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MindzEye
03-29-2014, 10:03 PM
Absolutely abysmal end of the season. We need a shake up, but I wouldn't limit it to the ice.

I'd strongly, strongly consider a GM change. Nonis is a solid caretaker type, but he's never shown the ability to actually build a team in his time and hos historically shit signing of Clarkson gives me no faith that he's the man to make the decisions going forward.

Candidates:

Jim Benning
Paul Fenton
Ron Hextall
Laurence Gilman
Claude Loiselle

aaaand Randy needs to go. I'm not thrilled with the idea of a retread like Laviolette but he's gotta be a candidate

Candidates:

Laviolette
Hunter
Dineen


regarding the lineup, as much as I know people will be reacting emotionally, this thing doesn't need to be gutted. Imo it's most pressing immediate need is a much improved supporting cast. The 2nd most pressing thing it needs is kids like Kadri, Gardiner, Rielly to take the next steps in being consistent, dangerous NHL players.


JVR - Bozak - Kessel
Lupul - Kadri - XXXXX1
XXXXX2 - XXXXX3 - XXXXX4
D'Amigo - XXXXXX5 - Ashton/Broll/Bodie, etc

Phaneuf - XXXXXX6
Rielly/Jake - Gunnarson
Rielly/Jake - Gleason


X1 candidates: Vrbata (UFA), Jagr (UFA), Chris Stewart (trade), Ladd (trade), Byfuglien (trade)...anything over 6'1 210 with a set of hands
X2 candidates: Downie (UFA), Kulemin (UFA), Winnik (UFA),
X3 candidates: Marcel Goc (UFA)
X4 candidates: Kulemin (UFA), Setoguchi (UFA)
X5 candidates: Uncle Leo (UFA)
X6 candidates: Pitkanen (UFA), Edler (trade), Ehrhoff (trade)....any legit top pairing defender on a non shambolic contract


New homes found for Reimer & Franson (preferably to fill the 2nd line hole with Chris Stewart), and Clarkson mercifully (for both sides) bought out.

let the games begin

JackBurton
03-29-2014, 10:13 PM
I can't see Nonis getting fired. Carlye? Yes. I think there's a good chance he's gone.

Stay away from UFA's. They all get so overpaid. Do a trade. Sacrifice the first rounder.

Preston_Mizzi
03-29-2014, 10:14 PM
http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2014/3/10/5492384/david-clarksons-contract-is-maybe-probably-buyout-proof

MindzEye
03-29-2014, 10:15 PM
I can't see Nonis getting fired. Carlye? Yes. I think there's a good chance he's gone.

Stay away from UFA's. They all get so overpaid. Do a trade. Sacrifice the first rounder.

Usually I agree, but there's a lot of guys who slip through the cracks. A guy like Goc for example. Nashville got him for a song 3 years ago. Dude is a seriously slept on 3rd line centre.

MindzEye
03-29-2014, 10:16 PM
http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2014/3/10/5492384/david-clarksons-contract-is-maybe-probably-buyout-proof

I'll let you read it and then come back and tell me what he's wrong about.

Killer93
03-29-2014, 10:17 PM
Kadri will be gone IMO

JackBurton
03-29-2014, 10:17 PM
I'd hire Guy Boucher as coach, dump Franson, let Bolland go, Trade for a solid #2 D-Man.

MindzEye
03-29-2014, 10:18 PM
I'd hire Guy Boucher as coach, dump Franson, let Bolland go, Trade for a solid #2 D-Man.

Giving up our 1st rounder might be a bit of a mistake as well. Solid, deep draft. We'd have to get a really good player in return, who is controllable and youngish for me to give it up. Could easily end up being top 10, sitting 12th overall right now.

Preston_Mizzi
03-29-2014, 10:20 PM
I would trade one of Lupul or JVR. Could get something nice in return, especially for JVR. The top six is just way too horse shit defensively. The d suck, but those guys don't help.

worm
03-29-2014, 10:21 PM
Giving up our 1st rounder might be a bit of a mistake as well. Solid, deep draft. We'd have to get a really good player in return, who is controllable and youngish for me to give it up. Could easily end up being top 10, sitting 12th overall right now.

firs time I have heard that

JackBurton
03-29-2014, 10:22 PM
We could get a Myers with the help of our first.

MindzEye
03-29-2014, 10:23 PM
firs time I have heard that

HL posted the list of kids who have lit shit up offensively in their draft season. Extremely encouraging amount of offensive talent.

MindzEye
03-29-2014, 10:23 PM
We could get a Myers with the help of our first.

There's someone who is young and controllable and worth it. Sure. Sign me up.

The Pacifier.
03-29-2014, 10:24 PM
I would trade one of Lupul or JVR. Could get something nice in return, especially for JVR. The top six is just way too horse shit defensively. The d suck, but those guys don't help.

Luke Schenn Was Traded for JVR.

JackBurton
03-29-2014, 10:24 PM
There's someone who is young and controllable and worth it. Sure. Sign me up.

Yeah, it would have to be someone like that.

CH1
03-29-2014, 10:24 PM
Dale Hunter is the big capo with the London Knights so he would probably demand a decent amount of power in any NHL gig. Some understanding that he would have input on trades, the draft, etc.

MindzEye
03-29-2014, 10:26 PM
I would trade one of Lupul or JVR. Could get something nice in return, especially for JVR. The top six is just way too horse shit defensively. The d suck, but those guys don't help.

I'd trade Lupul long before JVR. I really, really want to see our core with a new coach before I go jettisoning important pieces though. The more I dig into the underlying numbers, the clearer it gets that everyone, to a man, has seen their puck possession numbers bottom out under Randy. Looking at the effectiveness on both sides of the puck we received from our depth players has been ****ing illuminating as well. Our top players were lights out compared to their contemporaries this season. I want to see this group surrounded by quality NHL depth before we go cutting major pieces out of it.

JackBurton
03-29-2014, 10:26 PM
With most of these guys, you arrive at their home with a massive amount of money and they'll take your job.

hockeylover
03-29-2014, 10:26 PM
firs time I have heard that

I posted this in the Prospect Discussion thread but there are 13 forwards slated to go in the first couple rounds who were 1.2+ PPG in their draft year. That seems pretty good to me.

hockeylover
03-29-2014, 10:27 PM
I'd keep Kessel, JVR, Kadri, Rielly, Bernier. Honestly I wouldn't be too broken up about any of the others.

worm
03-29-2014, 10:28 PM
I posted this in the Prospect Discussion thread but there are 13 forwards slated to go in the first couple rounds who were 1.2+ PPG in their draft year. That seems pretty good to me.

Cool.

That does seem pretty good. Just been hearing for quite some time how bad of a draft this was. Normally it takes until May for everyone to say how bad it is.

MindzEye
03-29-2014, 10:29 PM
I'd keep Kessel, JVR, Kadri, Rielly, Bernier. Honestly I wouldn't be too broken up about any of the others.



Next year is an important one for Kadri. I wouldn't be too quick to trade him, but if he doesn't come into camp in top shape (for him...baby steps), I'd start exploring it with other teams a bit more. The talent level is there, the potential is pretty ****ing high, but if the work ethic isn't there, he'll never reach it. Hoping that he goes back to Maximus this summer.

Preston_Mizzi
03-29-2014, 10:29 PM
I'd trade Lupul long before JVR.

So would I, but you're not getting shit for Lupul. I think you could get a very nice piece or two for JVR. They're both guys that have no interest playing defense. They're not good enough offensively to play like that. Lupul was, but he's too busy posing naked and being a vapid piece of shit to keep up his play from recent years.

JackBurton
03-29-2014, 10:30 PM
JVR is not a problem whatsoever. You keep this guy as a core piece. There are many other ways to improve defensively.

Preston_Mizzi
03-29-2014, 10:30 PM
Next year is an important one for Kadri. I wouldn't be too quick to trade him, but if he doesn't come into camp in top shape (for him...baby steps), I'd start exploring it with other teams a bit more. The talent level is there, the potential is pretty ****ing high, but if the work ethic isn't there, he'll never reach it. Hoping that he goes back to Maximus this summer.
The only reason he wasn't with Roberts last season is because the Leafs wouldn't allow him to. I can't see them wavering on that. They are a pretty stupid organization. Right intentions.. they want to win. But they're just dumb people.

Leafyblue
03-29-2014, 10:31 PM
Why would you trade JVR? He has hands and isn't afraid to stand in the blue paint.

Montana
03-29-2014, 10:31 PM
Dale Hunter is the big capo with the London Knights so he would probably demand a decent amount of power in any NHL gig. Some understanding that he would have input on trades, the draft, etc.


If we're going to ask him to cook dinner, we might as well let him shop for some of the groceries.

hockeylover
03-29-2014, 10:32 PM
JVR is not a problem whatsoever. You keep this guy as a core piece. There are many other ways to improve defensively.

Totally agree.

MindzEye
03-29-2014, 10:32 PM
So would I, but you're not getting shit for Lupul. I think you could get a very nice piece or two for JVR. They're both guys that have no interest playing defense. They're not good enough offensively to play like that. Lupul was, but he's too busy posing naked and being a vapid piece of shit to keep up his play from recent years.

Again, I want to see JVR under a new coach before I go writing him off in the defensive side of the ice. You could get a nice piece for him, but he is a nice piece, and I don't know if we've seen his top end. With Kessel, at some point as he matures, we probably do.

CH1
03-29-2014, 10:33 PM
If we're going to ask him to cook dinner, we might as well let him shop for some of the groceries.

I think it's going to start to be a trend with NHL 'star coaches' like Hunter and Patrick Roy. Borrowing a little bit from the NFL model.

MindzEye
03-29-2014, 10:33 PM
If we're going to ask him to cook dinner, we might as well let him shop for some of the groceries.

I think you find your GM first, and then suggest Hunter to him. If the GM is your guy, and he's cool with the level of control Hunter is asking, then pay the man and make it happen. You hire your GM before you hire your coach though. It's gotta be the GM's pick (to a certain degree)

blacksheep
03-29-2014, 10:34 PM
No Hextal for GM. His story is a nightmare, perhaps only overshadowed by Garth Snow.
Dineen would be nice. Hunter, even better, considering he can stay living where he is, and thus, may be more willing.
Agreed on not needing a gutting of the lineup. Just some help beyond our top line.
Franson MUST go, and Clarkson MUST be bought out. Since Reimer has chosen not to try for the job, trade him, Franson and you can throw in Clarkson for good measure, to get a good return.
Bolland can walk. Holland should not be resigned, since we don't know how he will be after being out so long. No sense in throwing big money at him right now.

MindzEye
03-29-2014, 10:34 PM
The only reason he wasn't with Roberts last season is because the Leafs wouldn't allow him to. I can't see them wavering on that. They are a pretty stupid organization. Right intentions.. they want to win. But they're just dumb people.

Hopefully they change their mind. Or Kadri tells them to **** off, he's handling his own off season training.

Montana
03-29-2014, 10:34 PM
Only way you trade JVR imo, if he's one of a couple pieces you're moving for one player that is considerably better......the value he provides on that contract is simply way too good to trade away for someone who is of equal talent at a different position. That's a move you're far more likely to lose on, than win.

blacksheep
03-29-2014, 10:35 PM
I'd keep Kessel, JVR, Kadri, Rielly, Bernier. Honestly I wouldn't be too broken up about any of the others.

I'd be broken up losing Bozak.

CH1
03-29-2014, 10:36 PM
I think you find your GM first, and then suggest Hunter to him. If the GM is your guy, and he's cool with the level of control Hunter is asking, then pay the man and make it happen. You hire your GM before you hire your coach though. It's gotta be the GM's pick (to a certain degree)

Leafs are marquee enough to do things differently. Bring in a GM and coach that are on the same page and have no problem working together.

JackBurton
03-29-2014, 10:36 PM
It would be nice to have Burke as GM. Guy made amazing trades. ****ing organization fires him..

MindzEye
03-29-2014, 10:38 PM
Bolland can walk. Holland should not be resigned, since we don't know how he will be after being out so long. No sense in throwing big money at him right now.


Yeah, no interest in signing Bolland to his UFA demands. Want someone who is a legitimate faceoff presence who produces reasonable offensive rates and is tough to play against.

Preston_Mizzi
03-29-2014, 10:39 PM
Again, I want to see JVR under a new coach before I go writing him off in the defensive side of the ice. You could get a nice piece for him, but he is a nice piece, and I don't know if we've seen his top end. With Kessel, at some point as he matures, we probably do.
Yeah, I'd be on board with that since his trade value won't be dropping anytime soon. At this point though, he's a 30 goal 60 point player playing with Kessel. That's good 1st line production, but not exactly lighting up the world since he gets to play with Kessel and all. Probably more of a 50 point player without the Kunitz-effect. Not to mention he's weak on the boards and weak defensively. I can't really call that a core guy or an untouchable piece. I see that as a guy that has a lot of undeserved trade value. But I'm willing to wait it out too.

JackBurton
03-29-2014, 10:39 PM
We cannot afford Bolland. Stop wasting huge money on supporting, replaceable cast.

worm
03-29-2014, 10:39 PM
I'd keep Kessel, JVR, Kadri, Rielly, Bernier. Honestly I wouldn't be too broken up about any of the others.

I have watched quite a few games lately (or bits and pieces of games).

A few notes from my limited viewing.

Double dion was just terrible. While a lot of people were blaming Reimer they might have missed how horrible he was lately.
Just when I finally started defended him to people.

Not convinced Bernier will be better than Reimer going forward.

There must have been more to the "just okay" thing. Was thinking about it again tonight. Why would Reimer spout off to the media if there wasn''t more to it? Maybe nothing but maybe a bug deal was made about it for a reason.

What is wrong with Lupul? Did JVR steal his PP time, etc?

I think the leafs have too much talent to get outplayed on a consistent basis - not really buying the "type of scoring chances" ... perhaps the team is just dead tired from chasing the puck all season. Didn't really show up last year because of the short season. Just a theory.

Kessel is still awesome but Im not sure that JVR or Bozak can repeat.

Rielly looks great. Gardiner only in spurts without much progression.

Clarkson ... perhaps a new coach can help him become a useful NHLer?

When the season was on the line last year (down to Boston) the team stepped up... nobody did this year.

Did Orr play in the playoffs last year? Do you honestly have nobody better to take his spot?

blacksheep
03-29-2014, 10:43 PM
It would be nice to have Burke as GM. Guy made amazing trades. ****ing organization fires him..

To be more precise, the very day the new ownership of Bell / Rogers took over, he was fired. It was they who did not want him. Not sure why, but I'm guessing it's his abrasive ways.

CaptainBolduke
03-29-2014, 10:44 PM
I posted this in the Prospect Discussion thread but there are 13 forwards slated to go in the first couple rounds who were 1.2+ PPG in their draft year. That seems pretty good to me.

Up until this particular message board everything I've heard, watched and read have indicated a weak draft.

CH1
03-29-2014, 10:45 PM
I'm not impressed with Carlyle at all. Simply no adjustments to the glaring and consistent system breakdowns. I can see Nonis pleading ownership to give the roster (plus changes) another chance with a new tactician at the helm.

Montana
03-29-2014, 10:47 PM
Hiring Burke was one of the wisest moves this franchise made in my lifetime, and firing him was one of the worst.





I'll be bitter about that until the day I die.

worm
03-29-2014, 10:49 PM
Hiring Burke was one of the wisest moves this franchise made in my lifetime, and firing him was one of the worst.





I'll be bitter about that until the day I die.

it appears him and nonis have the same weakness....free agency

of course nonis doesnt appear to have the trading ability

CH1
03-29-2014, 10:49 PM
Hiring Burke was one of the wisest moves this franchise made in my lifetime, and firing him was one of the worst.

I'll be bitter about that until the day I die.

Perhaps, but how would he have prevented this year's breakdown. This is largely his roster and Randy his coach.

hockeylover
03-29-2014, 10:49 PM
Up until this particular message board everything I've heard, watched and read have indicated a weak draft.

Almost every team kept their first rounder for a reason, IMO.

blacksheep
03-29-2014, 10:50 PM
I have watched quite a few games lately (or bits and pieces of games).

A few notes from my limited viewing.

Double dion was just terrible. While a lot of people were blaming Reimer they might have missed how horrible he was lately.
Just when I finally started defended him to people.

Not convinced Bernier will be better than Reimer going forward.

There must have been more to the "just okay" thing. Was thinking about it again tonight. Why would Reimer spout off to the media if there wasn''t more to it? Maybe nothing but maybe a bug deal was made about it for a reason.

What is wrong with Lupul? Did JVR steal his PP time, etc?

I think the leafs have too much talent to get outplayed on a consistent basis - not really buying the "type of scoring chances" ... perhaps the team is just dead tired from chasing the puck all season. Didn't really show up last year because of the short season. Just a theory.

Kessel is still awesome but Im not sure that JVR or Bozak can repeat.

Rielly looks great. Gardiner only in spurts without much progression.

Clarkson ... perhaps a new coach can help him become a useful NHLer?

When the season was on the line last year (down to Boston) the team stepped up... nobody did this year.

Did Orr play in the playoffs last year? Do you honestly have nobody better to take his spot?

heh. Reimer's going to light it up next year - on some other team. How's Scrivens? heh. I truly believe Reimer chose to not give a fvck anymore because of Carlyle. He'll move on to another team, and Bernier will be trailing him in numbers.
Not that I dislike Bernier. He's played like shit these last three games, but he's injured, so I'm not down on him. I am pissed, however, that Carlyle clearly favoured Bernier, instead of splitting the two more evenly. After the way Reimer single-handedly got us into the playoffs, then played on his head to erase a 3-1 games deficit with Boston in the first round, he deserved to get a better chance to play this season.
But he's made his mind up to go now, so there's no chance of him wanting to stay, even if Carlyle goes.
Which he should. His "system" is shit.

hockeylover
03-29-2014, 10:52 PM
Not convinced Bernier will be better than Reimer going forward.

Not sure I agree with this either. What else could Bernier have done this season to prove himself to you?

blacksheep
03-29-2014, 10:53 PM
I'm not impressed with Carlyle at all. Simply no adjustments to the glaring and consistent system breakdowns. I can see Nonis pleading ownership to give the roster (plus changes) another chance with a new tactician at the helm.

Absolutely. He just kept sticking to the same "system," and just shifted guys around to try to get it to work. Instead of coaching the guys he had, he tried to fit them into his ways like puzzle pieces.
So glad Franson was a lock for top PP time. LOL "Thirty of thirty coaches" would NOT have agreed.

worm
03-29-2014, 10:59 PM
Not sure I agree with this either. What else could Bernier have done this season to prove himself to you?

Nothing....but what more could Reimer have done last year?

Montana
03-29-2014, 11:05 PM
Perhaps, but how would he have prevented this year's breakdown. This is largely his roster and Randy his coach.


Not signing Clarkson to that enormous contract and possibly using those funds elsewhere, and/or having dealt for a guy like Bouwmeester when he was available, which would have been a very very very Burke-esque deal to make......he lives for buying low on top end talent like that.

hockeylover
03-29-2014, 11:16 PM
Nothing....but what more could Reimer have done last year?

The workload was pretty crazy. 741 more shots...

LeafOfFaith
03-29-2014, 11:24 PM
You keep the core in place, you gut the bottom 6 with the exception of Kulemin.

You send out Franson and bring in a defensive dman who hits and does it all.

You send Reimer out in the same deal and bring in/up a backup goalie so no more controversy next year.

You fire Carlyle and replace him with someone younger and with some fire.

blacksheep
03-29-2014, 11:30 PM
You keep the core in place, you gut the bottom 6 with the exception of Kulemin.

You send out Franson and bring in a defensive dman who hits and does it all.

You send Reimer out in the same deal and bring in/up a backup goalie so no more controversy next year.

You fire Carlyle and replace him with someone younger and with some fire.

You sound pissed. It couldn't be because the Leafs threw away their season in 8 games, could it? lol!
Out:
Reimer (by his own choice)
Franson
Bolland
Holland
Orr
Clarkson
most especially Randy Carlyle and his crew
Staying here:
Kessel
Bozak
JVR
Lupul (unless a great trade can be made)
Kadri
Bodie
McSelke (fourth line / PK)
Raymond
Double Dion
Reilly
Gunnar
Gardiner
Gleason

Pronger84
03-29-2014, 11:30 PM
To be more precise, the very day the new ownership of Bell / Rogers took over, he was fired. It was they who did not want him. Not sure why, but I'm guessing it's his abrasive ways.

Easy answer- Burke has too big of an ego (not necessairly a bad thing) but Rogers/Bell wanted a "yes man" as GM/President of Hockey Operations and Burke wasn't that type, he's more of a take charge/hands on guy who can get overly emotional at times, whereas Nonis is a lot more laid back and willing to take orders from his superiors without any backtalk... that is IMO why Burke was canned.

blacksheep
03-29-2014, 11:35 PM
Easy answer- Burke has too big of an ego (not necessairly a bad thing) but Rogers/Bell wanted a "yes man" as GM/President of Hockey Operations and Burke wasn't that type, he's more of a take charge/hands on guy who can get overly emotional at times, whereas Nonis is a lot more laid back and willing to take orders from his superiors without any backtalk... that is IMO why Burke was canned.

So do you think Bell / Rogers wanted Clarkson at over $5M?? No playoffs (and hence, much less profits)?

LeafOfFaith
03-29-2014, 11:38 PM
Regarding McClement, I didn't see him have a very good year at all. I'd still be fine bringing him back if there's nothing better out there, but he has to be better in his role.

I felt he single-handedly took our PK to the top last year. But he was mostly ineffective this year.

Pronger84
03-29-2014, 11:39 PM
So do you think Bell / Rogers wanted Clarkson at over $5M?? No playoffs (and hence, much less profits)?

I'm not sure but Clarkson did look decent in NJ though I could see why MLSE would want a player like that but man has he stunk up the joint since arriving here.

blacksheep
03-29-2014, 11:42 PM
I'm not sure but Clarkson did look decent in NJ though I could see why MLSE would want a player like that but man has he stunk up the joint since arriving here.

But that's just it: Clarkson sucked in NJ also.

Pronger84
03-29-2014, 11:42 PM
Regarding McClement, I didn't see him have a very good year at all. I'd still be fine bringing him back if there's nothing better out there, but he has to be better in his role.

I felt he single-handedly took our PK to the top last year. But he was mostly ineffective this year.

I don't think you can soley blame Mcselke for our awful PK, the strategy looks a lot different out there this season then it did last. Last year's PK unit was aggressive and we challenged the point shooters and didn't give teams time/space to set up, this year were more content collapsing back in front of Bernier/Reimer, allowing teams to set up their PP from the point and get their attacks going, it's a sysematic change and one that Mcselke can't be faulted for.

Deckie007
03-29-2014, 11:44 PM
You sound pissed. It couldn't be because the Leafs threw away their season in 8 games, could it? lol!
Out:
Reimer (by his own choice)
Franson
Bolland
Holland
Orr
Clarkson
most especially Randy Carlyle and his crew
Staying here:
Kessel
Bozak
JVR
Lupul (unless a great trade can be made)
Kadri
Bodie
McSelke (fourth line / PK)
Raymond
Double Dion
Reilly
Gunnar
Gardiner
Gleason

So...the only thing wrong with our roster is the coaching staff, two players who've barely played, Franson, Clarkson, Reimer, and the non-face-puncher-face puncher Orr. Okay then.

Pronger84
03-29-2014, 11:44 PM
But that's just it: Clarkson sucked in NJ also.

He played a lot better then he has been here, and he did put up two 30 goal seasons. I'm not defending the signing or the contract amount in any way, I'm just saying I can understand why Nonis/MLSE would be intrigued by him.

worm
03-29-2014, 11:45 PM
He played a lot better then he has been here, and he did put up two 30 goal seasons. I'm not defending the signing or the contract amount in any way, I'm just saying I can understand why Nonis/MLSE would be intrigued by him.

he has 1 30 goal season

well....two if you count his one other season.....in the OHL

blacksheep
03-29-2014, 11:47 PM
So...the only thing wrong with our roster is the coaching staff, two players who've barely played, Franson, Clarkson, Reimer, and the non-face-puncher-face puncher Orr. Okay then.

With very little change to this roster, we forced a game seven in round one last season.
Yeah, I think the coach is the biggest reason, to be sure.

blacksheep
03-29-2014, 11:50 PM
He played a lot better then he has been here, and he did put up two 30 goal seasons. I'm not defending the signing or the contract amount in any way, I'm just saying I can understand why Nonis/MLSE would be intrigued by him.

The funny part is in the Carlyle firing thread, you thought I was exonerating Nonis for this signing. It never should have been done from the beginning. I never liked Clarkson, and after this season, I like him even less. I wouldn't wish him on the Marlies, either. Give him a job next to Bitter Healey on CBC, and the two of them can whine about the Leafs shafting them all day long.

JohnnyHolmes
03-30-2014, 12:30 AM
Next year is an important one for Kadri. I wouldn't be too quick to trade him, but if he doesn't come into camp in top shape (for him...baby steps), I'd start exploring it with other teams a bit more. The talent level is there, the potential is pretty ****ing high, but if the work ethic isn't there, he'll never reach it. Hoping that he goes back to Maximus this summer.

Roberts seems to be on the outs with a lot of NHL teams because of his training methods.

I was thinking that some team should hire him as a conditioning coach, but then it occurred to me that he could make far more money, and call his own shots just doing what he is doing.

The guy is a fitness freak. The fact that he ever came back from his neck injury is a testament to that, and when Spezza spent a summer training with him, I thought he'd finally taken his career seriously.

That's what training with Roberts is all about. Commitment and sacrifice. It's not fun training and eating the way those guys do, but it definitely pays off.

If Naz does go back, I'd say it's a good reflection on his character.

When you are really good at something, it's not that uncommon to not work as hard as others do...because you don't need to. But if you take that talent and combine in with a Roberts like work ethic, you are going to end up with a hell of a player.

JohnnyHolmes
03-30-2014, 12:33 AM
The funny part is in the Carlyle firing thread, you thought I was exonerating Nonis for this signing. It never should have been done from the beginning. I never liked Clarkson, and after this season, I like him even less. I wouldn't wish him on the Marlies, either. Give him a job next to Bitter Healey on CBC, and the two of them can whine about the Leafs shafting them all day long.

Healey is lucky he ever played in the NHL at all. He should be happy as **** to even have that CBC job, let alone whatever he saved plus an NHL pension.

Volcanologist
03-30-2014, 12:38 AM
I'd keep Kessel, JVR, Kadri, Rielly, Bernier. Honestly I wouldn't be too broken up about any of the others.

Basically this.

As for people pining for Burke, honestly it's the exact same staff other than him -- which produced a group of players that has now failed catastrophically 3 years in a row. We've got the same truculent wastes of 1st round picks happening, and the same pro scouts recommending the same gritty bust UFAs that keep killing our cap space. I don't see what Nonis is doing any differently than Burke would by picking up guys like Bolland and Clarkson, those two are totally Burke players.

Having said that, my gut feel is I don't think Nonis will be fired. Fair or not, and you could certainly make an argument either way, Carlyle's probably gone at this point. That's the way of sports.

I think we're fine in net with Bernier from what I've seen under what would be very trying circumstances for any goalie. It was an absolute war zone in the Leaf net this season and I thought Bernier responded admirably to the pressure. Reimer will be moved this offseason, probably as part of a package as he's not worth much on his own at this point.

The defence needs nothing less than 3 or 4 of the top 6 changed. The sheer volume of unforced turnovers by guys like Franson and Gardiner this season is mindboggling and when you get two guys like that on the ice on the same 5 man unit, and throw a raw rook into the mix to boot, the results are often disastrous. I have never seen a team struggle so badly to make a simple play out of the zone, it's absolutely ridiculous and the Leafs need to vastly improve their aggressiveness and discipline without the puck in their own end too. They're way too passive and lose far too many 1 on 1 battles. All that points to a significant change in personnel, as they clearly don't have the tools in the toolbox right now.

At forward I think anything past the Kessel/JVR combination, which I think we're going to stick with, is fair game. Any upgrade of size, skill, nasty, and experience is welcome at either wing or centre. No matter who the coach is, the Leafs are going to need a forward group that is a lot tougher and more willing to separate opponent from puck in all zones than we have now. I'm not sure what they'll do with Bolland, but although I like the guy and we need leadership, he isn't a good use of 4.5-5+ mill. Kadri has been ok offensively, but certainly not what he was in the shortened season....let's hope Bozak doesn't fall into that category too. Are Kadri, Bozak and Lupul 50 point second liners or are they something more? They've all now played for varying stretches as either one, which makes it tough to know what you can really count on going in to next year. Nonis is aware of this, obviously, as we were heavily in on Tomas Vanek at the deadline but couldn't pull it off due to the cap.

I think given the state of our farm system, with no star talent waiting to step in, we're going to have to clear the decks to an extent and take on money to get better next year and build on the few good pieces we do have. Not by free agency, but by finding situations(like E. Staal in Carolina potentially, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Calgary, Buffalo, Islanders) where teams are probably wanting to make significant changes and may make major pieces available that ordinarily wouldn't be.

Habsy
03-30-2014, 12:38 AM
I can't see Nonis getting fired. Carlye? Yes. I think there's a good chance he's gone.

Stay away from UFA's. They all get so overpaid. Do a trade. Sacrifice the first rounder.

If the leafs continue this inexplicable losing streak Nonis will be canned. There is no way the Leafs brass can show reason to retain him. He decided to stand pat at deadline and his team subsequently entered freefall. Nobody in their right mind would retain him.

Carlyle is walking dead.

leafman101
03-30-2014, 12:58 AM
Carlyle has to be fired. There is no way around it. Its not working and that is way easier than getting rid of all of the players.

Spott, Dineen, Boucher, Hunter, possibly Trotz. Anyone really.

Wouldn't be opposed to firing Nonis either. As for the rest they need some veteran leadership brought in.

Corky27
03-30-2014, 01:01 AM
Maybe it just feels like it but this really feels like the worst season i've ever seen. Last year was rough but there was a silver lining ...... This is just disgraceful.

Habsy
03-30-2014, 01:05 AM
Maybe it just feels like it but this really feels like the worst season i've ever seen. Last year was rough but there was a silver lining ...... This is just disgraceful.

Not the first time the Leafs have collapsed down the stretch. They've sort of wrote the book on it.

Pronger84
03-30-2014, 01:17 AM
Basically this.

As for people pining for Burke, honestly it's the exact same staff other than him -- which produced a group of players that has now failed catastrophically 3 years in a row. We've got the same truculent wastes of 1st round picks happening, and the same pro scouts recommending the same gritty bust UFAs that keep killing our cap space. I don't see what Nonis is doing any differently than Burke would by picking up guys like Bolland and Clarkson, those two are totally Burke players.

Having said that, my gut feel is I don't think Nonis will be fired. Fair or not, and you could certainly make an argument either way, Carlyle's probably gone at this point. That's the way of sports.

I think we're fine in net with Bernier from what I've seen under what would be very trying circumstances for any goalie. It was an absolute war zone in the Leaf net this season and I thought Bernier responded admirably to the pressure. Reimer will be moved this offseason, probably as part of a package as he's not worth much on his own at this point.

The defence needs nothing less than 3 or 4 of the top 6 changed. The sheer volume of unforced turnovers by guys like Franson and Gardiner this season is mindboggling and when you get two guys like that on the ice on the same 5 man unit, and throw a raw rook into the mix to boot, the results are often disastrous. I have never seen a team struggle so badly to make a simple play out of the zone, it's absolutely ridiculous and the Leafs need to vastly improve their aggressiveness and discipline without the puck in their own end too. They're way too passive and lose far too many 1 on 1 battles. All that points to a significant change in personnel, as they clearly don't have the tools in the toolbox right now.

At forward I think anything past the Kessel/JVR combination, which I think we're going to stick with, is fair game. Any upgrade of size, skill, nasty, and experience is welcome at either wing or centre. No matter who the coach is, the Leafs are going to need a forward group that is a lot tougher and more willing to separate opponent from puck in all zones than we have now. I'm not sure what they'll do with Bolland, but although I like the guy and we need leadership, he isn't a good use of 4.5-5+ mill. Kadri has been ok offensively, but certainly not what he was in the shortened season....let's hope Bozak doesn't fall into that category too. Are Kadri, Bozak and Lupul 50 point second liners or are they something more? They've all now played for varying stretches as either one, which makes it tough to know what you can really count on going in to next year. Nonis is aware of this, obviously, as we were heavily in on Tomas Vanek at the deadline but couldn't pull it off due to the cap.

I think given the state of our farm system, with no star talent waiting to step in, we're going to have to clear the decks to an extent and take on money to get better next year and build on the few good pieces we do have. Not by free agency, but by finding situations(like E. Staal in Carolina potentially, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Calgary, Buffalo, Islanders) where teams are probably wanting to make significant changes and may make major pieces available that ordinarily wouldn't be.

This is the best and most unbiased post I have read in here from any poster, I couldn't have said those things any better that's sure. I think a lot of big changes are going to be made from the front office all the way down to the 4th line, management has seen how bad this team has fallen apart, no way do they sit back and bring this same team back next season, I for one cannot wait to see what unfolds between mid april and opening game next season.

Corky27
03-30-2014, 01:56 AM
Not the first time the Leafs have collapsed down the stretch. They've sort of wrote the book on it.

I'm 27 years old and I honestly feel this is the biggest let down i've seen. Ever.

mbow30
03-30-2014, 02:54 AM
if i'm gm i'm floating jvr's name to see if i can capitalize on his totals this year.

he's a guy who might be useless past his mid-20s because, once he starts losing speed, he could beocme totally useless.

and, even in the interim, he has some pretty serious limitations.

Pronger84
03-30-2014, 04:09 AM
if i'm gm i'm floating jvr's name to see if i can capitalize on his totals this year.

he's a guy who might be useless past his mid-20s because, once he starts losing speed, he could beocme totally useless.

and, even in the interim, he has some pretty serious limitations.

Interesting... he would make excellent trade bait but on the other hand he oozes size/speed/skill he's the type of player this team needs and should keep. Why do you think he'll slow down past his mid 20's? Most players peak around 27-32, yet for some reason you think he's tapers off... I don't get it.

Pronger84
03-30-2014, 04:10 AM
I'm 27 years old and I honestly feel this is the biggest let down i've seen. Ever.

I've been a Leafs fan since 92', I've seen tons of them as well but this one I think takes the cake as well.

Pronger84
03-30-2014, 04:12 AM
If the leafs continue this inexplicable losing streak Nonis will be canned. There is no way the Leafs brass can show reason to retain him. He decided to stand pat at deadline and his team subsequently entered freefall. Nobody in their right mind would retain him.

Carlyle is walking dead.

If the Leafs hold true to typical Leafs fashion they'll go on a 6 game winning streak, they'll be in a spot in Game 82 only to have a team like Washington usurp us the next day with their game in hand. Typical.... Leafs always tease and the fans always fall for it... every time. I'm not going to lie I'm a hardcore fan and always will be but I know how the Leafs work.

BeLeafer
03-30-2014, 07:07 AM
Nonis gets a mulligan, as he's done some good but really made a couple of ugly mistakes. The first was signing Clarkson to that incredibly stupid deal, the second was going after Bernier when there was utterly no need to chase a starting goaltender (or even a backup, for that matter).

The results for those moves are in and they decidedly suck shit.

Very ambivalent about giving Nonis a mulligan, as these moves were pretty deadly to the season and totally avoidable. He'll get another shot with a new coach, I suspect.

On that note, it's hard to make judgement about players when they're being as poorly coached as this team has been this season. A good coach can manage the various weaknesses of players much better than Randy has. Moreover, most of these guys are still young, so really hard to determine just what kind of players they are when they are being coached so poorly.

The one area that has, regardless of coaching, shown itself to be a major weakness of this team is leadership. Phaneuf and Lupul stand out as big failures on this front. Not sure how you fix that without making a significant trade. This team needs the stabilizing effect of a few solid veterans.

This team has a massive choke problem. A coach might be able to fix that, but I suspect there's a need to make a few personnel changes. Need a few players with steel balls added to the mix.

Start with bringing back Leo.

MyNameIsJonas
03-30-2014, 07:11 AM
From an outside perspective. Carlyle is done, Nonis could be, and the only safe players ought to be Phaneuf, Kessel, Rielly, Bernier and Bozak. Anyone else could go in the right trade

leafman101
03-30-2014, 07:36 AM
You can't blame Nonis for Bernier. He has been one of the best goalies in the NHL this year, and saved our season. They would have been out of it a long time ago without Bernier. And he has played at a high level for 50+ games which is something Reimer and Scrivens haven't done at any level. He looks like a legit starting goalie. And they didn't give up much, so that wasn't a mistake.

Clarkson was a bad enough mistake to show me that you just don't have a good understanding of this team, the cap, or players in general though. That and Nonis never had to interview or compete for the job in the first place. They just fired Burke at an awkward time and Nonis was already there.

MindzEye
03-30-2014, 08:04 AM
Roberts seems to be on the outs with a lot of NHL teams because of his training methods.

I was thinking that some team should hire him as a conditioning coach, but then it occurred to me that he could make far more money, and call his own shots just doing what he is doing.

The guy is a fitness freak. The fact that he ever came back from his neck injury is a testament to that, and when Spezza spent a summer training with him, I thought he'd finally taken his career seriously.

That's what training with Roberts is all about. Commitment and sacrifice. It's not fun training and eating the way those guys do, but it definitely pays off.

If Naz does go back, I'd say it's a good reflection on his character.

When you are really good at something, it's not that uncommon to not work as hard as others do...because you don't need to. But if you take that talent and combine in with a Roberts like work ethic, you are going to end up with a hell of a player.

I'm wondering why he's on the outs with so many NHL clubs when his clients seem to be borderline superhuman. James Neal exploded after his conversion to the Roberts way of life, Stamkos is in such good shape that he's coming back from season ending injuries a month or two ahead of schedule and barely missing a beat. Kadri went for one summer and progressed from enigmatic youngster to the break out story of the year.

I wonder what is going on that NHL clubs seem to be avoiding the guy.

Volcanologist
03-30-2014, 08:07 AM
This year has done nothing but show that Reimer needed to be replaced as starter. The guy does not seem to have it mentally. Nonis was bang on and interestingly this was one case where he diverged sharply from Burke, as we later found that LA had been talking trade with the Leafs since the beginning of that season.

I do think Nonis will get another year, but I would not cry if Leiweke cleaned house. As I said at the time of Burke's firing, if you claim to be unhappy with the results of the team then leaving the entire organization sans Burke intact didn't make any sense.

uncus
03-30-2014, 08:50 AM
I had a dream ......lol
First, we trade Phaneuf, Clarkson and a third to Edmonton for RNH ... expecting more of a return? wont happen because of the money they are taking on.
Secondly, kadri, Franson and Reimer to Buffalo for Myers and Stewart.
Sign MacDonald, Goc and Downie.

JVR Bozak Kessel
Lupul RNH Stewart
Downie Goc Ashton
D`Amigo Leo Broll

Myers MacDonald
Reilly Gunnerson
Jake Gleason
Extra dman/Heavyweight if needed Engelland (can be had for a song ufa).

Bernier
Emery

uncus
03-30-2014, 08:53 AM
I'm wondering why he's on the outs with so many NHL clubs when his clients seem to be borderline superhuman. James Neal exploded after his conversion to the Roberts way of life, Stamkos is in such good shape that he's coming back from season ending injuries a month or two ahead of schedule and barely missing a beat. Kadri went for one summer and progressed from enigmatic youngster to the break out story of the year.

I wonder what is going on that NHL clubs seem to be avoiding the guy.

To quote your long lost buddy ... Teeds "they want Lemmings not leaders" Maybe his views differ from the teams medical and training staff .... he has results, they have theories!

uncus
03-30-2014, 08:55 AM
You can't blame Nonis for Bernier. Clarkson was a big enough mistake to show me that you just don't have a good understanding of this team, the cap, or players in general though. That and Nonis never had to interview or compete for the job in the first place. They just fired Burke at an awkward time and Nonis was already there.


The CAP .... that is a really big reason why he should be gone ..... They missed out on Vanek because of the cap situation.

leafman101
03-30-2014, 08:56 AM
Who knows what is actually available or not, but if the Canes are even considering trading Staal you have to make that happen. I think Rielly, Kessel, Phaneuf and Bernier are the only guys I wouldn't trade.

ForeverTML
03-30-2014, 08:58 AM
I really am not confident with Nonis at the helm - which is highly likely as he just signed an extension. He seems like a guy who likes the 'safe' route which is okay in some respects but when you need him to make a goddamn bold move, you just can't count on him I think.

Signing lupul, bozak, kessel, phanuef and he who shall not be named to long term deals, it seems like he's created an aura of comfort with these guaranteed contracts.
And honestly other than reilly and gards I think our defense needs massive overhaul. Maybe brennan and macwilliam can make it?

uncus
03-30-2014, 08:59 AM
was just thinking ... did kessel make Lupul look better than what he really is? Is he doing the same with JVR? Same thing for Bozak?

uncus
03-30-2014, 09:02 AM
Who knows what is actually available or not, but if the Canes are even considering trading Staal you have to make that happen. I think Rielly, Kessel, Phaneuf and Bernier are the only guys I wouldn't trade.

For me Kessel, Rielly, Bernier and the first rounder for the draft (unless the leafs sign some amazing RFA) are the only untouchables.
I remember how badly Phaneuf changed in the forst 2 years of his last contract . maybe a contract player

CTheBigPicture
03-30-2014, 09:04 AM
Hockey gods owe us a win in the lottery. They really do

Pronger84
03-30-2014, 09:08 AM
I really am not confident with Nonis at the helm - which is highly likely as he just signed an extension. He seems like a guy who likes the 'safe' route which is okay in some respects but when you need him to make a goddamn bold move, you just can't count on him I think.

Signing lupul, bozak, kessel, phanuef and he who shall not be named to long term deals, it seems like he's created an aura of comfort with these guaranteed contracts.
And honestly other than reilly and gards I think our defense needs massive overhaul. Maybe brennan and macwilliam can make it?

1. Pretty sure it was Burke who signed Lupul, not Nonis
2. Bozak is putting up near a 70 point pace, even if he can play at 60pts for the next few seasons his contract looks like a bargain
3. Kessel is an elite winger, Nonis got him for market value
4. No issue with the Phaneuf contract either

At this point, outside of our core of JVR/Kessel/Phaneuf/Rielly/Bernier, Gardiner is one of our best trade danglers if you want to improve the squad significantly then you have to party with a guy like him and at this point given how shitty the Leafs have proven themselves IMO its the right option to package Gardiner and a prospect for help up front.

uncus
03-30-2014, 09:19 AM
1. Pretty sure it was Burke who signed Lupul, not Nonis
2. Bozak is putting up near a 70 point pace, even if he can play at 60pts for the next few seasons his contract looks like a bargain
3. Kessel is an elite winger, Nonis got him for market value
4. No issue with the Phaneuf contract either

At this point, outside of our core of JVR/Kessel/Phaneuf/Rielly/Bernier, Gardiner is one of our best trade danglers if you want to improve the squad significantly then you have to party with a guy like him and at this point given how shitty the Leafs have proven themselves IMO its the right option to package Gardiner and a prospect for help up front.

IMHO I couldn't disagree more .... Gardiner is going to be worth the wait. Are the leafs going to win the Stanley cup next year ... highly unlikely. So why not hold onto Gardiner and see how he does with another coach .... hell, bring in Raymond Bourque as a Defenceman coach for Rielly and Gardiner or even a Larry Robinson (see what his contract status is with the sharks). The facts are that Gardiner will always fetch a good return but if we trade him now that return may never ever match what Gardiner may do in the future.
And as someone else mentioned ... the Gods do owe the leafs at least a tickle of good fortune .... number one position at the draft the TML lol

LeafGm
03-30-2014, 09:28 AM
Who knows what is actually available or not, but if the Canes are even considering trading Staal you have to make that happen. I think Rielly, Kessel, Phaneuf and Bernier are the only guys I wouldn't trade.
If it is true, they should be all over it. We have a lot of key pieces that are worth keeping, but I'm no longer willing to accept that this is just a young team going through growing pains. This team, for three years in a row now, has demonstrated an ability to totally collapse that is almost unprecedented in NHL history. They need a major shake-up to the core of this team this summer, and trading for Eric Staal (or maybe even both Staals, depending how much salary the 'Canes are looking to dump) seems like a good way to go about that if it is in fact an option.

And for that trade, or in general this summer, anybody except Kessel, JVR, Bozak, Rielly or Bernier should be in play. I'm tempted to include Gardiner in that group as well, but if he's the piece they need to give up to get something really good, I could live with it.

On the management and coaching side, I'd also be fine with totally cleaning house. Nonis has made some good moves, but demonstrated a fatal lack of judgement when he signed the Clarkson deal, and aside from the Luongo deal, he hasn't really done much in his career as a GM to show that he's capable of making big, ballsy trades.

mbow30
03-30-2014, 09:40 AM
losing bozak or jvr would be a hangup to trading for eric staal?

LeafGm
03-30-2014, 09:43 AM
losing bozak or jvr would be a hangup to trading for eric staal?
Those are just the guys I would like to see us keep, but anyone's tradeable in the right deal.

If Yzerman phoned up on day 1 of the off-season and offered up Stamkos for Kessel, I don't think any of us would think twice about making that deal, as much as Kessel would appear on everybody's "untouchables" list.

mbow30
03-30-2014, 09:46 AM
this isn't about untouchables. eric staal is just a way better hockey player than both of those guys and would close a giant hole in the lineup. i would also think that one of them would almost certainly have to be part of a package to get him.

Killer93
03-30-2014, 09:55 AM
Kadri will be moved before Bozak IMO. Franson and Reimer will also likely be gonzo and I doubt Gardiner is safe. Just sad that it has come to this bullshit again. Also reminder that Anaheim owns our 2nd round pick this year that we used to get Peter Holland, Habs also used a second round pick to get....Thomas Vanekhttp://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1661195/1297361827048_ORIGINAL.jpg

leafman101
03-30-2014, 09:57 AM
Peter Holland was worth a 2nd.

Killer93
03-30-2014, 10:04 AM
Which I agree with, but also asset management is everything. I feel the team was handcuffed by bad contracts this year and because of that Peter Holland was only the type of acquisition we could make; young cheap centre and that was when half our centres were injured. Imagine if we didn't sign Clarkson then acquired Vanek for the second line during the season.

leafman101
03-30-2014, 10:07 AM
The Clarkson contract was bad, but they should have used that cap space in the offseason either way.

Killer93
03-30-2014, 10:08 AM
The Clarkson contract was bad, but they should have used that cap space in the offseason either way.

With the free agent crop that was available, I was vocal about just waiting it out and going the trade route. Would rather have cap space then over paid third liners IMO.

leafman101
03-30-2014, 10:13 AM
There were lots of guys that could have helped. Jagr, Iginla, Horton, Komarov, Filpulla, Lecavalier, Roy.

Montana
03-30-2014, 10:14 AM
the second was going after Bernier when there was utterly no need to chase a starting goaltender (or even a backup, for that matter).

The results for those moves are in and they decidedly suck shit.



You are such a retard.

BeLeafer
03-30-2014, 10:21 AM
Wow, what a response! Psychopath.

CTheBigPicture
03-30-2014, 10:24 AM
There were bad moves this year but Bernier was not one of them. Reims rebound control and glove hand is simply not Stanley Cup caliber.

Killer93
03-30-2014, 10:26 AM
There were lots of guys that could have helped. Jagr, Iginla, Horton, Komarov, Filpulla, Lecavalier, Roy.

Cmon now. Only name I agree with there is Jagr and Komarov would have been a depth signing. Vinny is done IMO, Iginla and Horton were not signing here, Roy stinks, and Filp was still unproven though he is having a great season this year.

leafman101
03-30-2014, 10:31 AM
All those guys would have helped. And none of them have bad contracts.

The Leafs shouldn't save cap space when there are players out there that can help them. Especially now that you can trade cap space.

BeLeafer
03-30-2014, 10:31 AM
Since the Olympic break the, according to Montana, Vezina candidate, Bernier, has a .901 save percentage. Clutch play down the stretch. Just what you need from a top notch starting goaltender.

Habsy
03-30-2014, 10:32 AM
I had a dream ......lol
First, we trade Phaneuf, Clarkson and a third to Edmonton for RNH ... expecting more of a return? wont happen because of the money they are taking on.
Secondly, kadri, Franson and Reimer to Buffalo for Myers and Stewart.
Sign MacDonald, Goc and Downie.

JVR Bozak Kessel
Lupul RNH Stewart
Downie Goc Ashton
D`Amigo Leo Broll

Myers MacDonald
Reilly Gunnerson
Jake Gleason
Extra dman/Heavyweight if needed Engelland (can be had for a song ufa).

Bernier
Emery

Did you effectively clean up the wet spot you left after this dream?

Habsy
03-30-2014, 10:35 AM
Teams around the Leafs picked up pieces at the deadline. The Leafs didn't. Habs, Detroit, Washington, Columbus are all playing better since the deadline.

Considering the deals that were made and the dollar store prices charged (Collberg and a 2nd for Vanek?!? Really?!?), Nonis should have brought in some grizzled veteran to help this squad. They were available.

That is all on Nonis and why I would axe him.

LeafGm
03-30-2014, 10:37 AM
Nonis didn't have the cap space available to take advantage of those "dollar store prices".

He made his bed in the off-season with his idiotic spending, unfortunately. Left himself with zero flexibility all season.

Montana
03-30-2014, 10:38 AM
Since the Olympic break the, according to Montana, Vezina candidate, Bernier, has a .901 save percentage. Clutch play down the stretch. Just what you need from a top notch starting goaltender.


And is still putting up the best season we've had from a goalie since Belfour (best season here was .922, but I digress), groin injury aside, he's easily been a Vezina candidate.....yet retard that you are, you actually think it was a bad move to acquire him.

In fairness....to you, everyone's sv% looks like potato.

Habsy
03-30-2014, 10:38 AM
He had the cap space to take on some leadership. Sure he couldn't get a Vanel type salary but he could have picked someone up to lead the way down the stretch and in the playoffs. The Leafs have talent, they need leadership. I don't think Phaneuf should be captain.

JackBurton
03-30-2014, 10:39 AM
Holland was a good deal. However. having him play that many games without really using him and iving up another second was what was stupid.

Montana
03-30-2014, 10:39 AM
Nonis's big failure was not landing Bouwmeester......you add him to this team, subtract Clarkson, and it's a whole different ball game.

leafman101
03-30-2014, 10:39 AM
The Leafs could have afforded Vanek. The Islanders retained cash and the Habs are only paying him $1.2 mill. The cap wasn't the reason they didn't get him.

Preston_Mizzi
03-30-2014, 10:39 AM
Leafs were mad when they saw the price that the Habs got Vanek for. Apparently them and the Wild fielded much better offers, but they Isles refused to retain any salary. Islanders are such a gong show organization.

BeLeafer
03-30-2014, 10:40 AM
And is still putting up the best season we've had from a goalie since Belfour (best season here was .922, but I digress), groin injury aside, he's easily been a Vezina candidate.....yet retard that you are, you actually think it was a bad move to acquire him.

In fairness....to you, everyone's sv% looks like potato.

Bernier 2014: .923
Reimer 2013: .924

Very rich irony, bright eyes.

mbow30
03-30-2014, 10:40 AM
the leafs added the big salary when they picked up gleason. which was basically like a deadline deal.

they were in a tough spot because of bolland's injury. it created a lot of uncertainty in terms of just how they were going to get under.

leafman101
03-30-2014, 10:42 AM
Bernier 2014: .923
Reimer 2013: .924

Very rich irony, bright eyes.

But isn't doing it for 53 games way more impressive than 32 games. Especially when the guy who did it for 53 games clearly outplayed the guy who did it for 32 games this year on the same team?

JackBurton
03-30-2014, 10:44 AM
If we really want a drastic change we gotta sacrifice the first rounder. None of these Franson+reimer deals will cut it.

Reimer has to go just on the basis we need the cap room.

mbow30
03-30-2014, 10:45 AM
enough with the bernier bitching. he had a terrific season. the cost was low and the upside is huge.

meanwhile, we're still faced with the fact that reimer apparently folded because the leafs brought in another goalie. which says all sorts of bad things about reimer, and gives the taem a really, really good reason to have gone out and picked up bernier.

Habsy
03-30-2014, 10:46 AM
Leafs were mad when they saw the price that the Habs got Vanek for. Apparently them and the Wild fielded much better offers, but they Isles refused to retain any salary. Islanders are such a gong show organization.

Vanek has been a beast lately too. He is playing awesome on a line with Pacioretty and Desharnais.

Last night:

Pacioretty: 2G 1A
Vanek: 1G 1A
Desharnias: 1G 1A

I'm not going to be happy when he walks in the summer. I'd throw serious cash at Vanek to try and retain him.

Montana
03-30-2014, 10:47 AM
Bernier 2014: .923
Reimer 2013: .924

Very rich irony, bright eyes.

You are a special kind of retard.

Bernier 2014: .923 = 1736 shots faced
Reimer 2013: .924 = 995 shots faced


Meanwhile, Bernier's sv% through 954 shots faced this season = .931

Habsy
03-30-2014, 10:47 AM
enough with the bernier bitching. he had a terrific season. the cost was low and the upside is huge.

meanwhile, we're still faced with the fact that reimer apparently folded because the leafs brought in another goalie. which says all sorts of bad things about reimer, and gives the taem a really, really good reason to have gone out and picked up bernier.

Acquiring Bernier was a good move by the Leafs. I don't get how anyone could think otherwise.

hockeylover
03-30-2014, 10:51 AM
Teams around the Leafs picked up pieces at the deadline. The Leafs didn't. Habs, Detroit, Washington, Columbus are all playing better since the deadline.

Considering the deals that were made and the dollar store prices charged (Collberg and a 2nd for Vanek?!? Really?!?), Nonis should have brought in some grizzled veteran to help this squad. They were available.

That is all on Nonis and why I would axe him.

I feel like if the draft is as weak as people say it is, more teams would've given up their 1sts this deadline.

BeLeafer
03-30-2014, 10:52 AM
Team goaltending is worse this year than last and Reimer has been wrecked by this, as I predicted and why I was against it. End of my debating on this.

hockeylover
03-30-2014, 10:53 AM
Team goaltending is worse this year than last and Reimer has been wrecked by this, as I predicted and why I was against it. End of my debating on this.

... huh? Really?

mbow30
03-30-2014, 10:55 AM
yes. because scrivens > reimer

i guess they should have traded reimer in the bernier trade instead of scrivens.

BeLeafer
03-30-2014, 10:55 AM
.923 > .924

Killer93
03-30-2014, 10:57 AM
Still can't believe were arguing on Bernier vs Reimer. It's not even close anymore

Montana
03-30-2014, 10:57 AM
.923 > .924


Bernier 2014: .923 = 1736 shots faced
Reimer 2013: .924 = 995 shots faced


Bernier's sv% through 954 shots faced this season = .931



Facts >

hockeylover
03-30-2014, 10:58 AM
yes. because scrivens > reimer

i guess they should have traded reimer in the bernier trade instead of scrivens.

Heh. Somehow I get the feeling that wasn't what Beleafer was trying to say at all...

BeLeafer
03-30-2014, 10:58 AM
... huh? Really?

2013: .921
2014: .917

mbow30
03-30-2014, 10:58 AM
oh, so not because of that.. beacuse of the .001 differential between reimer in 2013 and bernier in 2013-14.

come on.

hockeylover
03-30-2014, 10:59 AM
.923 > .924

.001 with a 700+ shot difference?

mbow30
03-30-2014, 10:59 AM
scrivens has a 927 save percentage. reimer has a 908 save percentage.

scrivens >> reimer

hockeylover
03-30-2014, 10:59 AM
2013: .921
2014: .917

I meant Reimer vs. Bernier and you clearly did too.

Montana
03-30-2014, 11:00 AM
Even talking about team goaltending, BeLeafer is again being willfully ignorant to another fact....

Leafs team sv% through 48 games in 2014 > Leafs team sv% through 48 games in 2013.

BeLeafer
03-30-2014, 11:02 AM
oh, so not because of that.. beacuse of the .001 differential between reimer in 2013 and bernier in 2013-14.

come on.

Not sure if you're responding to me, but I'm not the one that used save percentage to claim Bernier has been the best since Belfour.

Certainly, Belfour didn't sag at the end of season, nor did Reimer last year.

BeLeafer
03-30-2014, 11:04 AM
Even talking about team goaltending, BeLeafer is again being willfully ignorant to another fact....

Leafs team sv% through 48 games in 2014 > Leafs team sv% through 48 games in 2013.

To be fair, you'd have to compare the final 48 games ... get back to me on that.

Montana
03-30-2014, 11:08 AM
You make Pronger84 seem wise.

BeLeafer
03-30-2014, 11:10 AM
Brilliant!

hockeylover
03-30-2014, 11:12 AM
It seems like there's many people out there that want to blame everyone but Reimer for Reimer's poor play.

BeLeafer
03-30-2014, 11:17 AM
Seems like there's a lot of people in denial that this trade caused the team goaltending problems.

hockeylover
03-30-2014, 11:18 AM
Seems like there's a lot of people in denial that this trade caused the team goaltending problems.

Sure, sure. The team has goaltending problems. Not defense problems. Goaltending problems.

Matrim
03-30-2014, 11:22 AM
I'm confused, what goaltending problems? We had two young goalies to see who can become the number 1, Bernier won, and looks like he could be a great goalie for years to come. This collapse has nothing to do with the goalies on this team.

leafman101
03-30-2014, 11:22 AM
The team doesn't have goaltending problems. This is GLG level denial.

JohnnyHolmes
03-30-2014, 11:40 AM
I'm wondering why he's on the outs with so many NHL clubs when his clients seem to be borderline superhuman. James Neal exploded after his conversion to the Roberts way of life, Stamkos is in such good shape that he's coming back from season ending injuries a month or two ahead of schedule and barely missing a beat. Kadri went for one summer and progressed from enigmatic youngster to the break out story of the year.

I wonder what is going on that NHL clubs seem to be avoiding the guy.

Probably that he makes the training staff look like idiots?

Differing philosophies?

UWHabs
03-30-2014, 11:41 AM
Goaltending is likely one of the last things you need to change.

First off, Nonis will get another year. Still too early to fire the GM.
Carlyle is gone. I'm actually kind of surprised he actually hasn't been fired yet. A gutsy GM would can him today, and pray that an interim coach can spark something and magically get you to the playoffs. But I can't see Nonis do that - he'll wait until after the season.

Clarkson is not gone. You can't buy him out without a massive cap penalty forever, and he's been too bad to trade.

I'd suggest you go one of 2 routes:
1. Minor tweaking. This is the obvious (Franson gone, Bolland gone, Reimer gone). You need to target defensive D, though. Doesn't have to be amazing guys, but you need to bring in a couple of the Gunnarson, Weaver, Murray type defenders. If you want to get fancy, you also trade Gardiner. Not sure it would all work out, but something like Franson + Gardiner + Reimer for an Ehrhoff or Edler type would help you as well.
2. Major moves. You may have to part with guys you like, but a move I would very seriously consider is dealing for both Staals. Some combo of Kadri, Gardiner, Franson, Reimer, picks, prospects for them, and then you fill out the rest of your roster on the cheap. Get Car to retain a little of Eric's salary, and that gives you the legit centre depth you've been looking for. Ignore the bottom line guys - feel free to replace them with whatever else you have on the farm or in cheap UFA, but you can round out the roster like this:

CAPGEEK.COM ARMCHAIR GM ROSTER
CapGeek Armchair GM Roster
FORWARDS
Joffrey Lupul ($5.250m) / Tyler Bozak ($4.200m) / Phil Kessel ($8.000m)
James Van Riemsdyk ($4.250m) / Eric Staal ($7.425m—10.00%) / David Clarkson ($5.250m)
Mason Raymond ($1.000m) / Jordan Staal ($6.000m) / Tyler Biggs ($0.894m)
Frazer McLaren ($0.700m) / Peter Holland ($1.000m) / Colton Orr ($0.925m)
DEFENSEMEN
Dion Phaneuf ($7.000m) / Tim Gleason ($4.000m)
Carl Gunnarsson ($3.150m) / Morgan Rielly ($0.894m)
T.J. Brennan ($0.660m) / Matt Finn ($0.858m)
GOALTENDERS
Jonathan Bernier ($2.900m)
Devan Dubnyk ($1.000m)
BUYOUTS
Mike Komisarek ($0.000m)
Mikhail Grabovski ($0.000m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(estimations for 2014-15)
SALARY CAP: $71,100,000; CAP PAYROLL: $65,356,667; BONUSES: $1,062,500
CAP SPACE (20-man roster): $5,743,333

Still a little space left there to get better players than I have listed, and round out the 3 bench spots, but if you're going to go big I would target a move like this. Combined with a new coach, could go a long way.

MyNameIsJonas
03-30-2014, 11:44 AM
You can trade Clarkson, if you eat half the contract.

Some team would take him for free at 2.5-3M.

GEEMAN
03-30-2014, 12:26 PM
You can trade Clarkson, if you eat half the contract.

Some team would take him for free at 2.5-3M.

Exactly , or take a bad contract back with some salary as well , the salary provision retention has helped facilitate trades

The problem with the contract is these teams are still bent on paying 5+ to third liners as UFA`s . All these deals end up bad , just stop doing it.

hockeylover
03-30-2014, 02:13 PM
Dan Tencer, beat writer for Oil Change...

Andrew Walker ‏@FAN590Walker 25m
@dantencer yeah man we're on same page. Edmonton would jump at chance to add dion and his contract.... I would think.

Dan Tencer ‏@dantencer 10m
@FAN590Walker I don't know. I know that I'd hope not.

Jesus.

mbow30
03-30-2014, 02:21 PM
i like dion. i think he generally gets a raw deal.

but it's tough to defend him right now. we know he's playing banged up and he might be hurt. but at the end of the day he has totally folded. it isn't even just that his game hasn't been as good as it can be -- he has been downright awful since the olympic break.

hockeylover
03-30-2014, 02:30 PM
i like dion. i think he generally gets a raw deal.

but it's tough to defend him right now. we know he's playing banged up and he might be hurt. but at the end of the day he has totally folded. it isn't even just that his game hasn't been as good as it can be -- he has been downright awful since the olympic break.

You're not wrong.

But Oil Change of all teams. I find that tough to believe.

TheCountofMonteCristo
03-30-2014, 02:38 PM
So would I, but you're not getting shit for Lupul. I think you could get a very nice piece or two for JVR. They're both guys that have no interest playing defense. They're not good enough offensively to play like that. Lupul was, but he's too busy posing naked and being a vapid piece of shit to keep up his play from recent years.

He wasnt all that great before getring to Toronto, he has returned to his previous level.

Volcanologist
03-30-2014, 03:18 PM
yeah, I've been a Dion defender and I think he's a good player, but he has now come up very small for us in two critical situations and that is unacceptable from your captain.

Wayward DP
03-30-2014, 03:47 PM
Dion was a -8 this week. Ouch.

mbow30
03-30-2014, 04:32 PM
Dion was a -8 this week. Ouch.

-15 in march. a minus player in 11 or 15 games.

Pronger84
03-30-2014, 06:18 PM
IMHO I couldn't disagree more .... Gardiner is going to be worth the wait. Are the leafs going to win the Stanley cup next year ... highly unlikely. So why not hold onto Gardiner and see how he does with another coach .... hell, bring in Raymond Bourque as a Defenceman coach for Rielly and Gardiner or even a Larry Robinson (see what his contract status is with the sharks). The facts are that Gardiner will always fetch a good return but if we trade him now that return may never ever match what Gardiner may do in the future.
And as someone else mentioned ... the Gods do owe the leafs at least a tickle of good fortune .... number one position at the draft the TML lol

The difference between you and I is that you place far too much sentimental value on a player, I look at the bigger picture of the team. The Leafs are small/soft up front, we can espically use an upgrade on the 2nd line RW (Clarkson's spot), the problem is a player like that will cost value and really outside of the core our players simply don't hold high value, Gardiner is an exception though he's still young at 24, he has world elite speed and can be a game changer on the back end... a lot of teams would love to add a guy like that to their blueline and IMO that's the type of deal it's going to take to upgrade our forwards. Gardiner is expendable IMO, we have Rielly who at 19 is just as good of a skater, thinks the game a lot better and is more reliable in his own end... remember to get value you have to give up value.

Pronger84
03-30-2014, 06:24 PM
Seems like there's a lot of people in denial that this trade caused the team goaltending problems.

It sounds like your giving Reimer a pass, had he made the saves needed to in Game 7 last year odds are Bernier isn't a Leaf this season. Game 7 aside, Reimer instead of sulking should have been motivated to regain the #1 job, he had a glorious chance to steal it back when Bernier went down and outside of a stellar game against LA he crapped the bed badly.

rated
03-30-2014, 06:27 PM
The team doesn't have goaltending problems. This is GLG level denial.

Yeah, this is so ****ing ridiculous.


It sounds like your giving Reimer a pass,

No, he's nothing but a stupid Reimer fanboy. Don't quote his shit.

uncus
03-30-2014, 07:09 PM
The difference between you and I is that you place far too much sentimental value on a player, I look at the bigger picture of the team. The Leafs are small/soft up front, we can espically use an upgrade on the 2nd line RW (Clarkson's spot), the problem is a player like that will cost value and really outside of the core our players simply don't hold high value, Gardiner is an exception though he's still young at 24, he has world elite speed and can be a game changer on the back end... a lot of teams would love to add a guy like that to their blueline and IMO that's the type of deal it's going to take to upgrade our forwards. Gardiner is expendable IMO, we have Rielly who at 19 is just as good of a skater, thinks the game a lot better and is more reliable in his own end... remember to get value you have to give up value.

They are soft up front ...small, not so sure about that but they play small. Bozak and kessel will always will play small ..... Kadri is an opportunist and will lay out a hit when someone is vulnerable (fine but he has to answer the bell someday) ...
Keep Gardiner and give him another year or two

MindzEye
03-30-2014, 07:14 PM
I'm not big on throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The young players we have, who have legitimate top end upside...keep them and see how it plays out unless someone has a player similar to what you hope they can become, available, and will accept said young player as a major piece of a trade for that in prime upgrade.

Outside of that scenario, be patient, cut the dead weight, make good depth upgrades that make us deeper offensive and better defensively, bring a new coach in (at minimum) and take another run at it with the young kids and see if they respond in a new environment. As disheartening as this collapse is, the wrong thing to do is just start throwing the future away because we see flaws in a young team.

Pronger84
03-30-2014, 09:26 PM
I'm not big on throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The young players we have, who have legitimate top end upside...keep them and see how it plays out unless someone has a player similar to what you hope they can become, available, and will accept said young player as a major piece of a trade for that in prime upgrade.

Outside of that scenario, be patient, cut the dead weight, make good depth upgrades that make us deeper offensive and better defensively, bring a new coach in (at minimum) and take another run at it with the young kids and see if they respond in a new environment. As disheartening as this collapse is, the wrong thing to do is just start throwing the future away because we see flaws in a young team.

IMO the deadweight on this team is: Clarkson, Raymond, and Orr(to a lesser extent) those are the big 3 that need to but unhooked and tossed back into the water. Clarkson's a massive headache due to his albatross contract but if Nonis can somehow agree to retain some of his salary in a trade I could see some teams interested in him (Edmonton and Ottawa were lusting after him last offseason), maybe Clarkson (plus salary retanation) and Franson for Gagner and a 3rd (just an example). Raymond is easy to fix, just don't resign him in the offseason and there's a million in cap space saved. Orr's a bit problematic though due to his concussion issue and not wanting to fight as much, but worst case scenerio we bury him in the minors.

hockeylover
03-30-2014, 10:30 PM
@DobberHockey In the 54 gms Clarkson played Kadri has 22 pts. In the 19 gms Clarkson missed Kadri has 26

MindzEye
03-30-2014, 11:01 PM
@DobberHockey In the 54 gms Clarkson played Kadri has 22 pts. In the 19 gms Clarkson missed Kadri has 26

Weird

Pronger84
03-30-2014, 11:04 PM
Weird

Not surprising. Kadri's a rush style player who's at his best with speedy wingers who can play give and go with him, Clarkson is slow out there and he kills the play with firing blind shots at the net and refusing to use his linemates.

Volcanologist
03-30-2014, 11:08 PM
:lol

MindzEye
03-30-2014, 11:13 PM
IMO the deadweight on this team is: Clarkson, Raymond, and Orr(to a lesser extent) those are the big 3 that need to but unhooked and tossed back into the water. Clarkson's a massive headache due to his albatross contract but if Nonis can somehow agree to retain some of his salary in a trade I could see some teams interested in him (Edmonton and Ottawa were lusting after him last offseason), maybe Clarkson (plus salary retanation) and Franson for Gagner and a 3rd (just an example). Raymond is easy to fix, just don't resign him in the offseason and there's a million in cap space saved. Orr's a bit problematic though due to his concussion issue and not wanting to fight as much, but worst case scenerio we bury him in the minors.

To be honest, and though I'm sure LoF will snap and lose his shit when I say this, but I've gotta consider Kulemin "dead weight" on this roster going forward. Not that I don't like him as a 3rd line forward, but he has absolutely lost his offensive ability. He was given opportunities with Kadri & Lupul through out the season and though he didn't drag the line down like Clarkson did, he definitely didn't show that he has any offensive chops left, and by extension, any reason to tie ourselves to him with any sort of term. I mean, signing him to the ~3.5 million dollar contract (minimum) he's likely to ask for would quickly turn ugly if his offence continues it's slide.

For all the bad mouthing of Komarov's offensive abilities last year, he put up a pretty similar pace to what Kulemin put up this year. We simply shouldn't be paying UFA rate for that. That's replaceable for cheaper, either in house or from UFA's who slip through the cracks.

MindzEye
03-30-2014, 11:13 PM
Not surprising. Kadri's a rush style player who's at his best with speedy wingers who can play give and go with him, Clarkson is slow out there and he kills the play with firing blind shots at the net and refusing to use his linemates.

It's gonna be okay buddy. You'll understand blatant sarcasm one of these days.

Pronger84
03-30-2014, 11:18 PM
To be honest, and though I'm sure LoF will snap and lose his shit when I say this, but I've gotta consider Kulemin "dead weight" on this roster going forward. Not that I don't like him as a 3rd line forward, but he has absolutely lost his offensive ability. He was given opportunities with Kadri & Lupul through out the season and though he didn't drag the line down like Clarkson did, he definitely didn't show that he has any offensive chops left, and by extension, any reason to tie ourselves to him with any sort of term. I mean, signing him to the ~3.5 million dollar contract (minimum) he's likely to ask for would quickly turn ugly if his offence continues it's slide.

For all the bad mouthing of Komarov's offensive abilities last year, he put up a pretty similar pace to what Kulemin put up this year. We simply shouldn't be paying UFA rate for that. That's replaceable for cheaper, either in house or from UFA's who slip through the cracks.

It's alarming how fast his offensive game has tapered off, just 3 years ago he knocked back 30 goals and close to 60 points and now he's getting 9-12 a season and this is in spite of playing with Kadri/Lupul who are decent 2nd liners. He's still a valuable cog to this team with his ability to forecheck and his defensive prowness but yea it's hard to justify giving him $3.5M a season for that alone, if he's willing to sign for $2-2.5M then lock him up, if not he's trade bait at this point IMO.

Pronger84
03-30-2014, 11:19 PM
It's gonna be okay buddy. You'll understand blatant sarcasm one of these days.

Yea I just realized it was sarcasm, I totally missed the boat on that one lol.

MindzEye
03-30-2014, 11:20 PM
he's a UFA, if we're not paying him, we're letting him walk. The much bigger need for cap space imo is a legit top 6 winger for the 2nd line. Vrbata or Jagr in free agency, or Chris Stewart in trade would be nice.

Pronger84
03-30-2014, 11:22 PM
he's a UFA, if we're not paying him, we're letting him walk. The much bigger need for cap space imo is a legit top 6 winger for the 2nd line. Vrbata or Jagr in free agency, or Chris Stewart in trade would be nice.

I wouldn't mind taking a flyer out on Jagr on a cheap one year deal, he's still got some gas left and he's got that experience this team lacks. Stewart would be an ideal pick up, has size and plays with piss n vinegar, Buffalos' looking to rebuild so it would probably cost a pick and prospect to get him which is a fair value deal.

leafman101
03-30-2014, 11:24 PM
At this point I wouldn't resign any of the UFAs. Bolland isn't a good enough 3rd line center because he stinks at faceoffs, and he is never healthy anyway so how can you invest in him long term? Raymond was a great addition for $1 mill, but he is just more of what we have and also not worth a big investment. McSelke is a solid fourth line center but we have Holland who is cheaper and can add some skill to the fourth line.

Kuly is the only guy who is a good fit here but you let those guys go and hopefully fill from within and guys like Leivo, Broll, McKegg, Ashton, D'Amigo.

Don't waste cap space on any of those guys. Save it for a better center and a top 2/3 dman.

Volcanologist
03-30-2014, 11:26 PM
I think Jeff Skinner is another name the Leafs could be interested in. He fits the age profile they're after and has proven 30 goal skill.

Pronger84
03-30-2014, 11:27 PM
I wouldn't mind bringing Bolland back, the dude is clutch... however I wouldn't go any more then a 1 year deal with him at this point.

JackBurton
03-30-2014, 11:28 PM
I wouldn't mind taking a flyer out on Jagr on a cheap one year deal, he's still got some gas left and he's got that experience this team lacks. Stewart would be an ideal pick up, has size and plays with piss n vinegar, Buffalos' looking to rebuild so it would probably cost a pick and prospect to get him which is a fair value deal.

Jagr is a high-priced whore. He will never take a cheap deal. He will sign with the highest bidder.

LeafGm
03-30-2014, 11:32 PM
Jagr is a high-priced whore. He will never take a cheap deal. He will sign with the highest bidder.
Yep. One of the 30 NHL teams will be willing to offer him 4-5 million, and that's where he'll sign.

mbow30
03-30-2014, 11:33 PM
I'm not big on throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The young players we have, who have legitimate top end upside...keep them and see how it plays out unless someone has a player similar to what you hope they can become, available, and will accept said young player as a major piece of a trade for that in prime upgrade.

Outside of that scenario, be patient, cut the dead weight, make good depth upgrades that make us deeper offensive and better defensively, bring a new coach in (at minimum) and take another run at it with the young kids and see if they respond in a new environment. As disheartening as this collapse is, the wrong thing to do is just start throwing the future away because we see flaws in a young team.

while i generally agree, i'm not sure this is a group worth waiting on. if they were ever going to 'get it' it should have happened after last year's playoffs.

kessel and bernier look like studs. rielly looks like he's going to be a star.

there isn't a single other player on the team or in the system who i would think twice about dealing, if the right trade came along. maybe gardiner, though i think he'll always have some shortcomings to his game.

guys like bozak, phaneuf, lupul, gunnarsson are all going to be between 28 and 31 by the end of the year. kadri's a nice player but imo he looks like a ribeiro -- good player to have, can be a difference maker some nights but a far from ideal first line centre. jvr doesn't always put in the work defensively and looks like a bit of a one-trick-pony who still doesn't use his size very well.

they're all to some extent expendable. i wouldn't necessarily blow up the team but if i were gm i would very actively be looking to replace some of those core pieces around the guys i mentioned above.

MindzEye
03-30-2014, 11:34 PM
Yep. One of the 30 NHL teams will be willing to offer him 4-5 million, and that's where he'll sign.

Should have been us this year, should be us next year.

mbow30
03-30-2014, 11:35 PM
and, of course, the other problem is that the rest of the roster is mostly 3rd/4th line crap and none of the kids currently on the marlies looks at all close to being much better than that. at least up front.

leafman101
03-30-2014, 11:36 PM
FORWARDS
Joffrey Lupul ($5.250m) / Tyler Bozak ($4.200m) / Phil Kessel ($8.000m)
James Van Riemsdyk ($4.250m) / Nazem Kadri ($2.900m) /
Josh Leivo ($0.793m) / David Clarkson ($5.250m)
Jerry D'Amigo ($0.851m) / Peter Holland ($0.851m) / Carter Ashton ($0.851m)
Colton Orr ($0.925m) /

DEFENSEMEN
Dion Phaneuf ($7.000m)
Carl Gunnarsson ($3.150m) / Morgan Rielly ($0.894m)
Jake Gardiner ($2.500m) / Tim Gleason ($4.000m)
T.J. Brennan ($0.850m) / Petter Granberg ($0.800m)

GOALTENDERS
Jonathan Bernier ($2.900m)

BUYOUTS
Mike Komisarek ($0.000m)
Mikhail Grabovski ($0.000m)

------

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(estimations for 2014-15)
SALARY CAP: $71,100,000;
CAP PAYROLL: $56,213,167;
BONUSES: $1,082,500
CAP SPACE (19-man roster): $14,886,833

Depending on where the cap goes ~$12-15 mill to add a 2nd line winger, 3rd line center, top 2 dman and a goalie.

mbow30
03-30-2014, 11:54 PM
dunno where else to put this one

Paul Bissonnette ‏@BizNasty2point0 1h
Knowing Mike Milbury has a job talking hockey makes me feel good about life after I'm done playing. Guy's a zero.

CH1
03-31-2014, 12:01 AM
Great tweet! Though I did have to google Paul Bissonnette.

MindzEye
03-31-2014, 08:19 AM
and, of course, the other problem is that the rest of the roster is mostly 3rd/4th line crap and none of the kids currently on the marlies looks at all close to being much better than that. at least up front.

I could live with it being 3rd/4th line crap if they were effective at something.

Killer93
03-31-2014, 08:51 AM
What scares me is Nonis' job being on the line next year likely and him making a dumb move like trading Kadri, Gardiner, and our 1st for a 2nd line centre and d-man

leafman101
03-31-2014, 09:10 AM
I'm not sure Nonis has the balls to make a move like that. Never has before.

MyNameIsJonas
03-31-2014, 09:13 AM
What's worse the GM with no balls or the GM with a mindset to save his job?

Killer93
03-31-2014, 09:13 AM
To be you go the trade route to bring a d-man to pair with Phaneuf and then you move Gunnar and Gleason to help Rielly and Gardiner. Trade pieces include Franson, Reimer, 1st rounder, prospects. Then use free agency and land a solid 2nd line winger and 3rd line centre and let the kids like Holland, Leivo, D'Amigo fill in the rest of the holes. Would also look at bringing back Kulemin only if price is right. Bolland is likely gone unless he takes a 1 or 2 yr deal

leafman101
03-31-2014, 09:14 AM
What's worse the GM with no balls or the GM with a mindset to save his job?

GM's who make decisions to save their jobs are the worst.

leafman101
03-31-2014, 09:16 AM
I think they need a more impact move than just signing some depth free agents. They need a guy in a key roll that is a leader by example on the ice. Not sure if you can convince a guy like Iginla to come here, but short of that I don't see that player in free agency. If you can make a move for a guy like Staal or Kesler that would probably be ideal.

mbow30
03-31-2014, 09:36 AM
GM's who make decisions to save their jobs are the worst.

I doubt nonis does this. The criticism of him has always been that he is too conservative and too willing to sit on his hands. I could see him making some significant changes but I doubt that he makes a Gay-type trade.

leafman101
03-31-2014, 09:37 AM
He definitely won't. If anything he is the one guy I could see sticking with Carlyle and doing nothing.

MyNameIsJonas
03-31-2014, 09:39 AM
Do you really think Liewieke sticks with Nonis, if he wants to keep Carlyle?

Habsy
03-31-2014, 09:42 AM
I think Jeff Skinner is another name the Leafs could be interested in. He fits the age profile they're after and has proven 30 goal skill.

I don't see Carolina trading him.

MyNameIsJonas
03-31-2014, 09:47 AM
I don't see Carolina trading him.

Me either.

I know they need to shed salary but i suspect Ward, Semin and Jordan Staal are shopped before Skinner and Eric

Habsy
03-31-2014, 09:48 AM
Me either.

I know they need to shed salary but i suspect Ward, Semin and Jordan Staal are shopped before Skinner and Eric

Ayap.

The fact they need to shed salary slays me too.

MyNameIsJonas
03-31-2014, 09:50 AM
Ayap.

The fact they need to shed salary slays me too.

It's disgusting how many high priced mediocre players that team is chalk full of.

MyNameIsJonas
03-31-2014, 09:51 AM
Wasn't sure where to put this, but fun stat

New Jersey Devils

0-10 in shootouts this year

times they have gotten past original 3 shooters? 0

of the 30 skaters they used, goals for?...1

Pronger84
03-31-2014, 09:51 AM
What scares me is Nonis' job being on the line next year likely and him making a dumb move like trading Kadri, Gardiner, and our 1st for a 2nd line centre and d-man

I don't think he does that- Kadri has 48 points in 72 games (55 points over an 82 game schedule), to put this in prespective here's where he ranks for 2nd line C totals:

Anahiem-Bonino (46 points)
Boston- Bergeron (52 points)
Buffalo- Hodgson (36 points)
Calgary- Hudler (49 points)
Carolina- J Staal (39 points)
Chicago- Shaw (36 points)
Colorado- ROR- (58 points)
Columbus- Dubinisky (44 points)
Dallas- Eakin (36 points)
Edmonton- Gagner (34 points)
Florida- Barkov (24 points)
LA- Carter (46 points)
Minny- Granlund (40 points)
Montreal- Desharnais (49 points)
Nashville- Fisher (42 points)
NJ- Zajac (39 points)
Islanders- Nielsen (52 points)
Rangers- Stepan (53 points)
Ottawa- Spezza (61 points)
Philly- Couturier (36 points)
Phoenix - Riberio (45 points)
Pittsburgh- Malkin (72 points)
San Jose- Pavelski (73 points)
St Louis - Berglund (32 points)
Toronto- Kadri (48 points)

Tampa- Johnson (47 points)
Vancouver- Kesler (41 points)
Washington- Johansson (41 points)

Players with higher point totals: Bergeron, Hudler, ROR, Desharnais,Nielsen, Stepan, Spezza, Malkin, Pavelski
Kadri's ranking: 10th in scoring out of the 30 second line centres

At this point the only real upgrades would be guys like Bergeron, Malkin and Pavelski at this point. I highly doubt Boston and Pittsburgh part with their 2C's, Pavelski might be an option but he's also pushing 30 while Kadri is in his early 20's with a much more controllable cap hit. Bottom line if Kadri is dealt and I'm not so sure he will be it will be to upgrade a position of weakness such as a 2nd line power winger or top 4 defensmen, a 2C plus a defencmen plus a 1st rounder for a 2C doesn't make much sense unless the player is a clear upgrade on Kadri.

MyNameIsJonas
03-31-2014, 09:53 AM
I don't think he does that- Kadri has 48 points in 72 games (55 points over an 82 game schedule), to put this in prespective here's where he ranks for 2nd line C totals:

Anahiem-Bonino (46 points)
Boston- Bergeron (52 points)
Buffalo- Hodgson (36 points)
Calgary- Hudler (49 points)
Carolina- J Staal (39 points)
Chicago- Shaw (36 points)
Colorado- ROR- (58 points)
Columbus- Dubinisky (44 points)
Dallas- Eakin (36 points)
Edmonton- Gagner (34 points)
Florida- Barkov (24 points)
LA- Carter (46 points)
Minny- Granlund (40 points)
Montreal- Desharnais (49 points)
Nashville- Fisher (42 points)
NJ- Zajac (39 points)
Islanders- Nielsen (52 points)
Rangers- Stepan (53 points)
Ottawa- Spezza (61 points)
Philly- Couturier (36 points)
Phoenix - Riberio (45 points)
Pittsburgh- Malkin (72 points)
San Jose- Pavelski (73 points)
St Louis - Berglund (32 points)
Toronto- Kadri (48 points)

Tampa- Johnson (47 points)
Vancouver- Kesler (41 points)
Washington- Johansson (41 points)

Players with higher point totals: Bergeron, Hudler, ROR, Desharnais,Nielsen, Stepan, Spezza, Malkin, Pavelski
Kadri's ranking: 10th in scoring out of the 30 second line centres

At this point the only real upgrades would be guys like Bergeron, Malkin and Pavelski at this point. I highly doubt Boston and Pittsburgh part with their 2C's, Pavelski might be an option but he's also pushing 30 while Kadri is in his early 20's with a much more controllable cap hit. Bottom line if Kadri is dealt and I'm not so sure he will be it will be to upgrade a position of weakness such as a 2nd line power winger or top 4 defensmen, a 2C plus a defencmen plus a 1st rounder for a 2C doesn't make much sense unless the player is a clear upgrade on Kadri.

If he moves Kadri, it will have absolutely nothing to do with his offensive production.

Volcanologist
03-31-2014, 09:55 AM
I don't see Carolina trading him.

Maybe not their first choice, but the impression among Canes fans is that while a good player he just doesn't fit there. I didn't see the Bruins trading Kessel or Seguin either, sometimes teams come to the conclusion a player simply isn't working with their group.

Habsy
03-31-2014, 09:55 AM
Deharnais is Montreal's #1 center unfortunately.

Plekanec is our #2.

You can't simply go by TOI because Plekanec kills penalties and Deharnais doesn't. Considering Vanek and Pacioretty play with DD, you should see he is the #1 center.

Plekanec has 41 points in 75 games so points-wise, Kadri has done better.

Habsy
03-31-2014, 09:56 AM
Maybe not their first choice, but the impression among Canes fans is that while a good player he just doesn't fit there. I didn't see the Bruins trading Kessel or Seguin either, sometimes teams come to the conclusion a player simply isn't working with their group.

Skinner is a fan favorite. Which Canes fans are you referring to?

Pronger84
03-31-2014, 09:58 AM
Deharnais is Montreal's #1 center unfortunately.

Plekanec is our #2.

You can't simply go by TOI because Plekanec kills penalties and Deharnais doesn't. Considering Vanek and Pacioretty play with DD, you should see he is the #1 center.


Plekanec has 41 points in 75 games so points-wise, Kadri has done better.

Oh ok, sorry was going by TOI to seperate the 1C's from the 2C's, guess I goofed on Plekanec.

MyNameIsJonas
03-31-2014, 10:00 AM
If you are going to strip down, rebuild and shed salary....you keep the young buck with upside that has salary and rid the poison.

Frankly moving Ward should be automatic, and could be enough if they find a taker.

cmaleski2
03-31-2014, 10:00 AM
Since you guys are talking hypothetical possibilities in the offseason, consider that my Carolina Hurricanes will have a new GM and all of the talk surrounding the team involves major shakeups coming, including the possibility that Eric Staal might be in play.

So, what would you be willing to trade to Carolina to bring Eric Staal home? Leafs first rounder + JVR + Kadri? Too much (not enough?) The Canes might be dangling all sorts of players this year (Skinner's name has come up too, I see you already were talking about him).

Remains to be seen if a new GM comes in and really has the stones to trade Eric Staal and/or Jeff Skinner, but I suspect with their Toronto connections the Leafs late season swoon there will be a lot of rumors linking the Canes and Leafs this offseason.

MyNameIsJonas
03-31-2014, 10:02 AM
If i was said new Carolina GM, i would want Rielly but accept that i wasn't getting him in the deal.

Therefore i would want Kadri, Gardiner and a pick for Eric Staal

Pronger84
03-31-2014, 10:03 AM
So, what would you be willing to trade to Carolina to bring Eric Staal home? Leafs first rounder + JVR + Kadri? Too much (not enough?) The Canes might be dangling all sorts of players this year (Skinner's name has come up too).

Looking at the needs of your team, I'd say you guys badly need a PMD, someone to replace Staal's minutes, and a draft pick. If I'm Nonis I offer up Kadri, Gardiner and a 1st for E. Staal

Pronger84
03-31-2014, 10:03 AM
If i was said new Carolina GM, i would want Rielly but accept that i wasn't getting him in the deal.

Therefore i would want Kadri, Gardiner and a pick for Eric Staal

Hell has frozen over we're on the same page here lol.

Habsy
03-31-2014, 10:04 AM
If i was said new Carolina GM, i would want Rielly but accept that i wasn't getting him in the deal.

Therefore i would want Kadri, Gardiner and a pick for Eric Staal

Staal is still the best player in that deal.

That is the problem with dealing guys like Staal, you will rarely get an equal player back.

JackBurton
03-31-2014, 10:05 AM
So, what would you be willing to trade to Carolina to bring Eric Staal home? Leafs first rounder + JVR + Kadri? Too much (not enough?) The Canes might be dangling all sorts of players this year (Skinner's name has come up too).

Looking at the needs of your team, I'd say you guys badly need a PMD, someone to replace Staal's minutes, and a draft pick. If I'm Nonis I offer up Kadri, Gardiner and a 1st for E. Staal

There's no way Staal will bring back that type of value no matter what team he gets traded to.

MyNameIsJonas
03-31-2014, 10:05 AM
Staal is still the best player in that deal.

That is the problem with dealing guys like Staal, you will rarely get an equal player back.

Agreed, but in this universe where i have to dump his salary i accept the fact i'm not getting a player as good back for him.

JackBurton
03-31-2014, 10:06 AM
Staal is still the best player in that deal.

That is the problem with dealing guys like Staal, you will rarely get an equal player back.

Yeah, because right now, Eric is very overpaid for his current production.

Habsy
03-31-2014, 10:06 AM
There's no way Staal will bring back that type of value no matter what team he gets traded to.

He'll bring in two NHL ready players and a high pick. Or an NHL ready player, a very good prospect and a high pick.

Killer93
03-31-2014, 10:06 AM
Why are people suggesting we deal JVR? Solid top six winger with a cap friendly contract and he's young

Habsy
03-31-2014, 10:07 AM
Yeah, because right now, Eric is very overpaid for his current production.

You know that means jack shit when a player of his ilk hits the market.

JackBurton
03-31-2014, 10:07 AM
Do you really think Liewieke sticks with Nonis, if he wants to keep Carlyle?

Nonis will fire Carlyle. He's not going to risk his job for a coach that did such a shitty job. Imo, Nonis is very safe. Carlyle is certainly not.

JackBurton
03-31-2014, 10:08 AM
You know that means jack shit when a player of his ilk hits the market.

Look at the packages big name players are moved for though. It's usually not that much.

Pronger84
03-31-2014, 10:09 AM
Why are people suggesting we deal JVR? Solid top six winger with a cap friendly contract and he's young

I'm not infatuated by any player on this team, team>player any day of the week. That being said, he's got all the tools (size, shot, speed, net drive) and as you mentioned he's got a very reasonable cap hit, you only play that card if you really need to fix a glaring weakness, right now Bozak isn't the most ideal 1C but he's far from the problem and far from giving up a potential powerforward, I'd pull the trigger though if it meant getting a 1D though.

cmaleski2
03-31-2014, 10:09 AM
Well right, that is the issue with trading Eric Staal. There is no 'star for star' trade out there, its going to end up being Eric Staal for a package of picks and 'good' players. This the cycle the Hartford Whalers spent their final 6-7 years in...trading away their 'best' players for a package of 'good players'. Its a rough game to play and the team trading away the 'superstar' is usually left in worse shape.

That said, if the Canes are going to really do something big in the offseason, this is the year. Its going to be a very interesting offseason and I suspect the Canes player X to Leafs rumors will be buzzing all offseason.

MyNameIsJonas
03-31-2014, 10:10 AM
i really don't expect E Staal or Skinner to move.

Canes will ship out the other albatrosses for pennies on the dollar.

Habsy
03-31-2014, 10:11 AM
Like Jordan Staal.

Pronger84
03-31-2014, 10:11 AM
Nonis will fire Carlyle. He's not going to risk his job for a coach that did such a shitty job. Imo, Nonis is very safe. Carlyle is certainly not.

This^ plus supposedly Nonis never wanted Carlyle here in the 1st place. Regardless Nonis knows his job's on the line if he doesn't dispose of Carlyle, he's going to save his own ass first instead of taking blame for this roster, but then again that's the nature of the beast in sports.... a GM will never take accountability for his own mistakes, he'd just as soon trade players or fire coaches before taking blame.

leafman101
03-31-2014, 10:11 AM
Carolina has no reason to move Eric unless you give up a lot.

People always point to packages like Thonton and Phaneuf and say "see star players don't get good players back", but that is also why you never see them moved. If you want to pry Eric away you have to pay through the teeth and give them a reason to move him. Personally I'd gladly give them Kadri, Gardiner and a 1st. Thats a steal.

MyNameIsJonas
03-31-2014, 10:12 AM
Like Jordan Staal.

Or Cam Ward
Or Alex Semin

leafman101
03-31-2014, 10:13 AM
Do you really think they can trade Ward? No way any team trades for his contract without them eating a bunch of salary. But that defeats the purpose. They are probably stuck with Semin too at $7 mill.

Pronger84
03-31-2014, 10:13 AM
Well right, that is the issue with trading Eric Staal. There is no 'star for star' trade out there, its going to end up being Eric Staal for a package of picks and 'good' players. This the cycle the Hartford Whalers spent their final 6-7 years in...trading away their 'best' players for a package of 'good players'. Its a rough game to play and the team trading away the 'superstar' is usually left in worse shape.

That said, if the Canes are going to really do something big in the offseason, this is the year. Its going to be a very interesting offseason and I suspect the Canes player X to Leafs rumors will be buzzing all offseason.

I really think both teams need to alter their foundation of their identity, Carolina hasnt' been good in a few years now and Toronto has had 3 straight years with epic collapses with this same roster, something has to give that's for sure.

JackBurton
03-31-2014, 10:14 AM
Carolina has financial concerns. They will likely move some expensive pieces. I do agree though, that Ward and Jordan will be moved first. Although's Ward's value should be very little given his contract and current performance. Not to mention the fact, the goalie market is shit right now.

JackBurton
03-31-2014, 10:15 AM
Do you really think they can trade Ward? No way any team trades for his contract without them eating a bunch of salary. But that defeats the purpose. They are probably stuck with Semin too at $7 mill.

Yeah, Ward will only be traded to save some cash. That's if anyone wants him. Either way, they aren't getting any help back in a trade for him.

Pronger84
03-31-2014, 10:16 AM
Carolina has no reason to move Eric unless you give up a lot.

People always point to packages like Thonton and Phaneuf and say "see star players don't get good players back", but that is also why you never see them moved. If you want to pry Eric away you have to pay through the teeth and give them a reason to move him. Personally I'd gladly give them Kadri, Gardiner and a 1st. Thats a steal.

Disagree to an extent, if Carolina wants to truly get better it makes sense to trade him but yea they're not going to move him anything short of a kings ransom, they aren't desperate currently to just settle. Phaneuf wasn't a star when we acquired him, his career was at the bottom of the barrel and Calgary was desperate to unload him do to poor on ice play and bullshit going on with him and the vets in the dressing room, luckily for us Phaneuf was re-invted his game and is now an all around beast on the back end.

MyNameIsJonas
03-31-2014, 10:19 AM
Yeah, Ward will only be traded to save some cash. That's if anyone wants him. Either way, they aren't getting any help back in a trade for him.

100% dump, agreed.

leafman101
03-31-2014, 10:21 AM
Ward has barely played in two years, and when he has he hasn't been very good.

No one is agreeing to having him dumped on them. Especially with guys like Halak, Hiller, and Miller potentially available.

MyNameIsJonas
03-31-2014, 10:23 AM
Ward has barely played in two years, and when he has he hasn't been very good.

No one is agreeing to having him dumped on them. Especially with guys like Halak, Hiller, and Miller potentially available.

He still has the reputation as a Cup winning goalie.

Never underestimate the stupidity of NHL GM's.

cmaleski2
03-31-2014, 10:23 AM
Right, the Canes don't HAVE to trade Eric or Jordan Staal. The return will need to be favorable for the Canes. This isn't a fire sale going on, the return for Skinner, Jordan or Eric would have to be extremely high.

Any trade of Cam Ward wouldn't be about that comes back to Carolina in the trade, it would be about moving him and some of his money out of town. I envision the Canes eating 50% of his final 2 years and shipping him out to anywhere that will take him for minimal return coming back. That is salary they want and should dump. The problem for the Canes is that even after the Canes eat 50% of Cam's contract/cap hit, they might be hard pressed to find someone willing to take him, even for nothing. I expect they are going to try like heck just to get rid of him for nothing and be willing to eat 50% in the process.

....but Skinner and the Staals...not going to be traded unless the return is big. What defines a 'big return' remains to be seen.

Pronger84
03-31-2014, 10:42 AM
Yeah, Ward will only be traded to save some cash. That's if anyone wants him. Either way, they aren't getting any help back in a trade for him.

I wonder if Burke would be interested in him, he always loves a reclamation project.

BeLeafer
04-01-2014, 06:47 AM
I meant Reimer vs. Bernier and you clearly did too.

Clearly, since I explicitly said "team goaltending" and then you bolded it in your "huh" response.

BeLeafer
04-01-2014, 06:50 AM
I'm confused, what goaltending problems? We had two young goalies to see who can become the number 1, Bernier won, and looks like he could be a great goalie for years to come. This collapse has nothing to do with the goalies on this team.

Starting goaltending over the 8 game losing streak: .877 save percentage.

Nothing to see here, just move along.

This is much like the group think here on puck possession.

leafman101
04-01-2014, 07:09 AM
Everything has gone wrong. Can't just blame it on goaltending. Even with that shit goaltending they should get more than zero points.

BeLeafer
04-01-2014, 07:10 AM
I didn't just blame the goaltending. Anywhere.

Killer93
04-12-2014, 09:44 PM
Bump, so what do we want to see happen? Top priority is #2 dman and a solid top 6 forward.

zeke
04-12-2014, 10:00 PM
http://www.quirkyscience.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Explosion-Image-by-US-Department-of-Defense.jpg

zeke
04-12-2014, 10:00 PM
http://dash.ponychan.net/chan/files/src/132926079489.gif

zeke
04-12-2014, 10:02 PM
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7kn8zWXv51rsy50k.gif

KingTucker
04-12-2014, 10:23 PM
Bump, so what do we want to see happen? Top priority is #2 dman and a solid top 6 forward.

Keepers:
Top line
Gardielly
Phaneuf (?) (I'd certainly keep him)
Kadri (Unless we get a #1 centre in return)
Bernier

Reimer (I'd like to keep Reimer, he's quite decent but it looks like a divorce is coming. He said he didn't want to talk about his future here and that's never a good sign).

You obviously can't blow up the entire team, but the Leafs need a few top 4 D (heh) and a the very, very least a new coach.