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trujaysfan
03-25-2014, 10:40 PM
Since it is likely we miss the playoffs this year I figured i would continue the conversation that was being had in the GDT tonight.

My best guess is that he bring in Wayne Gretzky as president of the Toronto Maple Leafs and lets him build a staff that fits his vision.

Nonis and Randy as well as a couple others in the Front Office would be leaving under my guess.

MindzEye
03-25-2014, 10:43 PM
I expect him to bring Gretzky at the least. Nonis will send Randy down the river, but will be given another chance with another coach. Unless Timmy has someone specifically in mind for GM who is available. Then Nonis is ****ed.

Leafyblue
03-25-2014, 10:49 PM
Do you really think Gretzky wants anything to do with the Leafs? The last interview I heard with him, he said he was happy being away from hockey.

trujaysfan
03-25-2014, 10:49 PM
I think he bring in a President who is marketable (aka gretz) and then to do the org review together. I don't see him making many changes on his own unless they are glaring

Montana
03-25-2014, 10:53 PM
#rehireBurke

MapleLeafBlueJayBoy
03-25-2014, 10:56 PM
#rehireBurke

No

This is essentially his team now.

Volcanologist
03-25-2014, 11:01 PM
I don't think Nonis will get fired yet, but yeah Carlyle looks like a dead man walking right now.

Nonis seems the pliable type. He will take orders, unlike Burke. And Leiweke will give them, because he wants what Burke wanted, to be The Guy That Broke The Leafs Drought. He knows that whoever does do that will be immortalized forever. I would not be shocked at all if some shit happens this offseason that nobody expected. Look at the Raps and especially TFC, I did not see that coming.

trujaysfan
03-25-2014, 11:07 PM
I don't think Nonis will get fired yet, but yeah Carlyle looks like a dead man walking right now.

Nonis seems the pliable type. He will take orders, unlike Burke. And Leiweke will give them, because he wants what Burke wanted, to be The Guy That Broke The Leafs Drought. He knows that whoever does do that will be immortalized forever. I would not be shocked at all if some shit happens this offseason that nobody expected. Look at the Raps and especially TFC, I did not see that coming.

Really? TL had been spouting off about big name DP's since he showed up. I guess if you are not paying attention to certain things associated with TFC you may not have heard about all of it but names were leaked early when it came to the TFC player search

Leafin'
03-25-2014, 11:09 PM
Roster wise, who is retained going forward?

Kessel, Bozak, JVR, Phaneuf, Bernier.

The rest can be moved. We need more 2-way forwards. We need to get better defensively. Not sure how we can accomplish this, but too many one-sided players on this team right now.

Leafin'
03-25-2014, 11:11 PM
Really? TL had been spouting off about big name DP's since he showed up. I guess if you are not paying attention to certain things associated with TFC you may not have heard about all of it but names were leaked early when it came to the TFC player search

Leiweke has been very hands-off with regards to the Leafs. We looked pretty much on our way to another playoff series, but im guessing that might change in the coming month or so.

If we do miss the playoffs, i want to see the press conference with Leiweke.

ForeverTML
03-25-2014, 11:13 PM
We need some people that can actually play their damn roles and care. Leave the first line alone, Reilly and Bernie. The rest can be trade or buyout bait or whatever.

MindzEye
03-25-2014, 11:16 PM
Do you really think Gretzky wants anything to do with the Leafs? The last interview I heard with him, he said he was happy being away from hockey.

Tim L will get him on board.

and yes I think that Gretzky wants something to do with the Leafs, he loves this franchise and always has. Gordie was his favourite player growing up but he always dreamt of being a Leaf. Still can.

Volcanologist
03-25-2014, 11:16 PM
Really? TL had been spouting off about big name DP's since he showed up. I guess if you are not paying attention to certain things associated with TFC you may not have heard about all of it but names were leaked early when it came to the TFC player search

No I saw it coming after he got here, I just mean the turnaround those two teams have had since.

ForeverTML
03-25-2014, 11:19 PM
Leave it to ME for the optimism. I'll take a change similar to the raps and TFC anyday.

And I am not sure why we need a "team" of management - i.e. Loiselle, Fletch, Nonis, Poulin...etc. Why? Do other teams have this bloated structure?

MapleLeafBlueJayBoy
03-25-2014, 11:22 PM
ME is a profit.

MindzEye
03-25-2014, 11:23 PM
We need some people that can actually play their damn roles and care. Leave the first line alone, Reilly and Bernie. The rest can be trade or buyout bait or whatever.

Things that shouldn't be touched unless it's for a clear upgrade:

JVR - Bozak - Kessel
Lupul - Kadri - XXXXXX
Kulemin - Bolland - XXXXX
XXXXX - XXXXX - XXXXXX

XXXXXX - Phaneuf
Gardiner - Gunnarsson
Rielly - Gleason

Bernier
XXXXX

Add players with good size/skill combinations to the 2nd & 3rd line wing situations. Bring back Kulemin & Bolland if it makes financial sense, if not replace them with similar players. Put a fast 4th line with good size together that isn't afraid/inept to play with the puck, get a legit top pairing defender to play with Phaneuf. I love Gunnar and think he's under rated, but I'd like to see someone with Phaneuf that can play the same type of high end 2 way game that Phaneuf can. Bring in a new coach. I'm pretty convinced that a new coach would reverse a lot of this ridiculous trend of being hilariously out shot every night. We have enough talent in house to win games that we're out shot in, but it's something that we've clearly shown that we need near ideal conditions (health and level of form our top players are in) for it to be successful. It's turned us into an extremely streak clubs. We're incapable of grinding out wins. We either win with speed and skill (including high end goaltending), or we lose. A detailed, structured, but not constrictive system will get a lot more our of the horses we have than we're seeing this season.

Leafin'
03-25-2014, 11:35 PM
Who would that top pairing defender be? And what would be trading to get him?

That team you posted is no different than what we have right now. The forwards are just as much to do with us getting outshot as the defence. The top-6 has proven to be atrocious defensively this season. The defence you have is unchanged from this year.

This freefall from the playoffs comes as a bit of a surprise considering where we've been in the standings all season, but not as a surprise to the way we;ve played all season. We haven't played great hockey this year. Consistently relying on our goaltending to save our bacon.

MindzEye
03-25-2014, 11:37 PM
Leave it to ME for the optimism.

There's a lot of reasons to be optimistic. Don't let the trolls and naysayers cloud the facts

1) We're really, really young

2) We're quite good, though clearly flawed

3) The major flaw (possession) is extremely fixable

4) We have high end elite talent scattered all over the rink. On the wing, Kessel & JVR are about as lethal a wing combo as there is in the league. Up the middle Kadri needs a weight room to become an elite centre imo, but the talent is clearly there. On the blueline our Captain is a top tier defender and the Gardiner/Rielly combo is pretty drool worthy. Gardiner I think will always have us pulling our hair out at times, but he's ****ing electric when he's pushing the puck. Rielly has a much better rounded skill set and is already a solid 2 way defender and not just a pure puck mover. The kid is also a weight room junkie, his work ethic will max out every scrap of impressive natural talent he has.

5) We have a deep prospect pipeline, that though it lacks impact talent, should start turning out quality #4-12 forwards and #3-6 defenders as soon as this upcoming season. That doesn't sound extremely profound, but it's something that we've never really done well as an organization. We've not done well in a continuous flow of quality depth for the parent club, that keeps us away from having to overpay very mediocre veterans because they bring some sort of intangible that we lack. This group of kids coming up over the next 2 seasons (Holland, Percy, Leivo, Ashton,D'Amigo, Broll, Granberg) bring a lot of the things I think we're lacking as a group right now. They all seem to be high IQ players who play the proverbial "200 foot game" that we don't right now. They should compliment our current group well and make cap management a lot easier for a handful of important seasons (Kessel's prime...AKA "The Kessel Run")
I'll take a change similar to the raps and TFC anyday.


And I am not sure why we need a "team" of management - i.e. Loiselle, Fletch, Nonis, Poulin...etc. Why? Do other teams have this bloated structure?

Yeah. In Detroit for example, at one point they had Ken Holland, Steve Yzerman, Delvechio, Jim Nill.

Pronger84
03-25-2014, 11:38 PM
Is there any way we can pry J-Bow out of St Louis?

MyNameIsJonas
03-25-2014, 11:46 PM
Is there any way we can pry J-Bow out of St Louis?

No, but you can go back in time and pry him out of Calgary.

MindzEye
03-25-2014, 11:48 PM
Who would that top pairing defender be?

My personal choice would be Mark Giordano. Though Wideman, Edler, Ehrhoff, Greene, Gilbert, Bieksa, Myers, Hamhuis should all have their tires kicked.



And what would be trading to get him?

Ideally, Franson and stuff.



That team you posted is no different than what we have right now.

Because I don't think that huge changes are necessary for us to take a big step forward.


The forwards are just as much to do with us getting outshot as the defence. The top-6 has proven to be atrocious defensively this season. The defence you have is unchanged from this year.

A big part of our problem defensively imo is how deep Randy has the winger collapsing to help the defenders cover their man. You simply don't see other teams sending their wingers that deep around the net often and it creates this situation in the defensive zone where as soon as a winger with the puck down low feels pressure there is an open bank pass....always, always wide open....to a defender standing at the point with the winger 25 feet away. In fact, I'd go as far to say that this is the single strategic lapse in our game that continually leads to the excessive amount of zone time allowed and by extension, the shot differential. When you look at the individual cogs involved, they've all played much better possession hockey in the past.



This freefall from the playoffs comes as a bit of a surprise considering where we've been in the standings all season, but not as a surprise to the way we;ve played all season. We haven't played great hockey this year. Consistently relying on our goaltending to save our bacon.

We haven't played great structured hockey this season, and our high end talent (not just our goaltending) has bailed us out enough that we're a bubble team. All of these players have played in successfully structured systems before, did they forget how to play in a system? We know from evidence that they're not incapable of it. The simplest fix is to change the system. The team we played tonight, was in a free fall themselves before the perfect coach for that team fell into their lap and changed shit almost overnight. They were similar to us in a lot of ways, they just needed a structure that suited their talents. In their case, it's a bunch of 2nd line talents who play strong 2 way hockey. A hitchcock system was perfect for them. We need a similar counter punching system, but the screws tightened on the defensive zone coverage and PK play. If we're even average at those (which doesn't take tearing this group down and starting over...again, all of these guys have had much better possession numbers before Randy), this team gets very dangerous in a hurry.

Leafin'
03-25-2014, 11:56 PM
So to follow the Blues model, we need to acquire a Bouwmeester and Hitchcock to change our fortunes.

Only concern that i have, is that their forwards play more 2 way end to end hockey. We do not have any players in our top-6 that are good defensively.

Not going to lie, i've soured a bit on Lupul and Kadri. I do agree both are fantastic hockey players offensively, but on the defensive side they are brutal. Lupul being injury prone is also a concern.

I held out hope for Clarkson, but man he makes it hard to like him. What a disaster signing. Could be the undoing of Nonis.

Pronger84
03-25-2014, 11:59 PM
[QUOTE=MindzEye;2304005]My personal choice would be Mark Giordano. Though Wideman, Edler, Ehrhoff, Greene, Gilbert, Bieksa, Myers, Hamhuis should all have their tires kicked.




Ideally, Franson and stuff.


.

Because I don't think that huge changes are necessary for us to take a big step forward.



A big part of our problem defensively imo is how deep Randy has the winger collapsing to help the defenders cover their man. You simply don't see other teams sending their wingers that deep around the net often and it creates this situation in the defensive zone where as soon as a winger with the puck down low feels pressure there is an open bank pass....always, always wide open....to a defender standing at the point with the winger 25 feet away. In fact, I'd go as far to say that this is the single strategic lapse in our game that continually leads to the excessive amount of zone time allowed and by extension, the shot differential. When you look at the individual cogs involved, they've all played much better possession hockey in the past.

The other thing I've noticed, and I'm not sure if this is Carlyle telling the players this or them doing this on their own, but the wingers skating up to the blueline and the blueline attempting a stretch pass, which often gets fumbled or flat out intercepted and back into our end it goes for lengthy stretches. What I would like to see is the wingers come back closer to the defence and shorter passes being used between the wingers/defence and then have the wingers skate it up ice, that I feel would be much more ideal then what's happening currently.

MapleLeafBlueJayBoy
03-26-2014, 12:01 AM
Gunnerson is disposable and can be upgraded.

Pronger84
03-26-2014, 12:02 AM
Gunnerson is disposable and can be upgraded.

Anyone can be disposed of, but who do you have in mind to come in and replace him effectively?

worm
03-26-2014, 12:05 AM
ME is a profit.

good pun

Metalleaf
03-26-2014, 12:12 AM
If we hire a new coach, I'd prefer someone who can isn't afraid to lean on young guys. Not sure who is available who has a track record like that. Laviolette and Crawford come to mind, but I'm not sure of others.

worm
03-26-2014, 12:28 AM
If we hire a new coach, I'd prefer someone who can isn't afraid to lean on young guys. Not sure who is available who has a track record like that. Laviolette and Crawford come to mind, but I'm not sure of others.

what old guys has randy been leaning on?

KingTucker
03-26-2014, 12:33 AM
Answering the OP:

Carlyle is gone.
Nonis is on notice.
I wouldn't be surprised to see a buyout of some kind.
I don't believe that idjit Dreger that Kadri or Gardiner are gone, not after Nonis held onto them at the deadline and clearly sees their worth.
Oh, and read in some MSM outlet (or was it Twitter?) that JVR told his brother (A "D") that the Leafs have too many good young defenders for him to try coming here.

MindzEye
03-26-2014, 12:43 AM
So to follow the Blues model, we need to acquire a Bouwmeester and Hitchcock to change our fortunes.

Only concern that i have, is that their forwards play more 2 way end to end hockey. We do not have any players in our top-6 that are good defensively.

We don't need to play that style to be successful. We can rely on out gunning most teams on most nights, especially as Gardiner and Rielly mature. We just need to be good defensively, not great. The Blues don't have that luxury. They have to win in the trenches, so to speak. They've become fantastic at it, but that's what they have to do. They're not going to beat an elite skill team in a track meet.


Not going to lie, i've soured a bit on Lupul and Kadri. I do agree both are fantastic hockey players offensively, but on the defensive side they are brutal. Lupul being injury prone is also a concern.

Need to get them a winger. When Kulemin played good 2 way hockey, that line looked a lot better. They need someone like Kulemin, but with a set of hands.


I held out hope for Clarkson, but man he makes it hard to like him. What a disaster signing. Could be the undoing of Nonis.

Should be bought out this summer. The math isn't even that bad on it. Though I imagine that there's no chance Nonis does this and even a Nonis replacement would want to get a look at him under another coach before pulling the pin.

MindzEye
03-26-2014, 12:45 AM
what old guys has randy been leaning on?

Pretty sure Jay McClement lead the forwards in ice time tonight.

blacksheep
03-26-2014, 01:17 AM
Gunnerson is disposable and can be upgraded.

Agreed, but Franson leads in the "disposable" dept. Franson should be upgraded first, then possibly Gunnarson.

trujaysfan
03-26-2014, 01:25 AM
have not read the entire article yet but was pointed out to me.

TL out to eradicate MLSE culture of losing: http://www.torontosun.com/2014/03/24/leiweke-out-to-eradicate-mlses-culture-of-losing

blacksheep
03-26-2014, 01:33 AM
have not read the entire article yet but was pointed out to me.

TL out to eradicate MLSE culture of losing: http://www.torontosun.com/2014/03/24/leiweke-out-to-eradicate-mlses-culture-of-losing

Sounds good, but it always sounds good... then nothing ever changes.
Show me. Then I'll believe it.

trujaysfan
03-26-2014, 01:35 AM
Sounds good, but it always sounds good... then nothing ever changes.
Show me. Then I'll believe it.

Exhibit 1 TFC... but that was always going to be the easiest to change

ForeverTML
03-26-2014, 09:26 AM
“I wouldn’t under-estimate this team,” warned Leiweke on Monday afternoon. “I know a lot of people are shooting at us now. I know a lot of people are talking about ‘The Great Collapse’ already. I find a lot of humour in what I’m hearing.

“We just got knocked down. But here’s the bet: I think we get ourselves up here and finish the year in a flurry. Fans should take a deep breath and not count us out. Last time I checked, it’s still March and teams are still chasing us. Losing five is not the greatest at this time of year, but giving up on the team is not the way you change the culture.

“This is not some guy just spouting off in the front office. I believe in this team


Laugh it up...

Leafyblue
03-26-2014, 09:32 AM
That's actually a great response.

MindzEye
03-26-2014, 09:35 AM
Sounds good, but it always sounds good... then nothing ever changes.
Show me. Then I'll believe it.

TFC looks like a juggernaut, and the Toronto Raptors are 3rd in the Eastern Conference.

http://cmster.com/media/bc8PmpMWqMVUvI1yQnxjqXi5MlQhKVbVSNYeMFczhrtuvowK57 j6tQFD3DCAZnMU.jpg

GEEMAN
03-26-2014, 09:40 AM
So to follow the Blues model, we need to acquire a Bouwmeester and Hitchcock to change our fortunes.

Only concern that i have, is that their forwards play more 2 way end to end hockey. We do not have any players in our top-6 that are good defensively.

Not going to lie, i've soured a bit on Lupul and Kadri. I do agree both are fantastic hockey players offensively, but on the defensive side they are brutal. Lupul being injury prone is also a concern.

I held out hope for Clarkson, but man he makes it hard to like him. What a disaster signing. Could be the undoing of Nonis.

Well said you dont have top 6 or for that matter a team that plays well defensively , thats your make up and you cant flip a switch and just fix it .

The Blues play this way cause they dont have a choice , they dont have Crosby and Ovie upfront to give them some balance , so they play shutdown in your face grind it out hockey and it works.

Doubt they can win a cup without a star upfront but see what happens , thats their identity , but seriously can you expect to win expecting your goalie to stand on his head spitting out nickels every night and getting outworked and outshout , and the territorial play often in your end of the rink .

Killer93
03-26-2014, 10:34 AM
After what I have seen him do for TFC and Raps, I am definitely confident with this guy if he wants to lead the charge for the Leafs

Metalleaf
03-26-2014, 10:50 AM
http://squeezetheorange.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/1297408963484_ORIGINAL.jpg

Metalleaf
03-26-2014, 10:50 AM
http://www.thestar.com/content/dam/thestar/sports/leafs/2013/05/21/maple_leafs_will_get_tim_leiwekes_attention_soon_a s_mlse_continues_tidal_wave_of_change_cox/tim_leiweke.jpg.size.xxlarge.promo.jpg

MindzEye
03-26-2014, 10:55 AM
After what I have seen him do for TFC and Raps, I am definitely confident with this guy if he wants to lead the charge for the Leafs

Tim doesn't need to know hockey necessarily. What he knows is how to hire executives who know their business and have verifiable track records of success. He knows how to mold public perception to suit the narrative he wants to spin, he knows how to sell. People like Timmy L win, they win at whatever they do. If he worked for NASA, they'd win at lobbying congress for more funding and would land on Mars sooner, if he worked for Apple they'd reach other demographics with their toys and sell more of them, if he worked for the Sierra Club, less rain forest around the world would be cut down on a daily basis.

Luckily, none of that shit is important to him right now, he works for us. This guy is about winning.

leafman101
03-26-2014, 11:13 AM
I heard a good story about the Kovy/LA situation and TL.

Apparently he really wanted him and pushed Lombardi really hard, but Lombardi held firm and convinced him in the end. He likes to push his guys but he'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

Still not totally convinced Nonis is his guy though.

GEEMAN
03-26-2014, 01:00 PM
After what I have seen him do for TFC and Raps, I am definitely confident with this guy if he wants to lead the charge for the Leafs

Different situation , he blew his brains out spending cause he could on these transfer players within the league framework . He cant spend his way to success with the Leafs with the cap in place, totally different structure .

MindzEye
03-26-2014, 01:08 PM
Different situation , he blew his brains out spending cause he could on these transfer players within the league framework . He cant spend his way to success with the Leafs with the cap in place, totally different structure .

How about the Raptors? Conventional wisdom would have been to tear the whole ****ing thing down and tank. Instead he brought in a high end GM with a track record of building deep, quality, competitive teams without superstars around, and instead of pressuring him to blow it up and start over, let MU tweak as he felt necessary.

3rd best team in the eastern conference, top 10 in the NBA after being a laughing stock through years of the rebuilding treadmill.

Sure seems like the identical approach we need here. A high quality GM with a track record of building good teams to come in, and without tossing the baby out with the bath water, shed back contracts and make the right adds.

Leafin'
03-26-2014, 01:09 PM
Different situation , he blew his brains out spending cause he could on these transfer players within the league framework . He cant spend his way to success with the Leafs with the cap in place, totally different structure .

NOt an entirely different situation. MLS has a cap. He was instrumental in putting together a team of executives that was able to bring these players over. It could have a similar effect as Leiweke bringing in a group of executives to bring the next UFA star to the Leafs. Say we hire Gretzky, and in another couple years when Stamkos is UFA, we ened up signing him. Stamkos goes on to say "I signed here because Gretzky and Leiweke knocked on my door last night and made an offer i couldn't refuse".

Can't underestimate Leiweke, the dude has delivered on what he has said.

trujaysfan
03-26-2014, 01:14 PM
Leiweke is the type of guy who would actually hire a brinks truck and drive it to a guys house if he thought it would help land the player. He will bring in management that will help facilitate the additions of players through management skill or prestige.

Also he isn't afraid of doing something that is unpopular i.e. Tim Bez who was not one of the popular targets but fit exactly what he wanted.

JackBurton
03-26-2014, 06:01 PM
Burke got fired. Why should I feel good about this situation?

JackBurton
03-26-2014, 06:02 PM
So to follow the Blues model, we need to acquire a Bouwmeester and Hitchcock to change our fortunes.

Only concern that i have, is that their forwards play more 2 way end to end hockey. We do not have any players in our top-6 that are good defensively.

Not going to lie, i've soured a bit on Lupul and Kadri. I do agree both are fantastic hockey players offensively, but on the defensive side they are brutal. Lupul being injury prone is also a concern.

I held out hope for Clarkson, but man he makes it hard to like him. What a disaster signing. Could be the undoing of Nonis.

The last good defensive coach the Leafs had was Pat Burns. I think it's time to give a defensive coach a try.

rated
03-26-2014, 06:16 PM
The last good defensive coach the Leafs had was Pat Burns. I think it's time to give a defensive coach a try.

And what defensive coach is out there for the Leafs ?

JackBurton
03-26-2014, 06:19 PM
And what defensive coach is out there for the Leafs ?

Guy Boucher.

LeafGm
03-26-2014, 06:31 PM
Guy Boucher.
Why? Once the rest of the NHL figured out his gutless "don't you dare go over the opposition's blue line" strategy, his team did brutal the rest of the way. I'm all for hiring a coach that knows how to play defense, but let's get a guy who actually has his teams play hockey too.

GEEMAN
03-26-2014, 07:15 PM
How about the Raptors? Conventional wisdom would have been to tear the whole ****ing thing down and tank. Instead he brought in a high end GM with a track record of building deep, quality, competitive teams without superstars around, and instead of pressuring him to blow it up and start over, let MU tweak as he felt necessary.

3rd best team in the eastern conference, top 10 in the NBA after being a laughing stock through years of the rebuilding treadmill.

Sure seems like the identical approach we need here. A high quality GM with a track record of building good teams to come in, and without tossing the baby out with the bath water, shed back contracts and make the right adds.

First of all the Raps play in a horrendous conference where the Louisville Cardinals have a shot at a playoff spot, the west is night and day a difference conference . Tim hired the right GM in Majuri but he had a solid start in 3 solid kids to work within a starting 5 . He moved the wrong fits that " Collarhead Dickhead " had and doesnt look like the patch and bandaid show of BC .

But its much easier guiding a group where 8-9 players play every night and taking a 27 win team to a 40+ win team in basket ball , the optics are different .

Majuri was close to blowing it up when he mentioned " we wont be in nowhere land " , out of nowhere they starting winning and gelling after the Gay deal and all of us are shocked at what happened .

These arent your Leafs my friend , much tougher competition in the division .

GEEMAN
03-26-2014, 07:30 PM
The last good defensive coach the Leafs had was Pat Burns. I think it's time to give a defensive coach a try.

What is a defensive coach going to do when you dont have the roster to play that style ? You need an identity first then build your roster .

rated
03-26-2014, 07:31 PM
Why? Once the rest of the NHL figured out his gutless "don't you dare go over the opposition's blue line" strategy, his team did brutal the rest of the way. I'm all for hiring a coach that knows how to play defense, but let's get a guy who actually has his teams play hockey too.

This. Still awaiting a legit replacement for Caryle.

MindzEye
03-26-2014, 07:36 PM
First of all the Raps play in a horrendous conference where the Louisville Cardinals have a shot at a playoff spot, the west is night and day a difference conference .

So night & day that the Raptors are 15-14 against them overall. 13-9 since the Rudy Gay trade.

The Raps are a good club in any conference, any division.


Tim hired the right GM in Majuri but he had a solid start in 3 solid kids to work within a starting 5 . He moved the wrong fits that " Collarhead Dickhead " had and doesnt look like the patch and bandaid show of BC .

I fail to see what you're arguing about here. TL, despite being a basketball guy, didn't follow the conventional wisdom and bring someone in with the expressed expectation of blowing it up and tanking in a draft that many clubs were drooling about. There were tons of articles written about why the Raptors should tank, etc and a lot of rumours that we were considering tanking, etc. TL hired the right guy and got the **** out of the way, exactly what you want a senior executive to do.




Majuri was close to blowing it up when he mentioned " we wont be in nowhere land " , out of nowhere they starting winning and gelling after the Gay deal and all of us are shocked at what happened .

Yep. TL hired the right guy, who took the right approach to what was considered a talented, but flawed group previously.


These arent your Leafs my friend , much tougher competition in the division .

The level of competition hasn't mattered to the Raptors. Atlantic isn't that tough anyway. Boston is beastly. Tampa & Montreal are good but only just good. Detroit is old and busted, Ottawa Buffalo, & Florida in various states of hot mess. If the Leafs fix their system issues, they're easily at the Tampa & Montreal level.

MindzEye
03-26-2014, 07:37 PM
First of all the Raps play in a horrendous conference where the Louisville Cardinals have a shot at a playoff spot, the west is night and day a difference conference .

So night & day that the Raptors are 15-14 against them overall. 13-9 since the Rudy Gay trade.

The Raps are a good club in any conference, any division.


Tim hired the right GM in Majuri but he had a solid start in 3 solid kids to work within a starting 5 . He moved the wrong fits that " Collarhead Dickhead " had and doesnt look like the patch and bandaid show of BC .

I fail to see what you're arguing about here. TL, despite being a basketball guy, didn't follow the conventional wisdom and bring someone in with the expressed expectation of blowing it up and tanking in a draft that many clubs were drooling about. There were tons of articles written about why the Raptors should tank, etc and a lot of rumours that we were considering tanking, etc. TL hired the right guy and got the **** out of the way, exactly what you want a senior executive to do.




Majuri was close to blowing it up when he mentioned " we wont be in nowhere land " , out of nowhere they starting winning and gelling after the Gay deal and all of us are shocked at what happened .

Yep. TL hired the right guy, who took the right approach to what was considered a talented, but flawed group previously.


These arent your Leafs my friend , much tougher competition in the division .

The level of competition hasn't mattered to the Raptors. Atlantic isn't that tough anyway. Boston is beastly. Tampa & Montreal are good but only just good. Detroit is old and busted, Ottawa Buffalo, & Florida in various states of hot mess. If the Leafs fix their system issues, they're easily at the Tampa & Montreal level.

uncus
03-29-2014, 04:04 PM
leafs are too soft and have no real leadership on the ice.
The guys you would expect to step up ; phaneuf, lupul, kulimen (who has never been the same since gleason cleaned his clock), Clarkson, Orr (declining fights this season WTF your here to fight so fight you idiot). They have shown zero leadership when the times are bad .... they all just seem to watch and wait until kessel scores them out of the slump or bernier stops everything shot on net.

Leafyblue
03-29-2014, 04:11 PM
Just get Gary Roberts on payroll. You can figure out his job description later. Even if he only has to walk into the dressing room between periods with that stare every one in a while...it would be worth millions.

MindzEye
03-29-2014, 05:31 PM
If Gary Roberts was interested in a spot within the organization, we'd be mental to not add him.

Naz Kadri needs moar Gary in his life. The last time he trained with Gary, he came back and lit up the league. But Burke and Eakins didn't like that he didn't lose enough fat (when muscle mass is the kids problem, not his weight) and got him back with Belza. If the kid had trained with Roberts again last year, he would have been better this year.

Habsy
03-30-2014, 01:32 AM
Hire Laviolette and make Roberts his assistant.

ForeverTML
03-31-2014, 12:02 PM
So with nine games left, we’re about to find out how much we’ve grown as an organization. We’ll do one of two things. We’ll give up, which would tell us an awful lot about what we have to do here. Or we’ll respond and get in. If we do, we’ll probably have to win six games. I wouldn’t want to play us then, because we’d be the hot team going in.”

Timmy L, March 24

leafman101
03-31-2014, 12:08 PM
Yeah, it sounds like and it makes sense that he would make wholesale changes and bring in his own people. He's not very good with failure.

It wouldn't be a shocker to see him bring in Hextall from the Kings.

Pronger84
03-31-2014, 12:13 PM
Timmy L, March 24

Looks like it's the first one, were folding like a cheap tent.

zeke
03-31-2014, 03:01 PM
Remember when everyone was making fun of Yzerman for being an awful gm?

Looks like he learned a thing or two from detroit management.

We should be trying to poach someone from det/bos/stl/la management.

TimHorton
03-31-2014, 03:14 PM
I suspect TL has an LA guy in mind, or like Hextall, a former LA guy.

Volcanologist
03-31-2014, 03:15 PM
Remember when everyone was making fun of Yzerman for being an awful gm?

Looks like he learned a thing or two from detroit management.

We should be trying to poach someone from det/bos/stl/la management.

We had the chance to hire Jim Nill, and chose JFJ instead.

ForeverTML
03-31-2014, 03:24 PM
Remember when everyone was making fun of Yzerman for being an awful gm?

Looks like he learned a thing or two from detroit management.

We should be trying to poach someone from det/bos/stl/la management.

Boston/St. Louis scouting >>>

Just phenomenal team building from top to bottom.

JackBurton
04-01-2014, 02:38 AM
We had the chance to hire Jim Nill, and chose JFJ instead.

Yeah, that was brilliant.

trujaysfan
04-01-2014, 02:44 PM
@JeffMarek: Claude Loiselle on Hockey Central at Noon mentions that Leafs president and CEO Tim Lieweke has met with the players. That's interesting...

leafman101
04-01-2014, 02:45 PM
Can't be a good sign for the coach.

MindzEye
04-01-2014, 02:55 PM
Burn the bridges

Volcanologist
04-01-2014, 03:06 PM
Can't be a good sign for the coach.

The coach? what about the GM??

Rumpleforeskin
04-01-2014, 03:07 PM
feed the F@#King chickens guys

leafman101
04-01-2014, 03:07 PM
The coach? what about the GM??

Still not convinced of that one, but I certainly hope so.

I have had enough of an emphasis on shitty truculence in free agency and the draft.

MindzEye
04-01-2014, 03:34 PM
The coach? what about the GM??

Kinda hard to get a good gauge of a GM by asking the players, no?

Volcanologist
04-01-2014, 03:56 PM
Still not convinced of that one, but I certainly hope so.

I have had enough of an emphasis on shitty truculence in free agency and the draft.


I'm not convinced either. But hearing something like this doesn't look good for him IMO, and I wouldn't cry if they flushed the entire thing and started fresh(at least from a management/coaching perspective).

Our scouting, both pro and amateur, leaves a lot to be desired over the past number of years. Our drafting has to be miles better, not necessarily from a quantity perspective other than to stop trading our higher picks, but from a quality perspective. We're just not producing enough serious impact talent. Karlsson and PK Subban were not ultra high picks, that has to start being us for a change. If Dave Morrison can't find those players then let's find somebody who can. And yeah, I don't know who in our braintrust is recommending that we sign the likes of Komisarek, Armstrong, Clarkson but to me that's almost as bad as actually going ahead and doing it.

consider the Wings, who are trying like hell down the stretch with a badly injured team to extend a 22 year playoff streak. Think about that for a second. They were once just like us, a leaguewide punchline that was working on a 40+ year Cup drought.

On the truculence thing, I also agree. I think the game is still truculent but not nearly as much in the oldschool Colton Orr sense anymore. The Leafs need to start making skill with hockey IQ their priority from top to bottom. One very small example is getting rid of a guy like Cody Franson, who has some talent but also the hockey IQ of a sea sponge. That isn't a player you're going to build a real winning team with.

Volcanologist
04-01-2014, 03:58 PM
Kinda hard to get a good gauge of a GM by asking the players, no?

I don't understand what you mean. shouldn't it be Nonis representing management if its decided a lockerroom visit is required? Maybe I'm offbase but it looks weird to me. If you're batshit crazy Melnyk or something then yeah, okay, but that's not the case here.

leafman101
04-01-2014, 04:01 PM
I like the job our scouts have done. Any time they have gone after skill it seems to work out well on paper at least. The only problem is they've only gone skill with extremely high picks, or mid- late rounders. Guys like Rielly and Kadri obviously don't need further discussion, but in the later rounds grabbing guys like Leivo, Brown, Verghaghe, McKegg, Johnson, D'Amigo they've pulled some decent looking prospects.

But it seems like every pick between 10 and 60 is wasted on truculence/low upside like Gauthier, Biggs, Ross, Ryan, Hayes. The once exception being Finn who is our best prospect, and I guess Percy, but he is still a safe, low upside pick.

I don't like the orders they get from management.

And yeah, trading picks doesn't help.

trujaysfan
04-01-2014, 04:07 PM
From what i have seen and heard TL is more hands on with the teams than his predecessor peddie because his job is the teams and not building real estate. I don't think it is from an interference point of view but more to keep the lines of communication open because the inner workings of these teams is his business. So him being the man from the Front Office to make his way down and talk with the players doesn't surprise me.

The one thing i have seen is that when TL gets involved and see things he doesn't like it is a very bad sign for all involved. He likely doesn't think that Carlyle has the attention of the room at this point, ill see if i can ask some questions next time i see the MLSE guys i know.

Leafin'
04-01-2014, 04:15 PM
Not sure how much to read into the Leiweke comment by Loiselle. As soon as he said it, he wished he took it back.

If we continue this losing streak, i slice and dice this organization top to bottom.

New President of Hockey Operations, new General Manager + Staff, new Head Coach + staff, new training and scouting staff.

Getting Gretzky as mentioned before should be an avenue we explore. Build on the brand that we have. We are the Toronto Maple Leafs afterall, not the Florida Panthers. We should be getting the best of the best in all regards. We make the most money, spend it, and spend it wisely.

As for General Managers go, im not sure who we would bring in and who would mesh well with Wayne Gretzky and Tim Leiweke.

MindzEye
04-01-2014, 07:41 PM
I don't understand what you mean. shouldn't it be Nonis representing management if its decided a lockerroom visit is required? Maybe I'm offbase but it looks weird to me. If you're batshit crazy Melnyk or something then yeah, okay, but that's not the case here.

I see what you're saying now. Yeah, it might say something about what he thinks concerning Nonis, or maybe he's just a really hands on guy and doesn't want to hear from the players through a filter (Nonis). Tough to say. Bigger indictment of the coach though imo. A lot of coaches have lost their jobs after end of season meetings with the players.

Here's hoping this is another one.

trujaysfan
04-02-2014, 01:41 PM
Little more insight into the TL meetings

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2014/04/01/mlse-ceo-tim-leiweke-has-been-meeting-with-toronto-maple-leafs-players-since-collapse-began-assistant-gm-says-in-radio-interview/

IrishWolfman
04-02-2014, 01:53 PM
Not sure how much to read into the Leiweke comment by Loiselle. As soon as he said it, he wished he took it back.

If we continue this losing streak, i slice and dice this organization top to bottom.

New President of Hockey Operations, new General Manager + Staff, new Head Coach + staff, new training and scouting staff.

Getting Gretzky as mentioned before should be an avenue we explore. Build on the brand that we have. We are the Toronto Maple Leafs afterall, not the Florida Panthers. We should be getting the best of the best in all regards. We make the most money, spend it, and spend it wisely.

As for General Managers go, im not sure who we would bring in and who would mesh well with Wayne Gretzky and Tim Leiweke.

Getting rid of the scouting staff is a "full retard" proposition. We have guys like Dave Morrisonn and Thommie Bergmann that we're lucky to have. They'd be unemployed for maybe five minutes.

leafman101
04-02-2014, 01:56 PM
Getting rid of the scouting staff is a "full retard" proposition. We have guys like Dave Morrisonn and Thommie Bergmann that we're lucky to have. They'd be unemployed for maybe five minutes.

They need a new mandate though. Enough of this draft guys that are big and physical and don't have skill.

trujaysfan
04-02-2014, 02:12 PM
It seams like we have been trying to draft Lucic 2.0 for as long as i can remember

Volcanologist
04-02-2014, 02:17 PM
Getting rid of the scouting staff is a "full retard" proposition. We have guys like Dave Morrisonn and Thommie Bergmann that we're lucky to have. They'd be unemployed for maybe five minutes.

Pretty sure Carlyle will get another job too.

Wayward DP
04-02-2014, 04:26 PM
In fairness, we don't know if it's a scouting issue or just a draft philosophy issue.

Bleedsblue&white
04-02-2014, 04:29 PM
I'm not sure if personnel changes are enough if we can't get of the players hurting us as well.
A new coach, staff, etc, will not change the possible leadership issues.

mbow30
04-02-2014, 04:36 PM
purge the idiots. teams that have a (basically) zero tolerance policy for stupid players are usually the best teams. look at the success Pittsburgh has had surrounding their stars with crap. they love their systems guys (Talbot, dupuis, etc.). look at Detroit. look at new jersey.

Meanwhile, look at teams like Ottawa, Toronto and Philadelphia, who always seem to pack some legitimate talent but surround their stars with stupid players who make bad decisions...

MindzEye
04-02-2014, 05:15 PM
They need a new mandate though. Enough of this draft guys that are big and physical and don't have skill.

In fairness, they only did that once. It was an epic waste of a 1st rounder, but it's one that screams 'Burke's pick'

leafman101
04-02-2014, 05:29 PM
Nah. Biggs, Gauthier, Ross, Ryan. Percy isn't big and tough, but he is a low skill/low ceiling guy. They have more often that emphasized drafted other things over skill in the 1st and 2nd round (outside of the top 10).

But look at the job the scouts have done in the later rounds when they are allowed to go for skill. McKegg, Leivo, D'Amigo, Johnson, Vergaghe, Brown. They are good. The mandate is bad though.

Their early draft strategy has been shit.

LeafGm
04-02-2014, 05:40 PM
In fairness, they only did that once. It was an epic waste of a 1st rounder, but it's one that screams 'Burke's pick'
Twice, if you count senile Cliff's tenure at the helm prior to joining Burke's management team.

MindzEye
04-02-2014, 05:41 PM
Nah. Biggs, Gauthier, Ross, Ryan. Percy isn't big and tough, but he is a low skill/low ceiling guy. They have more often that emphasized drafted other things over skill in the 1st and 2nd round (outside of the top 10).

Both Brad Ross & Gauthier were PPG players entering the draft. So it's not like they were drafting inept offensive players. There's nothing wrong with putting addition value on size, toughness, etc if the offensive chops appear to be there.


But look at the job the scouts have done in the later rounds when they are allowed to go for skill. McKegg, Leivo, D'Amigo, Johnson, Vergaghe, Brown.

Leivo was .5ppg in his draft season, D'Amigo a 1.05ppg in the USHL (roughly translated to a .95ppg in the CHL), Verhaeghe a .6ish ppg in his draft season, Connor Brown a .8ish. How are they skill picks and the PPG Gauthier is a low skill pick?


Their early draft strategy has been shit though.

I don't know man. That's the same draft strategy that valued Kadri & Rielly over a whole of player who fit the mold of what you're claiming their draft strategy to be.

MindzEye
04-02-2014, 05:41 PM
Twice, if you count senile Cliff's tenure at the helm prior to joining Burke's management team.

Got us JVR...

LeafGm
04-02-2014, 05:47 PM
Got us JVR...
I hope the Leafs front office sends Paul Holmgren a Christmas card for that every year.

MindzEye
04-02-2014, 05:49 PM
I hope the Leafs front office sends Paul Holmgren a Christmas card for that every year.


No need, I've started it on their behalf.

Btw...what's a "restaining order"?

Volcanologist
04-02-2014, 05:52 PM
Instead of ever getting a guy like Bergeron or Backes or Lucic past the first round, even once in a blue moon....we get servicable nonentities like Matt Stajan and Kulemin -- best case. Worst case a whole bunch of John Dohertys and Kenny Ryans and Phil Oreskovics in the first few rounds. We're just not getting nearly enough good NHL players from the draft.

It's the reason why here in Toronto we have to continually get most of our top talent from other teams, whether by trade or free agency. It isn't coming from within, at least in any consistently impactful way.

I think it's laughable to say it's "full retard" to change the scouts given our results. I do like Bergmann, but I don't see what is so great about the rest of them when you look at our drafting record.

Wayward DP
04-02-2014, 05:53 PM
Before shitting on the Leafs drafting record, I'd like to see a comparison of our draft picks (NHL games played/round or something of that ilk) vs the rest of the league...

Volcanologist
04-02-2014, 05:58 PM
Before shitting on the Leafs drafting record, I'd like to see a comparison of our draft picks (NHL games played/round or something of that ilk) vs the rest of the league...

Yes, we've had that argument presented here before. The Leafs do indeed produce NHL players judging strictly by games played....problem is, they're not usually among the better ones. Matt Stajan has made it past 700 career games, that's pretty damn good.

But so what?

That's why I said it needs to improve in terms of quality, not strictly in terms of quantity.

BeLeafer
04-02-2014, 05:59 PM
The amateur scouting seems the least of the Leafs problems. In terms of development the biggest issue is the perpetual willingness to cough up draft picks.

Now, pro scouting leaves much - very much - to be desired, although they've done well with the pro trades for the most part.

mbow30
04-02-2014, 05:59 PM
I'm not sure if Boston's second round successes were superior drafting or just dumb luck.

Frankly, if you land a Stajan or Kulemin in round two you're doing really well. That they got all of Lucic, Krejci and Bergeron is remarkable.

Their other 2nd rounders dating back to 2000, have basically all stunk

2000: Andy Hilbert (4th line C); Ivan Huml
2001: N/A
2002: Vladislav Yevseyev
2003: Patrice Bergeron (1st/2nd line C); Masi Marjamaki
2004: David Krejci (1st/2nd line C); Martins Karsums
2005: Petr Kalus
2006: Yuri Alexandrov; Milan Lucic (2nd line W)
2007: Tommy Cross
2008: Maxime Sauve
2009: N/A
2010: Jared Knight; Ryan Spooner

Sauve and Knight are marginal prospects. Spooner's an undersized centre who has looked excellent in the AHL but doesn't have a goal in 26 NHL games.

Wayward DP
04-02-2014, 06:02 PM
Yes, we've had that argument presented here before. The Leafs do indeed produce NHL players judging strictly by games played....problem is, they're not usually among the better ones. Matt Stajan has made it past 700 career games, that's pretty damn good.

But so what?

That's why I said it needs to improve in terms of quality, not strictly in terms of quantity.

You can't just shit on the Leafs drafting/development without any sort of reference point. Well I mean you can, because then you can make whatever baseless assertions you want about it. But for the criticisms to be valid, or have any relevance, there needs to be some sort of indication as to how the Leafs are performing compared to league average.

The majority of draft picks are busts. If we hold the Leafs scouting staff to unrealistic standards, obviously the job they do will be considered a failure.

Volcanologist
04-02-2014, 06:04 PM
That's only one team, if you want to write it off to luck that's certainly your right. I just picked Bergeron as one example out of the air, there are plenty of others across the league.

But we must be the unluckiest scouting staff in the world then, because we're not even getting our share of flukes and steals.

Volcanologist
04-02-2014, 06:07 PM
You can't just shit on the Leafs drafting/development without any sort of reference point. Well I mean you can, because then you can make whatever baseless assertions you want about it. But for the criticisms to be valid, or have any relevance, there needs to be some sort of indication as to how the Leafs are performing compared to league average.

The majority of draft picks are busts. If we hold the Leafs scouting staff to unrealistic standards, obviously the job they do will be considered a failure.

My reference point is our perpetual lack of talent depth and chronic inability to produce core players/stars for the Maple Leafs. My reference point is constantly having to trade for or sign our best players, something that has been going on for decades.

What's your reference point?

Wayward DP
04-02-2014, 06:19 PM
My reference point is our perpetual lack of talent depth and chronic inability to produce core players/stars for the Maple Leafs. My reference point is constantly having to trade for or sign our best players, something that has been going on for decades.

What's your reference point?

So, your argument is basically, 'the Leafs haven't drafted and developed as many players as I think they should, or players as skilled as I think they should be, therefore we draft poorly. And, I come to this conclusion without doing any research to determine if my expectations are reasonable given the success of other teams drafting.'?

Of course, on our roster currently, we have:
JVR - acquired for a Leafs draft pick
Bozie - not a draft pick, but developed internally
Kessel - acquired for only draft picks
Kadri - Leafs draft pick
Kulemin - Leafs draft pick
Bolland - acquired for only draft picks
Rielly - Leafs draft pick
Gunnarsson - Leafs draft pick
Reimer - Leafs draft pick
Bernier - acquired for a draft pick, undrafted FA, and prospect

Draft picks who have played for us this season include: Leivo, D'Amigo.
In the pipeline: Percy, Finn, Brown, Verhaeghe

And that's just off the top of my head...

You should also recognize that draft picks are valuable assets, and if you can recoup NHLers in return for them, you've likely already won the deal (i.e. Kessel, Bolland is better than most 2nd rounders, Bernier, etc) and that would be an example of a team using its draft picks wisely, nor poorly.

I mean, feel free to show me that the average NHL team drafts and develops players at a higher level than the Leafs. Or just continue caterwauling about the Leafs failing to meet your expectations, making them failures...

Metalleaf
04-02-2014, 06:38 PM
The Marlies will be interesting to watch in the playoffs this year, their entire team is predominantly Leaf draft picks...first time we've had a farm team like that since St. John's.

Volcanologist
04-02-2014, 07:03 PM
So, your argument is basically, 'the Leafs haven't drafted and developed as many players as I think they should, or players as skilled as I think they should be, therefore we draft poorly. And, I come to this conclusion without doing any research to determine if my expectations are reasonable given the success of other teams drafting.'?


No, that would your moronic mischaracterization of my argument.

Feel free to list the core/star players our system has produced for us, particularly past the first round. Once you do that for yourself, my argument becomes crystal clear. Or should.



Of course, on our roster currently, we have:
JVR - acquired for a Leafs draft pick


....a trade. A core player we had to get from another team, in fact. Nobody is saying it was a bad move, just that yet again the talent has to come from outside.



Bozie - not a draft pick, but developed internally


A free agent signing. Fair enough on the development, but that he wasn't a draft pick is my point.



Kessel - acquired for only draft picks


Correct. Another top level player that we traded for, because we can't seem to draft one ourselves. Just like Mats Sundin 20 years ago, or Doug Gilmour.



Kadri - Leafs draft pick
Kulemin - Leafs draft pick
Bolland - acquired for only draft picks
Rielly - Leafs draft pick
Gunnarsson - Leafs draft pick
Reimer - Leafs draft pick
Bernier - acquired for a draft pick, undrafted FA, and prospect


Again, you're including guys we brought in by trade. We're discussing the Leaf amateur scouting department here.

Rielly looks like he could be a frontline player for us. Kadri is still a possibility but has not been that guy yet, save the shortened season. You're then listing a 3rd line forward, a backup goalie, and a fourth defenceman as proof that we draft well? There's nothing special about any of that.



Draft picks who have played for us this season include: Leivo, D'Amigo.
In the pipeline: Percy, Finn, Brown, Verhaeghe

And that's just off the top of my head...

You should also recognize that draft picks are valuable assets, and if you can recoup NHLers in return for them, you've likely already won the deal (i.e. Kessel, Bolland is better than most 2nd rounders, Bernier, etc) and that would be an example of a team using its draft picks wisely, nor poorly.

I mean, feel free to show me that the average NHL team drafts and develops players at a higher level than the Leafs. Or just continue caterwauling about the Leafs failing to meet your expectations, making them failures...

Feel free to provide that list of core/star players anytime man.

You've done absolutely nothing but prove my point here. I think my favourite part was "and that's just off the top of my head", like you just came up with some huge impressive list. Amusing. The Leafs have made some wise trades and bad ones too. But we're not talking about those, we're talking about the performance of our scouting staff in recent years and the results at the NHL level.

As for Bolland being better than a second rounder, do you mean the player or, if he walks away this offseason, the sum value of what he gave us this season? I think that's a debatable statement.

One more thing...you keep mentioning "the average team". Is that your bar for the Leafs? Serious question.

Wayward DP
04-02-2014, 07:18 PM
No, that would your moronic mischaracterization of my argument.

Feel free to list the core/star players our system has produced for us, particularly past the first round. Once you do that for yourself, my argument becomes crystal clear. Or should.

So you say I mischaracterize your argument... and then do nothing to clarify it.

At this point, I have no idea what you're actually arguing. As far as I can tell, you're now harping on about "core/star players our system has produced for us".




....a trade. A core player we had to get from another team, in fact. Nobody is saying it was a bad move, just that yet again the talent has to come from outside.

This is a core player our system has produced for us. We produced Luke Schenn, then traded him. Unless you now want to argue that core players drafted and developed internally are magically better than those acquired by other means...



Correct. Another top level player that we traded for, because we can't seem to draft one ourselves. Just like Mats Sundin 20 years ago, or Doug Gilmour.

I don't get this. Why is it bad that we trade for Kessel? If we hadn't, we likely get Tyler Seguin. And how does this impact negatively on our scouts?




Again, you're including guys we brought in by trade. We're discussing the Leaf amateur scouting department here.

Exactly, limiting the assessment of our scouting department only to players we've retained is idiotic. It's not a reflection of our scouting, it's a reflection of our manager's asset management. If our scouting department identifies players that are subsequently used down the road as assets to acquire better players, are they not doing a good job?


Rielly looks like he could be a frontline player for us. Kadri is still a possibility but has not been that guy yet, save the shortened season. You're then listing a 3rd line forward, a backup goalie, and a fourth defenceman as proof that we draft well? There's nothing special about any of that.


Again, I don't understand how this is an indictment of our system. You still haven't provided what you would qualify as adequate in the pep world of drafting and developing. And you stubbornly refuse to look at any other team, or league averages, to determine a sort of objective reference point for what can be considered 'success'.

All you're doing is arguing in a vacuum still, repeating the same old drivel that the Leafs don't draft and develop talent well.



Feel free to provide that list of core/star players anytime man.

You've done absolutely nothing but prove my point here. I think my favourite part was "and that's just off the top of my head", like you just came up with some huge impressive list. Amusing. The Leafs have made some wise trades and bad ones too. But we're not talking about those, we're talking about the performance of our scouting staff in recent years and the results at the NHL level.

So, talk about the performance of the scouts, but ignore the assets we used to acquire current core/star players? So the scouts only get credit based on management's decision to retain players?


As for Bolland being better than a second rounder, do you mean the player or, if he walks away this offseason, the sum value of what he gave us this season? I think that's a debatable statement.

One more thing...you keep mentioning "the average team". Is that your bar for the Leafs? Serious question.

Most 2nd round picks do not turn into NHLers (if I remember the stats correctly. Admittedly I could be wrong on this).

The 'average team' isn't my bar for the Leafs. I would like them to be an elite team. But in assessing the performance of their scouts, it's stupid to do so in a vacuum. Knowing the success rates of the 'average team' in drafting would give a better indication of the Leafs performance. Or, I mean, we could just use our guts, and our internal expectations... of course, that's entirely subjective.


This last bit isn't meant to be condescending or snarky... but I am legitimately confused as to what exactly you are arguing. Are you arguing that our scouts suck? Or that our management sucks? You variously mention our "system", "the Leafs amateur scouting department", and our "scouting staff". Because they're not one and the same. I would happily concede the Leafs have been poorly managed in recent memories, in particular the Fletcher/JFJ years. But it's unfair to pin poor management on our scouting department. The scouts can't magically make star players out of draft picks they don't have...

And again, you still haven't shown a single NHL team that does a better job drafting and developing players than Toronto.

Bleedsblue&white
04-02-2014, 07:21 PM
Good stuff, guys.

Volcanologist
04-02-2014, 07:44 PM
Wayward, make the list.

all will be revealed for you.

I can't make it any clearer than I have, it would just be repeating myself.

mbow30
04-02-2014, 08:05 PM
the leafs issue is the inability to churn out talent with first round picks. they have fared ok in the latter rounds. sometimes those guys turn into stars -- but that's a rarity. if you're turning those picks into solid contributors like stajan, kulemin, gunnarsson, etc. you're doing well.

you have to hit home runs in the first round, though.

the teams that did it with latter round picks and some savvy moves (i.e. boston) shouldn't be the model.

but when you look at the scoring leaders at forward:

Crosby (1st round)
Getzlaf (1st)
Giroux (1st)
Kessel (1st)
Seguin (1st)
Perry (1st)
Pavelski (7th)
Thornton (1st)
Backstrom (1st)
Sharp (3rd)
Hall (1st)
Malkin (1st)
Ovechkin (1st)
Benn (5th)
Duchene (1st)
Kane (1st)
Okposo (1st)
Toews (1st)
Kunitz (undrafted)
Marleau (1st)
Tavares (1st)
St. Louis (Undrafted)
Jagr (1st)
Wheeler (1st)
Kopitar (1st)
Krejci (2nd)
Landeskog (1st)
Little (1st)
Iginla (1st)
Spezza (1st)
Oshie (1st)
Steen (1st)
Eberle (1st)
MacKinnon (1st)
O'Rielly (2nd)
van Rimesdyk (1st)
Filppula (3rd)
Staal (1st)
Backes (2nd)
Bergeron (2nd)
Hossa (1st)
Voracek (1st)
Johansen (1st)
Simmonds (2nd)
Turris (1st)


... you get the point...

leafman101
04-02-2014, 08:10 PM
Yeah the Leafs have done well in the top 10, and in the 3rd round and later, but between 10 and 60 its been pretty fruitless.

Finn looks good though. The one time they actually took a guy with talent in that range.

hockeylover
04-02-2014, 08:15 PM
you have to hit home runs in the first round, though.

Awfully hard when you're picking guys that you know on draft day probably won't be 1st liners. And in fact, you say are likely third liners.

hockeylover
04-02-2014, 11:06 PM
Oh. And according to a few on the Habs board, we need to completely start over.

Metalleaf
04-02-2014, 11:13 PM
Oh. And according to a few on the Habs board, we need to completely start over.

A few on the Habs board are a few cheese curds short of a poutine.

Pronger84
04-02-2014, 11:31 PM
Oh. And according to a few on the Habs board, we need to completely start over.

Starting over wouldn't even be possible by trading away everyone, it just doesn't work like that. However a lot of work needs to be done in the offseason which should be:

1. Carlyle is fired, no matter which way you want to take this team he's just not working here
2. Management needs to figure out what identity this team should have going forward whether it be a puck possession style, dump and chase style, run and gun style
3. Once they figure out the identity, find a coach that coaches that type of style
4. Then you bring in the players fit to play said style and exile ones that don't

It's gonna be a long process but these are the 4 key steps MLSE needs to take if this team is ever to be a contender.

There are some good pieces on this Leafs team such as Kessel, JVR, Kadri, Rielly, Gardiner, Bernier but a lot of upgrades and questions marks outside of those guys. Nonis needs to figure out what to do with Kulemin, he needs to sit him down now and figure out if he wants to be here and if so how much, hopefully they can iron out a deal where he makes around $3-3.25M a season but if he wants more then he becomes trade bait. I wouldn't wait for FA and let Kulemin walk, if he wants too much $ then package him with a pick/prospect and try to wheel the way up to a higher pick, better to get something then nothing. Same thing with Bolland figure out if he wants to be here/how much term, if he gets greedy do the same thing and peddle him off at the draft table, it'd be absurd to give up all those picks for him only to wind up with jack shit if he leaves for FA.

UWHabs
04-03-2014, 10:16 AM
Oh. And according to a few on the Habs board, we need to completely start over.

That's not that much different than what a few people on this board were saying.

Wayward DP
04-03-2014, 10:26 AM
That's not that much different than what a few people on this board were saying.

Are*

hockeylover
04-03-2014, 10:36 AM
That's not that much different than what a few people on this board were saying.

I think that's pretty silly to be honest.

UWHabs
04-03-2014, 11:11 AM
I agree. Your team isn't in that bad of a shape to be totally blown up. But there definitely needs to be more than a paint job of changes.

leafman101
04-03-2014, 11:18 AM
They don't need to blow anything up. They just aren't as close to being done building as it looked like they were last year.

Pronger84
04-03-2014, 11:48 AM
I agree. Your team isn't in that bad of a shape to be totally blown up. But there definitely needs to be more than a paint job of changes.

They need to find their identity and stick to it. If they want to be a puck possesion team then so be it, if they want to be a physical team who plays dump n chase again so be it, but enough with just throwing things on the wall hoping it sticks.

Agreed, there are some good pieces on this team.

worm
04-03-2014, 12:00 PM
Oh. And according to a few on the Habs board, we need to completely start over.

Havn't read anything recently but I corrected a few the other day.

You are welcome :p

mbow30
04-03-2014, 12:01 PM
It isn't a matter of 'finding their identity'. They have an abundance of players who make very bad decisions on the ice.

You can get away with having a few of those guys, especially if their high risk play leads to big production. But right now, they have more players in the top nine who routinely make dumb plays than who don't (Lupul, Raymond, Kadri, JVR, Clarkson, and Kessel isn't immune from offensive-chance boners in transition), and two defensemen (Gardiner, Franson). Plus, a 19 year old and Phaneuf whose play has gone down the toilet over the past month.

The team loves its stretch passes, the forwards all love to just take off as soon as possession turns, and the defense just generally lacks attention to detail.

You aren't going to win with this bunch. Obviously, guys like Kessel, Kadri and Gardiner and high skill and you need those types to win... but you can't have an entire team built like that.

They overpaid for Clarkson because they thought he could be the sort of player who could help with the finer points -- who won't take off before the puck is out of the zone, who can make plays along the boards and who can cycle the puck but unfortunately he has zero hockey sense with the puck. Maybe he'll look better under a different coach (I'm not holding my breath).

But, ultimately, they need to mix in some guys who play NHL hockey. It isn't just about stretch passes and fancy stick work. You need to use your hips, you need to protect the puck and you need to be able to establish territory on the ice, and the Leafs really don't have guys who do these things.

Pronger84
04-03-2014, 12:06 PM
I disagree you need to have an identity, every team has one it dictates the strategies out there. Yes your're right too many people who don't use their brains out there, all are guilty of it (some more then others), and I don't get why the forwards cheat and why the D elects to use long bomb passes either, this team is built on speed and they could easily be a detroit style team if the forwards would ever learn to close the cap with the blueliners and keep their legs moving this allows for quicker/shorter passes and a quick/easier transitionn game with not as much time spent in their own end.

I think the blueline needs a massive overhaul too- I'm not suggesting we trade Phaneuf he's our best all around blueliner and nobody can play his minutes but I do think we need to acquire another top pairing guy. You know what? The season's over why not try Rielly out on the top pair with Phaneuf? I'd love to get a look of that, and I think Rielly out there with guys like Kessel/JVR could really help improve our transition game, in the mean time slide Gunnar down to the mid pairing with Gardiner (lets face it he needs an anchor) and have a bottom pairing of Gleason/Franson). In the offseason though for sure we need at least another top4 d who can play reliable 19-22 mins a game without hurting the team.

mbow30
04-03-2014, 12:07 PM
I mean, how many times have we seen JVR-Kessel-Bozak all end up behind the other team's net and a 3 on 2 going the other way? How many times have we seen Lupul throw blind passes in front of the net? How many times have we seen Kadri get caught flat footed in the neutral zone to create the 3-on-2 against? How many times have we seen Mason Raymond trip guys behind the other team's net on penalty kills? How many times have we seen Phaneuf start hack/chop/crosschecking guys out of frustration in close games? How many times have we seen Franson skate to the wrong corner, or lose his assignment? How many times have we seen Gardiner hang on to the puck for way too long and then either ice it or turn it over in the middle of the neutral zone? How many times have we seen Kadri and Lupul stay on the ice for minute and a half shifts? How many times have we seen JVR try that same stupid play from the side of the net that stopped working after about game 8?

Would a more structured environment help? To some extent. But it won't make players prone to making bad decisions stop making those bad decisions.

leafman101
04-03-2014, 12:08 PM
They are also terrible team in transition. Going both ways.

As you mentioned they just stink at getting out of the zone by constantly looking for the big play. And when it works its purely based off of skill, which is great to have a bunch of skilled guys that can make things happen. But when you combine that skill with responsible hockey thats is how you win.

And defensively there isn't enough backside pressure, or attention to detail in the neutral zone to prevent teams from gaining the zone and getting the puck back. Its just way too easy for teams to keep the puck against the Leafs going through the neutral zone, and as a result they end up scrambling around in their own end. They don't necessarily need to trap, but they pretty much just don't play in that zone. Just a bunch of floating.

Part of it is personnel up the middle and on the blue line. Part of it is Carlyle.

mbow30
04-03-2014, 12:11 PM
I disagree you need to have an identity, every team has one it dictates the strategies out there. Yes your're right too many people who don't use their brains out there, all are guilty of it (some more then others), and I don't get why the forwards cheat and why the D elects to use long bomb passes either, this team is built on speed and they could easily be a detroit style team if the forwards would ever learn to close the cap with the blueliners and keep their legs moving this allows for quicker/shorter passes and a quick/easier transitionn game with not as much time spent in their own end.

What identity does Detroit have?

What identity does Pittsburgh have?

These aren't aggressive, in your face teams. They're just teams that don't have tons of players who make costly, selfish errors at inopportune times.

It's nice to be aggressive and in your face like the Leafs were last year. It worked for a while. It mainly worked because they fell into the right mix for it to work (a dependable unit that skated well and could maintain possession with Grabo, and a guy who was in everybody's face, pissing everybody off without taking penalties... plus a third line C, playing 3rd/4th line matchups, who has 1st line talent).

But this identity thing is just a cliché/platitude. The Leafs need to look at what is successful in this league... and it's finding guys who don't constantly burn you. Right now the roster is stocked full of those types.

Pronger84
04-03-2014, 12:13 PM
What identity does Detroit have?

What identity does Pittsburgh have?

These aren't aggressive, in your face teams. They're just teams that don't have tons of players who make costly, selfish errors at inopportune times.

It's nice to be aggressive and in your face like the Leafs were last year. It worked for a while. It mainly worked because they fell into the right mix for it to work (a dependable unit that skated well and could maintain possession with Grabo, and a guy who was in everybody's face, pissing everybody off without taking penalties... plus a third line C, playing 3rd/4th line matchups, who has 1st line talent).

But this identity thing is just a cliché/platitude. The Leafs need to look at what is successful in this league... and it's finding guys who don't constantly burn you. Right now the roster is stocked full of those types.

Detroit has always been a puck possession team who spends very little time in their own end due to making the right pass and transitioning it up quickly to their forwards, they have been that way for as long as I can remember which is why despite average goaltending they have been able to be successful. I haven't watched many Penguins games so I can't comment on their identity.

I'm with you on this the Leafs need to get rid of the morons on this team, a guy like Clarkson comes to mind for instance whenever his line gets a good rush going he kills it by hogging the puck and just firing a weak/blind shot on net or falling on his ass. There's a lot of the same on this team I just don't want to waste time typing up all the examples, but Nonis in the off season needs to unleash these guys and bring in guys that are smart and hard to play against in all 3 zones.

leafman101
04-03-2014, 12:14 PM
Thats not an identity. Thats just playing hockey.

mbow30
04-03-2014, 12:17 PM
All you are describing is a team that keeps adding smart players who limit their mistakes. You can call it 'identity' if you want but that's just a cliché term. Detroit is successful because of the players Holland keeps bringing in.

Pronger84
04-03-2014, 12:18 PM
Thats not an identity. Thats just playing hockey.

Its an identity, if you look at a team like Boston they don't play anything like a Detroit. Boston loves to dump and chase, get in on the forecheck then get the puck back to their blueliners who fire off shots, they also love to wear you down physically.

Some teams in this league have similar styles, others much different ones. I still haven't figured out which style the Leafs want to employ this season though.

Pronger84
04-03-2014, 12:19 PM
All you are describing is a team that keeps adding smart players who limit their mistakes. You can call it 'identity' if you want but that's just a cliché term. Detroit is successful because of the players Holland keeps bringing in.

I agree Holland has made a lot of shrewd moves, and one of the things that impresses me about detroit is their draft choices and how they don't rush their propsects into the fold, but still they have always had that puck possession identity out there.

leafman101
04-03-2014, 12:20 PM
Yeah but Boston also has smart players who are good with the puck. That is a common thread with all good teams. Not an identity.

mbow30
04-03-2014, 12:22 PM
And yet, a decade ago Detroit was a physical team that played aggressively and had all sorts of guys who tried to wear down opponents with their forecheck and speed... and relied heavily on their talented defensemen to generate offense.

The Wings 'idnetity' today is much, much different than it was a decade ago.

Pronger84
04-03-2014, 12:22 PM
Yeah but Boston also has smart players who are good with the puck. That is a common thread with all good teams. Not an identity.

True, Boston has a lot of smart two way guys, Bergeron and Kreji IMO being 2 of the best 2 way guys in the NHL. At the end of the day though Claude Julien wants to employ a system and the players fall into it, IMO that's an identity.

Pronger84
04-03-2014, 12:23 PM
And yet, a decade ago Detroit was a physical team that played aggressively and had all sorts of guys who tried to wear down opponents with their forecheck and speed... and relied heavily on their talented defensemen to generate offense.

The Wings 'idnetity' today is much, much different than it was a decade ago.

I never recall Detroit being an overly physical team, which era was that in? albeit I'll admit I haven't watched them every season. I agree with you though a team's identity will change over the years espically if there's an ownership, GM or coaching change.

mbow30
04-03-2014, 12:25 PM
the 1950s-1960s.

Pronger84
04-03-2014, 12:26 PM
the 1950s-1960s.

Oh ok, way before my time lol.

mbow30
04-03-2014, 12:32 PM
in thelate 90s and early 2000s they had all sorts of players who played tough, aggressive hockey.

shanahan, chelios, draper, maltby, McCarty, kocur, rouse, holmstrom, lapointe, etc. etc.

Volcanologist
04-03-2014, 12:35 PM
"team identity" is just another one of those Pierre McGuire buzzwords that get thrown around.

MindzEye
04-03-2014, 01:35 PM
Yep....media narratives. Learning the media narratives is way easier than actually, you know, learning stuff about hockey and the teams.

Metalleaf
04-03-2014, 01:40 PM
If you can't read numbers, use tropes.

mbow30
04-03-2014, 01:41 PM
I think people are using the term 'identity' to mean 'play tougher and more physical'.

and that is true to an extent. They have been pretty soft this year. but that won't fix the core problems with this team. they were a tough and physical team last year but that didn't stop them from wilting at the worst possible moment.

Bleedsblue&white
04-03-2014, 01:55 PM
Team identity is a buzzword sure, but we know damn well our team had a different "identity," than it has this year.
I just want my team to be hard to play against, there are different ways to achieve that goal.

Pronger84
04-03-2014, 02:13 PM
Team identity is a buzzword sure, but we know damn well our team had a different "identity," than it has this year.
I just want my team to be hard to play against, there are different ways to achieve that goal.

This! I want this Leafs team to be tough to play against in all 3 zones, I don't want to see us getting outshot badly each night and I don't want to use other teams dominate us most games. The talent is there but for some reason it's just not comething together, like mbow said the issues run deep with this team and I hope they get rectified soon, because I'm tired of medocricy.

Metalleaf
04-03-2014, 02:14 PM
This team's identity has become Jay McClement and 7 D.

Pronger84
04-03-2014, 02:17 PM
This team's identity has become Jay McClement and 7 D.

Yep. As much as I love what Mcclement brings to the table, Randy shouldn't be playing him this much, he's best served as a 4th liner who can play on the top PK, he shouldn't be seeing more then 8-10 mins a game.

I don't mind the 7D, it divies up the ice time and allows Phaneuf not to be relied that heavily upon, Randy got it right using the 7D approach, I wish he would smarten up when it comes to Mcselke though.

Volcanologist
04-03-2014, 02:21 PM
I too would like to announce that I'm tired of medocricy in all its forms.

Metalleaf
04-03-2014, 02:22 PM
This team's "identity" should be a young fast team that is hard to handle in the O-zone and can handle themselves in the D-zone. But they are just mentally soft.

Pronger84
04-03-2014, 07:31 PM
This team's "identity" should be a young fast team that is hard to handle in the O-zone and can handle themselves in the D-zone. But they are just mentally soft.

Agreed. The problem is that outside of our core players (Kessel, Phaneuf, Rielly, Bernier, Kadri) teams won't give us much value outside of 2nd-5th rounders and mid ranged prospects, honestly that's why I feel a guy like a Gardiner is excellent trade bait without poaching off the core of this team.

Hoss
04-04-2014, 12:06 AM
This team still needs size up the middle. I like bolland. But that injury and the supposed term and money he is asking for makes me think he is gone.

If the staal rumours are true. You give up Kadri et al for Eric. You then move bozak to the second line centre roll and sign Paul Statsny as your third line centre. If bolland is asking north of five, I give around five to stats. Hopefully the fact he's been paid so much before drops his price.


That would be a very damn strong team down the middle.

Volcanologist
04-04-2014, 12:10 AM
sorry, why is Stastny going to take a 3rd line centre role here?

Pronger84
04-04-2014, 12:14 AM
sorry, why is Stastny going to take a 3rd line centre role here?

Yea I'm not getting it either guy is at worst a 2C, why would he want to come here to play sheltered minutes? The suggestion is almost as outrageous as Bolland demanding an 8 year contract worth north of $5M per year...

trujaysfan
04-04-2014, 06:53 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jv-P305iCDs

TL with strombo talking all things MLSE

Metalleaf
04-04-2014, 08:13 PM
I'm buying what he's selling.

blkngldbabe
04-04-2014, 09:04 PM
I get no sound. :(

Metalleaf
04-04-2014, 09:22 PM
I get no sound. :(

Rough translation, Bravado, No Fear, Winning = Ratings.

Leafin'
04-04-2014, 11:44 PM
Holy smokes what an interview.

Leiweke has my dream job, but he does it so well.

leafman101
04-05-2014, 09:25 AM
I like that guy. Sounds like he will clean house here. No way Dave Nonis is a Tim Leiweke kind of guy.

Hoss
04-05-2014, 11:19 AM
He knows the power of names and reputation.

With TFC, he knew he was the name... his reputation of bringing in Beckham and making the Galaxy the biggest name in MLS is that clout. He then gets Dafoe and Bradley and even brings back Derosario... instant credibility brought back to the franchise.

With the Raps, he hires the GM of the year, and he hires Drake as the embassador. (which also helped lure in Dafoe) We may think of Drake as just the degrassi kid, but he's got clout in the ipods of bball players.

The one thing he hasn't done is made that splash for the leafs. As he said in the interview, he thought with last years success that they didn't really need it, but with this swoon he is gonna get that name that he's looking for. With the cap, he can't really do it with roster players.. (although I could see him not giving a crap about the money in a buy out and dropping Clarkson.

I really think he is gonna go for Gretzky and Nicholson. As President and President of hockey operations or whatever. Lieweke knows the power of names and there are no bigger names in Canadian hockey than Gretz and Nicholson.

leafman101
04-05-2014, 11:49 AM
Its more than just making a splash though to bring in a name. He likes to surround himself with great people, who are passionate and inspiring.

There is a link there to Massai's interview with Strombo and he's the same type of guy Lieweke. Very bright and ton of energy. Nonis just isn't that big personality that inspires confidence in the organization.

Nicholson just makes way too much sense.

MindzEye
04-05-2014, 01:03 PM
With the Raps, he hires the GM of the year, and he hires Drake as the embassador. (which also helped lure in Dafoe) We may think of Drake as just the degrassi kid, but he's got clout in the ipods of bball players.

Drake and Lebron James are very, very close friends...like, almost besties.

Let that shit marinate for a second.

Metalleaf
04-05-2014, 01:38 PM
Durant will play in Toronto before Lebron does IMO.

JackBurton
04-05-2014, 01:58 PM
Durant will need to get out of that hick market.

The Raps were his fav. team growing up.

Leafin'
04-05-2014, 10:39 PM
Wonder when the first domino falls.

Pronger84
04-05-2014, 11:28 PM
Wonder when the first domino falls.

First domino falls I think before the season ending press conference, I think Nonis knows that to save his own ass here he has to get rid of Randy. Second big splash I bet would be TL bringing in Gretzky to MLSE in some capacity, maybe as president of hockey operations or as little as a liason to the Leafs, either way I can see him being hired.

Pronger84
04-05-2014, 11:29 PM
Its more than just making a splash though to bring in a name. He likes to surround himself with great people, who are passionate and inspiring.

There is a link there to Massai's interview with Strombo and he's the same type of guy Lieweke. Very bright and ton of energy. Nonis just isn't that big personality that inspires confidence in the organization.

Nicholson just makes way too much sense.

I have two questions- 1. Was Burke fired before TL was hired 2. If Burke was fired after TL was brought in then why the firing? Burke's a bright and passionate guy, sure he's a loudmouth at times but he knows his stuff.

Leafin'
04-05-2014, 11:39 PM
Before.

LeafGm
04-06-2014, 12:07 AM
Wonder when the first domino falls.
Can't be too long after the season's finished, particularly if TL completely cleans house.

You'd think they'd want to give whoever the new GM is as much time as possible to prepare for the draft.

Leafin'
04-06-2014, 12:17 AM
You think they'll can Nonis?

trujaysfan
04-06-2014, 12:17 AM
The real question is who is the M Bradley or K Lowry that they are looking for? From the interview it is clear he doesn't think of Phil Kessel or Dion Phaneuf that way

MindzEye
04-06-2014, 12:19 AM
Before.

Long before. Like, 4-5 months before. Burke being fired has everything to do with the telecomm duopoly ownership group being uncomfortable with him as the public face of their flagship brand and nothing to do with Timmy not liking Burke.

In fact, I wouldn't be stunned if TL wanted Burke back as GM. I don't think it would play with the board, but Burke is the exact type of executive that TL loves.

MindzEye
04-06-2014, 12:21 AM
You think they'll can Nonis?

Yes

Nonis looks like he thinks this as well, the guy looked like a deer in the headlights, after it got hit, all night tonight. He has no track record of success (not as TL would define it), no personality, and his team just flopped out of the playoffs with his 35 million dollar purchase being a flop of historic level. There's zero chance that TL is remotely impressed with the job he did (especially considering the fact that Nonis' best move as a Leaf seems to be something he was told by TL to do, rather than a stroke of Nonis genius), and with both TFC & the Raptors successful after TL rolled his sleeves up and got involved, TL has to be dying to put his stamp on the flagship.

Leafin'
04-06-2014, 12:21 AM
All in on John Tavares!

Leafin'
04-06-2014, 12:34 AM
The real question is who is the M Bradley or K Lowry that they are looking for? From the interview it is clear he doesn't think of Phil Kessel or Dion Phaneuf that way

You have any players that would fit that?

trujaysfan
04-06-2014, 12:37 AM
Only person that may be available that could fit that level of heart/drive would be Ladd? but still not a really good fit that I see.

but just a guess at best on my part as i consider those 2 to be in the power forward ilk when comparing other sports to an NHL player

Habsy
04-06-2014, 12:38 AM
Question: Does Carlyle roll four lines with consistency or has he basically relied heavily on three lines all year long?

trujaysfan
04-06-2014, 12:39 AM
Question: Does Carlyle roll four lines with consistency or has he basically relied heavily on three lines all year long?

he has played 7 D with a Goon dressed as well for a decent amount of the season

LeafGm
04-06-2014, 12:44 AM
You think they'll can Nonis?
I hope so. And based on how Leiweke's described Masai Ujiri and Tim Bezbatchenko and why they're his kind of guys, Nonis doesn't exactly seem to be cast from the same mold. But we'll have to see. Carlyle, at least, has to be gone for sure.


Long before. Like, 4-5 months before. Burke being fired has everything to do with the telecomm duopoly ownership group being uncomfortable with him as the public face of their flagship brand and nothing to do with Timmy not liking Burke.

In fact, I wouldn't be stunned if TL wanted Burke back as GM. I don't think it would play with the board, but Burke is the exact type of executive that TL loves.
FYI, in that TL/Strombo interview posted on the last page, Leiweke mentioned that he considers Brian Burke to be a close personal friend, and still goes to him at least once a month to bounce ideas off him and ask for advice.

Interestingly enough, he also pretty much took credit for what has been Nonis's best move this year---bringing in Bernier.

Metalleaf
04-06-2014, 12:56 AM
I think Evander Kane will be a Leaf.

leafman101
04-06-2014, 01:27 AM
They have to fire Nonis. He only got the job by default in the first place.

Hoss
04-06-2014, 01:43 AM
Lieweke will be all in on Stamkos in 2016... if not earlier, by offering a trade before his UFA year.

Corky27
04-06-2014, 02:02 AM
I'm excited to see what TL does. No doubt he really shakes things up. I still maintain that this team has a lot of good pieces. The attitude needs to really change. The core needs to change but there are really some great pieces. There needs to be a change in direction and i know TL will take care of that.

Pronger84
04-06-2014, 02:37 AM
I'm excited to see what TL does. No doubt he really shakes things up. I still maintain that this team has a lot of good pieces. The attitude needs to really change. The core needs to change but there are really some great pieces. There needs to be a change in direction and i know TL will take care of that.

Every team in this league has some good pieces, it goes without saying that Leafs have them as well. I found it interesting tonight that Randy said in the pregame conference that "we freeze out there, take a breath and breathe", the question I'm wondering is why do they freeze? To me it boils down to a lack of leadership on this team, we don't have any veterans to help settle the boys down out there, it's almost as if when 1-2 players start panicking it trickles down and effects the rest of the team.

You say the core needs to change, and I agree to a point that it does but I'm not sure it's entirely feasible that it does, if you look at our core right now its Kessel/JVR/Phaneuf/Bernier/Kadri(to a lesser extent)... that is our core the question is does managment have the balls to actually trade one or more of those guys? If so they have to realize that they while they will get significant assets back it won't be equal value for one of those mentioned players.

Looking at this team I feel we need:
1. A top pairing blueliner to play with Phaneuf
2. An upgrade on our mid pairing blueline, someone who can upgrade Franson
3. A 2nd line winger- Prefably a vet (30-34) who is big, who can chip in 20-25 goals/50ish points a season. When I say 2nd line winger, I mean someone who can play in Clarkson's spot, because he's just god awful in that role currently. Lupul is OK for now, he puts up adequate 2nd line point totals and while I'd dangle him as trade bait I wouldn't just rush him out the door either


To me those are our biggest needs that I feel Nonis needs to work on addressing THIS offseason, key in on that is what I think should be done. As for options for
1. Meyers is worth looking at in Buffalo, young guy who badly needs a change of scenery and wouldn't cost more then picks and a prospect. He's got the size, skating, strength, physicallity and offensive output to be a top pairing guy to play along side Phaneuf
2. A guy like Edler or even Robidas may be an option for the 2nd unit. If not, then do nothing and just slide Gunnarsson down to the mid pairing, he is a very steady eddie guy who can play with Rielly
3. Iginla wouldn't be a bad option to try out at the 2nd line wing. Yes he's 37, but he has shown he still has alot of gas left in the tank (he's got 60 points this season), he's strong along the boards, brings some fiestiness and can put up 50-60 points playing along side Kadri and Lupul (or whoever replaces him)

Pronger84
04-06-2014, 02:42 AM
All in on John Tavares!

I heard a rumour that Kessel would be going the other way for him. If so, while it's a fair value deal for both sides it doesn't make sense for the Leafs to pull the trigger on it, if you think about it for a few minutes. The Leafs have NO problems putting pucks in the net, and both Kessel/Tavares are 80-90 point guys so really your just trading one guy for another, and the problems on this teams don't get fixed.... sideways trade at best.

I'm not opposed to getting Tavares, but lets fix the needs of this team first before adding another scorer.

leafman101
04-06-2014, 09:42 AM
Of course you trade Kessel for Tavares if the islanders are stupid enough to do that. Tavares is a franchise center.

They aren't trading him though. Forget about guys like Stamkos and Tavares. Those guys are never getting traded.

MyNameIsJonas
04-06-2014, 09:58 AM
If Eric Staal, is really out there...i think he is the biggest splash to be made right or wrong for any team.

leafman101
04-06-2014, 10:09 AM
I don't think its possible for a team to wrongly acquire Eric Staal.

MyNameIsJonas
04-06-2014, 10:10 AM
I don't think its possible for a team to wrongly acquire Eric Staal.

Is it not possible for the cost to be too much?....ie Morgan Reilly?

UWHabs
04-06-2014, 10:11 AM
I don't think its possible for a team to wrongly acquire Eric Staal.

If it cost you Reilly, Kadri, and a first, that would likely be a wrong move

MyNameIsJonas
04-06-2014, 10:13 AM
Carolina is going to be interesting to watch.

I do believe they have to shed salary, but i'm curious what salary they look to move ( Ward, Semin) if they can actually move it, and if they can't that they move on to guys they might not want to move ( Staal, Staal, Skinner)

leafman101
04-06-2014, 10:16 AM
If it cost you Reilly, Kadri, and a first, that would likely be a wrong move

Would it though?

I would never trade Reilly, but its not like getting a 30 year old 6'4 number 1 center for that package would be bad for a team.

Not much in hockey that is harder to find than a big, elite front line center.

MyNameIsJonas
04-06-2014, 10:16 AM
Would it though?

I would never trade Reilly, but its not like getting a 30 year old 6'4 number 1 center for that package would be bad for a team.

If you would never trade him you answered your own question

leafman101
04-06-2014, 10:17 AM
If you would never trade him you answered your own question

Nah thats just a personal preference. I would never trade Eric Staal either.

JackBurton
04-06-2014, 11:10 AM
If it cost you Reilly, Kadri, and a first, that would likely be a wrong move

Staal won't cost that.

KingTucker
04-06-2014, 11:22 AM
Staal won't cost that.

Do we even want to give that much for Staal? Going to be 30 in October and coming off a down season. Hmmm, on the other hand he's signed for only two more years and Staal-Bozak-Kadri-McClement is much, much better. Unfortunately kid has NTC so he would need to be convinced to come to Toronto. Hearing Lieweke on the radio he's pretty confident in management, but could just be a vote of confidence.

BeLeafer
04-06-2014, 11:50 AM
Any guesses as to what Burke would have done if Leiweke ordered him to go after Bernier?

Wayward DP
04-06-2014, 11:58 AM
I think Evander Kane will be a Leaf.

I was thinking this too. Guy looks to be on the outs in Winnipeg.

Hell, I'd happily swap Lupul for him 1 for 1.

UWHabs
04-06-2014, 11:59 AM
Staal won't cost that.

If I was Carolina, that's what I would start by asking, and likely settle for Kadri, Gardiner, and a 1st. The package with Reilly I agree is an overpayment. The second one if I were the Leafs GM I would be very very tempted by.

Feyd
04-06-2014, 12:00 PM
Reimer for Kane. Done deal. Book it.

:couch

Metalleaf
04-06-2014, 12:06 PM
Rielly, folks....not Reilly.

JackBurton
04-06-2014, 12:09 PM
Do we even want to give that much for Staal? Going to be 30 in October and coming off a down season. Hmmm, on the other hand he's signed for only two more years and Staal-Bozak-Kadri-McClement is much, much better. Unfortunately kid has NTC so he would need to be convinced to come to Toronto. Hearing Lieweke on the radio he's pretty confident in management, but could just be a vote of confidence.

I would take a pass. Trade assets for a solid minutes-eater on the top pairing.

LeafGm
04-06-2014, 12:16 PM
I would take a pass. Trade assets for a solid minutes-eater on the top pairing.
That would be ideal. But the problem is, much like big, legitimate #1 centers, top-pairing defensemen are rarely available on the trade market.

Besides Jay Bouwmeester, when was the last time one got traded? When was the last time a legitimate #1 center got traded?

Habsy
04-06-2014, 12:17 PM
Wayne Gretzky?

JackBurton
04-06-2014, 12:20 PM
Myers is the best realistic solution imo.

Also, just throwing this out there, but if the Blues fail again in the playoffs, perhaps Shatnerkirk will be made available via trade.

leafman101
04-06-2014, 12:28 PM
They need a center as badly as they need a defenseman.

Metalleaf
04-06-2014, 12:30 PM
Sign Stastny, trade Kadri for a better D?

Pronger84
04-06-2014, 03:56 PM
Of course you trade Kessel for Tavares if the islanders are stupid enough to do that. Tavares is a franchise center.

They aren't trading him though. Forget about guys like Stamkos and Tavares. Those guys are never getting traded.

And Kessel is a franchise winger.... what's your point exactly? Mine is that you are trading one 80-90 point player for another, doing that trade does not help make this team better in anyway.

I agree though Tavares and Stamkos wont be traded anytime soon, I'd have to think with Wong getting his ass off the team and the move to Brooklyn, with new management it would be easy to entice John T to stay. As for Stamkos if he ever were a free agent he would come here but no way does he give up the warm year round climate and playing in a quiet media market to come to this hellhole.

leafman101
04-06-2014, 04:15 PM
Centers are more valuable than wingers. They are responsible for a way bigger portion of the ice.

Pronger84
04-06-2014, 05:01 PM
Centers are more valuable than wingers. They are responsible for a way bigger portion of the ice.

True, but John T is all offense just like Kessel is... again our problem isn't scoring goals it's keeping them OUT, trading one offensive weapon for another doesn't fix things here.

Metalleaf
04-06-2014, 05:33 PM
Tavares is one of the few players I'd trade Kessel for. Yzerman was all offence too, but as he got older he refined his game and became a great two-way player, I think Tavares has that in him too.

Leafin'
04-06-2014, 06:19 PM
Evander Kane - Nazem Kadri on the 2nd line would be fantastic. Add Clarkson to that line to stand infront of the net.

It'll be interesting to see what we do this offseason. We need a better group of defenders for sure.

Phaneuf - XXXX
Rielly -XXXX
XXXX - XXXX

Fill in the blanks.

Pronger84
04-06-2014, 07:03 PM
Evander Kane - Nazem Kadri on the 2nd line would be fantastic. Add Clarkson to that line to stand infront of the net.

It'll be interesting to see what we do this offseason. We need a better group of defenders for sure.

Phaneuf - XXXX
Rielly -XXXX
XXXX - XXXX

Fill in the blanks.

Phaneuf-Myers
Rielly-Gunnarson
Gleason-Orpik

Why do u want Clarkson on the 2nd line? He has shown he doesn't have the speed or offensive output to thrive there?

Metalleaf
04-06-2014, 07:05 PM
I'd like to see Clarkson with someone other than Carlyle, its almost certain he won't be as useless as he's been this season.

Leafin'
04-06-2014, 07:10 PM
THe only good thing with Clarklson going forward is that he can't be much worse than he was this year... or can he?

soco22
04-06-2014, 07:32 PM
THe only good thing with Clarklson going forward is that he can't be much worse than he was this year... or can he?

He could actually play 82 games next year = worse

Wayward DP
04-06-2014, 08:34 PM
Yeah, I don't hold out much hope for any improved play from Clarkson. He a) can't keep up with any of our top 9 forwards, b) has the passing skills of a blind man, and c) is a ****ing dumbass.

Pronger84
04-06-2014, 08:39 PM
Yeah, I don't hold out much hope for any improved play from Clarkson. He a) can't keep up with any of our top 9 forwards, b) has the passing skills of a blind man, and c) is a ****ing dumbass.

Him and Bolland had chemistry but then again do you really want to have $10 million tied up on two third liners? Waste of cap space. If I'm Nonis I try to either peddle him off on the first sucker that comes calling or I buy him out, either way he shouldnt be back here next year.

Wayward DP
04-06-2014, 08:52 PM
Him and Bolland had chemistry but then again do you really want to have $10 million tied up on two third liners? Waste of cap space. If I'm Nonis I try to either peddle him off on the first sucker that comes calling or I buy him out, either way he shouldnt be back here next year.

Not really, no. But I agree with your conclusion regardless.

Feyd
04-06-2014, 08:59 PM
Clarkson can't skate either. Always falling down.

Wayward DP
04-06-2014, 09:00 PM
Clarkson can't skate either. Always falling down.

Can't skate OR balance. Even worse.

Leafin'
04-06-2014, 09:08 PM
So looks like Nonis has been a disaster since taking over. Clarkson signing, Bolland trade(2 2nds for a combined 25ish games), non-activity at the deadline.

The Bernier trade looks to be mostly Leiweke.

F*ck, i wish Clarkson was better than he is. So much hype, so little result.

The inactivity at the deadline looks to be the true killer.

soco22
04-06-2014, 09:11 PM
So looks like Nonis has been a disaster since taking over. Clarkson signing, Bolland trade(2 2nds for a combined 25ish games), non-activity at the deadline.

The Bernier trade looks to be mostly Leiweke.

F*ck, i wish Clarkson was better than he is. So much hype, so little result.

The inactivity at the deadline looks to be the true killer.

Clarkson's contract caused for the inactivity...

Disagree about bolland tho. No one could foresee the injury that he had. He was pretty damn good before it.

Leafin'
04-06-2014, 09:15 PM
In hindsight anyways. I was a huge fan of the Bolland trade. Didn't play out in our favor, and looks like we might lose him to UFA.

You win some you lose some, and unless we resign him, we lost the trade. Those picks may never end up anything, but at best it would be a non factor. If Chicago ends up drafting the next Bergeron with either pick, i will burn down the ACC.

Pronger84
04-06-2014, 09:15 PM
So looks like Nonis has been a disaster since taking over. Clarkson signing, Bolland trade(2 2nds for a combined 25ish games), non-activity at the deadline.

The Bernier trade looks to be mostly Leiweke.

F*ck, i wish Clarkson was better than he is. So much hype, so little result.

The inactivity at the deadline looks to be the true killer.

1. The Clarkson signing was by far his hugest **** up, I don't how how you can justify giving a 3rd liner that type of contract, it looks even worse now given how poorly hes preformed, and yes folks Paul freakin Ranger is outscoring him this season

2. To be fair about Bolland- It was a fair valued deal for him, and in Nonis's defense nobody could forsee that freak injury occuring. However the trade looks really bad IF we cannot resign him, then yea we lose assets for nothing. Nonis has two courses to reedeem himself here and its either a) resign Bolland or b) trade him at the draft floor for a pick or prospect, at least he'd be getting something back in return.

3. Signing Raymond to a 1 year/1M deal was pure genuis on his end. For what he payed, Raymond has 18 goals and 45 points excellent for such a cheap signing, a-plus move.

4. Another beef I have with him was using the buyouts on Komi instead of Liles.

5. Him refusing to do **** all at the deadline was BS, I mean there were tons of good players to be had for picks... why he sat on his hands and did nothing I'll never understand, for that alone he should be shown the door.

soco22
04-06-2014, 09:34 PM
In hindsight anyways. I was a huge fan of the Bolland trade. Didn't play out in our favor, and looks like we might lose him to UFA.

You win some you lose some, and unless we resign him, we lost the trade. Those picks may never end up anything, but at best it would be a non factor. If Chicago ends up drafting the next Bergeron with either pick, i will burn down the ACC.

Hate when ppl say that about picks that aren't high up in the draft. What are the odds if we kept the pick we would chose the same guy? And develop that guy in the same manner as the hawks?

Ya, easier with the #2 overall pick, In the kessel deal, to point and see what we gave up. But that far down the draft, it's open season to who we would take. All it is, is we lost an opportunity to steal a decent player out of the draft as we trade a pick.

Leafin'
04-06-2014, 09:47 PM
Obviously kidding, but it sure would add more salt to the wound.