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mbow30
04-09-2014, 10:27 AM
While we may disagree about the extent of the changes required to bring this team back to playoff contention, I think we all agree that significant changes are required. I think somebody started a 'The Offseason Thread' already, but I'd like to see a thread that consolidates our ideas about what this team should do, and what it can do.

Here are my five steps to fix this team.

Step 1

The thing we all agree on: clean house. The entire coaching staff needs to go. Same with the front office. From a management perspective a clean break from the Burke era is required. That isn't a condemnation of Burke -- just that the status quo is clearly not working. So, Nonis/Poulin/Loiselle out and same with Carlyle/Cronin/(whoever the other assistants are).

I would also clear out the pro scouting department. Their job is to find guys who (a) bring value and (b) address team needs. The Leafs' pro scouting department has failed badly on both counts repeatedly over the past decade. With the exception of Macarthur, the few good pickups seem to have fallen into their laps (Raymond, Lupul, Gleason-ish) rather than arrived as a result of any due diligence or a sharp eye for a hidden gem. Their big recommendations have all fallen flat on their face, from their underrating of Steen/overrating of Stempniak to the collection of awful UFA signings this team has made over the past number of years. There simply has to be accountability there because, at the very best, these people aren't helping the team.

In terms of replacing management/coaching/scouting, it is on Leiweke to find the right guy to head this ship. They need a President of hockey ops who understands how to build and manage a professional hockey team. Maybe it's Nicholson. Maybe Leiweke can pry somebody away from another team. I won't speculate beyond that because we don't know how far the power of persuasion can go. Everybody could be in play, or nobody currently employed could be. We'll see. Once Leiweke finds his guy, though, all the other pieces fall into place. It will be on them build a front office, pro scouting department and ultimately decide who the most suitable coach is given their vision for this team (whatever it may be).

I would leave the amateur scouts in place. For the most part, the Leafs have done well with their first round picks (when they've been able to draft) for most of the past 15 years. They have drafted serviceable NHL'ers in the late rounds, and few of their first round picks have been complete busts. They have done fairly well picking high (with the exception of Schenn -- Kadri and Rielly were both great picks), and have turned out some solid picks with their mid-round firsts (Tlusty, Steen, Rask, hopefully Percy and Gauthier).

Step 2

Address the centre position. You win with strength up the middle. Teams that have two quality first line centres are always competitive. Always. Crosby-Malkin, Sakic-Forsberg, Yzerman-Fedorov, Lecavalier-Richards, Sakic-Forsberg and even Kopitar-Richards and Bergeron-Krejci.

You are never going to win a cup with Bozak-Kadri. I like both players and think that one of those guys can hold down a spot in a contender's top six, but not both. Of course, the problem is that the type of upgrade required is almost never available - by my count, the last time a bona fide first line centres changed teams was when Mats left the Leafs. Before that? Thornton.

With that said, this sounds like an offseason where they might be able to upgrade . If we are to believe the rumours, Eric Staal and Jason Spezza are both going to be on the block this summer. If I am the Leafs GM, I don't settle for one. I do whatever I can to get both of them. It will be pricey, and both players are starting to get up there in years, but it would give this team a legitimate shot at contention, and probably its best shot to win. I can't think of a team with two centres of that caliber that wasn't competitive. Having those two on the ice for 70% of each game would allow the Leafs to compete with anybody. It would be the sort of maneuver that would make them an immediate contender.

There would also likely be some appeal in Bozak and Kadri to be included in packages for those players, as both are younger, cheaper and productive enough to jump into Carolina or Ottawa's top six.

Some combination of

Kadri/Bozak, Finn/Gardiner/Gauthier, Leivo/McKegg/Brown, Picks

for either player could probably get it done.

And before you dismiss it because the players will be 31 and 30 -- would anybody be complaining today if the Leafs acquired Thornton for that sort of package 4-5 years ago? Which is to say, these guys are quality players, and given their size should be able to continue to produce even when they're slow and can't skate. They should both have at least another 5 seasons of quality play left, and probably a few more beyond that.

Step 3

2014 First + Finn/Percy/other prospect for Myers

The next steps will be moving guys (likely Lupul, Reimer, and hopefully Gleason) to find the cap space to make this work...

Habsy
04-09-2014, 10:36 AM
Is there a cliff's/cole's notes version available? Thanks.

MyNameIsJonas
04-09-2014, 10:37 AM
Wouldnt making one trade for one of those C and signing Paul Stastny be a tad easier and effective enough?

mbow30
04-09-2014, 10:37 AM
what do you want - the fox news of hockey message boards?

MyNameIsJonas
04-09-2014, 10:37 AM
what do you want - the fox news of hockey message boards?

You've been pissy lately, everything okay?

mbow30
04-09-2014, 10:38 AM
Wouldnt making one trade for one of those C and signing Paul Stastny be a tad easier and effective enough?

they'd be better off keeping bozak or kadri than signing stastny.

the idea is to put this team over the top. you aren't a bonafide contender with stastny as your second line C.

but you are if eric staal is...

Habsy
04-09-2014, 10:38 AM
Have you seen CNN lately? When FOX is a better news source than you then you know you're slipping.

As for your plan, it makes sense but it's easier said than done.

MyNameIsJonas
04-09-2014, 10:40 AM
they'd be better off keeping bozak or kadri than signing stastny.

the idea is to put this team over the top. you aren't a bonafide contender with stastny as your second line C.

but you are if eric staal is...

Fair, but that's a tall tall order.

I dont know if the Leafs can offer enough where it makes sense for them and makes sense for Ottawa to deal him to a rival.

I see Spezza going West to St Louis, Vancouver or Chicago.

mbow30
04-09-2014, 10:40 AM
Have you seen CNN lately? WHen FOX is a better news source than you then you know you're slipping.

good point


As for your plan, it makes sense but it's easier said than done.

I agree.. but I think it's doable.

I'd be fine overpaying for all three of those guys. People are too obsessed with prospects. You win with talent, not hypothetical talent... and if I get a chance to model my team like that I do. As a Leafs fan I think back to the Mats years, and how amazing it would have been if when he came off the ice, his clone came on to the ice.

mbow30
04-09-2014, 10:41 AM
Fair, but that's a tall tall order.

I dont know if the Leafs can offer enough where it makes sense for them and makes sense for Ottawa to deal him to a rival.

I see Spezza going West to St Louis, Vancouver or Chicago.

I don't think that Ottawa has any bargaining power here. And they might be able to extract more out of the Leafs if Spezza is willing to sign with his home town team (Which 100% he would... guaranteed).

mbow30
04-09-2014, 10:42 AM
and spezza to Chicago is unlikely. what do they have to trade? saad?

Habsy
04-09-2014, 10:42 AM
I can see the Leafs pursuing Stastny. If they can land him they'll probably let Bolland and Kulemin walk to afford him.

leafman101
04-09-2014, 10:42 AM
JVR and Gardiner for Staal.

Kadri for Spezza.

If the Leafs are willing to move core pieces not many teams would be able to compete.

Aquiring one of those guys and keeping Kadri would be sufficient though.

mbow30
04-09-2014, 10:43 AM
yeah, I meant to include JVR on my list.

MyNameIsJonas
04-09-2014, 10:48 AM
and spezza to Chicago is unlikely. what do they have to trade? saad?

Tuevo
Leddy
14 1st
Saad
Clendening

MyNameIsJonas
04-09-2014, 10:48 AM
Kadri for Spezza gets it done for sure

MyNameIsJonas
04-09-2014, 10:49 AM
I can see the Leafs pursuing Stastny. If they can land him they'll probably let Bolland and Kulemin walk to afford him.

Stastny has been linked to Chicago as well with their need for a 2LC, 8M in space and the fact Stastny has massive ties to Quenneville.

But as the top C free agent i suspect he will price himself out of Bowman's range

leafman101
04-09-2014, 10:50 AM
Chicago doesn't have the cap space to be a factor in a Staal/Spezza deal.

MyNameIsJonas
04-09-2014, 10:51 AM
Chicago doesn't have the cap space to be a factor in a Staal/Spezza deal.

If they can dump Bickell on someone they might.

MyNameIsJonas
04-09-2014, 10:53 AM
Kesler also is a lock to be moved this summer also, he should be part of the super jew plan too.

leafman101
04-09-2014, 10:53 AM
Even still that wouldn't be enough. Already have $69 mill committed next year.

And anyways good luck with that.

Boogmour
04-09-2014, 10:54 AM
I've always been a huge fan of Thornton but, hes going to be 35 in like a couple months. Would be hard to part with any core pieces for a guy who could be in the twilight of his career, definitely looks like a Leiweke type of guy though. Spezza, I don't know what it is about him I don't like, probably that hes played for Ottawa all this time. I don't think he has the character that would help invigorate the team, or that Leiweke would be looking for.

I'd say Thornton, if cost is right, and Staal are the centermen to go after.

As for as the front office, definitely needs to be cleaned out. Can't wait to see what Leiweke has in mind...Bob Nicholson anybody?

MyNameIsJonas
04-09-2014, 10:54 AM
Yeah, i guess i saw it more possible when we thought the cap was going to 78-80 days.

I wouldn't rule out a Hjalmarsson for a 2LC deal either. There are kids in Rockford ready to make the jump

leafman101
04-09-2014, 10:56 AM
IMO they also need a guy who is just a solid, reliable dman. Doesn't necessarily have to be some huge upside guy, or a top pairing guy. Just a guy you can throw out there and rely on for quality minutes in any situation.

If the Canucks are cleaning house I'd look at Bieksa.

MyNameIsJonas
04-09-2014, 10:57 AM
IMO they also need a guy who is just a solid, reliable dman. Doesn't necessarily have to be some huge upside guy, or a top pairing guy. Just a guy you can throw out there and rely on for quality minutes in any situation.

If the Canucks are cleaning house I'd look at Bieksa.

Edler too, and the Hawk blogger i read says TOR likes Oduya, who could be moved for pick(s)

leafman101
04-09-2014, 11:00 AM
Yeah Oduya too.

Guys like Edler and Myers are good players and would be great additions but they come with a price tag. IMO they don't necessarily need to go that impactful. A guy like Bieksa or Oduya that is just solid and reliable would be huge for this team.

MyNameIsJonas
04-09-2014, 11:01 AM
With Chicago likely wanting to free cap, Oduya could be real cheap too.

BG
04-09-2014, 11:04 AM
I'm not sold on Leiweke, guys got his fingers in too many pies here. I know that ditching him is not an option - but if he has had any say in personnel (Bernier/Clarkson), then he's effectively made Nonis a lapdog.

Nonis did a very nice job of cleaning up after Burke and helping develop our youngsters - he was also able to fit everyone under the cap this season. But his silence, and inability to shake things up late in the season makes him look like a lame duck.

leafman101
04-09-2014, 11:06 AM
IMO Clarkson screams of Nonis trying to get a "carlyle" player for his coach, not being pushed from above. Don't think he gets to pass the buck on that one.

Going after small name players isn't really Leiweke's MO.

I read an interesting article on his time in LA and he is aggressive in trying to push the GM, but if the GM has the balls to push back he is fine with it. He pushed Lombardi hard to go after Kovy, but Lombardi held firm. If Nonis has become a lapdog then he doesn't have what it takes to be a GM here.

Volcanologist
04-09-2014, 11:14 AM
Step 1:

Agreed, except for the the amateur scouts. They haven't produced nearly enough impact talent for my liking, mostly just ok players. It's quantity but not enough quality IMO.

If you're going to flush the whole thing, flush the whole thing. The new GM will likely want his own coaching and scouting personnel anyway.

Step 2:

We'd be much better at centre, but pretty bare on the wing after the top line with Lupul gone. Probably keeping a guy like Raymond around makes more sense then, as he's got the speed and skill to complement those other guys as a support scorer. provided he's at a reasonable cost.

But really, this kind of approach probably makes sense right now. The Leafs have a few good young pieces, but other than perhaps Rielly I'm not seeing stardom anywhere. There's not enough there in the system to provide all the players needed around Kessel, Bernier, JVR, and Rielly. To be a contender anytime soon we will need to bring in more major foundational players from other teams, as we traditionally do.

Step 3:

I'm a fan of Myers. I think he could be a 40+ point dman again if he didn't play on the weakest offensive team in the league.

I'd rather not trade our first again, though. It's the siamese twin of constantly having to get other teams talent by trade or signing. but if the guy is young enough, and Myers fits nicely in that regard, maybe you do it, I don't know.

mbow30
04-09-2014, 11:18 AM
We'd be much better at centre, but pretty bare on the wing after the top line with Lupul gone. Probably keeping a guy like Raymond around makes more sense then, as he's got the speed and skill to complement those other guys as a support scorer. provided he's at a reasonable cost.

But really, this kind of approach probably makes sense right now. The Leafs have a few good young pieces, but other than perhaps Rielly I'm not seeing stardom anywhere. There's not enough there in the system to provide all the players needed around Kessel, Bernier, JVR, and Rielly. To be a contender anytime soon we will need to bring in more major foundational players from other teams, as we traditionally do.


who cares about the wing. when you have star centres you can have shit wingers and they'll get the job done. i.e. with mats, the issue was never on the wings.. it was what they lost when they took him off the ice.

that aside, the wing is exactly where the leafs have found good value over the past few years... lupul, Raymond, macarthur, etc.

Volcanologist
04-09-2014, 11:29 AM
who cares about the wing. when you have star centres you can have shit wingers and they'll get the job done. i.e. with mats, the issue was never on the wings.. it was what they lost when they took him off the ice.

that aside, the wing is exactly where the leafs have found good value over the past few years... lupul, Raymond, macarthur, etc.

Oh no, I agree with your Big Fat Jewish Makeover for the most part. I would rather have my talent in the middle too if I had to pick, and there's no question that's a better team than any we've had recently. We do already have two 30 goal wingers, maybe we have enough there with Thrill/JVR locked in for the forseeable future.

Having said that the other option could be leaving Bozak at 2C, trading for one of Spezza/Staal and signing Vanek as a free agent while keeping the assets you would have spent on the other centre.

leafman101
04-09-2014, 11:37 AM
As mbow mentioned these guys are so rarely traded that if one becomes available you absolutely have to do whatever it takes. Kessel, Phaneuf, Bernier and Rielly are really the only untouchables on this team.

If you can add a prototypical big #1 center, whether its the draft, free agency or trade, you get it done. Those opportunities are few and far between. If you can add two of them you are laughing.

LeafOfFaith
04-09-2014, 11:59 AM
Getting rid of the coaching staff, yes.

Totally revamping the roster to bring in Staal and Spezza, no.

It'd be stupid to just give up on young players who've shown incredible potential. JVR is a stud 30/30 guy at 24 years old and cheap for years and you want to trade him? Gardiner is rounding into form and became an offensive powerhouse in the last 30 games. Bozak flirted with GPG status all year when healthy. Lupul had an off year but is an excellent veteran leader. You hold onto these guys.

Overhauling the coaches is pretty big change. Then you tweak the roster by upgrading the bottom 6 and Franson. You draft a really good player with the 1st, and maybe use assets to trade up and grab a star center.

Less is more with a team that was basically in third place with 12 games to go.

mbow30
04-09-2014, 12:05 PM
None of those guys will ever have the impact of a 6'3 80 point centre.

mbow30
04-09-2014, 12:09 PM
I mean, just look at where this team is now and where it was 7-8 years ago.

all the leafs had in 06 and 07 was sundin and kaberle.

and despite that, and despite the laughable league worst goaltending, they were a 90 point bubble team. just like they have been the past few years with a much deeper, more talented roster.

give me to sundin's. I don't care how old they are. You will be a contender. period.

Corky27
04-09-2014, 12:10 PM
Let all the UFAs walk. No more overpaying 3rd liners. We already are shackled with the most expensive 3rd/4th liner in league history. Let the farm guys fill out the bottom 2 lines. And clean up the blue line. I personally would gut the management however. This one is done.

mbow30
04-09-2014, 12:17 PM
The biggest mistake coming out of this season might ultimately be that none of Holzer, MacWilliam, Percy or Granberg got into a single game.

Those guys could potentially fill out a bottom pair as soon as next season. Unfortunately, the Leafs didn't give themselves an opportunity to find out where those player stand and will have to either go on a hope/prayer that they can perform, leave the 5/6/7 slots open next season and gift wrap them to rookies, or once again overpay on bottom pair, and potentially unnecessary, players.

Habsy
04-09-2014, 12:24 PM
Stastny has been linked to Chicago as well with their need for a 2LC, 8M in space and the fact Stastny has massive ties to Quenneville.

But as the top C free agent i suspect he will price himself out of Bowman's range

I'm sorry, is this thread called "Three steps to fix the Hawks"?

Volcanologist
04-09-2014, 12:24 PM
If the Leafs bring in star talent, there won't be any choice. they have to dump all of these guys like Bolland, Kulemin, etc and replace them with either kids or Raymond type bargains.

Habsy
04-09-2014, 12:26 PM
Guys like Bolland and Kulemin are far easier to replace than acquiring star talent. If the opportunity presents itself you sacrifice them without question.

mbow30
04-09-2014, 12:26 PM
One of the smartest things you can do is look for Raymond type bargains. These guys are always out there (and, given the contract caps, will be increasingly available). The Leafs best signings since the lockout have been Raymond and Macarthur...

Just keep doing that to fill out your depth.

If they don't work out, no harm no foul. You ear mark them into your payroll for the year and then they're gone.

On the other hand, if a long term signing doesn't work out -- like every single long term free agent signing this team has made post lockout, spare Beauchemin -- you screw yourself.

Volcanologist
04-09-2014, 12:33 PM
I think part of it is we've been trying to add the wrong kind of players as free agents.

we've given those long term deals to these gritty intangibles type guys who aren't necessarily the most skilled. your system should produce those kinds of players as a matter of course. instead those contracts should be given to guys with above average talent/production, always.

blacksheep
04-09-2014, 01:32 PM
I think part of it is we've been trying to add the wrong kind of players as free agents.

we've given those long term deals to these gritty intangibles type guys who aren't necessarily the most skilled. your system should produce those kinds of players as a matter of course. instead those contracts should be given to guys with above average talent/production, always.

I think that's too big a part of it, actually. When signings like Clarkson can't provide more than any Marlie player for less than 1/3 the price, and without the length of that deal, your team is not spending properly.

BG
04-09-2014, 01:36 PM
The more I think about it, the more I think this team just needs a reset.

Injuries, suspensions and the Olympics really screwed up the season.

Our forward depth really killed us when the top-line had quiet nights, Kadri, Lupul and Franson took a step back, and our defence didn't do much offensively.

I'd be okay with a coaching change, as Carlyle never really cleaned up any of the bad habits. This young group needs a motivational guy, Randy just seems to carry too much negativity.

mbow30
04-09-2014, 01:37 PM
Every team coped with injuries, suspensions and the Olympics, though.

If this was a one-off thing I would agree, but this is the third season in a row that the team fell off a cliff at crunch time.

Meanwhile, this isn't the young group that it was 3-4 years ago. Kessel is in his prime and scoring at a ppg. Phaneuf turns 29 tomorrow. Lupul is in his 30s. Kulemin is turning 28. Franson 27. Gunnarsson 28.

They have a few kids on the blueline but Rielly and Gardiner played in supporting roles, for the most part.

Other than Kadri and some of the 7mpg 4th liners who saw some ice this year, none of the forwards are particularly young.

MyNameIsJonas
04-09-2014, 01:44 PM
Doug McLean actually did some reasonable speculating the past few days suggesting Dave Bolland to Florida.

They have the room to overpay him, the need for some vets, and he has ties to Dale Tallon.

mbow30
04-09-2014, 01:46 PM
why is that even a discussion topic?

24/7 hockey coverage is the worst. especially since they don't have many guys on air who have anything interesting to talk about.

and why are you talking about it in this thread?

corksens
04-09-2014, 01:50 PM
Gotta give credit to Leafs management for not caving on the Franson hold out.

mbow30
04-09-2014, 01:52 PM
the truth is that they gave themselves no choice. they had to hold firm, because they didn't have cap space to sign him.

that's just a big stroke of luck. they'd be so screwed if they gave that guy $4-5 per.

MyNameIsJonas
04-09-2014, 01:52 PM
the truth is that they gave themselves no choice. they had to hold firm, because they didn't have cap space to sign him.

that's just a big stroke of luck. they'd be so screwed if they gave that guy $4-5 per.

he'd almost be unmoveable at 5M per season.

mbow30
04-09-2014, 01:53 PM
I think there are teams out there that would pay him. But he's got way more value as a guy who just requires a ~$2mn qualifier than he would at $5mn.

MyNameIsJonas
04-09-2014, 01:55 PM
I think there are teams out there that would pay him. But he's got way more value as a guy who just requires a ~$2mn qualifier than he would at $5mn.

they might pay him, but i doubt they'd give up decent assets and pay him.

Volcanologist
04-09-2014, 01:57 PM
yeah, it was pure circumstance. Franson either had to take what the Leafs gave him or sit, because there was no cap space for more.

thank god I will never have to worry about seeing Cody Franson in a Leaf uniform ever again after this week.

Wayward DP
04-09-2014, 01:59 PM
The big two for me would be 1) Upgrade our centres; and 2) find an Oduya/Hjalmarsson to play with Gunnarsson as the shut down pair and free up Phaneuf. Then, maybe 3) would be do something to address the apparent 'leadership' issues we have. Bring in a vet, coach, whatever. I've defended these guys for quite some time, but yeah, choking hard three years in a row... something's gotta give.

Wayward DP
04-09-2014, 02:00 PM
yeah, it was pure circumstance. Franson either had to take what the Leafs gave him or sit, because there was no cap space for more.

thank god I will never have to worry about seeing Cody Franson in a Leaf uniform ever again after this week.

Let's hope...

budman89
04-09-2014, 02:08 PM
JVR and Gardiner for Staal.

Kadri for Spezza.

If the Leafs are willing to move core pieces not many teams would be able to compete.

Aquiring one of those guys and keeping Kadri would be sufficient though.

I don't think the Sens would ever trade Spezza to TO. If Tavares is as disgruntled with the Isle as I have heard they should try to make a pitch in that direction...

BG
04-09-2014, 02:09 PM
Every team coped with injuries, suspensions and the Olympics, though.

If this was a one-off thing I would agree, but this is the third season in a row that the team fell off a cliff at crunch time.

Meanwhile, this isn't the young group that it was 3-4 years ago. Kessel is in his prime and scoring at a ppg. Phaneuf turns 29 tomorrow. Lupul is in his 30s. Kulemin is turning 28. Franson 27. Gunnarsson 28.

They have a few kids on the blueline but Rielly and Gardiner played in supporting roles, for the most part.

Other than Kadri and some of the 7mpg 4th liners who saw some ice this year, none of the forwards are particularly young.

Toronto had an incredible number of injuries and suspensions, Clarkson, Kadri, Phaneuf were all suspended. At one point the team had McClement as it's #2 center due to injury.

..and as for the Olympics, sure every team had a condensed schedule and an unruly number of back-to-back situations - Toronto just didn't respond well, particularly at the end of the season. Was it a conditioning problem? Coaching?

The core of this team, including guys like Lupul and Phaneuf still have a 4-5 year window to win... and as our veterans fade, guys like Kadri and Rielly will be entering their prime.

leafman101
04-09-2014, 02:11 PM
Toronto is actually ranked relatively low on the $$ lost to injury this year. They had a rough stretch in december, but other teams like the Wings have had it way worse.

mbow30
04-09-2014, 02:13 PM
They might have 4-5 year windows, but they have all failed to get the job done repeatedly for three years. It's time for some changes here.

As for the injuries -- they really didn't have an incredible number of injuries. Besides Bolland, the third line centre, not one player missed significant time to injury.

And suspensinos.... a few games here or there shouldn't matter. Most teams lose most players for a few games a year. That is no excuse.

Especially in light of how everything unfolded, with the team going from comfortably in a playoff spot to on the outside looking in by dropping 10 of 12 in March/April...

Wayward DP
04-09-2014, 02:19 PM
Toronto had an incredible number of injuries and suspensions, Clarkson, Kadri, Phaneuf were all suspended. At one point the team had McClement as it's #2 center due to injury.

..and as for the Olympics, sure every team had a condensed schedule and an unruly number of back-to-back situations - Toronto just didn't respond well, particularly at the end of the season. Was it a conditioning problem? Coaching?

The core of this team, including guys like Lupul and Phaneuf still have a 4-5 year window to win... and as our veterans fade, guys like Kadri and Rielly will be entering their prime.

This just isn't true. Toronto was (I'm fairly certain) one of the healthiest teams in the league this year, especially at key positions.

Not a single one of our d-men missed time to injury, save a few games from Fraser early, and Ranger late.

Bozak missed time, and Bolland missed time. Lupul missed time. JVR, Kessel, Kadri, Raymond were all healthy. Kulemin missed a little time. Aside from Bolland though, none of our injuries were significant.

For comparison's sake, look at team's like Detroit and Pittsburgh. Detroit had their two best players miss significant chunks of the season, not to mention tons of injuries to 2nd/3rd liners. The majority of Pittsburgh's top-6 d-men were injured throughout the season.

And, our worst play coincided with us having a practically fully healthy roster (i.e. inexcusable).

leafman101
04-09-2014, 02:25 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BkpF3KkIEAAX8wx.jpg

Bleedsblue&white
04-09-2014, 03:03 PM
And, our worst play coincided with us having a practically fully healthy roster (i.e. inexcusable).
Except for Bernier, who ended up being the most important injury of the season. If Reimer doesn't shit the bed they don't bring Bernier back so soon, and we're probably in.

Don't get me wrong, that's not good enough; sure your goalie is supposed to save your bacon, but not every single game. There's lots of work to do, but I firmly believe that if Bernier had not been hurt after L.A, we're in and Columbus is out.

So while we did have our roster, the one guy that we really needed wasn't there. In a way it's probably better this way; playoffs may have staved off some necessary changes so we may be better off...depending what Tim L does now.

Wayward DP
04-09-2014, 03:19 PM
Except for Bernier, who ended up being the most important injury of the season. If Reimer doesn't shit the bed they don't bring Bernier back so soon, and we're probably in.

Don't get me wrong, that's not good enough; sure your goalie is supposed to save your bacon, but not every single game. There's lots of work to do, but I firmly believe that if Bernier had not been hurt after L.A, we're in and Columbus is out.

So while we did have our roster, the one guy that we really needed wasn't there. In a way it's probably better this way; playoffs may have staved off some necessary changes so we may be better off...depending what Tim L does now.


Yeah, fair, I actually tend to agree with this assessment.

Lost in all the hysterics is just how awful our goaltending was on the 8-game slide.

blacksheep
04-09-2014, 04:18 PM
Lost in all the hysterics is just how awful our goaltending was on the 8-game slide.

I was generally in Reimer's corner this season. I felt he had more to contribute than we took advantage of.
But that 8-game slide was purely on his back. There's no excuse for the manner in which he simply played his way off this team late in the season. No excuse at all.
Don't let the door hit you on the way out, James.

leafman101
04-09-2014, 04:21 PM
Everything has been awful the last few weeks.

Arguably everything was awful most of the season, just the last few weeks Kessel and Bernier weren't playing out of their minds to bail us out.

mbow30
04-09-2014, 04:24 PM
Yeah, fair, I actually tend to agree with this assessment.

Lost in all the hysterics is just how awful our goaltending was on the 8-game slide.

what hysterics, and on whom was that lost?

most here roundly criticized reimer.

reimer sucking for 8 games doesn't mean, however, that there aren't other big issues with this team.

this is the third year in a row that they've flamed out like this. the entire team wilted.

the goaltending didn't help, and with better goaltending they probably win a few of those games and get in at the 7th or 8th seed. but that would have just masked some of the very big issues with this team, from coaching to the personnel.

mbow30
04-09-2014, 04:25 PM
Everything has been awful the last few weeks.

Arguably everything was awful most of the season, just the last few weeks Kessel and Bernier weren't playing out of their minds to bail us out.

yup.

kessel was on pace for 90+ points and bernier supplying 925+ goaltending for most of the season.

once those numbers dropped the team was DOA.

this is a broken team. they played a very poor brand of hockey, and there were a lot of very poor individual efforts.

Bleedsblue&white
04-09-2014, 04:34 PM
mbow,
I agree with your general ideas, and as I said, I think making the playoffs might have masked necessary changes. If this changes the coaching staff, and we figure out who is wheat and who is chaff, we could go from laughingstock to serious threat fairly quickly.

I believe Bernier is for real, and that is a leg up right there.

BG
04-09-2014, 04:35 PM
The players appeared to have given up on Reimer, and rarely gave the extra effort required to help his success.

They gave up on Carlyle (a few times this season), and gave up on Reims.

mbow30
04-09-2014, 04:37 PM
mbow,
I agree with your general ideas, and as I said, I think making the playoffs might have masked necessary changes. If this changes the coaching staff, and we figure out who is wheat and who is chaff, we could go from laughingstock to serious threat fairly quickly.

I believe Bernier is for real, and that is a leg up right there.

agreed on Bernier.

I understand the weeding out method, but from where I stand I'd rather just go out and get guys who have already proven that they're wheat...

mbow30
04-09-2014, 04:37 PM
The players appeared to have given up on Reimer, and rarely gave the extra effort required to help his success.

They gave up on Carlyle (a few times this season), and gave up on Reims.

if that's the case then this whole team, from leadership on down, needs to be gutted.

blacksheep
04-09-2014, 04:39 PM
The players appeared to have given up on Reimer, and rarely gave the extra effort required to help his success.

They gave up on Carlyle (a few times this season), and gave up on Reims.

Carlyle has been tuned out since before Xmas, and Reimer was one of the first to tune him out.

Pronger84
04-09-2014, 06:20 PM
if that's the case then this whole team, from leadership on down, needs to be gutted.

I don't necessairly believe they have given up on Reimer, I mean for the majority of the season they have been outworked most games this season... I do agree we have zero leadership on this team tho.

Blueman
04-09-2014, 06:59 PM
The Leafs biggest problem is not sucking for one more year. It's not Carlysle, the system, the players, etc - it's we should have sucked balls and got a top pick last year instead of making the playoffs in a shortened who cares season.

Imagine this team with Nathan Mackinnon on it.

The Leafs need to stick with Randy and just suck more next year. Draft an impact player (McDavid anyone), and then compete as your very young core improves with age. Shame we didn't just tank last year instead, but it's not too late.

Pronger84
04-09-2014, 07:02 PM
The Leafs biggest problem is not sucking for one more year. It's not Carlysle, the system, the players, etc - it's we should have sucked balls and got a top pick last year instead of making the playoffs in a shortened who cares season.

Imagine this team with Nathan Mackinnon on it.

The Leafs need to stick with Randy and just suck more next year. Draft an impact player (McDavid anyone), and then compete as your very young core improves with age. Shame we didn't just tank last year instead, but it's not too late.

I disagree with this, we have skill and adding another skilled guy doesn't fix what is broken on this team. As for Randy, its clear he doesn't fit here, if it hasn't workred the past 2 years what makes u think things will turn around in year 3?

Blueman
04-09-2014, 07:06 PM
I disagree with this, we have skill and adding another skilled guy doesn't fix what is broken on this team. As for Randy, its clear he doesn't fit here, if it hasn't workred the past 2 years what makes u think things will turn around in year 3?

Read my post - what in it says I want him to turn it around next year?

Good job on using the quote function though

Volcanologist
04-09-2014, 07:07 PM
The Leafs biggest problem is not sucking for one more year. It's not Carlysle, the system, the players, etc - it's we should have sucked balls and got a top pick last year instead of making the playoffs in a shortened who cares season.

Imagine this team with Nathan Mackinnon on it.

The Leafs need to stick with Randy and just suck more next year. Draft an impact player (McDavid anyone), and then compete as your very young core improves with age. Shame we didn't just tank last year instead, but it's not too late.

what happens if you tank and then don't get McDavid? you realize that is the far likelier outcome right?

leafman101
04-09-2014, 07:08 PM
The Leafs have zero chance of tanking for McDavid without stripping the team of everything. They were terrible this year and might not even get a top 10 pick.

Blueman
04-09-2014, 07:08 PM
Doesn't have to be McDavid, there are lots of top end talent in that draft

leafman101
04-09-2014, 07:09 PM
The Leafs just aren't a bottom 5 team. Thats not a mistake.

Blueman
04-09-2014, 07:10 PM
The Leafs just aren't a bottom 5 team. Thats not a mistake.

Yes, but that's because they aren't trying hard enough

leafman101
04-09-2014, 07:11 PM
So what? They should trade JVR and Kessel to add more top picks. Isn't that kind of pointless?

You don't gut the team of skilled players that were top 5 picks a few years afo so you can add skilled players at the draft again. Its nonsensical.

Keep adding, not removing.

Blueman
04-09-2014, 07:13 PM
So what? They should trade JVR and Kessel to add more top picks. Isn't that kind of pointless?

You don't gut the team of skilled players that were top 5 picks a few years afo so you can add skilled players at the draft again. Its nonsensical.

Keep adding, not removing.

Easy there peaches, where do I say gut the team?

leafman101
04-09-2014, 07:13 PM
How else do you tank?

Can't have it both ways. Either gut the team and tank, or keep moving forward. Otherwise you are just stuck in no mans land.

This team just isn't bad enough to get a top 5 pick.

GEEMAN
04-09-2014, 07:45 PM
JVR and Gardiner for Staal.

Kadri for Spezza.

If the Leafs are willing to move core pieces not many teams would be able to compete.

Aquiring one of those guys and keeping Kadri would be sufficient though.

Makes no sense my friend . The Leafs lack depth moving JVR creates a hole on the top line , and Lupul is too fragile to take JVR `s role .

Secondly Kadri would have to be part of any of these deals .

Thirdly , the Leafs are not ready to compete for years , your D is atrocious . Do you want Staal and Spezza now or 3 years ago ?

These dudes look like they are starting their decline years , Jason is Lupul version 2 , they have both played some hard hockey on their odometer .

You acquire these guys when you are ready to win now , and you arent , plus Spezza is a UFA after next year and Staal 2 years from now , and you will be put in a spot to grossly overpay players on the wrong side of 30 .

GEEMAN
04-09-2014, 07:57 PM
How else do you tank?

Can't have it both ways. Either gut the team and tank, or keep moving forward. Otherwise you are just stuck in no mans land.

This team just isn't bad enough to get a top 5 pick.

Agreed , upper brass wont settle for a true rebuild job, not a chance.

BeLeafer
04-09-2014, 07:57 PM
Booting Carlyle and his crew of tools to the curb is priority #1 without any doubt. Just an incredible display of shitty coaching. Just because we've seen a lot of that since they got rid of Quinn doesn't mean you stick with it or stop looking for good coaching.

In terms of the pro scouting staff ... yeah, obvious second area of sweeping the ranks.

Nonis I'm somewhat ambivalent about but lean toward turfing him and his group outside of the amateur scouting department.

In terms of the team, a better collection of centres would be nice at any time. Still don't think it's easy to get a read on the personnel issues with the awesome misuse of talent by Carlyle. Definitely get rid of Clarkson whatever it takes.

Most obvious personnel needs are, imo: a) steady vet that can eat minutes on the blueline, and; b) bring back some genuine toughness and work ethic (losing Grabs and Leo hurt the team a lot ...).

Hopefully the next coach can better manage the goaltending.

mbow30
04-09-2014, 07:58 PM
Makes no sense my friend . The Leafs lack depth moving JVR creates a hole on the top line , and Lupul is too fragile to take JVR `s role

1) it's way, way, way more important to have depth at centre than on the wing. this current leafs team says all you need to know about that.

2) it's way, way way easier to deal with a lack of depth on the wing than at centre. pittsburgh is a perennial contender with a pretty pedestrian group of wingers. boston competes with a collection of second line wingers. when you have centres like spezza or staal you can put second line caliber players with them and have still get first line production. just like the leafs used to have with sundin. of course, one of those guys would also get to play wth kessel.


Secondly Kadri would have to be part of any of these deals .

jvr/gardiner is a pretty damn good starting point, and carolina/ottawa would be hard pressed to get a package that has better pieces than those two.


Thirdly , the Leafs are not ready to compete for years , your D is atrocious . Do you want Staal and Spezza now or 3 years ago ?

part of the reason why the D is 'atrocious' is because the leafs centres aren't very good in their own zone, and the team can't establish a cycle (entirely a result of their lack of size at centre). the D needs to improve, but they have a ton of pieces from within that are going to help, including a budding top pair defenseman in rielly. they could use a veteran who can play tough minutes and stabilize the second pair. that aside, several of the young guys should be ready to help out next year. also, a big part of hte problem this year was franson who spent most of the year playing close to 20 minutes per game. he will be addition by subtraction from a defensive standpoint.

but, ultimately, a lot of this team's defensive problems are addressed by adding size and skill up the middle.


These dudes look like they are starting their decline years , Jason is Lupul version 2 , they have both played some hard hockey on their odometer .

You acquire these guys when you are ready to win now , and you arent , plus Spezza is a UFA after next year and Staal 2 years from now , and you will be put in a spot to grossly overpay players on the wrong side of 30 .

people were saying the same thing about joe thornton 5 years ago (when thornton was the same age that staal and spezza are now).

don't think anybody would be sitting here today complaining had they traded for thornton 5 years ago. and they'd still be reaping the benefits.

these guys might not have 100 point seasons lefti n them, but they are still capable ppg guys, and should be able to continue to put up those numbesr given that they rely on their size and ability to work the cycle rather than their speed and acceleration...not unlike sundin.

and having said that, these guys WOULD prepare this team to win now. if you have spezza and staal up the middle you are one of the top teams in the league. period.

manofleafs
04-09-2014, 08:10 PM
Any credible sources on Tim L going after Shanny? I know kypreos reported it, but has anyone else heard anything about it? I personally would love to see Shanny come in, doesnt really matter in which role, brings in character to the team.

trujaysfan
04-09-2014, 08:12 PM
Any credible sources on Tim L going after Shanny? I know kypreos reported it, but has anyone else heard anything about it? I personally would love to see Shanny come in, doesnt really matter in which role, brings in character to the team.

Bobo aka bobby mac confirmed it

mbow30
04-09-2014, 08:12 PM
bob mackenzie reported it as well

BG
04-09-2014, 08:12 PM
..and having said that, these guys WOULD prepare this team to win now. if you have spezza and staal up the middle you are one of the top teams in the league. period.

So why are the Sens and the Hurricanes not top teams in the league?

mbow30
04-09-2014, 08:13 PM
the sens and canes have spezza AND staal?

mbow30
04-09-2014, 08:15 PM
if you have two high quality ppg centres with size.. you are going to be a playoff team. period.

i can't think of a single modern era team with two centres of their caliber taht wasn't AT LEAST a playoff team. in fact, i think that just about every single one of those teams was a perennial contender.

Hoss
04-09-2014, 08:52 PM
I was interested when I heard the Shanahan name....for this reason.

Lieweke wants to make a splash with a name of some kind.

He can't do much with the roster as the cap is keeping him locked down. So where can he make a splash? Coaching.

Everyone agreed that Nicholson and Gretz were the names, but why did Shanahan's name come up?

I really think that Lieweke wants Babcock. Shanahan and Babcock are former player coach, that really grew together in Detroits Hayday.

Babcock has said that he didn't want to leave Detroit until his kids were out of highschool and I think this year that happens. He also has one year left on his deal, so I think Lieweke could make them an offer they couldnt refuse.

Babcock has done everything to be called a great coach. He likes the spotlight, and would become a GOD if he could turn around the Leafs. The players would have no excuse in not listening to the best coach in the nhl, and if they didn't improve, they know it ain't the coaches problem.

That leaves the GM spot? I am not 100% sold on someone who hasn't done it consistently, but you can't argue how well it would work to have Shanahan as President of Hockey Ops, Nicholson as GM and Babcock as head coach.

This is why I think Shanahan's name has been thrown in by Lieweke. Gretz doesn't have the connections to the coaching world as Shanahan does to the best coach in the NHL.

This is where my money is on.

blacksheep
04-09-2014, 09:31 PM
Doesn't have to be McDavid, there are lots of top end talent in that draft

... and every one of them a crapshoot. Aki Berg was a top draft pick.
I disagree entirely with the tank nation idea. Build on what we have, and build UPWARDS, not downwards.

blacksheep
04-09-2014, 09:38 PM
Booting Carlyle and his crew of tools to the curb is priority #1 without any doubt. Just an incredible display of shitty coaching. Just because we've seen a lot of that since they got rid of Quinn doesn't mean you stick with it or stop looking for good coaching.

Funny thing about Quinn. During the regular season, the Quinn Leafs had to fight tooth and nail just to make the playoffs, mostly because they didn't have much beyond Mats and Cujo / Belfour to get them in. But once into the playoffs, they were almost unbeatable (or in the case of the Sens, unstoppable. lol) He did his job very well with what he had to work with.
We haven't had that since him. I know we don't have a team of the best young skill available, but we certainly don't have a team so bad that they are destined to crash and burn each season. Wilson and his boys, and now Carlyle and his boys, have not got it done like Quinn did, or the late Burns before him.

soco22
04-09-2014, 09:39 PM
Nicholson > Shanny to be prez. Don't want a rookie coming in here who only has experience as a player or being a ****en "sheriff". Nicholson has likely amazing contacts at all levels that he could bring in. Tho not the experience of running a nhl team, think running team canada at all levels (CHL and nhl scouting/coaching, GMs,) qualifies as an experience that is similar enough.

mbow30
04-09-2014, 09:39 PM
same shit with two different coahces, one of whom won a cup, antoher who came to toronto with a reputation as a top coach.

those guys both deserve their share of blame, but so do the players. they simply have to be accountable.

mbow30
04-09-2014, 09:40 PM
Nicholson > Shanny to be prez. Don't want a rookie coming in here. Nicholson has likely amazing contacts at all levels that he could bring in. Tho not the experience of running a nhl team, think running team canada at all levels (CHL and nhl scouting/coaching, GMs,) qualifies as an experience that is similar enough.

not sure what to think about him.

he'd make sense in leiweke's position. not sure he has any real hockey pedigree, though. heading team canada is one of the easiest jobs in the world.

of course, like you said, he does have some pretty great contacts and presumably would be bringing people aboard to make hockey decisions.

blacksheep
04-09-2014, 09:42 PM
As much as I'd love to have Babcock here, I don't see him coming here, even if Shanny comes here.

soco22
04-09-2014, 09:45 PM
not sure what to think about him.

he'd make sense in leiweke's position. not sure he has any real hockey pedigree, though. heading team canada is one of the easiest jobs in the world.

of course, like you said, he does have some pretty great contacts and presumably would be bringing people aboard to make hockey decisions.

Prez just needs contacts and to be a person the GM can talk to for major decisions. Think Nicholson could surround us with quality ppl at all levels in the organization. Heck, hire shanny as a vp too.

We have a shitload of money. Need a strong voice at the very top (timmy), then just put a shit load of money everywhere to bring in talented execs, scouts, GM, assistant GMs, coaches for everything, medical etc etc. We can easily afford 20 mill/year for non-players... Use it.

blacksheep
04-09-2014, 09:48 PM
There's no cap on management... or scouts... or coaches...

soco22
04-09-2014, 09:56 PM
****, we should have 29 pro accounts each following a team, an assistant GM that acts as our marlies GM, we should have the best trainers and coaches for the big team and then second best for the marlies. Our amateur scouting department should be able to house a town. Our exec team should be made up of hall of famers, a shit ton of Stanley cup rings and guys that have built championships.

Money ****en talks. We have a shitload of it, but we don't have the best of anything when it comes to management/coaching/scouting.

Volcanologist
04-09-2014, 10:02 PM
Nicholson would seem to make a good choice as President. He and Leiweke have the contacts and strings to pull to get us worthy candidates to fill out the GM, scouting, and coaching positions.

I guess there's the possibility Shanahan could be good too, but while I get the "easy Team Canada job" argument I still think that makes Nicholson more qualified than Shanahan to be top hockey ops guy for an NHL team.

blacksheep
04-09-2014, 10:17 PM
Nicholson would seem to make a good choice as President. He and Leiweke have the contacts and strings to pull to get us worthy candidates to fill out the GM, scouting, and coaching positions.

Contacts is a great buzzword, but it never means much. We often get a GM like Burke who has "contacts" and can swing some good trade deals our way, but we still never make it to the prize.
We need results, not contacts.
Throw boatloads of money at some great pro and amateur scouts, and a real coaching team. There's no cap there, and the Leafs are one of the few teams in the league that can dump more than most in those areas. Get the right people in management, and the "contacts" will create themselves.

BeLeafer
04-10-2014, 08:02 AM
Funny thing about Quinn. During the regular season, the Quinn Leafs had to fight tooth and nail just to make the playoffs, mostly because they didn't have much beyond Mats and Cujo / Belfour to get them in. But once into the playoffs, they were almost unbeatable (or in the case of the Sens, unstoppable. lol) He did his job very well with what he had to work with.
We haven't had that since him. I know we don't have a team of the best young skill available, but we certainly don't have a team so bad that they are destined to crash and burn each season. Wilson and his boys, and now Carlyle and his boys, have not got it done like Quinn did, or the late Burns before him.

That's not even close to true. There was only one year where they squeaked in prior to them installing The Idiot as GM. Most often they were close or at the top of their division/conference heading into the playoffs.

The key thing Quinn was masterful at doing when the playoffs started, was getting his run and gun teams to play lock down hockey.

Boogmour
04-10-2014, 09:12 AM
I was interested when I heard the Shanahan name....for this reason.

Lieweke wants to make a splash with a name of some kind.

He can't do much with the roster as the cap is keeping him locked down. So where can he make a splash? Coaching.

Everyone agreed that Nicholson and Gretz were the names, but why did Shanahan's name come up?

I really think that Lieweke wants Babcock. Shanahan and Babcock are former player coach, that really grew together in Detroits Hayday.

Babcock has said that he didn't want to leave Detroit until his kids were out of highschool and I think this year that happens. He also has one year left on his deal, so I think Lieweke could make them an offer they couldnt refuse.

Babcock has done everything to be called a great coach. He likes the spotlight, and would become a GOD if he could turn around the Leafs. The players would have no excuse in not listening to the best coach in the nhl, and if they didn't improve, they know it ain't the coaches problem.

That leaves the GM spot? I am not 100% sold on someone who hasn't done it consistently, but you can't argue how well it would work to have Shanahan as President of Hockey Ops, Nicholson as GM and Babcock as head coach.

This is why I think Shanahan's name has been thrown in by Lieweke. Gretz doesn't have the connections to the coaching world as Shanahan does to the best coach in the NHL.

This is where my money is on.

Shanahan, Babock and Nicholson....I think I would piss myself a little if that happened. With the amount of money MLSE makes off the Leafs name and its fans, they should be handing those guys blank cheques in order to get them to come here. This what the organization needs, top hockey guys with hockey brains throughout vital positions.

Volcanologist
04-10-2014, 09:15 AM
Contacts is a great buzzword, but it never means much. We often get a GM like Burke who has "contacts" and can swing some good trade deals our way, but we still never make it to the prize.
We need results, not contacts.
Throw boatloads of money at some great pro and amateur scouts, and a real coaching team. There's no cap there, and the Leafs are one of the few teams in the league that can dump more than most in those areas. Get the right people in management, and the "contacts" will create themselves.

...what?

leafman101
04-10-2014, 09:17 AM
Playoff Teams # of players 34+
Anaheim - 5 (Koivu, Selanne, Robidas, Beauch, Allen)
Boston - 4 (Iginla, Thornton, Kelly, Chara)
Chicago - 4 (Hossa, Handzus, Brookbank, Roszivals)
Colorado - 4 (Tanguay, Hedja, Sarch, Giggy)
Columbis - 0
Dallas - 5 (Whitney, Gonchar, Horcoff, Cole, Fiddler)
Detroit - 7 (Datsyuk, Alfredsson, Bertuzzi, Cleary, Franzen, Legwand, Zettterberg)
LA - 2 (Regehr, Mitchell)
Minnesota - 3 (Cooke, Rupp, Backstrom)
Montreal - 7 (Boullion, Weaver, markov, Gionta, Parros, Briere, Murray)
NY Rangers - 4 (Moore, Richards, Asham, St. Louis)
Philly - 3 (Timmonen, Striet, Lecavalier, Hall)
Pittsburgh - 5 (Adams, Dupuis, Kunitz, Orpik, Scuderi)
San Jose - 5 (Thornton, Marleau, Hannan, Stuart, Boyle)
St. Louis - 2 (Morrow, Leopold)
Tampa Bay - 3 (Salo, Brewer, Malone)


Toronto - 0 (Oldest player Orr - 32)



Since when does being a young team mean you can't have a single reliable veteran player on the team? It doesn't make sense that the Leafs have avoided experienced players like the plague. That is why there is no leadership here, and too many guys don't do the right things. What is the difference between bringing in guys like Bolland or Raymond for 1 year, or bringing in guys who know what the **** they are doing short term? Teams need some kind of veteran leadership on their team to help guide things. Especially when your team is built around young, inexperienced players.

Its pretty tough to complain about young guys not being able to do things the right way when you don't bring in anyone who can show them how its done.

Not sure why the Leafs are allergic to vets, but they shouldn't be.

WingedWheel
04-10-2014, 12:06 PM
I was interested when I heard the Shanahan name....for this reason.

Lieweke wants to make a splash with a name of some kind.

He can't do much with the roster as the cap is keeping him locked down. So where can he make a splash? Coaching.

Everyone agreed that Nicholson and Gretz were the names, but why did Shanahan's name come up?

I really think that Lieweke wants Babcock. Shanahan and Babcock are former player coach, that really grew together in Detroits Hayday.

Babcock has said that he didn't want to leave Detroit until his kids were out of highschool and I think this year that happens. He also has one year left on his deal, so I think Lieweke could make them an offer they couldnt refuse.

Babcock has done everything to be called a great coach. He likes the spotlight, and would become a GOD if he could turn around the Leafs. The players would have no excuse in not listening to the best coach in the nhl, and if they didn't improve, they know it ain't the coaches problem.

That leaves the GM spot? I am not 100% sold on someone who hasn't done it consistently, but you can't argue how well it would work to have Shanahan as President of Hockey Ops, Nicholson as GM and Babcock as head coach.

This is why I think Shanahan's name has been thrown in by Lieweke. Gretz doesn't have the connections to the coaching world as Shanahan does to the best coach in the NHL.

This is where my money is on.

Actually, most people seem to think Shanahan and Babcock didn't get along at all and they were only together for 1 year in Detroit ('05-06). Apparently his distaste for Babcock is part of the reason why Shanahan went to the Rangers as a UFA. I've heard that Babcock was a bit of a prick his first season in Detroit but has become more of a players coach since. Not sure how much of all this is true obviously but that's what I've heard over the years.

Is Lieweke looking for a great hockey mind, a middle man between him and the GM, a symbolic/respected figure, or all of the above? At some point you'd think Gretzky would get involved with the Leafs in some capacity. Not that there's anything wrong with Shanahan but at least Gretzky has run Team Canada and coached in the NHL.

Metalleaf
04-10-2014, 12:43 PM
Lieweke hired Lombardi in LA, you'd think he'd try a similar approach here.

Bleedsblue&white
04-10-2014, 12:56 PM
After watching him work on the Raps and TFC, at least I know one thing; he is going to do something, and if he can it will be big.

I'm also hoping it works as well.

Artnes
04-10-2014, 01:10 PM
He seems like a man who doesnt like to be embarrassed and right now the Leafs are doing just that.

The golden child of MLSE should be front and centre and right now they are taking a backseat to the Raptors and TFC

MindzEye
04-10-2014, 01:48 PM
Since when does being a young team mean you can't have a single reliable veteran player on the team? It doesn't make sense that the Leafs have avoided experienced players like the plague. That is why there is no leadership here, and too many guys don't do the right things. What is the difference between bringing in guys like Bolland or Raymond for 1 year, or bringing in guys who know what the **** they are doing short term? Teams need some kind of veteran leadership on their team to help guide things. Especially when your team is built around young, inexperienced players.

Its pretty tough to complain about young guys not being able to do things the right way when you don't bring in anyone who can show them how its done.

Not sure why the Leafs are allergic to vets, but they shouldn't be.

This is more or less what I was arguing a few weeks ago. We have a lot of roster spots opening up if we simply just let people leave, and make the right cuts to dead weight. Replacing Carlyle & his system will likely cure at least a part of the possession issue (at least, that's what the evidence suggests, he's been possession poison in his last 2 NHL jobs). Bring in good veteran players to add to this young core group, with a new coach before we go blowing anything up (unless it's, as MBow has suggested, to get our hands on legitimately ridiculous quality at the 1-2 centre spots).

We just need a handful of good veterans who make good hockey plays all over the ice. We've got tons of talent, we just need guys who win that board battle, make the easy pass, support the puck properly on the breakout, can get on the forecheck, generate good cycles, or if a defender, can separate their man from puck. Just good solid hockey plays. We have too many complete passengers that don't do any of that.

TheCountofMonteCristo
04-10-2014, 02:08 PM
The big question is will you be firing Burke's lackey. If not, then bringing in a hockey President will ultimately be meaningless as President is mostly a figure head role.

CRL
04-10-2014, 02:32 PM
according to capgeek there is no easy fix for this team

Volcanologist
04-10-2014, 03:42 PM
If they do can Nonis, could Jim Benning be a GM candidate? He's one of the top guys in Boston's FO.

Metalleaf
04-10-2014, 04:37 PM
Benning and Hextall I think are top candidates.

corksens
04-10-2014, 04:50 PM
Can someone tell me why Babcock would leave an organization like the Red Wings for the Leafs?

Leafyblue
04-10-2014, 04:52 PM
http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI/223/1566/200808/PreviewComp/SuperStock_1566-442734.jpg

corksens
04-10-2014, 05:01 PM
Ah the same old argument.

Detroit isn't hard up - he's well paid and with a top organization.

Unless they get shelled 80-0 in round 1 he's not going anywhere.

Volcanologist
04-10-2014, 05:03 PM
Can someone tell me why Babcock would leave an organization like the Red Wings for the Leafs?

Ego? that's all I can think of.

GEEMAN
04-10-2014, 06:12 PM
1) it's way, way, way more important to have depth at centre than on the wing. this current leafs team says all you need to know about that.

2) it's way, way way easier to deal with a lack of depth on the wing than at centre. pittsburgh is a perennial contender with a pretty pedestrian group of wingers. boston competes with a collection of second line wingers. when you have centres like spezza or staal you can put second line caliber players with them and have still get first line production. just like the leafs used to have with sundin. of course, one of those guys would also get to play wth kessel.



jvr/gardiner is a pretty damn good starting point, and carolina/ottawa would be hard pressed to get a package that has better pieces than those two.



part of the reason why the D is 'atrocious' is because the leafs centres aren't very good in their own zone, and the team can't establish a cycle (entirely a result of their lack of size at centre). the D needs to improve, but they have a ton of pieces from within that are going to help, including a budding top pair defenseman in rielly. they could use a veteran who can play tough minutes and stabilize the second pair. that aside, several of the young guys should be ready to help out next year. also, a big part of hte problem this year was franson who spent most of the year playing close to 20 minutes per game. he will be addition by subtraction from a defensive standpoint.

but, ultimately, a lot of this team's defensive problems are addressed by adding size and skill up the middle.



people were saying the same thing about joe thornton 5 years ago (when thornton was the same age that staal and spezza are now).

don't think anybody would be sitting here today complaining had they traded for thornton 5 years ago. and they'd still be reaping the benefits.

these guys might not have 100 point seasons lefti n them, but they are still capable ppg guys, and should be able to continue to put up those numbesr given that they rely on their size and ability to work the cycle rather than their speed and acceleration...not unlike sundin.

and having said that, these guys WOULD prepare this team to win now. if you have spezza and staal up the middle you are one of the top teams in the league. period.

If you want both centers Kadri and Bozak have to be part of both packages with other parts as part of any deal . Agreed down the middle strength is very important but you have to pay big time to get centers period. They will get tons of interest out there , and young centers have to be part of ant deal .

Dont compare San Jose and Thornton cmon . You dont have their depth , they have been contenders for years . They have Marleau ,Pavelski to insulate Joe , in TO he would of been a lonely fish trying to save a franchise by himself when you missed the playoffs all those years .

The worst thing to happen to the Leafs is simple , reaching the playoffs in a shortened season and some playoff success skewed the true value of this team , and your brass over valued your team , and thought you were a few players away .

Spezza and Staal as good as they are , are the wrong fits for you guys now . You have to overpay with players to get these guys , then overpay to keep them in their decline years in a few years with massive deals as UFA`s. You get these guys if your are legit contenders and you arent there yet . I dont see these guys aging gracefully like Thornton . The last thing you want are more 6 + year deals on your cap for the wrong players.

Go try and get Stastny on a somwhat fair deal as a UFA , wont cost u anything .

leafman101
04-10-2014, 06:28 PM
Thats ridiculous. Any argument that adding both Spezza and Staal to a franchise would be a bad movie is full retard.

You are talking about two of the 15 or so legit front line centers in the game. And neither are old.

mbow30
04-10-2014, 06:31 PM
Dont compare San Jose and Thornton cmon . You dont have their depth , they have been contenders for years . They have Marleau ,Pavelski to insulate Joe

and the leafs would have staal, spezza and kessel to 'insulate' each other.

Volcanologist
04-10-2014, 06:32 PM
http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey/2014/04/10/brendan_shanahan_to_be_named_president_of_maple_le afs_cox.html

Looks like Shanahan is in as President of the Leafs, announcement coming soon.

Pronger84
04-10-2014, 07:33 PM
Thats ridiculous. Any argument that adding both Spezza and Staal to a franchise would be a bad movie is full retard.

You are talking about two of the 15 or so legit front line centers in the game. And neither are old.

I wouldn't want Spezza, as skilled as he is its his injury history that freaks me out the most, Staal on the other hand I'd love to bring him to the Leafs.

MindzEye
04-10-2014, 08:29 PM
Poor Staal and Spezza...would only have Phil Kessel to insulate them

Metalleaf
04-10-2014, 08:31 PM
Staal and Spezza would have great seasons playing with Kessel.

mbow30
04-10-2014, 08:34 PM
they would all have great seasons because they'd all take a ton of attention off of each other. just like mats/mogilny. they produced the same whether htey played together or apart because teams were either faced with playign their top unit against one or the other, or have the top unit out there dealing with both at the same time.

but, imo, two high quailty centres is just a sure fire way to contend. again. i can' tthink of a single team with two centres of that caliber that wasn't a contender.

Pronger84
04-10-2014, 10:48 PM
Can someone tell me why Babcock would leave an organization like the Red Wings for the Leafs?

1. Money (pretty much everyone in the NHL sells themselves to the highest bidder)
2. Ego- He's a guy that wants to win, and what better challenge then to take the leafs from a shithole of a franchise and build it into a winning success?

Pronger84
04-10-2014, 10:49 PM
Staal and Spezza would have great seasons playing with Kessel.

I dunno about Spezza, he's a puck carrier and so is Kessel.. it could work or it could fail badly. Remember we tried Kadri out (and he supposedly has elite vision) with Kessel and it didn't work.

Staal and Kessel would be an interesting combo tho.

JackBurton
04-12-2014, 06:11 AM
Ah the same old argument.

Detroit isn't hard up - he's well paid and with a top organization.

Unless they get shelled 80-0 in round 1 he's not going anywhere.

And we hear the same old thing. People laughed and asked why Burke would want to leave Anaheim for Toronto. Money and ego comes into play.

MindzEye
04-12-2014, 08:22 AM
And we here the same old thing. People laughed and asked why Burke would want to leave Anaheim for Toronto. Money and ego comes into play.

Don't be silly, Tim Lieweke wouldn't leave Anschutz group.....and you're crazy to think that Shanahan would leave his cushy league office job.

MLSE is a beast in the north american sporting industry, one of the top 2-3 outfits in sports in North America.....and wait until they buy the Jays, not to mention the obvious chase for a NFL team

mbow30
04-12-2014, 08:41 AM
Don't be silly, Tim Lieweke wouldn't leave Anschutz group.....and you're crazy to think that Shanahan would leave his cushy league office job.

MLSE is a beast in the north american sporting industry, one of the top 2-3 outfits in sports in North America.....and wait until they buy the Jays, not to mention the obvious chase for a NFL team

why would rogers sell 37.5% of the jays to bell and 25% to tanenbaum and others?

MindzEye
04-12-2014, 09:07 AM
why would rogers sell 37.5% of the jays to bell and 25% to tanenbaum and others?

Monetize gains in value, once they have a long term broadcast deal locked in place?

mbow30
04-12-2014, 09:23 AM
unless rogers needs cash... it doesn't make sense.

especially since they can operate the jays in the red and write off losses, but still make money on the team.

from bell's perspective, why would they shell out coin if rogers locks in a 20 or 30 year tv deal? then they're just making a $300mn investment to line rogers' pockets.

and, in the longer term, why would rogers want to cede its exclusivity rights?

if either of those entities could own 100% of hte leafs or raptors, they would.

MindzEye
04-12-2014, 09:46 AM
unless rogers needs cash... it doesn't make sense.

especially since they can operate the jays in the red and write off losses, but still make money on the team.

from bell's perspective, why would they shell out coin if rogers locks in a 20 or 30 year tv deal? then they're just making a $300mn investment to line rogers' pockets.

and, in the longer term, why would rogers want to cede its exclusivity rights?

if either of those entities could own 100% of hte leafs or raptors, they would.

I have a feeling that if I had told you 3 years ago that Rogers & Bell would be going halfsies on MLSE you would have been asking why they would do such a thing, why TPF would sell, etc. Without having any skin in the game, people like you and I can sit here and plot a 30 yr strategic course for Rogers, when the people actually making decisions for Rogers live and die with quarterly results. If Rogers were to have a dodgy quarter and miss analysts estimates, they could very easily be compelled to spin off non core assets for quick cash to fatten up the balance sheet to assist in returning the companies stock price to wherever it was prior. This happens all the time in the corporate world, and very rarely makes long term strategic sense. It's not crazy at all to assume that if Rogers was given the opportunity to monetize a portion of their share, maintain broadcasting rights over a long period of time, and still maintain partial control over the franchise (and it's potential increases in value), they'd have to consider it. As for Bell, it would be an opportunity to get their brand to mingle with the Blue Jays brand and increase the value of their MLSE purchase.

mbow30
04-12-2014, 10:08 AM
I have a feeling that if I had told you 3 years ago that Rogers & Bell would be going halfsies on MLSE you would have been asking why they would do such a thing, why TPF would sell, etc. Without having any skin in the game, people like you and I can sit here and plot a 30 yr strategic course for Rogers, when the people actually making decisions for Rogers live and die with quarterly results. If Rogers were to have a dodgy quarter and miss analysts estimates, they could very easily be compelled to spin off non core assets for quick cash to fatten up the balance sheet to assist in returning the companies stock price to wherever it was prior. This happens all the time in the corporate world, and very rarely makes long term strategic sense. It's not crazy at all to assume that if Rogers was given the opportunity to monetize a portion of their share, maintain broadcasting rights over a long period of time, and still maintain partial control over the franchise (and it's potential increases in value), they'd have to consider it. As for Bell, it would be an opportunity to get their brand to mingle with the Blue Jays brand and increase the value of their MLSE purchase.

you don't sell a big chunk of a half billion dollar investment because of a shoddy quarter, unless you're in straits... and even fi you are, you probably don't sell to your biggest rival/competitor.

from a strategic perspective it makes little sense for rogers to sell the asset, especially while giving their biggest competitor a slice of the pie.

leafman101
04-12-2014, 10:16 AM
Yeah there is no reason for rogers to cut Bell of all people/companies into the Jays.

NFL is MLSE's next big addition.

Volcanologist
04-12-2014, 10:26 AM
yeah, that's one of Leiweke's primary tasks no doubt.

MindzEye
04-12-2014, 10:47 AM
you don't sell a big chunk of a half billion dollar investment because of a shoddy quarter, unless you're in straits...

You consider it when it was a 160 million dollar investment, currently valued at 610 million, when you have the ability (that has become the industry norm) to lock into a lengthy broadcasting deal. Think about it for a second. Rogers realizes a huge gain in cash flow, but maintains 37.5% ownership via MLSE, without coming a single cent out of pocket to maintain that 37.5% control. MLSE would assume all of the financing costs and risks. Bell goes for it due to similar reasons. 37.5% ownership of the Jays, without spending a single "Bell" dollar on the purchase, making their MLSE acquisition even bigger, and increasing their ability to brand themselves along with the Jays.

It's sneaky good business for both.

MindzEye
04-12-2014, 10:48 AM
Yeah there is no reason for rogers to cut Bell of all people/companies into the Jays.

Locking in nearly 450 million in profit on an acquisition isn't a reason?


NFL is MLSE's next big addition.

This though, I agree with. I expect a NFL expansion franchise announcement within the next few years.

MindzEye
04-12-2014, 12:07 PM
https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/peter-deboer-to-coach-toronto-maple-leafs--say-it-ain-t-so--lou-215805162.html


Peter DeBoer hasn’t exactly been a successful coach in the NHL.
He’s 204-183-69 in six seasons, with two games left for the New Jersey Devils in 2013-14. He’s been to the playoffs once, and it was a heck of a run: All the way to Game 6 of the Stanley Cup Final of 2012, before losing to the Los Angeles Kings in his first season as Devils coach.
The Florida Panthers, with whom he spent his first three seasons from 2008-2011, came within a whisper of a playoff seed in his first year as coach, placing third in the Southeast.
But the optics don’t reveal the circumstances. His Florida teams had diminishing talent levels due to economics. His New Jersey teams lost Zach Parise for Year 2 and Ilya Kovalchuk for Year 3, both non-playoff years for the Devils.
Devils GM Lou Lamoriello has never had a team that missed the playoffs in consecutive seasons, and hence has never had a coach return after they did so. Doug Carpenter came back for a third season in 1988 back when this was a Mickey Mouse franchise, and was summarily dismissed by freshman GM Lamoriello in favor of Jim Schoenfeld that season, who led the Devils to their first playoff appearance.
Thus began a run of 16 coaching changes Lamoriello has made over the last 25 years, and there’s speculation it could happen again. Only it might not be Lou pulling the trigger.
DeBoer’s contract is reportedly up after this season, and with Brendan Shanahan at the helm and Randy Carlyle looking like he’ll be fired, the speculation is that DeBoer could leave for the Toronto Maple Leafs.
As Tom Gulitti writes:
DeBoer, 45, is believed to be in the final season of a three-year contract with the Devils. The thought out of Toronto is that the puck-possession game DeBoer prefers and his ability to bring out the most in David Clarkson (both in Kitchener in the OHL and with the Devils) and Nazem Kadri (Kitchener) would make him the right man to take over the Maple Leafs. Of course, DeBoer also has Ontario roots, so the job could be intriguing to him, as well.
Losing DeBoer with be a third consecutive annual gut punch for the Devils.
Sure, he has his detractors – some dislike his usage of players, some simply aren’t settling for a playoff contending Devils team vs. one that makes the cut – but his teams are a pain to play, are well-coached, possess the hell out of the puck (fourth in the NHL in corsi-for, behind Los Angeles, Chicago and Boston) and frankly he’s a victim of circumstance.
Witness:
* The loss of the team’s two best forwards in consecutive seasons.
* The Martin Brodeur headache he was handed this season, a combination of fading star’s hungry ego and the acquisition of his replacement with one year left on Marty’s contract.
* The fact the players led DeBoer’s team to an 0-12 record in the shootout, which is the reason we’re not talking about where the Devils are seeded in the tournament now.
DeBoer’s a damn good coach. As a Devils fan, I’d hate to see him fired and I’d hate to see him leave. But as he’s discovered through the years, thanks to his depleted rosters, it’s a business. The Leafs could make him a heck of an offer.
One thing’s for sure, based on his history: Year 1 of Peter DeBoer as Leafs coach will be a doozy.

Leafin'
04-12-2014, 12:11 PM
Isn't Deboer part of the reason Kadri went from Kitchener to London?

Nothing that i read has made me want this guy as our coach.

MindzEye
04-12-2014, 12:30 PM
Isn't Deboer part of the reason Kadri went from Kitchener to London?

Hard to believe that as true. De Boer left for Florida 10 days after Kadri was traded.


Nothing that i read has made me want this guy as our coach.

I'm not quite sure what you're looking for then. The guy has managed to get the most out of very questionable talent levels in 2 stops.

LeafGm
04-12-2014, 12:36 PM
Isn't Deboer part of the reason Kadri went from Kitchener to London?

Nothing that i read has made me want this guy as our coach.
Got any other suggestions?

Metalleaf
04-12-2014, 12:45 PM
The only thing I read when DeBoer and Leafs Coaching Job are brought in the same sentence by people with no clue is "I don't like him". If there is a good reason share it with the class.

Montana
04-12-2014, 12:55 PM
How have Deboer and his squads faired year to year on special teams?....specifically versus how they did prior to his arrival?



(Asked the guy on vacation with only cell phone internet, and too lazy to do said leg work on his phone)

Montana
04-12-2014, 12:58 PM
...because if he's half as successful with special teams....as he appears to be with other aspects of his coaching.....he looks like an absolute no-brainer hire.

Metalleaf
04-12-2014, 01:03 PM
Just going by NHL.com stats....in DeBoer's first season with the Devils they were 14th in PP% and 1st in PK%, including 15 SHG.

Metalleaf
04-12-2014, 01:05 PM
Florida was 6th in the NHL in PK% in DeBoer's final season with them.

Montana
04-12-2014, 01:14 PM
Clarkson had 45 goals and 70pts in 128 games under Deboer (82gp, 29g, 45pt)....

MindzEye
04-12-2014, 01:15 PM
Florida

Pre De Boer (07-08)

PP - 19.2% (6th)
PK - 82.4% (16th)

The De Boer Years

PP
08-09 -16.6% (24th)
09-10 -14.2% (29th)
10-11 -13.1% (30th)

PK
08-09 - 82.6% (9th)
09-10 - 79.4% (23rd)
10-11 - 84.6% (6th)

New Jersey

Pre De Boer (10-11)

PP - 14.4% (28th)
PK - 83.4% (11th)

De Boer Years

PP
11-12 - 17.2% (14th)
12-13 - 15.9% (21st)
13-14 - 19.2% (10th)
PK
11-12 - 89.6% (1st)
12-13 - 81.1% (15th)
13-14 - 87.0% (1st)


So, for me the takeaway looking at that is that the man clearly had issues with NHL PP's during his 1st stop in Florida (which wasn't helped by their lack of talent I'm sure), and that the majority of those have been cleaned up, despite the talent loss he suffered in Jersey at forward (he saw Parise & Kovalchuk leave in successive seasons). He has an excellent track record with the PK though overall.

Montana
04-12-2014, 01:20 PM
Cheers, man.


...and yeah, for the coaching he'd bring to our possession game & PK alone, he's a worthwhile hire. If could make Clarkson useful again on top of that, it'd be gravy.

leafman101
04-12-2014, 01:22 PM
I like that his PP's have been on the upswing. Coaches should be learning and developing as much as players. Carlyle's problem is he is too stubborn to change what worked 8 years ago with Pronger and Neidermayer.

Metalleaf
04-12-2014, 01:24 PM
Stephen Weiss was Florida's best player during DeBoer's years there. Sprinkle in 2 years of Nathan Horton, Corey Stillman, and 2 years of David Booth and those were the best offensive players he worked with.

leafman101
04-12-2014, 01:28 PM
Yeah but its not like he has a team full of superstars now and he is still up to 10th in the NHL. Jagr, Elias and Zidlicky are good players, but he's getting a lot out of what he has.

MindzEye
04-12-2014, 01:36 PM
Yeah but its not like he has a team full of superstars now and he is still up to 10th in the NHL. Jagr, Elias and Zidlicky are good players, but he's getting a lot out of what he has.

That seems to be the trend with him overall. He's done a fantastic job in Jersey getting the most of out what he was given.

Metalleaf
04-12-2014, 01:37 PM
I want a coach who isn't afraid to mix shit up if its not working.

GEEMAN
04-12-2014, 02:54 PM
Thats ridiculous. Any argument that adding both Spezza and Staal to a franchise would be a bad movie is full retard.

You are talking about two of the 15 or so legit front line centers in the game. And neither are old.

These are not moves for the Leafs , these are trades made by contenders who have the depth , youth and others assets to move .

For what you have to give up then pay through the nose to keep them in 1- 2 years , there is no point to go after these guys , you arnet contenders.

Also if they are on the block lets say , why trade top 15 centers when they are so hard to fine ????

Ottawa will trade Spezza cause he is injury prone and on the downside of his career and no way they will sign to another monster extension after next season , so why would the Leafs want him ?

Staal is a UFA in 2 years , you prepared for another potential bad contract on your hands at 32 years of age , and why would Carolina move him .

Its like saying why would the Leafs move Phil who is a legit top 15 winger in hockey ?

Leafin'
04-12-2014, 03:17 PM
The roster needs to be improved as well as the coaching staff.

I'm not sure who would be a good coach for the leafs, and i don't really care who it is so long as we win.

Leafin'
04-12-2014, 03:27 PM
Hard to believe that as true. De Boer left for Florida 10 days after Kadri was traded.



I'm not quite sure what you're looking for then. The guy has managed to get the most out of very questionable talent levels in 2 stops.

You may be right. Kitchener had a season for the ages and just narrowly got beat out for the Memorial Cup. Argument could go either way, as Kadri could've just as likely been traded on Deboer's recommendation to the organization. Or he may of been traded for other reasons.

All i know with Deboer is that nothing he has done wows me. Reading off of posts from Jersey fans on other sites they seem to share the idea that he was overall mediocre for New Jersey in his time there. Im not one to say someone is right or wrong, here nor there. If he is the guy hired, he better damn well be the right guy for the job.

Leafin'
04-12-2014, 03:33 PM
Sorry thats a lie, i found a few wow stats:


NJ is #1 is shots against 25.6, and Toronto is 30th @35.9

NJ is #1 on the PK% and Toronto is 28th.

hockeylover
04-12-2014, 03:40 PM
These are not moves for the Leafs , these are trades made by contenders who have the depth , youth and others assets to move .

For what you have to give up then pay through the nose to keep them in 1- 2 years , there is no point to go after these guys , you arnet contenders.

Also if they are on the block lets say , why trade top 15 centers when they are so hard to fine ????

Ottawa will trade Spezza cause he is injury prone and on the downside of his career and no way they will sign to another monster extension after next season , so why would the Leafs want him ?

Staal is a UFA in 2 years , you prepared for another potential bad contract on your hands at 32 years of age , and why would Carolina move him .

Its like saying why would the Leafs move Phil who is a legit top 15 winger in hockey ?

Only contenders add players like Spezza and Staal?

Are you on crack?

Leafin'
04-12-2014, 03:47 PM
Franson + Tyler Biggs FOr Jason Spezza

Kadri + Gardiner for Eric Staal

JVR - Staal - Kessel
Lupul - Spezza - XXXX

We'd need to move out some contracts, but that would be some strength down the middle.

TimHorton
04-12-2014, 03:49 PM
Franson + Tyler Biggs FOr Jason Spezza

Even the xbox doesn't accept this trade.

Wayward DP
04-12-2014, 04:02 PM
Franson + Tyler Biggs FOr Jason Spezza

Kadri + Gardiner for Eric Staal

JVR - Staal - Kessel
Lupul - Spezza - XXXX

We'd need to move out some contracts, but that would be some strength down the middle.

lol

Leafin'
04-12-2014, 04:08 PM
:thumbup:

F*ck the Sens, we can wait it out and sign him for free next offseason. I don't care how laughable the trade suggestion is, that team sucks. He's making 7 mil, and then can say adios and drive up the 401 to Toronto.

Franson for all his warts is still a pretty effective point producing defender.

Leafin'
04-12-2014, 04:13 PM
With Barry Trotz potentially being let go by Nashville, wouldn't he be a better coach to go after than Deboer?

Metalleaf
04-12-2014, 05:23 PM
I have a deep fear of Trotz being a Carlyle redux.

leafman101
04-12-2014, 05:35 PM
Also if they are on the block lets say , why trade top 15 centers when they are so hard to fine ????



Its like saying why would the Leafs move Phil who is a legit top 15 winger in hockey ?


Now you are getting it. IF they are available it would be a great pickup(s) for any team. Saying otherwise is just wrong.

Hoss
04-12-2014, 05:36 PM
I don't understand the dislike of Deboer, he was in Florida for a long time.... then his time in Jersey he made the best of that roster every time. This despite crappy goaltending from Marty for two years. Devils fans complaining about lack of success is silly. Is it the most exciting hockey? not necessarily, but I find winning (no matter the method) directly related to my excitement level.

leafman101
04-12-2014, 05:37 PM
With Barry Trotz potentially being let go by Nashville, wouldn't he be a better coach to go after than Deboer?

No. What has he done that is so great if you aren't impressed with DeBoer?

Pronger84
04-12-2014, 05:38 PM
I have a deep fear of Trotz being a Carlyle redux.

I'm with Metal on this one. Carlyle and Trotz are old school defense first coaches but their idea of a system is playing dump/chase, and in their end collapse back in their own end.

If your gonna hire Trotz and fire Carlyle... may as well just keep the old goat 1.0

Pronger84
04-12-2014, 05:39 PM
No. What has he done that is so great if you aren't impressed with DeBoer?

To be fair Trotz has gotten some pretty shitty pred's teams to the dance... that being said I guess you can also say he had the likes of Weber/Suter/Rinnne to work with.

leafman101
04-12-2014, 05:40 PM
Yeah the Preds weren't shitty. They had two of the top 5 dmen in the NHL, and one of the top goalies. And he didn't get anywhere with them. Making the playoffs isn't impressive. He only made it past round 1 twice in 15 years.

LeafGm
04-12-2014, 05:42 PM
While Franson + Biggs for Spezza is a ridiculous suggestion, it's less ridiculous than trading Nazem Kadri for him, and I've seen that idea getting bandied about by a few Leaf fans around here.

Pronger84
04-12-2014, 05:42 PM
Yeah the Preds weren't shitty. They had two of the top 5 dmen in the NHL, and one of the top goalies. And he didn't get anywhere with them. Making the playoffs isn't impressive.

He had **** all to work with up front... he's a solid coach without a doubt, that being said he's not the right fit here.

Pronger84
04-12-2014, 05:43 PM
While Franson + Biggs for Spezza is a ridiculous suggestion, it's less ridiculous than trading Nazem Kadri for him, and I've that idea getting bandied about by a few Leaf fans here.

I think u need to add a bit more then that....

leafman101
04-12-2014, 05:44 PM
He had **** all to work with up front... he's a solid coach without a doubt, that being said he's not the right fit here.

Nah, he had solid players up front. He just never had a stud. But you are going to be a playoff team with Weber, Suter and Rinne/Vokoun. I don't care who the coach is. Just making the playoffs with that roster isn't impressive at all.

And since they lost Suter they haven't made the playoffs.

Metalleaf
04-12-2014, 05:45 PM
The Preds were good because they consistently got solid goaltending. After the first time they made the playoffs they received ~.920 goaltending every season from Rinne, Vokoun, Mason, and Ellis.

Pronger84
04-12-2014, 05:45 PM
Nah, he had solid players up front. He just never had a stud. But you are going to be a playoff team with Weber, Suter and Rinne/Vokoun. I don't care who the coach is. Just making the playoffs with that roster isn't impressive at all.

Who exactly did he have to work up front with? Again.... he's a good defensive minded coach BUT he's old school and like Metal said he's a Carlyle clone... we don't need his type coaching the Leafs.

leafman101
04-12-2014, 05:48 PM
Who exactly did he have to work up front with? Again.... he's a good defensive minded coach BUT he's old school and like Metal said he's a Carlyle clone... we don't need his type coaching the Leafs.

Erat, Legwand, Kostitsyn, Kariya, Sullivan, fisher, Radulov, Wilson, Arnott, Dumont, Hornqvuist. They always had 2-3 solid lines. By no means was that anything other than a playoff roster.

Trotz coaching record is only impressive in that he was never fired.

Leafin'
04-12-2014, 05:48 PM
There is no right or wrong here. Im not sure who would be a good coach for this team.

Sad thing is, the more that i think about how the last couple years have gone, i start to wonder if its not the roster thats the issue.

A collapse such as this should be just much on the players as it is the coaching staff. At the end of the day, its grown men playing the game. Maybe something is going on behind the scenes that we don't know about that is causing this. These are human beings afterall. What if the talk of Phaneuf being a knucklehead are true? What if Kadri isn't well liked in the lockerroom? What if Kessel is setting the wrong precedent, being the most skilled guy but not the hardest working?

I can be wrong on all counts, but the core group that we've had has done sweet diddely the last 3 years. The "young and growing" stigma this team has had is slowly vanishing. We're still young, but the main pieces are in or nearing their prime.

Metalleaf
04-12-2014, 05:52 PM
He's had over the last 10 years:

Steve Sullivan
Paul Kariya
Martin Erat
David Legwand
Mike Fisher
Sergei Kostitsyn
Patric Hornqvist
J.P. Dumont
Jason Arnott
Alex Radulov

These guy all hit at least 50 points. Best season was their 2006-2007 season.

Pronger84
04-12-2014, 05:54 PM
There is no right or wrong here. Im not sure who would be a good coach for this team.

Sad thing is, the more that i think about how the last couple years have gone, i start to wonder if its not the roster thats the issue.

A collapse such as this should be just much on the players as it is the coaching staff. At the end of the day, its grown men playing the game. Maybe something is going on behind the scenes that we don't know about that is causing this. These are human beings afterall. What if the talk of Phaneuf being a knucklehead are true? What if Kadri isn't well liked in the lockerroom? What if Kessel is setting the wrong precedent, being the most skilled guy but not the hardest working?

I can be wrong on all counts, but the core group that we've had has done sweet diddely the last 3 years. The "young and growing" stigma this team has had is slowly vanishing. We're still young, but the main pieces are in or nearing their prime.

1. I think whoever the coach is next season actually uses the team's speed as a weapon/to their advantage. Speed should be preached in all zones, when your in the defensive zone/don't have the puck the players use that speed to attack the puck carrier (espically the pointmen), when the players get the puck make sure the team is within 5-7 feet of each other, keeping their legs moving at all times and making short passes UP the ice into the other teams end, as for in the offensive zone the coach has to empahsize to just fire the puck on net at all times, **** off with the cute plays.

2. You make a very valid point, there very well could be things going on between the benches, the dressing room and off ice that us fans are not aware of and it could very well be impacting their play ON the ice. I think this team is just an all around emotionally immature team with no leadership on this team, they have the talent to be a top team in the league but whenever they chuck together a few wins it gets to their head and then they let their guard down, by the time other teams start kicking their ass they truly have no way of responding because they freeze up and don't know how to deal... which is why you need some vets to settle these young clowns down out there.

3. Agreed, we arent some rookie team, the majority of it is in their prime.

Pronger84
04-12-2014, 05:55 PM
He's had over the last 10 years:

Steve Sullivan
Paul Kariya
Martin Erat
David Legwand
Mike Fisher
Sergei Kostitsyn
Patric Hornqvist
J.P. Dumont
Jason Arnott
Alex Radulov

These guy all hit at least 50 points. Best season was their 2006-2007 season.

Adequate roster, but by no means should people wet themselves in excitement over it either.

LeafGm
04-12-2014, 07:08 PM
He's had over the last 10 years:

Steve Sullivan
Paul Kariya
Martin Erat
David Legwand
Mike Fisher
Sergei Kostitsyn
Patric Hornqvist
J.P. Dumont
Jason Arnott
Alex Radulov

These guy all hit at least 50 points. Best season was their 2006-2007 season.
You can add Peter Forsberg to the list as well. He was added to that stacked 2006-07 roster at the trade deadline, and they still went out in five games in the first round.