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number17
10-29-2014, 01:05 PM
When the Bruins cruised to a 4-0 rout over the Leafs, one glaring play where Kessel was beat cleanly by Krejci and Phaneuf, in essentially a 2 on 1 scenario, allowed Kirecji free path to the net (and eventually scored) brought a lot of criticisms on Dion's defensive ability as the team's #1 dman. This brings an interesting discussion - What IS Dion Phaneuf, what is his strength, what is his weakness, and is Carlyle using him appropriately?

A good analysis has been done by MLHS here (http://mapleleafshotstove.com/2014/10/11/re-evaluating-dion-phaneuf-victim-miscalculation/) and concluded Dion's always been a subpar defensive defenseman and Carlyle's decision to make him the defensive-go-to guy is the biggest reason for Toronto's big GAA.

The board's had numerous discussions on Dion but what is clear has been ...

- Carlyle's made Dion his #1 defensive (and also offensive) defenseman

- Carlyle's relied on Dion for all key situation, including 5v5, PK, close games, dying minutes

- Carlyle's given Dion the toughest defensive assignment, tougher than most dman in the league

- Dion's corsi #, despite poor compared to the rest of the league, constantly leads the team when considered the quality of opponents he had to face

- Toronto's had some major, major breakdown in key minutes of the game, nothing more vivid than the game 7 breakdown vs. the Bruins, and Dion was on the ice for a lot of the key goals in that game

- Carlyle, for all his faults, have no choice but to lean heavily on #3, given that his 2nd best best defenseman has been Gunnarson with a bad hip, a 37 year old Robidas who looks like he may be able to handle 2nd unit duty when he finally get his timing back, or extremely young and inconsistent youngsters like Gardiner and Rielly. Whether Carlyle realizes or not realize Dion's limitation, he has no choice.

- Carlyle's system does not help any player defensively, even if you were Chara or Doughty.


But it does seem like what this team really needs is a defensive anchor to partner with Dion to ease his defensive responsibility, so that he can go back to being an offensive defenseman who also happen to be a workhorse capable of heavy minutes, and NOT having to be that defensive go-to guy.

Unfortunately, in another attempt to help Toronto's blueline, the Robidas experiment has not looked good and Toronto's best defensive defenseman is Polak, who is good, but is limited. I don't see Polak as a top unit guy at all, but he can be a very competent 2nd unit guy (which is more than Gunnarson with a bad hip can do)

zeke
10-29-2014, 01:17 PM
No doubt he looked bad on those two goals in the boston game, but its really hard to tell at the moment what we "need" defensively because of thse factors:

1) Leafs have been just a mediocre, not bad, Goals against team this year.
2) Leafs have been just a medicore, not bad, Shots against team this year.
3) Leafs have been just a mediocre, not bad, possession team this year in even strength close situations.
4) Phaneuf has been one of the best possession players on the team.
5) Despite being on for some glaring goals against, Dion is positive on the +/- side as well....and that's not based on being on the ice for a bunch of goals, as he's posting one of the best goals against per 60min stats on the team as well.


So if this trend continues, with Phaneuf being a + player in both shot-based and goal-based metrics as the top guy with the toughest qualcomp on an average defensive team.....well, then, it'll be hard to criticize his defense much.

Metalleaf
10-29-2014, 01:18 PM
Robidas has looked fine for a guy coming off a broken leg and zero training camp.

Leafin'
10-29-2014, 01:23 PM
Phaneuf needs a better partner than Cody Franson.

Get Phaneuf a guy like:

Kevin Bieksa
Dan Girardi
Josh Gorges
Johnny Boychuk
Dennis Wideman

And watch the teams fortunes change.

Metalleaf
10-29-2014, 01:25 PM
Wideman sucks, Flames fans can't get rid of that guy fast enough.

Volcanologist
10-29-2014, 01:27 PM
Dion is a good player who is expected to be a great player.

leafman101
10-29-2014, 01:28 PM
Its too early to give up on Robidas. He'll still likely end up being the guy to fill that spot, and overall he has been as good as anyone on that list.

In the long run it will have to come from within, with the development of a guy like Rielly, Gardiner or Percy.

Leafin'
10-29-2014, 01:28 PM
Wideman sucks, Flames fans can't get rid of that guy fast enough.

Could be right, i just remember him being a good defenseman before. 5 Million is a big cap hit as well. Mark Giordano would be an excellent addition to the team.

Preston_Mizzi
10-29-2014, 01:37 PM
Top 30 d probably. But on the lower end. I guess in that sense he's a #1, but he'll need way more support from the rest of his d if the Leafs ever plan on winning with him as their best d.

Generally though, I think he'd be best suited as a 2 on a great team. Hopefully Rielly can become that 1, and they'll be set.

MindzEye
10-29-2014, 01:48 PM
Top 30 d probably. But on the lower end. I guess in that sense he's a #1, but he'll need way more support from the rest of his d if the Leafs ever plan on winning with him as their best d.

Generally though, I think he'd be best suited as a 2 on a great team. Hopefully Rielly can become that 1, and they'll be set.

We start getting into some really ridiculous names being better than Dion when you get past about 15-17.

Realistically, Dion is part of a pack of defenders like Kronwall, Giordano, Shattenkirk, etc that are a step down from the legit elite, but are legit #1's

BG
10-29-2014, 01:51 PM
Wideman is over-paid, injury-prone and a defensive liability. He's essentially a very good 6 or 7th defenceman and powerplay point shot.

worm
10-29-2014, 01:52 PM
I tried to warn you guys :p

Metalleaf
10-29-2014, 01:55 PM
Phanuef is at worst a 15th to 20th ranked defender, and on occasion he sneaks into the top 10 when he's on form. He hasn't had an overly reliable D partner since he's been here.

Leafin'
10-29-2014, 02:08 PM
Phanuef is at worst a 15th to 20th ranked defender, and on occasion he sneaks into the top 10 when he's on form. He hasn't had an overly reliable D partner since he's been here.

He's had Franson this year. Shocking he hasn't "looked" good.

BeLeafer
10-29-2014, 02:27 PM
Posted a thread on this article (with the link as well) a while back.

number17
10-29-2014, 03:32 PM
Missed that beleafer, but it's a good article.

It isn't about Dion being a top 15 or 20 dman (which i believe he is) ... it is about where Dion is compared with other 1st unit guys DEFENSIVELY.

Because the problem with Dion in TO is, Carlyle (out of alternatives too) is using him as the go-to guy for all situations - offensive, defensive, special teams.

When the advanced stats seem to indicate Dion is (or was, his offence has taken a step back last season and thus far this year) a good offensive defenseman, who's only average plus defensively, and is being put into a very tough situation here in Toronto.

Assuming Dion get back to form offensively, he sure should be the go to guy on PP, but should he get the toughest 5v5 minutes? Should he get the PK1 minutes? Should the Leafs get someone else (outside or from within the system) to do the heavy lifting for him while he focuses on offense, just like how Subban or Karlsson is being used in MTL and OTT (NOT comparing Dion to them, but comparing how a dman is used)?

I think Dion will be a better dman and Toronto a better team IF he doesn't have to get the #1 QoC minutes, and he can slide back to #2 or #3, and someone can also play most of his PK minutes.

number17
10-29-2014, 03:33 PM
BTW I realize the link was kinda hidden in the first post so here it is again

READ THIS (http://mapleleafshotstove.com/2014/10/11/re-evaluating-dion-phaneuf-victim-miscalculation/)

zeke
10-29-2014, 04:00 PM
the article has one basic flaw which really weakens it ---- the metrics he uses tell him that guys like Aulie and Komisarek have had comparable recent usage to phaneuf, which is patently ridiculous, and brings into question the basic assumptions he is making.

hockeylover
10-29-2014, 04:01 PM
We had this same discussion when Beleafer posted the article.

http://46wvda23y0nl13db2j3bl1yxxln.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/dionphaneuf2012-14.2.png

Harrison, Komisarek, Aulie, Kostka?

How does he determine these guys are "deployed comparably"?

Brings the whole thing into serious question, IMO.

hockeylover
10-29-2014, 04:01 PM
Yeah...Zeke beat me to it.

Blueman
10-29-2014, 04:17 PM
I'd take Giordano over Phaneuf

zeke
10-29-2014, 04:17 PM
and he even admits earlier in the article that there are no real comparables for Phaneuf's usage, so clearly he tried to widen the net and let some flaws enter.

I refuse to judge the leaf players' corsis until we get a coach who can implement a decent system.

Kulemin leads the Islanders' forwards in cf% this year, and he's been the worst leaf forward in CF% the last 2yrs other than the laughable McClem/Orr/McLaren trio.

And that's even accounting for the change on Zone Start usage.

The year before randy arrived, of course, Kuly was one of the Leafs' best CF% forwards every year.

One thing the smart analytics guys are starting to realize is just how much systems can effect a player's corsi, regardless of talent level. And its not a linear correlation necessarily, or even a steady curve - instead it seems that certain systems (or non systems) coupled with certain usage can absolutely cripple a player's CF% underservedly.

Its not just that randy's system is worse than the others, but that it seems to be an outlier in today's NHL - a system intentionall completely different from what the majority of the rest of the NHL does. So when 90% of the league is doing one thing, it might be easy to compare Corsis between those teams, but the 10% doing something completely different can create bizarre outlier statistical outcomes. Outcomes which have a tough time being explained even by adjusting for zone starts or quality of competition, because those are all based on league averages in the first palce.

And I think we can see this this year already - Randy explicitly gave up (or was forced to give up) some of the tactics that made his system so unique, and the team explicitly reverted to new tactics more typical of what the majority of teams are doing out there. Randy has also eased up on his maniacal line-matching, at least a bit, meaning that player's corsis aren't as extremely distorted by qualcomp and zone starts as they may have been before. And sure it's a small sample, and the improvement has been only in fits and starts, but already we see the leafs be a more normal team in terms of possession stats....and unsurprisingly (to me) we're also seeing Phaneuf putting up very good possession numbers at the same time.

BeLeafer
10-29-2014, 04:37 PM
You might not want to admit it, but those are very much part of the reason +/- is so useless for evaluating players across teams ... and a big reason why I'm not sold on these possession stats (at least for that purpose).

zeke
10-29-2014, 04:46 PM
Fortunately, the possession stats give us far many more times the data points, which lets us deal with most of the issues of +/- ....namely quality of teammates, quality of competition, and usage. That's exactly why they are better. If we could adjust +/- for those factors, it would be a better stat too....though with only a small fraction of the data points, still not very good.

But no doubt they are far from perfect.....especially when a team plays a specifically and significantly different system than the majority of teams play in the league.

The leafs' possession numbers last year were insanely stupid. Its obvious that this collection of players have the talent to do better than that.

That being said - if we want to analyze how a team is playing (not its talent level, simply how well it is playing), then these possession numbers really are by far the best numbers to look at. It is really, really hard for a team to beat their corsi other than with an outlier in the non-corsi factor (goaltending) even in the short term, and nearly impossible over the longterm.

number17
10-29-2014, 04:52 PM
All of them good points.

So forget advanced stats for a sec. What IS Dion Phaneuf from objective eyes of a hockey fan?

To me, Dion is an offensive defenseman who is capable of 10-15G, 40-50 points a season offensively. He's a good PP pointman, but he's a better shot than he is as a QB, which means he's better as the one wiring up and shooting than the one distributing and shooting the puck.

Defensively Dion is over-average only, but a great shut-down defensive defenseman he is not. He is average in defensive zone coverage, 1 on 1 battle, and his physical presence is better used in open ice hits than physical battles along the board or in front of the crease.

He CAN log a lot of minutes, he CAN play in PK but you gotta wonder if he may be better off playing PK2 instead of PK1, and let someone else do the heavy lifting in ES QoC defensive duty so that he can focus on the offense. Or, at the very least, give him a capable D partner that would give him some leeway in gambling offensively, instead of constantly having to cover for his partner defensively (Holzer, Kostka, Franson, Gunnar with bad hip ... on and on and on)

BeLeafer
10-29-2014, 05:14 PM
Fortunately, the possession stats give us far many more times the data points, which lets us deal with most of the issues of +/- ....namely quality of teammates, quality of competition, and usage. That's exactly why they are better. If we could adjust +/- for those factors, it would be a better stat too....though with only a small fraction of the data points, still not very good.
True and true for most stats on individual performance. It's like pointing out that Bozak's offensive numbers are closely tied to linemates, TOI and PP TOI.


But no doubt they are far from perfect.....especially when a team plays a specifically and significantly different system than the majority of teams play in the league.

The leafs' possession numbers last year were insanely stupid. Its obvious that this collection of players have the talent to do better than that.

That being said - if we want to analyze how a team is playing (not its talent level, simply how well it is playing), then these possession numbers really are by far the best numbers to look at. It is really, really hard for a team to beat their corsi other than with an outlier in the non-corsi factor (goaltending) even in the short term, and nearly impossible over the longterm.

I agree with this. I think they are a good measure of team performance and line-by-line performance.

MindzEye
10-29-2014, 05:17 PM
I don't think it's really fair to say that Dion is only average defensively. Most of the **** ups that are loudly attributed to him, were him being caught out of position due to someone else's **** up.

How often do we see him abused by the star players he's matched up on? If he was the defender that we're told that he is, those star players would be abusing us a lot more often.

zeke
10-29-2014, 06:43 PM
remember that even ignoring phaneuf's unique usage and the team's unique system, phaneuf fared extremely well in other newer advanced stats - namely preventing zone entries and in efficient zone exits.

and again, i don't think its a coincidence at all that his possession numbers have gone from awful all the way up to very good this year in a more normal system with more normal usage.

it might be a blip but 10% of a season is not a tiny sample and i highly doubt his possession numbers looked anywhere near this good over any 9gm sample in the last two years.

CH1
10-29-2014, 06:45 PM
You guys got Dion for peanuts. And his cap hit is OK. Time to analyze someone else.

Wayward DP
10-29-2014, 06:59 PM
I'd like to see more offensive production from Dion, but pretty sure his splits from last year showed his ES production remaining fairly consistent, just his PP production was down. Which in a year where we had a very good PP I'm not too upset about, but I think the biggest issue is his PP usage (and being paired with Franson as opposed to Reilly/Gardiner).

And yeah, the numbers otherwise speak for themselves. We've got a lot bigger problems than Dion.

leafman101
10-29-2014, 07:04 PM
Phaneuf really isn't an "offensive dman" anymore. For the most part he has scored in the 30 point range here. Obviously he has skill, but he has focused a lot on the other side of the ice.

He has had pretty insane usage the last couple years and held his own, so I don't think you can call hinm average defensively either. Most dmen in the league couldn't play 23+ minutes a game, against the other teams top line, every single shift, and not get his ass handed to him.

He's a great all around player.

JackBurton
10-30-2014, 01:38 AM
I was a big Phanuef defender but I really dislike what I've seen of him since that collapse started last season.

Habsy
10-30-2014, 09:10 AM
Phaneuf needs a better partner than Cody Franson.

Get Phaneuf a guy like:

Kevin Bieksa
Dan Girardi
Josh Gorges
Johnny Boychuk
Dennis Wideman

And watch the teams fortunes change.

Funny. #1 D are supposed to make their partners look better not the other way around.

It never seems to be Dion's fault. Maybe he's just jumped the shark already.

Mike Komisarek needs to send Markov Thank you cards for the NHL career Markov gave him.

zeke
10-30-2014, 10:04 AM
All the numbers say Phaneuf has played great this year. All of them.

Franson, too.

number17
10-30-2014, 11:19 AM
All the numbers say Phaneuf has played great this year. All of them.

Franson, too.But are they?

Phaneuf's CF% = 51.7%, good for a very mediocre 67th in the league. If we are to look at CA/60 (which is a more defense-stat) he drops to 116 at 57.5. His FF% is 51.9, good for 105th, and his FA/60 is 42.9 at 118th in league. (all these stats for 5v5 close)

All these stats suggest Phaneuf is at best an average plus defensive defenseman. I do agree with the argument Carlyle's system will hurt any player's possession stats, but between the stats and what we can see on the ice, I just can't come to the conclusion Phaneuf is 'great' defensively.

leafman101
10-30-2014, 11:25 AM
But are they?

Phaneuf's CF% = 51.7%, good for a very mediocre 67th in the league. If we are to look at CA/60 (which is a more defense-stat) he drops to 116 at 57.5. His FF% is 51.9, good for 105th, and his FA/60 is 42.9 at 118th in league. (all these stats for 5v5 close)

All these stats suggest Phaneuf is at best an average plus defensive defenseman. I do agree with the argument Carlyle's system will hurt any player's possession stats, but between the stats and what we can see on the ice, I just can't come to the conclusion Phaneuf is 'great' defensively.

You can't ignore usage though. He is putting up those average numbers, playing against some of the toughest competition in the NHL.

So he is holding the toughest competition in the nhl to average production numbers. The average defenseman gets dominated by those guys, not neutralizes them.

BG
10-30-2014, 11:29 AM
+1

Yep, you just need to look at the top of those lists, and then again at who is grouped around Phaneuf. He's holding his own, playing very tough minutes.

zeke
10-30-2014, 11:35 AM
But are they?

Phaneuf's CF% = 51.7%, good for a very mediocre 67th in the league. If we are to look at CA/60 (which is a more defense-stat) he drops to 116 at 57.5. His FF% is 51.9, good for 105th, and his FA/60 is 42.9 at 118th in league. (all these stats for 5v5 close)

All these stats suggest Phaneuf is at best an average plus defensive defenseman. I do agree with the argument Carlyle's system will hurt any player's possession stats, but between the stats and what we can see on the ice, I just can't come to the conclusion Phaneuf is 'great' defensively.

Well, if you adjust for zone usage (which is done a little ham-fistedly but still usefully by ignoring any data points that come within 10 seconds of a faceoff), he looks much better than that at 55.7%, which ranks him 27th amongst 155 qualifiers. Franson ranks 15th at 57.9%. Rielly ranks 23rd at 56.7%.

Even if you broaden that to all 5v5 situations instead of just close situations, Dion's 54.3% ranks 46th out of 186 qualifiers. Franson ranks 61st at 52.9%.


and these numbers aren't adjusted for either quality of opponent or quality of their own team, both of which would likely drive Dion's numbers up higher.

JackBurton
10-30-2014, 12:14 PM
So we're happy with Phaneuf and Franson this season because of geeky advanced stats no one cared about 5 years ago? Franson can't get shipped-out fast enough.

If we want to seriously contend, we need better than that.

zeke
10-30-2014, 12:25 PM
You don't like the geeky advanced stats?

ok.

Phaneuf +2, 26 hits (8th nhl), 20 blocks (18th nhl)
Franson +1, 25 hits (9th nhl), 12gl/35pt pace

zeke
10-30-2014, 12:30 PM
and remember, of course, that this leafs team has been only mediocre, not awful, defensively this year.

JackBurton
10-30-2014, 12:31 PM
So you are happy with what you see?

Franson will not be back next season. If you want to contend it can't be with Cody Franson playing big minutes no matter what stats tell you.

zeke
10-30-2014, 12:41 PM
Can't say there's been much to criticize about Franson's game since that game against detroit.

BeLeafer
10-30-2014, 01:01 PM
Yeah, he's been surprisingly good other than that game. I had high hopes for him a few years back that crashed last season. It will be great if he can elevate his game to be consistently solid like has been the past while. Huge boost for the blueline, as he was a big weakness last year.

Bleedsblue&white
10-30-2014, 01:09 PM
I would love to be able to quantify what playing for the Leafs does to a players rankings. For good or bad things change when you play for certain teams in certain sports.

Numbers are numbers, but being a Leaf can cause a player to garner more attention, and it can cause bias to negatively affect them as well. Would Phaneuf being getting any attention at all if his career was just skating along in some lesser magnet? Maybe he'd just be your everyday good defencemen, not anything flashy, certainly not Captain of the Maple Leafs.

Not sure, but I feel that he's been slammed as much for what people think a captain should be as his play.

Bleedsblue&white
10-30-2014, 01:10 PM
If he wasn't captain right now I think he'd get less flak even as a Leaf...dumb move bringing him in like that.

zeke
10-30-2014, 01:12 PM
I would love to be able to quantify what playing for the Leafs does to a players rankings. For good or bad things change when you play for certain teams in certain sports.

Numbers are numbers, but being a Leaf can cause a player to garner more attention, and it can cause bias to negatively affect them as well. Would Phaneuf being getting any attention at all if his career was just skating along in some lesser magnet? Maybe he'd just be your everyday good defencemen, not anything flashy, certainly not Captain of the Maple Leafs.

Not sure, but I feel that he's been slammed as much for what people think a captain should be as his play.

Francois Beauchemin

BG
10-30-2014, 01:46 PM
Imagine if Dion was a Red Wing, and skated Nik Kronwall's minutes.

CRL
11-01-2014, 10:23 PM
Imagine if Dion was a Red Wing, and skated Nik Kronwall's minutes.

doesn't matter, he is not as good as Kronwall

MindzEye
11-01-2014, 10:27 PM
doesn't matter, he is not as good as Kronwall

Another night, another star match up contained by our #1 defender who isn't as good as anyone else in his role in the entire league.

CRL
11-01-2014, 10:31 PM
Another night, another star match up contained by our #1 defender who isn't as good as anyone else in his role in the entire league.

please, Chi is not as good as before and on their way down to bottom, tell me this, would McWilliam/Holzer handle this different from Dion but for fraction of the price?

BeLeafer
11-01-2014, 10:33 PM
please, Chi is not as good as before and on their way down to bottom, tell me this, would McWilliam/Holzer handle this different from Dion but for fraction of the price?

Can I have some?

Metalleaf
11-01-2014, 10:33 PM
Yes, but only to getting you McDavid.

MindzEye
11-01-2014, 10:36 PM
please, Chi is not as good as before and on their way down to bottom,

What.The.****.

Chicago is one of the elite teams in the league, and will remain so for at least the next 4-5 years.



tell me this, would McWilliam/Holzer handle this different from Dion but for fraction of the price?

**** me, this is worse than the first statement.

Yes, of course they would "handle this different". They're not as impactful in the AHL as Dion is in the NHL. **** me man, how do you expect anyone to take your shit seriously with comments like this?

Metalleaf
11-01-2014, 10:39 PM
This is why Dion gets a bad rap, people convince themselves Dion is awful and spit on any evidence to the contrary.

BeLeafer
11-01-2014, 10:40 PM
I'm going for some more black ... maybe it will start to make sense.

CRL
11-01-2014, 10:43 PM
What.The.****.

Chicago is one of the elite teams in the league, and will remain so for at least the next 4-5 years.




**** me, this is worse than the first statement.

Yes, of course they would "handle this different". They're not as impactful in the AHL as Dion is in the NHL. **** me man, how do you expect anyone to take your shit seriously with comments like this?

LOL your problem is that you judging ppl by they contact size but not capabilities, I said it before and most of my friends agreed that Dion+Franson pair is worst in this team no matter what you put with Dion or Franson, they are not fit to this team, maybe better fit for other

Wayward DP
11-01-2014, 10:43 PM
LOL your problem is that you judging ppl by they contact size but not capabilities, I said it before and most of my friends agreed that Dion+Franson pair is worst in this team no matter what you put with Dion or Franson, they are not fit to this team, maybe better fit for other

Just because you have dumb friends doesn't make you any smarter.

Deckie007
11-01-2014, 10:45 PM
LOL your problem is that you judging ppl by they contact size but not capabilities, I said it before and most of my friends agreed that Dion+Franson pair is worst in this team no matter what you put with Dion or Franson, they are not fit to this team, maybe better fit for other

I don't know how you can post on this board for 7 + years and still be this stupid. Far too many intelligent people to learn from.

CRL
11-01-2014, 10:46 PM
Just because you have dumb friends doesn't make you any smarter.

says who?

MindzEye
11-01-2014, 10:49 PM
LOL your problem is that you judging ppl by they contact size but not capabilities, I said it before and most of my friends agreed that Dion+Franson pair is worst in this team no matter what you put with Dion or Franson, they are not fit to this team, maybe better fit for other

Then you, and your friends haven't the faintest **** what you're watching.

It's really simple man. Dion gets the premiere match up every night. Whoever the opposition best is, Dion gets that match up. When we the last time we got torched in that match up> I mean, if Dion was as shit as we're lead to believe, surely we would be getting mauled on a night basis by the top players around the league.

CRL
11-01-2014, 10:49 PM
I don't know how you can post on this board for 7 + years and still be this stupid. Far too many intelligent people to learn from.

oh boy, kids, I have been around you know, most of you speaking from ur heart but I'm my using brain

CRL
11-01-2014, 10:50 PM
Then you, and your friends haven't the faintest **** what you're watching.

It's really simple man. Dion gets the premiere match up every night. Whoever the opposition best is, Dion gets that match up. When we the last time we got torched in that match up> I mean, if Dion was as shit as we're lead to believe, surely we would be getting mauled on a night basis by the top players around the league.
should I remind you game 7 vs Boston? short memory amigo

MindzEye
11-01-2014, 10:51 PM
should I remind you game 7 vs Boston? short memory amigo

So the last time Dion got torched was in 2012-13? That's supposed to support your argument?

BeLeafer
11-01-2014, 10:51 PM
oh boy, kids, I have been around you know, most of you speaking from ur heart but I'm my using brain

Dare I say, therein lies the issue.

MindzEye
11-01-2014, 10:53 PM
oh boy, kids, I have been around you know, most of you speaking from ur heart but I'm my using brain

You're really not. Your brain would tell you that 1) The numbers don't lie & 2) You don't watch the other #1 defenders in hockey like you watch Dion. Dion's flaws are magnified in your view and the flaws of others happen nice and quietly elsewhere, away from your attention.

CRL
11-01-2014, 10:57 PM
You're really not. Your brain would tell you that 1) The numbers don't lie & 2) You don't watch the other #1 defenders in hockey like you watch Dion. Dion's flaws are magnified in your view and the flaws of others happen nice and quietly elsewhere, away from your attention.

okay answer this strait, why Dion never been considered for team Canada?

Wayward DP
11-01-2014, 10:59 PM
Just for example, Keith was a -2 tonight, and got burned for at least two two-on-ones against because of poor reads.

BeLeafer
11-01-2014, 11:02 PM
Keith was shite tonight.

Wayward DP
11-01-2014, 11:05 PM
Keith was shite tonight.

Yup. And he usually gets sheltered from the top match ups anyways (Hjalmarsson-Oduya is the Hawks shutdown pair).

MindzEye
11-01-2014, 11:13 PM
okay answer this strait, why Dion never been considered for team Canada?

Dion has been considered for Team Canada, he's just never made it.

JackBurton
11-01-2014, 11:13 PM
Just for example, Keith was a -2 tonight, and got burned for at least two two-on-ones against because of poor reads.

And no one will notice or care.

CRL
11-01-2014, 11:15 PM
Dion has been considered for Team Canada, he's just never made it.

so should we discuss all players that were considered?

CRL
11-01-2014, 11:16 PM
And no one will notice or care.


maybe coze all 2 goals scored on us today were score on PP which not counted for +/- ?

Wayward DP
11-01-2014, 11:17 PM
maybe coze all 2 goals scored on us today were score on PP which not counted for +/- ?

You realize Keith being a -2 meant he was on the ice for 2 of the 3 goals scored against tonight? Right?

CRL
11-01-2014, 11:20 PM
You realize Keith being a -2 meant he was on the ice for 2 of the 3 goals scored against tonight? Right?

is that Dion's achievement? how about goals scored on us during PP?

Wayward DP
11-01-2014, 11:21 PM
is that Dion's achievement? how about goals scored on us during PP?

Go to bed, your English comprehension is deteriorating

CRL
11-01-2014, 11:23 PM
Go to bed, your English comprehension is deteriorating

I'll take that as an argument when other arguments are not available

Wayward DP
11-01-2014, 11:31 PM
I'll take that as an argument when other arguments are not available

No, you just (again) totally missed the obvious point. If I was feeling more charitable I would explain it to you slowly and in a way you may understand, but my charity has run out for the night.

CRL
11-01-2014, 11:36 PM
No, you just (again) totally missed the obvious point. If I was feeling more charitable I would explain it to you slowly and in a way you may understand, but my charity has run out for the night.

sounds like excuse

MindzEye
11-01-2014, 11:37 PM
so should we discuss all players that were considered?

Your choice of words.

If your question is...why hasn't Dion made a team Canada?

Because Canada is gifted on the back end with a constant stream of franchise calibre defenders, and the team Canada brain trust seems to have fallen in love with the idea of role players (like Vlasic, for example) for the depth roles on team Canada's. They've said it themselves that they don't just choose and all star team. Additionally, Dion gets overlooked because he plays for a club that gets tons of visibility and has had little success in recent years.

CRL
11-01-2014, 11:43 PM
Your choice of words.

If your question is...why hasn't Dion made a team Canada?

Because Canada is gifted on the back end with a constant stream of franchise calibre defenders, and the team Canada brain trust seems to have fallen in love with the idea of role players (like Vlasic, for example) for the depth roles on team Canada's. They've said it themselves that they don't just choose and all star team. Additionally, Dion gets overlooked because he plays for a club that gets tons of visibility and has had little success in recent years.
so you are willing to consider all kind of theories but not one which starts with "coze he is not simply good enough"?
why you hate Leafs so much?

Leafin'
11-02-2014, 01:50 AM
Phaneuf was fine tonight. We've seen good Phaneuf and bad Phaneuf this season. He's played better since that player only meeting, thats for certain.

I know the analytics say Franson is a good partner or Phaneuf, but i'm not so convinced.