, the product is horrid.

MapleLeafBlueJayBoy
12-07-2013, 09:52 PM
Dealt with a piss load of injuries, but I'm not at all thrilled with how he has the team playing. Lazy, stupid, unprepared, mistake prone hockey.

This a thousand times!

Plus throw in a Fraser, Ranger and his 4th line usage. He isn't pushing the right buttons at all.

leafman101
12-07-2013, 09:53 PM
No point in firing him. The Leafs are playing through some tough injuries right now. Not easy to play non-sloppy hockey with arguably your two best centers out. With Lupul out too they are playing without half of their top 6 forwards.

Changing coaches isn't going to help.

ForeverTML
12-07-2013, 09:53 PM
We have several components of last year's team still and the PK looks like utter shiite. I think its a case of a team tuning the coach out.

Same exact thing happened with the ducks and he was fired.

Artnes
12-07-2013, 09:55 PM
Bring back Quinn? But the fat version

Killer93
12-07-2013, 09:55 PM
Mark Fraser and useless plugs on bottom 6 as oppose to young hungry players

leafman101
12-07-2013, 09:57 PM
Mark Fraser and useless plugs on bottom 6 as oppose to young hungry players

How do you figure that? Smith, Holland, Ashton and D'Amigo are all playing.

The problem isn't that guys like Ashton aren't playing. The problem is who they have to replace aren't playing.

MikeRofalis
12-07-2013, 10:01 PM
Signed. Watching this team is too stressful to watch to enjoy it.

hockeylover
12-07-2013, 11:48 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ba7_BsFCYAANX8W.jpg

Game Notes...

axlsalinger
12-08-2013, 03:51 AM
Honestly thought this was a joke thread. We always hate to use injuries as an excuse, but seriously, all of a team's centers? On a team that was weak at the position to begin with? On a night they won the game?

Way, way, WAAAAAY too early for this.

Montana
12-08-2013, 04:53 AM
Best coach we've had since Quinn, easily (imo) a top 10 coach in the NHL.....absolutely preposterous to even consider firing the guy.

rated
12-08-2013, 08:41 AM
Honestly thought this was a joke thread. We always hate to use injuries as an excuse, but seriously, all of a team's centers? On a team that was weak at the position to begin with? On a night they won the game?

Way, way, WAAAAAY too early for this.

For real. This thread is silly and it's pretty much because of Fraser this thread exists. Can't fire a guy because of fraser a lone lol

Leafovic
12-08-2013, 08:46 AM
Killer, ForeverTML, HL and MLBJ..the drama queens of forum ice. It is tough to read your guys comments during game-day threads. I know you guys are in the moment and we all get angry/annoyed sometimes..but toning it down a bit would help.

MindzEye
12-08-2013, 08:57 AM
Killer, ForeverTML, HL and MLBJ..the drama queens of forum ice.

Oh, the ironing.

Hoss
12-08-2013, 08:59 AM
This is drunken rage.... or maybe a tipsy tantrum.

We started out gangbusters, and the injuries have caused us to simply have to move so many things around that we are not comfortable. Do I wish the defense would tighten up? sure, Is Fraser playing too much? sure? but to Fire Carlyle? come on.

PKForce81
12-08-2013, 09:18 AM
Well this one is a shocker...not! Coaches make mistakes, sometimes very bad ones..There isn't a perfect one out there. It'd take less than a year for you guys to get going again..There's always something we can complain about. The system sucks, 3rd liners like we used to have, young guys not being played enough..and so on. We have many injuries so at least if we went on a big losing streak while with a full lineup it'd be much more understandable. This is just pathetic.

Our d is a big mess right now(Franson cost us at least 2 goals last night and god knows how many in other games) and when Randy used to bench Franson most of us were against him and couldn't understand what he was doing. Now Franson is messing up even more and i wish he'd be benched(i honestly can't wait to get rid of this guy, besides using him on PP because of his shot, he's useless). Everyone is frustrated with the way the team is playing but threads like this make the forum look bad imo(it's something you'd expect at the other forums, not here). Anyways, we're not far from getting back on track(some of these young guys are making us much more competitive out there). The shot total against us isn't anything i'd be worried about simply because as ME pointed out they're not as important as quality of those shots and on most nights we're better or pretty close to even with our opposition.

Wayward DP
12-08-2013, 09:33 AM
The Fraser thing really bugs me. But compared to his body of work, seems tough to justify a firing based on that. And the fourth line. But still.

Wayward DP
12-08-2013, 09:33 AM
Who would we replace him with that would be any better? Quinn? Can't think of anyone else. Ain't bringing back Wilson...

MindzEye
12-08-2013, 09:42 AM
I don't necessarily support firing him at this point, but I do see the type of lethargic hockey and puzzling personnel decisions that lead to a firing. At some point shortly, Nonis is going to have to step in and take Randy's toys away like he did with Smithson.

Wayward DP
12-08-2013, 09:59 AM
I don't necessarily support firing him at this point, but I do see the type of lethargic hockey and puzzling personnel decisions that lead to a firing. At some point shortly, Nonis is going to have to step in and take Randy's toys away like he did with Smithson.

Yes, more of this.

And in fairness there are concerning signs with our effort levels. Although sometimes I do wonder if what I'm seeing is a 'lack of effort' or its 'part of the system'.

Killer93
12-08-2013, 10:00 AM
Its not drama; playing Fraser and Ranger over Liles and Rielly is complete stupidity

MindzEye
12-08-2013, 10:07 AM
Yes, more of this.

And in fairness there are concerning signs with our effort levels. Although sometimes I do wonder if what I'm seeing is a 'lack of effort' or its 'part of the system'.

With the way we get out worked along the walls, I don't think the system is to blame for that.

Wayward DP
12-08-2013, 10:10 AM
With the way we get out worked along the walls, I don't think the system is to blame for that.

Yeah, that's particularly troubling, especially given how successful we were in that area last season. It just seems like we refuse to be first to loose pucks, or win individual battles along the wall. And everything torpedoes from there.

leafman101
12-08-2013, 10:17 AM
The Leafs aren't playing poorly because of their bottom d pair, and their 4th line. I'm sorry but those just aren't the problems here. They had the exact same shitty bottom pair and 4th line last year and the first 1/4 of this season when they were one of the top teams in the whole league.

They have no centers. Remember how awesome they were when they had centers? That effects everything. Center is one of the most important positions on the ice. No coach has an answer to this.

And the crazy part is, for all the shit they have been getting from everyone they are 6-6-3 since Bolland went down. They are holding their heads above water. People seriously want to fire a coach because they are playing .500 hockey while battling through key injuries?

PKForce81
12-08-2013, 10:43 AM
The Leafs aren't playing poorly because of their bottom d pair, and their 4th line. I'm sorry but those just aren't the problems here. They had the exact same shitty bottom pair and 4th line last year and the first 1/4 of this season when they were one of the top teams in the whole league.

They have no centers. Remember how awesome they were when they had centers? That effects everything. Center is one of the most important positions on the ice. No coach has an answer to this.

And the crazy part is, for all the shit they have been getting from everyone they are 6-6-3 since Bolland went down. They are holding their heads above water. People seriously want to fire a coach because they are playing .500 hockey while battling through key injuries?

As much as i like Bozie and do think he would help us overall, he's not going to help Franson, Fraser and Ranger play better. In Franson's case, why does he look like he doesn't give a shit so often? Playing like it's an All Star Game..no big deal if i skate slow, aren't aggressive enough or just take my time with the puck as if there's nobody around trying to take it away.

Besides the back end, our 3rd and 4th lines haven't been good enough(too much pressure on top 2). With 4th line, they needed to put guys like Ashton for some decent puck possession instead of both Orr and McLaren(i think we all agree on that one) Smith and D'Amigo(so far) have been good choices too...but yea our d being brutal and us not getting enough offensive zone time(due to playing too many floater types, tough guys, are the reasons imo. Even when Bozie comes back, you'll see similar...You can't have too many guys **** up and expect to win games..simple as that.

PKForce81
12-08-2013, 10:45 AM
Oh and leafman, we were allowing a lot even with Bolland and Bozie in. Something like this was bound to happen. It's the other stuff that's wrong so i agree with the rest on this.

leafman101
12-08-2013, 10:47 AM
The Leafs made the playoffs last year, almost upset a team that made the cup finals in 7 games in the first round, and were one of the best teams in the NHL period to start this season before all the injuries. With guys like Franson, Fraser and Raymond playing.

The 3rd d pair/bottom 6 isn't the problem here. Its who those guys are having to replace. Three of our top 6 forwards have been out of the lineup. Including arguably the teams top 2 centers (top 3 for at least 4 of the games). Those are the issues that have an impact.

leafman101
12-08-2013, 10:47 AM
Oh and leafman, we were allowing a lot even with Bolland and Bozie in. Something like this was bound to happen. It's the other stuff that's wrong so i agree with the rest on this.

We were allowing 30 shots a game. And lots of it from the outside. Not 40/50. Its been unarguably worse the last month.

Thats what happens when you don't have centers. Ever notice how pretty much every GM ever states that you build a team down the middle. This is exactly why.

That isn't to say that the team is perfect when healthy. But why the hell should we expect them to be perfect? They are a young team that is just starting to figure things out.

Wayward DP
12-08-2013, 10:48 AM
The Leafs aren't playing poorly because of their bottom d pair, and their 4th line. I'm sorry but those just aren't the problems here. They had the exact same shitty bottom pair and 4th line last year and the first 1/4 of this season when they were one of the top teams in the whole league.

They have no centers. Remember how awesome they were when they had centers? That effects everything. Center is one of the most important positions on the ice. No coach has an answer to this.

And the crazy part is, for all the shit they have been getting from everyone they are 6-6-3 since Bolland went down. They are holding their heads above water. People seriously want to fire a coach because they are playing .500 hockey while battling through key injuries?

Not to mention missing Bozak for most of that stretch as well.

Not many teams will lose 2 of their top 3 centres for extended stretches and not see a decline in play.

Jay McClement or Trevor Smith are currently our 2nd best centre. I think that speaks for itself.

PKForce81
12-08-2013, 10:49 AM
What are some of the stats with Bozie and Bolland in the lineup..I remember us winning some really close games though. I honestly think this is just a coincidence..I mean, of course they'll help(PK would probably improve too) but overall the biggest issue still seems that we have way too many dumb guys on the back.

Wayward DP
12-08-2013, 10:50 AM
What are some of the stats with Bozie and Bolland in the lineup..I remember us winning some really close games though. I honestly think this is just a coincidence..I mean, of course they'll help(PK would probably improve too) but overall the biggest issue still seems that we have way too many dumb guys on the back.

Fraser's an issue, okay. But most teams don't win and lose on the strength of their #6 d-man. How many forwards not named JVR, Kessel, or Kadri have scored in the past few games?

leafman101
12-08-2013, 10:52 AM
What are some of the stats with Bozie and Bolland in the lineup..I remember us winning some really close games though. I honestly think this is just a coincidence..I mean, of course they'll help(PK would probably improve too) but overall the biggest issue still seems that we have way too many dumb guys on the back.

I'm not saying those guys haven't been A problem. But your bottom pair dmen just aren't as impactful as playing Trevor Smith, Peter Holland and Jay McClement as your top 2/3 centers. In any way.

The centers have to support the puck in all 3 zones. They are key on playing down low and regaining possession. They are key on the break out. They are key in the neutral zone. They are key on faceoffs, on the pk. Everywhere. You need top 3 centers way more than bottom pair d.

PKForce81
12-08-2013, 11:01 AM
Fraser's an issue, okay. But most teams don't win and lose on the strength of their #6 d-man. How many forwards not named JVR, Kessel, or Kadri have scored in the past few games?

It's not just Fraser though. Franson and Ranger get pretty good minutes and they've been just as bad(at times even worse). That play on the tying goal i think it was(Franson goes towards a player that was already covered by multiple guys) and there's a feed for an easy goal(he should have read that play better...and he makes those mistakes way too often).

I'd seriously get Rielly in to replace Franson and someone else for Ranger(maybe Liles). We just need better decision makers out there. Some of the games we've been up by a few only to lose the game because of dumb penalties and turnovers in our zone. Pathetic.

Habsy
12-08-2013, 11:05 AM
Carlyle is a good coach, careful what you wish for.

leafman101
12-08-2013, 11:07 AM
They certainly didn't cough up leads like this before Bozak/Bolland went down.

WellPlayed
12-08-2013, 11:35 AM
Easy guys, he's still 10x better than Maurice and 5x better than Wilson. It's been a tough stretch with some key injuries. But yeah if he could sort his shit with Fraser and constantly dressing 2 goons I'd be happier.

PKForce81
12-08-2013, 11:37 AM
They certainly didn't cough up leads like this before Bozak/Bolland went down.

I agree with that 'we don't have to be perfect' part since yes we are a young team and we'll make mistakes. I just looked at our first 10 games and noticed what i already remember. Five games where we won by 1 goal, 2 games where we took teams to OT or further. We beat Ottawa in that wild one 5-4 and then shitty Edmonton 6-5. Remember those games? We simply had a bit more offensive power to manage things better..Defensively we were still a mess. And remember how many great saves our goalies had to make to give us some of those games? That's what i'm talking about. Yes we won't be perfect and we don't have to be, but if we want to improve on last year's playoffs, we must have better decision makers on the back end. Another Gunnar type would be so awesome right now. Just keeping things simple and making good decisions with the puck.

Habsy
12-08-2013, 11:44 AM
Easy guys, he's still 10x better than Maurice and 5x better than Wilson. It's been a tough stretch with some key injuries. But yeah if he could sort us his shit with Fraser and constantly dressing 2 goons I'd be happier.

It begs the question...

If you want Carlyle fired, who the heck is out there available that is better than him? Laviolette?

I don't think you're going to find better than Carlyle.

ForeverTML
12-08-2013, 11:58 AM
We havent played 60 full minutes in maybe more than 5 games this year. On the other hand, ive seen other teams play a good 60 against us far to many times. Its not early in the season anymore and its the same ol get shootout, look slow, rely on the goalie routine that is getting tiring. I am all for the W, but the way we get wins is ridiculous. Is it too much to ask to be able to play a strong defensive game?

Drama queen my ass.

leafman101
12-08-2013, 12:17 PM
I am all for the W, but the way we get wins is ridiculous. Is it too much to ask to be able to play a strong defensive game?


Without 2-3 of your top 3 centers? Yes.

Pure drama. The Leafs are battling through some tough injuries and are getting points more than they are not getting points.

leafman101
12-08-2013, 12:20 PM
I agree with that 'we don't have to be perfect' part since yes we are a young team and we'll make mistakes. I just looked at our first 10 games and noticed what i already remember. Five games where we won by 1 goal, 2 games where we took teams to OT or further. We beat Ottawa in that wild one 5-4 and then shitty Edmonton 6-5. Remember those games? We simply had a bit more offensive power to manage things better..Defensively we were still a mess. And remember how many great saves our goalies had to make to give us some of those games? That's what i'm talking about. Yes we won't be perfect and we don't have to be, but if we want to improve on last year's playoffs, we must have better decision makers on the back end. Another Gunnar type would be so awesome right now. Just keeping things simple and making good decisions with the puck.

No one is saying they don't need to improve in any areas. Its just this thought that the team is some kind of diaster and needs to push the panic button because they are playing .500 hockey without arguably their top 2 centers is ridiculous.

The problem with this team right now isn't their bottom pair dmen. Its AHLers playing as 2 of their top 3 centers. I just don't understand how anyone could think the reverse.

Mark Fraser only played 11 minutes ES last night. Same with Cody Franson.

zeke
12-08-2013, 01:23 PM
I'd have no problem firing him.

When he started i loved that he seemed to value playing the best players and a scoring 3rd line, but now he's gone back to overvaluing plugs and grit to an extreme degree.

And he's no tactical geniis either.

ForeverTML
12-08-2013, 01:27 PM
Without 2-3 of your top 3 centers? Yes.

Pure drama. The Leafs are battling through some tough injuries and are getting points more than they are not getting points.
Enough with the excuses. We played the same with Bozak and Lupul on the ice as well.

leafman101
12-08-2013, 02:25 PM
With Bolland: 10-5-0 (109 point pace)
With Bolland and Bozak: 7-4-0 (104 point pace)
Without Bolland and Bozak: 9-7-2 (91 point pace)
Without Bolland: 6-6-3 (82 point pace)

Sorry, but its just not the same. Its not an excuse its the a circumstance that every team in the league would struggle with.

ForeverTML
12-08-2013, 02:33 PM
We havent played the samewith Bolland out. But the games with the rest of the group in tact, we looked like we were chasing the game. The on ice product has been the same with little to no improvement to play to our capabilities like we had done so last year. Randy has said this himself. We havent found our identity from last year at all.

leafman101
12-08-2013, 02:38 PM
GF/G
With Bozak/Bolland: 3.27
With Bolland or Bozak:2.95
Without Bozak/Bolland: 2.32

GA/G
With Bozak/Bolland: 2.63
With Bolland or Bozak:2.9
Without Bozak or Bolland: 2.68


So defensively they are doing about the same. Meanwhile they are scoring a goal less per game offensively.

leafman101
12-08-2013, 02:40 PM
We havent played the samewith Bolland out. But the games with the rest of the group in tact, we looked like we were chasing the game. The on ice product has been the same with little to no improvement to play to our capabilities like we had done so last year. Randy has said this himself. We havent found our identity from last year at all.

Centers are pretty damn important to playing solid hockey. Bolland and Bozak aren't just a couple of average players. They are a couple of average players at one of the most important positions in hockey with no replacment that can remotely come close to filling the job.

Pretending like missing 2 of your top 3 centers shouldn't impact how solid a team plays is just odd.

leafman101
12-08-2013, 02:47 PM
GA/G
Bolland: 2.40
Without Bolland: 2.93

Wayward DP
12-08-2013, 02:52 PM
Bolland also has a pretty crazy off zone start vs finish %ge. something like 37-50 too.

leafman101
12-08-2013, 02:53 PM
PK
With Bolland : 87.1%
Without Bolland 83.1%

JackBurton
12-08-2013, 03:08 PM
Best coach we've had since Quinn, easily (imo) a top 10 coach in the NHL.....absolutely preposterous to even consider firing the guy.

Do you honestly think he's been top 10 this year?

manofleafs
12-08-2013, 03:10 PM
randy has only coached them for 95 games over 3 seasons and not even one full season. It is a little premature for sure to let him go right now.

mbow30
12-08-2013, 06:45 PM
whaaaa the leafs are 12th in the league in wins, and would be in the playoffs if the saeson ended today, and are beatin gteams, but they aren't doing it in a way that i like.. FIRE THE COACH.

we went through this nonsense for years and years with quinn.

it resulted in john ferguson, and then cliff fletcher as gm. it resulted in paul maurice and then ron wilson as coach.

we've barked up that tree.

bottom line -- carlyle gets resutls and his record speaks for itself.

at some point in time we'll reach a point where he should be fired.

right now, not even 100 games into his leafs career, in which he has led the team to its most successful season in 7 years and almost guided the team to a 7 game series win over a team only a few years removed from a cup victory (and which ultimately represented the east last year) is not that time.

Killer93
12-08-2013, 07:00 PM
Fraser scratched tonight, maybe Randy saw the thread after the Sens game? :D

MapleLeafBlueJayBoy
12-08-2013, 11:45 PM
Train is still moving.

worm
12-09-2013, 02:57 PM
Best coach we've had since Quinn, easily (imo) a top 10 coach in the NHL.....absolutely preposterous to even consider firing the guy.

for the top team money wise this is unacceptable IMO

JaysCyYoung
12-09-2013, 03:59 PM
They should bring Quinner out of retirement.

Montana
12-09-2013, 05:39 PM
whaaaa the leafs are 12th in the league in wins, and would be in the playoffs if the saeson ended today, and are beatin gteams, but they aren't doing it in a way that i like.. FIRE THE COACH.

we went through this nonsense for years and years with quinn.

it resulted in john ferguson, and then cliff fletcher as gm. it resulted in paul maurice and then ron wilson as coach.

we've barked up that tree.

bottom line -- carlyle gets resutls and his record speaks for itself.

at some point in time we'll reach a point where he should be fired.

right now, not even 100 games into his leafs career, in which he has led the team to its most successful season in 7 years and almost guided the team to a 7 game series win over a team only a few years removed from a cup victory (and which ultimately represented the east last year) is not that time.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/c26b20d3523d58572c00a59fabfc6650/tumblr_mtzmeqC16Z1qcga5ro1_500.gif

worm
12-09-2013, 06:04 PM
do not accept mediocrity

that doesn't win you cups

soco22
12-09-2013, 06:13 PM
Can anyone name someone better that we could replace him with today, if he were fired?

Don't say ruff. His career was made off of elite goaltending.

Wayward DP
12-09-2013, 06:14 PM
Can anyone name someone better that we could replace him with today, if he were fired?

Don't say ruff. His career was made off of elite goaltending.

Laviolette would be the only one I could think of. Even that's debatable.

Carlyle's a damn good coach, not so long ago everybody was blowing steam up his ass. They'll get over this slump, and people will simmer down.

hockeylover
12-09-2013, 06:18 PM
I'd rather have Carlyle than Laviolette. I just wish he'd quit with the Fraser shit.

Metalleaf
12-09-2013, 06:25 PM
I'd rather have Carlyle than Laviolette. I just wish he'd quit with the Fraser shit.

He did last night, so there is hope.

LeafGm
12-09-2013, 08:16 PM
Yeah, I'm not on board this particular bandwagon. Carlyle steered this ship back to the playoffs for the first time in a decade, and to within minutes of beating a team that's owned us for years in round one. And although it hasn't been pretty so far, we're still comfortably in a playoff spot in the second week of December this season, in spite of an absurd number of injuries to our forward group.

Does he drive me insane with some of his roster choices? Sure he does. I wish he'd stop playing Fraser and Ranger over Rielly or Gardiner. I wish he'd ice a fourth line that's actually capable of playing hockey. But I've got bad news for everyone---the grass isn't necessarily greener on the other side. No matter who we have standing behind our bench, odds are they're going to love a few players that most of us hate, and sit some players that we think should be in the lineup. It's been that way with every Leaf coach in my lifetime.

And there are some reassuring signs. Gardiner's a regular in the lineup again, is getting big minutes and is starting to produce again. Fraser sat out the last game. Holland got more minutes on the weekend, and when he played well, Carlyle rewarded him with even more ice-time. So, we may end up with the kind of lineup we all want sooner rather than later.

Montana
12-09-2013, 08:23 PM
do not accept mediocrity

that doesn't win you cups


(a) He's not remotely mediocre.

(b) He won a Cup.

mbow30
12-09-2013, 09:19 PM
i think some of the griping over fraser is way overblown. sometimes you need guys in the lineup who can stand up to the other team's forecheck. and this team hasn't sucked shit defensively for the past month because of mark fraser, as much as you guys want to blame him.

basically everybody on this side of phaneuf has been pretty bad in the leafs' zone (except for maybe gardiner). the team's centers are badly overmatched, and the wingers haven't done a very good job of clearing the zone. they play run and gun with basically no support. just watch how many times raymond and jvr cause d-zone pressure because of their cherrypicking. kessel, too, from time to time.

the only guy who has been able to establish any sort of consistent forecheck is clarkson, but his lack of speed makes him a bad fit with just about everybody else on the roster.

this really isn't a carlyle issue. they were able to catch a lot of teams by surprise and with their speed playing loose hockey earlier in the season. the league has caught on, and they aren't tightening the ship. but i have no doubt htat carlyle will straighten that out.

he has 1 losing season in 15 years as a coach. and, had he not been fired, it might well not have ended up being a losing season (anaheim finished just 2 games under .500).

the guy's a great coach.

ForeverTML
12-09-2013, 09:31 PM
I for one am glad he finally decided (or forced by Nonis maybe) to make some changes to his lineup especially in the bottom six personnel. Lets see if he has fully learned and doesnt resort to bringing back Fraser since we lost last game.

And, his record is 48-49 with the leafs so far btw.

Montana
12-09-2013, 09:53 PM
42-29-8 over the the last two years.

Killer93
01-09-2014, 07:52 PM
Gonna bump this up, seems we have more supporters

ForeverTML
01-09-2014, 07:52 PM
HEH

MapleLeafBlueJayBoy
01-09-2014, 07:53 PM
Team has clearly quit.

MindzEye
01-09-2014, 07:54 PM
Dealt with a piss load of injuries, but I'm not at all thrilled with how he has the team playing. Lazy, stupid, unprepared, mistake prone hockey.

This is me a month ago. We're still playing lazy, stupid, unprepared, mistake prone hockey but with a mostly healthy lineup.

It's unemployment time for Randy.

zeke
01-09-2014, 07:55 PM
http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/web05/2012/9/8/17/anigif_enhanced-buzz-7918-1347140266-13.gif

ForeverTML
01-09-2014, 07:57 PM
53-53-13 over the last 3 years.

47-35-10 over the last 2 years.

Love seeing all the name calling and chastisting.

ForeverTML
01-09-2014, 08:08 PM
Leafs GM Dave Nonis addressed the future of his struggling club on Wednesday, making it clear he wasn’t going to make a change just for the sake of making a change.

“It’s not happening,” Nonis told the Toronto Sun about firing head coach Randy Carlyle, or shaking things up via trade. “We’re not making a move [player or coach] for the sake of making a move. We’re not trading a young player away that will erode our depth or take youth out of our lineup. We don’t do that.”

The Leafs have three wins in their last 13 and just one regulation win since Nov. 19. Wednesday’s 3-1 loss — at home — to the Florida Panthers was considered by many to be the low point of the season, but Nonis said anybody waiting for Carlyle to be fired was “going to be waiting a long time.”
All up to Nonis now. He's gotta pull a Ujiri and turn this around or else we can already kiss this season goodbye based on current play.

MikeRofalis
01-09-2014, 08:09 PM
I read we're on pace to give up the most shots in 20+ years.

ForeverTML
01-09-2014, 08:14 PM
Best coach we've had since Quinn, easily (imo) a top 10 coach in the NHL.....absolutely preposterous to even consider firing the guy.

Montana, what is your honest opinion based on current play.

blacksheep
01-09-2014, 08:17 PM
I'd love to wake up in the morning to the news that Randy's gone.

Hoss
01-09-2014, 09:14 PM
it might be a knee jerk reaction, and it is highly doubtful Nonis would do that sort of thing, but with this piss poor performance and this Holland thing, and now Gardiner for Fraser thing, Maybe Lieweke talks to Nonis.

Again though the only option would be Laviolette.... and he doesn't seem like a Nonis guy, but he does get short term results.

blacksheep
01-09-2014, 09:33 PM
Short term results is all we got with Randy. Six playoff games and part of a new season.

KingTucker
01-09-2014, 10:07 PM
1.5 years sure is a short shelf life for a coach but:


Carlyle seems to have "Prongeritis", where he thinks big guys on his team are going to replicate what Pronger did in Anaheim. He sees Mark Fraser as some huge stopper when he's horrid, just horrid.
His reluctance to play the kids is baffling. He's not really known as a vet caoch (correction welcome) and he has a real blind spot toward Gardiner, Rielly, Holland...all players that could help us win more than Orr, McLaren, Freaser, Franson...
He might be too aggressive for this group. It looks like this team has a lot of "quiet leaders" and Lupul/Kadri look like the shit-disturbers. Maybe they need a softer voice with a firm pimp hand to direct them.
Structure. Structure. Structure. This team lacks it all over. Players out of position, poor offensive breakouts, baffling line changes....

mbow30
01-09-2014, 10:09 PM
honestly, i think having lupul as a leader is a bit of a problem.

i can't say i'd be too upset if carlyle was let go at this point because things clearly aren't working... but i think certain problems run deeper than the coach.

ForeverTML
01-09-2014, 10:19 PM
what?

zeke
01-09-2014, 10:20 PM
btw, mbow, bozak does not have a coke problem.

mbow30
01-09-2014, 10:36 PM
btw, mbow, bozak does not have a coke problem.

i never said bozie does.

Montana
01-09-2014, 10:45 PM
I know Kadri does.

Killer93
01-09-2014, 10:46 PM
Phaneuf does I believe

MyNameIsJonas
01-09-2014, 10:46 PM
Kadri seems to have alot of problems.

wiseguy1
01-09-2014, 10:48 PM
Leafs had a good thing going last year, large majority of NHL teams couldn't handle their speed.

So Carlyle runs two speed demons with decent hockey skills out of town, MacArthur and Grabovski. Benches MacArthur at the beginning of the Bruins series, finally decides to play MacArthur and he turned out to be one of the best forwards of the series.

mbow30
01-09-2014, 10:49 PM
macarthur isn't a speed demon by any stretch, though he's a better skater than clarkson.

they miss grabovski, though. they miss his speed and they miss his work ethic.

Killer93
01-09-2014, 10:51 PM
Yea Mac wasn't a speed demon by any stretch, ill buy that argument with Grabo but not Mac. And Mbow hit it on the head, regardless of Grabo's stats that SOB worked his ass off night in and night out

wiseguy1
01-09-2014, 10:52 PM
macarthur isn't a speed demon by any stretch, though he's a better skater than clarkson.

they miss grabovski, though. they miss his speed and they miss his work ethic.

MacArthur can make plays at high speed, thats what is really good about him. The more I watch him, the more I am impressed with his skills. He is a bit inconsistent, and thats what has held back his career.

mbow30
01-09-2014, 10:55 PM
he's at his best when he plays with a chip on his shoulder. but he couldn't keep that up. at least, not in toronto.

when he had something to prove he went into the corners and attacked the net.

but he stopped doing that after his first year here.

BeLeafer
01-09-2014, 10:59 PM
MacArthur was a liability. He was sat for good reason and should have been benched long beforehand for all his floating. He had a good burst here when he got here, just like he has with the Sens, and then pretty much sucked the rest of the way. Dumping MacArthur is the least of this team's worries.

wiseguy1
01-09-2014, 11:21 PM
MacArthur got a decent contract for someone who was supposedly a bad player. So far its been a great deal for the Sens.

BeLeafer
01-09-2014, 11:34 PM
Contracts are always a great measure of a player's performance.

MindzEye
01-10-2014, 12:45 AM
macarthur isn't a speed demon by any stretch, though he's a better skater than clarkson.

they miss grabovski, though. they miss his speed and they miss his work ethic.

They miss 2009-2011 Grabo to an extent, yeah. With that said, Bolland brings a lot of what Grabo brought during those years (and more in a lot of areas)...and he should be back shortly.

leafman101
01-10-2014, 07:30 AM
They miss last years Grabo too. That guy never comes out flat. No matter how bad he is playing his feet are always moving and he is always working his ass off. Its infectious. They don't have a guy like that right now with Bolland out.

And last year they had a couple guys like that in Grabo and Komarov. No matter what night it was, what time they arrived the night before, whatever the excuse is, those guys motors were always going. And that really lifts a team up. The team has been flat way too often this year.

ForeverTML
01-10-2014, 07:40 AM
1.5 years sure is a short shelf life for a coach but:


Carlyle seems to have "Prongeritis", where he thinks big guys on his team are going to replicate what Pronger did in Anaheim. He sees Mark Fraser as some huge stopper when he's horrid, just horrid.
His reluctance to play the kids is baffling. He's not really known as a vet caoch (correction welcome) and he has a real blind spot toward Gardiner, Rielly, Holland...all players that could help us win more than Orr, McLaren, Freaser, Franson...
He might be too aggressive for this group. It looks like this team has a lot of "quiet leaders" and Lupul/Kadri look like the shit-disturbers. Maybe they need a softer voice with a firm pimp hand to direct them.
Structure. Structure. Structure. This team lacks it all over. Players out of position, poor offensive breakouts, baffling line changes....

Wilson was apparently a softer voice and look how that worked for him. It just didnt work. We need a coach that can rally this team, we need a Bab****.

And Randy's teams were touted as being the one of the most structured teams with a set strategy that worked. We are just not seeing that at all. I mean last night wasnt even worthy of a bush league team. It was not NHL hockey.

wiseguy1
01-10-2014, 07:42 AM
Contracts are always a great measure of a player's performance.

If you are really mediocre , you dont get one at all, and up in the KHL. Ask O'Byrne or Ian White...or...

zeke
01-10-2014, 09:36 AM
I just want the next guy to be a mature professional adult.

Wilson's and randy's constant stream of unfunny sarcastic childish cracks at players is unseemly and imo shows an insecurity and lack of real authority.

Not saying we need some hardass, but a mature adult would be nice.

corksens
01-10-2014, 09:45 AM
Meh. I think all coaches make dumb "dad joke" type cracks.

soco22
01-10-2014, 11:38 AM
I think the sarcasm is just the best way to deal with the media. If you do what JT did in NYR...you'll have the media up your ass. If you're a kiss ass like Maurice, you'll earn no ones respect and find yourself on the tsn panel.

zeke
01-10-2014, 11:58 AM
Pat Quinn wasn't a sarcastic twit.

and you never hear that kind of crap from the Babs or Hitch cokcs.

Habsy
01-10-2014, 01:28 PM
Trouble in Leafland?

da_next_kid
01-10-2014, 02:55 PM
I like Randy, I really do but the results just aren't there right now and we're in serious danger of missing the playoffs. Something needs to change.

LeafOfFaith
01-10-2014, 05:05 PM
Carlyle is the shit.

No, literally.

ForeverTML
01-10-2014, 05:17 PM
http://images.tsn.ca/images/stories/2014/01/10/leafsbench_3168-430x298.jpg

ForeverTML
01-10-2014, 05:18 PM
More stats:


@jonasTSN1050: Final 31 games under Ron Wilson: 13-15-3, 29 points (13 ROW). Past 31 games under Randy Carlyle: 11-15-5, 27 points (5 ROW).

Leafyblue
01-10-2014, 05:29 PM
I was wondering why Randy was let go before.


"This was an extremely difficult decision," said Executive Vice President/General Manager Bob Murray. "Randy is a terrific head coach, and did a tremendous job for us for six-plus seasons. We thank him greatly for his hard work and dedication to our franchise, not the least of which was a Stanley Cup championship. At this time, we simply felt a new voice was needed.

Wayward DP
01-10-2014, 05:32 PM
I was wondering why Randy was let go before.

After 6+ season, not barely 2...

TimHorton
01-10-2014, 06:21 PM
That quote is used for every coach fired, ever.

CH1
01-10-2014, 06:34 PM
That quote is used for every person fired, ever.

"Dear staff, it is with mixed emotions that...."

JackBurton
01-10-2014, 10:50 PM
Some coaches wear-out their welcome faster than others. Randy has done a shit, shit job.

In fact, he got no backlash from the game 7 debacle last season, but it was much more his fault than guys like Phaneuf and Reimer who got shit on so much for that.

I'm still dumbfounded by his "No Timout" decision and his ice-time management in that game.

Volcanologist
01-11-2014, 09:58 AM
I would like to see a more skilled roster iced, I'm tired of watching McClement getting overplayed and slugs like Fraser, Orr, McLaren etc getting minutes when we're obviously not intimidating anybody given our record the last 2+ months.

If Carlyle won't do that, then we need a coach who will.

I don't believe the Leafs are as bad as they have been the last couple of months based on talent. We've got a number of skilled scorers and we should be going back to the speed/counterpunch style that this roster can be successful with.

Habsy
01-11-2014, 10:46 AM
You can have Therrien, I'll take Carlyle.

JackBurton
01-11-2014, 10:58 AM
We're not playing our best lineup. that is the issue. This team should not miss the playoffs in the weak East. Randy's juggling ice-time and who he dresses has been odd all year. This is how you tank if you wanted to.

ForeverTML
01-11-2014, 11:00 AM
You can have Therrien, I'll take Carlyle.

remind me why was carbonneau fired exactly? Seemed like he had a good record.

mbow30
01-11-2014, 11:05 AM
I would like to see a more skilled roster iced, I'm tired of watching McClement getting overplayed and slugs like Fraser, Orr, McLaren etc getting minutes when we're obviously not intimidating anybody given our record the last 2+ months.

If Carlyle won't do that, then we need a coach who will.

I don't believe the Leafs are as bad as they have been the last couple of months based on talent. We've got a number of skilled scorers and we should be going back to the speed/counterpunch style that this roster can be successful with.

fraser has gotten into one game since december 17.

fraser mclaren has gotten into one game since december 17.

and it isn't like the leafs are the only team to dress an otherwise useless enforcer.

their top six forwards in ice time, in this order, are

jvr
bozak
kessel
lupul
raymond
kadri

the top three all play over twenty minutes a game

in terms of even strength time:

kessel
bozak
jvr
lupul
kadri
clarkson
raymond
(bolland)
kulemin
mcclement

pp time:

jvr
kessel
lupul
bozak
kadri
raymond
clarkson
(bolland)

carlyle plays the hell out of the team's top six. he plays them more than mcclement.

on the defensive side, he has spent the past month playing a six pack of phaneuf, gunnarsson, gardiner, franson, rielly and ranger.

no fraser. they haven't called up holzer.

they're playing their skill guys on the back end.

frankly, having rielly and franson, who are both on the ice for an alarming number of goals against, is killing them. you can't have two pairs that both allow a goal per game (rielly is around 3.8 goals per 60 mins, or about a goal per game on 18 minutes of ice time; franson is around 3 goal sper 60 minutes, which is about a goal per game).

as for them overplaying mcclement, look at the team leaders in goals against at 5 on 5 (in this order):

franson
rielly
kessel
jvr
kadri
lupul
raymond

on a per 60 basis

rielly
franson
lupul
kadri
jvr
bozak
kessel

the personnel decision argument is blown way out of proportion.

maybe carlyle's selling them a dud. maybe teams have figured out what made the leafs successful last year. maybe the players have tuned the coach out.

but the focus around here on the team's personnel decisions is misplaced. the leafs are playing the hell out of their players and, outside of hte bottom 6, feature a high skilled lineup that gets plenty of ice time.

they are only losing ice time insofar as they are playing total shit defensively. the top six forwards and bottom four defensemen have all been defensive zone liabilities, all season long, and it has shown up in a very tangible way in the goals against department.

maybe from a strategy perspective it's time to try something different (maybe even hiring a new coach).

but this team isn't losing because carlyle isn't playing his best players (he is. a lot.). or because he is overplaying mcclement (he isn't). or because he is playing mark fraser. or because he isn't playing his puck moving defensemen.

the leafs top guys have to be held accountable for that. they are not playing well.

it is absurd to think that giving peter holland a few extra minutes a game, or playing leivo instead of orr is the difference between this team being competitive, and what we have seen over the past month and a half.

zeke
01-11-2014, 11:08 AM
There isn't one element of the game where this team exhibits good coaching. Not one.

In fact, you give me the worst coach in nhl history and i struggle to see which element of the game he could make worse.

Wayward DP
01-11-2014, 11:10 AM
Don't we have a top-5 PP in the league?

leafman101
01-11-2014, 11:16 AM
The concerning thing for me is that this is very similar to what Washington went through a few years ago with Boudreau. He tried to turn them from a run and gun team to a winning team. The Caps players didn't buy in at all and it was a disaster and he was fired. Of course Washington went back to their offensive first style and hasn't been able to get over the hump, and Boudreau proved he was a good coach and got Anaheim back to being a legit contender.

At some point you want players who hold themselves accountable and are willing to do whatever to win. IMO it would be much more positive for the long term success of this team if they were able to come out of this, than if they end up having to fire Carlyle.

zeke
01-11-2014, 11:18 AM
Stop being a dumbass, mbow.

Mcclement plays 17-18 minutes a game.

Our 4th line has been led by this group of turds: orr 34gms, mclaren 21, smithson 17, bodie 14gms

When kids like holland and damigo show 3rd line play or better he shuffles them down to 5m 4th line rols.

He plays fraser in half his games, gleason on his top pair, and benches gardiner not once but twice.

This is absolute bullshit moron coaching.it is a sad statement that we can watch a coach repeatedly dress non-nhl calibre players, and give 4th liners impact minutrs, and say its no big deal.

And the minutes he gives his top6 is standard issue nhl coaching. And our top6 production is pretty good.

But him choosing to either not dress or play a legit nhl 4th line, and give all the remaining minutes to a line that cannot score and is nothing special defensively - especialky giving them the bulk of critical third period lead minutes - makes us strictly a two-line offense, which is just not good enough in today's nhl.

And it's worse because that 2nd line isn't showing much chemistry, and could use a different element on it...AND we had a holland-raymond combo that was giving us legit 2nd line offense at the time he broke them up.

And he broke them up why? Because he valued that mcselke-led checking line too mucc to even consider breaking them up.

zeke
01-11-2014, 11:21 AM
Don't we have a top-5 PP in the league?

In the one part of the game where skill matters most and coaching least, we're pretty good, yeah.

Killer93
01-11-2014, 11:24 AM
This train has definitely been derailed this year. Definitely don't see them making the playoffs without some drastic changes.

mbow30
01-11-2014, 11:33 AM
Mcclement plays 17-18 minutes a game.

mcclement's ice time has spiked because of injuries and lackadaisical play from kadri.

mcclement plays 12-13 even strength minutes a night, as the team's third line centre.

earlier in the season, when they were healthy, he was playing much less than that.

if you really think that playing peter holland more and jay mcclement less is the difference between competing and the shit that we have seen the past two months, all the power to you.


Our 4th line has been led by this group of turds: orr 34gms, mclaren 21, smithson 17, bodie 14gms

who gives a shit.

you know what this means? more ice time for the top six.

and the only reason jarrod smithson saw any ice at all was because of injuries to the team's 1st, 3rd and 5th centres, but i'll let you run with that one.


When kids like holland and damigo show 3rd line play or better he shuffles them down to 5m 4th line rols.

He plays fraser in half his games, gleason on his top pair, and benches gardiner not once but twice.

This is absolute bullshit moron coaching.

i think the coach deserves plenty of blame. the team is getting outplayed nightly and yet continue to do the asme things and make the same mistakes.

but at some point you also have to hold the players accountable.

the top 6 forwards are constantly pinned deep in their own zone. by 2nd, 3rd and 4th lines.

the top 6 forwards are on the ice for an alarming number of goals against.

the top 6 forwards struggle to maintain pressure in the opposing team's end.

meanwhil, they have run a d unit consisting of 4 puck movers plus gunnarsson and ranger for a full month now, and have played their worst d-zone hockey of the year.

the leafs players simply have to be held accountable for that.

but, yeah, the team loses because it gives an extra minute or two to the one line that hasn't been atrocious in its own zone (Despite tough matchups). and because they play an untalented 4th line 3 m inutes a game. and because they sat jake gardiner for one game. and because they played mark fraser for one game.

blacksheep
01-11-2014, 11:54 AM
but, yeah, the team loses because it gives an extra minute or two to the one line that hasn't been atrocious in its own zone (Despite tough matchups).

Tough matchups my ass.
The Isles?
The Canes?
The Rangers?
We tore the Stanley Cup Champions apart just a short time ago, but we can't beat the Canes?

TimHorton
01-11-2014, 11:55 AM
He meant the lines they match up against.

mbow30
01-11-2014, 11:57 AM
Tough matchups my ass.
The Isles?
The Canes?
The Rangers?
We tore the Stanley Cup Champions apart just a short time ago, but we can't beat the Canes?

you have a comprehension problem.

zeke
01-11-2014, 11:57 AM
Randy, by choice, has limited himself to a strict two-line offense. By choice. He knows his mcclem line can't score and he never plays his 4th line.

When bozak came back we had a red hit holland-raymond combo going. Randy CHOSE to break them up why? Because he couldn't bear the thought of breaking up his checkng line, and limiting his 4th line centre to 4th line minutes. Even though his checking line quite literally sucks, and is performing at the level of an aveage nhl 4th line, offensively and defensively.

But he values that line so much, that he sacrificed an offensive combo that was working well to keep them together.

The level of ignorance needed to stop playing one of your hottest offensive players just for the pleasure of playing jay mcclement 18 minuted a game is mindboggling. Especislly when you are knowingly limiting yourself to a strict two line offense in the process.

And it's not "a couple extra minutes" - mcclement is playing DOUBLE the minutes he should be getting he should be getting 10mpg. At most.

We have the personnel to ice three scoring lines. Randy is choosing not to do that because he would rather use a proven 4th line calivre player 18mpg,. Even though there is nothing special defensively about this line either.

Not many (any?) teams survive on a two line offense. Deliberately choosing this setup is moronity.

And enough about the puckmovers on defense - every good team uses lots of puckmovers on defense.

Few teams repeatedly bench players as good as gardiner, though, or play gleasons on their top pair or frasers permanent nhl spots. What is scary is that randy literally thinks franson is very good defensively, and that gardiner is not. That's scary.

BeLeafer
01-11-2014, 12:00 PM
Maybe it's just a reflection of injuries, but McClement is a regular fixture in OT (sometimes even starting the OT period). WTF? I thought the point of 4 on 4 OT was to push for the win.

Wayward DP
01-11-2014, 12:03 PM
Randy, by choice, has limited himself to a strict two-line offense. By choice. He knows his mcclem line can't score and he never plays his 4th line.

When bozak came back we had a red hit holland-raymond combo going. Randy CHOSE to break them up why? Because he couldn't bear the thought of breaking up his checkng line, and limiting his 4th line centre to 4th line minutes. Even though his checking line quite literally sucks, and is performing at the level of an aveage nhl 4th line, offensively and defensively.

But he values that line so much, that he sacrificed an offensive combo that was working well to keep them together.

The level of ignorance needed to stop playing one of your hottest offensive players just for the pleasure of playing jay mcclement 18 minuted a game is mindboggling. Especislly when you are knowingly limiting yourself to a strict two line offense in the process.

And it's not "a couple extra minutes" - mcclement is playing DOUBLE the minutes he should be getting he should be getting 10mpg. At most.

We have the personnel to ice three scoring lines. Randy is choosing not to do that because he would rather use a proven 4th line calivre player 18mpg,. Even though there is nothing special defensively about this line either.

Not many (any?) teams survive on a two line offense. Deliberately choosing this setup is moronity.

And enough about the puckmovers on defense - every good team uses lots of puckmovers on defense.

Few teams repeatedly bench players as good as gardiner, though, or play gleasons on their top pair or frasers permanent nhl spots. What is scary is that randy literally thinks franson is very good defensively, and that gardiner is not. That's scary.

You're still choosing not to address the defensive shortcomings of our top-6 forwards, and entire d-corps not named Dion and Carl.

Playing Holland over McClement does not mean that the Bozak and Kadri lines, and the Franson and Rielly pairs, will magically do a better job of keeping the puck out of our net.

zeke
01-11-2014, 12:05 PM
Mcclem 1gl
Kulemin 5
Clarkson 3

Smithson/ashton 0
Bodie/d'amigo 2
Orr mclaren 0


If you don't think icing a bottom 6 who is at a collective sub-20gl pace is a serious problem, you don't know what you're talking about.

blacksheep
01-11-2014, 12:09 PM
He meant the lines they match up against.

Regardless, this team has clearly tuned out a coach who prefers mediocrity. They've learned that no matter how well or how poorly you play, your coach has a defined role for you on this team that he refuses to stray from.

Wayward DP
01-11-2014, 12:09 PM
Mcclem 1gl
Kulemin 5
Clarkson 3

Smithson/ashton 0
Bodie/d'amigo 2
Orr mclaren 0


If you don't think icing a bottom 6 who is at a collective sub-20gl pace is a serious problem, you don't know what you're talking about.

You're still choosing not to address the defensive shortcomings of our top-6 forwards, and entire d-corps not named Dion and Carl.

Playing Holland over McClement does not mean that the Bozak and Kadri lines, and the Franson and Rielly pairs, will magically do a better job of keeping the puck out of our net.

zeke
01-11-2014, 12:12 PM
You're still choosing not to address the defensive shortcomings of our top-6 forwards, and entire d-corps not named Dion and Carl.

Playing Holland over McClement does not mean that the Bozak and Kadri lines, and the Franson and Rielly pairs, will magically do a better job of keeping the puck out of our net.

Well we were talking about personnel choices specifically. This is a different issue.

But even then a partial solution is obvious - if the current kadri lupul rsymond line isn't working well offensively or defensively, then why are they kept together?

The answer? Because randy can't bear to break up his "checking" line. That's the only reason.

He could choose to put kuly on the kadri line to add some defense and posession, but he won't. Because mcselke.

And iirc, the kessel line was a healthy positive when bozak was on it.


But we could go further and discuss randy's efforts to turn kessel lupul kadri raymond into dump and chasers too, if you want.

mbow30
01-11-2014, 12:12 PM
Randy, by choice, has limited himself to a strict two-line offense. By choice. He knows his mcclem line can't score and he never plays his 4th line.

he plays the mcclement line because it is his only line that he can actually rely on not to get scored against.

every single other line spends most of its time running around the leafs zone.

we have seen it. every game. basically all year.

maybe it's time to mix and match the top six. maybe it's time to simplify the game and space the players closer together. maybe it's time to stop trying to stretch defences on the breakout. maybe it's time to focus less on attacking the neutral zone with speed. maybe it's time to give the d-men more time on the puck. maybe it's time to switch lupul and kulemin (though that probably means MORE MCCLEMENT). there are lots of thigns to criticize the coaches for.

you can't just pretend or ignore that the skill guys have been liabilities. they aren't playing well. if anything, they force carlyle to have to rely on that third line.


When bozak came back we had a red hit holland-raymond combo going. Randy CHOSE to break them up why? Because he couldn't bear the thought of breaking up his checkng line, and limiting his 4th line centre to 4th line minutes. Even though his checking line quite literally sucks, and is performing at the level of an aveage nhl 4th line, offensively and defensively.

But he values that line so much, that he sacrificed an offensive combo that was working well to keep them together.



defensively they are not. that's a subjective assessment unsupported by the facts (all are amongst the team leaders in ga/on per 60). and that's despite the fact that they start only ~30% of their shifts in the offensive zone.

we saw the effect that (combined iwth tough matchups) has on production last year, with grabovski.

as for the line being 'red hot' -- 8 points in 10 games, including a game where the line scored 4 goals.

they were playing solid hockey and holland showed promising signs.

but it isn't like the line was putting up a goal a game for the team.


The level of ignorance needed to stop playing one of your hottest offensive players just for the pleasure of playing jay mcclement 18 minuted a game is mindboggling. Especislly when you are knowingly limiting yourself to a strict two line offense in the process.

And it's not "a couple extra minutes" - mcclement is playing DOUBLE the minutes he should be getting he should be getting 10mpg. At most.

mcclement played 15 minutes per game last year. he is playing 16.5 minutes per game this year. the difference? an extra minute and a half of ES time. why? because bolland is hurt and mcclement is their only other centre who can actually play competent defensive hockey.


We have the personnel to ice three scoring lines. Randy is choosing not to do that because he would rather use a proven 4th line calivre player 18mpg,. Even though there is nothing special defensively about this line either.

Not many (any?) teams survive on a two line offense. Deliberately choosing this setup is moronity.

you know what else few teams have? two former 30 goal scorers on its 3rd line.

Wayward DP
01-11-2014, 12:15 PM
Well we were talking about personnel choices specifically. This is a different issue.

But even then a partial solution is obvious - if the current kadri lupul rsymond line isn't working well offensively or defensively, then why are they kept together?

The answer? Because randy can't bear to break up his "checking" line. That's the only reason.

He could choose to put kuly on the kadri line to add some defense and posession, but he won't. Because mcselke.

And iirc, the kessel line was a healthy positive when bozak was on it.


But we could go further and discuss randy's efforts to turn kessel lupul kadri raymond into dump and chasers too, if you want.

I do think it's time to mix up the line combinations, at the very least.

TimHorton
01-11-2014, 12:16 PM
maybe it's time to mix and match the top six. maybe it's time to simplify the game and space the players closer together. maybe it's time to stop trying to stretch defences on the breakout. maybe it's time to focus less on attacking the neutral zone with speed. maybe it's time to give the d-men more time on the puck

I don't think there's any maybe about any of these to be honest. All of them should happen immediately.

zeke
01-11-2014, 03:26 PM
he plays the mcclement line because it is his only line that he can actually rely on not to get scored against.

unfortunately not only are they not good at not getting scored against, but they're absolutely useless in the offensive zone.

use last night's embarassing third period performance by them as an example, and don't pretend it's the first time it's happened.





maybe it's time to mix and match the top six. maybe it's time to simplify the game and space the players closer together. maybe it's time to stop trying to stretch defences on the breakout. maybe it's time to focus less on attacking the neutral zone with speed. maybe it's time to give the d-men more time on the puck. maybe it's time to switch lupul and kulemin (though that probably means MORE MCCLEMENT). there are lots of thigns to criticize the coaches for.

maybe? the time was months ago.


you can't just pretend or ignore that the skill guys have been liabilities. they aren't playing well. if anything, they force carlyle to have to rely on that third line.

who is ignoring this? not me.

we can sit here do nothing and hope that our top two lines finally become juggernauts, or we can acknowledge they're not going to be great defensively and support them with even more offense from the bottom lines.

Factoring in games missed, both of our top two lines are producing at near GPG paces. That is very solid top-6 production.

Top line has 43gls in 46gms, but that's with Bozak missing 24gms and JVR missing 2gms. So in reality they're well over a GPG.

2nd line has 37gls in 46gms, with Lupul missing 9gms and Kadri missin 4. So they're barely under a GPG.

That is the basis for a very good offensive team - but the rest of the team has combined for only 38gls. That's embarassing. Even worse, 15 of those goals have been scored by Bolland, Holland, and Smith, guys who aren't in the lineup right now. So we're icing a bottom 6 and D-corps that has 23 goals on the year.

Make no mistake - our need for offense outside of our top-6 has reached desperation stage here. Not only should Holland be up here, but guys like Abbott and Leivo should be gettin looks as well - that's how desperate the situation is right now.

Kuly-McClem-Clarkson is performing like a 4th line right now. If Randy is obsessed with keeping them together, then he simply has to dump Orr and put together some kids (or mix and match the kids with the 2nd line guys) and try anything in his power to put together another scoring line.




defensively they are not. that's a subjective assessment unsupported by the facts (all are amongst the team leaders in ga/on per 60). and that's despite the fact that they start only ~30% of their shifts in the offensive zone.

we saw the effect that (combined iwth tough matchups) has on production last year, with grabovski.

as for the line being 'red hot' -- 8 points in 10 games, including a game where the line scored 4 goals.

they were playing solid hockey and holland showed promising signs.

but it isn't like the line was putting up a goal a game for the team.

a third line that can give you a goal every two games is what you're looking for from a third line - and that line was definitely doing that.




mcclement played 15 minutes per game last year. he is playing 16.5 minutes per game this year. the difference? an extra minute and a half of ES time. why? because bolland is hurt and mcclement is their only other centre who can actually play competent defensive hockey.

mcclement played too much last year as well, but at least last year he was just filling in as the crappy 2nd winger on a line with Grabo and Mac/Kuly/Frattin.

but again, even then, randy benching the likes of Mac and Frattin in order to play McClement on the third line was embarassingly stupid.

this year of course he's taken that stupidity and exacerbated it by a significant degree.



you know what else few teams have? two former 30 goal scorers on its 3rd line.

this is even worse - Kuly and Clarkson have both shown the ability to be offensive producers as the third wheel on an offensive line. They could be valuable third guys on scoring lines for us. But our idiot coach is putting them on a line where they have to be the skill leaders and play creators, which will never ever work. He is completely wasting any scoring potential they may have.




The sad part of it all is that all of the problems start with his obsession with playing a goon on the 4th line. That one obsession automatically means that in his head he cannot put any player he counts on for a regular shift onto the 4th line, because the 4th line is unplayable thanks to the goon. So then he's forced to turn his third line into his defensive line, even if it ends up costing him all offense from that line. All because of his need for one goon in the lineup, he completely writes off any offense from his bottom 6 as a result.

If he could just kick orr out of his mental lineup, and even go with a D'amigo-Holland-Ashton fourth line even if he still refuses to change his other lines, that line would still force it's way into more minutes than his typical 4th lines because they all can skate, hit, and control the puck. In time, I wouldn't be shocked to see a D'amigo-Holland-Ashton line get as many or even more minutes than that McClement line.

But what's really scary is that because randy has fallen into his own mental trap here, we all know that the plan going forward is to stick Bolland into the Kadri spot, without changing the rest of the lines. That's the direction we're clearly heading in, and if you don't think it's a problem than we'll never agree.

mbow30
01-11-2014, 03:43 PM
you live in a fantasy land in which you are loathe to criticize the players you like, overrate the team's depth pieces and are too hung up on seeing guys who skate pretty play big minutes

and i can't believe how wilfully you are ignoring the stats that are right in front of your face.

it is a fact: the mcclement-kulemin-clarkson line has done a way, way, way better job than any other line at keeping the puck otu of the leafs net. and that is despite the fact that they are routinely matched up against the opposition's top lines and start close to 60% of their shifts in the leafs zone.

GA on per 60

mclaren 1.35
gunanrsson 1.63
mcclement 1.65
phaneuf 1.76
ashton 1.78
gardiner 1.86
kulemin 2.05
clarkson 2.14
raymond 2.32
ranger 2.34
holland 2.38
smith 2.54
kessel 2/79
orr 2.79
bozak 2.94
jvr 2.94
kadri 3.05
lupul 3.14
franson 3.23
rielly 3.75

what is particularly alarming about that is that kadri and lupul do that against 3rd lines. you can't just ignore that. they have been liabilities in the leafs end.

as for what carlyle intends on doing once the team is healthy... that is silly speculation and highly unlikely, unless it is for the exprss purpose of serving a message to kadri.. which, based on his play, is frankly not unwarranted.

but he started the year with bozak, kadri, bolland and mcclement down the middle. not only that but they also started the year wtih the same first line, the kadri-lupul pairing, were pairing clarkson with bolland, and had mcclement on the fourth line.

zeke
01-11-2014, 04:08 PM
It's hilarious because I have had no problem criticizing our star players for not playing up to par this year.

The only one living in a fantasy land of excuse making is you, who for whatever reason can't admit that a team about to set an NHL record for negative shot differential could possibly be getting poor coaching.

mbow30
01-11-2014, 04:12 PM
saying 'mcclement and carlyle's use of him isn't why this team has been sucking' isn't making excuses for the coaching, or not criticizing the coaching.

mbow30
01-11-2014, 04:12 PM
the fact that you (once again) ignored the stats was noted, though.

zeke
01-11-2014, 04:12 PM
Saying that our coaching is ass and playing a guy with 1 goal 18 minutes a game is a big part of it isn't making excuses for the players not performing.

zeke
01-11-2014, 04:21 PM
I ignore stats that clearly aren't contextualized.

McClement gets the benefit of having Gunnar-Phaneuf behind him for all those shifts against top lines, for example.

And if you want more stats, here you go:


T.Bozak: +1.570 corsi relative qualcomp, +2.1 corsi relative
N.Kadri: -0.039 corsi relative qualcomp, +13.3 corsi relative
McSelke: +0.543 corsi relative qualcomp, -5.9 corsi relative


Contrary to your claims, McSelke hasn't had very tough quality of competition at all, and still has an abysmal corsi regardless.

McSelke has had the 10th hardest qualcomp of the 18 forwards who have played more than 10gms for us this year, and the 10th highest corsi rel.

And of course, we know that he does absolutely nothing offensively to make up for it.



Your excuses suck.

zeke
01-11-2014, 04:26 PM
and I don't get the criticism that the top lines get hemmed in their own zone, when McClem spends more time behind his own net than he ever does int he offensive zone.

PKForce81
01-11-2014, 04:42 PM
and I don't get the criticism that the top lines get hemmed in their own zone, when McClem spends more time behind his own net than he ever does int he offensive zone.

Do the stats say this or you just making up shit? No way McClement spends more time in our own zone. In fact if there's one line that can actually keep the puck in the other team's end it's McClement with Kuly and Clarkson(i'd change him to D'Admigo though). I agree with a lot you say zeke but you're way off on McSelke ;)...Yes he sucks offensively(in terms of scoring goals) but if we had more JVR and Franson types this team would suck even more(very one dimensional imo)..I think Randy's lines and just general player selection have been at least partially why this team is sucking right now(and once you get into a losing mode it's more difficult to get out).

PKForce81
01-11-2014, 04:43 PM
and mbow is 100% right, our top lines suck at getting out(once the other team starts cycling)..One of the biggest issues for sure.

Leafin'
01-11-2014, 05:31 PM
How does this team improve?

new coach? new players? new what?

For once, it is not the goalies to blame for the teams' suckiness. How does this team improve? Will Bolland make that big a difference to the team?

Bleedsblue&white
01-11-2014, 05:38 PM
You can't go making this black or white, there's blame for everybody here. There are players mailing it on for sure. I don't like Randy's OCD for line matching at all.

MindzEye
01-11-2014, 05:48 PM
Line matching is absolutely the way to go in most cases. Get your best offensive players as many offensive zone starts as possible, get your best defensive guys with a higher level of defensive zone starts and work that home ice advantage for last line changes as much as possible. But you've gotta have the horses to properly match and right now, Randy doesn't. His best defensive pairing has Dion Phaneuf on it, who should also get a ton of offensive zone starts. His best defensive line has McClement as it's anchor and he simply doesn't warrant that type of usage.

I agree with Zeke here that he badly needs to work 3 scoring lines as best he can.

JVR-Bozak-Kessel
Lupul-Kadri-Kulemin
Raymond-Holland-Clarkson
Ashton-McClement-D'Amigo

You can still work some shit around for important defensive zone faceoffs and roll a Kulemin-McClement-Clarkson line out there, or a Lupul-Bozak-Kulemin/McClement line. But for format purposes, it should be 3 scoring lines and a checking/energy line.

Bleedsblue&white
01-11-2014, 05:58 PM
I think other coaches use it against him. He's too anal about it...I'm not saying line-matching isn't good, I'm saying he won't think outside the box and his opponents use it against him.

Leafin'
01-11-2014, 06:07 PM
The only concern that i have(if true) is this "players in the doghouse" business.

These are grown men, not children. A coach should be an innovator when it comes to maintaining player morale. Its obviously not a perfect science, and losing creates rifts within the locker room. If we are losing because there are certain bad seeds not complying to what the team needs, it is the General Managers job to replace these players with guys who will. Something has changed since last season. The team has not played with the same tenacity that they did last season. What has changed?

Professional sports is an interesting beast. A lot of egos to deal with. These guys have been spoon fed and been treated like stars their entire life. Now they have to conform to a standard where everyone is equal(or thereabout). Do contracts come in to play? Say a guy like Kessel who just signed 8x8 is really dogging it, what kind of precedent does that set with the rest of the team? Or a guy like Clarkson making 5 mil producing a 30 point pace, while a guy like Kadri who produced at a near PPG last year could barely get half of what Clarkson is making? What about a guy like Franson who outproduced Phaneuf offensively last season and then sees him sign 7x7 while Franson could barely scrape together a 2 mil contract for himself. How about Kadri who produces this year at .5 PPG makes a few bad plays sees his icetime drop to 10 mins while a guy like McClement who can barely scrape together 20 point in a year gets 18 mins. Holland same thing, produces for a bit, makes a mistake and now is sent down to the AHL because the coach refuses to give him adequate ice time to develop.

Keep in mind im not looking at the overall impact of a player, im just looking at the hypothetical psychology of certain players. This is where each guy needs to be evaluated. Its not an easy task as everyone has their own agenda when it comes to playing. Its not the other guys problem that someone is or isn't getting enough ice time to succeed, they are more concerned with themselves and making the most out of a career for themselves.

Leafovic
01-11-2014, 09:20 PM
Lineup matching shouldn't be too difficult to accomplish at home, but I don't think a coach should get carried away with it. A coach that matches lines obsessivley is indicating that he doesn't expect/or doesn't have confidence in all of his players to perform in all aspects of the game. And if that is what you're teaching, you end up having players thinking "this isn't my responsibility", losing confidence or not getting the necessary experience. It is logical to play a defensive zone face-off specialist late in a game, to bring out a defensive line late in a game, and its normal to have specialists on the pp and pk, but that mentality shouldn't be the case 5 on 5.

If you can play three scoring lines, you should. Balancing lines is a good idea. But that only works if you do what im suggesting..ask more from the players and stop specializing player roles too much on 5 on 5.







Line matching is absolutely the way to go in most cases. Get your best offensive players as many offensive zone starts as possible, get your best defensive guys with a higher level of defensive zone starts and work that home ice advantage for last line changes as much as possible. But you've gotta have the horses to properly match and right now, Randy doesn't. His best defensive pairing has Dion Phaneuf on it, who should also get a ton of offensive zone starts. His best defensive line has McClement as it's anchor and he simply doesn't warrant that type of usage.

I agree with Zeke here that he badly needs to work 3 scoring lines as best he can.

JVR-Bozak-Kessel
Lupul-Kadri-Kulemin
Raymond-Holland-Clarkson
Ashton-McClement-D'Amigo

You can still work some shit around for important defensive zone faceoffs and roll a Kulemin-McClement-Clarkson line out there, or a Lupul-Bozak-Kulemin/McClement line. But for format purposes, it should be 3 scoring lines and a checking/energy line.

TimHorton
01-20-2014, 10:58 PM
dummies.

Wayward DP
01-21-2014, 09:22 AM
Guess the sky stopped falling...

BeLeafer
01-21-2014, 09:23 AM
When Randy stopped doing his major brainfarts (especially not playing McSelke 19 minutes a game).

zeke
01-21-2014, 09:27 AM
Yup, good on randy for taking our advice.

MapleLeafBlueJayBoy
01-21-2014, 09:48 AM
I think Nonis quietly stepped in and had some words with Randy. Just before Randy did an about face on the McClements, Frasers and Rangers of this world, it was reported that they were having a series of meetings.

Killer93
01-21-2014, 09:55 AM
The streak started when he started doing the things we were screaming he should be doing over past month; definitely happy with the turn around but I hope Randy doesn't resort to methods like playing McClement 20 mins or bench Gardiner for Fraser/Ranger

ForeverTML
01-21-2014, 09:58 AM
When Randy stopped doing his major brainfarts (especially not playing McSelke 19 minutes a game).

Yep. No McSelke playing top 2 center minutes, no fraser, no ranger and add Gards and Holland = winning.

LeafGm
01-21-2014, 10:20 AM
dummies.
'Twas all valid criticism. If Carlyle was still playing McSelke 20 minutes a night, with Kadri playing about 10-11 minutes a night on the third line and Holland in the minors, I'd still be calling for his head.

And even though he's been better lately, he's still got to be somewhat idiotic. Calling up Bodie as our injury replacement, and playing him 10+ minutes while Carter Ashton only got 2-3 shifts all game (and looked fantastic in them) is another good example. As well as just one the whole, dressing a fourth line that he either can't, or refuses to use. Maybe if we were rolling four lines, the team wouldn't have looked gassed and half-dead for the second half of last night's game.

Wayward DP
01-21-2014, 10:34 AM
'Twas all valid criticism. If Carlyle was still playing McSelke 20 minutes a night, with Kadri playing about 10-11 minutes a night on the third line and Holland in the minors, I'd still be calling for his head.

And even though he's been better lately, he's still got to be somewhat idiotic. Calling up Bodie as our injury replacement, and playing him 10+ minutes while Carter Ashton only got 2-3 shifts all game (and looked fantastic in them) is another good example. As well as just one the whole, dressing a fourth line that he either can't, or refuses to use. Maybe if we were rolling four lines, the team wouldn't have looked gassed and half-dead for the second half of last night's game.

You can criticize some of a coaches decisions without bleating on about the immediate necessity of firing said coach. I don't think anyone here will ever agree with every decision made by a coach. It was the hyperbolic caterwauling in response to a losing streak that was a bit much.

zeke
01-21-2014, 10:35 AM
It was when bozak came back and randy stuck with his "checking line" at holland's expense, just when the team was starting to win some games and had a chance to start rolling, that really pissed me off. I don't love randy's system but i'll hold my breath on it as long as he's icing the best roster he can.

LeafGm
01-21-2014, 10:44 AM
You can criticize some of a coaches decisions without bleating on about the immediate necessity of firing said coach. I don't think anyone here will ever agree with every decision made by a coach. It was the hyperbolic caterwauling in response to a losing streak that was a bit much.
Nahh, it was valid criticism, as was calling for his firing at the time. The team was in free-fall in the standings, and the coach was stubbornly sticking to roster decisions that were actively and seriously harming our chances of victory. If he'd stubbornly stuck to what he was doing and hadn't be willing to change, firing him absolutely would have been the right choice.

PKForce81
01-21-2014, 10:55 AM
Bozak back and getting Gleason who is covering up a lot of mistakes(not playing Fraser as well) are major reasons for why we're back on track. He called up Bodie which most people hate(i'd rather have D'Amigo). The other stuff is just coincidence because McLaren is injured(you bet he'd be in there somehow). Point is, he's not a perfect coach but he's pretty close compared to what else we could have. McClement will still be the shutdown player no matter how many hate that..He is one of our better options so i've always agreed with that. He doesn't provide offense so for that reason he shouldn't be playing more than a guy like Holland. So far so good.

Hoss
01-21-2014, 11:12 AM
despite the love affair of some with Ranger... his absence has made the defence much better. We were too nice waiting for him to be better and it never really happened. Glad he's in the press box

Bleedsblue&white
01-21-2014, 11:26 AM
I still am not crazy about Carlyle, but as zeke kinda said, we're winning so all's good. I just keep going back to the playoffs, and how Gardiner only got in due to injury where he ended up being one of our best players in that series.

MapleLeafBlueJayBoy
01-21-2014, 11:31 AM
I still am not crazy about Carlyle, but as zeke kinda said, we're winning so all's good. I just keep going back to the playoffs, and how Gardiner only got in due to injury where he ended up being one of our best players in that series.

Or the non timeout during game 7 when it was clear the Leafs were panicking and out of gas.

LeafOfFaith
01-21-2014, 11:38 AM
Glad we can all agree now that Ranger is garbage.

JaysCyYoung
01-21-2014, 11:52 AM
That non-timeout in game 7 is one of the worst examples of coaching I can remember in professional sports. EVERYONE knew Boston was coming back and he just sat back.

Just take 30 seconds to calm everyone down and take a breather. Christ. That non-decision will annoy me until the day I die.

Bleedsblue&white
01-21-2014, 12:15 PM
Yep.

MapleLeafBlueJayBoy
03-23-2014, 08:27 PM
oh yeah, its bumped.

LeafGm
03-23-2014, 08:32 PM
Who do you hire to replace him?

trujaysfan
03-23-2014, 08:34 PM
Quinn

LeafGm
03-23-2014, 08:35 PM
Yeah, I'd be on board with that.

mbow30
03-23-2014, 08:37 PM
that would be a disaster

leafman101
03-23-2014, 09:40 PM
Not his fault Reimer is playing like shit. They were in 2nd place when bernier went down.

axlsalinger
03-23-2014, 09:40 PM
Yeah, terrible idea.

Carlyle's big mistake was not strapping on the pads himself tonight.

Pronger84
03-23-2014, 09:43 PM
Not his fault Reimer is playing like shit. They were in 2nd place when bernier went down.

The problem with Randy is his system or lackthereof one, we give up the most amount of shots in the game, our PK is in the bottm 1/3, we struggle badly at clearing out of the zone.

Habsy
03-23-2014, 09:48 PM
I'd still trade Therrien for Carlyle.

CH1
03-23-2014, 09:51 PM
Carlyle is mediocre. Hope the Leafs don't fire him.

worm
03-23-2014, 09:55 PM
meh
most NHL coaches are mediocre...trading one mediocre coach for another is no biggie

Volcanologist
03-23-2014, 10:23 PM
Question is who would be better?

I could accept the argument that Carlyle isn't the coach for this group of players.

But neither was Wilson, who was the opposite kind of coach.

So who then?

PKForce81
03-23-2014, 10:26 PM
Not his fault Reimer is playing like shit. They were in 2nd place when bernier went down.

Yep. We have some minor issues on defence(Franson) and our forward lines need a bit more balance from a defensive point. Other than that, i'm happy with this squad and i like what Carlyle has done so far. No perfect coach out there anyways so we'd be whining about something else and perhaps that guy would create even bigger problems.

Pronger84
03-23-2014, 10:27 PM
You have to look at this team's strength which is speed, whoever this coach is needs to work from that area and to encourage his players to tighten up defensively by using their speed to pressure the oppoent into making mistakes in our end then quickly counter-attacking on the rush.

Carlyle isn't the right fit, he loves to play a crash n bang system, we don't have the players meant for it. Whoever the next coach is a) needs to have strong interpersonal communication skills with the players b) preach aggressiveness in all 3 zones c) be able to properly motivate this team.

MindzEye
03-23-2014, 10:31 PM
I know that Corsi and like stats have been a hot button topic here this year, and I know I've been one on the main people railing against the Corsi zealots on twitter, but with that said I think that it can have important insights about a player, or a teams system. Possessing the puck is important, even for a counter attacking team like the Leafs. I spent some time on extraskater.com tonight and came across some data that suggests the problem is a lot more Carlyle than it is personnel

Here's what some current and recent Leafs have done for Corsi% with and without Randy as their coach

Phil Kessel

11/12: 49.2%
12/13: 46.2%
13/14: 44.6%

Tyler Bozak

11/12: 47.2%
12/13: 45.5%
13/14: 43.6%

JVR

11/12: 52.2% (Flyers)
12/13: 45.5%
13/14: 44.7%

Lupul

11/12: 48.5%
12/13: 43.0%
13/14: 42.3%

Franson

11/12: 51.2%
13/14: 44.8%

MacArthur

12/13: 48.9%
13/14: 53.1%

Liles

12/13: 45.1%
13/14: 49.7%

Gleason:

12/13: 48.4%
13/14: 43.8%

I could go on, but the trend is across the board. Leafs who played under Wilson saw a steep decrease in possession, Leafs who have come in from elsewhere have seen a steep decrease, and Leafs who have gone elsewhere have seen a steep increase.

Do I think that Corsi maximizing styles of play are the way forward for this group? Not necessarily, there is more than enough talent here to play a looser system than a lot of clubs and still have significant success due to talent level, speed, etc. But, we're abysmal at the puck management aspect of the game with our only comparables being clubs with vastly inferior rosters. But clearly, if we're going to see this club get better than the 93-97 point club they looked like for the majority of the season, it's going to start with puck management.

MyNameIsJonas
03-23-2014, 10:33 PM
If Liewieke gets a legit say in the Leafs, i wonder if he'd clean house completely and bring in a couple guys from L.A. he's familiar with

Ron Hextall GM
John Stevens coach.

Killer93
03-23-2014, 11:24 PM
Cant really blame coaching for latest run; just overall goaltending and defensive play

uncus
03-24-2014, 07:43 AM
You have to look at this team's strength which is speed, whoever this coach is needs to work from that area and to encourage his players to tighten up defensively by using their speed to pressure the oppoent into making mistakes in our end then quickly counter-attacking on the rush.

Carlyle isn't the right fit, he loves to play a crash n bang system, we don't have the players meant for it. Whoever the next coach is a) needs to have strong interpersonal communication skills with the players b) preach aggressiveness in all 3 zones c) be able to properly motivate this team.

What do you think he is trying to do now? He has them trying to use their speed and counter punching!
The leafs problems is their soft play along the boards, zero discipline on the breakouts and lack of accountability for the forwards that leave the zone before the puck is even turned over (hello kessel and JVR).
Those are the things that Carlyle needs to be held accountable for.
Yes the leafs should dump him in the off season ..... heck I would do it now for the impact alone on the rest of the season .... worked for Lou in NJ ..lol
Next, I would approach Hunter and make him an offer he couldn't refuse. Alot of these guys have an ego and that ego can be used as a weakness to gather them in for the job.
Someone here once spewed that Washington was his dream job ... I say bullocks to that.
3 million a season and carte blanche over the personal on the team as well as bonuses and perks ..... he will come, oh yes he will come ........lol.

uncus
03-24-2014, 08:17 AM
I would also sign P.K.Subban to an 8.1 million dollar deal for 5 years (I think 5 years is the max you can go on term isn't it?) or to whatever max deal is up to 8 years.
I would have no problem surrendering the 2 first round picks the second and the third for him.
With P.K. and Reilly, Gardner, Fin and the likes coming up ... defense is fixed for years to come.
I would also like to see if Edmonton would still like to have Clarkson and Franson .... there is PK s money right there.

CaptainBolduke
03-24-2014, 08:34 AM
heh

Mega
03-24-2014, 08:34 AM
Dont know how its even up for debate, Carlyle is a brutal coach. Any coach still icing Colton Orr deserves to be canned.

rated
03-24-2014, 09:20 AM
oh yeah, its bumped.

Well you are one of those kind of fans (think HF board). My bet was either you or killer93.

Wayward DP
03-24-2014, 09:55 AM
Clearly, Randy is responsible both for Bernier's groin injury, and James Reimer's newfound inability to stop a puck.

MindzEye
03-24-2014, 10:46 AM
Clearly, Randy is responsible both for Bernier's groin injury, and James Reimer's newfound inability to stop a puck.

No, he's not.

However I would absolutely hold him responsible for our inability to implement even a mediocre puck management system. A team defensive unit on pace to allow the most shots in NHL history, and a league basement level PK despite having received well above average goaltending for most of the season.

He has the personnel in house to play a much more effective style of hockey than we have this season imo. He's simply failed to either identify that, or implement the necessary changes to get it done. Coaches are incredibly replaceable, no reason to cling to past success when the current results aren't where we want to be.

zeke
03-24-2014, 10:57 AM
Bottom line with this team is that its a very good team (by both tradtionial and advanced metrics) when trailing, and horrific when they have the lead.

Plenty of that is on the players, but a huge chunk of that has to beon the strategy and personnel used when we have the lead.

Volcanologist
03-24-2014, 11:27 AM
I think the Bolland injury has played a major role in that. He's the type of guy you need on the ice to defend leads, and he isn't a black hole where offence goes to die like McClement.

ForeverTML
03-24-2014, 11:31 AM
Randy is the head coach of the team, he has to be 'responsible' for the way the team plays - especially defensively. There is no denying that no matter how you look at it..

Volcanologist
03-24-2014, 11:34 AM
I don't think that's true at all.

This same roster played much much better last year with the same coach. The same players produced a top PK.

zeke
03-24-2014, 11:40 AM
But when the same players get worse system-wise, that might be an even bigger indictment of the coach.

MindzEye
03-24-2014, 11:41 AM
I don't think that's true at all.

This same roster played much much better last year with the same coach. The same players produced a top PK.

Sure, and opposition PP's made adjustments to a bit of a trick, uncommon PK strategy and then started torching it this year. Randy's answer was to stick to his guns without changing from his PK strategy that worked last year.

ForeverTML
03-24-2014, 11:52 AM
I would definitely say that the shortened season helped us get and stay in a playoff position. We definitely had more structure last year, but it could be one of those things where teams figure us out and make small adjustments, when we look like we have completely regressed.

The same coach that was lauded for icing a strong team last year should be open to criticism for an unstructured team this year. Arguably with the changes in the roster, the on ice product isnt even on par with last year's team with Grabo and Mac who arent world beaters.

Pronger84
03-24-2014, 12:19 PM
Sure, and opposition PP's made adjustments to a bit of a trick, uncommon PK strategy and then started torching it this year. Randy's answer was to stick to his guns without changing from his PK strategy that worked last year.

The thing with the PK last year is how aggressive it was, they didn't give other teams time to set up shop and they were always buzzing around trying to swipe the puck away.

This year I'm noticing were employing a "collapse mode" in front of the goalies in hopes of taking away the down low shots/passes, kind of the same strategy Carlyle likes to use at E/S... definetely a change up in PK strategies between this year and last year.

The other big thing, didn't Reimer have one of the better PK save percentages in the NHL last year?

Blueman
03-24-2014, 12:21 PM
This is on the players. They are collapsing at the worst time of the season. Reims is done and the team has no confidence playing in front of him. This is not on the coach.

Pronger84
03-24-2014, 12:26 PM
This is on the players. They are collapsing at the worst time of the season. Reims is done and the team has no confidence playing in front of him. This is not on the coach.

The team is finding a way to have their biggest losing streak of the year at the worst time, and yes I feel a lot of it has to do with Reimer in net. That being said, Carlyle knew Reimer's confidence was in the shitter and that we badly needed a win last night, instead of switching up goalies he puts #34 in and only pulls him once he's allowed 3 goals on 10 shots, the smart thing would have been to put Mac in net from the start last night.

zeke
03-24-2014, 12:34 PM
This is on the players. They are collapsing at the worst time of the season. Reims is done and the team has no confidence playing in front of him. This is not on the coach.

I think the players have looked very confident with no quit the last few games,

MindzEye
03-24-2014, 12:56 PM
This is on the players. They are collapsing at the worst time of the season. Reims is done and the team has no confidence playing in front of him. This is not on the coach.

The Leafs have played as well as a group as they've played all year over this stretch.

Montana
03-24-2014, 01:06 PM
The players are playing great right now......so Randy is doing his job. It's Reimer and Reimer alone that is the cause of this current collapse.




.874 goaltending is the reason we're 0-8 in Reimer's last 8 starts. Period.

Volcanologist
03-24-2014, 01:18 PM
Sure, and opposition PP's made adjustments to a bit of a trick, uncommon PK strategy and then started torching it this year. Randy's answer was to stick to his guns without changing from his PK strategy that worked last year.

I find it hard to believe in the era of modern video use that no teams were able to do this to them last year.

we're flat out more passive on the puck-carrier than we were. It's not even a system thing, we're following and gliding and playing zone instead of attacking the puck carrier. We're back to the Wilson days, in other words. I'm pretty sure Randy tells them what to do, they're just not doing it.

CRL
03-24-2014, 01:29 PM
The players are playing great right now......so Randy is doing his job. It's Reimer and Reimer alone that is the cause of this current collapse.




.874 goaltending is the reason we're 0-8 in Reimer's last 8 starts. Period.

doubleshifting most of the guys to just let Orr have 5 shifts per game? putting shaky goalie 2 times back 2 back? playing Franson on PP 30 last games with 0 PP points?
is that is good job?

MindzEye
03-24-2014, 01:44 PM
I find it hard to believe in the era of modern video use that no teams were able to do this to them last year.

we're flat out more passive on the puck-carrier than we were. It's not even a system thing, we're following and gliding and playing zone instead of attacking the puck carrier. We're back to the Wilson days, in other words. I'm pretty sure Randy tells them what to do, they're just not doing it.

Yeah, the compete level doesn't seem the same this year, definitely.

LeafOfFaith
03-24-2014, 01:47 PM
I watched the Marlies game yesterday and wow, Holland looks like a man among boys.

I can't believe a stiff like Orr is getting in the lineup over him. What does this guy do anymore? Fight - no. Hit - no. Absolutely useless.

MindzEye
03-24-2014, 01:49 PM
I watched the Marlies game yesterday and wow, Holland looks like a man among boys.

I can't believe a stiff like Orr is getting in the lineup over him. What does this guy do anymore? Fight - no. Hit - no. Absolutely useless.

I said similar before Holland was sent down...Holland does some good out there and at least can take a regular, honest shift. Orr is a liability when he's out there, and forces us to double shift other players because he can't be trusted with a regular shift.

Mind boggling.

LeafOfFaith
03-24-2014, 02:14 PM
More mind boggling is why they thought it was a good idea to bring BOTH Orr and McLaren back and give them BOTH two year deals.

That one I can't figure out. That should be $2M clearing off next year that we're stuck with, or need to bury.

Pronger84
03-24-2014, 02:17 PM
I said similar before Holland was sent down...Holland does some good out there and at least can take a regular, honest shift. Orr is a liability when he's out there, and forces us to double shift other players because he can't be trusted with a regular shift.

Mind boggling.

Even more mind boggling is how useless he's been since the Parros tilt, Orr's always been a liability out there but the one thing he was good at was fighting, but ever since Parros fell and hit his head its' as if Orr is fearful to fight now.

MindzEye
03-24-2014, 02:32 PM
Even more mind boggling is how useless he's been since the Parros tilt, Orr's always been a liability out there but the one thing he was good at was fighting, but ever since Parros fell and hit his head its' as if Orr is fearful to fight now.

He's had concussion issues of his own. He's now at the age where he's made a decent chunk of money (for a goon) and is thinking about wanting to be in one piece to enjoy a life after hockey.

Volcanologist
03-24-2014, 02:44 PM
I do think the fourth line is a real legitimate gripe that people have with Carlyle. Not only has not playing it all year resulted in overplaying our top line, but the team has had better personnel available and not used them.

At least a guy like Bodie can skate and forecheck effectively and cause some kind of problem for the other team. He'll exact a nightly price from the defencemen he plays against. Orr? nothing of the sort. As for Holland, it's got to be something personal with Carlyle because he can actually be effective at the NHL level unlike Orr/McLaren.

Four lines that can play...too much to ask?

LeafOfFaith
03-24-2014, 03:00 PM
I don't see anything personal with Holland.

He has looked good for brief stretches, as is expected of a kid. He hasn't earned a spot in a top 6 role though, and using him on the fourth line would probably just be a waste of time for him.

He needs to either be getting minutes with our higher lines, or he should be honing his skills in the AHL and coming up with two sick passes resulting in gimme goals.

MindzEye
03-24-2014, 03:12 PM
I don't see anything personal with Holland.

He has looked good for brief stretches, as is expected of a kid. He hasn't earned a spot in a top 6 role though, and using him on the fourth line would probably just be a waste of time for him.

Waste of time for him? Maybe. Waste of time for us though? Not even a little bit. He's allow us to actually ice our 4th line for more than 5-6 minutes without double shifting the shit out of other players


He needs to either be getting minutes with our higher lines, or he should be honing his skills in the AHL and coming up with two sick passes resulting in gimme goals.

I think we're pretty much at the "learned everything he's going to learn" point in the AHL. Considering the fact that if we miss the playoffs he's going down for the AHL playoffs anyway, may as well have him up here in a position to improve the team a bit.

LeafOfFaith
03-24-2014, 03:19 PM
So have him on McClement's wing for 5 minutes a game?

I don't see value in that for anyone, not us or him. That's not his game.

They should have dumped Orr and McLaren in the wastebasket a long time ago and gone with a true fourth line of Ashton-McClement-Bodie.

That's a line that can play, can hit, can fight, can check, and maybe even chip in a goal here and there - everything you want in a 4th line. And if any of those guys is underperforming, you sub in Broll.

Orr has no place on this team.

MindzEye
03-24-2014, 03:38 PM
So have him on McClement's wing for 5 minutes a game?

or 7-8 minutes a game, yeah. Or McClement taking faceoffs and then sliding over to play on his wing.



I don't see value in that for anyone, not us or him.

How is replacing Orr, for a vastly superior hockey player not a good thing? How does it not add to the group? There's a lot of value for him of being right in the thick of a NHL playoff race, playing in games with high end speed and intensity, NHL practices, preparation, etc. There's a lot more benefit to that over a short period of time than for him to be dominating in an unstructured mess of a league for the same 9-10 games.



That's not his game.

What does this even mean? Hockey is his game. He's a hockey player. He has puck skills and vision, he has the ability to control the play along the boards and create space to work with his body. Nobody is asking him to go out there and be a thug, or hit everything that moves. How is retrieving the puck in the offensive zone and initiating a cycle "not his game"? That's all anyone asks of a 4th line shift. Go out there and build a little momentum, try to get an offensive zone face off for the 1st line.

Volcanologist
03-24-2014, 03:57 PM
I don't see anything personal with Holland.

He has looked good for brief stretches, as is expected of a kid. He hasn't earned a spot in a top 6 role though, and using him on the fourth line would probably just be a waste of time for him.

He needs to either be getting minutes with our higher lines, or he should be honing his skills in the AHL and coming up with two sick passes resulting in gimme goals.

But that's because you're assuming the fourth line will be like the way Randy uses his fourth line. If you have a fourth line that has better players on it, it can get used more.

Pronger84
03-24-2014, 04:14 PM
He's had concussion issues of his own. He's now at the age where he's made a decent chunk of money (for a goon) and is thinking about wanting to be in one piece to enjoy a life after hockey.

All the more reason for him to retire and live a normal life post NHL, I really think it's time for Orr to retire while he's still intact. There's plenty of goons that can replace him and do a better job on the 4th line, a guy like Bodie comes to mind who may not be as good of a fighter as Orr is but he's a much better skater, can make hits and isn't a liability out there, hell even Mclaren at this point I feel would be a better option then Orr currently.

LeafOfFaith
03-24-2014, 04:20 PM
or 7-8 minutes a game, yeah. Or McClement taking faceoffs and then sliding over to play on his wing.




How is replacing Orr, for a vastly superior hockey player not a good thing? How does it not add to the group? There's a lot of value for him of being right in the thick of a NHL playoff race, playing in games with high end speed and intensity, NHL practices, preparation, etc. There's a lot more benefit to that over a short period of time than for him to be dominating in an unstructured mess of a league for the same 9-10 games.




What does this even mean? Hockey is his game. He's a hockey player. He has puck skills and vision, he has the ability to control the play along the boards and create space to work with his body. Nobody is asking him to go out there and be a thug, or hit everything that moves. How is retrieving the puck in the offensive zone and initiating a cycle "not his game"? That's all anyone asks of a 4th line shift. Go out there and build a little momentum, try to get an offensive zone face off for the 1st line.

Well, my answers to your questions were in the portions of my post that you didn't requote, so I guess all I can do is refer you back to that.

zeke
03-24-2014, 04:35 PM
So have him on McClement's wing for 5 minutes a game?

I don't see value in that for anyone, not us or him. That's not his game.

They should have dumped Orr and McLaren in the wastebasket a long time ago and gone with a true fourth line of Ashton-McClement-Bodie.

That's a line that can play, can hit, can fight, can check, and maybe even chip in a goal here and there - everything you want in a 4th line. And if any of those guys is underperforming, you sub in Broll.

Orr has no place on this team.

The real issue is clarkson.

Holland should be on the wing of the 2nd line, with clarkson on the 4th.

And no, i'm not exaggerating in the least.

Montana
03-24-2014, 04:50 PM
How many NHL teams have no prototypical "fourth line", and ostencibly play two 3rd lines?.....seems like such an obvious move in this day and age, particularly because you could fill it with young guys who are ready for the show, but that you might not be able to fit into the lineup yet.

Logic would seem to dictate that is an exponentially better decision than playing scrubs like Orr & McLaren.....but are any teams other than Detroit doing this theses days? and if not, why?

Pronger84
03-24-2014, 05:00 PM
How many NHL teams have no prototypical "fourth line", and ostencibly play two 3rd lines?.....seems like such an obvious move in this day and age, particularly because you could fill it with young guys who are ready for the show, but that you might not be able to fit into the lineup yet.

Logic would seem to dictate that is an exponentially better decision than playing scrubs like Orr & McLaren.....but are any teams other than Detroit doing this theses days? and if not, why?

As long as I can remember Detroit has always been a finesse team, not a knock you on your ass one. The closest I remember them to having an enforcer after Probert was Mccarty but even then he had alot more skill then your protypical 4th line goons.

Pronger84
03-24-2014, 05:00 PM
How many NHL teams have no prototypical "fourth line", and ostencibly play two 3rd lines?.....seems like such an obvious move in this day and age, particularly because you could fill it with young guys who are ready for the show, but that you might not be able to fit into the lineup yet.

Logic would seem to dictate that is an exponentially better decision than playing scrubs like Orr & McLaren.....but are any teams other than Detroit doing this theses days? and if not, why?

As long as I can remember Detroit has always been a finesse team, not a knock you on your ass one. The closest I remember them to having an enforcer after Probert was Mccarty but even then he had alot more skill then your protypical 4th line goons.

ForeverTML
03-24-2014, 05:23 PM
Just an update FWIW: Randy has a 68-55-16 record as the leafs coach in 139 regular season games. A winning percentage of 0.520.

Pronger84
03-24-2014, 05:25 PM
Just an update FWIW: Randy has a 68-55-16 record as the leafs coach in 139 regular season games. A winning percentage of 0.520.

In other words he's coaching at a 90 point pace.

ForeverTML
03-24-2014, 05:28 PM
Well based on winning %, its 85. But Im not the stats guru...

Pronger84
03-24-2014, 05:31 PM
Well based on winning %, its 85. But Im not the stats guru...

The way I did it (I'm not a stats guru either) was add up the point totals (wins and ot losses) then divide it by the total number of games, which comes out to 89.6, round it off it's 90.

MindzEye
03-24-2014, 05:59 PM
How many NHL teams have no prototypical "fourth line", and ostencibly play two 3rd lines?.....seems like such an obvious move in this day and age, particularly because you could fill it with young guys who are ready for the show, but that you might not be able to fit into the lineup yet.

Logic would seem to dictate that is an exponentially better decision than playing scrubs like Orr & McLaren.....but are any teams other than Detroit doing this theses days? and if not, why?

That sounds pretty progressive...so it clearly has no place in hockey.

MyNameIsJonas
03-24-2014, 06:02 PM
How many NHL teams have no prototypical "fourth line", and ostencibly play two 3rd lines?.....seems like such an obvious move in this day and age, particularly because you could fill it with young guys who are ready for the show, but that you might not be able to fit into the lineup yet.

Logic would seem to dictate that is an exponentially better decision than playing scrubs like Orr & McLaren.....but are any teams other than Detroit doing this theses days? and if not, why?

Chicago uses Brandon Bollig on the 4th line as a "face puncher" but the guy can actually play hockey too. He plays alongside Ben Smith and Marcus Kruger/Michael Handzus (when team is healthy) which forms a very capable 4th line.

leafman101
03-24-2014, 06:28 PM
The Leafs aren't losing right now because of Orr and Clarkson.

They were in 3rd place in the conference and competing for home ice before the goaltending went to shit. Its the same as blaming the 4th line and McSelke for the Leafs losing when Bozak, Kadri and Bolland were hurt.

MindzEye
03-24-2014, 06:30 PM
Nobody is blaming the 4th line for the recent slide.

leafman101
03-24-2014, 06:32 PM
Also why are we worried about taking away ice time from Kessel to play Bodie and Holland on the 4th line more?

JackBurton
03-24-2014, 06:33 PM
This has shown what trouble the team is in without great goaltending.

leafman101
03-24-2014, 06:36 PM
This has shown what trouble the team is in without great goaltending.

No. Reimer has a .896 in march and an .894 since Bernier got hurt.

Thats not just "without great goaltending" that is with non NHL goaltending.

Montana
03-24-2014, 06:37 PM
Nobody is blaming the 4th line for the recent slide.



this.

leafman101
03-24-2014, 06:38 PM
Doesn't really matter. Whining for a year about the 4th line is just weird.

If that is your biggest problem, you don't have problems.

Montana
03-24-2014, 06:39 PM
No. Reimer has a .896 in march and an .894 since Bernier got hurt.

Thats not just "without great goaltending" that is with non NHL goaltending.


.874 in his last 8 starts.



That's even worse than Toskala/Raycroft level goaltending.