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Metalleaf
08-27-2014, 12:59 AM
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/report-nhl-expansion-to-vegas-a-done-deal/


NHL commissioner Gary Bettman has said publicly that expansion isn’t something the league has seriously considered, but a recent report says otherwise.

According to The Vancouver Province’s Tony Gallagher, an expansion team in Las Vegas is “a done deal.”

“Sources close to the situation have indicated Las Vegas is a done deal, the only thing to be determined being which owner will be entitled to proclaim that he brought the first major league sports franchise to Sin City.”

With a team in Las Vegas “all but assured,” Gallagher also implies that talk of a Seattle expansion isn’t without merit as many potential owners – including Vancouver billionaire Victor Coleman – have shown plenty of interest.

The biggest obstacle facing Seattle is the lack of an NHL-calibre arena, as Bettman explained on Sportsnet 590 The Fan in June is that “the building situation is very unsettled and frankly if there was no reasonable prospect of a building coming anytime soon.”

The addition of two teams in the Western Conference would pull it even with the 16-team Eastern Conference. However, Gallagher indicates the NHL could expand beyond only two teams, mentioning Quebec City and Kansas City.

People are speculating about Toronto getting a second team as well.

LeafGm
08-27-2014, 01:10 AM
I don't really care much about expansion anywhere else, but the reports about a Toronto expansion team better be untrue. It's bad enough that the city is already infested with Habs fans. Dealing with the little-brotherish, bandwagon fans of some other Toronto team as well would be a major pain in the ass.

JackBurton
08-27-2014, 09:03 AM
Going to Vegas feels like such a 90's NHL expansion. Stupid, stupid idea.

CTheBigPicture
08-27-2014, 09:31 AM
I don't really care much about expansion anywhere else, but the reports about a Toronto expansion team better be untrue. It's bad enough that the city is already infested with Habs fans. Dealing with the little-brotherish, bandwagon fans of some other Toronto team as well would be a major pain in the ass.

I'll always be a fan of the Leafs but if the second team has the name Toronto somethiners, I'll be a casual fan of those guys too.

If this happens, I really hope it puts additional pressure on the Leafs to get things right. The new team would likely have a few back to back top talents coming via the draft. They'd have a great core as a result and could easily surpass the Leafs in the standings and win a cup before the Leafs do. That'd be quite embarrassing. Hopefully the Leafs will react and focus on not letting that happen by winning.

CTheBigPicture
08-27-2014, 09:32 AM
Going to Vegas feels like such a 90's NHL expansion. Stupid, stupid idea.


It's crazy for many many more reasons than just one.

Metalleaf
08-27-2014, 09:47 AM
Would be interesting to see if the NHL can work in Vegas...they'd be the first pro sports league there.

UWHabs
08-27-2014, 10:11 AM
If the rumours of throwing 4 new teams are true, then I think that's a little too much. I'd rather see them add 2 teams, say LV and Seattle, then see how the dust settles for a couple years.

MindzEye
08-27-2014, 10:16 AM
I think Vegas is just crazy enough to work. Tons of corporate support (It will probably be someone like Steve Wynn who does this), only pro sports game in town.

worm
08-27-2014, 10:57 AM
Vegas is back to booming....isnt it?

Habsy
08-27-2014, 11:28 AM
I don't really care much about expansion anywhere else, but the reports about a Toronto expansion team better be untrue. It's bad enough that the city is already infested with Habs fans. Dealing with the little-brotherish, bandwagon fans of some other Toronto team as well would be a major pain in the ass.

Another team in Toronto will probably attract some of the non-Leaf fans living there so your problem with other fan bases will simply shift. Since there would be no history of hatred, the new team will attract fans.

Habsy
08-27-2014, 11:28 AM
Going to Vegas feels like such a 90's NHL expansion. Stupid, stupid idea.

It's Jerry Bruckheimer. He's been in Bettman's ear for years.

MindzEye
08-27-2014, 11:30 AM
Vegas is back to booming....isnt it?

Yep.

Even during the down years it wasn't bad. People with money are usually recession proof.

Habsy
08-27-2014, 11:41 AM
Yeah, Vegas might actually work. Especially if Bruckheimer teams up with another entertainment mogul (like Wynn as Mindz mentioned). They would make it work. Long reported Bruckheimer wants a team in Vegas. He's a huge hockey guy and absolutely loves the city.

LeafGm
08-27-2014, 11:51 AM
For me, the key point against a potential Toronto team is this:

In the past couple of years, Rogers has plunked down $660M for about a 40% stake in MLSE, and another $5.2B for the NHL broadcast rights. Is Bettman really going to thank them for that by sticking another NHL franchise right in their backyard just in time for the Leafs' 100th anniversary celebrations?

angelfish
08-27-2014, 12:11 PM
For me, the key point against a potential Toronto team is this:

In the past couple of years, Rogers has plunked down $660M for about a 40% stake in MLSE, and another $5.2B for the NHL broadcast rights. Is Bettman really going to thank them for that by sticking another NHL franchise right in their backyard just in time for the Leafs' 100th anniversary celebrations?

Screw the Leaf$ and screw ROGERS cuz of them I now have to get CI. Hope they loose buckets of money on their NHL broadcast monopoly. :facepalm

worm
08-27-2014, 12:16 PM
Screw the Leaf$ and screw ROGERS cuz of them I now have to get CI. Hope they loose buckets of money on their NHL broadcast monopoly. :facepalm

hehehe

this one always cracks me up

worm
08-27-2014, 12:17 PM
Yep.

Even during the down years it wasn't bad. People with money are usually recession proof.

Heard they are building up the north end of the strip again (those half finished projects, etc).

zeke
08-27-2014, 12:17 PM
A second toronto team would be awesome.

There should probably be three or four of them.

blacksheep
08-27-2014, 12:19 PM
A second toronto team would be awesome.

There should probably be three or four of them.

The area could definitely support it, but the NHL won't have it.
And I wonder how empty the seats will be this year in Phoenix?

worm
08-27-2014, 12:20 PM
A second toronto team would be awesome.

There should probably be three or four of them.

I cannot wait for the complaints about the media saying "Toronto Second Teamers are going to win the cup before the Leafs"

worm
08-27-2014, 12:20 PM
I would love to go to Vegas to watch the Habs play.

CTheBigPicture
08-27-2014, 12:39 PM
I cannot wait for the complaints about the media saying "Toronto Second Teamers are going to win the cup before the Leafs"


You won't hear that from me, cause the WILL win the cup before the Leafs. They'll draft their stud number 1 C, stud D, then in the 3rd year they'll draft a great winger, in the meantime they fill up their 3rd, maybe a couple of spots in the top two lines; by year 4 they have some of their draftees gain value and either start for them or used in trades. They'll sign two or three FA's in the meantime.

Ok Ok it won't be this easy but it's much easier to build with a signed number one C and a signed number one D, than it is to sign everyone else and wish for a Stamkos to fall out of sky and sign with you.

TheCountofMonteCristo
08-27-2014, 12:59 PM
If the rumours of throwing 4 new teams are true, then I think that's a little too much. I'd rather see them add 2 teams, say LV and Seattle, then see how the dust settles for a couple years.

Four is dumb since it would still leave an unbalanced league.

TheCountofMonteCristo
08-27-2014, 01:00 PM
I would love to go to Vegas to watch the Habs play.

I was thinking the same.

I wonder though if those Mexicans will be outside the gates handing out those cards.

hockeylover
08-27-2014, 01:04 PM
I want to like a second Toronto team but because of the cast of *******s it'll probably attract as fans, I'll probably end up hating them.

LeafOfFaith
08-27-2014, 01:48 PM
Expansion sucks shit.

All we need is to further dilute the talent pool by adding additional teams.

I'd rather we get rid of a couple, personally.

LeafOfFaith
08-27-2014, 01:48 PM
And adding another Toronto team would be the worst possible move they could make.

Habspatrol
08-27-2014, 01:50 PM
And adding another Toronto team would be the worst possible move they could make.

Yeah adding another team that's sure to sell out every night and likely be a top 5 revenue team immediately would be such a huge mistake.

LeafOfFaith
08-27-2014, 02:22 PM
It would tarnish the Leaf brand - which is arguably the most valuable brand in the NHL - and splinter its fan base.

Better to have one strong Leafs franchise than to have two little shit Toronto teams.

hockeylover
08-27-2014, 02:27 PM
I don't think it would hurt the Leafs. I think they'd get all the Leaf haters and there'd be an epic, epic rivalry.

Habspatrol
08-27-2014, 02:35 PM
It would tarnish the Leaf brand - which is arguably the most valuable brand in the NHL - and splinter its fan base.

Better to have one strong Leafs franchise than to have two little shit Toronto teams.

I see zero chance that the Leafs brand would be tarnished and very little splintering.

Metalleaf
08-27-2014, 02:38 PM
Manchester City doesn't hurt Manchester United's brand.....the New York Jets don't hurt the Giants brand.

Habspatrol
08-27-2014, 02:39 PM
Cubs and White Sox, Yankees and Mets.

Metalleaf
08-27-2014, 02:40 PM
I could argue the Mets hurt their own brand image...

LeafOfFaith
08-27-2014, 02:40 PM
I don't think it would hurt the Leafs. I think they'd get all the Leaf haters and there'd be an epic, epic rivalry.

It may well play out that way, but do we want a shitty Sens franchise in our own backyard? I just hate the idea entirely.

Living in a city where there's a Lakers and Clippers co-existing, I can see how it would be doable, but the little brother thing is so gay it sickens me.

LeafOfFaith
08-27-2014, 02:41 PM
I see zero chance that the Leafs brand would be tarnished and very little splintering.

Who would be the fans of the new team then?

Deckie007
08-27-2014, 02:48 PM
Not everyone in the GTA likes the Leafs...I know a lot of people that love hockey but don't watch the NHL because they have soured on the Leafs. Also a lot of people new to Canada that don't have the history of being a Leaf fan and would embrace a new team.

Habspatrol
08-27-2014, 02:50 PM
Who would be the fans of the new team then?

All the people that already hate the Leafs... new hockey fans... and some bandwagon jumpers too.

Metalleaf
08-27-2014, 02:53 PM
The Markham Beemer Drivers

Deckie007
08-27-2014, 03:00 PM
:lol

It's funny because it's true.

leafman101
08-27-2014, 03:08 PM
Toronto is a big enough city to support two teams.

While I don't think it would have any effect on the Leaf fan base immediately, in the long run it could if the Leafs have another 40 years like the last 40. People aren't born Leafs fans.

worm
08-27-2014, 03:40 PM
Toronto is a big enough city to support two teams.

While I don't think it would have any effect on the Leaf fan base immediately, in the long run it could if the Leafs have another 40 years like the last 40. People aren't born Leafs fans.

Yes they are.

MapleLeafBlueJayBoy
08-27-2014, 04:14 PM
The Markham Asians

UWHabs
08-27-2014, 04:18 PM
The Markham Asians

I was going to go with Markham Immigrants.

LeafGm
08-27-2014, 04:28 PM
I still say that if Toronto ever gets a second team, they need to play out of a new arena in Woodbridge called the Honda Civic Center.

CTheBigPicture
08-27-2014, 05:03 PM
They'd be dumb to call themselves Markham, Woodbridge, Mississauga, anything other than Toronto. They have to be named Toronto. It makes a big difference.


And no people aren't born Leafs' fans. Think about a teenager right now. How many good Leafs' teams they've seen? why would the cheer for them?

worm
08-27-2014, 05:18 PM
They'd be dumb to call themselves Markham, Woodbridge, Mississauga, anything other than Toronto. They have to be named Toronto. It makes a big difference.


And no people aren't born Leafs' fans. Think about a teenager right now. How many good Leafs' teams they've seen? why would the cheer for them?

Basically I look at it like political parties...chances are if you parents are leafs fans then you will be also.

LeafOfFaith
08-27-2014, 07:23 PM
The Leafs were shit when I was growing up in the 80s. It didn't make me love my hometown team any less or get obsessed with the game any less.

hockeylover
08-27-2014, 07:32 PM
I think it's just what you're exposed to. You'll either love them because of the exposure to them or hate them to be that ******* that has to shit on everything the people around you like :)

As for myself, I was born in Toronto, raised in a Toronto suburb and my dad won a Memorial Cup with what used to be the Leafs' farm team. No brainer.

TheCountofMonteCristo
08-27-2014, 07:35 PM
I want to like a second Toronto team but because of the cast of *******s it'll probably attract as fans, I'll probably end up hating them.
how will that be different from the Leafs fans?

hockeylover
08-27-2014, 07:36 PM
how will that be different from the Leafs fans?

Exhibit A, folks.

TheCountofMonteCristo
08-27-2014, 07:37 PM
Exhibit A, folks.
don't blame me just because you lead with your chin

blacksheep
08-27-2014, 10:51 PM
don't blame me just because you lead with your chin

As long as she wipes it when done, it's all good

corksens
08-28-2014, 09:23 AM
Ugh.

leafman101
08-28-2014, 09:29 AM
The Leafs were shit when I was growing up in the 80s. It didn't make me love my hometown team any less or get obsessed with the game any less.

Yeah but what if there was also the Toronto Whatevers and they were good.

JackBurton
08-28-2014, 09:31 AM
Why give that ****ing no good separatist Paladeau a team? I hope the networks never show the Quebec team. Ignore them.

If he runs them like a ran his election, they're in big trouble.

Metalleaf
08-28-2014, 09:34 AM
What? If they don't get what they want, they'll just separate and join the KHL?

JackBurton
08-28-2014, 09:35 AM
What? If they don't get what they want, they'll just separate and join the KHL?

The rest of Canada must pay expansion fees.

JackBurton
08-28-2014, 09:38 AM
"Markham Chinese Menus".

Done.

Deckie007
08-28-2014, 09:47 AM
So much casual racism itt.

JackBurton
08-28-2014, 09:51 AM
I did not say Markham Slant Eyes.

LeafGm
08-28-2014, 09:58 AM
Why give that ****ing no good separatist Paladeau a team? I hope the networks never show the Quebec team. Ignore them.

If he runs them like a ran his election, they're in big trouble.
Meh, Peladeau's irrelevant. The idiot managed to jump on to the seperatist bandwagon just as the whole movement is in the process of fading into obscurity. The insane zealot that's running the BQ will give the party it's coup de grâce in the next federal election, and I'm sure whatever mental midget the PQ picks to replace Marois will do the same for them. The Quebec independance movement (as any kind of serious political force) will die out with Quebec's baby boomers.

The bottom line for me is that it'd be fun to have another Quebec team to hate and likewise it'd be interesting to see the Habs and Nordiques rekindle their rivalry. Quebec City is also the 7th largest metro area in Canada, and every other city in the top-8 now has an NHL team. Just get it done.

Blueman
08-28-2014, 10:13 AM
Woodbridge Woppers

JackBurton
08-28-2014, 11:37 AM
Scarborough Black Pregnant Teens

TheCountofMonteCristo
08-28-2014, 01:02 PM
Meh, Peladeau's irrelevant. The idiot managed to jump on to the seperatist bandwagon just as the whole movement is in the process of fading into obscurity. The insane zealot that's running the BQ will give the party it's coup de grâce in the next federal election, and I'm sure whatever mental midget the PQ picks to replace Marois will do the same for them. The Quebec independance movement (as any kind of serious political force) will die out with Quebec's baby boomers.

The bottom line for me is that it'd be fun to have another Quebec team to hate and likewise it'd be interesting to see the Habs and Nordiques rekindle their rivalry. Quebec City is also the 7th largest metro area in Canada, and every other city in the top-8 now has an NHL team. Just get it done.

On the one hand, we have not won anything since the scum from Quebec left so it could light a fire under our ass and get us our 25th cup. On the other hand, why should we have to split our market up again? We already have to share with Ottawa for TV etc, then we would have to split it again. Maybe if Ottawa and Toronto had to split tv markets and we had to split with Quebec fine, but I don't see it as fair we have to split three ways without compensation.

LeafGm
08-28-2014, 02:07 PM
On the one hand, we have not won anything since the scum from Quebec left so it could light a fire under our ass and get us our 25th cup. On the other hand, why should we have to split our market up again? We already have to share with Ottawa for TV etc, then we would have to split it again. Maybe if Ottawa and Toronto had to split tv markets and we had to split with Quebec fine, but I don't see it as fair we have to split three ways without compensation.
What, are you a shareholder in the Habs? Why would you care about TV market shares?

TheCountofMonteCristo
08-28-2014, 02:11 PM
What, are you a shareholder in the Habs? Why would you care about TV market shares?

Are you in favour of another team in Toronto, if not, why not if you are not a shareholder in the Leafs?

We already have one team horning in our region, we shouldn't have to have another without compensation.

LeafGm
08-28-2014, 02:56 PM
Are you in favour of another team in Toronto, if not, why not if you are not a shareholder in the Leafs?

We already have one team horning in our region, we shouldn't have to have another without compensation.
I don't give a crap about TV rights or MLSE's profit margins though. That doesn't even enter into my thoughts on the matter at all.

I just don't want to have to deal with all of the shitty, bandwagon-jumping casual hockey fans in Toronto that would gravitate towards the new team, or have to listen to all the morons that would inevitably tell me that I should be cheering for both teams, since they're both from Toronto (which would be a more concentrated and constant version of the "you should cheer for the Canadian teams" mentality that takes hold in the playoffs).

worm
08-28-2014, 04:55 PM
Maroons > Canadiens

TheCountofMonteCristo
08-28-2014, 05:40 PM
Maroons > Canadiens

My grandfather and father were Maroon fans until they died, then they switched.

MindzEye
08-28-2014, 05:46 PM
Scarborough Black Pregnant Teens

Brampton Honour Killings

MindzEye
08-28-2014, 05:53 PM
In all seriousness though, Mississauga would clearly be the best choice for a "Toronto Lite" 2nd franchise location. Larger than Winnipeg, Quebec City, and Hamilton, easy highway access, soon to have properly integrated regional transit with Toronto, lots of real estate options for an arena.

Shit, put it in between Sauga and Brampton, and you'd have a local market larger than Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg, & Ottawa....as well as San Jose, Nashville, Columbus, Detroit and a bunch of other US market.

blacksheep
08-28-2014, 06:32 PM
In all seriousness though, Mississauga would clearly be the best choice for a "Toronto Lite" 2nd franchise location. Larger than Winnipeg, Quebec City, and Hamilton, easy highway access, soon to have properly integrated regional transit with Toronto, lots of real estate options for an arena.

Shit, put it in between Sauga and Brampton, and you'd have a local market larger than Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg, & Ottawa....as well as San Jose, Nashville, Columbus, Detroit and a bunch of other US market.

... and then there'd be two teams in SW Ontario carrying the financial load of the entire league.

Volcanologist
08-28-2014, 06:37 PM
I think the league has about 6 too many teams as it is...but if there was ever a business/team that is absolutely crying out for competition in its marketplace, it's the Maple Leafs.

hockeylover
08-28-2014, 08:05 PM
I don't really get when people suggest that having a 2nd team in Toronto will somehow make the Leafs better.

CH1
08-28-2014, 09:17 PM
I don't really get when people suggest that having a 2nd team in Toronto will somehow make the Leafs better.

The Habs were pretty good when they had the Nordiques competing for their fan base. 2 Cups in 15 years. None since then.

I am not counting 79 as the Habs were at the tail end of their dynasty.

I know it's causation more than correlation, but these types of neighbourhood rivalries can be quite exciting.

hockeylover
08-28-2014, 09:40 PM
The Habs were pretty good when they had the Nordiques competing for their fan base. 2 Cups in 15 years. None since then.

I am not counting 79 as the Habs were at the tail end of their dynasty.

I know it's causation more than correlation, but these types of neighbourhood rivalries can be quite exciting.

Weren't they REALLY good the 15 years before the Nordiques as well? Like 9 or 10 cups?

MindzEye
08-28-2014, 10:48 PM
I don't see the argument for competition not bringing the best (or worst) out of an organization. There's a difference between "wanting" to, and being forced to compete.

Bleedsblue&white
08-28-2014, 10:49 PM
I don't really get when people suggest that having a 2nd team in Toronto will somehow make the Leafs better.

The theory is a little success for the other team could translate into a massive shift in fanbase as Leaf fans finally have a way to show their displeasure.

So, money.

hockeylover
08-29-2014, 12:03 AM
I don't think lack of competition can be blamed for the Leafs lack of success and I don't buy that having competition in the market will necessarily result in icing a better hockey team, that's all. I don't know that they'll try any harder than they are now. It'd be kinda funny if we got a 2nd Toronto team in 2016 and that was the year a Shanny-run team finally turned it around though. Maybe "they were forced to compete" will be the narrative.

MindzEye
08-29-2014, 12:12 AM
I don't think lack of competition can be blamed for the Leafs lack of success and I don't buy that having competition in the market will necessarily result in icing a better hockey team, that's all. I don't know that they'll try any harder than they are now. It'd be kinda funny if we got a 2nd Toronto team in 2016 and that was the year a Shanny-run team finally turned it around though. Maybe "they were forced to compete" will be the narrative.

and if that was the case, the narrative would be bullshit.


Should the lack of in market competition be blamed for the Leafs lack of success? I honestly don't know, but it's a fairly interesting question. I do think they would conduct business a little differently if they were competing for market share with another hockey club though. I do believe the root cause in the Leafs lack of winning over the years to be ownership, and another club in market would have incestuous bullshit like Bogers ownership being far less likely.

hockeylover
08-29-2014, 12:18 AM
I don't believe the root cause of the Leafs lack of success was ownership not being forced to compete, I believe they just don't know how - ie. Incompetence/bad decisions not lack of effort.


I do think they would conduct business a little differently if they were competing for market share with another hockey club though.

Curious. How? If they put a team down in Mississauga tomorrow, what changes?

MindzEye
08-29-2014, 12:36 AM
I don't believe the root cause of the Leafs lack of success was ownership not being forced to compete, I believe they just don't know how - ie. Incompetence/bad decisions not lack of effort.

Bad decisions in business happen. Where MLSE has often been different is an issue we've complained about a lot on here. Accountability. If you accept the premise that in market competition would punish the Leafs financially for putting a shit product on the ice, you then have to accept that corporate level **** ups that lead to shit product on the ice would be punished harshly. An excellent example imo would be the Peddie/Quinn/JFJ saga. Quinn lost a corporate power play with Peddie, Peddie installs his guy into the GM chair. His guys doesn't produce better results and actually puts the club into maybe the worst position in the league for an impending salary cap (that almost everyone knew was coming). Does Peddie get punished for this? No, of course not, because on the business end, he's made his bosses gobs of coin. ****ing gobs. He rides off into the sunset years later, stating in an interview “I'm one of those rare CEOs who never got fired". In an environment where poor product on the ice is punished financially, he absolutely does get fired as his decision lead to hiring the architect of the clubs decline.

To expand that example for a moment. When JFJ goes to the board to pitch his plan to rebuild the club post lockout, and gets shot down because the board expects playoff revenue. If there's another club in town, and heaven forbid, a successful one, does the board get the **** out of the way? In a world where MLSE earnings aren't as sure as death and taxes, does the board defer to it's hockey people?




Curious. How? If they put a team down in Mississauga tomorrow, what changes?

The entire decision making ethos of the business. You're basically asking the question "if the ownership group is no longer assured it's massive brand power, no longer assured it's high earnings, would they run their business any different?"

hockeylover
08-29-2014, 12:49 AM
The entire decision making ethos of the business. You're basically asking the question "if the ownership group is no longer assured it's massive brand power, no longer assured it's high earnings, would they run their business any different?"

Yeah, but how? They've invested 200 million back into their three teams, told them to put a shitload of money into an analytics department and have a guy they appear to trust going forward in Shanahan. So I guess I just don't understand what they do differently from what they're doing right now if there's another team in Toronto. Can you think of anything specifically?

MindzEye
08-29-2014, 01:03 AM
Yeah, but how? They've invested 200 million back into their three teams, told them to put a shitload of money into an analytics department and have a guy they appear to trust going forward in Shanahan. So I guess I just don't understand what they do differently from what they're doing right now if there's another team in Toronto. Can you think of anything specifically?

Specifically? Sure. All of that, but all the time. Never cheaping out on it, never losing sight of that being the right way to compete. You seem to be taking very recent events and treating them like that's the way we're definitely going to do business from now on. What happens when Shanny steps on TL's replacements toes in a few years? Does the new TL punt Shanny and put his guy in Shanny's chair? What's that guys view on analytics? Who is going to hold them accountable? What if TL's replacement inks more highly profitable agreements to build more condos, making him ****ing bulletproof with the board?

Competition ensures that you get punished for making shitty decisions. When you get punished for making shitty decisions, you tend to learn to make better decisions. MLSE has never been punished financially for bad decision making. Competition would change that.

Volcanologist
08-29-2014, 09:41 AM
Yeah, that last paragraph was basically my thinking.

MLSE is fat, bloated sluggish and complacent. There have been no real tangible consequences for their decades of failure -- in fact, if anything, they're more profitable than ever. They need their cages rattled and being excoriated in the papers as a national laughingstock hasn't been enough motivation. That they can just ignore.

Maybe another team better than their own (hardly a difficult task) right under their noses would be something they could ignore less easily. I don't know.

LeafGm
08-29-2014, 10:02 AM
Specifically? Sure. All of that, but all the time. Never cheaping out on it, never losing sight of that being the right way to compete. You seem to be taking very recent events and treating them like that's the way we're definitely going to do business from now on. What happens when Shanny steps on TL's replacements toes in a few years? Does the new TL punt Shanny and put his guy in Shanny's chair? What's that guys view on analytics? Who is going to hold them accountable? What if TL's replacement inks more highly profitable agreements to build more condos, making him ****ing bulletproof with the board?

Competition ensures that you get punished for making shitty decisions. When you get punished for making shitty decisions, you tend to learn to make better decisions. MLSE has never been punished financially for bad decision making. Competition would change that.
God, I hate Richard Peddie.

I'm really not buying the whole "competition" angle though. Even if there was another johnny-come-lately expansion NHL franchise in Toronto that quickly became more competitive than the Leafs, would that ever result in empty seats at the ACC? Would there ever be unsold private boxes as a result? Would the TV ratings and money be any less lucrative? I don't really think so.

JackBurton
08-29-2014, 10:06 AM
In all seriousness though, Mississauga would clearly be the best choice for a "Toronto Lite" 2nd franchise location. Larger than Winnipeg, Quebec City, and Hamilton, easy highway access, soon to have properly integrated regional transit with Toronto, lots of real estate options for an arena.

Shit, put it in between Sauga and Brampton, and you'd have a local market larger than Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg, & Ottawa....as well as San Jose, Nashville, Columbus, Detroit and a bunch of other US market.

Agreed. Mississauga is the best choice.

hockeylover
08-29-2014, 10:17 AM
Competition ensures that you get punished for making shitty decisions. When you get punished for making shitty decisions, you tend to learn to make better decisions. MLSE has never been punished financially for bad decision making. Competition would change that.

Well, I guess I'm also not sure they'll ever really be punished financially either, even with a new team.

MindzEye
08-29-2014, 12:18 PM
Well, I guess I'm also not sure they'll ever really be punished financially either, even with a new team.

punished is a relative term of course. They'll never lose money, but the fan base would absolutely diminish given long enough periods of futility. Ratings would go down, and with it, the amount of money their worth in regional broadcasting contracts.

You think ownership wouldn't notice if the Leafs weren't maximizing revenue?

MindzEye
08-29-2014, 12:22 PM
God, I hate Richard Peddie.

I'm really not buying the whole "competition" angle though. Even if there was another johnny-come-lately expansion NHL franchise in Toronto that quickly became more competitive than the Leafs, would that ever result in empty seats at the ACC? Would there ever be unsold private boxes as a result? Would the TV ratings and money be any less lucrative? I don't really think so.


Basically you're saying that you don't think the Leafs would lose any fan base, regardless of the quality of the other club in town. I don't think that would be the case, I think there would potentially be a lot of fan base bleed if the other Toronto team was successful, and the Leafs were inept for a long period of time (like the period we're in right now, for example).

Volcanologist
08-29-2014, 12:44 PM
It's not even fanbase bleed. I think people underestimate both the number of people who are hockey fans but not Leaf fans in Toronto and the hunger for winning hockey in the market.

A new team would certainly service the first need and, at least relative to the Leafs performance the past 30-40 years, likely satisfy the second as well within a reasonable time frame.

hockeylover
08-29-2014, 12:50 PM
It's not even fanbase bleed. I think people underestimate both the number of people who are hockey fans but not Leaf fans in Toronto and the hunger for winning hockey in the market.

A new team would certainly service the first need and, at least relative to the Leafs performance the past 30-40 years, likely satisfy the second as well within a reasonable time frame.

I've always maintained a 2nd Toronto team would be a huge success mainly for this reason, I don't think that's in dispute.

I just don't think the Leafs will suddenly figure out how to ice a winner just because there's another team down the street, that's all really. It seems like wishful thinking to me. There's a bunch of people who think this will mean affordable tickets too.

TheCountofMonteCristo
08-29-2014, 01:18 PM
You would guarantee yourself three or four more home games as the Leaf fans would dominate the new team fans. Add that to your games in Ottawa and you are basically playing 47 home games a year.

MindzEye
08-29-2014, 01:56 PM
And the games in Buffalo

LeafGm
08-29-2014, 02:01 PM
Basically you're saying that you don't think the Leafs would lose any fan base, regardless of the quality of the other club in town. I don't think that would be the case, I think there would potentially be a lot of fan base bleed if the other Toronto team was successful, and the Leafs were inept for a long period of time (like the period we're in right now, for example).
Not exactly. What I'm saying is that the market and demand in the GTA for the Leafs and NHL hockey in general is so large that even if you had another NHL team in the market siphoning off their fan base, it still wouldn't be enough to make any appreciable difference to MLSE's bottom line.

I mean, honestly---no matter how successful a new NHL team was, can you ever foresee unsold seats at the ACC? Or a dramatic lowering of their TV ratings? I just can't see it happening.

LeafGm
08-29-2014, 02:05 PM
And the games in Buffalo
Florida too. Even our game in Minnesota last year had the atmosphere of a Leaf home game.

TheCountofMonteCristo
08-29-2014, 02:08 PM
True although I think we have more fans in Florida than the Leafs do. The Panthers deliberated moved our xmas game there from Dec 31 so that the Panthers wouldn't have to end the calendar year being outnumbered fan wise 14000 -2000

LeafGm
08-29-2014, 02:23 PM
True although I think we have more fans in Florida than the Leafs do. The Panthers deliberated moved our xmas game there from Dec 31 so that the Panthers wouldn't have to end the calendar year being outnumbered fan wise 14000 -2000
Yeah, I have no doubt that there are plenty of Canadiens fans among the snowbirds as well. As soon as they moved the Florida teams into our division, it was extra home games for both our teams. Though I'm sure the actual "home" teams aren't complaining about the extra ticket sales in those games.

TheCountofMonteCristo
08-29-2014, 03:18 PM
Yeah, I have no doubt that there are plenty of Canadiens fans among the snowbirds as well. As soon as they moved the Florida teams into our division, it was extra home games for both our teams. Though I'm sure the actual "home" teams aren't complaining about the extra ticket sales in those games.

yep

it is a little less in Tampa as they have more of a fanbase but even in the playoffs last year, we probably had 6000 fans at the game.

Toronto and Montreal have home crowds in Ottawa, Buffalo, Florida, Tampa, Minnesota and often Long Island, out west Calgary, Edmonton and Vancouver have large contingents with less in Winnipeg for now but that will change when the Jets original tickets holders no longer have to keep season's tickets

MindzEye
08-29-2014, 06:14 PM
Not exactly. What I'm saying is that the market and demand in the GTA for the Leafs and NHL hockey in general is so large that even if you had another NHL team in the market siphoning off their fan base, it still wouldn't be enough to make any appreciable difference to MLSE's bottom line.

I mean, honestly---no matter how successful a new NHL team was, can you ever foresee unsold seats at the ACC? Or a dramatic lowering of their TV ratings? I just can't see it happening.

It wouldn't take a dramatic lowering, any decline would be met with panic on the corporate level.

leafman101
08-29-2014, 07:39 PM
Its not just a money thing. There is ego involved here too. MLSE doesn't want the Leafs to be the second hottest ticket in town, and get beaten up by little bro. Toronto is all Leafs all the time. If there was a second team here these last few year that was winning it wouldn't be that way.

Competition is a good thing. It probably wouldn't take a decade of losing to change the way they do things if there was some pressure.

At the very least it couldn't hurt.

leafman101
08-29-2014, 07:45 PM
Its the same as wanting two good goalies to push each other to be the best they can be. Can't afford complacency in those situations.

Bleedsblue&white
08-29-2014, 07:50 PM
Imagine Stamkos turning down the Leafs to play with the Driftwood Drive-bys?

blacksheep
08-30-2014, 10:58 AM
Nothing would be better for the Leafs than a second team in their backyard.
Put it in London and give it to the Hunters.

Habsy
08-30-2014, 12:51 PM
True although I think we have more fans in Florida than the Leafs do. The Panthers deliberated moved our xmas game there from Dec 31 so that the Panthers wouldn't have to end the calendar year being outnumbered fan wise 14000 -2000

I've been to several Toronto games here and every Habs game and I can tell you that the arena is jammed with far more Habs fans when they play here. That is not to say Toronto doesn't get represented, just that the amount of Habs fans that file in is ridiculously high and clearly outnumber the Panther fans.

The other very big draw here, outside of Montreal and Toronto, are the NY Rangers. Huge representation. That's to be expected though because of the large number of transplanted New Yorkers in Broward and Palm Beach.