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LeafGm
05-08-2014, 02:52 PM
...because this ****ing idiocy certainly deserves its own thread.

CRL
05-08-2014, 02:52 PM
FML

voyager
05-08-2014, 02:52 PM
seriously?

UWHabs
05-08-2014, 02:53 PM
April Fools!

Oh, wait... Lol.

leafman101
05-08-2014, 02:53 PM
Why extend him? It makes no sense. He was under contract for this year.

Worried that with another year like last someone will swoop in and steal him away?

LeafGm
05-08-2014, 02:54 PM
seriously?
Yep. As per TSN (http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=451611).

They are firing his assistant coaches though (Dave Farrish, Scott Gordon and Greg Cronin), because that certainly ****ing worked when they pulled the same move with Wilson.

Volcanologist
05-08-2014, 02:54 PM
The Internets/media are going to be fun to read in the next couple days, lol.

worm
05-08-2014, 02:54 PM
the positive spin: it doesnt matter MLSE is rich

SundinsTooth
05-08-2014, 02:55 PM
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSHuYHWys8WbArfP0rHGZ03ZEDAhypad tTkrnNZp1WrkiN3pgy3

UWHabs
05-08-2014, 02:55 PM
This is almost as stupid as re-electing Ford.

MyNameIsJonas
05-08-2014, 02:55 PM
Wilson got an extension one time too.

leafman101
05-08-2014, 02:56 PM
the positive spin: it doesnt matter MLSE is rich

The money isn't my concern. Carlyle will be fired at some point. The decision making to come to this conclusion is.

Rumpleforeskin
05-08-2014, 02:57 PM
This has to lead to roster over haul. No way can they just bring back the head coach, and keep the same core.

worm
05-08-2014, 02:57 PM
The money isn't my concern. Carlyle will be fired at some point. The decision making to come to this conclusion is.

im trying for you guys

im trying


the extension part isnt important.... the important part is he starts next year

CRL
05-08-2014, 02:57 PM
The Internets/media are going to be fun to read in the next couple days, lol.

it already does, Down Goes Brown is on suicide mode, Bruce Arthur is laughing his head off.

SundinsTooth
05-08-2014, 02:57 PM
Back to back epic (and I mean epic as in the truest sense of the word) meltdowns and they give him a pat on the back.

Holy shit this franchise is completely unlikeable at this point.

Habspatrol
05-08-2014, 02:58 PM
https://24.media.tumblr.com/d9777074a9c2e3c31d69ac8543642aca/tumblr_mxvpmdBY6B1sd5tduo1_500.gif

TimHorton
05-08-2014, 02:59 PM
Good bye Kadri and Gardiner.

worm
05-08-2014, 03:00 PM
James Mirtle @mirtle
Nonis: "In Randy we know that we have a leader who has enjoyed a high level of success as both a player and a coach including a Stanley Cup"

worm
05-08-2014, 03:00 PM
Good bye Kadri and Gardiner.

Welcome to Montreal.

worm
05-08-2014, 03:02 PM
http://www.nhlsnipers.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/wilson_ron_640_640.jpg
https://d3j5vwomefv46c.cloudfront.net/photos/large/536783385.gif?1331601760

CRL
05-08-2014, 03:04 PM
James Mirtle @mirtle
Nonis: "In Randy we know that we have a leader who has enjoyed a high level of success as both a player and a coach including a Stanley Cup"

with team he had only retard would not win.
Hitch earner only 1 year extension for a best record in team history and this clown gets 3 for being ignorant and stubborn

TimHorton
05-08-2014, 03:05 PM
with team he had only retard would not win.

Randy should have been fired, but this is a dumb statement.

TheCountofMonteCristo
05-08-2014, 03:05 PM
Welcome to Montreal.

I will take Kadri even though he is a douche, but not Gardiner.

Feyd
05-08-2014, 03:06 PM
Good bye Kadri and Gardiner.
Kadri is the laziest player on the team.

LeafGm
05-08-2014, 03:06 PM
I'm thinking I may package up all of my Leaf jerseys and mail them to Tim Leiweke.

TimHorton
05-08-2014, 03:06 PM
Kadri is the laziest player on the team.

No he's not.

CRL
05-08-2014, 03:08 PM
Randy should have been fired, but this is a dumb statement.
huh?

CRL
05-08-2014, 03:08 PM
No he's not.

he is

Feyd
05-08-2014, 03:08 PM
No he's not.
Oh?

TimHorton
05-08-2014, 03:09 PM
Saying any coach could win a cup with that roster is a dumb statement. Dumb.

ForeverTML
05-08-2014, 03:09 PM
Have fun leafland watching this clown talk about "not doing the things it takes to win games" and getting his team to "try to play like St. Louis".

The team is just done. I would say they are trying to wait for Babcock, but a 2 yr extension? Really?

leafman101
05-08-2014, 03:09 PM
James Mirtle ‏
Leafs management has never believed Carlyle was part of the problem, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

SundinsTooth
05-08-2014, 03:10 PM
http://replygif.net/i/1491.gif

SundinsTooth
05-08-2014, 03:10 PM
Wonder if he gets a refund on unused timeouts. ****ing guy.

ForeverTML
05-08-2014, 03:11 PM
Im not even expecting a roster overhaul at this point. I mean, the core is just there for years to come. Unless Nonis pulls a rabbit out of the hat.

CRL
05-08-2014, 03:11 PM
James Mirtle ‏
Leafs management has never believed Carlyle was part of the problem, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

instead of changing coach which is not suitable for this team they will change team to suit this coach. LOL

leafman101
05-08-2014, 03:12 PM
http://cdn.bloguin.com/puckdrunklove/wp-content/uploads/sites/17/2013/12/Screen-Shot-2013-12-15-at-4_45_55-PM.png

trujaysfan
05-08-2014, 03:12 PM
I guess my yelling last night to TL to fire Carlyle fell to deaf ears.

wiseguy1
05-08-2014, 03:14 PM
No big deal, if Leafs don't make the playoffs next year, Carlyle is gone. Leafs will have no problem eating the last year of the contract. I see this as a one year deal.

ForeverTML
05-08-2014, 03:15 PM
Some of the homers will say "believe in Liewecke" not understanding what just happened. A 2 year extension for a coach who's led two dramatic collapses. The last of which he was not able to explain at any point of the stretch. A coach who's "system" has led to the worst shots allowed and shot differential ever recorded in the history of the NHL.

This guy just got a 2 YEAR extension. Mind-boggling.

Feyd
05-08-2014, 03:15 PM
The only way this "move" makes sense is if they overhaul the roster in a big way this summer. And even then, it still doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

leafman101
05-08-2014, 03:16 PM
Firing the GM and coach is way easier than overhauling the roster. They didn't have the balls to fire either, but now they are going to make huge deals? I don't see it.

TimHorton
05-08-2014, 03:18 PM
It's not a 2 year extension, they just didn't want a lame duck coach. He's as easily fired with or without it, just gives him leverage in the room.

ForeverTML
05-08-2014, 03:19 PM
They've painted themselves into a corner to making deals to overhaul now. Its just not going to happen. The core is going to be there, and Clarkson will be for eternity.

G luck Tim, you just set up 2 more years of suckage.

LeafGm
05-08-2014, 03:19 PM
Im not even expecting a roster overhaul at this point. I mean, the core is just there for years to come. Unless Nonis pulls a rabbit out of the hat.
I'd be surprised if there were any big, bold changes.

Firstly, because Nonis doesn't have the balls to make those kind of moves, and also because he's the guy that assembled this core group of players.

leafman101
05-08-2014, 03:22 PM
It's not a 2 year extension, they just didn't want a lame duck coach. He's as easily fired with or without it, just gives him leverage in the room.

The Blues had no problem having a lame duck coach and they are one of the best organizations in the league. Same with the Wings.

Lame duck gm's are bad, because they could make moves that aren't in the best interest of the team to try and save their jobs. But lame duck coaches? Who gives a shit.

Its piss poor decision making.

TimHorton
05-08-2014, 03:24 PM
The Wings don't want a lame duck coach, Babcock just won't sign a new deal.

Feyd
05-08-2014, 03:24 PM
The Star is live feeding the presser right now:

http://livenews.thestar.com/Event/LIVE_Leafs_hold_conference_call_on_retaining_Randy _Carlyle

leafman101
05-08-2014, 03:25 PM
The Wings don't want a lame duck coach, Babcock just won't sign a new deal.

Well they want to keep him because he is the best coach in the league. They don't care if he's a "lame duck".

Like really, what is so bad about a coach with a one year contract? Nothing, other than if you don't want him leaving.

Habspatrol
05-08-2014, 03:25 PM
https://24.media.tumblr.com/09a22ca8aa5b52923a0aa48779f5f6bd/tumblr_mv3ijhQOcX1rfkt7ao1_500.gif

TimHorton
05-08-2014, 03:26 PM
Well they want to keep him because he is the best coach in the league. They don't care if he's a "lame duck".

I said he should have been fired, but if they're going to keep him the extension doesn't matter to me. If they suck out of the gate he's going to get fired just the same.

trujaysfan
05-08-2014, 03:26 PM
I really don't understand how both the GM and the Coach managed to avoid the axe after that season we just had. It's pretty simple: either the coach did his job poorly with the players he had available to him or the GM did poorly constructing the team for the coach. After what we just endured its not okay to tell me that both of these men did a good job.

leafman101
05-08-2014, 03:27 PM
"Nonis says this is first step to reshaping team. Will look to make some changes. This was most important move in off-season."

leafman101
05-08-2014, 03:27 PM
I said he should have been fired, but if they're going to keep him the extension doesn't matter to me. If they suck out of the gate he's going to get fired just the same.

Yeah, but giving him an extension now is moronic, and doesn't speak well to managements decision making ability. Its completely unnecessary.

number17
05-08-2014, 03:29 PM
No big deal, if Leafs don't make the playoffs next year, Carlyle is gone. Leafs will have no problem eating the last year of the contract. I see this as a one year deal.Right, but why do we even have to endure another year, or even another month of poor coaching when there are better coaches out there???

Shanny is the 'new boss', and it's perfect time for him to start a new page after an epic failure that ended the season.

Instead, he rewarded the coach for the failure.

Volcanologist
05-08-2014, 03:30 PM
"Nonis says this is first step to reshaping team. Will look to make some changes. This was most important move in off-season."

how is keeping the same guy a step in reshaping anything?

as for the bolded, I sincerely hope not.

leafman101
05-08-2014, 03:30 PM
"Nonis says Leafs looking to add to leadership group, but they have one of youngest teams in the league.

Nonis says they will look to add pieces, however."


No big changes are coming.

leafman101
05-08-2014, 03:32 PM
"Carlyle talks about struggles in penalty killing, which was basically same team as previous season. "It was mind-boggling." #Leafs"


They guy doesn't know what he is doing. "I am doing the same thing i've always done I can't figure out why it doesn't work anymore".

ForeverTML
05-08-2014, 03:32 PM
Nonis says he doesn't blame assistant coaches for what went wrong
What is he saying ? Is he sane?


Carlyle says level of compete fell off rails and he couldn't get it back.
heh


Nonis says "we felt we could use a change in the mix, some different ideas" and how the game is played. #Leafs
So...you gave the head coach an extension?

Killer93
05-08-2014, 03:33 PM
Kadri, Gardiner, Franson, Lupul and MAYBE Phaneuf will all be gone. I expect some major moves this summer with Carlyle coming back

mbow30
05-08-2014, 03:34 PM
meh, they wanted to give him another year. don't agree with it but I wouldn't overanalyze the extension thing.

mlse has never been shy about firing an ineffective coach, and this just removes all those lame duck headaches. if the team struggles out of the gate they'll dump him.

ForeverTML
05-08-2014, 03:35 PM
Expect nothing. Teams are laughing at the fact that the leafs will be trying to trade anyone. Only way to reshape will be to add in guys like Finn or Gautheir to sweeten the deals - which leads to more years of suckage.

The cycle continues.

number17
05-08-2014, 03:35 PM
This is all very, very, very stupid.

I mean, even if you think Carlyle was not the main problem for the epic failure, he sure was not part of the solution. And to reward him with an extension is pure insanity.

My fear for Shanny is coming true ... this will be the first of many, many more mistakes Shanny makes over the next few years, mark my words.

mbow30
05-08-2014, 03:35 PM
Carlyle likes Kadri. This, imo, makes a Kadri trade less likely. We'll see about Gardiner.

I think Lupul is toast here.

leafman101
05-08-2014, 03:36 PM
It wasn't the GMs fault, it wasn't the coaching staff's fault, it wasn't the player's fault. Whose fault was it?

Ours. "Nonis says team overchieved in the shortened season. #Leafs" The team stinks, our expectations were just too high.

number17
05-08-2014, 03:38 PM
It wasn't the GMs fault, it wasn't the coaching staff's fault, it wasn't the player's fault. Whose fault was it?

Ours. "Nonis says team overchieved in the shortened season. #Leafs" The team stinks, our expectations were just too high.really? He said that?

The team overachieved by making the playoff in the shortened season?

Thus, missing the playoff last year was just 'on par'?

Oh this is just getting better and better.

!@#!*&*&*&!@#*!&#!^#!@#!#!@#!r1

mbow30
05-08-2014, 03:40 PM
it comes down to them overachieving? so then what were they expecting last year?

they can spout the youngest team nonsense but average age doesn't mean much. most of their top six/top 4 are in their primes.. between 25 and 31.

bozak, kessel, lupul, Raymond, Clarkson, phaneuf, gunarsson, franson.

this isn't a team that is relying on a bunch of 21 or 22 year olds.

they had two young defensemen and kadri and jvr (who will be 24 and 25 this year). everybody else on the roster of any significance was 26+.

hockeylover
05-08-2014, 03:42 PM
James Mirtle ‏
Leafs management has never believed Carlyle was part of the problem, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

I can't even believe that Shanahan bought that 1) Carlyle was not at least PART of the problem and 2) that it was entirely the players' fault but Nonis, having resigned a significant group of these players, deserves to keep his job.

Deckie007
05-08-2014, 03:44 PM
I guess my yelling last night to TL to fire Carlyle fell to deaf ears.

You gotta beat the drum louder next time, man.

hockeylover
05-08-2014, 03:45 PM
Nonis resigned Bozak, he resigned Franson, he resigned Phaneuf, he resigned Kessel, he resigned Kadri. He kept everyone else.

If the core that we've got here is flawed, he either didn't identify it after the last collapse, or the main move he made to address it was to bring in a guy whose only skills appear to be falling down and getting suspended.

Volcanologist
05-08-2014, 03:49 PM
Mike Zeisberger ‏@Zeisberger 26s
Nonis: "Our players have to be committed to do the things that made us successful the year before," #Leafs

I don't like the sound of that.

trujaysfan
05-08-2014, 03:50 PM
Also I believe they said that PK was same group but didn't we have Komarov and Grabo killing penalties last season? Uncle Leo was our best PKer if i remember correctly

Bleedsblue&white
05-08-2014, 03:52 PM
I've never been fond of Randy, but I like the line in the sand being drawn here; they obviously believe it's a player issue...if they are right they'll have to make the changes necessary, if they're wrong, we're screwed again.

The Green Hornet
05-08-2014, 03:54 PM
bringing him back is laughable, doing so with an extension is asinine

can't wait to see the contracts we give Bolland and McClemment now.

**** being a Leaf fan sure does suck

hockeylover
05-08-2014, 03:56 PM
I honestly have a hard time seeing how any Leaf fan would be okay with the extension. In denial maybe or just stupid.

mbow30
05-08-2014, 03:57 PM
I think it's more concerning that they're bringing him and Nonis back than the fact that they gave him the extension.

Once they decided to bring him back they had to give him the extension. Otherwise you're begging for a ridiculous distraction.

I mean, just look at how the media is treating Kessel for his innocuous night fishing statement.

hockeylover
05-08-2014, 03:59 PM
I think it's more concerning that they're bringing him and Nonis back than the fact that they gave him the extension.

Once they decided to bring him back they had to give him the extension. Otherwise you're begging for a ridiculous distraction.

I mean, just look at how the media is treating Kessel for his innocuous night fishing statement.

I feel like it's going to be anyway if we start the season poorly.

MapleLeafBlueJayBoy
05-08-2014, 04:01 PM
Dear god no! Please tell me this is a joke.

He is back and with a 2 year extension. ****!!!!!!!

hockeylover
05-08-2014, 04:01 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BnI2856CQAAgIcU.jpg

MapleLeafBlueJayBoy
05-08-2014, 04:03 PM
Back to back epic (and I mean epic as in the truest sense of the word) meltdowns and they give him a pat on the back.

Holy shit this franchise is completely unlikeable at this point.

Yup, it truly is. I really don't know what to say. Cannot believe this.

Pronger84
05-08-2014, 04:27 PM
James Mirtle @mirtle
Nonis: "In Randy we know that we have a leader who has enjoyed a high level of success as both a player and a coach including a Stanley Cup"

What the **** am I reading here- A leader? Yea one who lead his team to a Game 7 collapse and wouldn't use the TO to give his boys a wakeup call, the same "leader" who had his team in a playoff spot only to see it disappear in less then 3 weeks, the same "leader" who had no answers for why his team fell apart last season.

I thought there would be massive changes this offseason to the Leafs, looks like I was wrong on that assessement.

Boogmour
05-08-2014, 04:28 PM
http://37.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3aubfZ3Tn1qe0xeao1_400.gif

LeafGm
05-08-2014, 04:45 PM
http://i.minus.com/i9xBclIknfVUG.gif

MapleLeafBlueJayBoy
05-08-2014, 04:49 PM
http://i.minus.com/i9xBclIknfVUG.gif

This!

MindzEye
05-08-2014, 04:51 PM
**** me sideways.


This is industrial strength stupidity at work

#FireShanahan

Pronger84
05-08-2014, 04:52 PM
It's weird, this is first time all of us are on agreement in something, about Carlyle being brought back undeservedly.

leafman101
05-08-2014, 05:00 PM
Thats how stupid of a move this is.

Blueman
05-08-2014, 05:06 PM
It's weird, this is first time all of us are on agreement in something, about Carlyle being brought back undeservedly.

Not all. I am on record saying I wouldn't mind him staying on as a coach. Think you guys are typical leaf fans who are too quick to judge and point fingers.

MapleLeafBlueJayBoy
05-08-2014, 05:07 PM
Nonis will be on Bob Cat shortly.

leafman101
05-08-2014, 05:08 PM
Not all. I am on record saying I wouldn't mind him staying on as a coach. Think you guys are typical leaf fans who are too quick to judge and point fingers.

Not sure 2 and a half years in is too quick to judge.

Its not like Carlyle was just hired.

TimHorton
05-08-2014, 05:09 PM
I was one of the bigger Carlyle guys, but he has to go now. Too much baggage. The extension to my is a non-story though, if they're not good to start he'll still be fired.

Blueman
05-08-2014, 05:10 PM
Not sure 2 and a half years in is too quick to judge.

Its not like Carlyle was just hired.

He also got us to the playoffs for the first time in 8 years. One season does not a coach make.

Pronger84
05-08-2014, 05:11 PM
He also got us to the playoffs for the first time in 8 years. One season does not a coach make.

Your also forgetting two things- 1. It was a shortened season 2. We relied heavily on Reimer to get into the promise land

MapleLeafBlueJayBoy
05-08-2014, 05:12 PM
So much for what Timmy L said a few weeks ago about holding people accountable.

Pronger84
05-08-2014, 05:12 PM
I was one of the bigger Carlyle guys, but he has to go now. Too much baggage. The extension to my is a non-story though, if they're not good to start he'll still be fired.

Here's the thing that worries me, we get badly outplayed/outworked but goaltending saves us and managment is convinced Carlyle is the right fit here next season.

leafman101
05-08-2014, 05:12 PM
He also got us to the playoffs for the first time in 8 years. One season does not a coach make.

Well no, his teams have consistently gotten worse for years now. And advanced stats look pretty bad on him for a long time.

Again, this isn't some fresh face. There is more than enough information to have an opinion.

Blueman
05-08-2014, 05:13 PM
Your also forgetting two things- 1. It was a shortened season 2. We relied heavily on Reimer to get into the promise land

I'm not forgetting anything bucko. Maybe we over achieved last year. Maybe we need to mature another year or two before this young team is ready to compete.

Pronger84
05-08-2014, 05:13 PM
So much for what Timmy L said a few weeks ago about holding people accountable.

It's all words man, did you actually think people would be held accountable? If management gets a pat on the back, I can only imagine the players will somehow get a free pass as well.

LeafGm
05-08-2014, 05:13 PM
He also got us to the playoffs for the first time in 8 years. One season does not a coach make.
But I guess in your opinion, one somewhat successful half-season does a coach make?

Blueman
05-08-2014, 05:14 PM
Well no, his teams have consistently gotten worse for years now. And advanced stats look pretty bad on him for a long time.

Again, this isn't some fresh face. There is more than enough information to have an opinion.
Yes and my opinion is that I'm ok with him as the coach.

Blueman
05-08-2014, 05:14 PM
But I guess in your opinion, one somewhat successful half-season does a coach make?

Stanley cup ring a bell?

Pronger84
05-08-2014, 05:14 PM
I'm not forgetting anything bucko. Maybe we over achieved last year. Maybe we need to mature another year or two before this young team is ready to compete.

Excuses, this team is not too young that they can't compete out there.... the problem is one of two things either Carlyle can't get the words across and they're not following along OR its that they simply don't care and have tuned him out, or maybe its a bit of both.

Pronger84
05-08-2014, 05:15 PM
Stanley cup ring a bell?

Mike Keenan says a big hello.

Blueman
05-08-2014, 05:16 PM
Excuses, this team is not too young that they can't compete out there.... the problem is one of two things either Carlyle can't get the words across and they're not following along OR its that they simply don't care and have tuned him out, or maybe its a bit of both.

Or maybe something else? Maybe their goalie got injured and they were heavily reliant on him? Nah, couldn't be that they lost confidence as players.

Blueman
05-08-2014, 05:16 PM
Mike Keenan says a big hello.

Tell him I say hi

Pronger84
05-08-2014, 05:17 PM
Or maybe something else? Maybe their goalie got injured and they were heavily reliant on him? Nah, couldn't be that they lost confidence as players.

They were heavily reliant on Bernier because they spend a long time in their end most games last season....

Blueman
05-08-2014, 05:18 PM
They were heavily reliant on Bernier because they spend a long time in their end most games last season....

Oh so maybe they aren't as good without a top goalie? Go figure

JackBurton
05-08-2014, 05:20 PM
It's one thing to keep him...but to give him an extension. Mind-boggling.

This myth that you can't have a "Lame Duck Coach" is laughable.

Pronger84
05-08-2014, 05:20 PM
Oh so maybe they aren't as good without a top goalie? Go figure

It's a combo of two things.... 1. Carlyle's system which insisted on the forwards and defense being so far apart in their own end which made it hard to make accurate passes as well as his insistence on them playing dump and chase despite this team not being big/physical enough to pull it off 2. The Leaf players making idiotic plays out there multiple times a game.

LeafGm
05-08-2014, 05:21 PM
Stanley cup ring a bell?
You're right, winning a Stanley Cup at some point in time should forever immunize a coach against getting fired, or from any kind of accountability.

What was I thinking?

Blueman
05-08-2014, 05:23 PM
It's a combo of two things.... 1. Carlyle's system which insisted on the forwards and defense being so far apart in their own end which made it hard to make accurate passes as well as his insistence on them playing dump and chase despite this team not being big/physical enough to pull it off 2. The Leaf players making idiotic plays out there multiple times a game.

1. What do you know about Carlyle's system? You barely figured out how to quote.
2. Mmmkay

Blueman
05-08-2014, 05:24 PM
You're right, winning a Stanley Cup at some point in time should forever immunize a coach against getting fired, or from any kind of accountability.

What was I thinking?

Probably not much. When speaking to Carlyle's success you implied one half season. I countered with his SC. Try linking those two together. Don't hurt yourself.

leafman101
05-08-2014, 05:27 PM
Yes and my opinion is that I'm ok with him as the coach.

Clearly. The problem is pretending like everyone else is jumping the gun and overreacting without giving him a chance.

Thats just wrong. The guy has been an NHL coach for a decade.

JackBurton
05-08-2014, 05:28 PM
How can this excite anyone. This is depressing. How many other teams would bring him back?

Blueman
05-08-2014, 05:28 PM
Clearly. The problem is pretending like everyone else is jumping the gun and overreacting without giving him a chance.

Thats just wrong. The guy has been an NHL coach for a decade.

I think a little overreacting is going on. The fact I get to tease the guys who are butthurt over it is just icing on the cake.

leafman101
05-08-2014, 05:29 PM
James Mirtle ‏
Nonis: "Team toughness is what wins."


Truculence junior. He's going to trade Kadri and Gardiner for more Clarksons.

Pronger84
05-08-2014, 05:29 PM
I think a little overreacting is going on. The fact I get to tease the guys who are butthurt over it is just icing on the cake.

So because we don't share your opinion, it's over-reacting? Mmkay... lol

TimHorton
05-08-2014, 05:30 PM
Nonis: "Team toughness is what wins."


Truculence junior. He's going to trade Kadri and Gardiner for more Clarksons

I really hope he means mental toughness.

Blueman
05-08-2014, 05:52 PM
So because we don't share your opinion, it's over-reacting? Mmkay... lol

No. You don't share my opinion and I couldn't care less. Doesn't mean you are not overreacting, which is my opinion.

ForeverTML
05-08-2014, 05:57 PM
I think we're seeing the real Lieweke - a guy who says all the right things and pulls you in to think there will be massive changes and does absolutely nothing to back it up.

Plenty of other teams did not have trouble in making management and coaching changes, but the leafs? - they think they are special.

hockeylover
05-08-2014, 06:06 PM
So now we're going to make player personnel choices based on having Carlyle as coach for the next 3 years I suppose. Likely trading young skilled players in the process. Fun times in Leaf land.

Leafin'
05-08-2014, 06:09 PM
A bit of overreaction going on, i don't see it as bad a move. Who is available that is better?

I think with some movement, we might a better team next season. If the team flops, we fire the coach, likely Nonis, and cash in on another top pick.

ForeverTML
05-08-2014, 06:17 PM
I dont know man. Changing the assistant coaches and keeping a coach who doesnt have a system at all for playing defense all the while keeping the GM who's made poor player choices over and over again is mind-boggling. Im sick of rebuilding over and over again and end up picking top 10.

TimHorton
05-08-2014, 06:26 PM
I think we're seeing the real Lieweke - a guy who says all the right things and pulls you in to think there will be massive changes and does absolutely nothing to back it up.

So you believe the guy who fired the Raps GM, brought in a new President and completely re-hauled TFC is change adverse? Interesting theory I guess.

MindzEye
05-08-2014, 06:31 PM
He also got us to the playoffs for the first time in 8 years. One season does not a coach make.

The underlying numbers suggest that Carlyle had **** all to do with it. Right place. Right time.

Leafin'
05-08-2014, 06:32 PM
I think the defensive execution comes down to the players. Night after night we complain about guys making bad pinches, the forwards not coming back, weak board play, too many guys running around with there heads cut off. I don't think it should be put on the coach entirely for these not executing. When we hired Carlyle, he was brought in as a coach with a track record for implementing defensive schemes on his team. A lot of it comes to the players executing what the coaches tell you.

We have had a bunch of guys taking spots on this team that are defensive liabilities. Franson, Gardiner, Ranger occupying half our defence. Rielly in his first season. Phaneuf and Gunnarson being the only reliable defenders. Times were rough to say the least. Our forwards are awful defensively. this magnifies the failures of our defense for trying to cover for the forwards that aren't covering the boards or that didn't skate back and take the middle of the ice.

Phaneuf - XXXX
Rielly - XXXX
XXXX - XXXX

I'd move the rest for upgrades. Gardiner is a nice player, but with Rielly taking a top-4 spot, maybe we can use him to upgrade.

Volcanologist
05-08-2014, 06:39 PM
I think the primary decision on the blueline is Phaneuf. The rest will play out after that. They need to decide if he's the guy as captain given how this team has fallen apart, himself included, the past 3 seasons.

If not your GM and not your head coach...then next in line at some point here has to be the team's captain for a squad recently called lacking in direction.

hockeylover
05-08-2014, 06:44 PM
I think the primary decision on the blueline is Phaneuf. The rest will play out after that. They need to decide if he's the guy as captain given how this team has fallen apart, himself included, the past 3 seasons.

If not your GM and not your head coach...then next in line at some point here has to be the team's captain for a squad recently called lacking in direction.

Frustrating though - The GM decided 4 months ago to give said captain a 7 year, 49 million dollar contract.

If Nonis and Shanahan decide it's the players and not the coach, then how does Nonis manage to come away unscathed?

Leafin'
05-08-2014, 06:45 PM
Only problem i have with losing Phaneuf, is that besides him, we have absolutely no one to play top minutes. We need another Phaneuf to play with Phaneuf. Is he a great captain? I'm not sure. How does the struggles of a team fall to one player? Our team defense has been shit. Our forwards have been awful defensively, putting even more pressure on a weak defensive group in the first place.

We need improvements in a couple of spots.

ForeverTML
05-08-2014, 06:46 PM
So you believe the guy who fired the Raps GM, brought in a new President and completely re-hauled TFC is change adverse? Interesting theory I guess.
With the leafs yes. The proof is in the pudding. It was something I would have predicted honestly. Compare what he said before, during and after this disaster of a season and tell me that his talk backs up what has happened with the leafs so far. Bringing in Shanny seemed to have a bit of hope, but it seems like Shanny is going to be a buffer between lieweke and the leafs.

I mean, all of Loiselle, Poulin, Fletcher etc etc that made up the braintrust are still here. The director of pro scouting, who probably had a big say in bringing in Clarkson - is still here. At least for the time being.

MindzEye
05-08-2014, 06:48 PM
I think the defensive execution comes down to the players

The players have all been fine in other systems, under other coaches.

Even if we accept that it's a below average group of defensive players, they were just the worst defensive group (as measured by shots against) in modern NHL history. This is not a group that is that futile defensively.

Volcanologist
05-08-2014, 06:51 PM
I have not been in favour of dealing Dion for those same reasons. But a decision needs to be made before the extension kicks in if we want Dion as captain for the next 7 years or not.

hockeylover
05-08-2014, 06:56 PM
The players have all been fine in other systems, under other coaches.

Even if we accept that it's a below average group of defensive players, they were just the worst defensive group (as measured by shots against) in modern NHL history. This is not a group that is that futile defensively.

Mmhm. None of the teams that had the first overall pick the last three years gave up anywhere near as many shots as we did.

MindzEye
05-08-2014, 06:56 PM
Mmhm. None of the teams that had the first overall pick the last three years gave up anywhere near as many shots as we did.

Yep.

Pronger84
05-08-2014, 06:57 PM
Only problem i have with losing Phaneuf, is that besides him, we have absolutely no one to play top minutes. We need another Phaneuf to play with Phaneuf. Is he a great captain? I'm not sure. How does the struggles of a team fall to one player? Our team defense has been shit. Our forwards have been awful defensively, putting even more pressure on a weak defensive group in the first place.

We need improvements in a couple of spots.

The problem is the Leafs are built entirely the wrong way, which is they are built around wingers but lack two way centres down the middle and the blueline is built with too many guys who think they're a forward out there. The one thing Nonis did get right though is goaltending, bringing in Bernier was his most intelligent move to date, I guess he gets some credit from that, but that's where it ends and the problems begin with him.

If the Leafs ever want to be taken seriously in this league then they need to start by overhauling the centres. Bozak? He's an OK player who is verstaile but he's no #1 centre either and his faceoff winning ability has gone south alarmingly. Kadri? Decent #2C but he too reeks on faceoffs and is questionable in his own end, the skill is there but the other intangibles seem to be lacking, again he's an adequate 2nd liner for this team. The 3C is question mark, who plays there next season is it Bolland or Holland? Bolland's a clutch guy but he has a troubling injury concern going forward, who knows if he gets back to being the player he was before the freak skate accident, even then he's never been anything special at winning faceoffs... as for Holland sorry but he's too raw and inexperienced to be handed the keys to an important position. Mcclement? Love the guy as a 4th liner and PK specalist, he's easily our best at winning faceoffs and he's reliable defensively, problem is Carlyle overused him last season.

The Blueline I feel needs some vets- One to play with Phaneuf to help ease the pressure on him, the other we need to play with Rielly on the middle pairing, I'd keep Gleason as a bottom pairing guy, he may be overpaid but he's what this team is badly lacking.

Goaltending? I hope to hell Bernier plays close to or at the same level he was this past season, otherwise were screwed.

Hoss
05-08-2014, 06:57 PM
I still go by the theory that they want Babcock, but Babs is going to play his contract out. So do you fire Carlyle and put in someone for one year?? what if there is success? what if its a failure? No coach is also going to sign a 3 year deal for example just to be let go in the first year regardless.

So do you hire the Marlies coach?? no.... The only thing they could do is give Carlyle an extension to stop the speculation that he is here only for one year, and when Babcock comes in you let Randy go with his extension as his severance package.

Nonis on the radio talked about liking the youth on the back end. I did think that he was talking about both Reilly and Gardiner. He also mentioned having some Marlies guys stay up and play the whole year. (I am assuming this will be done to save some money) names like D'amigo, Ashton, Gaulthier? mainstays?

He did mention though as well that trades will be the main way to change this team up.
I think Lupul is gone, and I still don't know about Kadri. But if a deal is to be had with Kadri involved he could be gone.

Pronger84
05-08-2014, 07:01 PM
Hoss,

If that were true then why give him a 2 year extension if they want Babcock after the next season? Makes no sense to me why they would do that, a one year contract extension I could get but not the extra year added on?

Nonis is a bleeping idiot if he's going with a youth movement on the backend, what this blueline needs is some vets (30-35 age range) to help balance out the youth.

KingTucker
05-08-2014, 07:11 PM
This isn't great but it isn't apocalyptic.

The assistants going is a shot across Carlyle's bow that he's on the hot seat. They basically gave him a year's thank you pay since if the Leafs struggle early he will get dumped overboard. I expect Nonis to have one of the new "assistants" be someone with enough experience and, I guess, people-friendly, to take over for a short haul.

They have no choice but to move players at this point and MSM keeps saying Lupul is on the way out, which can only help the room. I don't really see Dion going anywhere at that term and pricetag unless Nonis wants to do a reverse Dion and flip him to Treliving in Calgary or whatever. The good news is the East is shite so they can still be a bubble team. The bad news is Bernier is going to be skeletal after close to 20 games from the 40+ shots he's going to face...

Hoss
05-08-2014, 07:24 PM
Hoss,

If that were true then why give him a 2 year extension if they want Babcock after the next season? Makes no sense to me why they would do that, a one year contract extension I could get but not the extra year added on?

Nonis is a bleeping idiot if he's going with a youth movement on the backend, what this blueline needs is some vets (30-35 age range) to help balance out the youth.

Just like Ron Wilson... the one year extension still raises questions as they can see that as a thank you pay... but two years blows all smoke away. They don't care if they fire him with two or three years left.. if they get Babcock all is well.

blacksheep
05-08-2014, 10:04 PM
He also got us to the playoffs for the first time in 8 years. One season does not a coach make.

Including the one where Carlyle took a team that got to the third round of the playoffs twice in a row finally all the way in the third year.
Any other coach with the kind of record Carlyle had here in Toronto would have been fired. But this is Toronto. We hire talent scouts as coaches, so Randy is an upgrade.
Well, at least the Habs have the right idea.

Pronger84
05-08-2014, 10:08 PM
I dont know man. Changing the assistant coaches and keeping a coach who doesnt have a system at all for playing defense all the while keeping the GM who's made poor player choices over and over again is mind-boggling. Im sick of rebuilding over and over again and end up picking top 10.

This. There is just no sense of direction with this team, were spinning on our wheels in a mud of mediocricy- drafting is deplorable, free agent signings have been horrid, trades questionable at best, there is no accountability towards the management or its players. Think about this.... in 10 years the Leafs have made it once to the dance, and even then it was with a shortened season. I think if there were any other city and Carlyle pulled half the shit he did last year, he'd be canned even before the season was over.

MapleLeafBlueJayBoy
05-08-2014, 11:43 PM
By: Bruce Arthur Sports Columnist, Published on Thu May 08 2014


It was less than a month ago Tim Leiweke leaned into a microphone and all but called the Toronto Maple Leafs broken.


The CEO of Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment said he wasn’t sure they had the right environment, the right people, the right culture. He said making the playoffs two seasons ago clearly masked a deeper problem. He said the Maple Leafs lacked an identity.


A month later, and what have we learned? General manager Dave Nonis remains in place, superseded by the man Leiweke was introducing that day, Brendan Shanahan. On Thursday, the Leafs announced they have not only not fired head coach Randy Carlyle, but they have given him a two-year contract extension.


The more things change, it appears, the more they stay the same. If you follow the Leafs at all, you know this is not a promising sign.


“As a management group, this is the first step to reshaping the team, and how it will look and play in the fall,” said Nonis in a conference call.


He was asked why he believed Carlyle was the coach after everything that has happened — the historic collapse in Game 7 of the first round in 2013, the historic collapse at the end of the regular season in 2014, the consistent puck-possession and defensive struggles.


“To me it’s a simple answer,” Nonis said. “If you’ve seen it done before with the same players, or most of the same players, and with that coach leading that group, I know it can happen. I know it has happened with this group before. I know that he has reached them before, reached them at times this year.


“We’re not guessing whether or not he can have success. We’ve seen it. I know it’s there, and we feel that he is the guy that can get through to this group.”


The best-case scenario here is that he did not believe this, not all the way. The best-case scenario — part of which is true — is that the Leafs looked around and didn’t see a coach they truly believed in. The best-case scenario is that Carlyle’s extension is just money, not commitment, and that this is killing time until the right man becomes available.


Otherwise, this was madness.


After all, what organization would believe that a 48-game sample size from 2013 was more representative than the 82-game sample size from this past season? What organization would truly believe that the team’s horrendous possession issues, their historically disastrous shot differential, their defensive and structural shortcomings and their lack of fight down the stretch were less important than James Reimer, the backup goalie, faltering at the wrong moment?


It all just seems mathematically unsound.


A sane approach, of course, would be to accept that 2013 was closer to fluke than anything else, and that in 2013-14, the Leafs did not miss the playoffs by accident. A sane approach would be to accept that Carlyle tried to make this team change, and could not accomplish it.


Carlyle, meanwhile, kept saying Thursday that he found the season confusing, or mind-boggling. He said the coaching staff asked the players to play the way playoff teams are currently playing — less of a rush team, more of a forecheck and possession team, defensively stout — but it didn’t work, and wasn’t sure why. He really did say mind-boggling a lot.


“We never really created an identity for our hockey team this season,” he said.


Sounds like Tim Leiweke talking, that. If this organization truly believes in this course of action, then it is an organization that does not fully understand what happened to it, or why. It would be far more comforting to know that Shanahan has not had time to fully evaluate Toronto’s situation, was not ready to make major changes without truly believing in a replacement.


To be clear, Shanahan was a part of this decision. He has been given the keys, but the decision-making process was extremely collaborative. In the end Nonis offered his opinion, and Shanahan agreed.


People who know him say Shanahan believes strongly in the concept of loyalty, and other than a few assistant coaches, he has not come in swinging the axe or yanking the wheel. Nonis is still the general manager. He still has some room to run. Maybe Shanahan, who has never run a franchise before, is playing a longer game.


But that’s the future, and the keening despair of the poor doomed fans of this poor doomed franchise is the now.


At some point, it’s going to be fascinating to find out what it takes to be fired as the head coach of the Toronto Maple Leafs, and what lessons have been learned.


If the wrong lessons are applied, then Tim Leiweke was wrong on April 11.


He said the Leafs don’t have an identity.


History, if you look closely enough, disagrees.


http://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/2014/05/08/what_does_it_take_to_get_fired_as_coach_of_maple_l eafs_arthur.html#

BeLeafer
05-08-2014, 11:43 PM
Holy ****, they not only didn't fire this asswipe, they gave him an extension.

Morons.

BeLeafer
05-08-2014, 11:46 PM
Rewarding failure ... Leafs disease.

Pronger84
05-09-2014, 12:28 AM
http://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/2014/05/08/what_does_it_take_to_get_fired_as_coach_of_maple_l eafs_arthur.html#

Which baffles me even more, you have Nonis saying this guy is a leader, yet the old goof is dumbfounded at what went wrong this season.

JohnnyHolmes
05-09-2014, 08:28 AM
Good bye Kadri and Gardiner.

Helloooooooooo Jason Spezza!

Leafyblue
05-09-2014, 08:38 AM
the old goof

Beauty. I say we use that all year if things go wrong. :)

leafman101
05-09-2014, 09:01 AM
Rewarding failure ... Leafs disease.

#culturechange

PKForce81
05-09-2014, 09:11 AM
This. There is just no sense of direction with this team, were spinning on our wheels in a mud of mediocricy- drafting is deplorable, free agent signings have been horrid, trades questionable at best, there is no accountability towards the management or its players. Think about this.... in 10 years the Leafs have made it once to the dance, and even then it was with a shortened season. I think if there were any other city and Carlyle pulled half the shit he did last year, he'd be canned even before the season was over.

Carlyle knows exactly what's wrong with this team. You think he'll say things like "Reimer blew it in the last 10-15 games and couldn't stop a beach ball"?..or the fact we have a few guys(especially on the top 3 lines) whose work ethic should be much better?...He tried getting the guys to buy into his system and it's obvious some of them just aren't capable playing that way(especially where we keep the puck more)...At least if our goalie kept playing better we could have done what Habs do..That's the major difference(if anyone is paying attention to that series) here...All this other stuff is just nonsense. Every 2 years or so it's same shit from people on here. Wilson sucked, now Carlyle sucks and if we replaced him now, in a year or two the new guy would suck..Pointless drama all over.

leafman101
05-09-2014, 09:14 AM
Well get some more Clarksons so we can have "players" that can play Carlyle's "system".

leafman101
05-09-2014, 09:16 AM
James Mirtle
This speaks volumes to me. Your interpretations may vary, but this is Randy Carlyle's record in one very key area. pic.twitter.com/gImouqB01M

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BnJP5HrCMAApPaE.png


Odd that no team can find the right players for Carlyle.

leafman101
05-09-2014, 09:22 AM
PK Rank under Carlyle
2013-14: 78.3% (28th)
2012-13: 87.9% (2nd)
2011-12: 82.0% (16th)*
2010-11: 81.3% (19th)
2009-10: 79.3% (24th)
2008-09: 79.7% (23rd)
2007-08: 83.1% (12th)
2006-07: 85.0% (5th)


*- Anaheim

ForeverTML
05-09-2014, 09:23 AM
I love hearing Carlyle talk about the fact that "he doesnt understand" why the team doesnt play his "system" and that it was "mind-boggling" why their message wasnt getting through.

Now take a comparison of what he said in December and March and then at the season ending presser. Its the same exact thing. He just could not figure this out. What makes you sure he'll get this "new" team to play his system, whatever that is. Seriously, if someone knows what Randy's structure is on offense and defense, please let me know.

Sure the players are to blame here as well, but just choosing to ignore the puck possession and shots allowes stats is just dumb.

leafman101
05-09-2014, 09:27 AM
If the equation for success in hockey is some combination of special teams, skill, goaltending, possession and luck, the only ones reliant on coaching (possession and special teams) have been mostly terrible under Carlyle for two teams now, with a ton of player turnover. The only thing his teams have been good at is the PP.

And this doesn't even consider his questionable decision making like using Phaneuf in unwinable situations, taking away his shot on the PP, not relying on Rielly and Gardiner, not being able to work a toaster, etc.

But hey, he won a cup 10 years ago with the best D ever.

JohnnyHolmes
05-09-2014, 09:31 AM
Two of your best possession players were in Carlyle's doghouse and were let go.

No wonder the graph nosedives.

I almost feel bad for you Leafers. I know the feeling from Murray's extension.

It sucks when your management won't get out of its own way.

leafman101
05-09-2014, 09:34 AM
I am not sure you can nose dive from league worst possession numbers. They were terrible with Grabo and Mac, and slightly more terrible without them.

Of course they were a great possession team with the exact same players and a different coach the year before.

leafman101
05-09-2014, 09:36 AM
http://i.imgur.com/XTZcvUC.png

PKForce81
05-09-2014, 09:43 AM
I am not sure you can nose dive from league worst possession numbers. They were terrible with Grabo and Mac, and slightly more terrible without them.

Of course they were a great possession team with the exact same players and a different coach the year before.

So under Wilson? Why did we still suck then?

leafman101
05-09-2014, 09:44 AM
So under Wilson? Why did we still suck then?

Goaltending. When Reimer was healthy/playing they didn't suck.

That was a huge problem Carlyle hasn't had at all. He's had top 10 goaltending.

leafman101
05-09-2014, 09:51 AM
Leafs Team Save%
2013-14: .914 (9th)
2012-13: .917 (7th)
2011-12: .898 (28th)
2010-11: .904 (20th)
2009-10: .892 (30th)
2008-09: .885 (30th)

PKForce81
05-09-2014, 09:51 AM
Goaltending. When Reimer was healthy/playing they didn't suck.

That was a huge problem Carlyle hasn't had.

...but that's exactly what happened this year for most part. We were fine until Reimer started to shit the bed and we couldn't win 1 game in his 9 or 10 starts.

I'm not saying possession isn't important(it is) or the fact we need to be better...but it matters only so much imo. There are teams in the playoffs right now that aren't the greatest possession teams and are still managing in other ways(besides, if you don't have the players for it you will struggle). This is why i can't put a whole lot of blame on Carlyle. Some of these players need to go. The Ducks players started off well(because they have the players for it) but at some point they decided it was too much work to always sacrifice your body in the offensive zone and started getting lazy..Then they tuned him out completely and he got fired.

leafman101
05-09-2014, 09:52 AM
Nah. The Leafs were a shit team all year that was carried by goaltending (and Kessel). Thats not the same thing. its the opposite thing.

We finally got the goaltending and the rest went to shit.

ForeverTML
05-09-2014, 09:55 AM
If the equation for success in hockey is some combination of special teams, skill, goaltending, possession and luck, the only ones reliant on coaching (possession and special teams) have been mostly terrible under Carlyle for two teams now, with a ton of player turnover. The only thing his teams have been good at is the PP.

And this doesn't even consider his questionable decision making like using Phaneuf in unwinable situations, taking away his shot on the PP, not relying on Rielly and Gardiner, not being able to work a toaster, etc.

But hey, he won a cup 10 years ago with the best D ever.

Correct me if Im wrong, but this leafs team this year allowed TWO shorthanded goals when they were on a PP - TWICE this season. Meaning they were on a PP, let in a shorty and then went back on the PP and let in another shorty. Two times this year.

I dont think thats ever happened before in the NHL or heck has it happened in the AHL??

leafman101
05-09-2014, 09:56 AM
Correct me if Im wrong, but this leafs team this year allowed TWO shorthanded goals when they were on a PP - TWICE this season. Meaning they were on a PP, let in a shorty and then went back on the PP and let in another shorty. Two times this year.



Twice in a week.

leafman101
05-09-2014, 10:03 AM
And for the record people need to stop only focusing on that collapse at the end. The Leafs had two hot streaks all season. They started the year 10-4-0 and then they had an 11-2-1 streak before the olympics (both coinciding with Kessel scoring an insane amount of points).

Outside of those two, couple week hot streaks, they were 17-30-7 (62 point pace).

number17
05-09-2014, 10:27 AM
Yes. To be honest, Wilson was a pretty decent coach - some head scratching decisions for sure, and a very hate-able personality no doubt, but if Wilson had even a decent goalie, we would have made playoff at least a couple times, and Wilson would probably still be here.

Nobody can win in this league with 30th goaltending. Nobody.

TimHorton
05-09-2014, 10:30 AM
And for the record people need to stop only focusing on that collapse at the end. The Leafs had two hot streaks all season. They started the year 10-4-0 and then they had an 11-2-1 streak before the olympics (both coinciding with Kessel scoring an insane amount of points).

Outside of those two, couple week hot streaks, they were 17-30-7 (62 point pace).

So when they weren't winning, they lost?

number17
05-09-2014, 10:31 AM
And for the record people need to stop only focusing on that collapse at the end. The Leafs had two hot streaks all season. They started the year 10-4-0 and then they had an 11-2-1 streak before the olympics (both coinciding with Kessel scoring an insane amount of points).

Outside of those two, couple week hot streaks, they were 17-30-7 (62 point pace).Yes.

I mean, the immediate future is as bleak and as disastrous as we can imagine for Leafs fans with this stupid, stupid, stupid decision to extend Carlyle.

And honestly, extending Carlyle is 1 thing. What worries me more is Shanny, who has repeatedly been called 'the boss' by the owner, his assessment of hockey personnel and his decision on key hockey issues. If he can SO EASILY mess up completely on something as simple as THIS, then this is gonna be the first of his many, many big mistakes.

That's the most depressing part out of this whole thing.

MindzEye
05-09-2014, 10:32 AM
But hey, he won a cup 10 years ago with the best D ever.

This can't be said enough. That team was silly deep.

Pronger-Niedermayer-Beauchemin-O'Donnell

That's just ****ing silly. Insane top 4....

MindzEye
05-09-2014, 10:32 AM
So when they weren't winning, they lost?

That doesn't seem right to me.

leafman101
05-09-2014, 10:34 AM
So when they weren't winning, they lost?

At an insanely high rate. 62 point pace for 3/4 of the season is really, really, really bad.

Not sure how you can even bother trying to twist that into anything other than a negative.

This wasn't a team that had one bad streak. This is a team that was bad all season, other than two good streaks.

number17
05-09-2014, 10:41 AM
I mean I won't take the credit of the cup win from Carlyle, because he did win it. Of course, so did Marc Crawford, doesn't mean you'll hire him now. And the same for Torterella. You also won't hire him.

The thing is, you HAVE TO look at what Carlyle has done in Toronto before you decide whether you want to keep him or not.

The good:
- Made playoff in shortened season

The bad:
- Suffered a historic collapse in Game 7 of the first round playoff
- Suffered another drastic collapse in the last 12 games of this past season to miss the playoff
- Suffered a historic high in Shots-against over this past season
- Ranks among the league's worst puck possession teams year after years, with multiple teams
- Ranks among the league's worst PK, year after years, with multiple teams
- Cannot offer any acceptable explanation to how his team is so poor defensively, and thus offers no real solution to improve
- Cannot offer any acceptable explanation to what happened in the 12 games collapse, except "we ran out of gas" in the regular season, no real solution moving forward


I mean, can we do worse than Carlyle? I'm sure we can. But given what has happened already this team really needs a fresh start and a big shakeup. Carlyle was definitely part of the problem and we've chosen to reward failure with a 2 years extension.

Feyd
05-09-2014, 10:42 AM
Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger 4m
Leafs are not locked into Carlyle. The 2nd year of the extension is a team option. If things don't work out, he's gone next yr or yr after.

Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger 3m
Some trade discussion with teams on a number of Leafs players. Kadri, Gardiner, Bolland and Kulemin included. Leafs brass is eager to talk.
They should bring back Komarov.

leafman101
05-09-2014, 10:43 AM
So the solution is going to be to finally give up on our young players.

Not fire the GM. Not fire the coach. Lets dump Kadri and Gardiner. Because they were the real problem here.

Feyd
05-09-2014, 10:45 AM
I'd like to keep Gardiner, but if they can get decent value for Kadri they should do it.

j_15
05-09-2014, 10:51 AM
Thing is, of course the Leafs can still just as easily get rid of Carlyle. But as others have said, by far the most worrying thing about this is the fact that it suggests that Nonis and Shanahan have no real clue what they are doing.

That press conference yesterday was crazy. At one point I thought even Nonis surely didnt believe what he was saying, but it appears he did.


Can't wait for another year of losses, each one followed by Randy saying 'We just didn't compete good enough, we need to up our compete level' and the media lapping it up and repeating it, like it even makes the remotest bit of sense.

The guy can't even use a f*cking toaster.

If, or rather when they dump Kadri and Gardiner and bring in some thugs with COMPETE to keep Randy happy, I'm going to lose my mind.

number17
05-09-2014, 10:53 AM
Kadri is the one the Leafs will really regret to give up on.

I think we should keep BOTH Gardiner and Kadri, as these 2, plus Rielly, are really the 3 young, special players the Leafs have.

But in Kadri, they had a young creative center who plays on the edge, had a 70 points pace season in his first full season, and in his 2nd full season he still played on 50-ish points pace which is very respectable for a 2nd line center. What people need to realize is had Lupul play up to par for a 2nd line winger, Kadri would easily have had 60 points pace season, which is very good given the circumstances - his age, his PP times, his sophomore year (for full season).

The Leafs are very thin for offensive center and Kadri is the only one they have that has point per game potential in him. As much as I love Gardiner, the Leafs have a lot of offensive dman and Rielly has pretty much all the pro's that Gardiner brings to the game.

Signing Carlyle to an extension is the first big mistake.

Shanny sure has it in him to go 3 for 3 though - sign Carlyle, trade Kadri, trade Gardiner. And he can bring in some old, over the hill veterans to put the nail in the coffin and set the team back as far as any GM has done since JFJ.

TimHorton
05-09-2014, 10:53 AM
Why are we assuming they're dumping Kadri and Gardiner? You can shop them for an upgrade.

number17
05-09-2014, 10:56 AM
Oh just wait and see ... if they do trade Kadri and Gardiner, it WILL be a downgrade. The Leafs are a poor position of weakness for trades right now.

leafman101
05-09-2014, 11:01 AM
Not assuming anything. Just retarded that their solution was to keep the coach and GM and trade away some of our top young players.

Only one of those three groups of people are valuable to this team moving forward. Hint, its not Carlyle and Nonis.

TimHorton
05-09-2014, 11:30 AM
So we're believing Dreger now? I mean, let's wait and see yeah?

leafman101
05-09-2014, 11:42 AM
Wait and see for what? They kept the coach, and the GM.

Either they move some players or do nothing. Nonis/Carlyle will be given the chance to make some moves to save their jobs.

LeafGm
05-09-2014, 11:58 AM
Yeah, "wait and see", "lol impatient Leaf fans, Shanahan just got hired" etc were the kind of replies that kept popping up whenever anyone suggested that the longer Carlyle went without being fired, the more worried we should be that he'd be coming back. And we see how that turned out.

Similarly, it doesn't take a big imaginative leap to conclude that if they're not changing the GM, they're not changing the front office and they're not changing the coach, there's a good chance that some of our most tradeable assets (who our newly re-signed coach is not a huge fan of) stand a decent chance of heading out the door in order to effect Lieweke's much talked about "culture change". And nothing Nonis has done as our GM leads me to conclude that he would be able to upgrade this roster if he did in fact trade away Kadri and/or Gardiner.

Kritter
05-09-2014, 11:59 AM
It's amazing the panic and the drama that has surrounded the Leafs, the media and the fanbase because Reimer shit the bed for 3 weeks.

Pronger84
05-09-2014, 12:01 PM
So the solution is going to be to finally give up on our young players.

Not fire the GM. Not fire the coach. Lets dump Kadri and Gardiner. Because they were the real problem here.

I have a different prespective on this- Kadri and Gardiner are valuable commodities, Kadri because he's a 24 year old 2nd line centre who is on a cap friendly bridge contract and has played at a 73 pt and 50 point pace these past 2 seasons, Gardiner his value is at an all time high he's a top 4D blueliner who is an excellent skater and puck mover, not to mention he put up a career high 31 points.

The Leafs should have fired Carlyle, they didn't so that takes that option off the table, there's only one other recourse and that's to bring in the type of players that excel under Carlyle.

Pronger84
05-09-2014, 12:05 PM
Kadri is the one the Leafs will really regret to give up on.

I think we should keep BOTH Gardiner and Kadri, as these 2, plus Rielly, are really the 3 young, special players the Leafs have.

But in Kadri, they had a young creative center who plays on the edge, had a 70 points pace season in his first full season, and in his 2nd full season he still played on 50-ish points pace which is very respectable for a 2nd line center. What people need to realize is had Lupul play up to par for a 2nd line winger, Kadri would easily have had 60 points pace season, which is very good given the circumstances - his age, his PP times, his sophomore year (for full season).

The Leafs are very thin for offensive center and Kadri is the only one they have that has point per game potential in him. As much as I love Gardiner, the Leafs have a lot of offensive dman and Rielly has pretty much all the pro's that Gardiner brings to the game.

Signing Carlyle to an extension is the first big mistake.

Shanny sure has it in him to go 3 for 3 though - sign Carlyle, trade Kadri, trade Gardiner. And he can bring in some old, over the hill veterans to put the nail in the coffin and set the team back as far as any GM has done since JFJ.

Kadri is a decent #2 who a lot of teams would love to have, but let's not pretend he's an elite player because he's not. Sure, he has skills (puckhandling, vision, some tenacity) but the guy struggles bad on the faceoffs and is highly questionable in his own end.... good teams don't win with strictly offensive minded centres, they win with two way centres who are equally effective in all 3 zones.

If the right deal comes along, then you move Kadri with no questions asked.

TimHorton
05-09-2014, 12:22 PM
And nothing Nonis has done as our GM leads me to conclude that he would be able to upgrade this roster if he did in fact trade away Kadri and/or Gardiner.

Bernier trade?

MapleLeafBlueJayBoy
05-09-2014, 12:30 PM
It's amazing the panic and the drama that has surrounded the Leafs, the media and the fanbase because Reimer shit the bed for 3 weeks.

Reimer's agent is the one who really got this whole circus going.

MindzEye
05-09-2014, 12:37 PM
Kadri is the one the Leafs will really regret to give up on.


He's going to be our Ribeiro. Except he's not remotely the twat that Ribeiro was during his days in Montreal, he's bigger, more physical, and more talented.

But we're going to end up doing similar with him.

MindzEye
05-09-2014, 12:37 PM
Bernier trade?

Mandated to him by Lieweke, according to Lieweke

TimHorton
05-09-2014, 12:38 PM
Well TL is still there.......

Kritter
05-09-2014, 12:40 PM
Reimer's agent is the one who really got this whole circus going.


I'm saying had Reimer been able to win a few of the ton of games he lost, then we make the playoffs and all the discussions would be around what we have to do to improve the team to get us out of the first round.
Making the playoffs 2 seasons in a row after out for so long would have had Carlyle in the "we have the coach we need" talks and Nonis in the "our GM is doing a great job" talks.. Like I said, Reimer shits the bed for 3 weeks and the whole thing is turned inside out.

ForeverTML
05-09-2014, 12:50 PM
Yeah, "wait and see", "lol impatient Leaf fans, Shanahan just got hired" etc were the kind of replies that kept popping up whenever anyone suggested that the longer Carlyle went without being fired, the more worried we should be that he'd be coming back. And we see how that turned out.

Similarly, it doesn't take a big imaginative leap to conclude that if they're not changing the GM, they're not changing the front office and they're not changing the coach, there's a good chance that some of our most tradeable assets (who our newly re-signed coach is not a huge fan of) stand a decent chance of heading out the door in order to effect Lieweke's much talked about "culture change". And nothing Nonis has done as our GM leads me to conclude that he would be able to upgrade this roster if he did in fact trade away Kadri and/or Gardiner.

This, so much this. Everyone was humming and hawing about the fact the Timmy L will make changes. He brought in Shanny to protect himself from making the decision - clearly, he doesnt trust his own knowledge when it comes to hockey.

So far, he has chosen to keep the 4 headed disaster of a GM "group" in Loiselle, Poulin, Fletcher (WTF?) and Nonis - that have brought one season of playoff hockey and numerous historic collapses. The same pro-scouting guru that brought you Komi and Clarkson - one of the worst FA signings in the modern era. I mean if that is not a fireable offense, what is? The same group that thought that this teamwas good enough to contend for the playoffs this trade deadline and did virtually nothing.

Other teams didnt have any problems making big changes - Carolina, Vancouver, Nashville, Winnipeg. But nope, the leafs are different somehow.

MindzEye
05-09-2014, 12:54 PM
Well TL is still there.......

TL is hardly a savant though. He just knew Bernier from the Kings organization and wanted him brought to the Leafs. I don't see why Nonis gets a vote of confidence from that trade. His boss told him to do it. Unless LA has decided to give away other stuff for 50 cents on the dollar, I don't see how TL will be able to continue pushing Nonis into other good moves.

ForeverTML
05-09-2014, 12:57 PM
http://www.nhltradetracker.com/user/trade_list_by_GM/Dave_Nonis/76

TimHorton
05-09-2014, 12:58 PM
I don't see the point in panicking that Nonis is going to give away Kadri and Gardiner in May. If he does it, you can blast him then, but I think it's more likely he does nothing then just give them away.

number17
05-09-2014, 01:17 PM
Kadri is a decent #2 who a lot of teams would love to have, but let's not pretend he's an elite player because he's not. Sure, he has skills (puckhandling, vision, some tenacity) but the guy struggles bad on the faceoffs and is highly questionable in his own end.... good teams don't win with strictly offensive minded centres, they win with two way centres who are equally effective in all 3 zones.

If the right deal comes along, then you move Kadri with no questions asked.So, your biggest knock on a 24 year old center is his faceoff and defensive zone coverage.

Seems pretty darn good to me.

Name me another Leaf forward, either on the Leafs roster or in the system, that has PPG potential.

MindzEye
05-09-2014, 01:22 PM
I don't see the point in panicking that Nonis is going to give away Kadri and Gardiner in May. If he does it, you can blast him then, but I think it's more likely he does nothing then just give them away.

Agreed, no point panicking yet. I don't have faith in Nonis to know better though. I expect a reactionary, stupid trade to occur at some point.

leafman101
05-09-2014, 01:25 PM
I think its perfectly valid to not like thatNonis is still the GM, and the teem is putting all of the blame on the players for last year. There will be changes. And I don't see any reason to have confidence in the guy making them.

Some people are treating Nonis/Carlyle as if they are new hires. They aren't. We know what they are about, and aren't required to be okay with giving them a second chance.

Its not panic. It simply evaluating the moves (or lack thereof) that have already been made this offseason.

number17
05-09-2014, 01:27 PM
Trading Kadri and Gardiner, especially Kadri, at this point of his career, you are just not going to get full value for him period.

It's a matter of losing the trade, or losing the trade big time.

Pronger84
05-09-2014, 01:44 PM
So, your biggest knock on a 24 year old center is his faceoff and defensive zone coverage.

Seems pretty darn good to me.

Name me another Leaf forward, either on the Leafs roster or in the system, that has PPG potential.

Sure, Kessel and JVR both have potential to be ppg players in their primes. Again, Kadri is skilled there's no doubt about it but a key concern right now is his inability to win faceoffs, you may think that's unimportant but its' key to puck possession if you can win 50% or higher on your draws, don't believe me? Just take a look at most of the teams in the playoffs their common demoninator are two way centres down the middle, at this point Kadri is a one way guy, of course that could change as he matures or stay the same, the jury is still out.

Pronger84
05-09-2014, 01:46 PM
Trading Kadri and Gardiner, especially Kadri, at this point of his career, you are just not going to get full value for him period.

It's a matter of losing the trade, or losing the trade big time.

Your never going to get equal return for any player in this league, when was the last time you saw an equal talent trade? Kadri and Gardiners value IMO is high, one is coming off a 50 point season and on a cap friendly contract, the other is coming off his best season in the NHL both in terms of points and play... now is the time you would get the highest return for them.

Should Kadri be traded? I think we should wait a bit, let Holland develop because we'll need someone to fill the 2C role, Gardiner? I'd package him off in a bigger deal to land a 1C.

mbow30
05-09-2014, 02:16 PM
Your never going to get equal return for any player in this league, when was the last time you saw an equal talent trade? Kadri and Gardiners value IMO is high, one is coming off a 50 point season and on a cap friendly contract, the other is coming off his best season in the NHL both in terms of points and play... now is the time you would get the highest return for them.

Should Kadri be traded? I think we should wait a bit, let Holland develop because we'll need someone to fill the 2C role, Gardiner? I'd package him off in a bigger deal to land a 1C.

so wait for Holland to develop, but look to trade kadri.... you realize that kadri is a whole 3 months older than Holland, right?

Pronger84
05-09-2014, 02:20 PM
so wait for Holland to develop, but look to trade kadri.... you realize that kadri is a whole 3 months older than Holland, right?

Yes I'm well aware of that, big difference is that Kadri has played a lot more games in the NHL, Holland is still relatively raw in terms of experience.

mbow30
05-09-2014, 02:21 PM
no, the big difference is that kadri was good enough to play in all those games in the nhl and Holland wasn't.

PKForce81
05-09-2014, 02:39 PM
Neither should go. Kadri had a pretty good year(and is coming along defensively) and Holland is already a good 2-way player and hopefully he can provide more offense.

We need guys on top 3 lines who can do better in terms of board play(and overall better work ethic). Disappointed with how both Lupul and Kuly played. With Lupul, work ethic really lacked and Kuly is the opposite but seems to **** up way too often when he does have the puck.. Package one of them with Gardiner(the way Rielly is playing it doesn't hurt as much) and Franson and see what you can get.

number17
05-09-2014, 02:41 PM
Sure, Kessel and JVR both have potential to be ppg players in their primes. Again, Kadri is skilled there's no doubt about it but a key concern right now is his inability to win faceoffs, you may think that's unimportant but its' key to puck possession if you can win 50% or higher on your draws, don't believe me? Just take a look at most of the teams in the playoffs their common demoninator are two way centres down the middle, at this point Kadri is a one way guy, of course that could change as he matures or stay the same, the jury is still out.I really meant PPG center ... not forwards. Kadri is the only leaf center with PPG potential in him. (BTW, Kessel isn't a PPG-potential forward, he IS already a PPG forward)

Winning faceoff is a skill that can be learned, as well as defensive coverage.

Once again, your biggest knock on Kadri is he can't win faceoffs, yet you have no problem trading him and not get full value out of it. If you believe Kadri can become a PPG center, then trading him at the heel of a 50 points season is NOT good value at all.

Pronger84
05-09-2014, 02:57 PM
I really meant PPG center ... not forwards. Kadri is the only leaf center with PPG potential in him. (BTW, Kessel isn't a PPG-potential forward, he IS already a PPG forward)

Winning faceoff is a skill that can be learned, as well as defensive coverage.

Once again, your biggest knock on Kadri is he can't win faceoffs, yet you have no problem trading him and not get full value out of it. If you believe Kadri can become a PPG center, then trading him at the heel of a 50 points season is NOT good value at all.

I don't for a minute believe Kadri can become a ppg centre, for that to happen he would have to be anchored with Kessel/JVR and we tried that experiment which didn't pan out. This means that Kadri is on the 2nd line and won't get the ice time he needs nor the player to work with to get him those 82-90pts, he's going to be playing with guys like Lupul/Clarkson (unless they uprgrade), it'll keep his point totals in the 50-65 point range as opposed to the ppg range you seem to think he's capable of.

Yes, winning faceoffs can be taught, I'm in full agreement there. Just look at a guy like Crosby, the guy had a 38% in his first year but now he's one of the top faceoff centres in the league currently.

My point is that Kadri's a passable 2C and with time could morph into an upper level 2C but also that he's one of our few tradable commodities that can help net a decent return, if he can be packaged to land a top 4D for example then pull the trigger, but if not then keep him on.

Pronger84
05-09-2014, 03:01 PM
Neither should go. Kadri had a pretty good year(and is coming along defensively) and Holland is already a good 2-way player and hopefully he can provide more offense.

We need guys on top 3 lines who can do better in terms of board play(and overall better work ethic). Disappointed with how both Lupul and Kuly played. With Lupul, work ethic really lacked and Kuly is the opposite but seems to **** up way too often when he does have the puck.. Package one of them with Gardiner(the way Rielly is playing it doesn't hurt as much) and Franson and see what you can get.

This is the problem, too much sentimental attachment towards players and not enough focus on the needs of the team. I agree, we need strong 2 way wingers (not as valuable as a centre but still) who can muck it up along the boards, problem is they don't come cheap and your going to have to part ways with a core player to make that happen, this is where a guy like Kadri or Gardiner comes in. Franson? Please, the guy won't get more then a 2nd rounder and maybe a mid ranged prospect back, he has value but your not going to get a 2nd liner for him. Kulemin? He's solid defensively, I'd even argue he's our best defensive forward BUT his offensive game is colder then the south pole which really brings down his trade value, couple that with he's an impending UFA it hurts his value even more, at this point IMO you'd be lucky to snare a 3rd or 4th rounder for him, not many (if any) team is going to pay up for him not when they have guys already like him in the AHL.

Bleedsblue&white
05-09-2014, 03:42 PM
You guys need to stop thinking about what trade works best for us...of course you want to win a trade, but if MLSE is serious about changing the culture, they HAVE to get rid of who they perceive as trouble.
They have no choice now, they picked a side.

So if you think it's Kadri fine, but IMO you have to look at players with key roles the last three seasons, and Kadri ain't one of em. If Kadri has to get thrown in to help us get rid of the players they've identified, that will suck.

leafman101
05-09-2014, 03:46 PM
So if you think it's Kadri fine, but IMO you have to look at players with key roles the last three seasons, and Kadri ain't one of em. If Kadri has to get thrown in to help us get rid of the players they've identified, that will suck.

Agreed completely. I don't see Nonis having the balls to shake up the core though.

Pronger84
05-09-2014, 03:51 PM
Agreed completely. I don't see Nonis having the balls to shake up the core though.

I don't think he's got the stones either to shake things up, keep in mind this is the same guy who doesn't believe the Leafs collapsed in Game 7 vs the Bruins.

If I had to select trouble spots on this team- It would be Phaneuf for sure, the guy acts like he doesn't give a **** out there and also keep in mind he has in the past engaged heavily in drug use. Lupul strikes me as another diva, just something about him that makes me think he has a poor off ice attidude as well as on ice on, he's another guy I think they look at need to move to change the smoggy atmosphere in the dressing room.

Cojo
05-09-2014, 05:51 PM
Didn't Dreger say we were shopping Kulemin?

How are we planning to shop a UFA?

LeafGm
05-09-2014, 06:44 PM
Didn't Dreger say we were shopping Kulemin?

How are we planning to shop a UFA?
He's talking about us trading his rights to an interested team for some nominal return. The Caps already traded Halak's rights to the Islanders for a fourth-round pick.

JohnnyHolmes
05-09-2014, 06:55 PM
Spezza Spezza Spezza

Leafin'
05-09-2014, 07:06 PM
Spezza Spezza Spezza

LOL you do not give up.

He's a nice player, but i don't think we move Kadri for him. If we do, that is some bad asset management on our part. Maybe we move that 8th for Spezza?

Bleedsblue&white
05-09-2014, 07:51 PM
I just wanted to go on record and say the next season is Randy's last here.

The extension means nothing, and IMO he's been re-hired because the guy they want isn't out there. Even with that, you can't have the appearance of being a lame duck so he gets the team option.
Means nothing.
They still have to cull the quitters from the team...the last couple seasons have lots of blame to go around...but regardless of their performance next season they'l have a new coach before it's all over.

Not only is Randy going to be gone, I have a sneaking suspicion that Nonis won't survive the new Pres either.

Pronger84
05-09-2014, 07:51 PM
He's talking about us trading his rights to an interested team for some nominal return. The Caps already traded Halak's rights to the Islanders for a fourth-round pick.

He can be traded between now and July 4th, not that we would get much back for him.

Pronger84
05-09-2014, 07:53 PM
Spezza Spezza Spezza

Give it up, he's not coming here. In what world would the 2 teams make a trade much less Ottawa trading argubaly their 2nd best player (behind Karlsson) to a divisonal rival?

number17
05-10-2014, 12:02 AM
BTW Scott Cullen has written an excellent article on the Leafs' situation on tsn.ca ... look for Leafs' Off season game plan.

He basically dissected the stupidity in the decision to bring Carlyle back, clearly pointing out Carlyle's trend of league-bottom possession %, and how excessive time in our own end is overburdening Phaneuf, Gunnar cannot deal with the matchup and the icetime, the stupidity in keeping Orr around etc.

Very accurate, and very objective article.

The way I look at it, bringing Carlyle back is the first big mistake. What do Shanny & Nonis see in Carlyle, is 'mind-boggling' to me (to use Carlyle's favorite term).

But the domino effect of bringing Carlyle back is potentially even more long-term. By bringing the coach back, now the team will have to make some drastic changes to the lineup, including the core of the team, to build a 'better team' for next season. But I am really uncomfortable letting Shanny tinkle with the core of the team after seeing how he handled the Carlyle situation.

The worst that can happen is he starts trading "non-Carlyle" type young players like Gardiner and Kadri, and start bringing in "Carlyle type" veterans ... we all know who Carlyle's favorite players are - McClement, Fraser, Orr ...

We shall see what happens in the rest of the summer, but I have not felt the future's this bleak since the JFJ era.

JohnnyHolmes
05-10-2014, 12:23 AM
I don't know. I think it could happen. It can't be a complete coincidence that all these names are apparently in play.

Its not like trades in the division don't happen. Even between bitter rivals and star players (thanks Tyler).

Spezza as your #1c is probably making your brass and marketing department jizz all over themselves.

It would give you one of the scariest lines in the league, and would give us a couple of players that can help our rebuild along.

I honestly think its a good fit, and personally I'm tired of Spezza's act. A change of scenery would probably do him a world of good.

The thought of having Spezza between JVR and The Thrill (tm) has to have you all somewhat erect.

Should be an interesting draft day.

blacksheep
05-10-2014, 01:22 AM
I honestly think its a good fit, and personally I'm tired of Spezza's act.

We don't need his act here, and besides, he's nothing like Clarkson or McSelke, so he won't be a "Carlyle" type player.
What a fvcking joke it is that Carlyle keeps his job. Fvcking joke of a franchise this is anymore. Nick Beverly will finally have his record beaten.

JohnnyHolmes
05-10-2014, 04:48 AM
We don't need his act here, and besides, he's nothing like Clarkson or McSelke, so he won't be a "Carlyle" type player.
What a fvcking joke it is that Carlyle keeps his job. Fvcking joke of a franchise this is anymore. Nick Beverly will finally have his record beaten.

Well your feelings on the issue don't really matter. What matters is what MLSE wants.

A local boy, legit #1 C (which you clearly are lacking).

Kadri has been in the doghouse on and off for whatever reason(s) too.

In fact I would go as far to say that the more some of you hate on the idea here, the more comforted I feel.

leafman101
05-10-2014, 08:00 AM
Spezza > Kadri

At worst they are similar talents, but Spezza has 3 inches and 40 pounds on him. They aren't similar talents though. Spezza is a Kessel level talent.

MindzEye
05-10-2014, 08:06 AM
The question isn't whether Spezza is better than Kadri, but rather, is Spezza 4 million dollars in extra cap, 7 years in extra age, and a chronic back injury better than Kadri.

leafman101
05-10-2014, 08:09 AM
Of course. He is a 30 year old 6'3 220 pound legit number one center.

Those types of guys don't grow on trees. It might be the hardest type of player to get in hockey. If you have a chance to get one you do it.

Volcanologist
05-10-2014, 08:20 AM
Well your feelings on the issue don't really matter. What matters is what MLSE wants.

A local boy, legit #1 C (which you clearly are lacking).

Kadri has been in the doghouse on and off for whatever reason(s) too.

In fact I would go as far to say that the more some of you hate on the idea here, the more comforted I feel.

ditto. amazing how bad you want this now though, quite a contrast from 2 years ago.

MindzEye
05-10-2014, 09:00 AM
Of course. He is a 30 year old 6'3 220 pound legit number one center.

Those types of guys don't grow on trees. It might be the hardest type of player to get in hockey. If you have a chance to get one you do it.

Simplistic labels are simplistic.

He's 31 to start next season. Hasn't been PPG since 11-12 and has chronic injury problems that will be much harder to manage the older he gets. Which isn't to say that I don't want him on the club, but it's not crazy to believe that Kadri will be the better of the two within 2-3 years.

I'd rather just pay Stastny.

leafman101
05-10-2014, 09:09 AM
He was a 70 point player this year. And those big centers that don't rely on speed at all generally last. Trading Kadri for Thornton of 4 years ago would've been a great trade.

Get Stastny too. Hockey is won down the middle.

LeafGm
05-10-2014, 09:17 AM
How Spezza compares as a player to Kadri is irrelevant. Spezza is a rental player. You don't trade a player like Kadri for a rental player.

Though it is amusing how badly Johnny wants it to happen.

Volcanologist
05-10-2014, 09:23 AM
Spezza wouldn't be my first choice due to injury, where a Stastny is more attractive is better two-way play, plus not having to trade young talent for him.

we might just be better off going that route given Giggles' back, although of course there will be several teams better than the Leafs bidding for Stastny's services as a free agent. Quality centres are hard to find and he's going to get big money without too much trouble.

I'm honestly not sure now what the Leafs are going to do here. They've sent out a lot of contradictory messages as usual (we want a culture change, so let's keep both the coach and general manager in place), so it's hard to say what will happen with the roster. You would logically expect massive changes but the Maple Leafs rarely cooperate with logic. You would expect the Leafs to avoid making a move like Kadri + for Spezza because Nonis has said repeatedly that young players would only be moved for other young players, but who knows if Nonis actually making that call at this point.

JohnnyHolmes
05-10-2014, 10:02 AM
What I want doesn't factor into anything either.

The fact that there is buzz around Spezza being traded and there is buzz that Kadri and Gardiner may be moved aren't anything I've created. I just drew a real short line between the two buzzes.

Stop all this nonsense about Spezza being a rental. He has a full season left, not a couple of weeks.

And you all know that signing him is about as done a deal as there can be.

Spezza, Toronto boy, family all over the area, Leaf fan growing up, a chance to play for his childhood team, and one of the most storied franchises in NHL history who will pay him whatever he wants...

And you doubt that he'll stick around?

:lol

Come on now.

Volcanologist
05-10-2014, 10:05 AM
Kadri and Gardiner might be moved, but I would be surprised if it was for a veteran player.

hockeylover
05-10-2014, 10:05 AM
What I want doesn't factor into anything either.

The fact that there is buzz around Spezza being traded and there is buzz that Kadri and Gardiner may be moved aren't anything I've created. I just drew a real short line between the two buzzes.

Stop all this nonsense about Spezza being a rental. He has a full season left, not a couple of weeks.

And you all know that signing him is about as done a deal as there can be.

Spezza, Toronto boy, family all over the area, Leaf fan growing up, a chance to play for his childhood team, and one of the most storied franchises in NHL history who will pay him whatever he wants...

And you doubt that he'll stick around?

:lol

Come on now.

Why not just wait then if it's that in the bag?

JohnnyHolmes
05-10-2014, 10:11 AM
Ok wait a year and risk that he really likes St Louis or San Jose or Florida.

Makes no difference to me.

Chances are the Sens get more for him from someone else anyway.

leafman101
05-10-2014, 10:29 AM
The Sens aren't even getting a Kadri for him, nevermind more, from anywhere else.

You'll get less than you gave up for Ryan.

JohnnyHolmes
05-10-2014, 11:10 AM
Wishful thinking, and totally expected.

Bleedsblue&white
05-10-2014, 12:59 PM
Spezza might be just what we need...a stopgap.

I can't see T.O and Ottawa coming to an agreement, but a year or two of Spezza wouldn't be bad at all.

Bleedsblue&white
05-10-2014, 01:00 PM
The best part? We get Spezza to do all the post-game talking.

Volcanologist
05-10-2014, 02:01 PM
Chances are the Sens get more for him from someone else anyway.

Chances are Melnyk would rather do anything than trade his best forward to the Leafs.

MindzEye
05-10-2014, 02:28 PM
He was a 70 point player this year. And those big centers that don't rely on speed at all generally last. Trading Kadri for Thornton of 4 years ago would've been a great trade.

Get Stastny too. Hockey is won down the middle.

Thornton 4 years ago was bigger, better, and healthier than Spezza is today. Chronic back injuries don't age well either.

JackBurton
05-10-2014, 02:31 PM
I like Spezza a lot. His health has always been a big issue though.

His cap hit makes no sense for the Leafs. It makes more sense for a team losing money that wants to reach the cap floor.

JohnnyHolmes
05-10-2014, 03:02 PM
Maybe Spezza wants out?

Who knows. Maybe the Sens will extend him. He's probably got about 5 - 6 good years left in him. Nieuwendyk, Roberts, Nolan, Gretzky, Mario....all had back or other problems and all played into their late 30's / early 40's.

Spezza's not a banger obviously. His style of play doesn't bring on injuries like Wendel Clark or anything.

His back flares up from time to time. Aside from groin strains, it's probably the most common chronic ailment in hockey.

I think he'll last until he's 36-38.

MindzEye
05-10-2014, 03:43 PM
Maybe Spezza wants out?

Who knows. Maybe the Sens will extend him. He's probably got about 5 - 6 good years left in him. Nieuwendyk, Roberts, Nolan, Gretzky, Mario....all had back or other problems and all played into their late 30's / early 40's.

Spezza's not a banger obviously. His style of play doesn't bring on injuries like Wendel Clark or anything.

His back flares up from time to time. Aside from groin strains, it's probably the most common chronic ailment in hockey.

I think he'll last until he's 36-38.

You know what all of those guys had in common, and is the obvious concern in any trade for Spezza? They all had big offensive drop offs from their form as 28-31 yr olds.

Across the board, those guys you just named (even the two who should never be in a Jason Spezza comparison,ever) saw 10-20%+ declines in offensive outputs after the age of 31.

So...if those are your examples, then the takeaway when it comes to back injuries and longevity is that back problems rob you of your later prime years.

Volcanologist
05-10-2014, 03:48 PM
well why do you think Johnny suddenly wants to get rid of him so badly? and to us, of all teams?

JohnnyHolmes
05-10-2014, 07:03 PM
well why do you think Johnny suddenly wants to get rid of him so badly? and to us, of all teams?

I don't.

I just see a fit that makes sense.

Don't worry. I'm not the GM of the Leafs.

blacksheep
05-11-2014, 04:42 PM
Well your feelings on the issue don't really matter. What matters is what MLSE wants.

True enough, but the whiner has an injury history that includes recurring back problems - and an attitude problem. My feelings don't matter to MLSE, but my opinion remains the same.

Leafin'
05-11-2014, 05:14 PM
Id take Spezza on this team.

I wouldn't be moving Kadri for him.

What do people think of a deal centered around the 8th pick? Ottawa must have big hurt feelings for moving their pick this year. I expected them to be better this year after acquiring Ryan.

Gleason(Cap) + 8th pick for Spezza?

Ideally you'd get the Hens to pick up Clarksons deal, but probably not happening.

Spezza
Kadri
Bozak

Is some really nice depth.

MindzEye
05-11-2014, 06:24 PM
Gleason(Cap) + 8th pick for Spezza?


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