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View Full Version : GDT: Leafs @ Bolts get kessel to 40



Killer93
04-08-2014, 07:37 PM
On now

CRL
04-08-2014, 07:37 PM
should we care?

Killer93
04-08-2014, 07:48 PM
Might have just propelled Habs to second round with Bishop hurt

TimHorton
04-08-2014, 07:51 PM
The ice in Tampa sucks fat dick.

mbow30
04-08-2014, 07:54 PM
The ice in Tampa sucks fat dick.

I HEARD THE ICE IN TAMPA HAS THE SAME NAME AS YOUR MOM

TimHorton
04-08-2014, 07:55 PM
You're just a racist, you hate all black women!

TheCountofMonteCristo
04-08-2014, 07:59 PM
Might have just propelled Habs to second round with Bishop hurt

we were there anyway but thanks for the assistance

where are the rest of the posters, only five posts?

mbow30
04-08-2014, 08:00 PM
bullshit. i love chocolate vanilla swirl.

TheCountofMonteCristo
04-08-2014, 08:02 PM
bullshit. i love chocolate vanilla swirl.

Jungle fever?

CRL
04-08-2014, 08:28 PM
jonasTSN1050: Hard to believe, but van Riemsdyk doesn't have a PP point since Jan. 30, Kessel with just one since Feb. 1.

blacksheep
04-08-2014, 08:30 PM
should we care?

Why should we care when the players clearly don't?

Leafyblue
04-08-2014, 08:46 PM
Halak not comfortable facing his old team?... What a big girls blouse.

Volcanologist
04-08-2014, 08:46 PM
man kessel is snakebit.

mbow30
04-08-2014, 08:47 PM
heh reims gonna reims.

Volcanologist
04-08-2014, 08:48 PM
**** you, Reimer.

Naz draws another though.

Killer93
04-08-2014, 08:49 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dd/Tank_T-34.JPG

Leafyblue
04-08-2014, 08:49 PM
Downgoesreimer ?

Habspatrol
04-08-2014, 09:10 PM
Might have just propelled Habs to second round with Bishop hurt

Thank you Leafs.

What happened?

Bleedsblue&white
04-08-2014, 09:28 PM
Right to the end dammit.
The bitter, bitter end.

Pronger84
04-08-2014, 09:31 PM
I had one on my old neighbours message me from Markham and she was saying how her son was still holding out hopes for the playoffs, I gave her quite the reality check about why they ain't making it.... when will Leaf fans wake up and realize this team is done and has been for close to a month now?

TimHorton
04-08-2014, 09:33 PM
Right to the end dammit.
The bitter, bitter end

Exactly this.

ForeverTML
04-08-2014, 09:42 PM
hehe

Columbus just won. Now it will be "mathematical".,...unless we can get 3 in the next 13 minutes. :beatdeadhorse5:

Great season, bunch of stiffs from the top down.

CRL
04-08-2014, 09:43 PM
I had one on my old neighbours message me from Markham and she was saying how her son was still holding out hopes for the playoffs, I gave her quite the reality check about why they ain't making it.... when will Leaf fans wake up and realize this team is done and has been for close to a month now?

for some reason western trips became lethal for this team, only this time it was aftershock

Pronger84
04-08-2014, 09:44 PM
for some reason western trips became lethal for this team, only this time it was aftershock

That's the thing though they took 2/3 of the Cali trip, maybe it got to their heads?

Feyd
04-08-2014, 09:46 PM
Will David Clarkson achieve the elusive 6 goal milestone before the season ends? Stay tuned, folks.

CRL
04-08-2014, 09:48 PM
That's the thing though they took 2/3 of the Cali trip, maybe it got to their heads?

it is same every year, some kind of deziese

Pronger84
04-08-2014, 09:49 PM
it is same every year, some kind of deziese

True, 3 huge collapses for the past 3 seasons... this team should be embarassed.

CRL
04-08-2014, 09:49 PM
.,...unless we can get 3 in the next 13 minutes. :beatdeadhorse5:


how? who? Bodie? Clarkson? Ashton? Orr? McSelke?

ForeverTML
04-08-2014, 09:54 PM
I was being sarcastic of course.

ForeverTML
04-08-2014, 10:05 PM
And thats that. Official.

<----------------

Love this team.

Wayward DP
04-08-2014, 10:07 PM
Man, that was a pathetic way to go out

blacksheep
04-08-2014, 10:11 PM
Double Dion is no captain. Hand the C to Kessel.

worm
04-08-2014, 10:11 PM
didnt want to help the habs?

Leafyblue
04-08-2014, 10:22 PM
Oh crap...I fell asleep. Did we win?

Pronger84
04-08-2014, 10:27 PM
Oh crap...I fell asleep. Did we win?

Tonight? No. Long term? Yes

Habspatrol
04-08-2014, 10:33 PM
didnt want to help the habs?

They took out Bishop... that's probably more help than a win.

KingTucker
04-08-2014, 10:42 PM
Double Dion is no captain. Hand the C to Kessel.

Kessel is pretty media-shy. I've been thinking of the "C" thing and the best thing might be to run with two or three Alternates until someone imposes themselves.
I'd love Kadri to get it down the road but he's too young right now and the Toronto media would quote-mine him and eat him alive. Not a fan of Lupul with the "C" either...

LeafGm
04-08-2014, 10:51 PM
Lupul with the C? No ****ing way.

corksens
04-08-2014, 10:54 PM
Out with a whimper.

This Kessel slump is making my pool too close for comfort.

Habsy
04-08-2014, 11:32 PM
What a shitty night for Leaf fans, not only does their team complete their tits up journey but they simultaneously helped the Habs by knocking out bishop. I know I'd be pissed.

JohnnyHolmes
04-08-2014, 11:56 PM
What a shitty night for Leaf fans, not only does their team complete their tits up journey but they simultaneously helped the Habs by knocking out bishop. I know I'd be pissed.

Losing to Ottawa and finishing behind us in the standings would be the cherry on top of this sundae.

hockeylover
04-09-2014, 12:45 AM
Losing to Ottawa and finishing behind us in the standings would be the cherry on top of this sundae.

I wouldn't mind that at this point. Higher the pick the better.

MindzEye
04-09-2014, 12:47 AM
yeah, after this shit show, if we steal the guy Ottawa wants at the draft again, that would be a bit of consolation.

But it's cool because Cowen is better than Kadri, right?

JackBurton
04-09-2014, 12:59 AM
At this point, does any Leaf fan care? Lose every game. The higher the pick, the better.

Ottawa was supposed to be the contender, not the Leafs.

Pronger84
04-09-2014, 01:07 AM
What a shitty night for Leaf fans, not only does their team complete their tits up journey but they simultaneously helped the Habs by knocking out bishop. I know I'd be pissed.

I'm a Leaf fan (have been since 1992) but I'm not pissed... actually I'm glad this happened. I'd be pissed if we won 6 of our final games and then were ousted due to a tiebreaker, that would be the worst possible thing to happen to this franchise. THIS what is playing out now is the best thing, because now no way can management be in denial about the state the Leafs are in, they now have the blindfolds ripped off them and can begin the lengthy process of legit fixing this team from the front office all the way down to the 4th line, best possible outcome and the Leafs are finally doing things the right way this time.

Pronger84
04-09-2014, 01:08 AM
At this point, does any Leaf fan care? Lose every game. The higher the pick, the better.

Ottawa was supposed to be the contender, not the Leafs.

To me its not even the pick, its the icing on the cake... the best thing is now management realizes how terribad this Leafs roster truly is.

JackBurton
04-09-2014, 01:08 AM
It is true, the proper steps will be taken now instead of if they made the final playoff spot. Carlyle can't be saved.

Pronger84
04-09-2014, 01:09 AM
Losing to Ottawa and finishing behind us in the standings would be the cherry on top of this sundae.

For once Holmes were on the same page here, we both want the Leafs to fall hard... albeit for different reasons. You want the Sens to overtake them because you just want to gloat, I want them to fall hard so they can be better in the long term.

Pronger84
04-09-2014, 01:10 AM
It is true, the proper steps will be taken now instead of if they made the final playoff spot. Carlyle can't be saved.

Exactly... I can't wait for him to be gone.

leafman101
04-09-2014, 08:56 AM
"Obviously, I'm disappointed – disappointed for Leafs Nation," said Phil Kessel, thick red stubble dotting his face after the team's 10th loss in the past 12 games. "Obviously it's not good enough. I haven't been good enough for the last 15 games. I need to be better.""Obviously I'm really disappointed and I feel like I've let a lot of people down," he said with some emotion.

"Obviously we didn't play well enough," Kessel said. "I think both ends of the rink we didn't play well enough. We obviously didn't get it done."

"(The fans) expect a lot from us. They love us. We need to be better these last 15 games. I think everyone's pretty disappointed."



Love Kessel apologizing and shouldering the blame for the collapse. Its not his fault at all. The guy carried the team this year and anytime his play fell of a bit the Leafs couldn't win a game. He needs some support. But it shows some great leadership for him to step up like that. He is one of only two guys on this team (Bernier) that doens't deserve any blame. But he's taking it on himself anyway.

JohnnyHolmes
04-09-2014, 09:02 AM
yeah, after this shit show, if we steal the guy Ottawa wants at the draft again, that would be a bit of consolation.

But it's cool because Cowen is better than Kadri, right?

Doesn't matter to me one bit. Anaheim.

Volcanologist
04-09-2014, 09:02 AM
The notion that Thrill is a non-caring milquetoast was always stupid. This guy wants to win, he may not have made the best choice re-signing with this franchise but we'll see.

Leafyblue
04-09-2014, 09:22 AM
Leafs will probably win the last few games 10-0.

JohnnyHolmes
04-09-2014, 09:30 AM
Leafs will probably win the last few games 10-0.

Probably not.

Wayward DP
04-09-2014, 09:36 AM
Love Kessel apologizing and shouldering the blame for the collapse. Its not his fault at all. The guy carried the team this year and anytime his play fell of a bit the Leafs couldn't win a game. He needs some support. But it shows some great leadership for him to step up like that. He is one of only two guys on this team (Bernier) that doens't deserve any blame. But he's taking it on himself anyway.

Obviously

Habsy
04-09-2014, 10:13 AM
Love Kessel apologizing and shouldering the blame for the collapse. Its not his fault at all. The guy carried the team this year and anytime his play fell of a bit the Leafs couldn't win a game. He needs some support. But it shows some great leadership for him to step up like that. He is one of only two guys on this team (Bernier) that doens't deserve any blame. But he's taking it on himself anyway.


"Obviously, I'm disappointed – disappointed for Leafs Nation," said Phil Kessel, thick red stubble dotting his face after the team's 10th loss in the past 12 games. "Obviously it's not good enough. I haven't been good enough for the last 15 games. I need to be better.""Obviously I'm really disappointed and I feel like I've let a lot of people down," he said with some emotion.

"Obviously we didn't play well enough," Kessel said. "I think both ends of the rink we didn't play well enough. We obviously didn't get it done."

"(The fans) expect a lot from us. They love us. We need to be better these last 15 games. I think everyone's pretty disappointed."



Obviously the word obviously is on sale... obviously.

Habsy
04-09-2014, 10:14 AM
Obviously

Dang nabbit.

:dita:

LeafGm
04-09-2014, 10:25 AM
Love Kessel apologizing and shouldering the blame for the collapse. Its not his fault at all. The guy carried the team this year and anytime his play fell of a bit the Leafs couldn't win a game. He needs some support. But it shows some great leadership for him to step up like that. He is one of only two guys on this team (Bernier) that doens't deserve any blame. But he's taking it on himself anyway.
Maybe it's just my imagination, but it seems like Phil's been talking and giving quotes to the media more than he ever has before since this collapse started. Good on him. And while he's right that he needed to be better these last 10-15 games, him and Bernier are pretty much the main reasons this team was competitive at all this year at any point.


The notion that Thrill is a non-caring milquetoast was always stupid. This guy wants to win, he may not have made the best choice re-signing with this franchise but we'll see.
It seems people easily mistake being quiet and introverted for not caring.

LeafGm
04-09-2014, 10:27 AM
Oh, and as for the Sens possibly finishing ahead of us in the standings, honestly, if that helps Sens fans cope with the disaster that this season has been for both the Leafs and the Sens, then more power to them. Once we're out of the playofs, I could really care less how things ultimately shake out in the standings.

corksens
04-09-2014, 12:03 PM
It definitely helps.

We both had a disaster of a season.

TheCountofMonteCristo
04-09-2014, 12:49 PM
Love Kessel apologizing and shouldering the blame for the collapse. Its not his fault at all. The guy carried the team this year and anytime his play fell of a bit the Leafs couldn't win a game. He needs some support. But it shows some great leadership for him to step up like that. He is one of only two guys on this team (Bernier) that doens't deserve any blame. But he's taking it on himself anyway.

true but he should have talked to the media and not just given a written statement

TheCountofMonteCristo
04-09-2014, 12:50 PM
Maybe it's just my imagination, but it seems like Phil's been talking and giving quotes to the media more than he ever has before since this collapse started. Good on him. And while he's right that he needed to be better these last 10-15 games, him and Bernier are pretty much the main reasons this team was competitive at all this year at any point.


It seems people easily mistake being quiet and introverted for not caring.

that isn't fair but it happens in my field too

often when discussing whether to keep an articled student, that argument is made by someone and I always say, just because someone doesn't do backflips when offered work doesn't mean they don't care.

hockeylover
04-09-2014, 02:37 PM
It definitely helps.

We both had a disaster of a season.

And to think, just a week ago you were trying to say that we were the ones grasping for something positive to take solace in.

mbow30
04-09-2014, 02:45 PM
true but he should have talked to the media and not just given a written statement

? he talked to the media. that wasn't a written statement.

TheCountofMonteCristo
04-09-2014, 02:58 PM
Mmm TSN implied he didnt go on camera and just gave a written statement.

blacksheep
04-09-2014, 04:22 PM
What difference does it truly make? He took the blame, like a good leader should.

Pronger84
04-09-2014, 06:24 PM
true but he should have talked to the media and not just given a written statement

Kessel doesn't owe the media squat, it's great he's taking accountability here and while he deserves some of the blame, at the same time the entire collapse isn't his fault either.... nice to see some accountability on this team.

TheCountofMonteCristo
04-09-2014, 06:30 PM
It was striking seeing his comments vs those by your captain. Captain took no blame, and basically didn't even say they collapsed, just that they worked hard or something to that effect.

Pronger84
04-09-2014, 06:38 PM
It was striking seeing his comments vs those by your captain. Captain took no blame, and basically didn't even say they collapsed, just that they worked hard or something to that effect.

Dions always IMO been a piss poor captain.

blacksheep
04-09-2014, 09:46 PM
It was striking seeing his comments vs those by your captain. Captain took no blame, and basically didn't even say they collapsed, just that they worked hard or something to that effect.

One of them is a true leader. The other is our captain.

mbow30
04-10-2014, 03:21 PM
nobody on the leafs does more in the community and to represent the brand than dion phaneuf. and I know that for a fact.

Pronger84
04-10-2014, 03:37 PM
nobody on the leafs does more in the community and to represent the brand than dion phaneuf. and I know that for a fact.

That's all fine and good he does a lot of charity work but what exactly has he done to lead this team on the ice? I've gained a lot of respect for Kessel though, it took a lot of maturity and balls (no pun) for him to apologize to the media for the collapse and to publicly take blame for his role in it... I have yet to see Dion do that, although I'm sure he'll read a script at the end of the season giving a fake speech.

Pronger84
04-10-2014, 03:37 PM
One of them is a true leader. The other is our captain.

This.

mbow30
04-10-2014, 03:38 PM
phaneuf has always been stand up, and he has done it with more microphones and scrutiny than anybody on the team.

phaneuf hasn't played well the past month, and he deserves his share of blame for the team falling apart. but you guys are way over the top.

Pronger84
04-10-2014, 03:43 PM
phaneuf has always been stand up, and he has done it with more microphones and scrutiny than anybody on the team.

phaneuf hasn't played well the past month, and he deserves his share of blame for the team falling apart. but you guys are way over the top.

Standup? I'm not denying he hasn't been a solid player for us and easily our best blueliner but there is a difference between uttering words and following through with them, Phaneuf has been absent on the ice during the collapse and I have yet to see him truly lead this team ever since he has been here. I'm not saying he's 100% to blame for the Leafs shitting the bed, but he definetly plays a part in it and he has yet to step up and take any sort of blame... it's pretty telling when a meek guy like Kessel is the 1st one to take a stand and take some blame for the shape this team is in.

mbow30
04-10-2014, 03:46 PM
a guy who plays 25 minutes a night against the other team's top lines every shift, starts 35% of his shifts in the d-zone, is the first to stand before the media after every game (but one), who plays through injury, who is put on the ice for the final THREE MINUTES of a playoff game 7, who spends 6 nights a doing when he's in the city doing charity events... is leading the team.

a few bad games and him not saying 'I suck and I need to be better' in one interview doesn't change that.

Bleedsblue&white
04-10-2014, 03:47 PM
phaneuf has always been stand up, and he has done it with more microphones and scrutiny than anybody on the team.

phaneuf hasn't played well the past month, and he deserves his share of blame for the team falling apart. but you guys are way over the top.
Typical though.

I can remember Aki Berg getting booed at the Skills competition. It might even have happened to Antropov. I stood up and cheered at the top of my lungs...being an ass at a ****ing skills competition?
Anyways, that mentality is always ready to go in Leafland.

By the time Summer is over people will be saying he is the reason we missed the playoffs.

Montana
04-10-2014, 03:49 PM
a guy who plays 25 minutes a night against the other team's top lines every shift, starts 35% of his shifts in the d-zone, is the first to stand before the media after every game (but one), who plays through injury, who is put on the ice for the final THREE MINUTES of a playoff game 7, who spends 6 nights a doing when he's in the city doing charity events... is leading the team.

a few bad games and him not saying 'I suck and I need to be better' in one interview doesn't change that.

Here, here.



Kessel, Phaneuf, & Bernier are the three most important foundational pieces this team has at the moment (with Rielly & JVR right there as well).....those guys are the least of our issues. It's who we surround them with that matters.

mbow30
04-10-2014, 03:51 PM
“I just didn’t play well enough, bottom line. I wasn’t even close to the level that I have to play and I accept responsibility for that.”



now tell me who said that and then kindly go....

mbow30
04-10-2014, 03:53 PM
Young D-man Morgan Rielly has a locker alongside Phaneuf at both the Air Canada Centre and the practice rink in Etobicoke. “I personally know that when it’s just the team around, he’s a great captain, a great guy to be around. He’s always positive, trying to get the guys going. He’s been a huge influence on me.”

Rielly recounts how Phaneuf had him over to his home during training camp. “We’re always talking, going back and forth. The way some people outside the room see him, it’s not accurate. He gets criticized a lot but he’s a great leader and a huge aspect of our team.”

Pronger84
04-10-2014, 03:53 PM
a guy who plays 25 minutes a night against the other team's top lines every shift, starts 35% of his shifts in the d-zone, is the first to stand before the media after every game (but one), who plays through injury, who is put on the ice for the final THREE MINUTES of a playoff game 7, who spends 6 nights a doing when he's in the city doing charity events... is leading the team.

a few bad games and him not saying 'I suck and I need to be better' in one interview doesn't change that.

I disagree. I never said he didn't play well for most of this season, but when the team went south where was Phaneuf? He was playing by far his worst hockey at the team's biggest stretch of the season, again not exactly leading out there and when your team-mate tells you to "shut the **** up" out on the ice you know there is issues.

Charity work is a good quality and shows Phaneuf to be a decent person but it's not related to leadership. 3 big collapses in 3 different years here with him as captain is defintely a huge question mark on his ability to be a good captain for sure.... again the collapse isn't 100% on him but **** he needs to take some blame here for it.

leafman101
04-10-2014, 03:54 PM
Meh. They all said Sundin was a shitty captain and had him traded every offseason for years too.

Pronger84
04-10-2014, 03:55 PM
Meh. They all said Sundin was a shitty captain and had him traded every offseason for years too.

Say what u want about Sundin in the end but he took this team on his back every year, maybe not the most vocal guy but he lead by example out there.

mbow30
04-10-2014, 03:55 PM
Charity work is a good quality and shows Phaneuf to be a decent person but it's not related to leadership. 3 big collapses in 3 different years here with him as captain is defintely a huge question mark on his ability to be a good captain for sure.... again the collapse isn't 100% on him but **** he needs to take some blame here for it.

of course the way phaneuf conducts himself off the ice is related to leadership. it has everything to do with leadership.

and nobody is not blaming phaneuf. you, however, ARE putting 100% of it on him by implying that (i) he needed to play better and (ii) he needed to be a better leader to pick the team up.

leafman101
04-10-2014, 03:56 PM
Say what u want about Sundin in the end but he took this team on his back every year, maybe not the most vocal guy but he lead by example out there.

Sundin had plenty of disappointing seasons as captain. So did Messier.

One guy can't do much on his own.

Killer93
04-10-2014, 03:56 PM
I saw a stat where hands down Phaneuf/Gunnar were playing the toughest minutes out of any defensive pair in the NHL. Would love to see what Phaneuf can do with a true defensive partner

Pronger84
04-10-2014, 03:57 PM
of course the way phaneuf conducts himself off the ice is related to leadership. it has everything to do with leadership.

and nobody is not blaming phaneuf. you, however, ARE putting 100% of it on him by implying that (i) he needed to play better and (ii) he needed to be a better leader to pick the team up.

How am I putting it 100% on him? I have always said the issues on the Leafs run deeper then any one individual... however Phaneuf like everybody else needs to take blame too and also he is the captain he needs to be held to a bit of a higher standard then other players.

Pronger84
04-10-2014, 03:58 PM
Sundin had plenty of disappointing seasons as captain. So did Messier.

One guy can't do much on his own.

Agreed, it's a team sport. But you have to admit guys like Messier and Sundin took those teams on their backs and did everything possible to help give them the best chance at winning.

mbow30
04-10-2014, 03:59 PM
Or, a second pair that can play against the other team's top line.

Gunnarsson is fine on that unit. Find his Hjalmarsson and play Phaneuf with Rielly or Gardiner...

leafman101
04-10-2014, 03:59 PM
And Phaneuf didn't? He was literally their only reliable dman this year and played essentially every single tough minute of the season.

A dman can't do much more than that.

Volcanologist
04-10-2014, 04:00 PM
The best kind of leadership is consistently producing on the ice. Sundin destroys Phaneuf in that regard, at least so far. And he played on plenty of shitty teams too.

I've been a Dion defender and think he has been over-criticized historically, but it would be foolish to ignore his failures at critical times for us in recent seasons. Again I am talking strictly on-ice, I have no idea how he is in the locker room and am aware of the charity work done by Phaneuf and other high-profile athletes.

Pronger84
04-10-2014, 04:02 PM
And Phaneuf didn't? He was literally their only reliable dman this year and played essentially every single tough minute of the season.

A dman can't do much more than that.

Again.... he's easily our best blueliner and he plays the toughest minutes but NO i don't feel he's a good leader, if he were he'd be playing his best of hockey of the season down the stretch run but did he? No, he's been invisible during the collapse.

Pronger84
04-10-2014, 04:02 PM
The best kind of leadership is consistently producing on the ice. Sundin destroys Phaneuf in that regard, at least so far. And he played on plenty of shitty teams too.

I've been a Dion defender and think he has been over-criticized historically, but it would be foolish to ignore his failures at critical times for us in recent seasons. Again I am talking strictly on-ice, I have no idea how he is in the locker room and am aware of the charity work done by Phaneuf and other high-profile athletes.

Co signing this post!

mbow30
04-10-2014, 04:03 PM
The best kind of leadership is consistently producing on the ice. Sundin destroys Phaneuf in that regard, at least so far. And he played on plenty of shitty teams too.

I've been a Dion defender and think he has been over-criticized historically, but it would be foolish to ignore his failures at critical times for us in recent seasons. Again I am talking strictly on-ice, I have no idea how he is in the locker room and am aware of the charity work done by Phaneuf and other high-profile athletes.

tough to consistently produce when you're constantly set up for failure. seriously, the guy has gotten absolutely screwed over by this coaching staff. they took away his slap shot, and they make him do something that no defenseman in the league on this side of suter is forced to do -- play against the other team's top lines AND play on the top powerplay unit AND play on the top penalty kill unit.

his ice time is down a bit this year but his role is the same and the matchups are the same. he also has to start 65% of his shifts on the defensive side.

again -- he needed to be better down the stretch, but the guy has been totally set up for failure.

leafman101
04-10-2014, 04:05 PM
Phaneuf never disappeared. He was the guy on the ice for every single tough shift.

No one else in the league was put under the same strain this year.

Pronger84
04-10-2014, 04:07 PM
tough to consistently produce when you're constantly set up for failure. seriously, the guy has gotten absolutely screwed over by this coaching staff. they took away his slap shot, and they make him do something that no defenseman in the league on this side of suter is forced to do -- play against the other team's top lines AND play on the top powerplay unit AND play on the top penalty kill unit.

his ice time is down a bit this year but his role is the same and the matchups are the same.

again -- he needed to be better down the stretch, but the guy has been totally set up for failure.

How are they setting up for failure? The best defencmen play in all situations, he is being rewarded with a lot of ice time and yes I can understand that it can be gruelling on a player to be out there for 25-30mins a game but Randy cut some of it down. Take away his slapshot? How can you be sure it's the coaching staff.... maybe Dion finally realized that his shots were missing the net and decided to change up? That's actually a smart move on his end.... makes him more unpredictable out there.

It sounds to me like your trying to make justifications for Phaneuf by blaming everyone BUT him.

leafman101
04-10-2014, 04:08 PM
Lots of things went wrong for the Leafs this year. Phaneuf, Kessel and Bernier weren't among them.

leafman101
04-10-2014, 04:09 PM
The best defencmen play in all situations, he is being rewarded with a lot of ice time and yes I can understand that it can be gruelling on a player to be out there for 25-30mins a game but Randy cut some of it down.

Not a single one of the other best defensemen in the league came remotely close to playing the same kind of role phaneuf did this year. Not even close.

MindzEye
04-10-2014, 04:10 PM
How are they setting up for failure? The best defencmen play in all situations,

Name the defenders that play in all situations

leafman101
04-10-2014, 04:11 PM
One more time:


QoC rel Corsi
1. Phaneuf 2.150
2. Gunnar 2.010
3. Josi 1.938
4. Weber 1.844
5. Hjalmersson 1.744
6. Oduya 1.700
7. Carlson 1.622
8. Hedja 1.596
9. Chara 1.577
10. OEL 1.528

Other than the small sample size last year, typically no one is over 2.000. The only one close is Weber and Josi and they are in the same position as the Leafs. A bunch of young dmen that they can't rely on and they didn't have a good year.

leafman101
04-10-2014, 04:12 PM
He was put in an unwinable situation, and went out every day and did it. Never complained, never made excuses. Always taking responsibility.

Most players wouldn't handle it the same way (see: Grabo).

mbow30
04-10-2014, 04:14 PM
How are they setting up for failure? The best defencmen play in all situations, he is being rewarded with a lot of ice time and yes I can understand that it can be gruelling on a player to be out there for 25-30mins a game but Randy cut some of it down.

it isn't the number of minutes. it's that every shift he plays is against the other team's top line. he plays the most difficult minutes in the league.

and then he also plays on the top special teams units.

compare that to a guy like doughty, who starts over 50% of his shifts in the offensive zone and on a team that basically balances first line matchups amongst all of its pairs (with a slight edge to the doughty pair); or keith, who starts about 55% of his shifts in the offensive zone and plays almost exclusively against second lines.



Take away his slapshot? How can you be sure it's the coaching staff.... maybe Dion finally realized that his shots were missing the net and decided to change up? That's actually a smart move on his end.... makes him more unpredictable out there.

what a bunch of nonsense.

first of all, the idea that his shots 'were missing the net' is a myth. he was consistently amongst the league leaders in shots on goal amongst defensemen and, as leafman pointed out at the start of the year, his % of shot attempts that were shots on goal was about average for defensemen who take ~200 shots per year.

as for you questioning how they took it away from him -- it's simple. it's almost impossible to get those shots through when you're playing the strong side on the pp. his best weapon (the one timer) is out of play.


It sounds to me like your trying to make justifications for Phaneuf by blaming everyone BUT him.

there is very little to blame him for, outside of a rough march. which i have roundly criticized him for, consistently, over the past month.

leafman101
04-10-2014, 04:16 PM
Being a leader isn't necessarily about going out there and succeeding against all odds. Its showing up every day, and giving it all you have, even in insanely tough situations.

There wasn't a player in the NHL tested on ice to the extent Phaneuf was this season. And he handled it like a pro.

Pronger84
04-10-2014, 04:23 PM
Name the defenders that play in all situations

1. Suter- 29:43 TOI/pg (23:34 E/S, 3:44/PP, 2:25 SH)
2. Karlsson- 27:07 TOI/pg (21:30 E/S, 4:02PP, 1:33 SH)
3. Campbell- 26:57 TOI/pg (21:08 E/S, 3:53PP, 1:55 SH)
4. Weber- 26:54 TOI/pg (21:10 E/S, 3:26 PP, 2:36SH)
5. Josi- 26:24 TOI/pg (20:46 E/S, 3:05PP, 2:32 SH)

Phaneuf- 23:40/TOI/pg (17:31 E/S, 3:17PP, 2:50SH)

leafman101
04-10-2014, 04:24 PM
Again:


QoC rel Corsi
1. Phaneuf 2.150
2. Gunnar 2.010
3. Josi 1.938
4. Weber 1.844
5. Hjalmersson 1.744
6. Oduya 1.700
7. Carlson 1.622
8. Hedja 1.596
9. Chara 1.577
10. OEL 1.528

Other than the small sample size last year, typically no one is over 2.000. The only one close is Weber and Josi and they are in the same position as the Leafs. A bunch of young dmen that they can't rely on and they didn't have a good year.

MindzEye
04-10-2014, 04:34 PM
1. Suter- 29:43 TOI/pg (23:34 E/S, 3:44/PP, 2:25 SH)
2. Karlsson- 27:07 TOI/pg (21:30 E/S, 4:02PP, 1:33 SH)
3. Campbell- 26:57 TOI/pg (21:08 E/S, 3:53PP, 1:55 SH)
4. Weber- 26:54 TOI/pg (21:10 E/S, 3:26 PP, 2:36SH)
5. Josi- 26:24 TOI/pg (20:46 E/S, 3:05PP, 2:32 SH)

Phaneuf- 23:40/TOI/pg (17:31 E/S, 3:17PP, 2:50SH)

Suter & Weber...yep

Karlsson doesn't face opposition top match ups and gets given (for good reason) a lot of offensive zone faceoff situations where as Dion doesn't. Josi wouldn't be in that situation if he wasn't Weber's running mate (similar to how Brodin gets put in situations he wouldn't because he's Suter's. Campbell, also, doesn't face oppositions top match ups.

So even within this group, there's really only 2. That was kinda my point.

Wayward DP
04-10-2014, 05:04 PM
Not to mention that neither Karlsson nor Campbell shoulder as much of a load killing penalties.

Pronger84
04-10-2014, 05:50 PM
Suter & Weber...yep

Karlsson doesn't face opposition top match ups and gets given (for good reason) a lot of offensive zone faceoff situations where as Dion doesn't. Josi wouldn't be in that situation if he wasn't Weber's running mate (similar to how Brodin gets put in situations he wouldn't because he's Suter's. Campbell, also, doesn't face oppositions top match ups.

So even within this group, there's really only 2. That was kinda my point.

You asked me to provide a list of blueliners who play in all situations and I gave you the list, actually was going to list more but I didn't have time earlier so I stuck with 5.

I never denied Phaneuf didn't play tough minutes against the opposition, he does and he does a good job at it (which is why I said in an earlier post not to trade him). My argument wasn't that he was good all around first pairing blueliner, my argument was/still is that I feel he hasn't done a good job at being a leader on the Leafs captain-wise.

MindzEye
04-10-2014, 08:26 PM
You asked me to provide a list of blueliners who play in all situations and I gave you the list, actually was going to list more but I didn't have time earlier so I stuck with 5.

Your definition of "all situations" is shit. Dion is 1st unit PP, 1st unit PK, top opposition match up in 5 on 5.

Those players you listed, other than Weber & Suter, don't play in "all situations" as it relates to Phaneuf.


I never denied Phaneuf didn't play tough minutes against the opposition, he does and he does a good job at it (which is why I said in an earlier post not to trade him). My argument wasn't that he was good all around first pairing blueliner, my argument was/still is that I feel he hasn't done a good job at being a leader on the Leafs captain-wise.

The value of a captain for leadership is overblown. It's the same as team toughness. Having a few tough guys on a team doesn't make a team tough, nor does a team being soft negate how tough those few guys are. The leadership problem in Toronto is that there are no lieutenants, not that the captain is a bad leader. I love Lupul, but he's a a guy whose questionable professionalism got him moved around the league a lot and though I think he's grown up a bunch since then, he's still that guy....and he's one of the leaders in the locker room. Most of our core are kids and most of our veterans are scrubs. That equation doesn't usually add up to a team with a high amount of "intangibles".

blacksheep
04-10-2014, 10:25 PM
The best kind of leadership is consistently producing on the ice. Sundin destroys Phaneuf in that regard, at least so far. And he played on plenty of shitty teams too.

I've been a Dion defender and think he has been over-criticized historically, but it would be foolish to ignore his failures at critical times for us in recent seasons. Again I am talking strictly on-ice, I have no idea how he is in the locker room and am aware of the charity work done by Phaneuf and other high-profile athletes.

This.
Every other recent captain for the Leafs has done far better at leading by example on the ice. Sundin. Gilmour. Clark. All of them.
I have no issue with "Celine" Dion's play, (other than down the stretch), but clearly, he did not consistently produce like our previous captains, who were thrown into the fire just like "Celine" was.

Pronger84
04-10-2014, 10:42 PM
Your definition of "all situations" is shit. Dion is 1st unit PP, 1st unit PK, top opposition match up in 5 on 5.

Those players you listed, other than Weber & Suter, don't play in "all situations" as it relates to Phaneuf.



The value of a captain for leadership is overblown. It's the same as team toughness. Having a few tough guys on a team doesn't make a team tough, nor does a team being soft negate how tough those few guys are. The leadership problem in Toronto is that there are no lieutenants, not that the captain is a bad leader. I love Lupul, but he's a a guy whose questionable professionalism got him moved around the league a lot and though I think he's grown up a bunch since then, he's still that guy....and he's one of the leaders in the locker room. Most of our core are kids and most of our veterans are scrubs. That equation doesn't usually add up to a team with a high amount of "intangibles".

The players I listed did and do play all situations, the only area Dion plays more then them would be shorthanded (exluding Suter, Weber), again not sure why were debating in this I'm in agreement with you, Phaneuf is thrown out there in any type of game and he's done well.

As for the core? JVR/Bozak/Kessel/Phaneuf/Bernier would be our core- You act as if this team if the "core" is young and outside of JVR and Bernier this core has been in the NHL for quite some time: Bozak (5 seasons, 28 years old) , Kessel (8 seasons, 26 years old), Phaneuf (11 seasons, 29 years old) while this core may not be a bunch of grizzled vets they aren't exactly rookies either... there comes a time to stop making excuses for this core, they are for the most part in the primes of their careers and with 3 collapses in 3 years with virtually the same core eventually you have to question them.

MindzEye
04-10-2014, 11:48 PM
The players I listed did and do play all situations

If they're not playing match up against opposition first lines, then they're not playing in "all situations" in the way Phaneuf does. Which has been the point a few people keep trying to point out to you, for a few pages now. You have too broad a definition of "all situations" when considering the context of the discussion.


As for the core? JVR/Bozak/Kessel/Phaneuf/Bernier would be our core- You act as if this team if the "core" is young and outside of JVR and Bernier this core has been in the NHL for quite some time: Bozak (5 seasons, 28 years old) , Kessel (8 seasons, 26 years old), Phaneuf (11 seasons, 29 years old) while this core may not be a bunch of grizzled vets they aren't exactly rookies either... there comes a time to stop making excuses for this core, they are for the most part in the primes of their careers and with 3 collapses in 3 years with virtually the same core eventually you have to question them.

It's like you're choosing to ignore than our 3rd highest scoring forward is 23 years old, that our #3-4 defenders are 20 & 23 years old. Why would you question your good players when the team collapses instead of the bad players? Guys like Kessel, Phaneuf, etc are the only reason the club was in the position to collapse in the first place. I did a quick analysis of our offensive depth compared to Eastern Conference playoff teams last week and our core forwards were the highest scoring top 6 in the ECF, and our depth were by far the worst of the top 10 teams in the East. Yet people always want to focus on the core players when they were fantastic for most of the season, where we get gutted is when our top 6 and Dion Phaneuf are off the ice.

Pronger84
04-10-2014, 11:58 PM
If they're not playing match up against opposition first lines, then they're not playing in "all situations" in the way Phaneuf does. Which has been the point a few people keep trying to point out to you, for a few pages now. You have too broad a definition of "all situations" when considering the context of the discussion.



It's like you're choosing to ignore than our 3rd highest scoring forward is 23 years old, that our #3-4 defenders are 20 & 23 years old. Why would you question your good players when the team collapses instead of the bad players? Guys like Kessel, Phaneuf, etc are the only reason the club was in the position to collapse in the first place. I did a quick analysis of our offensive depth compared to Eastern Conference playoff teams last week and our core forwards were the highest scoring top 6 in the ECF, and our depth were by far the worst of the top 10 teams in the East. Yet people always want to focus on the core players when they were fantastic for most of the season, where we get gutted is when our top 6 and Dion Phaneuf are off the ice.

I'm not ignoring guys like Kadri/Gardiner/Rielly.... I just feel they aren't part of the core just yet, if they're still around in 2 years or then yea I'll consider them to be in that category. I'm also well aware this collapse goes deeper then the core, actually I'll say this.... if it weren't for the Kessel line/Bernier/Phaneuf-Gunnar pairing this season, this team would be a lottery team duking it out with the likes of Calgary and Edmonton for worst in the league. Yes, your right... after the 1st line the depth dwindles drastically and that IMO is another big part of the collapse too, because when the top line wasn't firing the 2nd/3rd lines really didn't step it up to provide the offense.

MindzEye
04-11-2014, 08:55 AM
I just feel they aren't part of the core just yet

One is our 3rd highest scorer, the other two were top 4 defenders for us...at 23 & 20. If you're not considering them members of our core, we'll add "core" to the list of definitions you're not doing well with.