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zeke
03-28-2014, 12:52 PM
We've got 4 games against bottom feeders left that we really should win (fla, cal, wpg, ott), 2 games left against top teams that will be very tough (bos, tb)....and then there's this weekend with 2gms against fellow bubble teams phi and det, that are absolutley huge.

Win both, and we're right back up at the top of the bubble, lose both and we're toast.

In other good news, cbj's bobrovsky is injured.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bj1DXhxIUAADp4X.jpg



Here's the lineups:



Line 1

C T.Bozak (27): 50gms, 17gls, 44pts, 55ht, 38bk, 20:56 (82gms, 28gls, 72pts, 90ht, 62bk) - 48.6fo%
C C.Giroux (25): 72gms, 24gls, 75pts, 82ht, 39bk, 20:36 (82gms, 27gls, 85pts, 93ht, 44bk) - 52.7fo%

W P.Kessel (26): 74gms, 36gls, 77pts, 23ht, 25bk, 20:35 (82gms, 40gls, 85pts, 26ht, 28bk)
W J.Voracek (24): 72gms, 21gls, 54pts, 18ht, 16bk, 17:18 (82gms, 24gls, 62pts, 21ht, 18bk)

W J.VanRyk (24): 72gms, 28gls, 57pts, 106ht, 21bk, 20:56 (82gms, 32gls, 65pts, 121ht, 24bk)
W S.Hartnell (31): 68gms, 19gls, 47pts, 135ht, 38bk, 16:53 (82gms, 23gls, 57pts, 163ht, 46bk)

Line 2

C N.Kadri (23): 70gms, 18gls, 48pts, 136ht, 30bk, 17:35 (82gms, 21gls, 56pts, 159ht, 35bk) - 45.2fo%
C B.Schenn (22): 72gms, 18gls, 39pts, 180ht, 29bk, 15:49 (82gms, 21gls, 44pts, 205ht, 33bk) - 42.9fo%

W J.Lupul (30): 65gms, 21gls, 43pts, 108ht, 30bk, 18:34 (82gms, 27gls, 54pts, 136ht, 38bk)
W W.Simmonds (25): 72gms, 24gls, 54pts, 120ht, 29bk, 16:43 (82gms, 27gls, 62pts, 137ht, 33bk)

W M.Raymond (28): 74gms, 19gls, 43pts, 34ht, 21bk, 17:14 (82gms, 21gls, 48pts, 38ht, 23bk)
W T.McGinn (23): 10gms, 3gls, 3pts, 15ht, 5bk, 12:03 (82gms, 25gls, 25pts, 123ht, 41bk)

Line 3

C D.Bolland (27): 18gms, 6gls, 10pts, 32ht, 9bk, 15:16 (82gms, 27gls, 46pts, 146ht, 41bk) - 43.2fo%
C S.Couturier (21): 72gms, 10gls, 36pts, 58ht, 36bk, 19:09 (82gms, 11gls, 41pts, 66ht, 41bk) - 48.6fo%

W N.Kulemin (27): 62gms, 9gls, 20pts, 133ht, 58bk, 16:22 (82gms, 12gls, 27pts, 176ht, 77bk)
W M.Read (27): 65gms, 20gls, 36pts, 63ht, 44bk, 18:52 (82gms, 25gls, 45pts, 80ht, 56bk)

W D.Clarkson (29): 52gms, 4gls, 10pts, 139ht, 31bk, 15:25 (82gms, 6gls, 16pts, 219ht, 49bk)
W M.Raffl (25): 59gms, 9gls, 21pts, 95ht, 37bk, 12:49 (82gms, 13gls, 29pts, 132ht, 51bk)

Line 4

C J.McClem (30): 73gms, 3gls, 8pts, 131ht, 51bk, 14:53 (82gms, 3gls, 9pts, 147ht, 57bk) - 53.8fo%
C V.Lecavalier (33): 59gms, 15gls, 30pts, 65ht, 18bk, 15:26 (82gms, 21gls, 42pts, 90ht, 25bk) - 44.4fo%

W T.Bodie (28): 39gms, 3gls, 10pts, 52ht, 14bk, 8:01 (82gms, 6gls, 21pts, 109ht, 29bk)
W A.Hall (33): 70gms, 4gls, 6pts, 65ht, 36bk, 9:35 (82gms, 5gls, 7pts, 76ht, 42bk)

W C.Orr (31): 50gms, 0gls, 0pts, 100ht, 8bk, 5:21 (82gms, 0gls, 0pts, 164ht, 13bk)
W Z.Rinaldo (23): 61gms, 1gls, 2pts, 198ht, 10bk, 7:30 (82gms, 1gls, 3pts, 266ht, 13bk)



Pair 1

D D.Phaneuf (28): 72gms, 8gls, 31pts, 207ht, 138bk, 23:51 (82gms, 9gls, 35pts, 236ht, 157bk)
D K.Timonen (38): 69gms, 4gls, 28pts, 69ht, 99bk, 20:34 (82gms, 5gls, 33pts, 82ht, 118bk)

D C.Gunnar (27): 73gms, 3gls, 17pts, 149ht, 166bk, 19:37 (82gms, 3gls, 19pts, 167ht, 187bk)
D B.Coburn (28): 72gms, 5gls, 16pts, 92ht, 99bk, 22:29 (82gms, 6gls, 18pts, 105ht, 113bk)

Pair 2

D J.Gardiner (23): 72gms, 10gls, 25pts, 94ht, 74bk, 20:55 (82gms, 11gls, 29pts, 107ht, 84bk)
D M.Streit (36): 72gms, 9gls, 34pts, 37ht, 97bk, 20:28 (82gms, 10gls, 39pts, 42ht, 111bk)

D C.Franson (26): 71gms, 4gls, 29pts, 254ht, 104bk, 20:59 (82gms, 5gls, 34pts, 293ht, 120bk)
D N.Grossman (28): 71gms, 1gls, 13pts, 170ht, 162bk, 19:06 (82gms, 1gls, 15pts, 196ht, 187bk)

Pair 3

D M.Rielly (19): 65gms, 2gls, 25pts, 86ht, 84bk, 17:38 (82gms, 3gls, 32pts, 109ht, 106bk)
D A.McDonald (27): 73gms, 4gls, 25pts, 64ht, 225bk, 24:44 (82gms, 5gls, 28pts, 72ht, 253bk)

D T.Gleason (30): 48gms, 1gls, 6pts, 141ht, 76bk, 16:55 (82gms, 2gls, 10pts, 241ht, 130bk)
D L.Schenn (24): 69gms, 4gls, 11pts, 224ht, 98bk, 16:33 (82gms, 5gls, 13pts, 266ht, 117bk)



Starting Goalie

G J.Bernier (25): 51gms, 25-17-7, 2.65gaa, 1so, .925sv%
G S.Mason (25): 55gms, 30-17-6, 2.54gaa, 4so, .916sv%

Backup Goalie

G J.Reimer (25): 32gms, 11-13-1, 3.39gaa, 1so, .908sv%
G R.Emery (31): 24gms, 8-10-1, 2.96gaa, 1so, .901sv%



Unavailable

D P.Ranger (29): 48gms, 4gls, 12pts, 104ht, 68bk, 17:27 (82gms, 7gls, 21pts, 178ht, 116bk)

W S.Downie (26): 60gms, 4gls, 24pts, 69ht, 18bk, 14:07 (82gms, 6gls, 32pts, 94ht, 25bk)

Leafyblue
03-28-2014, 01:29 PM
I hate to say it..but I'm more worried about the bottom feeders.

Go Leafs Go!

number17
03-28-2014, 01:33 PM
Take these 2 weekend games, and we're looking good for playoff beginning of next week.

If we lose both, we can get the golf clubs out.

We gotta pickup AT LEAST 1 point tonight.

Make no mistake guys and girls, tonight and tomorrow is OUR PLAYOFF.

MindzEye
03-28-2014, 01:43 PM
Must.****ing.Win


Anyone have the swullet? Or Kessel's grullet? We need mojo.

LeafOfFaith
03-28-2014, 02:15 PM
Yeah, must win for sure. I think lose this one and we're done.

zeke
03-28-2014, 02:18 PM
OP edited for graphical content.

MindzEye
03-28-2014, 02:20 PM
http://replygif.net/i/1169.gif

CRL
03-28-2014, 02:21 PM
you .... bunch of little dreamers :)

Pronger84
03-28-2014, 02:56 PM
As much as their is a part of me that wants the Leafs to make it to the dance this year, a larger part of me doesn't. If the Leafs make it, everyone gets excited and most likely the Leafs are bounced in the 1st round and nothing changes in the off season due to managment thinking this is a good team. I'd rather they fail, this way management (TL, Nonis) recognize changes need to be made, and odds are they will, I think with TL and Nonis in charge the right changes will be made to this team going forward.

By big changes I mean

1. Carlyle being fired
2. Clarkson being brought out
3. Franson being traded.
4. A 2nd line winger with size/snarl being acquired.

Volcanologist
03-28-2014, 03:31 PM
They looked done as of the St. Louis game, but maybe this team has more gumption than they've shown lately. I sure hope so. I feel bad for the guys who have played well this year, some of their teammates have really let them down.

leafman101
03-28-2014, 03:33 PM
If they don't have what it takes to turn this thing back around thats a big problem.

But they've done it in the past. They did it in the playoffs last year. They should at least make it interesting again. They don't have much time though.

Habsy
03-28-2014, 03:44 PM
I'm not one of those Habs fans that relish in Leaf failure so... please whoop the Flyers, I really hate that ****ing team.

Habsy
03-28-2014, 03:45 PM
I'm calling 4-3 Leafers tonight.

ForeverTML
03-28-2014, 03:45 PM
I have a good feeling that they will come out flying tonight. The whole team got lambasted by fans and the media for an atrociously bad performance in the previous game. Any sane human with emotion will respond with intensity and focus, it just has to happen.

BUT, I feel that they will come out waaay too intense in the first that they might run out of gas as the game wears on. Hopefully, we will build up a good lead to protect that.

Leafyblue
03-28-2014, 04:09 PM
I'm calling 4-3 Leafers tonight.

I hope you're right. The world is due a Leafs/Habs playoff series in the near future. :)

CaptainBolduke
03-28-2014, 06:33 PM
I don't like the Flyers either. Would like to see them lose. However, I just don't see the Leafs beating them at home. Could be a fairly easy game for the Flyers.

The one that I don't understand about the Leafs is their lack of identity this season.

ForeverTML
03-28-2014, 07:17 PM
Franson sucks.

ForeverTML
03-28-2014, 07:19 PM
Why the**** was Phaneuf taking the faceoff? What in the **** is going on?

Killer93
03-28-2014, 07:21 PM
Gong show; no words

soco22
03-28-2014, 07:23 PM
Why the**** was Phaneuf taking the faceoff? What in the **** is going on?

5 on 3 and mcsux got thrown out of draw

Killer93
03-28-2014, 07:28 PM
Disallowed Wow

Feyd
03-28-2014, 07:34 PM
I really can't stand Clarkson. He's bad at every aspect of the game. No hockey IQ whatsoever.

Killer93
03-28-2014, 07:35 PM
That last shift was comical for Clarkson; good grief

Feyd
03-28-2014, 07:36 PM
He can't even dump and chase, which is mind boggling given all those years in NJ.

ForeverTML
03-28-2014, 07:37 PM
5 shots on goal for the leafs with 6 min left in the period.

MindzEye
03-28-2014, 07:38 PM
Our 4th line needs to be told to pump the puck on net. Why McClement & Bodie are trying to work into prime scoring position is beyond me. Pump the puck on net and follow it hard, I can't believe that Randy allows this shit from a plug line. Of course, hanging on to the puck turned into 2 flyer transition opportunities. The 4th line should have one objective. Get offensive zone faceoffs.

Leafyblue
03-28-2014, 07:38 PM
Yeah, Clarkson is useless. Hopefully now he will score and make us look silly. I don't mind...really.

Feyd
03-28-2014, 07:41 PM
Given his absolute lack of anything, how did he ever get 30 goals in the NHL? Must have been pucks bouncing in off him while on the top line.

CRL
03-28-2014, 07:44 PM
so what is our record with/without Clarkson?

Feyd
03-28-2014, 07:45 PM
I think Clarkson has played ONE good period all season long. Not even a full game.

If I remember correctly, the Leafs record without Clarkson is very good.

hockeylover
03-28-2014, 07:53 PM
No ****ing heart. This is desperation hockey? Really?

They don't deserve to make it.

CRL
03-28-2014, 07:55 PM
No ****ing heart. This is desperation hockey? Really?

They don't deserve to make it.

Kessel is injured, Toolzak is back to his best no-show

MindzEye
03-28-2014, 08:06 PM
JVR!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FLOZAK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


IT'S ALIIIIIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LeafGm
03-28-2014, 08:08 PM
Bozak >>

Great play on the faceoff/goal, and a big defensive play in the other end.

Leafyblue
03-28-2014, 08:15 PM
Does Kessel have a shoulder injury? It sure looked like he had a hard time reaching up for that puck that went over his head.

rated
03-28-2014, 08:16 PM
Kessel is injured, Toolzak is back to his best no-show

Your face is a toolzak.

Funny though, literally a few minutes after your post and it's all OMG BOZAK YES !

MindzEye
03-28-2014, 08:22 PM
This team is trying to make the playoffs. The one in the first was indifferent.

BeLeafer
03-28-2014, 08:33 PM
http://straightspeak.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/drowning-hands-toolate-allhint.ru_-1024x640.jpg

Feyd
03-28-2014, 08:40 PM
Great officiating.

Killer93
03-28-2014, 08:48 PM
What a joke

Leafyblue
03-28-2014, 08:51 PM
Is this game as slow as I think it is?

Hoss
03-28-2014, 09:13 PM
The Flyers are such sucky dirty players. Reminiscent of the Bruins. Man I hate Hartnell

Killer93
03-28-2014, 09:14 PM
Fat lady is singing

MindzEye
03-28-2014, 09:16 PM
yeah...that's pretty much it for the season kids.


2 epic, late season collapses in 3 seasons...sandwiching a historic 3rd period collapse in a game 7.



aaaaaaaannnd it's not over?

Big Goal Dave

hockeylover
03-28-2014, 09:16 PM
This team should be ashamed of themselves. 7 straight. Epic collapse.

I don't care what the analytics ****s say. This is another animal completely.

rated
03-28-2014, 09:17 PM
Fat lady is singing

choke that ****ing bitch !

MindzEye
03-28-2014, 09:20 PM
Clarkson will score...

On us or for us, I don't know and I figure it's 50/50....but he will, because that's how shit like this happens.

MindzEye
03-28-2014, 09:20 PM
This team should be ashamed of themselves. 7 straight. Epic collapse.

I don't care what the analytics ****s say. This is another animal completely.

Breathe....just breathe

Game isn't over yet.

hockeylover
03-28-2014, 09:21 PM
Breathe....just breathe

Game isn't over yet.

Down in the third period in a must win game after 6 straight regulation losses is something to be upset about in itself.

CH1
03-28-2014, 09:22 PM
Clarkson will score...

On us or for us, I don't know and I figure it's 50/50....but he will, because that's how shit like this happens.

the latest Vegas prop bet

ForeverTML
03-28-2014, 09:22 PM
pitts is leading columbus. shit is happening FOR us and we seem to be happy digging our own grave.

Hoss
03-28-2014, 09:24 PM
They will somehow start skating like gangbusters to tie it up.. but can't keep it up the whole game. WTF...

Also my cable box decided to reboot. and I haven't seen a thing FFS

ForeverTML
03-28-2014, 09:25 PM
heh, had to post this one from hf:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xTWLWtDI8s

Hoss
03-28-2014, 09:25 PM
link to stream or good site to see it??

Killer93
03-28-2014, 09:26 PM
****

MindzEye
03-28-2014, 09:26 PM
Down in the third period in a must win game after 6 straight regulation losses is something to be upset about in itself.

yes, it is.

But it's not over. Just hold your rage


****...until right now

Would the last one out get the lights? Thanks

Feyd
03-28-2014, 09:26 PM
AHL level defensive coverage there.

MindzEye
03-28-2014, 09:26 PM
link to stream or good site to see it??

You don't want to see it

ForeverTML
03-28-2014, 09:27 PM
team's done guys, I turned it off long time ago.

Killer93
03-28-2014, 09:27 PM
Raptors clinch playoffs

Hoss
03-28-2014, 09:30 PM
yeah Raps??

Voracek is a guy I would have loved to see the leafs get, but he's a fixture on the Flyers

Killer93
03-28-2014, 09:30 PM
Hope Dion is hurt: only excuse now

Cojo
03-28-2014, 09:32 PM
What a massive stepback.

Make the playoffs last year and lose in a heartbreaking game 7 to one of the best teams in the league, only thinking it can get better right?

Nope, lets not make the playoffs the next year.

****ing brutal.

Hoss
03-28-2014, 09:33 PM
So who's the coach next year??FFS these guys look AWFUL

WellPlayed
03-28-2014, 09:35 PM
Whats the draft like this year?

Killer93
03-28-2014, 09:36 PM
Carlyle will be gone, Clarkson gone and likely end of Kadri and/or Gardiner. Also dont be shocked if Lupul is dealt

MindzEye
03-28-2014, 09:36 PM
So who's the coach next year??FFS these guys look AWFUL

I'm more worried about philosophy than a name. Needs to be a guy who believes in team speed and proper shape/structure in the defensive zone being the root of your breakout strategy and not 100 foot passes.

No face punchers who can't play hockey either.

Pronger84
03-28-2014, 09:37 PM
Rock bottom, and thank god. Maybe now management can truly realize how problems exist and can go to work in the offseason, I have a tremendous amount of faith in Nonis and TL to truly fix this broken team.

Hoss
03-28-2014, 09:38 PM
Wow... the Flyers went after Phaneuf all night with cheap shots and dirty hits and then he just hits voracek and they call him for Charging??

These refs are ridiculous.

ForeverTML
03-28-2014, 09:39 PM
TL >>

the coaching staff needs to be bleached out. Its incredibly apparent. Oh and toughness and defense too.

Pronger84
03-28-2014, 09:39 PM
Carlyle will be gone, Clarkson gone and likely end of Kadri and/or Gardiner. Also dont be shocked if Lupul is dealt

I think with Rielly being here it makes Gardiner expendable, there isn't anyone here to replace Kadri just yet, I think Nazem stays for now.

MindzEye
03-28-2014, 09:39 PM
Whats the draft like this year?

From what I can see, a lot of intriguing talent in the 10-18 range.

Matrim
03-28-2014, 09:40 PM
Being a Leaf fan sucks sometimes, thought last years game 7 would be the lowest point, but man did they prove me wrong. Might as well lose the rest of the games now and hope for the highest pick possible. Even if they beat Detroit they have almost no chance of making the playoffs now.

CRL
03-28-2014, 09:40 PM
I think with Rielly being here it makes Gardiner expendable, there isn't anyone here to replace Kadri just yet, I think Nazem stays for now.

Are you guys on drugs? Give up Gards?

Pronger84
03-28-2014, 09:41 PM
Are you guys on drugs? Give up Gards?

He's one of our valuable trade commodities outside of Kessel/JVR/Phaneuf/Rielly/Kadri/Bernier.

Killer93
03-28-2014, 09:41 PM
This team blows; so dissapointed and disgusted with the effort and commitment level of this team

The Green Hornet
03-28-2014, 09:42 PM
such a depressing team to be a fan off. down to a hope and a prayer at this point

ForeverTML
03-28-2014, 09:44 PM
draft time....heh

Volcanologist
03-28-2014, 09:45 PM
welp, that's what I thought would happen, was hoping for better but that's the Leafs for you.

A lot of guys are not doing themselves any favours if they want to be on this team next year.

This team is severely lacking in heart and leadership. So much so that a relative bit player like Gleason comes in and looks like a big time warrior by comparison. I've laid off the Dion as captain thing for the most part, but I'm really starting to question any ability to lead, keep the team together/calm them down etc.

Pronger84
03-28-2014, 09:50 PM
That's why I feel a guy like Callahan would be a much needed boost in the arm to this team.

MindzEye
03-28-2014, 09:54 PM
That's why I feel a guy like Callahan would be a much needed boost in the arm to this team.

The Rangers haven't missed his leadership one ****ing bit.

Pronger84
03-28-2014, 09:57 PM
The Rangers haven't missed his leadership one ****ing bit.

Kind of subjective, Rangers have won 5 in a row but also Tampa is 6-0-4 in their past 10 games, the question is how much or little does he factor into both teams being on a roll?

Tampa's record with Callahan: 6-1-4 (.727%)
Rangers record without Callahan: 7-4-1 (.625%)

Callahan's point totals with TB: 11GP-4G-4A-8Pts (over an 82 game season, 60pt pace)

Yes, I did some stats research.

Leafyblue
03-28-2014, 10:00 PM
I heard a rumour that you can play MORE than 82 games. How does that work? :toetap05:

Volcanologist
03-28-2014, 10:02 PM
If you get traded to a team that has played fewer games than the one you got dealt from.

Habsy
03-28-2014, 10:10 PM
Well at least Carlyle will be gone for you guys.

If he isn't I shudder to think at the posts here come October.

Pronger84
03-28-2014, 10:12 PM
Well at least Carlyle will be gone for you guys.

If he isn't I shudder to think at the posts here come October.

I think he's gone, I heard a rumour that Nonis always wanted Eakins for the coaching job but Burke elected Carlyle. Regardless, I don't see Nonis bringing him back given how poorly he's got the Leafs playing and this epic collapse, I just don't think there is any way Nonis can justify bringing him back for another season.

Habsy
03-28-2014, 10:13 PM
Eakins? Really? You may have dodged a bullet there.

Pronger84
03-28-2014, 10:14 PM
Eakins? Really? You may have dodged a bullet there.

Yea thank god. Funny thing is that if Eakins gets the axe in Oil-town, it wouldn't shock me if Nonis hires him here.

MindzEye
03-28-2014, 10:24 PM
Kind of subjective, Rangers have won 5 in a row but also Tampa is 6-0-4 in their past 10 games, the question is how much or little does he factor into both teams being on a roll?

NYR clearly isn't missing him much as MSL has been invisible and they're still winning.


Tampa's record with Callahan: 6-1-4 (.727%)
Rangers record without Callahan: 7-4-1 (.625%)

Callahan's point totals with TB: 11GP-4G-4A-8Pts (over an 82 game season, 60pt pace)

Yes, I did some stats research.

Congrats.


This tampa hot streak would probably have something to do with one of the top 5 players in the league coming back to them after months injured.

MindzEye
03-28-2014, 10:24 PM
Eakins? Really? You may have dodged a bullet there.

Eakins is shit.

Pronger84
03-28-2014, 10:27 PM
NYR clearly isn't missing him much as MSL has been invisible and they're still winning.



Congrats.


This tampa hot streak would probably have something to do with one of the top 5 players in the league coming back to them after months injured.

Agreed, I think Stamkos coming back has played a large factor in their winning streak, however I also do believe Callahan plays a smaller role in their surge as well since being acquired, albeit nowhere near the impact Stammer has had.

TheCountofMonteCristo
03-28-2014, 10:31 PM
If you win tomorrow you are back in

Deckie007
03-28-2014, 10:52 PM
Stop trying to comfort us. Feels unnatural.

worm
03-28-2014, 11:46 PM
if you make the playoffs now it will be both undeserved (7 game losing streak) and deserved (will mean you pretty much won out)

blacksheep
03-29-2014, 12:00 AM
3496

trujaysfan
03-29-2014, 12:57 AM
@ tomorrow nights game.... hopefully my winning record holds out

number17
03-29-2014, 02:02 AM
Seasons over boys.

What a freaking joke. The kind of mistakes the team made in such a crucial game is comical.

Corky27
03-29-2014, 02:10 AM
very very sad. And i mean that in the sad pathetic way. Extremely pathetic.

SundinsTooth
03-29-2014, 08:23 AM
In a way, it's always refreshing to see new and interesting ways to outdo previous years epic collapses. The Leafs are the team that just keep on spitting in your eye. Like peeing out in a windstorm.

Killer93
03-29-2014, 08:26 AM
You know your sucking balls when the Habs posters are coming over to comfort us and make us feel better lol

Leafyblue
03-29-2014, 08:29 AM
So...how many guys do we have playing hurt? And I don't mean butt hurt. Something ain't right.

Wayward DP
03-29-2014, 08:39 AM
Giroux was better than Phil last night. Biggest reason we lost. And our PK.d

Killer93
03-29-2014, 09:05 AM
Phil is hurt right now IMO

BeLeafer
03-29-2014, 09:40 AM
Every team has players playing hurt by this stage of the season.

leafman101
03-29-2014, 09:55 AM
Its becoming pretty clear this team relies too much on Kessel. Whenever he has a slump they can't win. There hasn't been another guy on this team to help carry that load and be an impact player consistently enough.

In terms of stepping up and leading on the ice Phaneuf has had a pretty disappointing year. He was much better last season. And Kadri, Rielly, Gardiner, and JVR just aren't there yet. But good teams all have more than one guy that can lean on consistently.

There is enough talent here that it should come from within, and it did last year (Kadri, Lupul, Phaneuf and Franson), but it just hasn't happened this season.

Wayward DP
03-29-2014, 10:19 AM
Lupul has shown a disappointing inability to be 'the man' this season. For stretches he's played at a level comparable to Phil, but we haven't seen that from him in quite some time.

And yeah, Kadri's not there yet. To be honest I don't think JVR will ever get there. He's a great secondary piece and has a pretty unique skill set, but I cannot see him ever driving a line by himself.

Habsy
03-29-2014, 11:02 AM
The Leafs rely on Kessel like the Habs rely on Price. It's a team game, one guy can't do it every night.

What I don't get though is the Leafs have some nice pieces. They can score like the wind in some games then get colder than a dead witch's tit the next.

I really think the issue is Carlyle and defense. Carlyle obviously has them wound up tighter than a nun's ***** but I'm not sold on their D. On paper it looks fine but they just don't play a team game.

Time and time again I've seen the forwards leave the zone expecting a pass from the D only to have the D pressured and then cough up the puck. Is this the system Carlyle wants? Quick-strike offence? Because if it is, his D personnel can't handle having all three forwards bold the zone the second they possess the puck.

Confidence is obviously shot on the team and in the coach. Management and coaching will more than likely get axed. Coach definitely and management may be able to save their bacon if the Leafs win a few.

LeafGm
03-29-2014, 11:19 AM
Lupul has shown a disappointing inability to be 'the man' this season. For stretches he's played at a level comparable to Phil, but we haven't seen that from him in quite some time.

And yeah, Kadri's not there yet. To be honest I don't think JVR will ever get there. He's a great secondary piece and has a pretty unique skill set, but I cannot see him ever driving a line by himself.
We haven't seen it at all this season, and we didn't see it at all against the Bruins in the playoffs either.

MindzEye
03-29-2014, 12:20 PM
Its becoming pretty clear this team relies too much on Kessel. Whenever he has a slump they can't win. There hasn't been another guy on this team to help carry that load and be an impact player consistently enough.

In terms of stepping up and leading on the ice Phaneuf has had a pretty disappointing year. He was much better last season. And Kadri, Rielly, Gardiner, and JVR just aren't there yet. But good teams all have more than one guy that can lean on consistently.

There is enough talent here that it should come from within, and it did last year (Kadri, Lupul, Phaneuf and Franson), but it just hasn't happened this season.

It's easy to point fingers at Lupul & Kadri as the "secondary scoring" problem, but I think the real problem is how unproductive anything behind Mason Raymond is.

Ignoring Bolland's productivity in the 17 games we've had him for a second, our group of 7-13/14 forwards have combined for about 30 goals total this year.

Seriously. That's Kulemin, Holland, Clarkson, Smith, Bodie, McClement, D'Amigo, & Leivo scoring 30 goals in total...which is bad enough until you realize that Ashton, Orr, McLaren, & Smithson combined for about 830 minutes without a goal at all.

You look at teams sitting in the playoffs and their comparable forwards are in the 50-60+ range for goals scored.

leafman101
03-29-2014, 12:28 PM
Nah, its more than just production. They have scored plenty of goals. Its the consistency of their difference makers.

Kessel is the only guy who has consistently been there. And every single time he has slumped a bit they haven't been able to win. They need more consistency from the guys who are supposed to be difference makers and core players not just secondary scoring.

Last year Kadri, Lupul, Phaneuf and Franson all had a much bigger impact than secondary scoring.

LeafGm
03-29-2014, 12:52 PM
The thing I wonder is if it's time to dump the whole "we're one of the youngest teams in the league" premise we've been operating under for a few years now.

If you go back to the Quinn years, the guys that always came up big for us in the playoffs and the guys that kept slumps from getting out of hand were the 30+ vets. Mats Sundin, Gary Roberts, Steve Thomas, Joe Nieuwendyk, etc.

This team's 30+ "veteran leadership group" consists of Joffrey "Zoolander" Lupul and Jay McSelke.

Blueman
03-29-2014, 02:02 PM
You guys are all wrong. This teams problem is that it doesn't play defence well.

Volcanologist
03-29-2014, 02:06 PM
Defence is by far the bigger problem, but we could definitely use more offence especially from the bottom two lines. The Leafs were definitely looking for scoring at the deadline too as multiple sources reported they were in on Vanek but couldn't do a trade without sending money back.

MindzEye
03-29-2014, 02:13 PM
Nah, its more than just production. They have scored plenty of goals. Its the consistency of their difference makers.

Kessel is the only guy who has consistently been there. And every single time he has slumped a bit they haven't been able to win. They need more consistency from the guys who are supposed to be difference makers and core players not just secondary scoring.

Last year Kadri, Lupul, Phaneuf and Franson all had a much bigger impact than secondary scoring.

All 55-60 point players are inconsistent. They run hot, and they run cold. Their hot runs aren't as hot as elite players and their cold runs are a bit colder. Nobody notices it when you're getting real secondary scoring through out your lineup

This is what the conference playoff teams have received for real secondary offence from outside their top 6. (not including defenders)

Boston - 57 goals
Pittsburgh - 51 goals
Montreal - 63 goals
Tampa - 55 goals
Rangers - 61 goals
Flyers - 48 goals
Jackets - 55 goals
Wings - 58 goals
Caps - 45 goals
Leafs - 37 goals

The problem isn't the "inconsistency" of the guys producing, it's the ineptness of the guys we have supporting them. If it was a tight checking group that were executing a strong defensive system with precision, driving possession, creating offensive zone faceoffs for the top 2 lines, etc...then it's excusable. But being that badly outscored by other teams' depth puts too much pressure on our top 6 to constantly be generating all of the offence...which just isn't reasonable.

For reference, here's the top 6's for those team

Boston - 131
Pittsburgh - 133
Montreal - 104
Tampa - 127
Rangers - 105
Flyers - 129
Jackets - 99
Wings - 107
Caps - 125
Leafs - 150


Yeah...the problem hasn't been our top 6 producers, and this is why I don't agree with the "don't complain about the 4th line" fallacy. One successful teams, everyone, even the lowly 4th liner manages to chip in. On this team though, if Kessel & company doesn't carry us by themselves, we're ****ed. That, is what's broken here and the obvious reflex we're going to see in the media, to blame "secondary" players like Kadri & Lupul is horseshit.

MindzEye
03-29-2014, 02:15 PM
You guys are all wrong. This teams problem is that it doesn't play defence well.

Almost everyone on this team has played defence at an adequate level in the past for other coaches or other teams. The personnel being bad defensively isn't why we allow 35 shots a game.

BeLeafer
03-29-2014, 02:29 PM
The Leafs have been giving up 4 goals per game over the losing skid, while cutting back on shots against.

Goaltending has been decidedly unsatisfactory.

uncus
03-29-2014, 02:32 PM
Almost everyone on this team has played defence at an adequate level in the past for other coaches or other teams. The personnel being bad defensively isn't why we allow 35 shots a game.

Carlyle isnt putting his players in positions to succeed ....
Phaneuf is still left to lug the puck out of the zone on the powerplay even though the guy has problems with this part of the game (his only real play is to drop off the puck for kessel)... Carlyle should have broken up the Phaneuf and Franson combo and replaced franson with either Rielly or Gardiner .... the other two could form the backend of the 2nd PP unit ....
Let Gardiner or Reilly get the puck and wheel with it ... it gives the dmen on the penalty kill fits because these two guys can gain entry so easily and it frees up Kessel from being the main focus by the opps.
The reason Phaneuf is on the PP is to fire that puck ...So fire that friggen puck ... forward comes out to block it, fire it down his throat, he wont be so anxious to block it next time ....jmho

uncus
03-29-2014, 02:36 PM
The Leafs have been giving up 4 goals per game over the losing skid, while cutting back on shots against.

Goaltending has been decidedly unsatisfactory.

True ... and now you have a goaltender who is playing hurt because of the inability by the backup to stop the puck ....
I would dress Reimer tonight on a hunch .... don't let him know till just before the puck drops so he cant think about it .... worried about Berniers groin pull. If the leafs make it into the playoffs, they are going to need Bernier healthy, because if he isn't they wont go very far ... so go with Reimer again and hope he finds that groove and allow bernier to rest his groin......
The next 5 seasons are more important than the next five games ...

leafman101
03-29-2014, 02:48 PM
Again its not a production thing. Hockey is a 200 foot game, and you need your top players to be your best players night in and night out to compete. And thats not just scoring. Whether they are scoring or not you need those guys skating, creating, winning one on one battles and possessing the puck.

The Leafs have had zero problems scoring this year. Scoring just hasn't been an issue at all.

Last year Kadri, Lupul, Phaneuf and Franson were consistent difference makers. This year only Kessel has been. Thats not enough. Anytime he has fallen off a bit the team can't win.

I'm sorry but your top guys not playing like top guys most nights is far more impactful than 3rd and 4th line scoring when you are already a top half scoring team.

GEEMAN
03-29-2014, 03:17 PM
Its becoming pretty clear this team relies too much on Kessel. Whenever he has a slump they can't win. There hasn't been another guy on this team to help carry that load and be an impact player consistently enough.

In terms of stepping up and leading on the ice Phaneuf has had a pretty disappointing year. He was much better last season. And Kadri, Rielly, Gardiner, and JVR just aren't there yet. But good teams all have more than one guy that can lean on consistently.

There is enough talent here that it should come from within, and it did last year (Kadri, Lupul, Phaneuf and Franson), but it just hasn't happened this season.

good post

GEEMAN
03-29-2014, 03:23 PM
Lupul has shown a disappointing inability to be 'the man' this season. For stretches he's played at a level comparable to Phil, but we haven't seen that from him in quite some time.

And yeah, Kadri's not there yet. To be honest I don't think JVR will ever get there. He's a great secondary piece and has a pretty unique skill set, but I cannot see him ever driving a line by himself.

If this is the best JVR is ,whats wrong with that?

Solid cap for a legit 25-30 goal man , tough down low scorer . This year team defense has been your problem all year . I know the Leafs arent built like the Blues to be great defensively but shocked at the same miscues made game in game out .

Volcanologist
03-29-2014, 04:04 PM
JVR should hit 30 goals, there aren't a ton of those in the league anymore.

Pronger84
03-29-2014, 04:05 PM
Almost everyone on this team has played defence at an adequate level in the past for other coaches or other teams. The personnel being bad defensively isn't why we allow 35 shots a game.

Whether or not they were defensively adequate in the past holds no bearing on the present, and when you give up the most amount it usually means you spend more time in your own end chasing the puck then you do in the other teams end creating scoring chances.

This the thing that perplexes me about the Leafs, no matter how many roster changes we go through, no matter how many coaches we go through this team is usually in the bottom 1/3 of the league for goals against, penalty killing and shots against. I'm trying to figure out the common link here and I just can't seem to find a rhyme or reason for the Leafs poor defensive play over the past decade or longer.

Pronger84
03-29-2014, 04:06 PM
JVR should hit 30 goals, there aren't a ton of those in the league anymore.

I'd hang on to JVR, a big bodied guy who has all the tools, plus a cheap cap hit and is only 24... he's a gem.

MindzEye
03-29-2014, 04:24 PM
Whether or not they were defensively adequate in the past holds no bearing on the present,

Sure it does. ****, of course it has baring on the present. If someone scored 30 goals in the past, they're a lot more likely to score 30 goals in the present or future than someone who has never scored 30 goals. If players has been adequate defensively in the past, than odds are, it's not necessarily the fault of the players for a team's poor defensive play.



and when you give up the most amount it usually means you spend more time in your own end chasing the puck then you do in the other teams end creating scoring chances.

Thanks, tips.


This the thing that perplexes me about the Leafs, no matter how many roster changes we go through, no matter how many coaches we go through this team is usually in the bottom 1/3 of the league for goals against, penalty killing and shots against. I'm trying to figure out the common link here and I just can't seem to find a rhyme or reason for the Leafs poor defensive play over the past decade or longer.

It's only killing you because you stop digging there. The reasons have been different with every iteration of the club. The 06-07 Leafs, for example were 7th in the league in shots against. That's a good defensive team...unfortunately though, we received .888% goaltending which caused us to be 25th in goals against.

The following season we were averagish in shots allowed, coming in 17th...but 27th in goals allowed because, drum roll please.... .893% team save percentage. 08/09 was a similar story where we were average in shots allowed, but a .885% had us again in the basement in goals allowed.

This trend continued until 10/11...and was only discontinued whenever James Reimer was in net. The team gave up 2.99 goals per game in total (including Reimer's start), but somehow managed 2.60 per game in front of Reimer. It's that season which shattered the previous narrative about the Toronto defence making it's goalies look bad. The team was so different statistically when Reimer was in net vs Gusto or Giguere. Same defence in front of all of them, but Reimer was letting in a half a goal a game less than Gustavsson, and a quarter of a goal less than Giguere.

11/12 rolls around, Wilson's team slides a bit (tied for 20th in shots against, .7 from 14th)...but the goaltending slides due to Reimer's injury...we're hilarious in Goals Against again.

Cue the Randy Carlyle era and right off the hop our shots against go up over 32 a game but we sky rocket up to 17th in goals against at a decent 2.67 per. We're disorganized and give up a ton of shots, but our goaltending is good enough to float the defence. This year though the bottom fell out of the team defensive play. It's simply never been like this of the time period you're quoting. We're giving up a full 4-5 shots per game more than we were during those other seasons. Shit...we're giving up almost 4 more shots per game than last year's hilariously bad total of 32.3

Pronger84
03-29-2014, 05:16 PM
Sure it does. ****, of course it has baring on the present. If someone scored 30 goals in the past, they're a lot more likely to score 30 goals in the present or future than someone who has never scored 30 goals. If players has been adequate defensively in the past, than odds are, it's not necessarily the fault of the players for a team's poor defensive play.




Thanks, tips.


It's only killing you because you stop digging there. The reasons have been different with every iteration of the club. The 06-07 Leafs, for example were 7th in the league in shots against. That's a good defensive team...unfortunately though, we received .888% goaltending which caused us to be 25th in goals against.

The following season we were averagish in shots allowed, coming in 17th...but 27th in goals allowed because, drum roll please.... .893% team save percentage. 08/09 was a similar story where we were average in shots allowed, but a .885% had us again in the basement in goals allowed.

This trend continued until 10/11...and was only discontinued whenever James Reimer was in net. The team gave up 2.99 goals per game in total (including Reimer's start), but somehow managed 2.60 per game in front of Reimer. It's that season which shattered the previous narrative about the Toronto defence making it's goalies look bad. The team was so different statistically when Reimer was in net vs Gusto or Giguere. Same defence in front of all of them, but Reimer was letting in a half a goal a game less than Gustavsson, and a quarter of a goal less than Giguere.

11/12 rolls around, Wilson's team slides a bit (tied for 20th in shots against, .7 from 14th)...but the goaltending slides due to Reimer's injury...we're hilarious in Goals Against again.

Cue the Randy Carlyle era and right off the hop our shots against go up over 32 a game but we sky rocket up to 17th in goals against at a decent 2.67 per. We're disorganized and give up a ton of shots, but our goaltending is good enough to float the defence. This year though the bottom fell out of the team defensive play. It's simply never been like this of the time period you're quoting. We're giving up a full 4-5 shots per game more than we were during those other seasons. Shit...we're giving up almost 4 more shots per game than last year's hilariously bad total of 32.3

Thanks, haven't had time to research the shot totals against vs the save %, it's interesting it seems when we have average s/a totals we get sup par save % from the goalie, yet when we get above average save %, we get a higher s/a total per game, it seems the goalies far well when faced with more pepper, you've made some very interesting and valid points there. I disagree though with one thing though, the players (and the goalie) are on the ice so generally it's their fault for defensive miscues, missed assignments and goals against, a coach can match lines all he wants and instruct the team all game long but eventually it comes down to excecution from the team.

MindzEye
03-29-2014, 05:30 PM
Shape and structure of a defense has as much to do with missed assignments as the personnel. Now, if a defenders get beat like a mule on the rush, that's on him. If the system calls for the winger to cheat really low to help the defender and it leaves an open point shot that ends up in the back of the net, that's not a defensive miscue, that's systemic.

Pronger84
03-29-2014, 05:38 PM
Shape and structure of a defense has as much to do with missed assignments as the personnel. Now, if a defenders get beat like a mule on the rush, that's on him. If the system calls for the winger to cheat really low to help the defender and it leaves an open point shot that ends up in the back of the net, that's not a defensive miscue, that's systemic.

No denying that, coaching plays a role too in how a team preforms out there to an extent. Take Carlyle for example, I've noticed that when the Leafs are in their own end the forwards skate up to the blueline which forces the defense to force a stretch pass, instead of the forwards coming back to close the gap between the defensemen/forwards for passing lanes, I'm not sure if it's Randy who's instructing them to do that or if the forwards are taking it upon themselves to cheat at the blueline.

I also think though a coach can instruct his players to do things but in the end it comes down to the players exceuting said system out there.

MindzEye
03-29-2014, 06:07 PM
Hey, if you want to believe that players who bought in, and were defensively successful (to varying degrees) in other systems have either forgotten how to, or stopped caring about playing well defensively, that's up to you. It's not like we've been just bad at allowing shots this season, we've been historically abysmal at limiting shots on net.

We're a full shot per game worse than the 2nd worst team at limiting shots since the lockout...nope, not that lockout.....the other lockout. In most seasons being in the 33.5 range is enough to be 30th in the league. We're a full 2.5 shots worse than that. To put that in perspective quickly, 2.5 shots per game is the current difference between the 7th place Calgary Flames, and the 22nd place Carolina Hurricanes....it's a pretty big margin when made relative to the league.

I am a firm believer that shot quality matters a lot when it comes to team defensive play, but there's no way that we're allowing that volume of shots without giving up a higher than average volume of shots from higher leverage ice as well. This is just far too broken for me to hang it on players who have almost to a man, been solid contributing members to team defences much, much better than this at limiting shots.

rated
03-29-2014, 06:14 PM
MindzEye and Pronger84 are the Ron and Don of this board. Now which one is which ?

Pronger84
03-29-2014, 06:30 PM
Hey, if you want to believe that players who bought in, and were defensively successful (to varying degrees) in other systems have either forgotten how to, or stopped caring about playing well defensively, that's up to you. It's not like we've been just bad at allowing shots this season, we've been historically abysmal at limiting shots on net.

We're a full shot per game worse than the 2nd worst team at limiting shots since the lockout...nope, not that lockout.....the other lockout. In most seasons being in the 33.5 range is enough to be 30th in the league. We're a full 2.5 shots worse than that. To put that in perspective quickly, 2.5 shots per game is the current difference between the 7th place Calgary Flames, and the 22nd place Carolina Hurricanes....it's a pretty big margin when made relative to the league.

I am a firm believer that shot quality matters a lot when it comes to team defensive play, but there's no way that we're allowing that volume of shots without giving up a higher than average volume of shots from higher leverage ice as well. This is just far too broken for me to hang it on players who have almost to a man, been solid contributing members to team defences much, much better than this at limiting shots.

I'm in full agreement with you, this is a systematic problem as well as a player one, it goes hand in hand. We give up not just a high shot total but quality ones as well, last year we were a lot better at boxing out the opposition and limiting them to the outside.... this year were giving up a lot of scoring quality shots too which I feel is because we collapse back. It's pretty bad when a team like Edmonton and Buffalo who are abysmal defensive clubs give up less shots then we do, if you ask me it's alarming.

Pronger84
03-29-2014, 06:30 PM
MindzEye and Pronger84 are the Ron and Don of this board. Now which one is which ?

I'm probably Don lol.