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mbow30
02-15-2014, 05:41 PM
vote for which city you think is the greatest in the world.

Montana
02-15-2014, 05:41 PM
heh

Leafin'
02-15-2014, 05:55 PM
Im not understanding whats going on today...

Drugs?

the question will be: What kind? and Willing to share?

trujaysfan
02-15-2014, 06:15 PM
No Detroit, Cleveland, or Buffalo on the list???????????????

Volcanologist
02-15-2014, 06:23 PM
I think you meant Montreal or Miami.

MapleLeafBlueJayBoy
02-15-2014, 06:38 PM
Hamilton, Ontario

Bleedsblue&white
02-15-2014, 06:48 PM
vote for which city you think is the greatest in the world.

Are you missing player?

Killer93
02-15-2014, 06:50 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysmLA5TqbIY

Killer93
02-15-2014, 06:50 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZzgAjjuqZM

JackBurton
02-15-2014, 09:41 PM
Montreal is the greatest city at ****ing itself over.

Pronger84
02-15-2014, 09:42 PM
IMO the greatest city in the world is Kingston.

JackBurton
02-15-2014, 09:43 PM
I lived in Australia for a year. That country has so many amazing cities. Adelaide, Perth, Sydney.

Habspatrol
02-15-2014, 09:46 PM
My favourite city I've been to so far is Chicago. Montreal was pretty cool too.

lecoqsportif
02-15-2014, 10:31 PM
Montreal is the greatest city at ****ing itself over.

You may have heard of a place called "Detroit".

Anyway, I like Montreal, I think we can say that about a lot of other places. And "greatest"? Heh, indeed.

JohnnyHolmes
02-15-2014, 10:56 PM
New York City and it's not even close.

Pronger84
02-15-2014, 11:12 PM
New York City and it's not even close.

NYC would be a great place to visit for a few days, but I would never want to live there permanently. I don't like big cities, I grew up in Markham (basically an extension of Toronto) and it was just a gridlock and far too many people, then again I don't prefer large crowds. I like where I'm at now (Kingston), it's a healthy sized population but it has all the things a big city like Toronto or Montreal has to offer but without the congestion, noise and gridlock.... its a very peaceful city.

Deckie007
02-15-2014, 11:18 PM
Not supposed to make a poll with 2 comedy options :lol

There's nowhere in Canada I'd rather live than Toronto...have visited some cities in other countries, namely Copenhagen and Dublin that I could see myself living in. **** anywhere in the States.

soco22
02-15-2014, 11:20 PM
Gonna guess msun has a Montreal stripper eating poutine off of his dik while setting this thread up.

MindzEye
02-16-2014, 12:27 AM
New York City and it's not even close.

I ****ing love Toronto...but so much this.

Jeremy
02-16-2014, 02:50 AM
I would say New York City is objectively the best city in the world.

But Toronto is ****ing sick too.

axlsalinger
02-16-2014, 04:57 AM
New York is the greatest. Edinburgh is my favourite. Toronto and London (UK) are pretty awesome too.

voyager
02-16-2014, 09:09 AM
NYC would be a great place to visit for a few days, but I would never want to live there permanently. I don't like big cities, I grew up in Markham (basically an extension of Toronto) and it was just a gridlock and far too many people, then again I don't prefer large crowds. I like where I'm at now (Kingston), it's a healthy sized population but it has all the things a big city like Toronto or Montreal has to offer but without the congestion, noise and gridlock.... its a very peaceful city.

I wouldn't worry about living in NYC. Absolutely no way in hell would you ever have the earning potential to even last a day there.

Aberdeen
02-16-2014, 09:50 AM
Impossible to pick best. In terms of cities where I'd want to live I'd say Vienna, Barcelona, Hong Kong

JackBurton
02-16-2014, 10:50 AM
A lot of these cities seem "Great" when you're there for a drunken weekend with their local whores. But how are they to live in?

Aberdeen
02-16-2014, 11:16 AM
I wasn't in those places for a drunken weekend. I think they'd be great places to live with a half decent income. They usually score well on livability surveys.

TimHorton
02-16-2014, 12:01 PM
It's LA. Perfect weather year round, within 2 hours of fantastic skiing and surfing, and all the vices the good lord intends for you.

Habsy
02-16-2014, 12:19 PM
LA smog tears down the benefits.

What I find amazing about that poll is that, when you click results, Montreal is so great it is ahead of itself in the poll.

trujaysfan
02-16-2014, 12:30 PM
Miami if i were to pick an American city(pittsburgh close 2nd but that's due to friends etc), more than likely if i'm picking an ideal place to live it would be a small town in the Caribbean just loving the slow life.

JaysCyYoung
02-16-2014, 03:27 PM
NYC would be a great place to visit for a few days, but I would never want to live there permanently. I don't like big cities, I grew up in Markham (basically an extension of Toronto) and it was just a gridlock and far too many people, then again I don't prefer large crowds. I like where I'm at now (Kingston), it's a healthy sized population but it has all the things a big city like Toronto or Montreal has to offer but without the congestion, noise and gridlock.... its a very peaceful city.

:lol

There's no way anyone who lives in Kingston would make any of those claims.

JaysCyYoung
02-16-2014, 03:27 PM
I would say New York City is objectively the best city in the world.

But Toronto is ****ing sick too.

It's either New York City, London, or Tokyo.

JaysCyYoung
02-16-2014, 03:28 PM
It's LA. Perfect weather year round, within 2 hours of fantastic skiing and surfing, and all the vices the good lord intends for you.

Smog and pollution problems, horrific traffic congestion, poor public transportation, and high levels of violent crime detract from LA's score.

MindzEye
02-16-2014, 04:04 PM
From everything I've heard, Toronto's traffic is worse than L.A's

MindzEye
02-16-2014, 04:05 PM
yep

http://www.newgeography.com/files/cox-aus-commute-4.png

JaysCyYoung
02-16-2014, 04:08 PM
From everything I've heard, Toronto's traffic is worse than L.A's

Toronto isn't the greatest city in the world.

TimHorton
02-16-2014, 04:11 PM
Smog > Snow. The traffic in NYC is every bit as bad as LA's, and LA's public transpo isn't nearly as bad as you've heard. I was there in Octobet last year and could take transpo everywhere I needed to go.

MindzEye
02-16-2014, 04:11 PM
Toronto isn't the greatest city in the world.

No it's not, but it is a smaller metropolis, with more significant traffic problems. This clearly illustrates that L.A's famous traffic problems might be more myth than anything else.

JaysCyYoung
02-16-2014, 04:13 PM
Smog > Snow. The traffic in NYC is every bit as bad as LA's, and LA's public transpo isn't nearly as bad as you've heard. I was there in Octobet last year and could take transpo everywhere I needed to go.

Really?

I'd take snow over smog every day of the week. One's not going to kill you and warm weather tends to be extremely overrated in general.

TimHorton
02-16-2014, 04:14 PM
I dunno the snow seems to be leaving a bloody path recently.

Pronger84
02-16-2014, 04:27 PM
:lol

There's no way anyone who lives in Kingston would make any of those claims.

1. Kingston doesn't have the traffic congestion like Toronto does and its not even close. The only gridlock is downtown between 4-6pm weekdays, and on weekends in the summer with people going down to the bars or festivals

2. Noise? Not much compared to other big cities, unless you want to count Queen's homecoming lol

3. Crowds? Kingston has a large area which means the population is spread out, most of the crowds like I said occur downtown on the weekends.

Pronger84
02-16-2014, 04:29 PM
I wouldn't worry about living in NYC. Absolutely no way in hell would you ever have the earning potential to even last a day there.

How do you know I don't have the earning potential to last a few days there? Kind of assumptious no? True I wouldn't be able to afford to live in NYC year round, that's for sure.

JaysCyYoung
02-16-2014, 04:29 PM
Dude I lived there for four years. Kingston is a shitty town aside from the waterfront and student haunts.

MindzEye
02-16-2014, 04:29 PM
You're really not comparing Kingston, to Toronto...are you?

One s ranked as an Alpha world city, the other is a prison industry shit hole that's greatest claim to fame is Doug Gilmour (pbuh) and being half way in between two real places to live.

JaysCyYoung
02-16-2014, 04:31 PM
You're really not comparing Kingston, to Toronto...are you?

One s ranked as an Alpha world city, the other is a prison industry shit hole that's greatest claim to fame is Doug Gilmour (pbuh) and being half way in between two real places to live.

Nice touch.

Pronger84
02-16-2014, 04:32 PM
You're really not comparing Kingston, to Toronto...are you?

One s ranked as an Alpha world city, the other is a prison industry shit hole that's greatest claim to fame is Doug Gilmour (pbuh) and being half way in between two real places to live.

City by city no I wasn't comparing them, all I was saying was was that out of all the towns/cities I have lived in that I enjoy Kingston the best. I was also saying it has a lot less congestion/traffic/crowds etc then bigger cities like Toronto/Montreal/LA etc, it would be damn near impossible though to compare the two cities side by side.

And yes while Kingston does have several prisons, it's economy does not revolve solely around them. Kingston's biggest money makers include Queens, KGH (Kingston General Hospital), RMC (Royal Military College) not to mention a slew of government sector jobs as well.

JaysCyYoung
02-16-2014, 04:32 PM
You're really not comparing Kingston, to Toronto...are you?

One s ranked as an Alpha world city, the other is a prison industry shit hole that's greatest claim to fame is Doug Gilmour (pbuh) and being half way in between two real places to live.

Literally the only things currently keeping Kingston as a city alive are Queen's, St. Lawrence College, RMC, and the military base. Even the prisons are struggling somewhat with more modern facilities being constructed in Quebec and aging infrastructure.

It's a fairly decrepit urban centre economically right now with limited job opportunities and investment.

Pronger84
02-16-2014, 04:37 PM
Literally the only things currently keeping Kingston as a city alive are Queen's, St. Lawrence College, RMC, and the military base. Even the prisons are struggling somewhat with more modern facilities being constructed in Quebec and aging infrastructure.

It's a fairly decrepit urban centre economically right now with limited job opportunities and investment.

Yes the prisons are a dying breed here but there is still enough jobs to keep this city running on a successful level. Decrepit? Have you seen all the housing developments going on in the west end? It's shooting up like wildfire, they are building a stretch that runs between Creekford Rd south to Princess, Cat Woods drive west to Westbrook full of homes and businesses', this city is doing just fine.

JaysCyYoung
02-16-2014, 04:38 PM
Yes decrepit. Kingston has the largest concentration of run-down or delapidated housing out of any similarly-sized urban centre that I've ever seen and a huge underground heroin and crack epidemic, particularly in the area north of Princess Street.

Pronger84
02-16-2014, 04:42 PM
Yes decrepit. Kingston has the largest concentration of run-down or delapidated housing out of any similarly-sized urban centre that I've ever seen and a huge underground heroin and crack epidemic, particularly in the area north of Princess Street.

Your telling me something I don't already know, of course there is a huge problem with crack, espically out in the heights but the cops have pushed alot of them out there forcing them to reolcate over in the Cat Woods area. The worst run down housing? Dude, a lot of similar sized cities and even smaller ones have problems with drugs and poverty, it's a Canada wide problem.

As for run down houses, theres several of them in the east end of town, but once you are west of Concession or north/west of the Concession/Princess interesection there are a lot of modern to newer homes.

JaysCyYoung
02-16-2014, 04:43 PM
You literally made the claim that Kingston has all of the same services and amenities that Toronto has...that's not even close to being true.

Pronger84
02-16-2014, 04:46 PM
You literally made the claim that Kingston has all of the same services and amenities that Toronto has...that's not even close to being true.

I said it has the features of big cities such as Toronto and Montreal, we have all the typical grocery stores (food basics, metro, frescho, no frills, loblaws, walmart), we have cinemas (two of them), lots of pubs, a college as well as a huge university.

Hoss
02-16-2014, 04:47 PM
Of the places I've been and just ideal locations... NYC is unreal. I absolutely love it there. Barcelona might be second, and San Francisco kicks ass well. I really liked San Jose as well but that was a long time ago.

Would love to check out Paris, but I think Nice, France is more my style.

johnunit
02-16-2014, 04:49 PM
Yes decrepit. Kingston has the largest concentration of run-down or delapidated housing out of any similarly-sized urban centre that I've ever seen and a huge underground heroin and crack epidemic, particularly in the area north of Princess Street.

Found this one night wandering drunk, lost, and alone. "Holy crap, who put Detroit in the middle of Kingston?"

JaysCyYoung
02-16-2014, 04:52 PM
I said it has the features of big cities such as Toronto and Montreal, we have all the typical grocery stores (food basics, metro, frescho, no frills, loblaws, walmart), we have cinemas (two of them), lots of pubs, a college as well as a huge university.

1. Every urban area will have grocery stores. This is a given...

2. Every urban area will have movie theatres. This is also a given...

3. Queen's is not a huge university. It's classified as a medium-sized school by Canadian standards.

JaysCyYoung
02-16-2014, 04:52 PM
Found this one night wandering drunk, lost, and alone. "Holy crap, who put Detroit in the middle of Kingston?"

:lol

Got a chuckle out of this. It's so true.

Pronger84
02-16-2014, 04:53 PM
:lol

Got a chuckle out of this. It's so true.

LOL you must have had way too much to drink that night because Detroit is nothing like Kingston. Detroit's a run down city, the economoy is in the shitter, all kinds of crumbling or boarded up homes and businesses. I dare you to actually take a drive through Kingston while sober and during the day, you won't find any boarded up homes/businesses, you'll see the downtown is healthy and thriving, the homes are box style and made out of brick (mostly in the west end and north end).

If you really want to compare a Canadian city to Detroit it would be Hamilton.

SundinsTooth
02-16-2014, 04:53 PM
I said it has the features of big cities such as Toronto and Montreal, we have all the typical grocery stores (food basics, metro, frescho, no frills, loblaws, walmart), we have cinemas (two of them), lots of pubs, a college as well as a huge university.

Two cinemas and a Freshco?

JaysCyYoung
02-16-2014, 04:55 PM
LOL you must have had way too much to drink that night because Detroit is nothing like Kingston.

John made the remark, not me. However, I've had enough nights during undergrad where I can safely vouch for his feelings. Being eighteen and then seeing how sketchy a lot of the townie areas are was a big eye-opener.

Aberdeen
02-16-2014, 04:56 PM
I said it has the features of big cities such as Toronto and Montreal, we have all the typical grocery stores (food basics, metro, frescho, no frills, loblaws, walmart), we have cinemas (two of them), lots of pubs, a college as well as a huge university.

The "features" of big cities are not what you list. They are public transport, variety of culture, arts and entertainment, interesting architecture, multiculturalism, night life etc...

That said I wouldn't disagree that smaller cities and towns can be better places to live. It's all about what's important to you.h

MindzEye
02-16-2014, 05:00 PM
Nice touch.

Didn't want anyone to think that I would disparage the prophet

MindzEye
02-16-2014, 05:06 PM
I said it has the features of big cities such as Toronto and Montreal, we have all the typical grocery stores (food basics, metro, frescho, no frills, loblaws, walmart), we have cinemas (two of them), lots of pubs, a college as well as a huge university.

Surely you don't consider those to the best features of a big city?

voyager
02-16-2014, 05:37 PM
How do you know I don't have the earning potential to last a few days there? Kind of assumptious no? True I wouldn't be able to afford to live in NYC year round, that's for sure.

Yeah, you're dense.

leafman101
02-16-2014, 05:46 PM
Somewhere with a beach. Loved both Sydney and Vancouver which always seem to be ranked near the top of these things.

Nowhere in the US. Not until they get more guns on the street and less health care at least.

Pronger84
02-16-2014, 05:54 PM
Surely you don't consider those to the best features of a big city?

No, I also forgot to include hospital, education, public transit, the weather, cost of living (either renting or owning a home/condo) as well. Here in Kingston we have three hospitals (KGH, Hotel Dieux, St Mary's on the Lake) one of them being a 15 story trauma centre which serves all of eastern Ontario. Education is decent here with St Lawerence College and Queens University with Queens being one of the top notch universities in all of Canada, not just Ontario. The public transit is effective here, the buses run every 15 minutes during rush hour and every 30 minutes anytime else, as well they just added 2 new rapid bus lines running to and from the downtown core to help speed things up, plus at $2.50/ride it's not overly bad compared to other towns/cities in Ontario. The weather here is decent here for the most part I find, except in the winter where we tend to get a lot of freezing rain and ice, but compared to most other canadian cities its not as cold or snowy which is a plus.

voyager
02-16-2014, 05:56 PM
No, I also forgot to include hospital, education, public transit, the weather, cost of living (either renting or owning a home/condo) as well.

Kingston has some lovely group homes, you say?

JaysCyYoung
02-16-2014, 05:59 PM
The weather in Kingston is positively awful. There's maybe four or five weeks of sunlight all year and other than that it's overcast, raining, sleeting, or snowing heavily. To say nothing of the legendary wind issues.

JaysCyYoung
02-16-2014, 06:00 PM
Somewhere with a beach. Loved both Sydney and Vancouver which always seem to be ranked near the top of these things.

Nowhere in the US. Not until they get more guns on the street and less health care at least.

Sydney is probably one of the ten greatest cities in the world. World-class sports facilities, urban culture, technology sector, entertainment, and fantastic weather to boot. Just a beautiful city in every respect.

leafman101
02-16-2014, 06:02 PM
Sydney is probably one of the ten greatest cities in the world. World-class sports facilities, urban culture, technology sector, entertainment, and fantastic weather to boot. Just a beautiful city in every respect.

Yeah when I was there my exact thought was "I would move here if they had hockey."

Pronger84
02-16-2014, 06:05 PM
The weather in Kingston is positively awful. There's maybe four or five weeks of sunlight all year and other than that it's overcast, raining, sleeting, or snowing heavily. To say nothing of the legendary wind issues.

Five weeks of sunslight year round? I think that's a bit of an under-exaggeration, out of 100 cities in Canada Kingston ranks 42nd with a total of 1992 hours of sunshine (http://www.weatherstats.ca/winners.html?location=ottawa;category=40), yes it's a windy city but then again I don't mind the wind, summers here are warm but without the humidity. The only weather I don't like is the ice.

voyager
02-16-2014, 06:06 PM
Without doing any research, I think I would probably enjoy living in Aukland. Of course I know next to nothing about the place...

NYC is on the top of my list of places to live. ****ing love that place; I try to get there at least 2-3 times a year. Just so bloody expensive, last weekend I spent there I blew nearly $2000 (Not counting hotel and flight!).

voyager
02-16-2014, 06:08 PM
Five weeks of sunslight year round? I think that's a bit of an under-exaggeration, out of 100 cities in Canada Kingston ranks 42nd with a total of 1992 hours of sunshine (http://www.weatherstats.ca/winners.html?location=ottawa;category=40), yes it's a windy city but then again I don't mind the wind, summers here are warm but without the humidity. The only weather I don't like is the ice.

Come to Kingston, we have more sun than Sudbury!

JackBurton
02-16-2014, 06:59 PM
Kingston does seem to have pretty wild weather. It's a storm everytme I drive by.

Pronger84
02-16-2014, 07:01 PM
Kingston does seem to have pretty wild weather. It's a storm everytme I drive by.

In the winter we get a lot of wild weather, espically ice storms.

Pronger84
02-16-2014, 07:03 PM
Come to Kingston, we have more sun than Sudbury!

Way to miss the point, Jays was acting like Kingston is this gloomy city with the lack of sun, I proved him otherwise by showing him that Kingston actually has above average amount of sunshine.

voyager
02-16-2014, 07:05 PM
Way to miss the point, Jays was acting like Kingston is this gloomy city with the lack of sun, I proved him otherwise by showing him that Kingston actually has above average amount of sunshine.

Oh I got the point. The fact the you missed mine is a testament to just how dense you are.

JohnnyHolmes
02-16-2014, 07:15 PM
Come to Kingston, we have more sun than Sudbury!

Kingston is barely a city, let alone a big city, and belongs nowhere near the "world class" of cities.

Auckland and Sydney are both very visually appealing, but are both rather dull cities IMO.

If I had to make a top cities list of places I've actually seen, it would be:

#1 NYC

and in no particular order.

- San Francisco
- Seattle
- Singapore
- Sydney
- Cape Town
- Rome
- Barcelona


To do list:

Hong Kong
Tokyo
London
Moscow

Pronger84
02-16-2014, 07:30 PM
Kingston is barely a city, let alone a big city, and belongs nowhere near the "world class" of cities.

Auckland and Sydney are both very visually appealing, but are both rather dull cities IMO.

If I had to make a top cities list of places I've actually seen, it would be:

#1 NYC

and in no particular order.

- San Francisco
- Seattle
- Singapore
- Sydney
- Cape Town
- Rome
- Barcelona


To do list:

Hong Kong
Tokyo
London
Moscow

This thread is about a matter of opinion about what the greatest city in the world is. I don't know how to make myself more clear here IMO I prefer Kingston because its not this big sprawling city.... I cannot stand living in big cities like Toronto because of the crowds and congestion, again that's just my opinon. There are other people who love the big city life because of the multiculture and various things to do.... again nothing wrong with that, it just comes down to a matter of preference.

As for a big city that I would love to visit? Either New York or Sydney (Australia)

MyNameIsJonas
02-16-2014, 07:43 PM
i've been misled in this thread. it should be called fun? facts about kingston and are you actually a city?

MindzEye
02-16-2014, 07:48 PM
No, I also forgot to include hospital, education, public transit, the weather, cost of living (either renting or owning a home/condo) as well. Here in Kingston we have three hospitals (KGH, Hotel Dieux, St Mary's on the Lake) one of them being a 15 story trauma centre which serves all of eastern Ontario. Education is decent here with St Lawerence College and Queens University with Queens being one of the top notch universities in all of Canada, not just Ontario. The public transit is effective here, the buses run every 15 minutes during rush hour and every 30 minutes anytime else, as well they just added 2 new rapid bus lines running to and from the downtown core to help speed things up, plus at $2.50/ride it's not overly bad compared to other towns/cities in Ontario. The weather here is decent here for the most part I find, except in the winter where we tend to get a lot of freezing rain and ice, but compared to most other canadian cities its not as cold or snowy which is a plus.

None of that is indicative of a big city. If I switched the names around a bit, you could have been describing London, Guelph, Barrie, K/W.

None of those are big cities, never mind belonging in a conversation with great cities.

JohnnyHolmes
02-16-2014, 07:52 PM
i've been misled in this thread. it should be called fun? facts about kingston and are you actually a city?

Well now it should be the "My favorite city changes every 3 years" thread.

MyNameIsJonas
02-16-2014, 07:53 PM
Well now it should be the "My favorite city changes every 3 years" thread.

I'm going to burn your house down.

Deckie007
02-16-2014, 08:00 PM
Well now it should be the "My favorite city changes every 3 years" thread.

I love you.

Leafin'
02-16-2014, 08:01 PM
Kingston? LOL

I skipped through the last couple pages and anticipated it being an argument about Kingston, Jamaica. I read back and i find out this argument is about whether or not Kingston ONtario is a "world class city"... I am dying here from shortness of breath from laughing.

Kingston? LOLOLOLOL.

but in all seriousness, Kingston is an absolute shit-hole inbetween Toronto and Ottawa. While on the 401, i accelerate when i see the Kingston sign as to not be there longer than i have to.

One of the greatest cities i've visited is Miami. I don't care for the transit, economy, or any of that other rubbish. My favorite city to party in. Blue skies, palm trees, chicks wearing next to nothing>>> anything that's been argued in this thread.

Pronger84
02-16-2014, 08:37 PM
None of that is indicative of a big city. If I switched the names around a bit, you could have been describing London, Guelph, Barrie, K/W.

None of those are big cities, never mind belonging in a conversation with great cities.

I know they aren't big cities, cities nonetheless but not big ones. All I'm saying in my preference is that I prefer the city I live in currently, nothing wrong with that.

hockeylover
02-16-2014, 08:52 PM
I said it has the features of big cities such as Toronto and Montreal, we have all the typical grocery stores (food basics, metro, frescho, no frills, loblaws, walmart), we have cinemas (two of them), lots of pubs, a college as well as a huge university.

No Sobeys? Pft. Ajax has three Sobeys.

voyager
02-16-2014, 08:59 PM
You spelt Hotel Dieu wrong

Leafovic
02-16-2014, 09:02 PM
New York is a vastly overrated city but I think that is true for most megacities. There are many smaller cities (2mil to 7mil) that have all the comforts you need but provide a better life for all income groups.


I'm fascinated by Singapore. A highly developed city-state that has been brilliantly lead by the govt there. Eighty-five percent of people own their own apartments/homes. A place that spends so little on healthcare but has better outcomes than the USA or Canada. Really clean. Terrific transportation infrastracture. Aguably best food/shopping in the world. One of the best places to start a business.

JaysCyYoung
02-16-2014, 09:14 PM
No Sobeys? Pft. Ajax has three Sobeys.

There's a Sobey's next to the K-Rock Centre and across from the LCBO.

Jeremy
02-16-2014, 09:15 PM
Scarborough >>> LA

Habspatrol
02-16-2014, 09:17 PM
Oh snap... there's gonna be a rap war now!!

Jeremy
02-16-2014, 09:21 PM
Get on the mic HP ... you'll slay em!

Pronger84
02-16-2014, 09:29 PM
There's a Sobey's next to the K-Rock Centre and across from the LCBO.

There used to be a sobey's, it's now a food basics which is across from the LCBO, it's been there for at least the past 3 years.

hockeylover
02-16-2014, 09:30 PM
:lol

Oh my god.

Leafyblue
02-16-2014, 09:38 PM
Kingston does have The Kingston Brewing Company and Don Cherry. Oh wait.

MyNameIsJonas
02-16-2014, 09:39 PM
There used to be a sobey's, it's now a food basics which is across from the LCBO, it's been there for at least the past 3 years.

i'd say this warrants an NHL franchise be placed there.

MindzEye
02-16-2014, 09:47 PM
i'd say this warrants an NHL franchise be placed there.

So what you're saying is, they can count on your support?

The Kingston Ponies?

Leafin'
02-16-2014, 10:25 PM
I like that.

Kingston Phony Ponies

JaysCyYoung
02-16-2014, 10:38 PM
Kingston does have The Kingston Brewing Company and Don Cherry. Oh wait.

In all fairness, Dragon's Breath Ale is kind of epic.

Metalleaf
02-16-2014, 10:45 PM
Add me to the NYC bandwagon...if only I had money. I don't know why but I also loved London the last time I was there.

Leafyblue
02-16-2014, 10:45 PM
Oh I know...and the wings are great too. Oatmeal chocolate coffee stout is brilliant.

Metalleaf
02-16-2014, 10:46 PM
So what you're saying is, they can count on your support?

The Kingston Ponies?

http://kingstonponies.com/emblem2.jpg

MyNameIsJonas
02-16-2014, 11:04 PM
i hate you all

JohnnyHolmes
02-16-2014, 11:07 PM
New York is a vastly overrated city but I think that is true for most megacities. There are many smaller cities (2mil to 7mil) that have all the comforts you need but provide a better life for all income groups.


I'm fascinated by Singapore. A highly developed city-state that has been brilliantly lead by the govt there. Eighty-five percent of people own their own apartments/homes. A place that spends so little on healthcare but has better outcomes than the USA or Canada. Really clean. Terrific transportation infrastracture. Aguably best food/shopping in the world. One of the best places to start a business.

I think you should dig a little deeper on the subject of how happy Singaporeans are with their government. Google "NS for Singaporeans, jobs for FT" to get you started.

NS = National service
FT = Foreign talent

The cost of living is far greater than the average person can afford, there are a ton of double standards everywhere, and a lot of resentment towards foreigners that come in and take the "good jobs" and also against the foreigners that take the lower skilled / service / caregiver jobs.

I'm not an expert on Singapore by any stretch, but it's far from a happy place, and I doubt you'd find many people that think the gov't is "brilliant".

I would definitely argue the best food and shopping angles as well.

It has a nice skyline, it does have very good infrastructure as far as I can tell, and it is clean but it's also expensive as hell.

MindzEye
02-16-2014, 11:08 PM
We're really just a mirror, a window into your own soul. What you really hate is yourself.

Understandable though, if I gave up on the Leafs to cheer for a team from a place I've never been, across an international border, I'd hate myself too.

Metalleaf
02-16-2014, 11:10 PM
If only my mom's parents had kept their property in Singapore before moving back to the UK...they'd have a property worth millions....

JohnnyHolmes
02-16-2014, 11:23 PM
It's like Manhatten type rents. Next time I go there I am considering staying on the Malaysian side for about a quarter of the cost. Obviously with some drawbacks.

Leafovic
02-16-2014, 11:41 PM
I've actually done quite a bit of research on Singapore and continue to do more.

I'm not saying everyone agrees with the govt, but they took Singapore from being a 3rd world country to a 1st world in about 30yrs.

Only 2% unemployment. 85% own their own homes. And people who have lower incomes live much better than most people in the United States.


I think you should dig a little deeper on the subject of how happy Singaporeans are with their government. Google "NS for Singaporeans, jobs for FT" to get you started.

NS = National service
FT = Foreign talent

The cost of living is far greater than the average person can afford, there are a ton of double standards everywhere, and a lot of resentment towards foreigners that come in and take the "good jobs" and also against the foreigners that take the lower skilled / service / caregiver jobs.

I'm not an expert on Singapore by any stretch, but it's far from a happy place, and I doubt you'd find many people that think the gov't is "brilliant".

I would definitely argue the best food and shopping angles as well.

It has a nice skyline, it does have very good infrastructure as far as I can tell, and it is clean but it's also expensive as hell.

Pronger84
02-16-2014, 11:49 PM
Kingston? LOL

I skipped through the last couple pages and anticipated it being an argument about Kingston, Jamaica. I read back and i find out this argument is about whether or not Kingston ONtario is a "world class city"... I am dying here from shortness of breath from laughing.

Kingston? LOLOLOLOL.

but in all seriousness, Kingston is an absolute shit-hole inbetween Toronto and Ottawa. While on the 401, i accelerate when i see the Kingston sign as to not be there longer than i have to.

One of the greatest cities i've visited is Miami. I don't care for the transit, economy, or any of that other rubbish. My favorite city to party in. Blue skies, palm trees, chicks wearing next to nothing>>> anything that's been argued in this thread.

LOL you do realize the main city is south of the 401 right? You can't see anything really except for a bit of the industrial area once you get to Sir John A. Actually most towns are south of the 401 once you get past Bowmanville, all the way up to Montreal.

Matrim
02-16-2014, 11:50 PM
I need to travel more. Only been to a couple of big cities. Found Montreal to be the most beautiful and would love to live there if I knew any french. Lived in Toronto for a couple of months but I was broke so that didn't really work out too well, though I did love it. Haven't stayed long enough in others to make an opinion.

Pronger84
02-16-2014, 11:51 PM
Add me to the NYC bandwagon...if only I had money. I don't know why but I also loved London the last time I was there.

I am impressed with NYC's skyline though, and despite the fact I despise Toronto they have a good looking skyline as well.

Pronger84
02-16-2014, 11:52 PM
I need to travel more. Only been to a couple of big cities. Found Montreal to be the most beautiful and would love to live there if I knew any french. Lived in Toronto for a couple of months but I was broke so that didn't really work out too well, though I did love it. Haven't stayed long enough in others to make an opinion.

Same, I don't travel much either. Last big road trip was when I was 8, we rented an RV and drove out to to PEI (took a ferry over) and then on our way back drove down the east coast to Philly before swinging back up through Vermont and back into Ontario.

axlsalinger
02-16-2014, 11:54 PM
Goddamn, Kingston has grocery stores, a cinema, a post office and a hospital? I had no idea they could put all of those things in one municipality. Kingston is shooting up my list ...

Metalleaf
02-16-2014, 11:55 PM
Boston, New York, Paris, London, Quebec City, Dublin, were all great in their own ways.

hockeylover
02-16-2014, 11:55 PM
Goddamn, Kingston has grocery stores, a cinema, a post office and a hospital? I had no idea they could put all of those things in one municipality. Kingston is shooting up my list ...

:lol

Metalleaf
02-16-2014, 11:55 PM
Goddamn, Kingston has grocery stores, a cinema, a post office and a hospital? I had no idea they could put all of those things in one municipality. Kingston is shooting up my list ...

Holyhead >>

Pronger84
02-16-2014, 11:58 PM
Holyhead >>

Who's Holyhead?

Metalleaf
02-17-2014, 12:00 AM
Holyhead is a city in Northern Wales and has a vastly superior infrastructure to Kingston. No Sobeys though.

Metalleaf
02-17-2014, 12:01 AM
http://www.holyhead.org/visitwales/holyhead.jpg

hockeylover
02-17-2014, 12:02 AM
Not a popular choice I'm guessing but I loved Philadelphia.

Metalleaf
02-17-2014, 12:03 AM
Philly's probably a lot like Boston, historical, interesting residents and cuisines.

Pronger84
02-17-2014, 12:04 AM
Oh ok, I've never been to the UK so I can't comment on it. Although, I do prefer Kingston's infrastructure though- There's lot's of historic buildings, a beautiful waterfront that isn't obstructed by skyscrapers, a vibrant downtown with lots to offer during the summer months, tons of off the path pubs, the transit system I find is really effective and easy to navigate, plus all the other usual amenities.

Pronger84
02-17-2014, 12:04 AM
http://www.holyhead.org/visitwales/holyhead.jpg

Stunning picture.

JaysCyYoung
02-17-2014, 12:09 AM
Oh ok, I've never been to the UK so I can't comment on it. Although, I do prefer Kingston's infrastructure though- There's lot's of historic buildings, a beautiful waterfront that isn't obstructed by skyscrapers, a vibrant downtown with lots to offer during the summer months, tons of off the path pubs, the transit system I find is really effective and easy to navigate, plus all the other usual amenities.

I'm beginning to strongly suspect that you've never been to Kingston, let alone live in it.

-- signed a Queen's grad.

Pronger84
02-17-2014, 12:10 AM
I'm beginning to strongly suspect that you've never been to Kingston, let alone live in it.

-- signed a Queen's grad.

I've been living here since 2011, so I'd think I'd know the in's and out's of the city.

Metalleaf
02-17-2014, 12:10 AM
I went to Kingston once...I only remember staying in the Queens dorms...not a whole lot else.

hockeylover
02-17-2014, 12:11 AM
Pronger, how many big cities have you even been to?

Pronger84
02-17-2014, 12:13 AM
Pronger, how many big cities have you even been to?

I've been to Toronto (grew up in Markham), Montreal, Phillidephia, Boston, Ottawa.

JaysCyYoung
02-17-2014, 12:13 AM
I went to Kingston once...I only remember staying in the Queens dorms...not a whole lot else.

Please tell me that you went to Smijie's when it was still around. :lol

Metalleaf
02-17-2014, 12:17 AM
Please tell me that you went to Smijie's when it was still around. :lol

Unfortunately no, it was a grade 8 field trip...I remember more of my trip to Southern France than I do Kingston and that was more recent.

Preston_Mizzi
02-17-2014, 12:18 AM
I've been to Toronto (grew up in Markham), Montreal, Phillidephia, Boston, Ottawa.
I've been to those places too and Kingston is by far the best.

#teampronger

lecoqsportif
02-17-2014, 12:22 AM
City? Kingston is a large village.

Pronger84
02-17-2014, 12:22 AM
I've been to those places too and Kingston is by far the best.

#teampronger

Thanks, and I have to admit I don't remember much about Montreal just remember driving over this long bridge and seeing the skyline.

Pronger84
02-17-2014, 12:23 AM
City? Kingston is a large village.

Village? No that would be a place like Bancroft, last I checked a population of 130,000 is a city.... granted not a big city though.

lecoqsportif
02-17-2014, 12:25 AM
Oh, I know. But it's a damned village.

MapleLeafBlueJayBoy
02-17-2014, 12:39 AM
Zurich, Ontario

axlsalinger
02-17-2014, 12:59 AM
Alexandria.
Atlantis.

trujaysfan
02-17-2014, 01:08 AM
so went right from page 3 to 7.... are we still talking about kingston in a thread titled "Greatest City in the World"?

:nono

MindzEye
02-17-2014, 01:35 AM
Alexandria.
Atlantis.

Gotham City >>>

JohnnyHolmes
02-17-2014, 02:34 AM
I've actually done quite a bit of research on Singapore and continue to do more.

I'm not saying everyone agrees with the govt, but they took Singapore from being a 3rd world country to a 1st world in about 30yrs.

Only 2% unemployment. 85% own their own homes. And people who have lower incomes live much better than most people in the United States.

Well, I am not going to argue with you, however let me argue with you... :smilewinkgrin:

They have these housing blocks that are called "HDB" and you can eventually get in to one of them if you are a citizen or permanent resident. There are hoops to jump through, but basically it's public housing. Evil socialism at work.

As for low incomes living better than most Americans though...no chance. You can have entire families living in one apartment, then still renting out rooms to students or foreign workers.

Just google condo rentals or room rentals in SG and look at the prices.

If you're rich in Singapore, you're going to live at a very high standard, but from what I've seen the "average" person doesn't make a lot of money, can't afford their own place, and if you want to get a car on the road...forget about it.

Again, I am no expert, but I have spent about 4 months there in the past year.

I do like a lot about it, but it's really REALLY hot, really REALLY expensive and let's just say you don't want to break the law there, and they have some strange laws, and very harsh penalties for breaking them.

JohnnyHolmes
02-17-2014, 02:45 AM
Some hnnnnnggggg skylines.


http://www.diydays.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/toronto.jpeg

http://scottygraham.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Singapore.jpg

http://cameronclayton.com/photos/large/auckland-skyline-at-night.jpg

http://lj.genkin.org/042/spot-2-mrs-macquaries-chair.jpg

Leafyblue
02-17-2014, 08:59 AM
http://www.kingstonrealestateinfo.com/images/city-shot-2.jpg

Leafovic
02-17-2014, 10:40 AM
They have these housing blocks that are called "HDB" and you can eventually get in to one of them if you are a citizen or permanent resident. There are hoops to jump through, but basically it's public housing. Evil socialism at work.


The majority of housing is public but you pay a mortgage and it is your asset.(you can sell it) The government has also been really good at maintaining the asset and do regular maintenance on the outside and inside of the buildings, so the apartments not only maintain their value but often increase. The issues about attaining housing is largely related to the tiny size of the city-state. (710km2) You have about 5mil people trying to fit into that small space. I'd also suggest there is a cultural factor in regards to living with family. But it is hard to blame the govt because they planned quite well, they mostly built hi-rises. 80% of the population live in apartments.

I was curious about Singapore because it is a nation that combines direct govt intervention with a dynamic private sector. Nordic nations are also not afraid to take the best aspects of socialism and capitalism. I love nations that are practical, that look at the best ideas around the world instead of getting consumed by ideology. As a result, they are highly efficient and have similar or better outcomes than we have here.

The most unique thing about Singapore is that they "force" their citizens to save. Each person has three personal savings accounts and 40% of their paycheque is deposited into the accounts. 30% of the cheque goes into a ordinary account that is geared toward buying a home, paying for education, and investing. You can only spend this money on these goods. Another account is only for medical expenses. The final one is for pension. So the government in essence promotes responsibility and targets which goods they prefer the citizens to buy. The money can also be pooled among family members. That last point could explain why people live with their families. (they pool money together to buy an apartment outright)

There are public and private hospitals but even the public hospitals charge for service based on income. People with lower earnings are subsidized. Some of the money from the rich (who often go to private hospitals that charge market value) is taken to subsidize the poor. The govt there does a lot of subsidizing. I've also heard that people are only required to pay the first 2k of care/per year, beyond that the government covers it. Kids and seniors (who run out of savings) are covered as well. One of the main reasons that they spend so little on healthcare but have BETTER outcomes (than USA or Canada) is that doctor visits decreased about 67%. So people's behavior changed.

On the other hand though, you have this dynamic private sector, in large part because there is no minimum wage, (but there is an income supplement for low-skilled workers) resulting in only 2% unemployment, some of the lowest corporate taxes in the world, and ease in setting up a business.

You have 85% of people owning their own home, 95% finishing some form of higher education, (including technical schools), and people living in very decent housing. The food there is really cheap as well. (50% less than here)

So even though there is income inequality, I really think Singaporeans have it pretty good. I love the mixed system they have set-up.

Pronger84
02-17-2014, 12:24 PM
Some hnnnnnggggg skylines.


http://www.diydays.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/toronto.jpeg

http://scottygraham.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Singapore.jpg

http://cameronclayton.com/photos/large/auckland-skyline-at-night.jpg

http://lj.genkin.org/042/spot-2-mrs-macquaries-chair.jpg


Stunning skylines, I really like Aucklands' the best out of the ones u posted, something eccentric yet unqique about it.

Pronger84
02-17-2014, 12:28 PM
http://www.kingstonrealestateinfo.com/images/city-shot-2.jpg

I also love Kingston's skyline, has a very european-esqe feel about it.

johnunit
02-17-2014, 12:39 PM
Kingston is barely a city, let alone a big city, and belongs nowhere near the "world class" of cities.

Auckland and Sydney are both very visually appealing, but are both rather dull cities IMO.

If I had to make a top cities list of places I've actually seen, it would be:

#1 NYC

and in no particular order.

- San Francisco
- Seattle
- Singapore
- Sydney
- Cape Town
- Rome
- Barcelona


To do list:

Hong Kong
Tokyo
London
Moscow

Is Cape Town as scary as it's made out to be? I'd walk nearly anywhere in Detroit, but the stats for South Africa... yikes.

johnunit
02-17-2014, 12:45 PM
Well, I am not going to argue with you, however let me argue with you... :smilewinkgrin:

They have these housing blocks that are called "HDB" and you can eventually get in to one of them if you are a citizen or permanent resident. There are hoops to jump through, but basically it's public housing. Evil socialism at work.

As for low incomes living better than most Americans though...no chance. You can have entire families living in one apartment, then still renting out rooms to students or foreign workers.

Just google condo rentals or room rentals in SG and look at the prices.

If you're rich in Singapore, you're going to live at a very high standard, but from what I've seen the "average" person doesn't make a lot of money, can't afford their own place, and if you want to get a car on the road...forget about it.

Again, I am no expert, but I have spent about 4 months there in the past year.

I do like a lot about it, but it's really REALLY hot, really REALLY expensive and let's just say you don't want to break the law there, and they have some strange laws, and very harsh penalties for breaking them.

To expand on this, cars cost roughly 3-6 times what they do here. There's some sort of bonkers licensing system that restricts who can own a car, but more than that the initial purchase price is absurd. A new BMW 3 series will run $2-300K. A minivan or economy car is still over 100K. Combined with the crazy housing prices (not out of line with the size and quality of city, to be fair) you get way, way less actual buying power than the numbers suggest. Sure making 100K in singapore isn't that hard. But that 100K will have you taking the bus to a 1 room apartment.

trujaysfan
02-17-2014, 12:53 PM
To expand on this, cars cost roughly 3-6 times what they do here. There's some sort of bonkers licensing system that restricts who can own a car, but more than that the initial purchase price is absurd. A new BMW 3 series will run $2-300K. A minivan or economy car is still over 100K. Combined with the crazy housing prices (not out of line with the size and quality of city, to be fair) you get way, way less actual buying power than the numbers suggest. Sure making 100K in singapore isn't that hard. But that 100K will have you taking the bus to a 1 room apartment.

My brother might actually be moving to Singapore in the near future and the thing that has him excited is the 10% tax rate, no capital gains tax either. The public transit system appears to be very very good and the city/state in general appears to be as clean as they come.

Leafovic
02-17-2014, 01:02 PM
The car prices are on purpose. They want to maintain a clean city. There is a really wacky rule about not being able to chew gum for the same reason.

It really depends what you value.

I find it funny that most of you place NYC as number 1 but complain about Singapore's housing. The average person in NYC lives in an expensive rat-hole. I don't see that kind of disgusting housing in Singapore.







To expand on this, cars cost roughly 3-6 times what they do here. There's some sort of bonkers licensing system that restricts who can own a car, but more than that the initial purchase price is absurd. A new BMW 3 series will run $2-300K. A minivan or economy car is still over 100K. Combined with the crazy housing prices (not out of line with the size and quality of city, to be fair) you get way, way less actual buying power than the numbers suggest. Sure making 100K in singapore isn't that hard. But that 100K will have you taking the bus to a 1 room apartment.

Aberdeen
02-17-2014, 01:10 PM
My only issue is I found Singapore to be a little boring compared with other cities. Not that things need to be crappy, but for me a city needs to have a little edge, a little mystery, for it to be interesting.

CH1
02-17-2014, 01:16 PM
I suppose if you don't care about music, visual arts, fashion, etc, comparing NYC to Singapore makes sense.

In fact, there is a fear that NYC is pricing itself out of being a vibrant city that welcomes the un-established and is on its way to becoming Abu Dhabi.

Interesting piece on the topic by David Byrne.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/07/new-york-1percent-stifles-creative-talent

Leafovic
02-17-2014, 01:19 PM
Singapore leads the world in funding for the Arts. And one of the best places to shop in the world. I'd say best food city as well.


I suppose if you don't care about music, visual arts, fashion, etc, comparing NYC to Singapore makes sense.

In fact, there is a fear that NYC is pricing itself out of being a vibrant city that welcomes the un-established and is on its way to becoming Abu Dhabi.

Interesting piece on the topic by David Byrne.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/07/new-york-1percent-stifles-creative-talent

Aberdeen
02-17-2014, 01:29 PM
.... I'd say best food city as well.

What do you base that on?

JackBurton
02-17-2014, 01:30 PM
Cornwall, Ontario!

CaptainBolduke
02-17-2014, 01:33 PM
Vegas.

Leafovic
02-17-2014, 01:36 PM
What do you base that on?

Partly because its probably the main pastime of Singaporeans (hard to find a nation more passionate about food), partly from the opinions of reputable chefs (Bourdain called it the best food city and he's been there 7 times or so), partly the diversity of food that they have, partly how affordable it is.

Aberdeen
02-17-2014, 01:37 PM
For all those reasons I'd rank HK much higher.

Leafovic
02-17-2014, 01:40 PM
No doubt. Hong Kong is up there. I want to visit both.


For all those reasons I'd rank HK much higher.

JackBurton
02-17-2014, 01:44 PM
I once got an amazing blowjob in Adelaide, so that's my choice.

CH1
02-17-2014, 01:45 PM
I realize food in Singapore is good, that's why I didn't include food. I stuck to art forms that require some element of daring and subversiveness (that NYC once displayed) -- you won't find that type of energy in Singapore.

Leafovic
02-17-2014, 01:47 PM
I don't disagree with that, obviously Singapore's music industry is not exactly world-class. lol At the same time though, they do cherish the Arts and fund it really well (unlike most nations).


I realize food in Singapore is good, that's why I didn't include food. I stuck to art forms that require some element of daring and subversiveness (that NYC once displayed) -- you won't find that type of energy in Singapore.

johnunit
02-17-2014, 01:48 PM
The car prices are on purpose. They want to maintain a clean city. There is a really wacky rule about not being able to chew gum for the same reason.

It really depends what you value.

I find it funny that most of you place NYC as number 1 but complain about Singapore's housing. The average person in NYC lives in an expensive rat-hole. I don't see that kind of disgusting housing in Singapore.

I get why they do that, but I guess I'd rather just live somewhere that isn't so cramped that restricting ownership of cars comes off as a reasonable solution. Restricting driving (by taxing it or incentivising alternatives) makes sense to me, but if you've got so many problems that car ownership in and of itself is worth restricting, I'll pass.

And personally I'd avoid NYC for similar reasons, at least Manhattan.

Aberdeen
02-17-2014, 01:49 PM
Don't get wrong, Singapore's a damn great city-state, just saying why I wouldn't put it on my top top list.

MindzEye
02-17-2014, 01:57 PM
Singapore?

Yeah, no thanks. You've always had a bit of a thing for oppressive governments though. A massive list of ridiculously goofy laws in play in Singapore that most thinking individuals would want no part of.

JohnnyHolmes
02-17-2014, 02:00 PM
Is Cape Town as scary as it's made out to be? I'd walk nearly anywhere in Detroit, but the stats for South Africa... yikes.

Not from my experience, but I spent the majority of the time on the waterfront, around Long Street or Table Mountain. Surely if you go looking for trouble, you'll find it. That's everywhere though.

We did get many warnings to be careful / aware of your surroundings.

Back to Singapore, it is a pretty tame city. The bar district is really cool, it is along the Singapore river, and there are tons of clubs / restaurants around. It's called Clarke Quay.

It's very expensive to go out for a couple of beers. For example a regular pint of draught beer can run you anywhere from $10 - $12, maybe a bit higher or a bit lower depending on where you are, but at night, after 9pm I think, they raise all the prices and that same beer can start costing you as much as $18.

They also have a night time surcharge on taxis. The MRT stops running at around midnight as well, so that option is out.

What a lot of people do is buy their alcohol and drink on the bridge or along the river. For such a strict place, they are remarkably tolerant of public alcohol consumption.

Crime is pretty low from what I have read and seen. I never felt the least bit on guard walking around at night or anything like that. Women would be out jogging in parks late at night without fear as well. Actually a lot of people run at night as it is just too hot in the daytime.

It's a pretty cool place. I'm still not a big fan of the food though. Malaysian cuisine isn't really my thing.

JohnnyHolmes
02-17-2014, 02:06 PM
Singapore?

Yeah, no thanks. You've always had a bit of a thing for oppressive governments though. A massive list of ridiculously goofy laws in play in Singapore that most thinking individuals would want no part of.

It's illegal to get a bj to completion, but it's ok as long as it leads to sex.

Obviously not enforced, but still on the books.

MindzEye
02-17-2014, 02:12 PM
It's illegal to get a bj to completion, but it's ok as long as it leads to sex.

Obviously not enforced, but still on the books.

Porn is illegal. Being naked in your home if someone sees you is illegal. Logging on to an unlocked wifi signal is illegal.

Basically, they spend way too much time making restrictive laws.

axlsalinger
02-17-2014, 02:15 PM
Their desire to get into and monitor what happens in people's bedrooms has a level of detail matched only by the American Republican Party.

Leafovic
02-17-2014, 02:19 PM
Singapore?

Yeah, no thanks. You've always had a bit of a thing for oppressive governments though. A massive list of ridiculously goofy laws in play in Singapore that most thinking individuals would want no part of.

I certainly don't agree with some of the laws but it is hardly surprising that people with Western values would question other regions values. Many of the laws make sense. Most people in the West are arrogant, and believe it is practical and neccesary for all nations to be liberal democracies. I don't totally agree with this view. Lee Kuan Yew, who led Singapore from its indepedence to 1990, and then remained a minister until recently, is Cambridge educated. This is a brilliant man. Taking a nation from the third world to first in about thirty-forty years, while maintaining social cohesion in an ethnically diverse nation, is not an easy task.

I think we can also acknowledge really great cities (that might not even be ideal for us personally) but realize it is quite ideal for many others.

MindzEye
02-17-2014, 02:39 PM
Tying arrogance to the belief in personal freedoms might be the most ridiculous stance you've ever held on this board, and that's no small feat.

But, as I already mentioned, you've always had a thing for authoritarians (as long as you agree with them, of course. That's always the rub with authoritarianism, it works awesome right up until they disagree with you) so there's no surprise that you'll leap to defend the right of a government to do this.

If you want to stroke them for bringing the country from 3rd world to 1st world status so quickly, cool, have at it. It's a meaningful economic achievement that the western concept of globalization and lowering trade barriers has made possible (those damn arrogant westerners exporting their liberal economic concepts to the rest of the world). But it's also been achieved by China over the same time period, when do we start stroking the PRC? They have all sorts of goofy, liberty restricting laws too.

Leafovic
02-17-2014, 02:44 PM
Tying arrogance to the belief in personal freedoms might be the most ridiculous stance you've ever held on this board, and that's no small feat.

But, as I already mentioned, you've always had a thing for authoritarians (as long as you agree with them, of course. That's always the rub with authoritarianism, it works awesome right up until they disagree with you) so there's no surprise that you'll leap to defend the right of a government to do this.

If you want to stroke them for bringing the country from 3rd world to 1st world status so quickly, cool, have at it. It's a meaningful economic achievement that the western concept of globalization and lowering trade barriers has made possible (those damn arrogant westerners exporting their liberal economic concepts to the rest of the world). But it's also been achieved by China over the same time period, when do we start stroking the PRC? They have all sorts of goofy, liberty restricting laws too.

Singapore is not an authoritarian state.

MindzEye
02-17-2014, 02:53 PM
Singapore is not an authoritarian state.

If it looks like a duck, and sounds like a duck....

I mean, I could list off all the ridiculous, authoritarian flavoured laws they have there if you really want (I would imagine that you would find their laws against homosexuality of particular distaste).

Authoritarianism is more than simply not letting people vote. You know it's a defacto one party system over there, right?


Any male person who, in public or private, commits, or abets the commission of, or procures or attempts to procure the commission by any male person of, any act of gross indecency with another male person, shall be punished with imprisonment for a term which may extend to 2 years.

That's hard time, son. This is your greatest city on the planet? A place where the way you were born makes to a criminal? You've got your priorities for what makes a place great, completely ****ed up.

JohnnyHolmes
02-17-2014, 03:10 PM
And yet there are blowjobs happening all over Geylang, and trannies walking around all over the place.

I'm sure you could find some really strange laws around north america as well. It's not enforced.

Leafovic
02-17-2014, 03:22 PM
Laws are a reflection of a nations cultural heritage, history, values, and particular circumstances. The idea then that you can consider particular laws and conclude that restriction is 100% a sign of an authoratarian govt is sort of silly. The laws against gays was a reflection of the culture, history, and conservative nature of Singaporeans (at least in the past) Leaders follow the wishes of their citizens. Lee Kuan Yew is agnostic and has indicated his belief that being gay is genetic. He's also said that there are some laws on the book that are not enforced (like the gay law) and a large part of that is that Singaporean society is much more liberal than they use to be.

I've actually watched political debates from Singapore, the former leader (Lee Kuan Yew) being interviewed and debating with media, and it is fascinating.

Further, it is not a one party system. Yes that party has been in power since Singapore's independence but another party has won seats in the parliament. There are regular elections and the elections seem to be no more corrupt than by Western standards. But the parties dominance is hardly surprising because they have done a fantastic job. They have open debates in parliament which are broadcast. All the parties go door to door and get tv time to present their views. In fact, Lee was very open in stating that it wasn't his job to make sure it was easy for the opposition to win. He basically said look at the USA. In fact, the PAP have done certain things like gerrymandering to prevent the opposition in terms of gaining ground. But I have not seen any proof for anything more grave, in fact less so then what is going on in the USA.











If it looks like a duck, and sounds like a duck....

I mean, I could list off all the ridiculous, authoritarian flavoured laws they have there if you really want (I would imagine that you would find their laws against homosexuality of particular distaste).

Authoritarianism is more than simply not letting people vote. You know it's a defacto one party system over there, right?



That's hard time, son. This is your greatest city on the planet? A place where the way you were born makes to a criminal? You've got your priorities for what makes a place great, completely ****ed up.

MindzEye
02-17-2014, 03:27 PM
And yet there are blowjobs happening all over Geylang, and trannies walking around all over the place.

I'm sure you could find some really strange laws around north america as well. It's not enforced.

Yep, there are still some places that consider sodomy illegal. None of them are "greatest city in the world" contestants though. Singapore's government has resisted any moves to scrap the law, so whether it's actively enforced (apparently the last conviction was in 2007...so we're not talking about ancient history here) or not, it's still there as a symbol of the beliefs that the ruling class has.

Leafovic
02-17-2014, 03:29 PM
I watched this few months back. This is fascinating stuff. The media/some students in a dialogue with the father of Singapore, Lee Kuan Yew. He led Singapore from its inception to 1990 and then was a key minister until recently. It is in English.


http://youtu.be/m0_WPUxlvu8

MindzEye
02-17-2014, 03:39 PM
aws are a reflection of a nations cultural heritage, history, values, and particular circumstances. The idea then that you can consider particular laws and conclude that restriction is 100% a sign of an authoratarian govt is sort of silly. The laws against gays was a reflection of the culture, history, and conservative nature of Singaporeans (at least in the past) Leaders follow the wishes of their citizens. Lee Kuan Yew is agnostic and has indicated his belief that being gay is genetic. He's also said that there are some laws on the book that are not enforced (like the gay law) and a large part of that is that Singaporean society is much more liberal than they use to be.

and that's cool, but this is what the sitting Prime Minister had to say about it last summer:
"not issues that we can settle one way or the other, and it's really best for us just to leave them be, and just agree to disagree."

So, you can call the law a thing of the past all that you want, but when the sitting Prime Minister won't touch the possibility of scrapping the law with a 10 foot pole, it still remains a sadly relevant piece of legislation.


Further, it is not a one party system.

Never said that it was. I said that it's a defacto 1 party system, and it is. Whenever the majority of elections for open seats occur between members of the same party, you're living in a defacto 1 party system. This is exacerbated by the incredibly short campaigns, 9 days of lead time between election call and election day makes it almost impossible for any sort of organized challenge against incumbents to occur.


In fact, Lee was very open in stating that it wasn't his job to make sure it was easy for the opposition to win. He basically said look at the USA. In fact, the PAP have done certain things like gerrymandering to prevent the opposition in terms of gaining ground. But I have not seen any proof for anything more grave, in fact less so then what is going on in the USA.


Exactly. It's a 1 party system, with some democratic decoration, nothing more.

It's a city state of excessive laws, corporal punishment, in a defacto 1 party political environment.

Again, congrats on them getting into the modern world, but that in itself doesn't make a place great.

CH1
02-17-2014, 03:42 PM
Singapore seems like a nice place to visit when I turn 75.

MindzEye
02-17-2014, 03:51 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-22088852


Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong sums up the reason.

"Singapore is basically a conservative society," he said. "The family is the basic building block of this society. And by family in Singapore we mean one man, one woman, marrying, having children and bringing up children within that framework of a stable family unit."

If Stephen Harper said that, he'd be tarred and feathered.

That's basically, word for word what KB was openly mocked for saying around here for years.

Leafovic
02-17-2014, 04:15 PM
Authoritarianism is more than simply not letting people vote.

Certainly, similarly, it is short-sighted to conclude that only individual freedom results in being free. Individual freedoms have to be balanced with social cohesion, sometimes limiting certain speech to promote respect among peoples, especially in nations that are diverse in terms of ethnicity and religion. Freedom is also about standard of life, if you can't get decent housing, an education, have low income, then I'd argue you aren't free. Then there is the balance between allowing the ruling party to govern vs promoting multi-party systems, prop. representation, etc Again, be short-sighted to conclude that more parties, everyone being represented better in parliament, would somehow promote freedom. Sure, you can argue it is very democratic, but if the ruling party can't govern because of gridlock, that is hardly good for anyone.

The United States, considered by many as the most free nation in the world, is certainly not as free as some suggest. Not only because many southern states still have fairly anti-gay laws (including gay people being allowed to be kicked out of restaurants), not just because of the horrible income inequality, insignificant safety net and no equality of opportunity, but also because a lot of Western people are short-sighted in holding the belief that individual freedoms = freedom.

Leafovic
02-17-2014, 04:23 PM
Isn't it telling though that he sounds like Harper and not Ahmadinejad?


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-22088852



If Stephen Harper said that, he'd be tarred and feathered.

That's basically, word for word what KB was openly mocked for saying around here for years.

Habsy
02-17-2014, 04:41 PM
Miami if i were to pick an American city(pittsburgh close 2nd but that's due to friends etc), more than likely if i'm picking an ideal place to live it would be a small town in the Caribbean just loving the slow life.

You'll feel differently about Miami after you've lived there for a while.

Habsy
02-17-2014, 04:44 PM
If you want to measure a great city by it's women... Budapest. KoreaBoy could probably get laid by a hottie there.

Habsy
02-17-2014, 04:45 PM
And btw, Bruges is an awesome city.

MindzEye
02-17-2014, 04:47 PM
Certainly, similarly, it is short-sighted to conclude that only individual freedom results in being free.

Nope. You seem to lack fundamental understandings on what "free" means. Now, the argument whether unrestrained freedom is necessarily a good thing is entirely separate, but individual freedoms are absolutely the textbook definition of being free.


Individual freedoms have to be balanced with social cohesion, sometimes limiting certain speech to promote respect among peoples, especially in nations that are diverse in terms of ethnicity and religion.

Funny, quite a few places in the world manage to do this without much limitation of speech. One would be excused for not realizing that you're writing this shit from a nation that is diverse in terms of ethnicity and religion. Much, much more diverse than Singapore.

With that out of the way though, this is more language of the authoritarian and their apologists. What exactly is it about restricting human rights parades, political speech, religious speech that promotes "respect among peoples". All it promotes is the authority of the government.


Freedom is also about standard of life, if you can't get decent housing, an education, have low income, then I'd argue you aren't free.

Interesting interpretation. You're flat wrong of course, but interesting. Again, as above, you're conflating "freedom" with other concepts.



Then there is the balance between allowing the ruling party to govern vs promoting multi-party systems, prop. representation, etc Again, be short-sighted to conclude that more parties, everyone being represented better in parliament, would somehow promote freedom. If the ruling party can't govern because of gridlock, that is hardly good for anyone.


Again, more authoritarian apologista.



So I'd suggest you are sort of looking at this very simply without doing much research on Singapore.

One of us sure seems to have a simple view of this, it's not me though. Your entire argument here is...they've done a good job (so far), so it's all cool.





The United States, known as the most free nation in the world, is certainly not as free as some suggest.

Well sure, because only morons consider it to be the most free nation in the world. The U.S conditions it's citizens to believe it, but any analysis of what makes a nation free shows some troubling limitations.


Not only because many southern states still have fairly anti-gay laws (including gay people being allowed to be kicked out of restaurants), but also because by being short-sighted and holding the belief that individual freedoms = total freedom, they are not as free as they may think.

Not quite sure what spurred this, as I'm neither American, nor a proponent of that mess they have down there these days.

MindzEye
02-17-2014, 04:49 PM
Isn't it telling though that he sounds like Harper and not Ahmadinejad?

Well, except he doesn't sound like Harper at all. Like I said, if Harper made that type of public declaration, there would be protests in every Canadian city, within the hour. Surely you're not holding the former President of Iran as the bar here?

JohnnyHolmes
02-17-2014, 04:56 PM
You'll feel differently about Miami after you've lived there for a while.

Truth.

Almost every person I know that lives here hates it in one way or another. The heat, the humidity and the lack of English are the most common complaints.

JohnnyHolmes
02-17-2014, 05:03 PM
Not quite sure what spurred this, as I'm neither American, nor a proponent of that mess they have down there these days.

I just saw on either the Daily Show or Colbert Report a little while back where they sent out a gay couple to act all gay in public and propose in malls or diners, etc. It was in Alabama and Mississippi, whose politicians were duking it out to be the last state to allow gay marriage (or something)

The reactions they got were overwhelmingly positive from the various crowds, or at the very least, quite indifferent.

You have to think they were hoping to invoke the stereotypical southern moron response, but they didn't get it.

Unless that was their true agenda :)

Liberals making everybody think the south is down for teh gays.

Pronger84
02-17-2014, 05:03 PM
You'll feel differently about Miami after you've lived there for a while.

I'd love to visit Miami for a week or so during the winter, but nah I wouldn't want to live there full time.

JohnnyHolmes
02-17-2014, 05:07 PM
I could do it.

Pronger84
02-17-2014, 05:07 PM
I could do it.

Same here.

CH1
02-17-2014, 05:08 PM
And btw, Bruges is an awesome city.

On my goto list ever since I saw the movie. (In Bruges)

Leafovic
02-17-2014, 05:32 PM
Again, more authoritarian apologista.

So anyone who favors governability over representation is authoritarian?
Discussions about governability vs representation are common in all democratic nations and all nations attempt to balance these two concepts.




One of us sure seems to have a simple view of this, it's not me though. Your entire argument here is...they've done a good job (so far), so it's all cool.

No. My view is that it is silly to conclude that some restrictive laws, irrespective of the countries culture, values, history, and particular circumstance, is indicative of an authoratarian regime. In fact, the laws seem to quite accuratley represent the society.


Again, as above, you're conflating "freedom" with other concepts.

No I agree. Individual freedom means being free, but unrestrainted freedom imo is not a good thing, and individual freedom considered in a vacuum is hardly useful for any substantive discussion.

JaysCyYoung
02-17-2014, 06:06 PM
You'll feel differently about Miami after you've lived there for a while.

Doesn't Miami also have a huge poverty and drug problem? I can think of much nicer cities with higher standards of income and quality of life index that have women that are just as hot.

MindzEye
02-17-2014, 06:27 PM
So anyone who favors governability over representation is authoritarian?

By definition, absolutely.


Discussions about governability vs representation are common in all democratic nations and all nations attempt to balance these two concepts.

Sure, and Singapore isn't remotely balanced. I've already gone over the why.



No. My view is that it is silly to conclude that some restrictive laws, irrespective of the countries culture, values, history, and particular circumstance, is indicative of an authoratarian regime. In fact, the laws seem to quite accuratley represent the society.

Exactly, and the values of the society are shit human rights, control of dissent, control of the media, strict limitations on speech. Again, if that screams out "greatest city in the world" to you, it says a lot more about you, than I think you realize.


No I agree. Individual freedom means being free, but unrestrainted freedom imo is not a good thing, and individual freedom considered in a vacuum is hardly useful for any substantive discussion.

But who has said anything about unrestrained freedom? I certainly haven't (aside from an offhanded mention of it's value as a discussion topic unto itself). Absolutely though, by any objective analysis, Singapore falls well into the authoritarian range of the scale when it comes to freedom.

Don't take my word for it, there's a lot of work that's been done chronicling it:

Freedom of the World's ranking system has consistently "partly free' with 4's and 5's across the board on their scale (1-7, with 1 being the best). The closest comparables in the region are the liberty loving regimes of Pakistan, Sri Lanka, & Thailand.

Reporters without borders just ranked Singapore 150th in the world for freedom of their press. With the military dictatorship of Burma coming in 145th, and the ****ing Congo being 151st. Auspicious company to keep.

Defending the freedom of Singapore is a laughable proposition. Like I've already said, the only argument you have here is "the authoritarian government has done a good job". That's it. Just scrap the freedom window dressing in your argument and accept the fact of the matter. You're drawn to authoritarian, orderly societies. Apparently even one where your sexual orientation is criminalized.

In no way, shape or form is that a great society, regardless of their economic achievements.

MindzEye
02-17-2014, 06:28 PM
Doesn't Miami also have a huge poverty and drug problem? I can think of much nicer cities with higher standards of income and quality of life index that have women that are just as hot.

I don't know if anywhere has Miami Cuban hot, level of women though. Not in those numbers anyway.

Leafovic
02-17-2014, 07:11 PM
By definition, absolutely.



The Canadian political arrangement clearly favors governability. The system promotes majority governments and the P.M is insanley powerful within a majority.






Freedom of the World's ranking system has consistently "partly free' with 4's and 5's across the board on their scale (1-7, with 1 being the best). The closest comparables in the region are the liberty loving regimes of Pakistan, Sri Lanka, & Thailand.

Reporters without borders just ranked Singapore 150th in the world for freedom of their press. With the military dictatorship of Burma coming in 145th, and the ****ing Congo being 151st. Auspicious company to keep.

I accept the research, and I'll admit I did less research on this aspect of the country. I knew about the restrictive laws, the goofy laws, but based on watching videos of the political dialogue in the country, the media questioning the leadership, the media seemed to have quite a lot of freedom and seemed quite critical. I accept that the data says otherwise in this particular area.


Defending the freedom of Singapore is a laughable proposition. Like I've already said, the only argument you have here is "the authoritarian government has done a good job". That's it. Just scrap the freedom window dressing in your argument and accept the fact of the matter. You're drawn to authoritarian, orderly societies. Apparently even one where your sexual orientation is criminalized.



I'm still evolving in terms of my beliefs, but I still maintain that laws must be considered in the context of culture, history, values, and particular circumstances of said nation. If the laws represent the views of the people, I wouldn't label that an authorative regime.

I'm not sure what the people have to say in terms of the limit of speech. What I've read, people aren't allowed to talk about other religions, or at least speak ill of other religions. The latter I'm ok with.

axlsalinger
02-17-2014, 07:31 PM
Doesn't Miami also have a huge poverty and drug problem? I can think of much nicer cities with higher standards of income and quality of life index that have women that are just as hot.

Kingston?

JaysCyYoung
02-17-2014, 07:38 PM
I'm not sure what the people have to say in terms of the limit of speech. What I've read, people aren't allowed to talk about other religions, or at least speak ill of other religions. The latter I'm ok with.

That certainly seems to be the standard Muslim position doesn't it? So you fit in with your faith there.

Leafovic
02-17-2014, 07:45 PM
That certainly seems to be the standard Muslim position doesn't it? So you fit in with your faith there.

Yeah, particularly in nations that have experienced violent conflict because of religious differences. In that circumstance especially, I see it as good law.

axlsalinger
02-17-2014, 07:48 PM
Any law that sees people persecuted, simply for stating their opinion about politics or religion ... ain't a good law.

Leafovic
02-17-2014, 07:51 PM
I'm curious what you think about Singapore's "forced" savings system, mindz? (I mentioned it in some detail a few pages back) On the economic front, I think they have tons of great ideas. A real good balance in terms of government intervention and a dynamic private enterprise.

Leafovic
02-17-2014, 07:52 PM
Any law that sees people persecuted, simply for stating their opinion about politics or religion ... ain't a good law.

It is when the alternative is potential violence/civil war.

MindzEye
02-17-2014, 08:05 PM
It is when the alternative is potential violence/civil war.

Funny that the rest of the civilized world seems to manage just fine.

CH1
02-17-2014, 08:07 PM
This thread is awesome. If you just landed from another planet you'd be all: my first visit is between Kingston and Singapore.

MindzEye
02-17-2014, 08:12 PM
I'm curious what you think about Singapore's "forced" savings system, mindz? (I mentioned it in some detail a few pages back) On the economic front, I think they have tons of great ideas. A real good balance in terms of government intervention and a dynamic private enterprise.

Just a different way of skinning the same cat that we skin here. Payroll deductions to pay for retirement, health care , etc. I came across it in some of my singapore reading but I don't know enough about it's mechanics to judge it against how other nations do it.

JaysCyYoung
02-17-2014, 08:15 PM
Yeah, particularly in nations that have experienced violent conflict because of religious differences. In that circumstance especially, I see it as good law.

You're doing that thing where you project your experiences hailing from one of the most unstable, ethnically divergent regions on Earth (where separation is based on faith so much as ethnicity) and trying to apply them to significantly more stable, well-governed societies where such issues are irrelevant.

Leafovic
02-17-2014, 08:16 PM
You're doing that thing where you project your experiences hailing from one of the most unstable, ethnically divergent regions on Earth (where separation is based on faith so much as ethnicity) and trying to apply them to significantly more stable, well-governed societies where such issues are irrelevant.

I'm not suggesting that it is relevant for Canada. And might not even be neccesary for Singapore anymore.

Leafovic
02-17-2014, 08:39 PM
Just a different way of skinning the same cat that we skin here. Payroll deductions to pay for retirement, health care , etc. I came across it in some of my singapore reading but I don't know enough about it's mechanics to judge it against how other nations do it.

Well, for healthcare the govt here pools money from income, consumption taxes, lotteries, but people don't have individual healthcare accounts. The pooling is a problem because it clearly creates overutilization of services which is pretty costly.

MindzEye
02-17-2014, 08:50 PM
Meh, the over utilization in services largely has to do with the mandate to service remote communities. Canada has a **** ton of geography to deal with. Canada's cost is 4400 per person to Singapore's 2600. If you compared apples to apples and just looked at Toronto's costs, they're probably not far off of Singapore's.

One of the underlying truths of health care efficiency is that smaller nations/city states tend to shine. Hong Kong, Singapore, Japan, Israel, South Korea, Switzerland all have been pretty tough to shake out of the top 10 since they've started tracking the data. They simply don't have rural regions to service.

Leafovic
02-17-2014, 09:26 PM
Meh, the over utilization in services largely has to do with the mandate to service remote communities. Canada has a **** ton of geography to deal with. Canada's cost is 4400 per person to Singapore's 2600. If you compared apples to apples and just looked at Toronto's costs, they're probably not far off of Singapore's.


Makes sense, any data to back that up?

zeke
02-17-2014, 09:38 PM
Wasn't there for long, but singapore is....boring.

Aberdeen
02-17-2014, 09:41 PM
...felt the same

MindzEye
02-17-2014, 09:41 PM
Makes sense, any data to back that up?

http://www.cihi.ca/CIHI-ext-portal/pdf/internet/NHEX_EXEC_SUM_2013_EN

That should get you started. Requires a bit of inference, but it's clear that the most urbanized of the provinces, have the lowest health care costs per capita. When you start to think of the logistics involved in running a hospital in a rural setting and everything costs more, it makes a lot of sense.

Doctors require higher salaries to be drawn to rural markets, as do nurses. The more remote the location, the higher the required salary needed to draw the medical professionals. The higher the cost of medical supplies, sample taking, document shipping, etc, etc, etc due to shipping/courier costs. The more servicing diagnostic equipment costs as it typically requires specialists coming in from larger cities, the more medical transportation costs for patients requiring diagnostic equipment not available in their location.

The farther you get from major cities, the more everything not produced/serviced locally costs.

MindzEye
02-17-2014, 09:42 PM
Wasn't there for long, but singapore is....boring.

It's the only alpha world city where anything fun can end in a ****ing caning.

Leafovic
02-17-2014, 09:46 PM
It's the only alpha world city where anything fun can end in a ****ing caning.

And that isn't exciting??!?! Come on now.

MindzEye
02-17-2014, 10:07 PM
And that isn't exciting??!?! Come on now.

You clearly haven't thought your plan all the way through

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-GyuwhEd0sNE/T_xGudaZgLI/AAAAAAAAAgk/IXGQSIAz1SI/s1600/9strokes.jpg

"greatest city in the world"

Leafovic
02-17-2014, 10:13 PM
haha I'm obviously joking. I'm well aware that caning is quite destructive.

But being put on death row/getting a life sentence for being black sucks too. (ie USA)

MindzEye
02-17-2014, 10:27 PM
haha I'm obviously joking. I'm well aware that caning is quite destructive.

But being put on death row/getting a life sentence for being black sucks too. (ie USA)

Then don't be black. Problem solved, right?

Leafovic
02-17-2014, 10:30 PM
Then don't be black. Problem solved, right?

Sure, I see what you did there, but then NYC can't be your number 1 either. :)

Btw Singapore is not my number 1 city in the world. (but still a top one imo) I couldn't live there just on the basis that I have no interest in Asians, but certainly a place I'd visit and can see why it be quite good for many other people.

MindzEye
02-17-2014, 10:32 PM
Sure, I see what you did there, but then NYC can't be your number 1 either. :)

As much as I dislike certain aspects of the US, it's a massive disservice to compare them to Singapore on the issues I've brought up here.


Btw Singapore is not my number 1 city in the world. I couldn't live there just on the basis that I have no interest in Asians, but certainly a place I'd visit and can see why it be quite good for many other people.

Then what in the **** have we been going on about for the last 4 hours? I'd like to visit Lagos one day too, but I wouldn't spend hours arguing it's merits.

Leafovic
02-17-2014, 10:35 PM
Then what in the **** have we been going on about for the last 4 hours? I'd like to visit Lagos one day too, but I wouldn't spend hours arguing it's merits.

I still rate it near the top. I'm just saying it wouldn't make sense for me personally because I can't see myself living in a place where I'm not attracted to most of the population. If I was attracted to Asians, sure.

Leafovic
02-17-2014, 10:43 PM
I'd like to see Miami. Same reason as Mindz. The sexy latino men. :D

Pronger84
02-17-2014, 11:00 PM
Porn is illegal. Being naked in your home if someone sees you is illegal. Logging on to an unlocked wifi signal is illegal.

Basically, they spend way too much time making restrictive laws.

Just like in Canada- You can engage in prostitution behind closed doors in a dwelling home, but you even go trolling for a prostitute in public its' illegal.... Canada also spends far too much time making restrictive laws, another thing I wish they would make legal here is marijuana.

MindzEye
02-17-2014, 11:04 PM
Just like in Canada? No, not really.

Though I agree that laws of "morality" are a farce, and their illegality bares a much higher price on society than anything naturally coming from the commission of the action ever could.

Leafovic
02-17-2014, 11:04 PM
Just like in Canada- You can engage in prostitution behind closed doors in a dwelling home, but you even go trolling for a prostitute in public its' illegal.... Canada also spends far too much time making restrictive laws, another thing I wish they would make legal here is marijuana.

Yeah, those things are not comparable...

Pronger84
02-17-2014, 11:07 PM
Just like in Canada? No, not really.

Though I agree that laws of "morality" are a farce, and their illegality bares a much higher price on society than anything naturally coming from the commission of the action ever could.

Exactly, there isn't much harm that can come from prostitution and smoking weed really isn't even as bad as pounding back a few beers when it comes to intoxciation/high's, I find people do far more stupid and destructive shit when they're loaded on booze as opposed to high on weed.

TheCountofMonteCristo
02-18-2014, 01:05 AM
I understood the prostitution law has changed and it is no longer illegal in any way shape or form.

TheCountofMonteCristo
02-18-2014, 01:06 AM
Paris and New York City top my list along with San Francisco. Montreal is great too.

Habsy
02-18-2014, 12:01 PM
I don't know if anywhere has Miami Cuban hot, level of women though. Not in those numbers anyway.

Habana.

Habsy
02-18-2014, 12:03 PM
I'd like to see Miami. Same reason as Mindz. The sexy latino men. :D

You'd end up living in Wilton Manors.

blacksheep
02-18-2014, 05:07 PM
I understood the prostitution law has changed and it is no longer illegal in any way shape or form.

World's oldest profession - and a waste of money and effort to stop it. Just let them have it, and collect the business taxes from it. Who cares, anymore?
Plus, the girls, (and guys, I suppose...) would be cleaner because they wouldn't have to hide.

MindzEye
02-18-2014, 05:37 PM
Victimless crimes (drugs, prostitution, etc) shouldn't be a matter for the courts. If you're that obsessed with it as a societal ill, it should be ticketable, like speeding, jay walking, etc.

Bleedsblue&white
02-18-2014, 06:26 PM
People point to the evil side of the sex trade whenever legalizing it is mentioned; bad people will always be around, you'd get rid of at least some of it if the system was legalized and policed.

worm
02-18-2014, 07:01 PM
Victimless crimes (drugs, prostitution, etc) shouldn't be a matter for the courts. If you're that obsessed with it as a societal ill, it should be ticketable, like speeding, jay walking, etc.

i disagree...but maybe i watch too many movies

MindzEye
02-18-2014, 08:23 PM
i disagree...but maybe i watch too many movies

The vast, vast majority of societal cost shouldered by society by those two, are in forcing them to the fringes of society by criminalizing them. Bring prostitution into the legal spectrum and now you can regulate if for the safety of the women involved, as well as the public health of the patrons (plus those non professionals the patrons **** at home, or later). You also force the pimp/manager to adhere to labour practices that are law. On top of removing some of the stigma that sex workers have to live with and making it more likely for sex workers to be in regular contact with health and mental health professionals.

As for drugs, removing it from the grips of organized crime in the single biggest positive, low hanging fruit benefit available right now. Sale of illicit drugs is the single biggest funding arm for their other activities (trafficking guns, other black market merchandise, as well as smuggled goods....cigarettes, electronics, etc). Remove the massive amount of funds that drug sales generate and you slash the hell out of the benefits involved in being a career criminal. For most criminals, it's economic. It's done to pay the bills. You do it because it's more attractive to wait for your cell phone to ring to flip a few pounds of weed, and it is to work a job you hate with a boss you want to stab in the throat. Remove the financial incentive and you remove it as a "career" choice for criminals.

JohnnyHolmes
02-19-2014, 12:22 AM
The vast, vast majority of societal cost shouldered by society by those two, are in forcing them to the fringes of society by criminalizing them. Bring prostitution into the legal spectrum and now you can regulate if for the safety of the women involved, as well as the public health of the patrons (plus those non professionals the patrons **** at home, or later). You also force the pimp/manager to adhere to labour practices that are law. On top of removing some of the stigma that sex workers have to live with and making it more likely for sex workers to be in regular contact with health and mental health professionals.

As for drugs, removing it from the grips of organized crime in the single biggest positive, low hanging fruit benefit available right now. Sale of illicit drugs is the single biggest funding arm for their other activities (trafficking guns, other black market merchandise, as well as smuggled goods....cigarettes, electronics, etc). Remove the massive amount of funds that drug sales generate and you slash the hell out of the benefits involved in being a career criminal. For most criminals, it's economic. It's done to pay the bills. You do it because it's more attractive to wait for your cell phone to ring to flip a few pounds of weed, and it is to work a job you hate with a boss you want to stab in the throat. Remove the financial incentive and you remove it as a "career" choice for criminals.

Yeah but then everyone will do drugs!

Chris Rock did a good bit about drugs in one of his stand up specials.

The Government keeps drugs illegal because they hate competition. They want you on THEIR drugs. Look at how people are dropping from oxy, etc. Legally prescribed drugs.

Of course you are right. Remove the financial incentive and what is there? As far as I know, bootlegging isn't a real problem anymore. Practically every illegal enterprise exists to make money. Lots of it. From running cigarettes across the St Lawrence to trying to get coke into Miami.

The people that do drugs are doing drugs regardless of the law. That won't ever change. More people may try drugs if they are legal, but it would probably have the same impact as kids that are brought up respecting liquor and drinking wine with meals from age 12 or whatever.

Part of the appeal of drugs is that they are forbidden. I was pretty damn curious to find out what all the fuss over weed was about. When I was 14, the opportunity arose, and I found out. Spectacularly underwhelming, but fun.

I grew up in the height of the Nancy Reagan "just say no" BS. We had the OPP come into our classrooms and try to scare us away from drugs. They always tell you the worst case scenario, then one day you find out it was all a big lie.

I never got offered drugs for free until I got hooked, and then had the dealer that wasn't really my friend start charging me, like they said.

I kind of wish I had...would have saved a few bucks.

voyager
02-19-2014, 08:14 AM
Drugs should be decriminalized, however that doesn't mean all drugs should be freely available. There is absolutely no benefit to society for drugs like crystal meth, crack etc. these substances need to remain tightly controlled regardless of their eventual legal status.

However with that being said, drugs need to stop being viewed as the primary problem, rather in most instances they're a symptom greater societal issues.

Deckie007
02-19-2014, 09:07 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh2sWSVRrmo

Seriously though, the prohibition of substances causes more problems than the substances themselves. I don't see decriminalizing hard drugs happening anytime soon, it's political suicide, imo.

leafman101
02-19-2014, 10:00 AM
Drugs should be decriminalized, however that doesn't mean all drugs should be freely available. There is absolutely no benefit to society for drugs like crystal meth, crack etc. these substances need to remain tightly controlled regardless of their eventual legal status.

However with that being said, drugs need to stop being viewed as the primary problem, rather in most instances they're a symptom greater societal issues.

Drugs are freely available though. No one that wants to do drugs has problems finding them.

At least if they are legal you can regulate the sale of them instead of just sweeping it under the rug and pretending its not going on. And creating crime and criminals and then spending tons of money to create special law enforcement units just to stop it...which doesn't even stop people from using it. Its expensive and fruitless method of dealing with the issue IMO.

And even more importantly it would be much easier to get the people that need help, help.

Matrim
02-19-2014, 10:57 AM
Everything that I feel about this subject has pretty much already been said. I've been working at a transitional house for men with addiction issues since September, interned at the same place for 4 months last January to April, so nearly a year in this world. If every drug was legalized and controlled by the government there will still be places for me to work in that field. People have abused and over used drugs of all kinds for as long there have been drugs and it's not going to stop anytime soon. The main reasons the guys are struggling with addiction are because of societal issues, problems with parents, trauma from being sexually abused, most don't have any support or guidance from school or there family and quickly and easily find friendship and a sense of togetherness that they haven't found anywhere else with other people that are going through the same thing when using. In my short time interacting with the so called "scum of the earth" as some in society like to claim among other slangs, I've found that these men are some of the kindest people around, they will go out of there way to help anyone. A lot of them are very smart and have simply never been given the chance. It's tough to change a mindset though when all you've known is using and that lifestyle, it's tough to come back without a lot of support once treatment is finished.

Anyway, it's clear legalizing any drug won't change anything. Just look at alcohol and tobacco as both are some of the most harmful drugs around but are fully legal and being abused.

zeke
02-19-2014, 11:05 AM
I'd be interested to see if the decriminalization of illicit drugs would have any effect on the usage of pharmaceuticals.

MindzEye
02-19-2014, 12:11 PM
Drugs should be decriminalized, however that doesn't mean all drugs should be freely available. There is absolutely no benefit to society for drugs like crystal meth, crack etc. these substances need to remain tightly controlled regardless of their eventual legal status.

However with that being said, drugs need to stop being viewed as the primary problem, rather in most instances they're a symptom greater societal issues.

Every study I've come across (and there's a fairly large number of them) shows massive decreases in use of the harder drugs (heroin in particular has been studied to death) when users have ready access to public health services and professionals. Portugal has shown even greater declines when the access to those health services and professionals are forced upon users.

A heroin/crack/whatever user should be able to go to a clinic, visit a public health nurse & addictions councilor, get his fix in a safe environment. You'd see a huge drop in usage as addictions professionals would be able to guide a large chunk of users off of their substance of "choice" and into social programs designed to help them rebuild their lives. You would almost entirely eliminate the violent and property crimes committed by users trying to make money to score their fix, because it would become unnecessary for them to need money to get their fix.

It would be a similar, but broader effect imo, to that seen with the Vancouver safe injection sites. It could also be funded, every single ****ing dollar, off the proceeds of legal marijuana sales.

Leafovic
02-19-2014, 12:21 PM
Portugal has shown even greater declines when the access to those health services and professionals are forced upon users.

You authoratative prick. :)

MindzEye
02-19-2014, 12:39 PM
The canings are next

voyager
02-19-2014, 02:27 PM
Every study I've come across (and there's a fairly large number of them) shows massive decreases in use of the harder drugs (heroin in particular has been studied to death) when users have ready access to public health services and professionals. Portugal has shown even greater declines when the access to those health services and professionals are forced upon users.

A heroin/crack/whatever user should be able to go to a clinic, visit a public health nurse & addictions councilor, get his fix in a safe environment. You'd see a huge drop in usage as addictions professionals would be able to guide a large chunk of users off of their substance of "choice" and into social programs designed to help them rebuild their lives. You would almost entirely eliminate the violent and property crimes committed by users trying to make money to score their fix, because it would become unnecessary for them to need money to get their fix.

It would be a similar, but broader effect imo, to that seen with the Vancouver safe injection sites. It could also be funded, every single ****ing dollar, off the proceeds of legal marijuana sales.

By free available I mean like an LCBO set up for safer drugs. With controlled settings available for the dangerous ones. Of course that leads to a scenario where there would still be street level sales.

The possession of drugs for personal use should be legal. Production and distribution should should not be.

MindzEye
02-19-2014, 02:49 PM
By free available I mean like an LCBO set up for safer drugs. With controlled settings available for the dangerous ones. Of course that leads to a scenario where there would still be street level sales.

The possession of drugs for personal use should be legal. Production and distribution should should not be.

I think the street level sales market crashes massively once the profit motive is removed for dealers. Dealers only deal because the markup is massive due to the risk involved. How much is a user going to pay for a product that they can get for free, from a safe source?

I mean, there will be some, but the profit motive for the dealer evaporates.

voyager
02-19-2014, 03:01 PM
It wouldn't be a magic bullet but if we implemented an approach like this one, within a decade or so the amount of hard core drug users would probably be a fraction of what they are now.

MindzEye
02-19-2014, 03:11 PM
It wouldn't be a magic bullet but if we implemented an approach like this one, within a decade or so the amount of hard core drug users would probably be a fraction of what they are now.

Portugal cut theirs in half, within a decade. Once it becomes ingrained in the culture of the people, I think you'll see it go lower still.

Matrim
02-20-2014, 11:39 PM
Every study I've come across (and there's a fairly large number of them) shows massive decreases in use of the harder drugs (heroin in particular has been studied to death) when users have ready access to public health services and professionals. Portugal has shown even greater declines when the access to those health services and professionals are forced upon users.

A heroin/crack/whatever user should be able to go to a clinic, visit a public health nurse & addictions councilor, get his fix in a safe environment. You'd see a huge drop in usage as addictions professionals would be able to guide a large chunk of users off of their substance of "choice" and into social programs designed to help them rebuild their lives. You would almost entirely eliminate the violent and property crimes committed by users trying to make money to score their fix, because it would become unnecessary for them to need money to get their fix.

It would be a similar, but broader effect imo, to that seen with the Vancouver safe injection sites. It could also be funded, every single ****ing dollar, off the proceeds of legal marijuana sales.

Agreed 100%. Though I doubt we something like this for a long time. Not until it makes sense politically for the government in charge. The majority of the population won't see the idea of just giving people there fix as a solution, not sure when that will change but it doesn't seem likely to happen anytime soon.

mbow30
02-21-2014, 12:27 AM
you guys are missing the point. you lack the ability to truly appreciate the world's beauty -- and most importantly, the beauty contained in montreal. the beautiful girls; the city's vibrancy; the language; the culture. it is indescribable.

here are some pictures i recently took while visiting the city.

http://www.caccn.ca/en/images/montreal.jpg

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT5rHFx_Sb5z38KjrMEHE52NvXwsIZYY KVYvALEFJEVpLRTgAcSWg

http://www.chrishenschel.com/wp-content/uploads/australia_bestjobs-31.jpg

http://www.ameriquefrancaise.org/media-2451/boul_st_laurent_bouchon.jpg

http://montreal-guidetouristique.com/images/image70-Montreal-Ouest-3EN.jpg

http://www.velomontreal.com/cartes/montreal/ville_st-laurent.jpg

http://0.tqn.com/d/gocanada/1/0/n/5/-/-/Old_montreal_Royal_Insurance.jpg

http://www.freemontrealtours.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/blogHomepage.jpg

vive la resistance!

Metalleaf
02-21-2014, 12:29 AM
Sweet! Time Travel!