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View Full Version : The Chicago Blackhawks potential dynasty and how the Leafs might be on the right path



Matrim
05-19-2014, 07:23 AM
Not since the Edmonton Oilers of the 80's has a team won 3 Stanley Cups in a 5 year span. Only the Detroit Red Wings have come close to this when they won 3 cups in 6 years from 1997 to 2002. Now I know this may be a little early to talk about as we are only in the Conference Finals but in this Salary Cap NHL, no one thought this could be possible. I found it very interesting that 6 years before their first cup Chicago was an awful team led by the likes of Tyler Arnason, Mark Bell, Kyle Calder and Bryan Berard. The lockout happened, and then they drafted Jack Skille. It didn't look like the Hawks were going anywhere, but they were already building their Stanley Cup rosters during this early time and even before. And I found it interesting how they were able to build and maintain such a team and wanted to look deeper into it to see if the Leafs are on the right track if we were to base it off the Hawks core players.

It all started at the 2002 entry draft. They surprisingly made the playoffs in the 2001-2002 season with a relatively good roster but lost in the first round. With their 2nd round pick, 54th overall, they were able to grab the cornerstone of their defence for years to come in Duncan Keith. No one else they drafted ended up helping them build their Stanley Cup rosters.

After a disappointing season where they finished 9th in the West they were able to use their 1st round pick, 14th overall, in 2003 on Brent Seabrook, shoring up their defence for years. Followed by grabbing their starting goalie for at least 1 one Stanley Cup so far, in the 2nd round, 52nd overall, in Corey Crawford. They were then able to get lucky and grab a late round steal in Dustin Byfuglien, who helped them win their first Stanley Cup.

The next year they were one of the worst teams in the league and were awarded the 3rd overall pick in the 2004 entry draft which they promptly wasted on Cam Barker. But despite that awful pick they were able to grab Dave Bolland (32 overall), Bryan Bickell(41 overall) and Troy Brouwer(214 overall), all solid 3rd line players that have helped them win 1 or both of their cups so far.

The Hawks didn't get much better the next year as they had the 7th overall pick in 2005 and again wasted it on Jack Skille. The only player they got in this draft was Niklas Hjalmarsson in the 4th round, who turned into a key 3rd d-man for all of their cups so far.

The 2005-2006 season and the 2006 draft was where the Hawks made some big leaps forward in acquiring elite talent despite still being a terrible team. Starting during the season when they were able to acquire a 23 year old Patrick Sharp for 2 minor pieces from the Flyers. And then at the draft where they of course grabbed Jonathan Toews 3rd overall. The rest of the draft was a bust but when you draft someone like Jonathan Toews no one cares how the rest of your draft went.

Now the worst team in the league in 2007 Chicago won the lottery and recieved Patrick Kane. Thus the core of Sharp, Toews, Kane, Keith, Seabrook and Crawford was complete. This would be the third draft in a row where the Hawks were only able to get one NHL player but again it did not matter as they got the best player in the draft 2 years running. Also during that season they were able to acquire another key young secondary player in Kris Versteeg from the Bruins for nothing and helped them to their 1st Stanley Cup.

The Hawks now have their core in place and continue to add pieces with shrewd trades and free agent signings. Signing Brian Campbell in the 2007 offseason, getting Andrew Ladd in 2008 for Tuomo Ruutu and then completing their core with signing Marian Hossa in the 2008 offseason.

From their first Stanley Cup win in 09-10 to this year the core of: Sharp, Toews, Kane, Hossa, Keith, Seabrook and then Corey Crawford after their first cup win have been the engine to this terrific team. Every other piece has been interchangeable and the Hawks have realized this and continue to use young players in key secondary roles, trading or letting go of overpriced veterans when the time comes. They haven't been perfect, the 2008 draft was a complete bust for them, the Brian Campbell contract wasn't good, the 2009 draft only yielded Marcus Kruger, the only good draft they've had since drafting Patrick Kane has been 2011 where they were able to grab Brandon Saad and Andrew Shaw, the Bryan Bickell contract still doesn't look great even though his playoff performances have been impressive. Not to mention the Hawks centre depth has never been all that good past Toews. But none of those failures have mattered because of the core they have and the cheap secondary pieces they've been able to acquire. Essentially this is what the Hawks have been building around for all of their cups:

Sharp - Toews - Kane
( ) - ( ) - Hossa
( ) - ( ) - ( )
( ) - ( ) - ( )

Keith - Seabrook
Hjalmarsson - ( )
( ) - ( )

Crawford

Every other piece has been interchangeable, even the goaltending. I mean if you look at the Hawks roster right now it doesn't look great depth wise but they are getting it done anyway because they have elite talent in place for their core. In contrast who should the Leafs be building around as far as young talent is concerned? I believe the Leafs do have some comparisons, the only difference is that the Leafs have spent their money on secondary pieces and non-elite talent when given the opportunity and have handcuffed themselves in their impatience. But there is a core here in Toronto that has a chance IMO based on age if we are looking at building in a similar way as the Hawks.

van Riemsdyk - ( ) - Kessel
( ) - Kadri - ( )
( ) - ( ) - ( )
( ) - ( ) - ( )

Rielly - ( )
Gardiner - ( )
( ) - ( )

Bernier

I did not put Phaneuf here as he is already closing in on 30 years old and doesn't look to be a fit long term. The Leafs still need two big pieces going forward in a top-2 dman(which could still be Phaneuf but I have my doubts) and that number 1 centre. I think the Leafs need to go all in to trade for a top 3 pick in this years draft and address one of those positions by getting one of Ekblad, Bennett or Reinhart. Anyone not involved in the core I just posted should be available, hell even Gardiner or Kadri should be available if the right trade is around. The Leafs seem to have done well in recent drafts grabbing quality young depth players, guys like Leivo, D'Amigo, McKegg, Carrick, Broll, Holland, Ashton, Percy, Holzer, Granberg, etc. could all be used in support roles within the next few years for cheap, which as Chicago has shown is key when they grabbed guys like Bolland, Bickell, Brouwer and others through the draft. Now I'm not saying the Leafs have the pieces to be a dynasty but as far as core players are concerned, I believe they are on the right track. Some key trades, along with getting lucky in the draft and the Leafs are contenders.

So let me know what you guys think. This offseason has been full of negativity from the horrible end to the season, but the future is bright in Toronto despite what some may think. Whether this management group and Caryle can be the ones to make the right decisions going forward, I don't know. But the Leafs have some quality talent to build around.

Who could/should the Leafs target to finish the core here?

JackBurton
05-19-2014, 09:55 AM
The Leafs are not far off at all from the talent point-of-view. However, giving Carlyle an extension and hearing they want to waste money on Bolland makes me worry.

Wasting money on secondary pieces is a huge mistake.

Killer93
05-19-2014, 10:03 AM
Yep see Clarkson/Gleason etc. Reason Hawks have so much success is they don't overpay for mediocre talent and they also get maximum value/performance from players on their entry level deals.

CH1
05-19-2014, 10:08 AM
Top 3 picks are gold. Go figure.

hockeylover
05-19-2014, 10:10 AM
Clarkson 5.25 million
Bolland 4 million+?
Gleason 4 million

Yeah. That's a problem.

leafman101
05-19-2014, 10:16 AM
The Hawks also draft extremely well. 13 of the 19 players currently playing were Blackhawks draft picks. The only ones that weren't were Sharp, Hossa, Handzus, Versteeg, Roszival, and Oduya.

That is why they are so good. That is why they don't have to commit any money to their depth players. That is why they are a dynasty.

The Leafs are no where close.

In comparison the Leafs only had 5 regulars playing this year that they drafted. Kadri, Rielly, Kulemin, Gunnar and Reimer.

That is why it is so encouraging that they are overhauling how they draft.

JackBurton
05-19-2014, 10:20 AM
Throwing away a second to keep Holland on the 4th line made me want to scream.

hockeylover
05-19-2014, 10:20 AM
That is why it is so encouraging that they are overhauling their drafting system.

They are?

leafman101
05-19-2014, 10:23 AM
Drafted players on roster
Chicago - 13
LA - 11
Montreal - 11
NY Rangers - 7
Leafs - 5


Thats how you win a cup in a cap world. And the only way to be a dynasty.

leafman101
05-19-2014, 10:23 AM
They are?

Yep. They've said Shanahan has changed they type of players they are looking to get. More skill with higher risk.

leafman101
05-19-2014, 10:29 AM
To that end, new President Bredan Shanahan offered the scouting staff new guidelines heading into next month's NHL Entry Draft. Where Brian Burke favoured size over skill (i.e: Tyler Biggs) and Dave Nonis was admittedly safe in his selections (i.e: Gauthier) Shanahan indicated this week that the emphasis would be on taking players with higher ceilings, starting with the No. 8 pick, even if that meannt assuming greater risks.

"Certainly, Brendan has let us know what he likes as a player. He wants a certain type of guy and we're going to do out best to get that guy," said Morrison.

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2014/05/16/toronto-maple-leafs-amateur-scouting-chief-taking-patient-approach-with-prospects-despite-lowly-ranking/

hockeylover
05-19-2014, 10:32 AM
Hm. Well, the proof of the pudding is in the eating I suppose. We'll see.

leafman101
05-19-2014, 10:37 AM
All you can judge at this point is the problems Shanny has identified and his ideas for addressing them. Obviously nothing has happened yet so you can't judge any more than that.

But IMO he has identified the biggest problems this organization has had:
1. The draft. They have been picking safe, big players instead of high ceiling players. In that same article Morrison admits that Gauthtier was a safe puck, unlike others around here have speculated. This has been a huge achilles heel of this organization for a long, long time.
2. The system. He realized, down to a tee the exact flaw in the way the Leafs play hockey, and is going to change the way they play.
3. Their approach to free agency. He recognized that signing big name free agents doesn't work most of the time. Nonis has recently said they won't be looking at the same types of guys they have in the past, but rather they will look for older guys, and shorter term deals.

This is all that has come out so far that I've really liked. We'll see what happens, but I like that he is working on addressing the right problem areas. Thats the right first step.

hockeylover
05-19-2014, 10:46 AM
I think it's really easy to say all of these things and far more difficult to actually implement the changes though. Seems like he's putting a lot of faith in the same people to drastically change their system/philosophies.

leafman101
05-19-2014, 10:56 AM
I honestly don't think that is a big ask. You don't need to change everyone to change the way an organization/company does things.

Companies constantly shake up management to make these kind of high level changes that will be implemented throughout that company coming from a new president or CEO. Changing everyone below management isn't a pre-requisite to drastic change in an organization.

Employees adapting to new management is hardly undiscovered territory. It happens every day.

And its not just "saying things" this is his plan to running this organization. Thats another thing he has said "don't listen to the fan/media hysteria. Stick to your plan no matter what". That is the advice he recieved from the GMs he sought advise from. He will be sticking to this plan.

Bleedsblue&white
05-19-2014, 11:02 AM
Yep see Clarkson/Gleason etc. Reason Hawks have so much success is they don't overpay for mediocre talent and they also get maximum value/performance from players on their entry level deals.

Lets not forget how close to cap-suicide they were.

JackBurton
05-19-2014, 11:16 AM
The Leafs do have some players who potentially can fit-in the bottom 6 but never give them a proper chance.

MyNameIsJonas
05-19-2014, 11:37 AM
Chicago also identifies quickly and justly who is part of the core and who is not, and deal those who are not.

They have already had to make one purge of the roster dumping Ladd, Buff, and Versteeg after the first cup. It's entirely possible that something similar, albeit not as drastic will have to be done this offseason or next in order to accomodate Kane, Toews, Saad, and Kruger.

hockeylover
05-19-2014, 11:42 AM
I honestly don't think that is a big ask. You don't need to change everyone to change the way an organization/company does things.

Companies constantly shake up management to make these kind of high level changes that will be implemented throughout that company coming from a new president or CEO. Changing everyone below management isn't a pre-requisite to drastic change in an organization.

Employees adapting to new management is hardly undiscovered territory. It happens every day.

And its not just "saying things" this is his plan to running this organization. Thats another thing he has said "don't listen to the fan/media hysteria. Stick to your plan no matter what". That is the advice he recieved from the GMs he sought advise from. He will be sticking to this plan.

He's told the coach that his system isn't good enough and needs to be changed.
And he's told the scouting staff that they need to draft more skilled players.

It's all easy enough to say but I wonder if they're actually capable, that's all.

Volcanologist
05-19-2014, 11:47 AM
It's great that he's identified the draft as a crucial area of weakness. I'm not sure these same guys are magically going to start drafting better players all of a sudden though.

MyNameIsJonas
05-19-2014, 11:49 AM
i dont get asking scouts/coaches to change philosophies.

Just hire new coaches/scouts with the philosophies you want in place.

LeafGm
05-19-2014, 11:57 AM
It's great that he's identified the draft as a crucial area of weakness. I'm not sure these same guys are magically going to start drafting better players all of a sudden though.
Don't be silly. All he needs to do is tell Nonis to manage better, tell Carlyle to coach better and tell the scouts to draft better, and all will be well.

Such is the power of Shanahan.

leafman101
05-19-2014, 12:06 PM
i dont get asking scouts/coaches to change philosophies.

Just hire new coaches/scouts with the philosophies you want in place.

Scouts don't have philosophies. The go scout players and make their rankings based on the instructions from above.

A scout changing its focus is something they have all dealt with and have to deal with. Every single one of them.

Its really not an issue at all. Happens regularly. Cleaning house a month before the draft makes no sense.

leafman101
05-19-2014, 12:09 PM
It's great that he's identified the draft as a crucial area of weakness. I'm not sure these same guys are magically going to start drafting better players all of a sudden though.

Different players are better IMO. You aren't going to win at drafting wasting high picks on guys like Biggs and Gauthier.

In fairness though, when those guys have gone after skill they have done a tremendous job and brought in players (Kadri, Reilly, Finn). Its not like you can fairly say these guys have never turned up a good, skilled player from the draft.

They just weren't typically looking for that kind of prospect. based on their ability to turn up those types of guys it would suggest that they can do it. Nothing suggests they can't. They have done it.

leafman101
05-19-2014, 12:12 PM
Don't be silly. All he needs to do is tell Nonis to manage better, tell Carlyle to coach better and tell the scouts to draft better, and all will be well.

Such is the power of Shanahan.

Yeah because no one else in the history of time has ever been able to improve on weaknesses before.

I get not liking Nonis and Carlyle, but to pretend like its impossible for them to do things differently under different leadership with a different mandate is just a weird position to take.

hockeylover
05-19-2014, 12:25 PM
They did actually think Biggs had Top 6 potential though. As did many here.

leafman101
05-19-2014, 12:27 PM
They did actually think Biggs had Top 6 potential though. As did many here.

No one thought Biggs had a high ceiling.

CH1
05-19-2014, 12:27 PM
Most team presidents have the same "vision" as Shanahan. Like someone else said, it comes down to execution.

leafman101
05-19-2014, 12:28 PM
Most team presidents have the same "vision" as Shanahan. Like someone else said, it comes down to execution.

Burke and Nonis didn't. JFJ didn't.

Thats not to say Shanny is some great innovator here. Of course other sucessful managers have similar "visions". Shanny certainly isn't reinventing the wheel here. He sought counsel from experienced winning GMs like Holland.

Leafin'
05-19-2014, 12:29 PM
Every GM talks big game, few(especially in Toronto) succeed.

hockeylover
05-19-2014, 12:29 PM
No one thought Biggs had a high ceiling.

Many people here argued that drafting a potential power forward was actually a very "high reward" pick based on scarcity of that type of player.

leafman101
05-19-2014, 12:30 PM
Many people here argued that drafting a potential power forward was actually a very "high reward" pick based on scarcity of that type of player.

Thats not a high ceiling.

Lets not start to pretend like Biggs was picked for any other reason than truculence.

CH1
05-19-2014, 12:32 PM
Shanahan did not invent "skill over size". The reality is you need a mix of both. In any case, it's a useless recipe unless you have a staff of great cooks.

leafman101
05-19-2014, 12:33 PM
Shanahan did not invent "skill over size". The reality is you need a mix of both. In any case, it's a useless recipe unless you have a staff of great cooks.

Thats what I said. He isn't reinventing the wheel here. No one said he is.

There is no need to. But to pretend like the head of the organization doesn't matter at all is just retarded. Of course it matters. More than the cooks in the kitchen.

CH1
05-19-2014, 12:36 PM
Thats what I said. He isn't reinventing the wheel here. No one said he is.

There is no need to. But to pretend like the head of the organization doesn't matter at all is just retarded. Of course it matters. More than the cooks in the kitchen.

I agree, it's very important, primarily because the head gets to hire those who can best carry out the vision. So far, only assistant coaches have been turfed. I would have expected more.

leafman101
05-19-2014, 12:39 PM
I agree, it's very important, primarily because the head gets to hire those who can best carry out the vision. So far, only assistant coaches have been turfed. I would have expected more.

More than that has changes. You say Shanny didn't invent the "skill over size" thing but you fail to recognize that the organization hasn't operated in that way.

Scouts consistently adapt to changing mandates from management. Like "skill over size" Shanahan didn't invent changing the mandates given to coaches/scouting either.

Hes not the first guy to do that, and won't be the last.

Its an odd stance to take that scouts can't change their focus to reflect managements plan. They do it all the time. Thats the important part.

With the exact same scouting staff the Leafs drafts over the last 5 years would have been quite different with Shanahan in charge.

CH1
05-19-2014, 12:41 PM
You won't see the effect of Shanny Scouting for another 5 years and that's if the picks hit the nail on the head. What are you going to do in the meantime?

leafman101
05-19-2014, 12:44 PM
You won't see the effect of Shanny Scouting for another 5 years and that's if the picks hit the nail on the head. What are you going to do in the meantime?

So they should clean house in the meantime so we won't be what? Bored?

I don't get your logic here at all.

If anything, yeah its going to take 5 years to really see what Shanny is trying to do here. So chill. its been a month.

hockeylover
05-19-2014, 12:54 PM
Thats not a high ceiling.

Lets not start to pretend like Biggs was picked for any other reason than truculence.

I just read the Biggs thread a few days ago. It's pages upon pages of you, Player, Mbow, Preston, etc pretending he wasn't picked for just truculence.

Anyways, I'd be happy to see them go for higher upside picks, I just treat "We're going to draft more skilled players" like a campaign promise until I actually see the plan in action.

hockeylover
05-19-2014, 12:55 PM
With the exact same scouting staff the Leafs drafts over the last 5 years would have been quite different with Shanahan in charge.

I'm pretty skeptical of this.

leafman101
05-19-2014, 01:16 PM
I'm pretty skeptical of this.

Do you think they would have drafted Biggs and Gauthier under Shanahan? Yes or no.

leafman101
05-19-2014, 01:18 PM
I just read the Biggs thread a few days ago. It's pages upon pages of you, Player, Mbow, Preston, etc pretending he wasn't picked for just truculence.

So we were right then?


Anyways, I'd be happy to see them go for higher upside picks, I just treat "We're going to draft more skilled players" like a campaign promise until I actually see the plan in action.

I'm not giving him credit for things he hasn't done. I am only giving him credit for what he has done. And that is change the way this organization is planning to approach key areas. That was the most important factor in this regime change IMO. That they finally identify the right things to do differently. Thats it.

JackBurton
05-19-2014, 01:26 PM
JFJ's drafting was actually the best the Leafs have had in a long time. They should have hired him as head of scouting.

hockeylover
05-19-2014, 01:30 PM
Do you think they would have drafted Biggs and Gauthier under Shanahan? Yes or no.

I think it's quite possible that they would've made the case to Shanahan that Biggs was a top 6 player, as they seemed to believe, and that Shanahan would've deferred to his scouting staff for a pick in the 20s, sure.

Not sure about Gauthier since the pick was higher and the scouts said on draft day that they thought he was likely a 3rd line center.

Edit: My apologies, for some reason I was thinking the Gauthier pick was higher than Biggs but regardless - they said on draft day he was likely a third line C.

BG
05-19-2014, 01:47 PM
You better have amazing amateur scouts, and a keen development system if you decide to start looking at high bust/high reward players. I don't think our amateur scouting has been much of a weakness. We may have a couple of "homeruns" from our late picks already, but only time will tell.

JackBurton
05-19-2014, 01:50 PM
With the Leafs money, they should have the best scouting.

leafman101
05-19-2014, 02:13 PM
I think it's quite possible that they would've made the case to Shanahan that Biggs was a top 6 player, as they seemed to believe, and that Shanahan would've deferred to his scouting staff for a pick in the 20s, sure.

Not sure about Gauthier since the pick was higher and the scouts said on draft day that they thought he was likely a 3rd line center.

Edit: My apologies, for some reason I was thinking the Gauthier pick was higher than Biggs but regardless - they said on draft day he was likely a third line C.

Scouts base their rankings on what kind of players they are told to look for by the GM. Burke/Nonis evidently told them to look for size and toughness. Shanny is telling them to look for skill and high upside. Neither Biggs, nor Gauthier fit that profile, and that would likely reflect in our scouts rankings.

leafman101
05-19-2014, 02:15 PM
Oh yeah and I just remembered using advanced stats instead of blindly ignoring them as another positive Shanny change.

number17
05-19-2014, 05:10 PM
When Dale Tallon took over the Blackhawks organization in 2005 and quickly started turning things around, he already had 7 years of experience in the Hawk's front office, having worked as amateur scout, director of players personnel, assistant GM.

Shanny has 0 front office experience in any NHL club.

That's why I'm not convinced we'll be the next Blackhawks organization.

I mean, who doesn't know to build a dynasty you need to draft well, develop well, and coach well?? Every GM knows that, few actually figure it out.

leafman101
05-19-2014, 05:16 PM
Changing the mandate to a focus on high skill, high ceiling players is as good a start as any.

Montana
05-19-2014, 05:43 PM
I couldn't agree more with everyone 101 has said.......scouts jobs are to evaluate talent, which includes determining what players ultimate upsides might be and how safe/risky they are.....it's the mandate from above that dictates whether teams go for the safer players, or the higher upside and higher risk players.

Same scouts but with Shannahan in charge would unquestionably lead to a very different pool of players over our last 5-7 drafts.

number17
05-20-2014, 09:33 AM
So, we're to believe Shanny can make scouting better with the same scout, coaching better with the same coach, and probably players better with the same player?

Man can we get 2 Shanny's? We can win a cup every single year then!!! :)

And I used to think I'm an optimist ... :)

LeafGm
05-20-2014, 09:56 AM
So, we're to believe Shanny can make scouting better with the same scout, coaching better with the same coach, and probably players better with the same player?

Man can we get 2 Shanny's? We can win a cup every single year then!!! :)

And I used to think I'm an optimist ... :)
...and all without ever having spent a day of his life working in management, scouting or coaching at any level of hockey.

Brendan Shan-THE-MAN-ahan truly is a prodigy.

CRL
05-20-2014, 10:11 AM
Sounds like bunch of golf buddy's trying to run a team, they are together until titanic hits the surface.

leafman101
05-20-2014, 10:15 AM
It's so weird that people would think a new presidents effect cannot be felt throughout an organization without replacing everyone.

May as well not even have presidents and CEOs. Apparently they do nothing others than hire and fire people.

corksens
05-20-2014, 10:15 AM
I thought the recipe to success wasn't drafting - but amassing first round talent no matter where it comes from.

That's been this boards goto for the past 2-3 years.

Bleedsblue&white
05-20-2014, 10:15 AM
...and all without ever having spent a day of his life working in management, scouting or coaching at any level of hockey.

Brendan Shan-THE-MAN-ahan truly is a prodigy.

That's just the opposite end of the spectrum from the guys who have him failing before he's started.
So...leafland as usual

ForeverTML
05-20-2014, 10:16 AM
...and all without ever having spent a day of his life working in management, scouting or coaching at any level of hockey.

Brendan Shan-THE-MAN-ahan truly is a prodigy.

heh, changing the upper management will not result in a change in the 'skill' of workers - they are what they are.

number17
05-20-2014, 10:30 AM
That's just the opposite end of the spectrum from the guys who have him failing before he's started.
So...leafland as usualHmmm so we can't evaluate a person before he's started a job? I wonder how we choose the personnel ... oh that's right, we read their resume and evaluate them based on their past experience and pedigree ... and Shanny's resume is completely blank under "NHL club management experience".

Now it doesn't mean he's bound to fail, but there are obviously legitimate reasons for pessimism.

AND, don't pretend he hasn't done anything! He has made a key decision already - retaining Carlyle as headcoach.

He has also publicly endorsed bringing Bolland back (this, with his GM just getting into contract negotiation with the player's agent too ... guess how many times his agent will bring this up during the $$ and terms negotiation?)

And he's also given many interviews, preaching on changing without changing people. That, alone, especially from an inexperienced President, is reason enough to be very concerned unless you are the utmost optimist. Like ForeverTML said, people are what they are ... there are good players, then there are bad players; there are good scouts, then there are bad scouts ... to get better in this business, the usual approach is to use better people, not try to make bad people better.

Bleedsblue&white
05-20-2014, 10:35 AM
Ah yes, legitimate reasons for pessimism, but no legitimate reasons for optimism.
Like I said, leafland.

hockeylover
05-20-2014, 10:54 AM
If it makes you feel better to pretend that the normally optimistic Leaf fans who are being pessimistic right now are just always like that, then go for it.

It's not true though.

Volcanologist
05-20-2014, 10:55 AM
The message is that the roster needs to change. Nonis has effectively been dethroned for that reason.

If they don't change the roster, then it's time to start getting pissed off. But it's May 20th, let's give them a chance to make some deals.

I think July 2 will be a good time to start thinking evaluation. We'll know what their decision was on Dion, Bolland, and the the other free agents and we'll know what if anything they did at the draft. There would still be time in the offseason to do more stuff, but we'll know a ton more about what the plans are than we do right now. At the moment they're playing it pretty close to the vest in terms of who could be moved, as one would expect.

hockeylover
05-20-2014, 11:00 AM
I still think he's an idiot for saying he wants to resign Bolland.

:shrug

number17
05-20-2014, 11:28 AM
I still think he's an idiot for saying he wants to resign Bolland.

:shrugHe is an idiot for wanting to re-sign Bolland, and also for saying he wants to re-sign Bolland.

But, it's a minor thing, it's not nearly as big a mistake as retianing Carlyle IMO ... but that has been beaten to death so I won't go there again.

We will see what roster moves he makes in the summer.

I just find it hard to be optimistic when he has very much adopted the 'we're desperate for a change, but we'll keep our personnel the same' approach throughout all his interviews, and also through his action thus far. He's keeping Carlyle, he's keeping Dion, he's keeping Bolland ... etc etc etc.

Bleedsblue&white
05-20-2014, 11:54 AM
If it makes you feel better to pretend that the normally optimistic Leaf fans who are being pessimistic right now are just always like that, then go for it.

It's not true though.

Actually, what I'm suggesting is Shanny has had no chance yet. None. You have nothing to measure him by. Hell, it might take three seasons before we see his fingerprints and their effects. Maybe.
Nobody has an idea, and I"m going to wait. I'm not optimistic, I'm just waiting.

Bleedsblue&white
05-20-2014, 11:55 AM
We're Leaf fans, we should be able to do that.

leafman101
05-20-2014, 12:06 PM
Things Shanahan has changed in a month on the job:

1. 3 coaches
2. Style of play
3. Draft strategy
4. Free agency strategy
5. Analytics strategy


Can we stop pretending like he isn't making any changes, and is just staying the course? It doesn't make any sense.

I don't mind pessimism about the changes he is making. But to harp on the lack of change flies in the face of what is happening.

hockeylover
05-20-2014, 12:09 PM
Um, he hasn't really done any of that yet.

He's just talked about it.

leafman101
05-20-2014, 12:12 PM
That is his plan for this team going forward. What do you mean he hasn't done it yet? Its the plan.

The organizations approach to those areas have changed. Period.

hockeylover
05-20-2014, 12:17 PM
Talking about changes and actually making the changes are two different things.

leafman101
05-20-2014, 12:18 PM
The changes are made. Thats why he is talking about them.

MyNameIsJonas
05-20-2014, 12:21 PM
Things Shanahan has changed in a month on the job:

1. 3 coaches
2. Style of play
3. Draft strategy
4. Free agency strategy



5. Analytics strategy


Can we stop pretending like he isn't making any changes, and is just staying the course? It doesn't make any sense.

I don't mind pessimism about the changes he is making. But to harp on the lack of change flies in the face of what is happening.

Like doing a paint job on a house with no doors.

leafman101
05-20-2014, 12:24 PM
Like doing a paint job on a house with no doors.

Those are far more fundamental changes than a paint job. Changing the type of player they draft? Chaning the system they play on the ice? Firing 3 coaches? Using advanced stats? You don't think any of those are meaningful changes?

But yeah, you kind of have a point. This isn't a teardown. They have said that from the beginning. There are good pieces here, and they don't think they need to blow it up and start from scratch.

And frankly I don't see many that disagree.

MyNameIsJonas
05-20-2014, 12:27 PM
Those are far more fundamental changes than a paint job. Changing the type of player they draft? Chaning the system they play on the ice? Firing 3 coaches? Using advanced stats? You don't think any of those are meaningful changes?

But yeah, you kind of have a point. This isn't a teardown. They have said that from the beginning. There are good pieces here, and they don't think they need to blow it up and start from scratch.

And frankly I don't see many that disagree.


Okay, so they fixed the plumbing but hired the same shitty plumbers to do the job, just asked them to do it differently.

leafman101
05-20-2014, 12:30 PM
Okay, so they fixed the plumbing but hired the same shitty plumbers to do the job, just asked them to do it differently.

The only thing worse than criticizing Shanahan for not making any changes are your analogies.

Shanahan has made fundamental changes to this organization. End of story. You can't argue otherwise without ignoring all of the facts.

That is not to say that they will produce successful results. But changes have been made. Big ones. And its only been a month.

hockeylover
05-20-2014, 12:34 PM
The only thing worse than criticizing Shanahan for not making any changes are your analogies.

Shanahan has made fundamental changes to this organization. End of story. You can't argue otherwise without ignoring all of the facts.

That is not to say that they will produce successful results. But changes have been made. Big ones. And its only been a month.

He plans to make fundamental changes. The proof will be in his actions.

leafman101
05-20-2014, 12:35 PM
He plans to make fundamental changes. The proof will be in his actions.

Do you think he is just doing this off the cuff. He has a plan that will guide how this organization operates moving forward. And it is fundamentally different than the last guys plan.

Shanahan's plan for this organization is far more important than any foot soldier, whether it be a coach or scout.

And he said it bluntly. The most important advice he got was to stick to the plan.

Those changes have already been made. Their ultimate success or lack-there-of do not change that fact.

number17
05-20-2014, 12:37 PM
He HAS made changes though!!! He's already fired 3 assistant coaches!

And I expect that will set the tone for the rest of the summer ....

Bleedsblue&white
05-20-2014, 12:37 PM
Things Shanahan has changed in a month on the job:

1. 3 coaches
2. Style of play
3. Draft strategy
4. Free agency strategy
5. Analytics strategy


Can we stop pretending like he isn't making any changes, and is just staying the course? It doesn't make any sense.

I don't mind pessimism about the changes he is making. But to harp on the lack of change flies in the face of what is happening.


Tell me, what are the effects? What's that...you don't ****ing know? Because we haven't played a ****ing game yet?
Oh.

hockeylover
05-20-2014, 12:39 PM
Do you think he is just doing this off the cuff. He has a plan that will guide how this organization operates moving forward. And it is fundamentally different than the last guys plan.

Shanahan's plan for this organization is far more important than any foot soldier, whether it be a coach or scout.

And he said it bluntly. The most important advice he got was to stick to the plan.

Those changes have already been made. Their ultimate success or lack-there-of do not change that fact.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/12/Kool_Aid_Man.jpeg

leafman101
05-20-2014, 12:39 PM
Tell me, what are the effects? What's that...you don't ****ing know? Because we haven't played a ****ing game yet?
Oh.

I never claimed his changes would be successful.

Only that he has unquestionably made them.

leafman101
05-20-2014, 12:40 PM
He HAS made changes though!!! He's already fired 3 assistant coaches!

.

Thats another thing, since when is firing assitant coaches not a change. it is in every other sport. If an NFL team replaces an offensive coordinator that has a huge impact. Same as if a pitching coach is replaced. But the guy who runs the defense or special teams in hockey? Nah they don't matter.

hockeylover
05-20-2014, 12:42 PM
It's really, really easy to sit there in May of your first year and say you're going to resist the temptation of a fix through free agency. And it's easy to say you're going to go for the home run pick before you've sat at the draft table and before you've had a home run pick bust on you. The plan has definitely been changed but the proof will be in how Shanahan conducts himself going forward. That's all. It's a lot of nice things he's said so far, but pardon me for wanting to wait and see.

leafman101
05-20-2014, 12:44 PM
It's really, really easy to sit there in May of your first year and say you're going to resist the temptation of a fix through free agency. And it's easy to say you're going to go for the home run pick before you've sat at the draft table and before you've had a home run pick bust on you. The plan has definitely been changed but the proof will be in how Shanahan conducts himself going forward. That's all. It's a lot of nice things he's said so far, but pardon me for wanting to wait and see.

I don't care about any of that. I never said you can't criticize Shanahan for anything.

Just the idea that it is status quo here and he hasn't changed anything is nuts. You just can't fairly criticize him for not making changes. At this point, as we sit here in May of his first season, he has changed almost everything he can.

I am not judging what hasn't happened yet. Only what has happened. Thats the only thing we have to judge him on.

ForeverTML
05-20-2014, 12:48 PM
Retaining everyone else in the organization except 3 assistant coaches is not change. Its the status quo. Period.

If it was as simple as saying matras about we have to ask people to change the way they do their jobs, then no one would ever be fired in professional sports.

This is not change. Its simply saying people will try to do their jobs differently now that they've been told to. Its largely the same people, with the same intelligence, with the same decision making capabilities. Now if you have confidence that somehow the same guy that signed David Clarkson to a 7 year god knows how much contract will automatically start making better decisons - then all power to you.

Bleedsblue&white
05-20-2014, 12:50 PM
It's really, really easy to sit there in May of your first year and say you're going to resist the temptation of a fix through free agency. And it's easy to say you're going to go for the home run pick before you've sat at the draft table and before you've had a home run pick bust on you. The plan has definitely been changed but the proof will be in how Shanahan conducts himself going forward. That's all. It's a lot of nice things he's said so far, but pardon me for wanting to wait and see.

I am afraid we may wait longer than we'd like.
Mbow got me thinking about a few things. Going through another coach already would be a bad sign. That's one. The big one is, we've heard that MLSE did not expect the playoffs...they did not think the team was ready and they were probably right.
I think they are trying to do the right things, but this team's been a mess for a while, and I'm afraid the fix is not easy.

leafman101
05-20-2014, 12:51 PM
Now if you have confidence that somehow the same guy that signed David Clarkson to a 7 year god knows how much contract will automatically start making better decisons - then all power to you.

Only Nonis, the guy that made that decision, doesn't have decision making power anymore. But I guess that doesn't count as a change either.

hockeylover
05-20-2014, 12:55 PM
It doesn't make a lick of sense to me why you wouldn't just fire him if you don't trust him to make any decisions anymore.

leafman101
05-20-2014, 12:58 PM
Because he was one of the top assistant GMs in the league for a lot of years, has a ton of experience, and has no problem being the #2.

Nonis was good at the job they want him to do.

Pronger84
05-20-2014, 12:59 PM
It doesn't make a lick of sense to me why you wouldn't just fire him if you don't trust him to make any decisions anymore.

I'm not so sure its as much as not trusting Nonis as much as it is TL realizing he's not intelligent when it comes to hockey. He realized he doesn't know it all which IMO is why he went out and hired a middle man in Shanhan, someone to deal with the day to day hockey operations of the Leafs and to be a middle man between him and Nonis. Don't take this as me defending Nonis though, he's been a questionable GM here and hasn't done much to make this team better, he should have been fired ages ago, why he wasn't I have no clue.

Pronger84
05-20-2014, 01:02 PM
I am afraid we may wait longer than we'd like.
Mbow got me thinking about a few things. Going through another coach already would be a bad sign. That's one. The big one is, we've heard that MLSE did not expect the playoffs...they did not think the team was ready and they were probably right.
I think they are trying to do the right things, but this team's been a mess for a while, and I'm afraid the fix is not easy.

The problem is a few things

1. They are building their team the entire wrong way by building around the wings as opposed to down the middle and on the blueline like most other teams do
2. Trading away a lot of their picks for a quick fix
3. Resorting to overpaying for free agents because they lack depth, which goes back to point #2

ForeverTML
05-20-2014, 01:09 PM
Only Nonis, the guy that made that decision, doesn't have decision making power anymore. But I guess that doesn't count as a change either.

Nonis, Loiselle, Poulin, Fletcher, Dir of Pro scouting. All still here.

So...all of them have no decision making power? Are you serious?

leafman101
05-20-2014, 01:12 PM
I am afraid we may wait longer than we'd like.
Mbow got me thinking about a few things. Going through another coach already would be a bad sign. That's one. The big one is, we've heard that MLSE did not expect the playoffs...they did not think the team was ready and they were probably right.
I think they are trying to do the right things, but this team's been a mess for a while, and I'm afraid the fix is not easy.

Its not an easy fix. The kind of whole sale roster changes people around here were talking about are impossible to accomplish in an offseason. I think my first lineup-your-lineup post included Stastny, Staal, Jagr and Iginla. The likelihood of getting any of those guys is extremely small. You can only make improvements where they are available to you.

They can be a playoff team, especially in the east, but the roster won't be perfected by October.

leafman101
05-20-2014, 01:12 PM
Nonis, Loiselle, Poulin, Fletcher, Dir of Pro scouting. All still here.

So...all of them have no decision making power? Are you serious?

They haven't reviewed the assistants in the front office yet. Shanny said that when they fired the assistant coaches. If changes will be made here they wouldn't have happened yet.

So its kind of hard to judge that at this point.

BG
05-20-2014, 01:25 PM
Everyone just needs to settle down. If this young team isn't ready for playoff hockey - then they have been rewarded with a top 10 pick. Shanahan will calm everyone down, and take control of team oversight. Nonis is just too much of a wallflower, especially coming from a Burke-run team. Team identity is something that has been seriously lacking the last 2 seasons, and if Clarkson was the answer - the answer was no.

corksens
05-20-2014, 01:43 PM
Going back to the original premise of this thread - if you can't see that Toronto doesn't have anything close to Kane, Toews, and Keith, then you aren't watching the same games as everyone else.

number17
05-20-2014, 01:49 PM
Thats another thing, since when is firing assitant coaches not a change. it is in every other sport. If an NFL team replaces an offensive coordinator that has a huge impact. Same as if a pitching coach is replaced. But the guy who runs the defense or special teams in hockey? Nah they don't matter.Because this isn't any other sports. It's NHL.

Give me an example of the last time replacing the assistant coaches turned an NHL team around.

Meanwhile, I can give you one that didn't - T.O. already pulled that same trick with Wilson, and Wilson was fired 10 months later his assistants were replaced.

leafman101
05-20-2014, 02:01 PM
Because this isn't any other sports. It's NHL.

Give me an example of the last time replacing the assistant coaches turned an NHL team around.

Meanwhile, I can give you one that didn't - T.O. already pulled that same trick with Wilson, and Wilson was fired 10 months later his assistants were replaced.

Oh one example where it didn't make the team an overnight success? Surely assistant coaches mean nothing.

Its a ridiculous argument. of course assistant coaches matter.

The NHL isn't different from other sports. To say that it doesn't matter who is in charge of the defense, or the PK, or the PP and changing those people doesn't make any difference is absurd.

Bleedsblue&white
05-20-2014, 02:11 PM
I just wanted to add; even if this mngmnt group can do it, that doesn't preclude mistakes. This team can't handle any more though.
I don't know if Clarkson will get 15 goals any year he's here, but they better think reeaally hard about the next big contract.

Volcanologist
05-20-2014, 02:18 PM
Going back to the original premise of this thread - if you can't see that Toronto doesn't have anything close to Kane, Toews, and Keith, then you aren't watching the same games as everyone else.

Kessel is every bit as good as Patrick Kane.

no argument on the other two.

number17
05-20-2014, 02:29 PM
Oh one example where it didn't make the team an overnight success? Surely assistant coaches mean nothing.

Its a ridiculous argument. of course assistant coaches matter.

The NHL isn't different from other sports. To say that it doesn't matter who is in charge of the defense, or the PK, or the PP and changing those people doesn't make any difference is absurd.You are saying keeping the coach but replacing the assistant coaches can make significant changes and turn a team around.

I'm still waiting for 1 single example in the NHL where this has happened.

If it's so ridiculous I'm sure you can come up with 1 example, right?

corksens
05-20-2014, 02:30 PM
Kessel is every bit as good as Patrick Kane.

no argument on the other two.Point for point in the regular season? Sure.

But Kane is straight up clutch. Something Kessel hasn't proven to be yet.

Montana
05-20-2014, 02:38 PM
"clutch"




That premise never stops being adorable.

corksens
05-20-2014, 02:39 PM
Scoring big goals at critical tight moments is a myth?

When you do it a bunch of times you have earned the label.

Montana
05-20-2014, 02:46 PM
He's sprinkled with such a perfect amount of "clutch" fairy dust that his career pace (78pts) is virtually identical to his career post season pace (76pts)


Who'd a thunk it.

corksens
05-20-2014, 02:52 PM
Heh.

Scoring at a virtually identical pace when the games are harder, faster and tighter isn't the "same" - it's better.

Then of course there are three OT goals in this playoff run alone, being a part of two previous cup winning teams, and this...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy4UZbtxxkY

Matrim
05-20-2014, 02:56 PM
Kane = Kessel
Rielly, I believe has a chance to become as good as Keith.
JVR is similar to Sharp, and could be just as good down the road.
Kadri is another potential elite talent for that 2nd line.

No the Leafs don't have a Toews, and the other two are only maybe's but the Leafs already have that game breaking talent in Kessel, which is why going after a Sam Bennett, Aaron Ekblad or Sam Reinhart would be ideal.

Volcanologist
05-20-2014, 03:00 PM
Point for point in the regular season? Sure.

But Kane is straight up clutch. Something Kessel hasn't proven to be yet.

Kessel's playoff numbers look pretty good to me so far.

gilmour93forever
05-20-2014, 03:07 PM
The big change this team needs is to go drug-free in 2014-15.

gilmour93forever
05-20-2014, 03:12 PM
On a more serious note, I think Nonis is a great builder for someone else's vision. Look at how well he did putting all the pieces together for Burke's deals and then let Burke put the final pieces in place to close everything off. I think a Shanahan-Nonis combo could work in quite the same way.

JVR - ________ - Kessel
Lupul - Kadri - _______

Rielly - Phaneuf
Gardiner - ______

Bernier

There's your core, figure the rest out.

Montana
05-20-2014, 04:07 PM
Heh.

Scoring at a virtually identical pace when the games are harder, faster and tighter isn't the "same" - it's better.

Then of course there are three OT goals in this playoff run alone, being a part of two previous cup winning teams, and this...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy4UZbtxxkY



A-dorable.



I'm half surprised you don't still believe in the Easter Bunny as well.

Pronger84
05-20-2014, 04:21 PM
Going back to the original premise of this thread - if you can't see that Toronto doesn't have anything close to Kane, Toews, and Keith, then you aren't watching the same games as everyone else.

I think Kessel is pretty similar to Kane in terms of being skilled yet soft wingers who put up close to a point per game. I agree, we don't have anything close to Toews and I think that's the big problem which is relying on building wingers yet not seeking a bonified top centre, that's what the Leafs need to focus on going forward, actually it should be their top priority. Keith? No we don't have anything like him, but Rielly could be very similiar to Seabrook down the line.

corksens
05-20-2014, 04:28 PM
A-dorable.



I'm half surprised you don't still believe in the Easter Bunny as well.What is your argument here?

leafman101
05-20-2014, 04:35 PM
Kessel's playoff production is higher than his regular season production.

I think we can pretty safely say that Kane isn't what the the Leafs are missing. Toews, Hossa, Keith, maybe Sharp, yeah fair enough.

corksens
05-20-2014, 04:53 PM
Perhaps the gulf isn't all that huge as it is with the other players listed - but I think its fair to say that virtually everyone here would take Kane over Kessel.

hockeylover
05-20-2014, 05:09 PM
They're nearly identical players statistically. One has had team success and the other one hasn't. There's no "gulf".

leafman101
05-20-2014, 05:13 PM
On the same team at the Olympics Kessel played ahead of him.

blacksheep
05-20-2014, 05:47 PM
On the same team at the Olympics Kessel played ahead of him.

Never let inconvenient facts stand in the way of Corky's Leaf jabs.

Volcanologist
05-20-2014, 05:47 PM
Perhaps the gulf isn't all that huge as it is with the other players listed - but I think its fair to say that virtually everyone here would take Kane over Kessel.

Nah man. Maybe 2-3 years ago, before Kessel established himself as an elite scorer. Not now.

Kane is a great player, but he plays on a way better team with way better centres. I don't think the Leafs would have been any more successful this year with 20 Cent in the lineup instead of Thrill.

blacksheep
05-20-2014, 05:48 PM
You are saying keeping the coach but replacing the assistant coaches can make significant changes and turn a team around.

Worked for Ron Wilson.
Oh wait...

Pronger84
05-20-2014, 05:55 PM
Perhaps the gulf isn't all that huge as it is with the other players listed - but I think its fair to say that virtually everyone here would take Kane over Kessel.

Difference is Kessel plays with Bozak, Kane playes with Toews, the difference is the quality of players each play with, the gap between Kessel and Kane as players isn't as big as you make it out to be.

blacksheep
05-20-2014, 05:59 PM
All you can judge at this point is the problems Shanny has identified and his ideas for addressing them. Obviously nothing has happened yet so you can't judge any more than that.

But IMO he has identified the biggest problems this organization has had:
1. The draft. They have been picking safe, big players instead of high ceiling players. In that same article Morrison admits that Gauthtier was a safe puck, unlike others around here have speculated. This has been a huge achilles heel of this organization for a long, long time.
His only fix for this is a memo to change the type of player they draft? Yeah, that oughta work...


2. The system. He realized, down to a tee the exact flaw in the way the Leafs play hockey, and is going to change the way they play.
... by keeping the exact same coach in place. Hmmmmm....


3. Their approach to free agency. He recognized that signing big name free agents doesn't work most of the time. Nonis has recently said they won't be looking at the same types of guys they have in the past, but rather they will look for older guys, and shorter term deals.
... but let's keep Bolland and Clarkson. Bolland says he wants to stay here anyways. ???


This is all that has come out so far that I've really liked. We'll see what happens, but I like that he is working on addressing the right problem areas. Thats the right first step.

So far, all he's done is talk. Promises, promises. We've heard them all before. There's been very little action, other than the firing of some background personnel. The scouts are the same. The head coach is the same. There are no players bought out. And so far, nothing tangible to pin any real hopes on.
Just talk.
Since 1967, the promise of greatness continues. We promise!!
Shanny has not impressed at all yet. If he wanted to restore Leaf Nation's faith, his very first move should have been to fire all of the coaching staff, not just the assistants.
His next move should have been to buy out Clarkson. I know it would hurt our cap, but it would help our lineup, and that's a better reason.
Bolland should not be re-signed, and he shouldn't have been talking about his plans for Bolland already.
From my standpoint, Shanny talks the talk, but doesn't walk the walk. We're in for more failure, and he hasn't lifted a finger yet to right the ship.

leafman101
05-20-2014, 06:14 PM
So far, all he's done is talk. Promises, promises. We've heard them all before. There's been very little action, other than the firing of some background personnel. The scouts are the same. The head coach is the same. There are no players bought out. And so far, nothing tangible to pin any real hopes on.
Just talk.

Come on. Its not promises its his plan. Its how he will conduct the business of the Leafs. Its such a load of crap thay we've heard it all before. Burke was talking about how he had no patience, and wanted to win right away and wanted trucculence. And what did he spend the next few years doing? Excatly what he said he was going to because that is how plans work.

Shanny is preaching a DIFFERENT plan.



From my standpoint, Shanny talks the talk, but doesn't walk the walk. We're in for more failure, and he hasn't lifted a finger yet to right the ship.

He's been here a month and the offseason hasn't even started yet.

Pronger84
05-20-2014, 06:21 PM
Come on. Its not promises its his plan. Its how he will conduct the business of the Leafs. Its such a load of crap thay we've heard it all before. Burke was talking about how he had no patience, and wanted to win right away and wanted trucculence. And what did he spend the next few years doing? Excatly what he said he was going to because that is how plans work.

Shanny is preaching a DIFFERENT plan.



He's been here a month and the offseason hasn't even started yet.

How so? It's wording, all he has said is "There will be cultural changes" which is vague at best. After saying that, he elects to keep the entire front office, he keeps the coach, so far all players are here still.... the only thing that has been done is the assitance coaches being canned. The off-season hasn't started yet? Yes it has, it started in mid April for the Leafs, from that point on they were/are able to sign players, release players, fire management, make trades (as long as its not with a current playoff team) etc...

blacksheep
05-20-2014, 06:21 PM
Come on. Its not promises its his plan. Its how he will conduct the business of the Leafs. Its such a load of crap thay we've heard it all before. Burke was talking about how he had no patience, and wanted to win right away and wanted trucculence. And what did he spend the next few years doing? Excatly what he said he was going to because that is how plans work.

Shanny is preaching a DIFFERENT plan.
It's always a plan. Every few years, we get a different man at the top, and every few years, a different plan along with it.
And here we still are. Again.
Wash.
Rinse.
Repeat.
You're damn right we've heard it all before.


He's been here a month and the offseason hasn't even started yet.

Fair enough. And that's why I can't fault him for not signing anybody or trading for anybody.
But buying out Clarkson can be done now.
Firing Carlyle should have already been done.
Deciding to not offer Bolland his big dollar deal can be done now.
We don't have to wait for the offseason to start for those three big changes to be made.

leafman101
05-20-2014, 06:32 PM
How so? It's wording, all he has said is "There will be cultural changes" which is vague at best.

Thats not all he said.

leafman101
05-20-2014, 06:32 PM
It's always a plan. Every few years, we get a different man at the top, and every few years, a different plan along with it.
And here we still are. Again.
Wash.
Rinse.
Repeat.
You're damn right we've heard it all before.




Sure, but what does that have to do with Shanahan.

I'm not saying he'll definitely work out here. All I am saying is I like some of the changes he is talking about.

uncus
05-20-2014, 07:01 PM
First, I would take Kessel over Kane in a second.
Put Kessel with Toews and you have the leagues leading scorers.
Trade Phaneuf, the 8th and Lupul to the panthers for the first overall pick this year and their 1st pick next season as well.
Next, If Shanahan is smart then he keeps Carlyle up to the trade deadline and pray the leafs are floundering. It is then that you can unload the crap and get something of value back (everyone always over values players at the trade deadline before the playoffs).
Hope you get one if the top 3 picks in the draft next season, and then go after Stamkos who I think is a UFA at the end of next season.
That gives you a young and dynamic blueline of Rielly, Gardner, Finn, Ekblad. (10 years of pure magic with those 4 lol)
A core of forwards with Stamkos, Kessel and JVR.
There is your Chicago comparison ...... if if if lol

uncus
05-20-2014, 07:26 PM
Stamkos is a UFA in 16 ... so 2 years .... let me the first to welcome Steven to the Toronto maple leafs lol

TimHorton
05-20-2014, 08:04 PM
Fair enough. And that's why I can't fault him for not signing anybody or trading for anybody.
But buying out Clarkson can be done now.
Firing Carlyle should have already been done.
Deciding to not offer Bolland his big dollar deal can be done now.
We don't have to wait for the offseason to start for those three big changes to be made.

No it can't
Yes it should have
He hasn't offered him anything

Bleedsblue&white
05-20-2014, 08:47 PM
Blah blah blah

Aren't you happy being the resident idiot of just about every other thread in here? Not enough for you? Sheep is right...

Leafin'
05-20-2014, 09:06 PM
Kessel and Kane play totally different, tough to compare the two. I like both. What we need are guys that play defense. Hossa and Sharp are great defensive players. Our comparable are Lupul and JVR, both awful defensively.

Needless to say, we are ways away from being the Chicago Blackhawks.

MyNameIsJonas
05-20-2014, 10:21 PM
I think Kessel is pretty similar to Kane in terms of being skilled yet soft wingers who put up close to a point per game. I agree, we don't have anything close to Toews and I think that's the big problem which is relying on building wingers yet not seeking a bonified top centre, that's what the Leafs need to focus on going forward, actually it should be their top priority. Keith? No we don't have anything like him, but Rielly could be very similiar to Seabrook down the line.

Rielly in no way will be similar to Seabrook

Have you ever seen Seabrook play?
Or Rielly for that matter?

Rielly projects more like Keith.

hockeylover
05-20-2014, 10:24 PM
Rielly in no way will be similar to Seabrook

Have you ever seen Seabrook play?
Or Rielly for that matter?

Rielly projects more like Keith.

Think so too. Weird thing to say.

MindzEye
05-20-2014, 10:24 PM
Rielly was directly compared to Keith & Karlsson pre draft.

MyNameIsJonas
05-20-2014, 10:25 PM
Rielly was directly compared to Keith & Karlsson pre draft.

yup, and in no way on earth is Seabrook.

MindzEye
05-20-2014, 10:31 PM
No. Ryan Murray would be more of a Seabrook type defensive prospect

Deckie007
05-20-2014, 10:58 PM
Difference is Kessel plays with Bozak, Kane playes with Toews, the difference is the quality of players each play with, the gap between Kessel and Kane as players isn't as big as you make it out to be.

Kane doesn't play with Toews when 5-on-5. He plays with Saad and Handzus.

Leafin'
05-20-2014, 11:10 PM
Then we need a Toews to carry another line for us. Having more than 1 line that can score is crucial.

Most importantly though, our team defence must improve.

blacksheep
05-21-2014, 04:51 PM
Aren't you happy being the resident idiot of just about every other thread in here? Not enough for you? Sheep is right...

Aren't you happy being the resident ******* who can't decide whether or not to use the ignore feature in just about every other thread? You go out of your way to piss people off. You must be Corksens' twin brother.

blacksheep
05-21-2014, 04:53 PM
No it can't
Yes it should have
He hasn't offered him anything

He says he will. He says he wants to keep Bolland. Why?
He didn't fire the head coach, but plans on changing how the team is coached. Really?
All talk. No action.
Wash.
Rinse.
Repeat.
I hope Nick Beverley still works for us. We might need him behind the bench again soon.

Bleedsblue&white
05-21-2014, 05:01 PM
Aren't you happy being the resident ******* who can't decide whether or not to use the ignore feature in just about every other thread? You go out of your way to piss people off. You must be Corksens' twin brother.
Nope, wrong guy.
Dick.

gilmour93forever
05-21-2014, 05:02 PM
Kessel and Kane play totally different, tough to compare the two. I like both. What we need are guys that play defense. Hossa and Sharp are great defensive players. Our comparable are Lupul and JVR, both awful defensively.

Needless to say, we are ways away from being the Chicago Blackhawks.

JVR is actually pretty respectable defensively, taking a lead role on our PK. While yes our PK wasn't great this year, his length and ability to disrupt passing lanes is something that will continue to help him develop his defensive zone play. He's not a stalwart by any means in his own zone, but he's at least respectable.

Lupul is just lazy and needs to get rid of his entitled style of play. When he puts in some effort, the guy has loads of natural talent that transfers well to the NHL game.

Pronger84
05-21-2014, 05:04 PM
Kane doesn't play with Toews when 5-on-5. He plays with Saad and Handzus.

Oh ok, I was wrong.

blacksheep
05-21-2014, 05:06 PM
Nope, wrong guy.
Dick.

I was right, then. A$$.

Bleedsblue&white
05-21-2014, 05:22 PM
I was right, then. A$$.

Nope. I do know you are the guy who is loved like kb.
That's some love.

Bleedsblue&white
05-21-2014, 05:24 PM
Lol, if I got along with you I'd have to re-evaluate my humanity.

blacksheep
05-21-2014, 11:27 PM
Lol, if I got along with you I'd have to re-evaluate my humanity.

Or... you could just be civil.
But nah! Then you wouldn't fit in around these parts. That's why I'm so loved here. I don't roll like you (<-- plural) do.

corksens
05-22-2014, 10:43 AM
Or... you could just be civil.
But nah! Then you wouldn't fit in around these parts. That's why I'm so loved here. I don't roll like you (<-- plural) do.You are so loved (sarcastically, of course) around here because you are a complete idiot.

leafman101
05-22-2014, 11:21 AM
Here is why the Leafs suck today. Most hockey people say it takes 5 years to really evaluate a draft, so Burke's first draft is just getting to that point now. However, in the decade leading up to Burke all they did was trade away high picks, and the players they drafted with them.

From 2001 to 2008, all the Leafs have to show from first and second round picks is Kulemin, and JVR via the Schenn trade.

In that span they flat out traded away 6 first and second round picks for nothing that lasted more than a couple years in Toronto, and exacerbated that by trading Steen, Rask, Colaiacovo, and Tlusty for nothing.

The only players the Leafs held onto from the first two rounds of those 9 drafts are Kulemin, Pilar and John Doherty. That has to be one of, if not the worst, early round draft production over that span. It set the organization back a decade.

Moral of the story, don't trade Kadri, Gardiner, or anymore picks.

number17
05-22-2014, 12:15 PM
But the problem is, I don't think the Leafs' roster / farm system sucks at all.

Kessel, JVR, Kadri are solid pieces for the top 6, Bozak and Lupul are nice complimentary pieces. All of them still have space for improvement, but most of them are also young-ish enough (except Lupul) they can still become better players.

On the backend Phaneuf is a 40-50 points defenseman in a regular season that can play the tough minutes. Gardiner, Rielly have top 4 potential too.

The Leafs have no shortage of 3rd line / 4th line, 3rd unit players coming through the system ... but we sure lack top end talent in the system.

In goal we have 2 young goalies in Bernier and Reimer.

This isn't a bad young team at all. With trades, band-aid UFA signings we can build a contender based on these pieces.

Why are we not in the playoff then?

Well, there are many mistakes that got us to this point ...

- Phaneuf plays 25+ tough minutes every game carrying Gunnarson, who is really a #4 (or #5 with a bad hip) on most good teams. Our ex-GM continues to gamble with a #4 guy on top unit, instead of going after guys like JBo who were available in the market.

- Our ex-GM, despite talking about a truculent brand of hockey, has built a skilled, fast but smallish group of forwards, who loses pretty much every puck battle along the board. When our current GM realizes the short-coming, he made the biggest acquisitions in Clarkson and Bolland to address this issue.

- We play a system that give up the highest shots per game not just in the league, but also one of the historic worst. Many few lesser teams in terms of personnel have played much better defence than us.

- Even then, because of our goaltending our GA 5on5 is actually respectable ... but our coach makes sure we're among the worst GAA team in the league with an abysmal PK system

- Our coach continues to play goons who can't play hockey on the 4th line, our 3rd line has subpar offensive players, resulting in the lowest offensive input from 3rd, 4th line among pretty much all of NHL. Plus, this leaves our youngsters stuck in the AHL because McLaren and Orr were regulars for most of the season.

- Our coach also incorrectly assess talent level of his players, playing 4th liner, PK specialist in a checking role, or even offensive role at times of injury when there are better choices available.

- The team has no experience among its leadership group, resulting in weak mental strength in tough stretches of the season or playoff. Phaneuf is the most experienced defenseman and Lupul the most experienced forward among the core group. Neither has extensive NHL or playoff experience.

There are many other reasons that got us to this point, but those are the biggest problems why we're where we are despite a pretty decent group of core players to build on.

Bleedsblue&white
05-22-2014, 03:52 PM
You are so loved (sarcastically, of course) around here because you are a complete idiot.

Seriously. Everybody here has somebody they have friction with, and people they get along with....except BS. Have to admit I don't understand spending time with a group of people where you have no peers...but like I said, I'm glad I don't understand.

leafman101
05-22-2014, 04:09 PM
But the problem is, I don't think the Leafs' roster / farm system sucks at all.


Now imagine the roster with an extra 10 years worth of 1st and 2nd round picks like every other contender.

Set the Leafs back a decade.

leafman101
05-22-2014, 04:19 PM
1st/2nd round picks on the roster 2001-2008
Chicago - Keith, Crawford, Seabrook, Bickell, Toews, Kane
LA - Brown, Kopitar, Doughty, Voynov
St. Louis - Backes, Oshie, Berglund, Peitrangalo
Piisrburgh - Crosby Malkin, Fleury
Boston - Bergeron, Krejci, Lucic
Montreal - Price, Pacioretty, Subban
Minnesota - Koivu, Harding, Scandella
Anaheim - Getzlaf, Perry
Rangers - Staal, Stepan
San Jose - Vlasic, Couture
Leafs - Kulemin

Not getting anything out of high draft picks for 9 years has a massive, massive impact. For years.

leafman101
05-22-2014, 04:24 PM
Also, with the exception of Montreal, that is where all those teams got #1 centers. Crosby, Malkin, Toews, Kopitar, Backes, Bergeron, Koivu, Getzlaf, Stepan, Couture. Aside from the contenders Washington got Backtrom, Philly Giroux, Colorado Stastny, and Tampa Stamkos with 1st or 2nd round picks between those years as well.

You can't get these kinds of players if you trade all your picks. Odds in the draft aren't great. You need to consistently make picks, and not trade away the ones you do make.

corksens
05-22-2014, 04:25 PM
Seriously. Everybody here has somebody they have friction with, and people they get along with....except BS. Have to admit I don't understand spending time with a group of people where you have no peers...but like I said, I'm glad I don't understand.His name couldn't be more apt.

Bleedsblue&white
05-22-2014, 04:25 PM
Don't put Crosby in there leafman...that's luck.

hockeylover
05-22-2014, 04:27 PM
Even just reversing the two bullshit John Ferguson goalie moves makes a huge difference.

Rask, 1st, 2nd, 4th for two really shitty goaltenders.

The first and the second was packaged for the 9th overall = Logan Couture.

leafman101
05-22-2014, 04:28 PM
Don't put Crosby in there leafman...that's luck.

Yeah, but with the Leafs luck they would've traded that pick. Can't get lucky if you don't pick.

hockeylover
05-22-2014, 04:31 PM
With how many picks and recent high draft picks this franchise has traded away already, I am really, really nervous that we trade Kadri/Gardiner this summer and it makes us look silly. Again.

leafman101
05-22-2014, 04:37 PM
With how many picks and recent high draft picks this franchise has traded away already, I am really, really nervous that we trade Kadri/Gardiner this summer and it makes us look silly. Again.

They've finally started to stock the cupboards, and we are just going to start to see the results this year with Kadri, D'Amigo, McKegg and Granberg as legitimate shots to make the team from the 2009 and 2010 drafts. Percy, Leivo, Nilson and Broll don't seem far away from 2011. Then 2012 looks real good with Rielly, Finn and Brown.

It would be a fatal mistake to start moving these guys and picks again.

Blueman
05-22-2014, 04:39 PM
1st/2nd round picks on the roster 2001-2008
Chicago - Keith, Crawford, Seabrook, Bickell, Toews, Kane
LA - Brown, Kopitar, Doughty, Voynov
St. Louis - Backes, Oshie, Berglund, Peitrangalo
Piisrburgh - Crosby Malkin, Fleury
Boston - Bergeron, Krejci, Lucic
Montreal - Price, Pacioretty, Subban
Minnesota - Koivu, Harding, Scandella
Anaheim - Getzlaf, Perry
Rangers - Staal, Stepan
San Jose - Vlasic, Couture
Leafs - Kulemin

Not getting anything out of high draft picks for 9 years has a massive, massive impact. For years.

Well we did get kessel for two of out first rounders..

leafman101
05-22-2014, 04:42 PM
Well we did get kessel for two of out first rounders..

2010 and 2011 first rounder.s I didn't include those year because Burke took over in 2009 and, Kessel trade aside, actually started to use picks and keep the prospects.

Even with the Kessel trade we had more 1st and 2nd round picks from the 2009-2012 drafts on the roster than from 2001-2008.

Pronger84
05-22-2014, 06:35 PM
With how many picks and recent high draft picks this franchise has traded away already, I am really, really nervous that we trade Kadri/Gardiner this summer and it makes us look silly. Again.

I'm fine with trading either of those players as long as its for a need, and not some sideway deal or player pushing the end of his career. It's moving the draft picks that I find concerning-

O-Byrne- 2nd rounder
Bolland- 2nd rounder, 4th rounder, 4th rounder
Bernier- 2nd rounder

Waste of assets for a rental in O'Byrne, if Bolland walks (this is me speculating lol) then we piss away 2 more assests. The only exception would be Bernier, that was the one time I had no beef tossing away a 2nd rounder.

hockeylover
05-22-2014, 06:37 PM
You really find moving 2nd rounders more concerning than moving 23/24 year old recent top 10-20 picks who've already shown they're NHLers?

Pronger84
05-22-2014, 06:41 PM
You really find moving 2nd rounders more concerning than moving 23/24 year old recent top 10-20 picks who've already shown they're NHLers?

Moving them for rental players I have a big issue with, but I have no sentimental attachments to any of the roster players if moving them makes the team better in the long run then pull the trigger.

hockeylover
05-22-2014, 06:44 PM
Moving them for rental players I have a big issue with, but I have no sentimental attachments to any of the roster players if moving them makes the team better in the long run then pull the trigger.

Do you have sentimental attachments to 2nd round picks?

Pronger84
05-22-2014, 06:46 PM
Do you have sentimental attachments to 2nd round picks?

Nope I don't but while were on the subject of picks, that's how you build teams.... very few big name players are traded and even fewer make it to UFA. Why do you think teams like Detroit, LA, Chicago etc are so successful? It's because they draft smartly, they keep their picks and they are extremely good at letting them develop in the minors before calling them up.

leafman101
05-22-2014, 06:47 PM
The problem is it doesn't make the team better in the long run. Keeping them does. They are still young. Their trade value isn't at its peak yet.

hockeylover
05-22-2014, 06:52 PM
Nope I don't but while were on the subject of picks, that's how you build teams.... very few big name players are traded and even fewer make it to UFA. Why do you think teams like Detroit, LA, Chicago etc are so successful? It's because they draft smartly, they keep their picks and they are extremely good at letting them develop in the minors before calling them up.

I'm not disputing your "keep your picks, draft smartly, and let them develop" strategy but I think trading them too soon almost makes the first part a total waste.

Pronger84
05-22-2014, 07:29 PM
The problem is it doesn't make the team better in the long run. Keeping them does. They are still young. Their trade value isn't at its peak yet.

Kadri is 24, coming off a very productive season and still an RFA which makes him easier to control... a lot of teams would kill to have him on their roster. Gardiner is coming off his best season and he is a borderline top 4D, again he holds a lot of value now. The risk is if you keep them there's no gurantee they can even get better, of course they can but its not a sure fire thing either, both players value is currently at a peak, again if you can move them to upgrade the team then you have to pull the trigger.

leafman101
05-22-2014, 07:37 PM
No their value isn't at its peak. Thats the same stupid mistake this organization has been making forever. Steen, Colaiacovo, Tlusty, Damphousse, Courtnall.

They are both really talented, and have had success at the NHL level. Neither has even played 200 NHL games. It doesn't make your team better to trade those guys.

leafman101
05-22-2014, 07:51 PM
And lets not forget that the Leafs capitalized on two teams making the same stupid mistake with Kessel and JVR.

At 23
Kessel - 374 gp, 128 gls, 245 pts (82 gp, 28 gls, 54 pts)
Kadri - 177 gp, 46 gls, 113 pts (82 gp, 21 gls, 52 pts)
JVR - 244 gp, 65 gls, 131 pts (82 gp, 22 gls, 44 pts)

blacksheep
05-23-2014, 12:04 AM
You are so loved (sarcastically, of course) around here because you are a complete idiot.

Always back to the namecalling, eh fvcknuts? As if I even give two shits what you or BBW think of me.

Matrim
05-23-2014, 12:10 AM
And lets not forget that the Leafs capitalized on two teams making the same stupid mistake with Kessel and JVR.

At 23
Kessel - 374 gp, 128 gls, 245 pts (82 gp, 28 gls, 54 pts)
Kadri - 177 gp, 46 gls, 113 pts (82 gp, 21 gls, 52 pts)
JVR - 244 gp, 65 gls, 131 pts (82 gp, 22 gls, 44 pts)

So much this.

blacksheep
05-23-2014, 12:12 AM
The problem is it doesn't make the team better in the long run. Keeping them does. They are still young. Their trade value isn't at its peak yet.

This.
However, we also need to change how they are coached. I don't have any faith in Carlyle getting the best out of our youth, with his system. I also don't believe this imperative from above to change his coaching style and the firing of his assistants will make that happen.

Bleedsblue&white
05-23-2014, 08:05 AM
Always back to the namecalling, eh fvcknuts? As if I even give two shits what you or BBW think of me.

If you didn't care you'd say nothing. That's not caring.

leafman101
05-23-2014, 08:33 AM
This.
However, we also need to change how they are coached. I don't have any faith in Carlyle getting the best out of our youth, with his system. I also don't believe this imperative from above to change his coaching style and the firing of his assistants will make that happen.

Carlyle definitely has to prove himself when it comes to coaching the team. However, when it comes to getting the most out of the youth before Carlyle got here Kadri was jerked around by the organization, moved out of position and never given a fair shot. Since Carlyle was hired Kadri was given a prominent role at center and scored 38 goals and 94 points over the last two seasons (62 point pace), which btw is 18th among centers in the NHL for those suggesting they should trade him.

Pronger84
05-23-2014, 01:17 PM
Carlyle's done some things right, such as putting players in roles to succeed I'll give him credit for that, both Kadri and Gardiner have blossomed under his totualage even if he was a bit of a hard ass with them at times.

blacksheep
05-24-2014, 11:42 PM
Carlyle definitely has to prove himself when it comes to coaching the team. However, when it comes to getting the most out of the youth before Carlyle got here Kadri was jerked around by the organization, moved out of position and never given a fair shot. Since Carlyle was hired Kadri was given a prominent role at center and scored 38 goals and 94 points over the last two seasons (62 point pace), which btw is 18th among centers in the NHL for those suggesting they should trade him.

Jerked around? How so? Kadri was a young player who was and is still developing. Like any other young player with lots of skills, he'll get bounced around, moved from position to position, line to line, in and out of the doghouse while the coaching staff try their best to aid his development. Kadri is coming along just fine, and I don't think Carlyle is the key reason why. He'd be at this level no matter who was guiding him along. He's that good.

JackBurton
05-24-2014, 11:46 PM
Maybe L.A is that team instead after this series.

BTW, not enough love for Darryl Sutter. He turned that team around the second he got there and they've played terrific defensive hockey since. They were out of the playoffs when he arrived. Now they have been to 3 straight conference finals.

blacksheep
05-24-2014, 11:47 PM
If you didn't care you'd say nothing. That's not caring.

If you were truly that bothered by me, you'd ignore me. But you just can't resist jumping in to throw your barbs. You truly need to stop stroking your own ego. Your opinion of me doesn't make a difference to my life at all.

Bleedsblue&white
05-25-2014, 07:27 AM
If that was true, you'd stop responding. Try it.
I can resist, I choose not to. Why don't you try being the better man and just shut up?

blacksheep
05-28-2014, 05:00 PM
If that was true, you'd stop responding. Try it.
I can resist, I choose not to. Why don't you try being the better man and just shut up?

Funny, I was just wondering that about you. That is, after all, the point of my last couple replies to you.
I'm not the one choosing not to resist just so that I can throw a barb your way. Your ego is incredible.

Bleedsblue&white
05-28-2014, 05:03 PM
Funny, I was just wondering that about you. That is, after all, the point of my last couple replies to you.
I'm not the one choosing not to resist just so that I can throw a barb your way. Your ego is incredible.

I'm doing it because I'm bored, and I'm curious to see if you can go without getting the last word.
Yes, my ego is incredible...if that's an insult to you I can see yet again why you are so annoying to me.
That and the fact that you won't admit who you were before. That's cowardly.

blacksheep
05-28-2014, 05:07 PM
You think I want to have the last word?? That's funny stuff...
But thanks for admitting that you're simply pissed that you don't know who I was. I'm sure you'll live more stress free with that burden off your chest. lol

Montana
05-28-2014, 05:08 PM
Just for the record....Bleeds is in fact the better man/poster.

blacksheep
05-28-2014, 05:13 PM
Just for the record....Bleeds is in fact the better man/poster.

Gee, I'm so disappointed I failed to medal in that contest... and I bet you really care about that, too.

Bleedsblue&white
05-28-2014, 05:18 PM
You think I want to have the last word?? That's funny stuff...
But thanks for admitting that you're simply pissed that you don't know who I was. I'm sure you'll live more stress free with that burden off your chest. lol

Actually, I enjoy guessing.

I always hated LS, and BH was a dick too. To be clear, it's not about knowing who you are, it's the fact that you hide it.
That says it all really.
Make sure you reply now, I'll miss you if you don't, I'm sure.

Bleedsblue&white
05-28-2014, 05:21 PM
Tell you what, I don't want this thread to devolve anymore...

Bleedsblue&white
05-28-2014, 05:21 PM
So...I guess we'll see if the Leafs are on the right path sometime in the next year or so.

rated
05-28-2014, 08:54 PM
Just for the record....Bleeds is in fact the better man/poster.

+1

Deckie007
05-28-2014, 09:05 PM
Just for the record....Bleeds is in fact the better man/poster.

Not exactly setting the bar high, I'm afraid.

:loveys: Bleeds.

Bleedsblue&white
05-28-2014, 10:31 PM
Depends what you mean by high.