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Habspatrol
10-03-2014, 11:02 PM
Chris Neil is a total dirtbag.

That is all.

MyNameIsJonas
10-03-2014, 11:04 PM
Is he still a top 6 forward?

Corky27
10-03-2014, 11:06 PM
I'd take Neil on my team any day of the week.

Habspatrol
10-03-2014, 11:07 PM
I wouldn't.

JackBurton
10-03-2014, 11:10 PM
I still think Ottawa is crap. Montreal will be fine. Galchenyuk will score 60+ points this season and be one of the NHL's biggest "Breakout" players. Toronto will make the playoffs.

hockeylover
10-03-2014, 11:11 PM
Ottawa looks pretty crap to me on paper too. Those forwards...

JohnnyHolmes
10-04-2014, 12:47 AM
Yet beat the Leafs twice and the Habs once so far.

#crappysens

Pronger84
10-04-2014, 12:50 AM
Yet beat the Leafs twice and the Habs once so far.

#crappysens

#preseasonmeansnothing #littlebrosyndrome

JohnnyHolmes
10-04-2014, 12:50 AM
Of course it means nothing...when you lose.

Habspatrol
10-04-2014, 12:51 AM
Yet beat the Leafs twice and the Habs once so far.

#crappysens

Did you really just brag about pre-season wins?

Pronger84
10-04-2014, 12:53 AM
[QUOTE=JohnnyHolmes;2407241]Of course it means nothing...when you lose.[/QUOTE

Just like it means nothing if you win in the preseason either, none of the games count for points. I think you are truly missing the concept of what the preseason is actually all about but then I just remind myself you cheer for the Sens and that tells me all I need to know.

JohnnyHolmes
10-04-2014, 12:55 AM
Sorry, due to the Doppler effect I am having trouble hearing those behind me.

Pronger84
10-04-2014, 12:56 AM
Did you really just brag about pre-season wins?

He's a typical sens fan he will find anything to brag about, it's really quite laughable.

JohnnyHolmes
10-04-2014, 01:02 AM
Well, maybe when you do better than .500 and quoting posts, you'll understand.

It's funny that you talk about how shitty Ottawa is when they beat you twice, finished ahead of you in the standings last year, and of course mopped up the Habs in 5 not so long ago.

I think you're all in for a surprise this year.

Metalleaf
10-04-2014, 01:03 AM
Did you really just brag about pre-season wins?

Its the high of over paying Bobby Ryan and naming a 1970s porn star the Sens' captain for the second time in team history.

Pronger84
10-04-2014, 01:05 AM
Well, maybe when you do better than .500 and quoting posts, you'll understand.

It's funny that you talk about how shitty Ottawa is when they beat you twice, finished ahead of you in the standings last year, and of course mopped up the Habs in 5 not so long ago.

I think you're all in for a surprise this year.

1. Leafs did in fact finish above .500, so not sure what your point is?
2. Classic strawman argument to bring up my ability to quote, but not shocking because you know your losing the argument
3. I never said Ottawa was shitty, I said their fans have little bro syndrome going on and I stand by that
4. Time will tell.

Pronger84
10-04-2014, 01:06 AM
Its the high of over paying Bobby Ryan and naming a 1970s porn star the Sens' captain for the second time in team history.

LOL smackdown!

CTheBigPicture
10-04-2014, 01:10 AM
I really hope Ottawa surprises. Would hate to see them pick 1 or 2.

Metalleaf
10-04-2014, 01:12 AM
Ottawa will about the same as they were last season...the East sucks and they are by no means a bottom feeder in this conference.

Habspatrol
10-04-2014, 01:31 AM
and of course mopped up the Habs in 5 not so long ago.

I think you're all in for a surprise this year.

That was the 12-13 season. We're entering the 14-15 season. It was pretty long ago.

But hey, if you're that confident in your Sens I'm willing to bet that the Habs finish higher in the standings. I mean the Sens did beat part of the Habs line-up tonight after all.

JohnnyHolmes
10-04-2014, 01:38 AM
That was the 12-13 season. We're entering the 14-15 season. It was pretty long ago.

But hey, if you're that confident in your Sens I'm willing to bet that the Habs finish higher in the standings. I mean the Sens did beat part of the Habs line-up tonight after all.

Shhhh...no tears.

MindzEye
10-04-2014, 08:08 AM
Shhhh...no tears.

Bravo. It's rare that you see someone pussy out of a bet, while being condescending at the same time.

Your troll fu is strong.





For a bitch.

hockeylover
10-04-2014, 10:37 AM
The debate over the merits of having a goon is going on over on the Habs board. Couldn't be happier we appear to be moving away from the likes of Orr/McLaren.

JackBurton
10-04-2014, 11:06 AM
In 2014' goons don't matter.

zeke
10-04-2014, 11:09 AM
wasn't tinordi playing? he should be goon enough.

though he can't play hockey very well.

Habspatrol
10-04-2014, 12:29 PM
Yeah Tinordi should have gone after Neil next time he was on the ice. Not sure why he didn't.

Tinordi is alright for what he is. A 3rd pairing guy. I don't think his potential is any higher than maybe a #4.

Habspatrol
10-04-2014, 12:31 PM
And I agree that goons are useless these days. Your tough guy needs to be able to play hockey too.

MindzEye
10-04-2014, 01:08 PM
Yeah Tinordi should have gone after Neil next time he was on the ice. Not sure why he didn't.

Tinordi is alright for what he is. A 3rd pairing guy. I don't think his potential is any higher than maybe a #4.

That's "perfect" though. That's really all you need, or even want fighting. If you have a legit #5/6 defender or 3rd/4th line forward (preferably a winger) who can legitimately play a shift, and scrap...that's legit "team toughness".

Habspatrol
10-04-2014, 01:14 PM
That's "perfect" though. That's really all you need, or even want fighting. If you have a legit #5/6 defender or 3rd/4th line forward (preferably a winger) who can legitimately play a shift, and scrap...that's legit "team toughness".

For sure. I would have loved the Habs to sign Deryk Engelland but damn he got paid too much. But the guy is a legit heavyweight face smasher and he can play a solid #5/6 dman and also can play 4th line wing and not be a liability. Again though, the Flames paid too much.

If Tinordi han become a legit heavyweight contender he'll be a great addition to the Habs. From the fights I've seen him in he's not quite as tough as his size yet.

zeke
10-04-2014, 01:15 PM
imo tinordi's max upside is komisarek.

Habspatrol
10-04-2014, 01:22 PM
imo tinordi's max upside is komisarek.

Which Komiserek? The one that was a good #4 banger and crasher? Or the one that is completely useless now? Cause Tinordi is already better than that 2nd guy.

LeafGm
10-04-2014, 01:40 PM
Komisarek was never a good #4.

And if by "bang and crash", you mean "cross-check opponents repeatedly", then sure.

Habspatrol
10-04-2014, 01:43 PM
Komisarek was never a good #4.

And if by "bang and crash", you mean "cross-check opponents repeatedly", then sure.

When he played with the Habs he most definitely was a good #4 who was amongst the league leaders in hits for a couple years.

LeafGm
10-04-2014, 02:05 PM
When he played with the Habs he most definitely was a good #4 who was amongst the league leaders in hits for a couple years.
Whenever we played you guys, even during the "peak" of Komisarek's career, I always though he looked like a borderline bottom pairing defenseman with poor puck skills, low hockey IQ, a high panic threshold and serious mobility issues. That's why I was so upset the moment it was announced that we'd signed the guy.

Maybe, after burning a top-10 pick on him (and missing out on Mikko Koivu by one pick) you Hab fans just wanted him to be good so badly that you turned a blind eye to his flaws? There were a lot of Leaf fans with a similar affliction where Luke Schenn was concerned.

Habspatrol
10-04-2014, 02:15 PM
Whenever we played you guys, even during the "peak" of Komisarek's career, I always though he looked like a borderline bottom pairing defenseman with poor puck skills, low hockey IQ, a high panic threshold and serious mobility issues. That's why I was so upset the moment it was announced that we'd signed the guy.

Maybe, after burning a top-10 pick on him (and missing out on Mikko Koivu by one pick) you Hab fans just wanted him to be good so badly that you turned a blind eye to his flaws? There were a lot of Leaf fans with a similar affliction where Luke Schenn was concerned.

Or maybe your hatred of the Habs blinded you? If you haven't noticed, something like that would lead to Hab fans resenting and hating him more, not turning a blind eye.

There's a reason that the Leafs paid him... he was pretty alright while in Montreal.

zeke
10-04-2014, 02:18 PM
2yr paces:


C N.Kadri (24): 16:53, 25g/61p (126gm)
C K.Turris (25): 19:04, 23g/55p (130gm)
C D.Desharnais (28): 16:55, 17g/52p (127gm)

W P.Kessel (27): 20:21, 36g/83p (130gm)
W B.Ryan (27): 16:45, 24g/55p (116gm)
W M.Pacioretty (26): 17:45, 38g/69p (117gm)

W J.Lupul (31): 18:02, 32g/60p (85gm)
W C.MacArthur (29): 16:43, 22g/52p (119gm)
W P.Parenteau (31): 17:59, 26g/61p (103gm)


C T.Bozak (28): 20:40, 24g/61p (104gm)
C D.Legwand (34): 17:31, 16g/48p (131gm)
C T.Plekanec (32): 19:35, 22g/49p (128gm)

W J.VanRyk (25): 20:21, 31g/60p (128gm)
W M.Michalek (30): 17:43, 16g/41p (105gm)
W A.Galchenyuk (20): 13:30, 16g/42p (113gm)

W B.Kozun (24): ----
W A.Chiasson (24): 15:01, 18g/40p (86gm)
W B.Gallagher (22): 15:13, 22g/45p (125gm)


C M.Santorelli (29): 15:49, 12g/32p (83gm)
C M.Zibanejad (21): 14:03, 17g/39p (111gm)
C L.Eller (25): 15:33, 13g/37p (123gm)

W D.Winnik (29): 15:57, 8g/32p (124gm)
W C.Greening (28): 14:08, 9g/24p (123gm)
W R.Bourque (33): 14:50, 15g/26p (90gm)

W D.Clarkson (30): 16:13, 15g/27p (108gm)
W E.Condra (28): 12:14, 7g/19p (124gm)
W B.Prust (30): 13:10, 10g/25p (90gm)


C P.Holland (23): 11:27, 12g/21p (64gm)
C Z.Smith (26): 15:24, 11g/23p (130gm)
C M.Malhotra (35): 11:33, 7g/14p (78gm)

W D.Booth (30): 13:21, 11g/23p (78gm)
W M.Hoffman (25): 13:05, 9g/18p (28gm)
W D.Wiese (26): 8:52, 7g/17p (101gm)

W L.Komarov (27): 13:56, 8g/18p (42gm)
W C.Neil (35): 12:36, 8g/17p (124gm)
W T.Moen (30): 11:35, 3g/14p (110gm)


W J.Leivo (21): 9:52, 12g/23p (7gm)
W M.Stone (22): 13:41, 14g/29p (23gm)
W J.Sekac (22): ----

W M.Nylander (18): ----
W J.Pageau (22): 10:33, 9g/13p (37gm)
W M.Bournival (22): 10:19, 10g/19p (60gm)




D D.Phaneuf (29): 24:11, 11g/38p (128gm)
D E.Karlsson (24): 27:05, 21g/73p (99gm)
D P.Subban (24): 24:09, 14g/60p (124gm)

D S.Robidas (37): 21:19, 6g/22p (86gm)
D M.Methot (29): 21:56, 5g/23p (122gm)
D A.Markov (36): 24:49, 11g/46p (129gm)


D J.Gardiner (24): 21:00, 9g/31p (92gm)
D J.Cowen (23): 21:30, 8g/18p (75gm)
D T.Gilbert (30): 20:35, 4g/29p (116gm)

D C.Franson (27): 20:00, 6g/41p (124gm)
D C.Phillips (36): 19:58, 4g/20p (118gm)
D A.Emelin (28): 19:25, 5g/25p (97gm)


D R.Polak (28): 17:46, 3g/14p (120gm)
D E.Gryba (26): 18:31, 4g/16p (90gm)
D M.Weaver (36): 18:56, 2g/18p (99gm)

D M.Rielly (20): 17:37, 2g/30p (73gm)
D C.Ceci (21): 17:12, 5g/15p (49gm)
D N.Beaulieu (22): 13:47, 0g/14p (23gm)

D S.Percy (21): ---
D P.Wiercioch (24): 16:04, 8g/36p (95gm)
D J.Tinordi (22): 13:46, 0g/11p (30gm)




G J.Bernier (26): .922sv% (69gm)
G C.Anderson (33): .919sv% (77gm)
G C.Price (27): .919sv% (98gm)

G J.Reimer (26): .917sv% (69gm)
G R.Lehner (23): .920sv% (48gm)
G P.Budaj (32): .909sv% (37gm)

LeafGm
10-04-2014, 02:36 PM
Or maybe your hatred of the Habs blinded you? If you haven't noticed, something like that would lead to Hab fans resenting and hating him more, not turning a blind eye.

There's a reason that the Leafs paid him... he was pretty alright while in Montreal.
I think my evaluation of Hab players is actually pretty good, actually. I don't let my feelings about a team influence my evaluation of individual players. Take PK Subban, for example. For all the bashing of him that goes in on the media and among fans in general, you'll be hard pressed to find me saying a negative word about the guy. I love his personality, I love his talent and I've loved the way he's played the game since I first saw him in the WJC. That's why, during his contract negotiations, I said that you guys would have to pay top dollar for him, but should be more than happy to do so.

Then there's Carey Price. During the years when a lot of the mental midgets on the Hab board wanted him booted out of town, I defended the guy. Or Brendan Gallagher. I may hate the team he plays for, AND I think he's a little shit-stain, but I fully acknowledge he's a little shit-stain in the mold of Darcy Tucker that you'd love to have on your own team. Don't think I've ever had anything bad to say about Max Pacioretty either. The trend here, is that if a Hab player is actually good, I have no problem at all acknowledging it.

But Mike Komisarek? Sorry, but he didn't become an awful, borderline-at-best NHL defenseman the moment he pulled on a Leaf jersey. That's what he was with the Habs too, but because he was your big "Komisaurus" on a team full of midgets at the time, a lot of you Hab fans turned a blind eye to the calibre of player he really was.

Habspatrol
10-04-2014, 03:08 PM
I think my evaluation of Hab players is actually pretty good, actually. I don't let my feelings about a team influence my evaluation of individual players. Take PK Subban, for example. For all the bashing of him that goes in on the media and among fans in general, you'll be hard pressed to find me saying a negative word about the guy. I love his personality, I love his talent and I've loved the way he's played the game since I first saw him in the WJC. That's why, during his contract negotiations, I said that you guys would have to pay top dollar for him, but should be more than happy to do so.

Then there's Carey Price. During the years when a lot of the mental midgets on the Hab board wanted him booted out of town, I defended the guy. Or Brendan Gallagher. I may hate the team he plays for, AND I think he's a little shit-stain, but I fully acknowledge he's a little shit-stain in the mold of Darcy Tucker that you'd love to have on your own team. Don't think I've ever had anything bad to say about Max Pacioretty either. The trend here, is that if a Hab player is actually good, I have no problem at all acknowledging it.
And I don't blindly love all Hab players. I have plenty of honest, negative criticisms of Habs players past and present. I'm the same with Leaf players. I defended the Kessel trade long before most Leaf fans and still do to this day.


But Mike Komisarek? Sorry, but he didn't become an awful, borderline-at-best NHL defenseman the moment he pulled on a Leaf jersey. That's what he was with the Habs too, but because he was your big "Komisaurus" on a team full of midgets at the time, a lot of you Hab fans turned a blind eye to the calibre of player he really was.
He actually started to suck in his final year with the Habs but he was a solid #4 for a couple years before that. Look it's not like I'm saying he was elite by any means. But the guy was decent for a bit and was at the top of the league in hits. Hell in 06-07 he even had 19 points which put him 95th amongst dmen which offensively is even in that #4 position and he wasn't an offensive damn. He was a physical dman.

Definitely a solid #4.

UWHabs
10-04-2014, 03:20 PM
Komi was a solid D for a few years, then lost it. But Tinordi isn't really a Komi type D - his upside is essentially Hal Gill who can skate.

corksens
10-04-2014, 04:06 PM
Chris Neil is a total dirtbag.

That is all.Meh. Good on Subban for hanging in there.

corksens
10-04-2014, 04:08 PM
Its the high of over paying Bobby Ryan and naming a 1970s porn star the Sens' captain for the second time in team history.

Signature move has to be the Hot Karl.

JackBurton
10-04-2014, 08:36 PM
Nice to see the Sens getting g negative attention for the Ryan signing. The media was blowing them non-stop this time last year.

Wayward DP
10-04-2014, 09:10 PM
Heh, Johnny's back in mid-season form. Well done. Guess he's gotta enjoy it before the Sens are too hopelessly out of the playoff picture...

MindzEye
10-04-2014, 09:58 PM
Yeah, better get his fill now.

lecoqsportif
10-04-2014, 10:03 PM
Komi was a solid D for a few years, then lost it. But Tinordi isn't really a Komi type D - his upside is essentially Hal Gill who can skate.

He lost the Markov shield.

JackBurton
10-05-2014, 12:49 AM
He lost the Markov shield.

I never bought that. Did Markov make him lead the NHL in hits and blocked shots? Komi was very solid for a couple of seasons. It was injuries, not the loss of Markov that hurt his career.

JohnnyHolmes
10-05-2014, 07:50 AM
:lol

The Leafs are worse than the Sens...remember?

MindzEye
10-05-2014, 09:28 AM
:lol

The Leafs are worse than the Sens...remember?

Congrats, you got way more loser points than we did.

I'd have a hard time calling a team that won more games, and had a better goal differential "worse" though. I know you're just trolling and "facts" don't really matter though. I guess we'll just have to wait and see whose going to be better this season....the team that lost their #1 centre, or the team that made a shit ton of good depth additions.

Bleedsblue&white
10-05-2014, 09:45 AM
:lol

The Leafs are worse than the Sens...remember?

Were.
And barely at that, like comparing shit stains in your underwear.

This season though? You're the rented mule.

JohnnyHolmes
10-05-2014, 12:17 PM
Congrats, you got way more loser points than we did.

I'd have a hard time calling a team that won more games, and had a better goal differential "worse" though. I know you're just trolling and "facts" don't really matter though. I guess we'll just have to wait and see whose going to be better this season....the team that lost their #1 centre, or the team that made a shit ton of good depth additions.

My first reaction is that those are both the same team.

My second reaction is... ooooooohhhhh depth!

Habspatrol
10-05-2014, 12:25 PM
Congrats on the pre-season title JH.

Metalleaf
10-05-2014, 12:32 PM
I'm awarding Johnny with a Slammy for Preseason Beatdown.

LeafGm
10-05-2014, 12:51 PM
Sens fans may wish they had more forward depth not too far into the season. As is, their bottom six looks pretty ugly. I don't know who exactly will end up making up the Sens' bottom two lines, but I guess it'll likely be six of:

Chris Neil, Colin Greening, Mike Hoffman, Mark Stone, Zack Smith, Jean-Gabriel Pageau, Erik Condra, Zibanejad/Legwand.

Even counting whichever of Mika Zibanejad or David Legwand slots in as the Sens' #3 center, the Sens will be able to count themselves extremely fortunate if even two or three of the dregs making up their bottom-six forwards manages to crack the 20-point plateau.

And then that goes along with a top-six group of forwards that's lacking any kind of real first-line talent. Bobby Ryan leads the way with two 60+ point seasons under his belt...though they happened in Anaheim four and five years ago respectively. Following up is Michalek, who's also done it twice; once three years ago and another time eight years ago, though all he managed last year in a full 82-game schedule was 39 points. Then there's MacArthur, who hit the 60 point mark once four years ago in the miracle season for Kulemin-Grabbo-MacA. I guess Sens fans can also hope for continued improvement from Kyle Turris, but after that, that's about it.

zeke
10-05-2014, 12:59 PM
I don't think they look all that bad.

Karlsson heals a lot of ills, especially their lack of first line forward talent, and their goaltending should be solid.

Mac-Turris-Ryan isn't a great first line but it should be competent, if below average.

Mich-Legwand-Chiasson should be an average 2nd line.

Greening - Ziba - Stone/Lazar/Puempel/Pageau/Hoffman should be an average third line.

Neil - Smith - Condra is a quality fourth line.



Karlsson - Methot is an excellent first pair, because Karlsson is fricken awesome.

Ceci-Phillips should be a passable 2nd pair, though they'd fit better as a bottom pair.

Cowen/Gryba/Wiercioch should be fine as a bottom pair.


Anderson/Lehner should be at worst average goaltending, and potentially excellent.


I think they're probably on the outside looking in but I don't think they're horrible. If Walrus can get them to buy in defensively like they did 2yrs ago, then they have a chance to make the playoffs, though that was probably a fluke at the time.

Leafin'
10-05-2014, 01:34 PM
With our coaching staff i'm not overly confident in making the playoffs.

Though Bernier looks poised for a good year.

We can go either way this year. I can care less about the Habs or Sens.

JohnnyHolmes
10-05-2014, 01:44 PM
First of all I should commend Zeke for his attempt at looking unbiased. Very strong.

LeafGM... we have better options ready in the wings but contracts and egos are likely to disrupt that. So while our bottom 6 may chew, it's not the best bottom 6 that we could put out there.

Come on...you're a Leafs fan. Don't pretend you don't know how the politics of pro sports works.

I obviously can't prove this, but I suspect that a couple of habs fans had some "in your face" pie ready for me when it was 2-1, but as it ended 4-2...

Yeah it's just preseason, and doesn't mean squat, but it's still fun to beat your two closest opponents regardless of whether the games count or not.

Even though Ottawa finished higher in the standings than the Leafs last season, and mopped the floor with the Habs the playoffs the year before, they still get no rispeck.

Getting rid of Spezza was a huge move. Yeah he's talented, but at the same time, he's a loser. Or at least not a winner. He's not a leader. If he was he'd still be a Senator.

I just don't see any scenario where Ottawa is weaker than they were last year. And even then they finished ahead of the Leafs, loser point or not.

If you don't like it, try to change the rules. I'd be onboard. I hate the OTL and the shootout win.

hockeylover
10-05-2014, 01:48 PM
I don't think they look all that bad.

Karlsson heals a lot of ills, especially their lack of first line forward talent, and their goaltending should be solid.

Mac-Turris-Ryan isn't a great first line but it should be competent, if below average.

Mich-Legwand-Chiasson should be an average 2nd line.

Greening - Ziba - Stone/Lazar/Puempel/Pageau/Hoffman should be an average third line.

Neil - Smith - Condra is a quality fourth line.



Karlsson - Methot is an excellent first pair, because Karlsson is fricken awesome.

Ceci-Phillips should be a passable 2nd pair, though they'd fit better as a bottom pair.

Cowen/Gryba/Wiercioch should be fine as a bottom pair.


Anderson/Lehner should be at worst average goaltending, and potentially excellent.


I think they're probably on the outside looking in but I don't think they're horrible. If Walrus can get them to buy in defensively like they did 2yrs ago, then they have a chance to make the playoffs, though that was probably a fluke at the time.

The only things that you rated likely to being above average compared to other teams there are their 4th line and their top pairing on D though. Doesn't that actually sound pretty dismal?

zeke
10-05-2014, 01:51 PM
well, the goaltending could be well above average, too.

corksens
10-05-2014, 01:57 PM
Obviously Ottawa is banking on some significant development in Ceci, Cowen, Zibanejad and perhaps another young forward.

Those three players alone could make a world of difference if they take the next step.

zeke
10-05-2014, 02:21 PM
So Budaj waived, Jets pick him up.

Funny thing he's better than Pavelec.

Volcanologist
10-05-2014, 02:23 PM
Phillips is still expected to be in the sens top 4?

Habspatrol
10-05-2014, 03:16 PM
So Budaj waived, Jets pick him up.

Funny thing he's better than Pavelec.

Actually the Habs traded Budaj for Tangradi who will play in Hamilton.

MindzEye
10-05-2014, 07:29 PM
Last year, getting Spezza back from injury was a huge reason the Sens were going to be good....according to Johnny.

This year, losing Spezza is a huge reason the Sens are going to be good....according to Johnny.


#MidSeasonForm

JackBurton
10-05-2014, 07:31 PM
Ottawa is just not very good. To think of the rim jobs they were getting last year.

JohnnyHolmes
10-05-2014, 10:14 PM
Ottawa is just not very good. To think of the rim jobs they were getting last year.

I didn't get one...



Last year, getting Spezza back from injury was a huge reason the Sens were going to be good....according to Johnny.

This year, losing Spezza is a huge reason the Sens are going to be good....according to Johnny.


#MidSeasonForm

Not my fault that Spezza was a disappointment who was exposed the second he stepped out of Alfredsson's shadow.

I'm happy that he's gone.

Wayward DP
10-05-2014, 10:22 PM
^ the best troll

Deckie007
10-05-2014, 10:34 PM
I didn't get one...


Fairly certain you were a giver.

JohnnyHolmes
10-06-2014, 12:20 AM
Fairly certain you were a giver.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/48904175.jpg

JohnnyHolmes
10-06-2014, 12:54 AM
http://i.imgur.com/3bM170U.gif

Metalleaf
10-06-2014, 01:15 AM
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee152/Metalleaf24/Hockey/ForbiddenCity_MaoZedongPortrait_pixinnnet_zpsbc6e6 d0d.jpg

MindzEye
10-06-2014, 08:04 AM
#MidSeasonForm

vermettefan
10-06-2014, 08:14 AM
http://imgur.com/O1ZwZRf

vermettefan
10-06-2014, 08:44 AM
http://imgur.com/O1ZwZRf

Sorry guys, I tried and failed the internets this morning.

Habspatrol
10-06-2014, 08:50 AM
When you post a picture from a URL you have to uncheck the box that says "Retrieve remote file and reference locally."

corksens
10-06-2014, 10:04 AM
Wait, there were rimjobs going around last season?

I love rim jobs.

SundinsTooth
10-06-2014, 10:09 AM
taking or giving?

Habspatrol
10-06-2014, 10:17 AM
Wait, there were rimjobs going around last season?

I love rim jobs.

Well stock up on gum cause we're still accepting.

corksens
10-06-2014, 10:19 AM
Both.

SundinsTooth
10-06-2014, 10:22 AM
You are so cosmopolitan!

worm
10-06-2014, 10:56 AM
imo tinordi's max upside is komisarek.

Markov is too old for that.

MindzEye
10-06-2014, 11:34 AM
Phillips is still expected to be in the sens top 4?

Hopefully

corksens
10-06-2014, 12:58 PM
Ken Warren ‏@Citizenkwarren
Michalek-Zibanejad-Chiasson; MacArthur-Turris-Ryan;Smith-Legwand-Stone; Hoffman-Lazar-Neil.....Rumored Sens opening lines.

Our top-6 is below average and lacks too much game-breaking talent. But that is a solid 12 man unit that is defensively responsible and does have the ability to put up points by committee.

Zeke has it right though. Karlsson's dominant offensive ability is what really stirs the drink.

worm
10-06-2014, 12:59 PM
So Lazar did make the team?


Reminds me of the habs...need to have 3 lines producing because nobody will put up big numbers.

Metalleaf
10-06-2014, 01:01 PM
Looking forward to Ottawa's 1-4-1 defense.

JohnnyHolmes
10-06-2014, 11:02 PM
Rumored Sens opening lines.

Our top-6 is below average and lacks too much game-breaking talent. But that is a solid 12 man unit that is defensively responsible and does have the ability to put up points by committee.

Zeke has it right though. Karlsson's dominant offensive ability is what really stirs the drink.

I'll be surprised if they have the balls to scratch Greening and Condra. I'd also sit Neil, but you can't have everything I suppose.

JohnnyHolmes
10-07-2014, 07:14 AM
Rumored Sens opening lines.

Our top-6 is below average and lacks too much game-breaking talent. But that is a solid 12 man unit that is defensively responsible and does have the ability to put up points by committee.

Zeke has it right though. Karlsson's dominant offensive ability is what really stirs the drink.

I don't think we're going to be that bad.

Michalek (15) - Zibanejad (20) - Chiasson (15) = 50
MacArthur (25) - Turris (25) - Ryan (35) = 85
Smith (12) - Legwand (15) - Stone (23) = 50
Hoffman (16) - Lazar (12) - Neil (9) = 37

Condra (6)
Greening (7) big year for him.... = 13

235 total from the forwards...probably too high, but I think those are all reasonably attainable numbers.

corksens
10-07-2014, 08:59 AM
Michalek (22) - Zibanejad (20) - Chiasson (15) = 57
MacArthur (18) - Turris (25) - Ryan (30) = 73
Smith (12) - Legwand (16) - Stone (18) = 46
Hoffman (12) - Lazar (12) - Neil (9) = 33

209.

MindzEye
10-07-2014, 10:11 AM
Yeah...I'll go ahead and take the under on both. Points to Corky for being realistic though. Johnny though is expecting almost as many goals out of Stone and 2 4th liners as the Sens received from their 7.25 million dollar man, and 2/3rds of the 1st line he's listed, provided last season.

MyNameIsJonas
10-07-2014, 10:12 AM
Who is Stone?

leafman101
10-07-2014, 10:17 AM
Yikes, that is one ugly group of forwards.

Habspatrol
10-07-2014, 10:22 AM
Yeah Cork's numbers look pretty realistic.

JH's numbers are all realistic on their own... but he's basically calling for career highs for almost every player.

JohnnyHolmes
10-07-2014, 10:25 AM
Yeah...I'll go ahead and take the under on both. Points to Corky for being realistic though. Johnny though is expecting almost as many goals out of Stone and 2 4th liners as the Sens received from their 7.25 million dollar man, and 2/3rds of the 1st line he's listed, provided last season.

Cork also didn't count Greening or Condra, who are sure to get playing time.

Stone is a natural goal scorer, who is going to get a lot of ice time. I don't think 23 goals is an unrealistic number for him. Spezza is gone, so someone is going to take his spot on the #1 PP. That someone is most likely going to be Turris. Along with MacArthur and Ryan in all likelyhood.

Is it a stretch to suggest that Turris will score 25 this year in his expanded role when he got 26 last year?

Is it a stretch to suggest that MacArthur will score 25 this year in his expanded role when he got 24 last year?

Is it a stretch to suggest that Ryan will hit 35 when he's already done it, and has four 30+ goal seasons under his belt already?

Probably not.

Our numbers aren't even that different. I think he went high on Michalek, and low on MacArthur, plus as stated he did leave out two players I accounted for.

Provided that guys stay healthy, none of my estimates were outlandish. Some of them are pretty conservative in my opinion.

corksens
10-07-2014, 10:29 AM
Alot of young faces on that roster but guys who can score.

Hoffman tore up the AHL last year, Stone is a natural scorer, Legwand still has game, ect.

The usual suspects like Greening, Neil and Smith will pot a few, but aren't there to score.

The real question mark is how that top line can do while drawing top pairings...and then if Michalek and Chaisson can have chemistry.

corksens
10-07-2014, 10:30 AM
And I won't lie - I'm really not worried about the forwards. I think there is alot of potential

I'm worried about Cowen, Phillips and Gryba getting more minutes than they can handle.

Habspatrol
10-07-2014, 10:36 AM
Cork also didn't count Greening or Condra, who are sure to get playing time.

Stone is a natural goal scorer, who is going to get a lot of ice time. I don't think 23 goals is an unrealistic number for him. Spezza is gone, so someone is going to take his spot on the #1 PP. That someone is most likely going to be Turris. Along with MacArthur and Ryan in all likelyhood.

Is it a stretch to suggest that Turris will score 25 this year in his expanded role when he got 26 last year?

Is it a stretch to suggest that MacArthur will score 25 this year in his expanded role when he got 24 last year?

Is it a stretch to suggest that Ryan will hit 35 when he's already done it, and has four 30+ goal seasons under his belt already?

Probably not.

Our numbers aren't even that different. I think he went high on Michalek, and low on MacArthur, plus as stated he did leave out two players I accounted for.

Provided that guys stay healthy, none of my estimates were outlandish. Some of them are pretty conservative in my opinion.

I'm guilty of this with the Habs every year. I always convince myself that every player can score at their career high or just a little better. If I did my list for the Habs this year it would be the same thing. I'd have Pacioretty at 40, Plekanec at 30, Galchenyuk at 30, Gallagher at 25 and so on.

worm
10-07-2014, 10:44 AM
I'm guilty of this with the Habs every year. I always convince myself that every player can score at their career high or just a little better. If I did my list for the Habs this year it would be the same thing. I'd have Pacioretty at 40, Plekanec at 30, Galchenyuk at 30, Gallagher at 25 and so on.

Ya. The problem isnt individually.....it is as a whole. Some will go up...some will stay the same...some will go down....some will get hurt....etc

JohnnyHolmes
10-07-2014, 10:47 AM
And I won't lie - I'm really not worried about the forwards. I think there is alot of potential

I'm worried about Cowen, Phillips and Gryba getting more minutes than they can handle.

Valid concern. Phillips should be retired, Gryba was never more than a depth guy and Cowen...is Cowen.

LeafGm
10-07-2014, 11:08 AM
Is it a stretch to suggest that Turris will score 25 this year in his expanded role when he got 26 last year?

Is it a stretch to suggest that MacArthur will score 25 this year in his expanded role when he got 24 last year?

Is it a stretch to suggest that Ryan will hit 35 when he's already done it, and has four 30+ goal seasons under his belt already?

Probably not.
Each taken on their own, none of those predictions are a stretch. But if you think all of them will come true in the same year, you're going to have a bad time. It's pretty rare that every top-6 forward on a team has a career year in the same season.

JohnnyHolmes
10-07-2014, 11:08 AM
The real question mark is how that top line can do while drawing top pairings...and then if Michalek and Chaisson can have chemistry.

You could argue that Turris' line already had that assignment last year.

Spezza's line was getting fed constantly. I know everyone downplays a guy's contributions when he's traded away, but I really believe that Ottawa is going to be better off without Spezza.

He's a lazy hockey player. I know people still argue about this. Most of Spezza's fanboys and haters will never change their tunes, but I was swayed from fanboy to hater. He really put me off last season. One game early where he just let Getzlaf walk by him and the puck ended up in our net soon after was one of the big turning points for me. Always curling away, never finishing his checks. The weak stick wave at a guy blowing past him. The giveaways. The blind passes. The toe drags.

He was a freaking -26. People can and do argue that plus/minus is meaningless, but for your supposed best player and leader to be that far in to the minus, and his supposed understudy (Turris) is just about that high on the plus side...there's a problem.

He was everything that was wrong with the team. Soft and lazy. The guy is a loser. His teams have never won at any level.

It's just a shame to see what he became here. I thought when he was working out with Roberts that he was finally getting serious about his career. If a guy with that much talent had the work ethic to go along with it, he could have been the player we all thought he could be.

There is a reason that Team Canada never even considers him. They didn't even invite him to the WHC a few years back when the Sens missed the playoffs. How sad is that?

Anyway sorry for the mini Spezza rant, but I feel better now.

LeafGm
10-07-2014, 11:11 AM
Well, after that Spezza rant, it's ever so clear why you fantasized so frequently last year about him getting traded to Toronto for a massive return.

JohnnyHolmes
10-07-2014, 11:26 AM
Well, after that Spezza rant, it's ever so clear why you fantasized so frequently last year about him getting traded to Toronto for a massive return.

Kadri, Gardiner and a pick isn't a massive return.

MindzEye
10-07-2014, 11:29 AM
Stone is a natural goal scorer, who is going to get a lot of ice time. I don't think 23 goals is an unrealistic number for him.

You don't think 23 goals is unrealistic for a guy who had a 82 game pace of 27 goals in the AHL over the past 2 seasons? While getting 3rd line minutes and at best, 2nd unit PP time?



Is it a stretch to suggest that Turris will score 25 this year in his expanded role when he got 26 last year?

No


Is it a stretch to suggest that MacArthur will score 25 this year in his expanded role when he got 24 last year?

Yes, it is a stretch to expect him to hit a career best two seasons in a row, with last season including his highest SH% of his career.


Is it a stretch to suggest that Ryan will hit 35 when he's already done it, and has four 30+ goal seasons under his belt already?

When he did it playing with Getzky & Perry, and has scored at a 24 goal pace over his last 2 seasons....yes, yes it is.


Probably not.

You don't think it's a stretch to predict that the Sens forwards will score more goals by themselves (235), than the entire team scored last season (236)...after losing Jason Spezza and not replacing him with anyone of consequence?


Our numbers aren't even that different. I think he went high on Michalek, and low on MacArthur, plus as stated he did leave out two players I accounted for.

His numbers, plus what would be expected out of your blue line, are almost exactly what the Sens did last season, which I think is a little optimistic given the loss of your #1 centre...but realistic. You're expecting the Sens the be somewhere in the 3.2 GPG range (235 from forwards + 30 from defenders)....which would have been 1st in the league last season.

So basically you're calling this Senators group a runaway offensive freight train...and if that's how you feel, cool, you do you bruh....but all I want to know is how much money can I put on the under?


Provided that guys stay healthy, none of my estimates were outlandish. Some of them are pretty conservative in my opinion.

Your estimates are outlandish

http://static.fjcdn.com/gifs/Deal_368aed_1390499.gif

zeke
10-07-2014, 11:34 AM
Kadri, Gardiner and a pick isn't a massive return.

true.

kadri has outscored all of your forwards in his first two years in the league, but admittedly that's not saying much.

zeke
10-07-2014, 11:38 AM
mac 20 - turris 25 - ryan 30
mitch 15 - ziba 15 - chiasson 15
smith 10 - legwand 15 - stone 15
hoffman 15 - lazar 10 - neil 5

190

MindzEye
10-07-2014, 11:46 AM
Kadri, Gardiner and a pick isn't a massive return.

It's a lot bigger than you 1) thought & 2) got

MindzEye
10-07-2014, 11:49 AM
mac 20 - turris 25 - ryan 30
mitch 15 - ziba 15 - chiasson 15
smith 10 - legwand 15 - stone 15
hoffman 15 - lazar 10 - neil 5

190

#Realism

corksens
10-07-2014, 12:00 PM
I don't know if I would call that realism.

Expecting a player like Zibanejad, who will one year older and eating some of Spezza's minutes, to score fewer goals isn't realism.

Predicting Michalek to score the fewest goals since joining the league isn't realism.

MindzEye
10-07-2014, 12:08 PM
I don't know if I would call that realism.

Expecting a player like Zibanejad, who will one year older and eating some of Spezza's minutes, to score fewer goals isn't realism.

Predicting Michalek to score the fewest goals since joining the league isn't realism.


Predicting a forward group that scored 183 goals last season....and lost their leading scorer in the off season, to score 190 goals this season, is pretty ****ing generous. If you want to call it unrealistic, have at it. You're predicting that they've gained 26 goals by getting rid of their #1 centre and Johnny is hilariously predicting an additional 52 goals.

Zeke is the only one of the 3 that was even remotely close to last year's totals...

MyNameIsJonas
10-07-2014, 12:09 PM
Isnt Michalek due for a torn knee?

corksens
10-07-2014, 12:15 PM
Predicting a forward group that scored 183 goals last season....and lost their leading scorer in the off season, to score 190 goals this season, is pretty ****ing generous. If you want to call it unrealistic, have at it. You're predicting that they've gained 26 goals by getting rid of their #1 centre and Johnny is hilariously predicting an additional 52 goals.

Zeke is the only one of the 3 that was even remotely close to last year's totals...If you want to look at everything in total numbers, go at it. I like to think we have the ability to break things down into 12 pretty basic numbers.

zeke
10-07-2014, 12:16 PM
2yr Paces:

Mac 22 - Turris 23 - Ryan 24
Mitch 16 - Ziba 17 - Chiasson 18
smith 11 - legwand 16 - stone 14
hoffman 9 - lazar? - neil 8

178 + lazar

zeke
10-07-2014, 12:21 PM
leafs 2yr:

jvr 32 - bozak 24 - kessel 36
lupul 32 - kadri 25 - clarkson 15
komo 8 - santo 12 - frattin 11
winnik 8 - holland 12 - booth 11

226

JohnnyHolmes
10-07-2014, 12:23 PM
Yes, it is a stretch to expect him to hit a career best two seasons in a row, with last season including his highest SH% of his career.

MacArthur has hit 20+ goals in 3 of his last 4 seasons. The 1 season he missed it also happens to have been the lockout season, and coincidentally when Carlyle put him in the doghouse for no apparent reason. Thanks for that, by the way. His career best was not last season, it was his first season as a Leaf.

He'll get more icetime, more PP time, and that line has good chemistry. I expect MacArthur will match last season's production at the very least, and could very easily eclipse it.


When he did it playing with Getzky & Perry, and has scored at a 24 goal pace over his last 2 seasons....yes, yes it is.

1) So?
2) Lockout shortened season.
3) He was injured most of the season. Now he isn't.



You don't think it's a stretch to predict that the Sens forwards will score more goals by themselves (235), than the entire team scored last season (236)...after losing Jason Spezza and not replacing him with anyone of consequence?

Spezza was so horrible defensively it doesn't matter. He scored 14 goals at even strength last year. Too bad the opposition scored 40 while he did that.


His numbers, plus what would be expected out of your blue line, are almost exactly what the Sens did last season, which I think is a little optimistic given the loss of your #1 centre...but realistic. You're expecting the Sens the be somewhere in the 3.2 GPG range (235 from forwards + 30 from defenders)....which would have been 1st in the league last season.

Last season was a disaster. There is no way that the team can suck that hard in every area again.


So basically you're calling this Senators group a runaway offensive freight train...and if that's how you feel, cool, you do you bruh....but all I want to know is how much money can I put on the under?

You'd think I had predicted that 12 guys were all going to score 30 goals or something.


Your estimates are outlandish

No they aren't.

Recognize that.
http://www.angelfire.com/wrestling3/thelivinglegend/dlo.jpg

worm
10-07-2014, 12:23 PM
habs please

zeke
10-07-2014, 12:24 PM
habs

patch 38 - dd 17 - pap 26
Gally 22 - plek 22 - galy 16
bourque 15 - eller 13 - prust 10
moen 3 - malhotra 7 - weise 7

196

corksens
10-07-2014, 12:26 PM
Other than maybe Kadri and Holland, I would suggest that Leafs roster is likely maxed out on goal potential. Not to mention Lupul's largely inflated numbers by a small burst in 2012-2013.

MyNameIsJonas
10-07-2014, 12:27 PM
Max scores 47 this year.

MyNameIsJonas
10-07-2014, 12:27 PM
Other than maybe Kadri and Holland, I would suggest that Leafs roster is likely maxed out on goal potential. Not to mention Lupul's largely inflated numbers by a small burst in 2012-2013.

i think JVR could have another level, and the kid D.

corksens
10-07-2014, 12:28 PM
I'd maybe give Pac 40 - but no way he scores near 50 on that Habs team. Just not a dominant enough team.

zeke
10-07-2014, 12:28 PM
leafs 2yr:

jvr 32 - bozak 24 - kessel 36
lupul 32 - kadri 25 - clarkson 15
komo 8 - santo 12 - frattin 11
winnik 8 - holland 12 - booth 11

226


note here that isn't actually much of an upgrade over what the leafs got from their top six last year.

but that's about double the production from the bottom six.

MindzEye
10-07-2014, 12:29 PM
If you want to look at everything in total numbers, go at it. I like to think we have the ability to break things down into 12 pretty basic numbers.

What you have is the ability to make individual over estimations based on wishful thinking, that equals an unrealistic number when added together as a unit.

I mean...if we played the same game with Toronto


Lupul(30) Bozak (25) Kessel (35)
JVR (30) Kadri (25) Kozun (15)
Winnk (8) Santorelli (15) Booth (15)
Komarov (8) Holland (10) Clarkson (15)


None of those individual totals are unrealistic. Even Kozun, is a speedy, natural goal scorer who has a strong goal scoring track record in the AHL (damn close to Stone's pace)

There is a "realistic" view of the individuals on the Leafs. Every total there is a realistic number based off of recent season paces. None of those numbers, when viewed individually, is out of line with the production those players have shown capable of. That would be a total of 232 goals, and would put the Leafs, with the expected offensive production of their blueline (Phaneuf 12, Gardiner 12, Rielly 5, Franson 5, Robidas 5, Polak 5) would have the Leafs likely leading the league in offence

See how fun this game is when the definition of "realistic" is "absolutely ****ing everything going right"?

corksens
10-07-2014, 12:30 PM
What you have is the ability to make individual over estimations based on wishful thinking, that equals an unrealistic number when added together as a unit.Kindly point these out...

MindzEye
10-07-2014, 12:34 PM
No they aren't.

Recognize that.



Poor johnny. Fails at the internet like he fails at statistical analysis. Remember when you clowns were making fun of me last year for correcting you all on your "realistic" goaltending predictions?

Yeah...same shit is about the occur this season.

I'm more than willing to get the pre season bet train rolling here if you chimps are looking to back up this massive load of bullshit you're peddling.

zeke
10-07-2014, 12:35 PM
Other than maybe Kadri and Holland, I would suggest that Leafs roster is likely maxed out on goal potential. Not to mention Lupul's largely inflated numbers by a small burst in 2012-2013.

loops scored at a 26gl pace last year.

MindzEye
10-07-2014, 12:37 PM
Kindly point these out...

Poor corky.


When viewed at in isolation, none of them look outlandish. You clearly missed the entire ****ing point I've very clearly laid out here. This shit doesn't exist in a vacuum. If Stone is getting PP time to pot his ~20 that you guys have him in at, someone else won't be getting it. Injuries, poor performances, etc.

These things happen every season. You tell me where you want to set the over/under number at, and how much money you want to donate to the condo I'm buying in the spring, and you're on.

Deal?

corksens
10-07-2014, 12:38 PM
You're point is shit. I've missed nothing.

It's just you being lazy.

corksens
10-07-2014, 12:39 PM
loops scored at a 26gl pace last year.Which is about 20% lower than what his 2-year split would suggest. I would call that "largely". But it's really not that important.

hockeylover
10-07-2014, 12:40 PM
Other than maybe Kadri and Holland, I would suggest that Leafs roster is likely maxed out on goal potential. Not to mention Lupul's largely inflated numbers by a small burst in 2012-2013.

Is this like last season when you told us JVR due for a regression over and over?

worm
10-07-2014, 12:52 PM
Max scores 47 this year.

That would be amazing. But I think he will get around 35 this year.

MindzEye
10-07-2014, 12:53 PM
You're point is shit. I've missed nothing.

It's just you being lazy.

It's not lazy at all, it's accurate.

It's entirely unrealistic to expect an entire forward group to perform at their best or near best over an entire season. I don't expect the Leafs forward group to score 232 goals any more than I expect the Senators forward group to score 209.

If my point is shit, then it should be easy enough to take my money then, no?

worm
10-07-2014, 12:54 PM
http://www.phawker.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/gamblor2.jpg

zeke
10-07-2014, 01:09 PM
wagers have ruined the board.

i blame mindz.

Habspatrol
10-07-2014, 01:14 PM
Max scores 47 this year.

I doubt it but he definitely has the potential. He scored at a 44 goal rate last season and that's with only 2 goals in his first 12 games. But hey, those games count too.

Habspatrol
10-07-2014, 01:15 PM
I'd maybe give Pac 40 - but no way he scores near 50 on that Habs team. Just not a dominant enough team.

I agree with 40ish but not because he's on the Habs and that they're not dominant enough. More so that I just think last year is about the best I really expect out of Max.

MindzEye
10-07-2014, 01:26 PM
wagers have ruined the board.

i blame mindz.

People pulling numbers out of their ass to support silly arguments have ruined the board.

I blame Zeke.

zeke
10-07-2014, 01:37 PM
silly endless arguments are what this board was built on.

zeke
10-07-2014, 01:41 PM
i say we ban all wagers.

who is with me?

MindzEye
10-07-2014, 01:43 PM
and those same silly arguments have spawned tons of gambling over the years as well....we have created 2 full blown gambling leagues based off of the silly arguments. In fact, those leagues and their quality in comparison to the vast majority of fantasy sports is one of the best things we've ever done around here.

So yeah, not sure what you're on about.

MindzEye
10-07-2014, 01:44 PM
I say Zeke gets a job so he can join in on the wagers.

leafman101
10-07-2014, 01:46 PM
Yeah, I'm not a fan of the bets either. At the end of the day its about being right and shoving the other persons face in it. Making them pay me too just makes me feel bad.

Plus I always forget about them. Pretty sure I had a bet with ME that Ubaldo sucks and would have been a bad signing. Don't remember the terms, but they don't even matter. He sucked and would have been a bad signing.

Volcanologist
10-07-2014, 01:51 PM
I say Zeke gets a job so he can join in on the wagers.

you of course mean so he can actually pay when he loses...

zeke
10-07-2014, 01:51 PM
I say Zeke gets a job so he can join in on the wagers.

don't you owe me money?

MindzEye
10-07-2014, 01:54 PM
Yeah, I'm not a fan of the bets either. At the end of the day its about being right and shoving the other persons face in it. Making them pay me too just makes me feel bad.

Plus I always forget about them. Pretty sure I had a bet with ME that Ubaldo sucks and would have been a bad signing. Don't remember the terms, but they don't even matter. He sucked and would have been a bad signing.

Find the bet and I'll happily (well...not ****ing happily...) live up to my end of it. I don't give a **** about the money involved in any bet, it's about giving us a reason to keep track of the argument (let's be real, most of our best arguments around here require the season to go by before we know who was right. If I'm going to spend a few hours of my time arguing over the ****ing senators and their ****ing forward scoring output for the 14-15 season, I'd like to revisit the issue later when the other side of the argument turns out wrong for exactly why I said they would be.

MindzEye
10-07-2014, 01:56 PM
don't you owe me money?

If I do, it's because you've never sent me the details necessary for me to pay it. AKA, pulling a "Habsy".

I don't remember why I would, but you're more than welcome to dig it up if I do.

LeafGm
10-07-2014, 01:56 PM
I never have, and likely never will take part in any of the bets that go on around here.

I don't see the problem with other people doing it though, if they want to.

MindzEye
10-07-2014, 01:58 PM
you of course mean so he can actually pay when he loses...

Yeah, that too. Although I would accept drywall, brick laying or any of the other "Italian Arts" performed in lieu of payment.

Metalleaf
10-07-2014, 01:59 PM
"Cement Shoeing"?

zeke
10-07-2014, 01:59 PM
meh, it just ends arguments needlessly. its basically ending every argument and saying "we'll see". boring. board killer.

mindz - pretty sure you bet me that stroman/mcgowan/nolin wouldn't earn 1war this year. iirc.

MindzEye
10-07-2014, 02:02 PM
meh, it just ends arguments needlessly. its basically ending every argument and saying "we'll see". boring. board killer.

The bet usually only comes out after both sides have fleshed out their argument and no middle ground has been found. I look at it as an adaptation of the NDT quote "If an argument lasts longer than 5 minutes, both sides lost". I have no desire to argue the same ****ing thing over and over again until one of us gets tired of typing anymore. I have shit to do.


mindz - pretty sure you bet me that stroman/mcgowan/nolin wouldn't earn 1war this year. iirc.

I did, dig it up, provide me with details and I'll honour the bet.

corksens
10-07-2014, 02:06 PM
Mindz getting called out for the bully he is. Love it.

MindzEye
10-07-2014, 02:09 PM
Mindz getting called out for the bully he is. Love it.

Meh, I admit it.

Sorry that I try to make you back up your silly arguments Corky, I'll take some sensitivity training or something.

zeke
10-07-2014, 02:09 PM
The bet usually only comes out after both sides have fleshed out their argument and no middle ground has been found. I look at it as an adaptation of the NDT quote "If an argument lasts longer than 5 minutes, both sides lost". I have no desire to argue the same ****ing thing over and over again until one of us gets tired of typing anymore. I have shit to do.

board killer.




I did, dig it up, provide me with details and I'll honour the bet.

meh, loser should do the digging.

corksens
10-07-2014, 02:10 PM
Meh, I admit it.

Sorry that I try to make you back up your silly arguments Corky, I'll take some sensitivity training or something.My argument doesn't need financial backing. The words speak for themselves. I'm normally not one to gamble at the best of times - let alone on a hockey message board.

JohnnyHolmes
10-07-2014, 02:34 PM
Poor corky.


When viewed at in isolation, none of them look outlandish. You clearly missed the entire ****ing point I've very clearly laid out here. This shit doesn't exist in a vacuum. If Stone is getting PP time to pot his ~20 that you guys have him in at, someone else won't be getting it. Injuries, poor performances, etc.

These things happen every season. You tell me where you want to set the over/under number at, and how much money you want to donate to the condo I'm buying in the spring, and you're on.

Deal?

You mean like...the PP time Spezza won't get? Or do you mean another hole?

Your other point is just weak. You put Lupul in at 30 when he hasn't hit 30 since junior. What's more likely? That MacArthur will have 1 goal more than he had last year with greater opportunities, or that Joffrey Lupul, who can't stay healthy, is going to mark his first 30 goal season ever?

Or maybe this will be the year Kessel hits 40!

Come on ME, you're better than this. Dig down and bring some effort.

Montana
10-07-2014, 03:57 PM
I have no desire to argue the same ****ing thing over and over again until one of us gets tired of typing anymore.


heh.

worm
10-07-2014, 04:07 PM
The fact that JH expects the forwards to score the same total the team got last year is what I cant get around.

Corks doesnt seem terrible. Within the realm of reason.

worm
10-07-2014, 04:11 PM
BTW you guys should start the GDT ... or I will.

LeafGm
10-07-2014, 04:15 PM
BTW you guys should start the GDT ... or I will.
What, you savages on the Habs board don't even wait until the actual game day to start the game-day thread?

Weirdos.

worm
10-07-2014, 04:32 PM
Sometimes we have pre-GDTs.

I am just excited for the season to start.

MindzEye
10-07-2014, 05:38 PM
Your other point is just weak. You put Lupul in at 30 when he hasn't hit 30 since junior.



What's more likely? That MacArthur will have 1 goal more than he had last year with greater opportunities, or that Joffrey Lupul, who can't stay healthy, is going to mark his first 30 goal season ever?

Actually...both are about as likely. MacArthur required the highest shooting % of his career to get to 24. Lupul has played at a 31 goal pace as a member of the Leafs. MacArthur is about as likely to improve on his career best this season, as Lupul is to stay healthy enough to pot 30.



Or maybe this will be the year Kessel hits 40!

Maybe. Of course, I didn't include that in my bit of silliness up there.


Come on ME, you're better than this. Dig down and bring some effort.

Silly troll


http://i.imgur.com/akUOxRL.gif

MindzEye
10-07-2014, 05:39 PM
The fact that JH expects the forwards to score the same total the team got last year is what I cant get around.

Corks doesnt seem terrible. Within the realm of reason.

Yep. Optimistic, but reasonable. Zeke, like I said, is easily the closest of the 3 to the likely reality.

worm
10-07-2014, 05:54 PM
wanna bet?




because i dont

zeke
10-07-2014, 09:21 PM
37 (1): Robidas
36 (0): ---
35 (0): ---
34 (0): ---
33 (0): ---
32 (0): ---
31 (1): Lupul
30 (2): Clarkson, Booth
29 (3): Phaneuf, Santorelli, Winnik
28 (2): Bozak, Polak
27 (3): Kessel, Franson, Komarov
26 (3): Bernier, Reimer, Frattin
25 (1): VanRiemsdyk
24 (3): Kadri, Gardiner, Kozun*
23 (2): Holland, Ashton
22 (0): ---
21 (2): Percy, Leivo*
20 (1): Rielly
19 (0): ---


36 (2): Markov, Weaver
35 (0): ---
34 (1): Malhotra
33 (1): Bourque
32 (2): Plekanec, Moen
31 (2): Parenteau, Gilbert
30 (1): Prust
29 (0): ---
28 (2): Desharnais, Emelin
27 (1): Price
26 (2): Pacioretty, Weise
25 (3): Subban, Eller, Tokarski
24 (0): ---
23 (0): ---
22 (5): Gallagher, Sekac, Beaulieu, Tinordi, Bournival
21 (0):
20 (1): Galchenyuk
19 (0): ---



35 (2): Philips, Neil
34 (1): Legwand
33 (1): Anderson
32 (0): ---
31 (0): ---
30 (1): Michalek
29 (2): MacArthur, Methot
28 (2): Greening, Condra
27 (1): Ryan
26 (2): Smith, Gryba
25 (3): Turris, Hoffman, Borowiecki*
24 (3): Karlsson, Chiasson, Wiercioch
23 (2): Lehner, Cowen
22 (1): Stone
21 (2): Zibanejad, Ceci
20 (0): ---
19 (1): Lazar

SENSible
10-08-2014, 07:11 AM
Predicting a forward group that scored 183 goals last season....and lost their leading scorer in the off season, to score 190 goals this season, is pretty ****ing generous. If you want to call it unrealistic, have at it. You're predicting that they've gained 26 goals by getting rid of their #1 centre and Johnny is hilariously predicting an additional 52 goals.

Zeke is the only one of the 3 that was even remotely close to last year's totals...

Last years totals came in a year in which most of the team under performed.

JohnnyHolmes
10-08-2014, 07:20 AM
Last years totals came in a year in which most of the team under performed.

And still finished ahead of the Leafs.

This place is too funny sometimes.

Guessing that guys will get 15 goals is outlandish.

MindzEye
10-08-2014, 09:10 AM
Last years totals came in a year in which most of the team under performed.

Oh, this should be good.



Who exactly under performed?

JohnnyHolmes
10-08-2014, 09:39 AM
Oh, this should be good.



Who exactly under performed?

Spezza, Michalek, Greening, Ryan due to injury, Cowen, Phillips, Anderson, Condra. Yeah that was hard.

MyNameIsJonas
10-08-2014, 09:40 AM
Spezza, Michalek, Greening, Ryan due to injury, Cowen, Phillips, Anderson, Condra. Yeah that was hard.

some of those guys should not be NHLers, either ever or anymore.

JohnnyHolmes
10-08-2014, 09:47 AM
I'm aware.

LeafGm
10-08-2014, 09:59 AM
Michalek was injured? He played all 82 games last year.

JohnnyHolmes
10-08-2014, 10:25 AM
Michalek was injured? He played all 82 games last year.

Nobody said Michalek was imjured. Just that he sucked.

MindzEye
10-08-2014, 01:03 PM
Spezza, Michalek, Greening, Ryan due to injury, Cowen, Phillips, Anderson, Condra. Yeah that was hard.


Spezza's .88ppg was in line with what he had done in 3 of the previous 4 full seasons (ignoring his 5 game season of course)

Michalek's .48ppg was in line with what he's done in 3 of 4 previous seasons in Ottawa

Ryan's .69ppg was in line with his previous 2 seasons

Anderson's .913 was....again....in line with the vast majority of his career performance level

Phillips is old and busted, Greening and Condra were never good to begin with.




The problem appears to be your expectations. They performed almost exactly like their track record suggests they should have.

Enjoy this season buddy.

TheCountofMonteCristo
10-08-2014, 02:07 PM
habs

patch 38 - dd 17 - pap 26
Gally 22 - plek 22 - galy 16
bourque 15 - eller 13 - prust 10
moen 3 - malhotra 7 - weise 7

196

I would be surprised if the Leaf forwards outscore our forwards by 30 goals but tout est possible I guess.

zeke
10-08-2014, 02:48 PM
well, they scored about the same last year, and i think the habs lost a bunch if scoring depth while the leafs added a bunch of scoring depth.

but yeah, a thirty goal gap is unlikely.

worm
10-08-2014, 03:09 PM
well, they scored about the same last year, and i think the habs lost a bunch if scoring depth while the leafs added a bunch of scoring depth.

but yeah, a thirty goal gap is unlikely.

I am curious how much we will miss Gionta.

LeafOfFaith
10-08-2014, 03:14 PM
I really don't see myself as being biased on this, but I just can't see how the experts are loving the Habs so hard and calling us a bubble team.

I see the Habs as the bubble team, and us having a full 82 games like the first 70 we had last year.

worm
10-08-2014, 03:18 PM
I really don't see myself as being biased on this, but I just can't see how the experts are loving the Habs so hard and calling us a bubble team.

I see the Habs as the bubble team, and us having a full 82 games like the first 70 we had last year.

Biased.

Outside of a few people I dont see all the love for the Habs.

East is still wide open.

LeafGm
10-08-2014, 03:27 PM
I really don't see myself as being biased on this, but I just can't see how the experts are loving the Habs so hard and calling us a bubble team.

I see the Habs as the bubble team, and us having a full 82 games like the first 70 we had last year.
The Habs deserve the love more, at this point. They stayed in a home-ice position pretty much wire to wire last year and made it to the conference final, while the Leafs flamed out in historic fashion and missed the playoffs. That's pretty much all it comes down to.

But yeah, if you compare the two rosters, I don't think any massive gap exists between the two. I wouldn't trade our roster for theirs either.

LeafOfFaith
10-08-2014, 03:41 PM
It's not about that.

It's about taking the roster that played in the final game of last season, comparing who left and who came since then, and seeing where things shake out.

Losing Vanek, Gionta, Briere, Gorges, Budaj, and others, and getting Parenteau, Malhotra, Gilbert, Sekac, and Tokarski seems like a substantial downgrade to me.

Habspatrol
10-08-2014, 04:00 PM
It's not about that.

It's about taking the roster that played in the final game of last season, comparing who left and who came since then, and seeing where things shake out.

Losing Vanek, Gionta, Briere, Gorges, Budaj, and others, and getting Parenteau, Malhotra, Gilbert, Sekac, and Tokarski seems like a substantial downgrade to me.

The Habs have been one of the top teams in the East for the past 2 seasons. Vanek played 18 of those game.
PAP is a significant improvement on Briere.
Gionta isn't much better than Malholtra if at all... but Malholtra is better suited to his role... so that's probably a positive for the Habs.
Gorges is better defensively than Gilbert but Gilbert's better offensively. Close to a wash there.
Tokarski>>>>Budaj
Sekac... we'll see but he looked awesome in the preseason.

Add the expected "breakout" for Galchenyuk and I fee pretty confident that the Habs will be every bit as good as they've been in the past two seasons.

UWHabs
10-08-2014, 04:00 PM
It's not about that.

It's about taking the roster that played in the final game of last season, comparing who left and who came since then, and seeing where things shake out.

Losing Vanek, Gionta, Briere, Gorges, Budaj, and others, and getting Parenteau, Malhotra, Gilbert, Sekac, and Tokarski seems like a substantial downgrade to me.

The only loss there is Vanek, but we didn't have him for the first 60 games of the year, and he didn't show up for the playoffs either. Gionta was a 3rd liner, Briere a 4th liner - PAP/Sekac more than replace those 2 guys. On D I call it a wash - maybe a downgrade in talent, but hopefully a healthier Emelin this year will make up for it. The big key for us will be Galchenyuk - lots of people predicting his breakout. He has the potential to be a 70+ point guy in his career; if he can make it close to there this year that's a huge bonus.

LeafGm
10-08-2014, 04:07 PM
You they they downgraded substantially? Really?

Gionta's a 35 year-old dwarf that only managed 40 points in the regular season, and 1 goal in their 17-game playoff run.
Briere's a 37 year-old dwarf that's totally finished. Only 25 points in 69 games last year. He's also been dumped in consecutive off-seasons.
Budaj's a run-of-the-mill, entirely replaceable backup goalie. That's why no one even bothered claiming him on waivers.
Gorges is a good second-pairing defenseman, but not exactly an indispensable asset.
Vanek was only around for the tail end of their season, and he was pretty unimpressive in the playoffs for them.

P.A. Parenteau alone, as long as he stays reasonably healthy for most of the year will be a more significant piece than any of the forwards they lost.

worm
10-08-2014, 04:28 PM
It's not about that.

It's about taking the roster that played in the final game of last season, comparing who left and who came since then, and seeing where things shake out.

Losing Vanek, Gionta, Briere, Gorges, Budaj, and others, and getting Parenteau, Malhotra, Gilbert, Sekac, and Tokarski seems like a substantial downgrade to me.

Well Tokarski replaced Budaj in the playoffs last year. So I guess an upgrade.
I like Gilbert over Gorges.
I like Parenteau over Gionta.
I like Sekac over Briere.
I do not like losing Vanek though.

worm
10-08-2014, 04:29 PM
We also lost Parros and Murray....which are good things.

leaffan2005
10-08-2014, 04:37 PM
The Habs and their success have and always will come down to Carey Price. Same could be said of a lot of teams but moreso one that has overachieved based on the composition of their roster. Good team, but far from a world-beater and a team we could easily overtake this year.

zeke
10-08-2014, 05:02 PM
You they they downgraded substantially? Really?

Gionta's a 35 year-old dwarf that only managed 40 points in the regular season, and 1 goal in their 17-game playoff run.
Briere's a 37 year-old dwarf that's totally finished. Only 25 points in 69 games last year. He's also been dumped in consecutive off-seasons.
Budaj's a run-of-the-mill, entirely replaceable backup goalie. That's why no one even bothered claiming him on waivers.
Gorges is a good second-pairing defenseman, but not exactly an indispensable asset.
Vanek was only around for the tail end of their season, and he was pretty unimpressive in the playoffs for them.

P.A. Parenteau alone, as long as he stays reasonably healthy for most of the year will be a more significant piece than any of the forwards they lost.

parenteau (60ish pts) is an offensive upgrade over gionta (40ish), though probably a downgrade in defense and the gritty intangibles. still a likely upgrade.

guys who can put up a 30pt pace in limited bottom six minutes like briere are valuable. depth like that is part of the reason the habs were underrated last year. add in the 20gms of vanek as lost scoring depth as well. they haven't replaced any of that scoring depth, aside from gambling on sekac.

i think malhotra was an awful pickup too, though since he's just pushing white/moen out of the lineup it doesn't matter much.

and i have a mancrush on gorges, and think replacing him with the soft flaky gilbert was a mistake. gilbert has played some big minutes on bad teams and put up decent corsis, but he's only played on one good team in his career and they played him bottom pair minutes and dumped him after one year. gorges imo was pretty much the heart and soul of that team, and gave them a reliable top 4 defensive presence and pker that i don'tvthink they have anymore.

and then there's price - odds are against him putting up a .927 again. could happen, but i'd bet against it.

JohnnyHolmes
10-08-2014, 10:28 PM
Spezza's .88ppg was in line with what he had done in 3 of the previous 4 full seasons (ignoring his 5 game season of course)

He was coming off of two surgeries and had his worst defensive season of his career. Points never tell the whole story, but you know that.


Michalek's .48ppg was in line with what he's done in 3 of 4 previous seasons in Ottawa

Also had surgery, also had probably his worst ever defensive performance. Without wheels, Michalek is nothing special.


Ryan's .69ppg was in line with his previous 2 seasons

Gay.


Anderson's .913 was....again....in line with the vast majority of his career performance level

The numbers thing again. There are three kinds of lies. Lies, damned lies, and statistics.


Phillips is old and busted

Yes he is.


Greening and Condra were never good to begin with.

Everyone other than Bryan Murray knows that Greening sucks. Condra gives most advanced stats nerds a semi though.



The problem appears to be your expectations. They performed almost exactly like their track record suggests they should have.

Enjoy this season buddy.

I'm sure I will enjoy the season. Thank you. I'd rather watch a team that works hard and loses than a team full of talent that dogs it. Unloading Spezza, and signing guys that want to be here is going to be good for the team.

There are still a couple of things I'd like to see happen, but will probably have to just live with for the next two seasons, barring a miracle trade or retirement (s).

BeLeafer
10-08-2014, 11:25 PM
Bobby Ryan is gay?

Habsy
10-08-2014, 11:37 PM
i think malhotra was an awful pickup too,

You mean the guy that just ass ****ed every center on the Leafs on the dot tonight? He was brought in to win faceoffs and he won 69% tonight.

Habs needed a faceoff stud because of their pitiful display last playoffs, they got one.

Habsy
10-08-2014, 11:39 PM
We also lost Parros and Murray....which are good things.

You forgot Bouillon.

The addition by subtraction is staggering.

Habsy
10-08-2014, 11:41 PM
It's not about that.

It's about taking the roster that played in the final game of last season, comparing who left and who came since then, and seeing where things shake out.

Losing Vanek, Gionta, Briere, Gorges, Budaj, and others, and getting Parenteau, Malhotra, Gilbert, Sekac, and Tokarski seems like a substantial downgrade to me.

All that tells me is that you really don't know what the players leaving brought to the Habs. I won't miss any of them save Vanek and he was a no-show when it counted the most.

MindzEye
10-09-2014, 03:14 PM
He was coming off of two surgeries and had his worst defensive season of his career. Points never tell the whole story, but you know that.

The worst defensive season of his career? I'm going to call bullshit there. He's never been a good defensive centre.



Also had surgery, also had probably his worst ever defensive performance. Without wheels, Michalek is nothing special.

Meh, performed near identical to how he had previously as a Sen. His 35 goal season was the outlier, not last season




Gay.

Agreed. That's the guy you traded quite a bit for and then gave a huge contract to. A .7ish winger. Enjoy




The numbers thing again. There are three kinds of lies. Lies, damned lies, and statistics.


The belief that your very narrow level of experience with the game tells us more than the combined sum of the constituent numbers is hubris of the highest order.




Yes he is.

Then why even mention him as being disappointing? He was always going to be shit last season.




Everyone other than Bryan Murray knows that Greening sucks. Condra gives most advanced stats nerds a semi though.


Meh, he's a decent 4th liner. Which is what it is. A 4th liner having a down year isn't going to ruin your season though. Not even worth bringing up in this discussion.





I'm sure I will enjoy the season. Thank you. I'd rather watch a team that works hard and loses than a team full of talent that dogs it. Unloading Spezza, and signing guys that want to be here is going to be good for the team.

There are still a couple of things I'd like to see happen, but will probably have to just live with for the next two seasons, barring a miracle trade or retirement (s).

My point was...last season was to be expected. It's where the Sens are at as a club. It didn't happen because the guys you mentioned "disappointed" or underperformed, or whatever. They produced as they would be expected to.

GGpX
10-09-2014, 07:04 PM
and i have a mancrush on gorges, and think replacing him with the soft flaky gilbert was a mistake. gilbert has played some big minutes on bad teams and put up decent corsis, but he's only played on one good team in his career and they played him bottom pair minutes and dumped him after one year. gorges imo was pretty much the heart and soul of that team, and gave them a reliable top 4 defensive presence and pker that i don'tvthink they have anymore.

While I don't disagree much with what you wrote, I don't see Gilbert as a replacement for Gorges per se. Gorges was miscast as a #2 to play with Subban out of pure necessity. We didn't have (and still don't have) a legit left handed #2 to play with Subban. If Markov was 10 years younger, we'd be great, but Markov can't play the minutes he used to as he starts to slow down as the season goes on. Right now, Emelin is replacing Gorges as the #2. Acquiring Gilbert was plan B, because Bergevin originally wanted Franson.

The reason we traded Gorges is because he's overpaid for what he brings and he's got a loooot of miles on him. If his body starts breaking down, and it hasn't really yet, then he'll become a total liability. Gorges was my favorite Hab for a lot of years because he had huge balls. Blocked shots like crazy, would take punishing hits all season long and outside of the year he blew his knee out, he rarely missed many games. He made the NHL purely on balls and willpower because in terms of skill, he's a minor leaguer. When he said he couldn't join the Leafs, I really believe him. He always seemed extremely proud to be a Hab.

I do think the Habs are going to miss him, but not because they got Gilbert. They're going to miss him because they kept Emelin over him.

Habsy
10-09-2014, 09:29 PM
Habs already with a questionable disallowed goal. Good start to lead the league in them again.

p.s. I really hate Chris Lee.

hockeylover
10-09-2014, 09:57 PM
Habsy already whining about Chris Lee.

:couch

Habsy
10-09-2014, 10:59 PM
No no, when it comes to Chris Lee it's pure, unadulterated, hatred. Other refs? Sure, whining applies. Lee? Hatred. Most inept ****er in stripes.

JohnnyHolmes
10-10-2014, 02:50 AM
The worst defensive season of his career? I'm going to call bullshit there. He's never been a good defensive centre.




Meh, performed near identical to how he had previously as a Sen. His 35 goal season was the outlier, not last season





Agreed. That's the guy you traded quite a bit for and then gave a huge contract to. A .7ish winger. Enjoy






The belief that your very narrow level of experience with the game tells us more than the combined sum of the constituent numbers is hubris of the highest order.





Then why even mention him as being disappointing? He was always going to be shit last season.






Meh, he's a decent 4th liner. Which is what it is. A 4th liner having a down year isn't going to ruin your season though. Not even worth bringing up in this discussion.






My point was...last season was to be expected. It's where the Sens are at as a club. It didn't happen because the guys you mentioned "disappointed" or underperformed, or whatever. They produced as they would be expected to.

You asked who underperformed, I answered.

Why, or by how much doesn't matter. They produced how you expected them to, but you're hardly unbiased. Your a fan of a rival team that likes to see them fail.

Ottawa should have been better than they were last season. I don't know how anyone can dispute that. You can bend stats to fit your argument, anyone can. That's what keeps these boards alive, but it doesn't really prove anything.

Spezza and Michalek produced at a pace consistent with their careers...that sounds beautiful on its' own. But then you just need to look at both of their career worst plus / miuses and that tells another side of the story.

Then if you know...you actually watched Sens games, all the proof you would need is right in front of your face. Spezza unrolling the red carpet for the opposition all night long doesn't appear on any stat sheet that I know of.

Anyway, I think the team has potential to hang around in the playoff race, but the shitty D is definitely going to be the biggest reason we miss, if we miss.

Cowen is also in mid season form already.

http://storage.ottawasun.com/v1/dynamic_resize/sws_path/suns-prod-images/1297616517436_ORIGINAL.jpg?quality=80&size=650x

MindzEye
10-10-2014, 10:20 AM
Heh........+/-

JohnnyHolmes
10-10-2014, 11:29 AM
Heh........+/-

Yes, +/-.

The stat everyone writes off when it doesn't favor their argument.

You can dismiss the fact that Spezza was on the ice for 26 more ES goals against than he was on for if you choose. I can't after watching his lazy play for 11 years though.

Even Corsi nerds have to concede that Spezza was a defensive trainwreck last season. But yeah...he got his points :lol

No problem with Spezza.

leafman101
10-10-2014, 11:37 AM
Spezza actually had positive Corsi numbers. His GAon/60 was insanely bad, but he had a low PDO mostly due to the .884 on ice save percentage the great Sens goalies gave him.

hockeylover
10-10-2014, 11:40 AM
Yes, +/-.

The stat everyone writes off when it doesn't favor their argument.

You can dismiss the fact that Spezza was on the ice for 26 more ES goals against than he was on for if you choose. I can't after watching his lazy play for 11 years though.

Even Corsi nerds have to concede that Spezza was a defensive trainwreck last season. But yeah...he got his points :lol

No problem with Spezza.

Or all the time.

MyNameIsJonas
10-10-2014, 11:41 AM
Yes, +/-.

The stat everyone writes off when it doesn't favor their argument.

You can dismiss the fact that Spezza was on the ice for 26 more ES goals against than he was on for if you choose. I can't after watching his lazy play for 11 years though.

Even Corsi nerds have to concede that Spezza was a defensive trainwreck last season. But yeah...he got his points :lol

No problem with Spezza.

Dan?

hockeylover
10-10-2014, 11:41 AM
Dan?

:lol

Volcanologist
10-10-2014, 12:24 PM
It's incredibly amusing watching sensfan argue about how bad Spezza is now that he's gone.

JohnnyHolmes
10-10-2014, 01:35 PM
It's incredibly amusing watching sensfan argue about how bad Spezza is now that he's gone.

Go read any post I've made about Spezza in the last year. I got freaking banned from hftards for christ's sake.

You guys are tits though, and I mean that in the best way.

JohnnyHolmes
10-10-2014, 01:40 PM
Spezza actually had positive Corsi numbers. His GAon/60 was insanely bad, but he had a low PDO mostly due to the .884 on ice save percentage the great Sens goalies gave him.

:lol right... Had nothing to do with his turning over the puck or not taking his man or anything like that. Holds on to the puck for 75% of his shift, then hands it over and watches the other guy score.

Good player.

Habspatrol
10-10-2014, 01:44 PM
Yes, +/-.

The stat everyone should write off.

fyp

LeafGm
10-10-2014, 01:47 PM
I think Johnny's been spending too much time at HFtards.

Besides him, I can't remember the last time anyone around here tried to use +/- in a argument as a legitimate tool to evaluate a player.

TheCountofMonteCristo
10-10-2014, 01:54 PM
I think Johnny's been spending too much time at HFtards.

Besides him, I can't remember the last time anyone around here tried to use +/- in a argument as a legitimate tool to evaluate a player.

I don't think it is valuable but just because it isn't used here doesn't make it useless. It isn't like this site is the Oracle of Delphi or has Papal infallability

Habspatrol
10-10-2014, 02:04 PM
I don't think it is valuable but just because it isn't used here doesn't make it useless. It isn't like this site is the Oracle of Delphi or has Papal infallability

Agreed 100%

Just because it's not used here doesn't make it useless. What makes it useless is that it's a useless stat with nothing useful to contribute.

zeke
10-10-2014, 02:06 PM
plus minus is a stat that actually misleads more than it informs.

it's worse than useless.

Neurospasm
10-10-2014, 04:23 PM
+/- TOI within a team can be helpful

zeke
10-10-2014, 04:27 PM
nope.

Habspatrol
10-10-2014, 04:54 PM
+/- TOI within a team can be helpful

Even then, a player gets a + or - when he's only one of 12 players on the ice. He could be 100% responsible for it or 0% responsible for it but he still gets the +/-. That's why it's a useless stat.

Deckie007
10-10-2014, 05:23 PM
Dan?

Genuinely lolling.

Metalleaf
10-10-2014, 05:26 PM
Genuinely lolling.

Literally just got it...

JohnnyHolmes
10-10-2014, 09:15 PM
Can one of you geniuses show me which stat demonstrates Spezza's defensive prowness since +/- is apparently useless?

Probably not.

Though I do understand your subconcious need to justify how awesome Spezza is since he'll be a Leaf next year. That will be fun to watch, and to play against I am sure.

BeLeafer
10-10-2014, 10:43 PM
Though I do understand your subconcious need to justify how awesome Spezza is since he'll be a Leaf next year. That will be fun to watch, and to play against I am sure.

Really reaching there. Probably should stick with the +/- thing, even though it's taboo here.

JohnnyHolmes
10-10-2014, 11:31 PM
Really reaching there. Probably should stick with the +/- thing, even though it's taboo here.

Are you kidding?

Leafs fans have been saying Spezza will be a Leaf for his entire career. He can't wait to get out of Ottawa, he wants to be a Leaf. We won't trade for him when we can sign him as a UFA anyway...etc.

I honestly can't wait for that. I really hope that he signs in Toronto.

Montana
10-11-2014, 12:01 AM
I honestly can't wait for that. I really hope that he signs in Toronto.

http://www.reactionface.info/sites/default/files/imagecache/Node_Page/images/1351116165579.gif

hockeylover
10-11-2014, 12:13 AM
Heh. She is the best.

MindzEye
10-11-2014, 12:21 AM
Genuinely lolling.

Same...

MindzEye
10-11-2014, 12:24 AM
Really reaching there. Probably should stick with the +/- thing, even though it's taboo here.

It's taboo everywhere, not just here.

Even if you accept it as useful at face value (and it's not), a recent study has shown that the +'s and -'s are improperly awarded approx 40% of the time. If goals were given to the wrong guy 40% of the time, we'd stop giving a **** about goal scoring totals in a hurry.

Habspatrol
10-11-2014, 12:57 AM
I didn't get the "Dan?" joke.

Metalleaf
10-11-2014, 01:02 AM
I didn't get the "Dan?" joke.

Facebook thing from Jonas' page....dude was trying to tell that sv% is useless and the eye test >>

Habspatrol
10-11-2014, 01:05 AM
Ahhhhh... thanks.

hockeylover
10-11-2014, 08:46 AM
Yeah. All the FIers on his Facebook got involved.

JohnnyHolmes
10-11-2014, 08:51 AM
Yeah. All the FIers on his Facebook got involved.

Y'all are on each others' Facebooks?

hockeylover
10-11-2014, 09:16 AM
Are you feeling left out, Johnny?

JohnnyHolmes
10-11-2014, 09:20 AM
Not at all, I wouldn't put any of you on my facebook account. No offense.

MyNameIsJonas
10-11-2014, 10:22 AM
Not at all, I wouldn't put any of you on my facebook account. No offense.

That sorta hurts...sorta....well...Spezza level indifference.

Deckie007
10-11-2014, 10:49 AM
Not at all, I wouldn't put any of you on my facebook account. No offense.

I guess you don't love this community like we do. You're also missing out on the pictures from our trip to Puck's Farm. Jonas and I wore matching overalls.

MyNameIsJonas
10-11-2014, 10:55 AM
I guess you don't love this community like we do. You're also missing out on the pictures from our trip to Puck's Farm. Jonas and I wore matching overalls.

I remember zero of this.

Montana
10-11-2014, 10:58 AM
GHB is a helluva drug.

MyNameIsJonas
10-11-2014, 11:03 AM
GHB is a helluva drug.

so is the love between a Jonas and a Deckie.

JohnnyHolmes
10-11-2014, 02:32 PM
It's more a reflection on me than on anybody else.

My real world and internet personas are not that different, however I enjoy my anonymity.

SENSible
10-11-2014, 09:58 PM
Look up, way up...to the Habs

Habsy
10-11-2014, 11:12 PM
Good start to the season for the cardiac kids in bleu blanc et rouge. 6 points, all on the road.

SENSible
10-12-2014, 03:34 AM
Good start to the season for the cardiac kids in bleu blanc et rouge. 6 points, all on the road.

Yup, they've been impressive.

Habsy
10-12-2014, 09:43 AM
The point total is impressive but I wouldn't say their play has been. They've shown the ability of come from behind and score goals, which is impressive, but have also looked disinterested in first periods falling behind in each game. That isn't impressive. They can't keep falling behind and expect to win. It's a recipe for disaster. Also, Price has looked pedestrian in his two starts. Heck Tokarski looked impressive in Washington. I like the way they continue to fight when down but really dislike the fact that they don't play a full 60 minutes. Hopefully that changes, soon.

hairnova
10-12-2014, 10:22 AM
Nice to see wins when Price isn't at the top of his game though. Should be a good sign moving forward.

JohnnyHolmes
10-12-2014, 01:24 PM
It's taboo everywhere, not just here.

Even if you accept it as useful at face value (and it's not), a recent study has shown that the +'s and -'s are improperly awarded approx 40% of the time. If goals were given to the wrong guy 40% of the time, we'd stop giving a **** about goal scoring totals in a hurry.

Before I forget...

Heh.

MindzEye
10-12-2014, 05:37 PM
Before I forget...

Heh.

I accept your apology

JohnnyHolmes
10-13-2014, 06:29 AM
http://new1.fjcdn.com/comments/Those+are+some+good+maymays+friend+_6f67e31c524718 63af16582fedf6cfa2.jpg

Habsy
10-13-2014, 09:16 AM
Good to see you've dropped weight Johnny, keep it up!

JackBurton
10-13-2014, 10:12 PM
Wow. Habs are getting destroyed.

Habspatrol
10-13-2014, 10:19 PM
They looked like a team playing their 4th road game in 6 nights. That was pathetic.

Wayward DP
10-13-2014, 10:21 PM
If you pay any attention to these boards, you certainly know one blowout loss to a playoff team means you should more or less give up on the season, fire the coach, and trade your core players ;) And, most importantly, PANIC.

hockeylover
10-13-2014, 10:22 PM
Bit of a rough start for Boston so far. One win in four games.

Habspatrol
10-13-2014, 10:26 PM
If you pay any attention to these boards, you certainly know one blowout loss to a playoff team means you should more or less give up on the season, fire the coach, and trade your core players ;) And, most importantly, PANIC.

Same on the Hab board. 3-1 to start the year, all on the road and we're the worse team in the league.