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View Full Version : The Official Komarov Appreciation Thread



Killer93
11-08-2014, 09:56 PM
He's ****ing awesome. Discuss

MindzEye
11-08-2014, 09:59 PM
You could start by spelling his name correctly. I'm sure he'd appreciate that.

MyNameIsJonas
11-08-2014, 10:14 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKmIYRBaL9w

JackBurton
11-08-2014, 10:17 PM
Haven't had a guy like him since Tucker.

Worth every penny. Terrific signing. A lot here didn't want him signed.

MapleLeafBlueJayBoy
11-08-2014, 10:18 PM
You could start by spelling his name correctly. I'm sure he'd appreciate that.

:smilielol5:

zeke
11-08-2014, 10:32 PM
funny thing is we all loved him his first year, when he never once showed any of the skill he's shown this year. (and first year Komarov was definitely not worth this contract).

now that he's handling the puck and making plays, he might be a really special player.

MapleLeafBlueJayBoy
11-08-2014, 10:51 PM
Komarov is trending on Twitter.

LeafGm
11-08-2014, 11:00 PM
I think my next jersey's going to be a Komarov jersey.

BeLeafer
11-09-2014, 12:49 AM
You could start by spelling his name correctly. I'm sure he'd appreciate that.

I laughed.

Bleedsblue&white
11-09-2014, 09:14 AM
We finally have a power forward.

WellPlayed
11-09-2014, 10:55 AM
funny thing is we all loved him his first year, when he never once showed any of the skill he's shown this year. (and first year Komarov was definitely not worth this contract).

now that he's handling the puck and making plays, he might be a really special player.


Gotta disagree here. Some of us saw the skill. I thought he was extremely snake bit his first year and consistently had or created chances. The main thing with Komarov is that he's smart. Always in good position, always making smart plays with the puck on his stick. He passed the visual test that first year. Combine that with his excellent production in the KHL, and his bump up in scoring this year doesn't surprise all that much. Although I don't necessarily expect 50 points like he is on pace for, 40+ is definitely doable and fantastic considering the other skills.

BeLeafer
11-09-2014, 11:52 AM
I recall some debating with zeke about him being more than a fourth liner. Isn't that about where you penciled him in again at the start of this season, zeke?

MindzEye
11-09-2014, 12:26 PM
I forget who it was with, but I remember making a bet with someone on Leo getting more than X amount of points this season.

Looking good so far.

BeLeafer
11-09-2014, 12:26 PM
“I’m not the best goal-scorer in this league”

~ Leo

Metalleaf
11-09-2014, 12:30 PM
I've always maintained that Komarov had the skill to be a competent NHLer with some scoring ability. He had 9 points in a 48 game season playing in his first year on North American ice, I think he knew what to expect this year.

MindzEye
11-09-2014, 12:34 PM
I've always maintained that Komarov had the skill to be a competent NHLer with some scoring ability. He had 9 points in a 48 game season playing in his first year on North American ice, I think he knew what to expect this year.

Yeah, that's something that I think was overlooked with his scoring output during his rookie season....it was his rookie season. Complicating matters is the fact that he's not the type of guy who is going to collect points purely on his skill level. He's gotta be in the right place, right time, but he clearly has the IQ for it.

Pronger84
11-09-2014, 12:50 PM
We finally have a power forward.

One big thing is missing his ability to fight... That's imo one of the things holding him back from thst category.

Pronger84
11-09-2014, 12:52 PM
I've memtioned this last night, but the leafs need to make him captain instead of Dion. Guys look up to #47, they feed off his enthusiasm, he does it all out there and take last night for example comes up with a clutch goal to win the game, this guy is the true leader of this team.

Blueman
11-09-2014, 01:13 PM
stop smoking the crack

CTheBigPicture
11-09-2014, 02:16 PM
Here we go again, Toronto fans putting a marginal player on their favorites list, making him look like a 1st overall pick and wanting him to be the face of the team. It's the same thing across all our sports teams. We love our Johnny Mac while other teams get to watch a Trout and Kershaw.

I love having Komarov on the team and love watching him; but I love watching better players more. We should have an appreciation thread for Kessel and demand management to bring more top line players.

As fans we absolutely have to move on from the mindset that promotes mediocrity. Making the playoffs is not good enough. Komarov is not good enough. Etc.

/rant

Artnes
11-09-2014, 02:21 PM
One big thing is missing his ability to fight... That's imo one of the things holding him back from thst category.

No

WellPlayed
11-09-2014, 02:22 PM
Here we go again, Toronto fans putting a marginal player on their favorites list, making him look like a 1st overall pick and wanting him to be the face of the team. It's the same thing across all our sports teams. We love our Johnny Mac while other teams get to watch a Trout and Kershaw.

I love having Komarov on the team and love watching him; but I love watching better players more. We should have an appreciation thread for Kessel and demand management to bring more top line players.

As fans we absolutely have to move on from the mindset that promotes mediocrity. Making the playoffs is not good enough. Komarov is not good enough. Etc.

/rant

Congrats, that post was even dumber than Pronger84's. A rare feat.

MapleLeafBlueJayBoy
11-09-2014, 02:40 PM
Congrats, that post was even dumber than Pronger84's. A rare feat.

:smilielol5:

zeke
11-09-2014, 02:54 PM
I recall some debating with zeke about him being more than a fourth liner. Isn't that about where you penciled him in again at the start of this season, zeke?

absolutely.

and not even for good 4th line production.

Pronger84
11-09-2014, 02:55 PM
[QUOTE=CTheBigPicture;2428087]Here we go again, Toronto fans putting a marginal player on their favorites list, making him look like a 1st overall pick and wanting him to be the face of the team. It's the same thing across all our sports teams. We love our Johnny Mac while other teams get to watch a Trout and Kershaw.

I love having Komarov on the team and love watching him; but I love watching better players more. We should have an appreciation thread for Kessel and demand management to bring more top line players.

As fans we absolutely have to move on from the mindset that promotes mediocrity. Making the playoffs is not good enough. Komarov is not good enough. Etc.

Komorov is more then a marginal player, that would be an Orr or mclaren type you are thinking off. Of course Leo isn't anything close to a 1st line player but to act like he doesn't impact this team is just absurd any which way you want to look at it, when we need a big hit Leo delivers, a big penalty to be killed he's out there, an energy shift to spark players he does that too and he also does have under the radar offensive skills as well.

zeke
11-09-2014, 02:55 PM
Here we go again, Toronto fans putting a marginal player on their favorites list, making him look like a 1st overall pick and wanting him to be the face of the team. It's the same thing across all our sports teams. We love our Johnny Mac while other teams get to watch a Trout and Kershaw.

I love having Komarov on the team and love watching him; but I love watching better players more. We should have an appreciation thread for Kessel and demand management to bring more top line players.

As fans we absolutely have to move on from the mindset that promotes mediocrity. Making the playoffs is not good enough. Komarov is not good enough. Etc.

/rant

truth.

CaptainBolduke
11-09-2014, 02:56 PM
Your favorite player on your favorite team should never be a 3rd or 4th liner.

Pronger84
11-09-2014, 02:57 PM
Komorov is more then a marginal player, that would be an Orr or mclaren type you are thinking off. Of course Leo isn't anything close to a 1st line player but to act like he doesn't impact this team is just absurd any which way you want to look at it, when we need a big hit Leo delivers, a big penalty to be killed he's out there, an energy shift to spark players he does that too and he also does have under the radar offensive skills as well.

Do you even realize how hard it is to acquire a 1st line player these days, I really don't think you grasp the concept. Hardly any team trades their top players, and even fewer let them walk to free agency... Most guys are locked up long term which makes aquiring a top player next to impossible.

Pronger84
11-09-2014, 02:59 PM
Your favorite player on your favorite team should never be a 3rd or 4th liner.

I disagree with that. Domi was a fan fave here for closed to a decade and he was loved by most of the fans, it doesn't matter the position for fans to have their favourite player.

zeke
11-09-2014, 03:00 PM
the other thing to remember is that leo is scoring at the same pace as he did in the khl last year, which probably won't keep up.

Pronger84
11-09-2014, 03:01 PM
the other thing to remember is that leo is scoring at the same pace as he did in the khl last year, which probably won't keep up.

I don't think Leo will ever be a true top 6 player in terms of points but he is the type of player you can throw out their on any line during the game and he'll be effective even excel.. Players like that are a rarity.

CTheBigPicture
11-09-2014, 03:10 PM
I disagree with that. Domi was a fan fave here for closed to a decade and he was loved by most of the fans, it doesn't matter the position for fans to have their favourite player.

Hence my rant. At the same time we had Mats Sundin, a Hall of Famer, at a position that is the hardest in hockey to fill, yet every night we faulted him for something. Oh he isn't a leader, oh he doesn't fight, oh he isn't tough enough, oh this and oh that. Yet Tie Domi's of the world were celebrated to no end.

It's a fundamental issue with Toronto fans. We've been conditioned by the our sports owners who have failed miserably in fielding winning teams.

In reality, the last time you missed watching Tie Domi play hockey should be...."never"!

Pronger84
11-09-2014, 03:13 PM
That was the media who got on sundins case, not the fans I think u have the two confused. Sundin had and still has a lot of fans, I mean offensively the dude was the leafs best forward In franchise history.

CaptainBolduke
11-09-2014, 03:16 PM
I disagree with that. Domi was a fan fave here for closed to a decade and he was loved by most of the fans, it doesn't matter the position for fans to have their favourite player.

An nothing happened during the Domi era either.

Pronger84
11-09-2014, 03:19 PM
An nothing happened during the Domi era either.

What's your point... Leafs haven't won nada since the 60s, so really you can say nothing happend either during the sundin era, the Gilmour era and the sitter era as well.

CTheBigPicture
11-09-2014, 03:19 PM
That was the media who got on sundins case, not the fans I think u have the two confused. Sundin had and still has a lot of fans, I mean offensively the dude was the leafs best forward In franchise history.


Media sure, but fans were always on him. I distinctly remember all those talk radio call ins which I used to listen to when I was in high school. People nagged about Mats every night much like they do with Dion now (which is worse cause Sundin > Dion). The underlying issue may have been that he wasn't a Canadian in that case.

Related personal story: I remember wearing a Mats jersey in high school and the first time our councillor saw me in that jersey his exact words were "Sundin? he is hardly Canadian"! Of course, what made it worse was that he seemed to have forgotten that he was talking to a yet-to-be-Canadian-Citizen immigrant.

Metalleaf
11-09-2014, 03:19 PM
Nope, you sound like Vito from Woodbridge who would call up every week to yell at Andy Frost after Leaf games crying about why Domi should be captain over Sundin. God love Komarov but he is not captain material, neither is Lupul for that matter. There isn't a Leaf on the team that I would have as a captain over Phaneuf.

Pronger84
11-09-2014, 03:20 PM
Don't let the few anti sundin fans give you the perception he wasn't for the most part well liked and respected here in Toronto, for every 10 good seeds there's always one bad one.

Pronger84
11-09-2014, 03:23 PM
Nope, you sound like Vito from Woodbridge who would call up every week to yell at Andy Frost after Leaf games crying about why Domi should be captain over Sundin. God love Komarov but he is not captain material, neither is Lupul for that matter. There isn't a Leaf on the team that I would have as a captain over Phaneuf.

If you want to have phaneuf as your top choice as captain that's your perspective, I'm not going to try to change your stance on that. For me though a captain is someone who is well respected, someone who the players feed off his example, someone who shows up in key situations... Out of everyone on this team my preference is komorov, imo guy is the one everyone admires and follows his example.

Metalleaf
11-09-2014, 03:23 PM
And you are continuing that vicious cycle by claiming a 3rd liner should be captain.

WellPlayed
11-09-2014, 03:24 PM
Hence my rant. At the same time we had Mats Sundin, a Hall of Famer, at a position that is the hardest in hockey to fill, yet every night we faulted him for something. Oh he isn't a leader, oh he doesn't fight, oh he isn't tough enough, oh this and oh that. Yet Tie Domi's of the world were celebrated to no end.

It's a fundamental issue with Toronto fans. We've been conditioned by the our sports owners who have failed miserably in fielding winning teams.

In reality, the last time you missed watching Tie Domi play hockey should be...."never"!

Yes Vito from Woodbridge falls in love with third line grinders. No that is not what is happening on this board. There was some debate over the Komarov signing at the beginning of the year as to whether he was worth it and what kind of numbers he was capable of. So far so good, which explains the thread.

Nobody here thinks he is the team's best player, nobody here enjoys watching him more than one of the top, most electric players in the league. Kessel walks on water around this place, but we can only talk about how awesome he is so much. So your original post is a little strange.

And Pronger does not count.

Metalleaf
11-09-2014, 03:27 PM
If you want to have phaneuf as your top choice as captain that's your perspective, I'm not going to try to change your stance on that. For me though a captain is someone who is well respected, someone who the players feed off his example, someone who shows up in key situations... Out of everyone on this team my preference is komorov, imo guy is the one everyone admires and follows his example.

That's a load of BS, and using "well, its like my opinion" is a cop out. Can you prove that the players don't "look up to Dion"? They seem to like him quite a bit.

CTheBigPicture
11-09-2014, 03:28 PM
IMHO the captain of a team should be on the ice in the last minute of the game 7 of a Stanley Cup run to finish off win #16 (on top of other attributes). On this team it's Dion but he is not ideal for sure as he tires when his minutes get up there and doesn't have the foot speed to win a marathon SC winning game.

Metalleaf
11-09-2014, 03:31 PM
Who does?

CaptainBolduke
11-09-2014, 03:31 PM
All in all, if the favorite player of the majority of fans for a specific team is a 3rd or 4th liner than odds are that team is not a Stanley Cup contender.

Metalleaf
11-09-2014, 03:33 PM
Kessel is the favourite player of a majority of fans in Toronto...but Toronto loves workman like players. Its way Amir Johnson is so popular.

BeLeafer
11-09-2014, 04:05 PM
absolutely.

and not even for good 4th line production.

... because you base everything on stats rather than eye tests. I saw him in his rookie year as worthy of third and second line duties next to two offensive forwards.

Wayward DP
11-09-2014, 04:11 PM
I'd be interested to check the numbers on this, but pretty sure Kadri has never been more productive than when he had Leo on his wing...

KingTucker
11-09-2014, 04:13 PM
If you want to have phaneuf as your top choice as captain that's your perspective, I'm not going to try to change your stance on that. For me though a captain is someone who is well respected, someone who the players feed off his example, someone who shows up in key situations... Out of everyone on this team my preference is komorov, imo guy is the one everyone admires and follows his example.

Phaneuf is fine. We don't need a guy like Leo as our captain; he's an amusing and effective agitating forward and that is all. Kessel would likely be the captain down the road, even with his diffidence toward the media (which is a plus) he is still quite good with the fans. Sundin was an excellent captain despite the media mostly crapping over him until he was gone.

zeke
11-09-2014, 04:13 PM
... because you base everything on stats rather than eye tests. I saw him in his rookie year as worthy of third and second line duties next to two offensive forwards.
congrats.

Pronger84
11-09-2014, 04:48 PM
That's a load of BS, and using "well, its like my opinion" is a cop out. Can you prove that the players don't "look up to Dion"? They seem to like him quite a bit.

I never said anything about the players not looking up to dion, wouldn't be fair to speculate on that given I'm not in the dressing room. All I'm saying is in my opinion which I'm entitled to is I prefer komorov over dion as captain, just as its your opinion that you feel dion is the true captain, again I'm not trying to change your perspective on him.

BeLeafer
11-09-2014, 04:55 PM
congrats.

Thanks. Maybe next time you'll pay more attention.

leafman101
11-09-2014, 05:10 PM
Komarov's numbers were actually pretty good last go around.

Corsi Rel: 4.8
Corsi Rel QoC: 0.781
Off Zone Starts: 43.5%
OnIce Shooting%: 7.28
Shooting%: 7.8%

He was an effective player with a little bit of bad luck scoring with the low shooting percentages. This year his on ice shooting percentage is 10.39, which might be a little unsustainable but was always probably more of a 30-40 point player than a 10-20 point player.

rated
11-09-2014, 05:53 PM
I never said anything about the players not looking up to dion,

Yes you did


For me though a captain is someone who is well respected, someone who the players feed off his example, someone who shows up in key situations...

You're implying that right here.

Maybe choose your words more carefully next time.

Bleedsblue&white
11-09-2014, 05:59 PM
All in all, if the favorite player of the majority of fans for a specific team is a 3rd or 4th liner than odds are that team is not a Stanley Cup contender.

I'm going to go back to ignoring you after this but...just stop. You are so bad at this it's awkwardly uncomfortable, like The Office sometimes.

rated
11-09-2014, 06:06 PM
I'm going to go back to ignoring you after this but...just stop. You are so bad at this it's awkwardly uncomfortable, like The Office sometimes.

he wont ever stop because people keep giving him a reason not to

CaptainBolduke
11-09-2014, 06:13 PM
Again, if your favorite player on your favorite team is a 3rd or 4th liner, your team sucks. Deal with it and move on.

It's like Jonny Mac with the Jays, everyone liked him when the team sucked. Happens a lot in this town.

Leafin'
11-09-2014, 06:53 PM
Again, if your favorite player on your favorite team is a 3rd or 4th liner, your team sucks. Deal with it and move on.

It's like Jonny Mac with the Jays, everyone liked him when the team sucked. Happens a lot in this town.

Thats not always true. Tie Domi was a fan favorite for years. Brad Marchand is a fan favourite in Boston. There are plenty of cases where a 3rd or 4th liner is a fan favorite.

SundinsTooth
11-09-2014, 07:06 PM
Why feed troll?

hockeylover
11-09-2014, 07:08 PM
Yeah, don't bother.

Wayward DP
11-09-2014, 08:53 PM
Yeah, don't bother.

+1

soco22
11-09-2014, 09:30 PM
+1

Why?

He's making a decent point...we celebrate hard working and lower (not without) skilled guys here in Toronto. McCabe, Kaberle, sundin, dion, Kessel (for most his time here) have been ragged on while much shitter players are loved.

Board is dying because people gang up. Anyone notice how quiet it is this year? People leave (player, msun, teeder) and no one replaces them.

Deckie007
11-09-2014, 09:33 PM
I liked PTBNL and mbow but let's not act like teeds leaving was a bad thing. Dude was batshit crazy and monopolized threads talking about his nonsense.

soco22
11-09-2014, 09:41 PM
I liked PTBNL and mbow but let's not act like teeds leaving was a bad thing. Dude was batshit crazy and monopolized threads talking about his nonsense.

Before the bat shit crazy teeder was what I was referring to...

Preston_Mizzi
11-09-2014, 09:47 PM
Everyone does have a bit of an ego on here. Close minded and a know-it-all attitude. No real constructive debates any more. It's more like "you're wrong and I'm not even going to entertain my argument so I'll just be condescending to you."

The Phaneuf debate, for example, is an intriguing one. On this board though, if you say a negative word about Phaneuf, you're a moron and know nothing about hockey. Personally, I think it's an intriguing debate that I am more towards the middle on. I see arguments for both sides.. it doesn't always have to be black or white.

LeafGm
11-09-2014, 09:49 PM
Why?

He's making a decent point...we celebrate hard working and lower (not without) skilled guys here in Toronto. McCabe, Kaberle, sundin, dion, Kessel (for most his time here) have been ragged on while much shitter players are loved.

Board is dying because people gang up. Anyone notice how quiet it is this year? People leave (player, msun, teeder) and no one replaces them.
Who's "we", though? Other than Pronger, who does that post really apply to around here?

This board was never a bastion of support for the idea that Domi should be the captain instead of Sundin, and prior to him becoming an automatic top-10 scorer, this board was pretty much the only group of hockey/Leaf fans I encountered that didn't shit all over the Kessel trade and pine for Seguin.

This was just a silly thread posted to celebrate a great game by one of our supporting players, and then CTheBigPicture came in and sort of shat all over it for some reason.

Deckie007
11-09-2014, 09:52 PM
Before the bat shit crazy teeder was what I was referring to...

I've been posting here for three years, so that guy never existed as far as I'm concerned. First thing I thought when I started visiting here was "who is this wingnut"?

I do miss Player though.

Deckie007
11-09-2014, 09:53 PM
Who's "we", though? Other than Pronger, who does that post really apply to around here?

This board was never a bastion of support for the idea that Domi should be the captain instead of Sundin, and prior to him becoming an automatic top-10 scorer, this board was pretty much the only group of hockey/Leaf fans I encountered that didn't shit all over the Kessel trade and pine for Seguin.

This was just a silly thread posted to celebrate a great game by one of our supporting players, and then CTheBigPicture came in and sort of shat all over it for some reason.

Yeah this. Got taken way too seriously.

Metalleaf
11-09-2014, 09:54 PM
Not allowed to have nice things.

Habspatrol
11-09-2014, 09:55 PM
There's nothing wrong with appreciating the unsung heroes.

Metalleaf
11-09-2014, 09:57 PM
Especially when they are as interesting a character as Komarov is.

Metalleaf
11-09-2014, 10:01 PM
https://31.media.tumblr.com/a738acbcf2279753aaa73251353705b6/tumblr_mepo3df6jo1qzswhmo1_250.gif

Metalleaf
11-09-2014, 10:02 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MK_pwORZBs

Metalleaf
11-09-2014, 10:04 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2LI2FaOEA4

hockeylover
11-09-2014, 10:07 PM
Why?

He's making a decent point...we celebrate hard working and lower (not without) skilled guys here in Toronto. McCabe, Kaberle, sundin, dion, Kessel (for most his time here) have been ragged on while much shitter players are loved.

Board is dying because people gang up. Anyone notice how quiet it is this year? People leave (player, msun, teeder) and no one replaces them.

Huh? That wasn't his point though.

His point was just that if people love a third liner, the Leafs must really suck. He said it three times, in three nearly identical posts.

If we're actually having a conversation about how skilled guys are typically underappreciated in this city, by all means - I totally agree. Although this board in particular has never been shy about appreciating all those players ie Our One-Balled Overlord, etc.

Metalleaf
11-09-2014, 10:17 PM
http://photos-d.ak.instagram.com/hphotos-ak-xaf1/10809010_645207765588995_429486767_n.jpg

CTheBigPicture
11-09-2014, 10:38 PM
Who's "we", though? Other than Pronger, who does that post really apply to around here?

This board was never a bastion of support for the idea that Domi should be the captain instead of Sundin, and prior to him becoming an automatic top-10 scorer, this board was pretty much the only group of hockey/Leaf fans I encountered that didn't shit all over the Kessel trade and pine for Seguin.

This was just a silly thread posted to celebrate a great game by one of our supporting players, and then CTheBigPicture came in and sort of shat all over it for some reason.

I didn't say a word till it was mentioned that we needed to make him the captain!

Leafin'
11-09-2014, 10:54 PM
If they ever move Phaneuf, Kessel for captain.

Wayward DP
11-09-2014, 11:15 PM
Why?

He's making a decent point...we celebrate hard working and lower (not without) skilled guys here in Toronto. McCabe, Kaberle, sundin, dion, Kessel (for most his time here) have been ragged on while much shitter players are loved.

Board is dying because people gang up. Anyone notice how quiet it is this year? People leave (player, msun, teeder) and no one replaces them.

I deem very few posters here as worthy of my ignore list (I think I have three or four over all the years), Bolduke happens to be one of them.

Wayward DP
11-09-2014, 11:17 PM
I didn't say a word till it was mentioned that we needed to make him the captain!

Beware the P84 effect I guess

BeLeafer
11-09-2014, 11:42 PM
The Phaneuf debate, for example, is an intriguing one. On this board though, if you say a negative word about Phaneuf, you're a moron and know nothing about hockey. Personally, I think it's an intriguing debate that I am more towards the middle on. I see arguments for both sides.. it doesn't always have to be black or white.

Well, that's not entirely true. There was a pretty good debate in the Rangers thread on this. Yes, there may have been some heretics burned at the stake, but if you post reasonable arguments you can see good things happen ... like zeke doing some shameless cherry picking!

Wayward DP
11-10-2014, 12:15 AM
Everyone does have a bit of an ego on here. Close minded and a know-it-all attitude. No real constructive debates any more. It's more like "you're wrong and I'm not even going to entertain my argument so I'll just be condescending to you."

The Phaneuf debate, for example, is an intriguing one. On this board though, if you say a negative word about Phaneuf, you're a moron and know nothing about hockey. Personally, I think it's an intriguing debate that I am more towards the middle on. I see arguments for both sides.. it doesn't always have to be black or white.

This board is pretty divided over Phaneuf. Not sure how that example helps illustrate your argument, if anything its the opposite really. There has been an ongoing debate about his value and contributions.

Pronger84
11-10-2014, 02:35 AM
Everyone does have a bit of an ego on here. Close minded and a know-it-all attitude. No real constructive debates any more. It's more like "you're wrong and I'm not even going to entertain my argument so I'll just be condescending to you."

The Phaneuf debate, for example, is an intriguing one. On this board though, if you say a negative word about Phaneuf, you're a moron and know nothing about hockey. Personally, I think it's an intriguing debate that I am more towards the middle on. I see arguments for both sides.. it doesn't always have to be black or white.

Have to agree with you on that! There's some knowledgable posters on here who are open minded but there's a lot of others set in their ways who feel they are right and if you have a differing opinion then your automatically wrong. Personally I like hearing what everyone has to say even if I don't agree with it, it does offer up a different perspective and way of engaging.

As for dion, I think he's an average top pairing defencmen who would be on the first pairing on most rosters, he has his strengths (durability, defensive intelligence, psyhicality, ability to lug the puck up ice) but he has his serious warts too (sluggish on his turns, gets beat wide often, lazy when it comes to taking the man in front of the net)

LeafOfFaith
11-10-2014, 03:39 AM
Komarov is the best. The intangibles on overdrive plus unexpected offense. Steal of a deal in retrospect.

JackBurton
11-10-2014, 08:16 AM
Everyone does have a bit of an ego on here. Close minded and a know-it-all attitude. No real constructive debates any more. It's more like "you're wrong and I'm not even going to entertain my argument so I'll just be condescending to you."

The Phaneuf debate, for example, is an intriguing one. On this board though, if you say a negative word about Phaneuf, you're a moron and know nothing about hockey. Personally, I think it's an intriguing debate that I am more towards the middle on. I see arguments for both sides.. it doesn't always have to be black or white.

The one issue on this board is if you knock Phaneuf, you get tossed in with the radio knuckle-draggers that rag on him and want him traded. There can be an in-between.

leaffan2005
11-10-2014, 09:11 AM
My biggest issue with him is his hockey IQ. He just flat out makes stupid decisions on the ice, whether its a bad pinch, taking the wrong angle on an incoming winger, etc. He has also regressed in the physicality department, especially in front of the net where guys just chill when we are on the PK unabated.

He did play a good game last night, though, but these have been far and few between since inking his extension last year.

Preston_Mizzi
11-10-2014, 10:55 AM
The one issue on this board is if you knock Phaneuf, you get tossed in with the radio knuckle-draggers that rag on him and want him traded. There can be an in-between.
Yeah, that's exactly it.

He's allowed to be a very good defensman. He doesn't have to be elite. I think he's a top 30 d, but probably more in the 25-30 range. Which is fine.. he's in pretty awesome company. But on this board a statement as innocent as that gets knocked violently. It's outrageous to think that apparently.

MindzEye
11-10-2014, 11:10 AM
Yeah, that's exactly it.

He's allowed to be a very good defensman. He doesn't have to be elite. I think he's a top 30 d, but probably more in the 25-30 range. Which is fine.. he's in pretty awesome company. But on this board a statement as innocent as that gets knocked violently. It's outrageous to think that apparently.
Because nobody here who makes a statement like that has ever named 25 defenders better than dion without getting into names that are ridiculously and demonstrably wrong. Feel free to give it a whirl.


What I'm seeing here is people crying over others making them have to support their opinion. ....the nerve of some people, eh?

BeLeafer
11-10-2014, 11:11 AM
Of course, the hive only rules the place if you let them. I'm not too sympathetic to complaints from people who make little or no effort to push back. I understand how annoying and frustrating this shit can be, believe me.

Then again, if you decide it's not worth the effort, such is life. The forum will be the worse off for it.

LeafGm
11-10-2014, 11:14 AM
I didn't say a word till it was mentioned that we needed to make him the captain!
Hey dude, I understand the rage-inducing nature of his posts. I think we can safely say that you got Pronger'd.

But just remember that on matters such as "Komarov should be the captain", P84 doesn't even speak for the minority around here, he speaks only for himself. So there isn't really a need to lecture the whole board on appreciating the talents of our best players, when the likes of Sundin and Kessel have gotten more love around here than they ever would get with the average fan, on talk radio or in the newspaper.


Yeah, that's exactly it.

He's allowed to be a very good defensman. He doesn't have to be elite. I think he's a top 30 d, but probably more in the 25-30 range. Which is fine.. he's in pretty awesome company. But on this board a statement as innocent as that gets knocked violently. It's outrageous to think that apparently.
Meh, I wouldn't describe Phaneuf as elite either. Just inside our own division, there are four defensemen that I'd say are better #1 guys (Victor Hedman, P.K. Subban, Erik Karlsson, Niklas Kronwall). You could also argue for Zdeno Chara, but I kind of feel that at his size and age, his play's going to fall off a cliff any time now.

"Good #1 defenseman" would be how I'd describe Phaneuf, though I don't think he's looked his best so far this season.

Preston_Mizzi
11-10-2014, 11:17 AM
I'll do a list later. It's just that there are so many better d than Phaneuf, it'll take awhile.

I'll come up with a list, everyone will gang up on me for my stupid choices, and the hockey elitists will win once again.

LeafGm
11-10-2014, 11:23 AM
I'll do a list later. It's just that there are so many better d than Phaneuf, it'll take awhile.

I'll come up with a list, everyone will gang up on me for my stupid choices, and the hockey elitists will win once again.
Doug? Doug Ford? Is that you?

SundinsTooth
11-10-2014, 11:24 AM
I'll do a list later. It's just that there are so many better d than Phaneuf, it'll take awhile.

I'll come up with a list, everyone will gang up on me for my stupid choices, and the hockey elitists will win once again.

Nice victim card you've got there. Well played.

leafman101
11-10-2014, 11:24 AM
Yeah, if there was a good argument for Phaneuf not being a legit #1 dmen people would be making that argument, instead of complaining about the responses (which as far as I can tell consisted primarily of advanced stats and not personal attacks, but lets not let facts get in the way).

zeke
11-10-2014, 11:25 AM
evidence-based criticism would be welcome.

Preston_Mizzi
11-10-2014, 11:26 AM
In no order:
1. Weber
2. Chara
3. Keith
4. Suter
5. Karlsson
6. Pietrangelo
7. Subban
8. McDonagh
9. Giordano
10. Hedman
11. OEL
12. Vlasic
13. Letang
14. Kronwall
15. JBO
16. Seabrook
17. Hamhuis
18. Yandle
19. Doughty
20. Brodie
21. Carlson
22. Stralman
23. Edler

He's in the Edler/Brodie/Carlson/Stralman tier. Although if Stralman and Brodie keep this up, they're better.

So maybe not 25-30.. probably more 20-30. #1 in the true sense of the word, but definitely not an ideal 1. Below average for sure.

leafman101
11-10-2014, 11:27 AM
"A below average" number 1 defenseman is still one of the best 30 defensemen in the NHL.

I'm not sure of the value of that criticism.

Preston_Mizzi
11-10-2014, 11:28 AM
I know. I'm not saying Phaneuf sucks. You guys get so defensive.

leafman101
11-10-2014, 11:29 AM
I know. I'm not saying Phaneuf sucks. You guys get so defensive.

So what are you arguing that is upsetting you so much then? No one is saying he should win the Norris.

he is one of the best defensemen in the league. We all agree. Great.

BeLeafer
11-10-2014, 11:32 AM
I'm not sure of the value of that criticism.

That could be your motto.

If he's not the stud that many make him out to be, but just a bottom tier number one, it might help to identify a need. That's the value of the criticism.

BG
11-10-2014, 11:34 AM
In no order:
1. Weber
2. Chara
3. Keith
4. Suter
5. Karlsson
6. Pietrangelo
7. Subban
8. McDonagh
9. Giordano
10. Hedman
11. OEL
12. Vlasic
13. Letang
14. Kronwall
15. JBO
16. Seabrook
17. Hamhuis
18. Yandle
19. Doughty
20. Brodie
21. Carlson
22. Stralman
23. Edler

He's in the Edler/Brodie/Carlson/Stralman tier. Although if Stralman and Brodie keep this up, they're better.

So maybe not 25-30.. probably more 20-30. #1 in the true sense of the word, but definitely not an ideal 1. Below average for sure.

Just out of curiosity, would you say that guys like Vlasic/Hamhuis/Stralman/Edler/Brodie would look good as a #1 on the Leafs?

leafman101
11-10-2014, 11:40 AM
That could be your motto.

If he's not the stud that many make him out to be, but just a bottom tier number one, it might help to identify a need. That's the value of the criticism.

Oh gee, thanks for identifying that the Leafs could use a Drew Doughty. Who do you guys think you are arguing with exactly?

Btw, I really like this "bottom tier number one" to portray one of the top dmen in the league in a negative context.

hockeylover
11-10-2014, 11:40 AM
The numbered, tiered, but also no order list kinda throws me off.

zeke
11-10-2014, 11:46 AM
When's the last time you saw Edler play?

leafman101
11-10-2014, 11:49 AM
Lets be honest here. If when you try really hard you can only come up with a list of 23 players that might be better than Phaneuf, some of which everyone can admit are debatable, Phaneuf is pretty damn good. Its pretty rare that a top 25-30 player at their position would be a problem for their team in any way.

LeafGm
11-10-2014, 12:09 PM
Oh gee, thanks for identifying that the Leafs could use a Drew Doughty. Who do you guys think you are arguing with exactly?

Btw, I really like this "bottom tier number one" to portray one of the top dmen in the league in a negative context.
I guess one argument you could make is that in a salary capped league, it's a problem that Phaneuf is the 5th highest paid defenseman in the league if he's only the 25th-30th best.

But since, going forward, any defenseman remotely comparable to Phaneuf is likely going to get $7M (at minimum) when their contract is up (particularly if they're approaching UFA), I don't really have much of an issue with Dion's compensation. By the mid-way point of his deal, Phaneuf's cap hit will be decidedly middle-of-the-pack among top defenseman.

I mean, just look at this summer. Mere months after we signed Dion to his deal, P.K. Subban set a new standard for #1 defensemen by getting $9M per season long term. And Brooks Orpik got $5.5M per season this summer on a long-term deal. Brooks ****ing Orpik.

hockeylover
11-10-2014, 12:17 PM
That could be your motto.

If he's not the stud that many make him out to be, but just a bottom tier number one, it might help to identify a need. That's the value of the criticism.

Let's say you're right and he is a "bottom tier number one". What do you propose is done about it? What do we need to do then?

BeLeafer
11-10-2014, 12:31 PM
Let's say you're right and he is a "bottom tier number one". What do you propose is done about it? What do we need to do then?

See, now that's a good question about this assessment and should be for a good debate. I think that will take some time to consider. I'll give it some thought and get back on it (work day and all).

Preston_Mizzi
11-10-2014, 12:33 PM
Just out of curiosity, would you say that guys like Vlasic/Hamhuis/Stralman/Edler/Brodie would look good as a #1 on the Leafs?
About the same level as Phaneuf. So they'd look fine, but not ideal.

Preston_Mizzi
11-10-2014, 12:34 PM
The numbered, tiered, but also no order list kinda throws me off.

I numbered them for counting purposes. They're in no order. I just listed them off the top of my head as I remembered them.. obviously I'm going to remember the top guys first.

Preston_Mizzi
11-10-2014, 12:34 PM
When's the last time you saw Edler play?

About a week ago. He's been better this year. Similar flaws as Phaneuf actually.

gilmour93forever
11-10-2014, 12:35 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MK_pwORZBs

Clarkson on Johnson... Errrrrrr, what??

hockeylover
11-10-2014, 12:37 PM
Let's say you're right and he is a "bottom tier number one". What do you propose is done about it? What do we need to do then?

Same question to Preston.

Preston_Mizzi
11-10-2014, 12:37 PM
The only issue is that it's very very hard to be an elite team without a top 10 defensman. That's all. I'm not saying Phaneuf is bad, or that he is a problem. I just think his support has to be really really good to ever be an elite team. Possible, but it won't be easy.

As for what we do about it? Wait for Rielly to develop.

hockeylover
11-10-2014, 12:40 PM
I think most of the actual Phaneuf haters reveal themselves as such when they suggest we should trade Phaneuf for a collection of lesser defensemen.

It's too bad we couldn't have traded for JBo when he was available.

Habspatrol
11-10-2014, 12:45 PM
In no order:
1. Weber
2. Chara
3. Keith
4. Suter
5. Karlsson
6. Pietrangelo
7. Subban
8. McDonagh
9. Giordano
10. Hedman
11. OEL
12. Vlasic
13. Letang
14. Kronwall
15. JBO
16. Seabrook
17. Hamhuis
18. Yandle
19. Doughty
20. Brodie
21. Carlson
22. Stralman
23. Edler

He's in the Edler/Brodie/Carlson/Stralman tier. Although if Stralman and Brodie keep this up, they're better.

So maybe not 25-30.. probably more 20-30. #1 in the true sense of the word, but definitely not an ideal 1. Below average for sure.

Vlasic
Brodie
Carlson
Stralman
Edler
Hamhuis

I take Dion over these guys without question and only Brodie and Carlson could potentially pass him by the end of the season. J-Bo and Seabrook are probably the same level as Dion while Chara is fading fast. And Markov belongs in the group with Dion, J-Bo and Seabrook.

hockeylover
11-10-2014, 12:47 PM
I take Dion over these guys without question and only Brodie and Carlson could potentially pass him by the end of the season. J-Bo and Seabrook are probably the same level as Dion while Chara is fading fast.


Vlasic
Brodie
Carlson
Stralman
Edler
Hamhuis

I'm with you.

Metalleaf
11-10-2014, 12:51 PM
That would put Dion into the top 15 which is where he probably should be.

gilmour93forever
11-10-2014, 12:51 PM
Here's my take on the Phaneuf thing. You have your all-around #1 dmen, your elite scorers from the blueline and your shut-down guys. For example:

All-Around #1 Dmen
Shea Weber
Duncan Keith
Drew Doughty
Ryan Suter
PK Subban
...
..
.

Elite Blueline Scorers
Erik Karlsson
Kris Letang
TJ Brodie
Brent Burns
Kevin Shattenkirk
...
..
.

Shutdown Guys
Jay Bouwmeester
MA Vlasic
Dan Girardi
Slava Voynov
Francois Beauchemin
...
..
.

And the thing is, Phaneuf fits into the all-around defenseman portion, but not at an elite level. So we think he SHOULD be because he has more tools than the other guys, but can't put it all together.

Which I think ties in to why we truly HATE the defensemen that falls into this mould like we did with McCabe, but then a guy who has his defensive shortcomings like a Kaberle get a pass. We never expect Kaberle to be THAT GREAT in his own zone, just to score 40-50 points and anchor the PP and make a great breakout pass. He was an Elite Blueline Scorer and we knew that.

But everyone in Toronto thinks Phaneuf could be that #1 Elite Dman, even if he'll always be a second-tier guy in that mould.

Metalleaf
11-10-2014, 12:53 PM
Subban is an "all-around" defender my ass.

leafman101
11-10-2014, 12:58 PM
If you want to be a dynasty, elite, multiple cup wining team than you need to have a Doughty or Keith. Most of the cup winners since the last lockout have had a guy like that. Really Carolina (Glenn Wesley) and Pittsburgh (Letang) are the only teams to win cups that haven't had the elite #1 dman that plays 30 minutes a night.

That said, if the Leafs ever get to a point where Phaneuf is the second best defenseman on the team, they will likely have a hell of a team.

The best chance for that to happen is Rielly developing. Probably the only chance of that happening really.

Metalleaf
11-10-2014, 12:59 PM
I think Ehrhoff would be good with Dion, but he's gonna get paid next offseason.

gilmour93forever
11-10-2014, 01:05 PM
If you want to be a dynasty, elite, multiple cup wining team than you need to have a Doughty or Keith. Most of the cup winners since the last lockout have had a guy like that. Really Carolina (Glenn Wesley) and Pittsburgh (Letang) are the only teams to win cups that haven't had the elite #1 dman that plays 30 minutes a night.

That said, if the Leafs ever get to a point where Phaneuf is the second best defenseman on the team, they will likely have a hell of a team.

The best chance for that to happen is Rielly developing. Probably the only chance of that happening really.

It's funny, as I was thinking about this in relation to my previous post. I would almost rather have an elite-level shutdown guy with Rielly than Phaneuf and whoever else will go with him. Say for example you could get a guy like Girardi out of NYR and pair him with Rielly --- while Girardi isn't as good as Phaneuf is overall --- I think that top-pair would outweigh what Rielly-Phaneuf is.

Either that or find the player X that is the Kaberle to Phaneuf's McCabe. Enstrom??

LeafGm
11-10-2014, 01:11 PM
Dan Girardi? Jesus Christ.

If Dan Girardi was a Maple Leaf, and making $5.5M for the next six years, the amount of sheer, unadulterated hatred the guy would get would make Dion Phaneuf seem like a universal fan favourite by comparison.

BeLeafer
11-10-2014, 01:14 PM
Let's say you're right and he is a "bottom tier number one". What do you propose is done about it? What do we need to do then?

Okay, I've done some thinking on this.

My answer is do nothing but continue to develop the talent they have behind Phaneuf. I start from the idea that the basic strategy the Leafs are using is to not do anything to disrupt the long-term need to develop a solid pipeline, avoid trading youth/futures for vets/established players, and certainly don't make moves to simply make the playoffs/save face/ass.

I personally believe that Rielly will be the guy that will balance out our top pairing with Phaneuf over the next two to three years. Rielly will develop, imo, into a better player than Dion and help establish that pairing as one of the better ones in the league. If that doesn't happen, then you start to look elsewhere.

There's also others in the blueline pipeline that could emerge as viable top pairing guys.

So, unless management loses their minds and thinks the Leafs could go for it, there's no point in upgrading that top pairing for the foreseeable future.

Metalleaf
11-10-2014, 01:19 PM
Dan Girardi? Jesus Christ.

If Dan Girardi was a Maple Leaf, and making $5.5M for the next six years, the amount of sheer, unadulterated hatred the guy would get would make Dion Phaneuf seem like a universal fan favourite by comparison.

I'd say pretty much 80% of Preston's list would be subject to the same endless criticism that Dion deals with now.

gilmour93forever
11-10-2014, 01:23 PM
Dan Girardi? Jesus Christ.

If Dan Girardi was a Maple Leaf, and making $5.5M for the next six years, the amount of sheer, unadulterated hatred the guy would get would make Dion Phaneuf seem like a universal fan favourite by comparison.

Girardi is worse overall than Phaneuf, yes.
Girardi would compliment Rielly better, yes.
Rielly is going to be better than Phaneuf, yes.

Girardi-Rielly is better than Phaneuf-Rielly, though the sum of the parts may be worse? IMO yes.

hockeylover
11-10-2014, 01:24 PM
Girardi is worse overall than Phaneuf, yes.
Girardi would compliment Rielly better, yes.
Rielly is going to be better than Phaneuf, yes.

Girardi-Rielly is better than Phaneuf-Rielly, though the sum of the parts may be worse? IMO yes.

What's this based on, just curious?

Metalleaf
11-10-2014, 01:28 PM
Probably the fact they've paired Rielly with Robidas or Polak so far this season.

gilmour93forever
11-10-2014, 01:32 PM
What's this based on, just curious?

Fair question. I probably should have wrote IMO for everything, however I think you typically see a steadier presence with your more offensive-minded guy to steady the pair. Hence a guy like Brooks Orpik with John Carlson in Washington. Let's the young offensive guy do his thing a little more freely with a little safety net of the calming force as a partner. Same thing with Karlsson when he first started with Phillips.

I think that steadier guy as a partner would allow Rielly a little more carte-blanche to do his thing offensively.

zeke
11-10-2014, 01:34 PM
I do like the fact that you picked a few guys with hot starts this year to say are comarable to dion, though.


12-13 to 13-14

Phaneuf (29): 24:07, 11gl/38ptpc ---- 5v5cl: 21.9oz%, 34.9dz%, 40.2cf%, -4.9rel, 7gl/20ptpc --- PK: 2:49, 104.4ca/60 --- PP: 3:07, 96.0cf/60, 3gl/17ptpc
Carlson (24): 23:54, 10gl/37ptpc ---- 5v5cl: 29.9oz%, 31.1dz%, 46.6cf%, -1.6rel, 7gl/20ptpc --- PK: 3:06, 118.3ca/60 --- PP: 2:39, 89.1cf/60, 3gl/17ptpc
Edler (28): 23:31, 11gl/33ptpc ------ 5v5cl: 32.7oz%, 30.1dz%, 53.7cf%, +1.8rel, 5gl/17ptpc --- PK: 2:00, 79.4ca/60 ---- PP: 3:04, 104.6cf/60, 7gl17ptpc
Stralman (28): 18:54, 3gl/13ptpc --- 5v5cl: 33.1oz%, 28.1dz%, 57.3cf%, +6.4rel, 3gl/13ptpc ---- PK: 1:21, 77.4ca/60 ---- PP: 0:34, 79.8cf/60, 0gl/0ptpc

So over the last two years, we see that Phaneuf is the only one of the four to be used as a #1 defenseman - a) used for top minutes in all situations, and b) used in heavy defensive matchups at even strength.

Carlson is the closest to this usage, as he played top minutes in all situations, but he was not used to matchup against other teams' top lines at even strength like Phaneuf.

On the PP, we see that Phaneuf, Carlson, and Edler are all pretty similar. They all get top PP minutes and all produce at the same rate.

On the PK, we see that only Phaneuf and Carlson get top PP minutes. Of the two, phaneuf seems to be significantly more effective in preventing corsi events against. Stralman and Edler play limited 2nd pair minutes but to their credit have been very effective in those minutes.

At even strength, we can see that Phaneuf faced a ridiculously heavy defensive usage compared to the others. Carlson had a fairly even usage, while Stralman and Edler had a very light usage. Despite his extreme lack of offensive zone starts, Phaneuf still managed to match or better the others' offensive production at even strength. His CF% was poor, but given the evidence we have this year it seems pretty clear that his extreme usage was the culprit.

Over the last 2 years, Phaneuf is clearly a step up (or more) from these other three defensemen.


14/15

Phaneuf (29): 23:20, 6gl/33ptpc --- 5v5cl: 28.8oz%, 34.6dz%, 50.7cf%, +1.7rel, 0gl/6ptpc --- PK: 2:51, 112.2ca/60 --- PP: 2:38, 106.8cf/60, 6gl/27ptpc
Carlson (24): 23:12, 12gl/64ptpc --- 5v5cl: 34.1oz%, 31.7dz%, 51.4cf%, -4.0rel, 6gl/41ptpc --- PK: 2:57, 112.9ca/60 --- PP: 2:03, 122.8cf/60, 6gl/23pt pace
Edler (28): 23:20, 15gl/37ptpc ----- 5v5cl: 29.3oz%, 28.7dz%, 53.9cf%, -4.6rel, 0gl/21ptpc --- PK: 2:41, 87.8ca/60 ---- PP: 3:01, 93.3cf/60, 15gl/15ptpc
Stralman (28): 22:27, 11gl/55ptpc - 5v5cl: 25.9oz%, 26.8dz%, 55.9cf%, +3.2rel, 6gl/44ptpc -- PK: 2:21, 103.6ca/60 ---- PP: 2:35, 79.8cf/60, 6gl/11ptpc

Carlson and Edler and are still seeing fairly easy matchups at even strength, but still have seen a big fall in corsi relative to their teammates. On the other hand, Carlson and ZStralman have seen massive jumps in ES production this year, though that's probably not sustainable. Stralman is also interesting here as he's faced much tougher competition and many more minutes than previous years yet is still showing very strong possession numbers. Edler seems to have jumped up a PK unit and is doing well there so far. Stralman's up a PK unit as well but not doing as well. He's also getting top PP minutes for the first time but not exactly lighting it up there.

Still, though, none of them face the usage that Dion does at even strength. And now that Dion's usage is just "very tough" instead of "ridiculously insane" we see that his corsi numbers have jumped right up, matching the others despite having much tougher usage than them still. Dion's also ripping it up on the PP though his offense has dried up at ES so far.

It's nice to see Dion getting somewhat reasonable usage this year, even if it's very tough usage, because it seems like we finally now are getting a decent read on what his possession numbers should look like.

Those guys look a bit closer to Dion this year, but still not as good.

zeke
11-10-2014, 01:49 PM
Dan Girardi? Jesus Christ.

If Dan Girardi was a Maple Leaf, and making $5.5M for the next six years, the amount of sheer, unadulterated hatred the guy would get would make Dion Phaneuf seem like a universal fan favourite by comparison.

Indeed. He's their Komisarek.

Minimum 100 5v5 minutes:

NYR 5v5

Moore: 56.9cf%
McDonagh: 52.3cf%
Hunwick: 51.6cf%
Staal: 50.2cf%
Klein: 49.3cf%
Girardi: 48.4cf%

NYR 5v5 close

Moore: 62.3cf%
McDonagh: 52.3cf%
Hunwick: 50.9cf%
Klein: 50.7cf%
Girardi: 50.0cf%
Staal: 48.0cf%

NYR 5v5 zone adjusted

Moore: 56.2cf%
McDonagh: 52.6cf%
Staal: 50.9cf%
Hunwick: 50.8cf%
Klein: 50.3cf%
Girardi: 47.9cf%

NYR 5v5 close zone adjusted

Moore: 61.0cf%
McDonagh: 53.2cf%
Klein: 51.2cf%
Girardi: 49.1cf%
Hunwick: 48.9cf%
Staal: 48.6cf%


Girardi is like a Roman Polak who can't skate.


and unlike with Staal (who was good in previous years), this isn't anything new this year for Girardi.

12/13-13/14:

ZoneAdjusted 5v5 Close

Stralman +7.2crel
Staal +3.0
mcDonagh -0.2
Moore -2.3
Girardi -2.8
Klein -2.9

ZoneAdjusted 5v5

Stralman +6.9
Staal +1.3
McDonagh +1.0
Moore -1.0
Klein -3.0
Girardi -3.6

5v5 close

Stralman +6.4crel
Staal +2.6crel
McDonagh -0.3crel
Moore -1.4crel
Klein -2.2crel
Girardi -2.6crel

5v5

Stralman +6.3
Staal +0.9
McDonagh +0.7
Moore -0.4
Klein -2.8
Girardi -3.5

Leafin'
11-10-2014, 03:44 PM
Subban is an "all-around" defender my ass.

LOL exactly what i thought as i was reading.

Subban definitely belongs in the "elite blue line scorers" list.

Habspatrol
11-10-2014, 03:48 PM
I wouldn't call it laughable. Subban still gets caught up ice on his pinches from time to time and by all means he has flubs in his zone when he tries to do too much, but he's very good at defending in his zone. 1 on 1 or 2 on 1 he's as good as most.

Leafin'
11-10-2014, 03:51 PM
I wouldn't call it laughable. Subban still gets caught up ice on his pinches from time to time and by all means he has flubs in his zone when he tries to do too much, but he's very good at defending in his zone. 1 on 1 or 2 on 1 he's as good as most.

I was more laughing at the post, then Subban being on the list.

Subban is a great hockey player, but he is most likely not top5 on the all around defenseman list. Atleast not in my eyes.

Habspatrol
11-10-2014, 03:55 PM
I was more laughing at the post, then Subban being on the list.

Subban is a great hockey player, but he is most likely not top5 on the all around defenseman list. Atleast not in my eyes.

Fair enough. I'd say he's top 5ish... but as a Hab fan I suspect there's a bias.

Metalleaf
11-10-2014, 03:57 PM
Subban is great offensive player and he's better than Karlsson in his own end, but he's not in the Suter category IMO.

Leafin'
11-10-2014, 04:04 PM
Fair enough. I'd say he's top 5ish... but as a Hab fan I suspect there's a bias.

I would gladly take Toronto boy PK Subban on the Leafs any day. I was hoping you guys would screw up during the contract situation and he'd get frustrated and leave.

Though him being black, not speaking french and playing for Montreal there is still hope they f*ck it up. At 9 million, i don't think it would take much for people to get sour on him.

JackBurton
11-10-2014, 04:13 PM
I did love what I saw of Subban in the playoffs last year. He looked fantastic.

Habspatrol
11-10-2014, 04:16 PM
Yeah that was probably his best hockey to date. He was awesome.

Deckie007
11-10-2014, 04:19 PM
Fair enough. I'd say he's top 5ish... but as a Hab fan I suspect there's a bias.

I suspect you're right. :lol

Love PK though...his offensive ability makes him 5-10 ish imo.

LeafOfFaith
11-10-2014, 04:20 PM
He should've been a forward. Guy has no clue with it comes to D and is so easily thrown off his game.

Deckie007
11-10-2014, 04:22 PM
He should've been a forward. Guy has no clue with it comes to D and is so easily thrown off his game.

Don't have kids.

LeafOfFaith
11-10-2014, 05:21 PM
And why should you? Where would you find someone to mate with?

Deckie007
11-10-2014, 05:23 PM
And why should you? Where would you find someone to mate with?

Your mom's house?

LeafOfFaith
11-10-2014, 05:24 PM
She rented that out to some disease-ridden gay guy a long time ago.

Still don't see how you'd procreate.

Deckie007
11-10-2014, 05:29 PM
Not sure why you needed to specify the gay part, but whatever. Anyway, if your hockey opinions are genetic, don't have kids.

MindzEye
11-10-2014, 06:11 PM
In no order:
1. Weber
2. Chara
3. Keith
4. Suter
5. Karlsson
6. Pietrangelo
7. Subban
8. McDonagh
9. Giordano
10. Hedman
11. OEL
12. Vlasic
13. Letang
14. Kronwall
15. JBO
16. Seabrook
17. Hamhuis
18. Yandle
19. Doughty
20. Brodie
21. Carlson
22. Stralman
23. Edler

He's in the Edler/Brodie/Carlson/Stralman tier. Although if Stralman and Brodie keep this up, they're better.

So maybe not 25-30.. probably more 20-30. #1 in the true sense of the word, but definitely not an ideal 1. Below average for sure.

This is about exactly what I expected...a bad list, with a bunch of defenders that are equal to Phaneuf in one facet of the position, but not as good in others getting love they don't deserve because Toronto fans don't see their **** ups 82 times a season. With a few flavour of the month picks (Stralman...lol, Brodie) thrown in with guys who have never been legit #1 defenders on any team they've played on (Stralman again...lol, Hamhuis, Vlasic, Edler)

There's no reasonable analysis that places Edler, Stralman, Carlson, Hamhuis, Seabrook, JBO, & Vlasic ahead of Phaneuf. Then a lot of your list has guys who finally looked like legit #1 defenders for a season (McDonagh, Hedman, Giordano) being given a pass, assuming that this is just the level of player that they are (When Phaneuf has been at that level of play or higher in the somewhat recent past as well).

There seems to be a lot of Phaneuf Phatigue here. Where other very similar defenders are just assumed to be better than Dion, because you're sick of seeing Dion.

MyNameIsJonas
11-10-2014, 06:21 PM
And why should you? Where would you find someone to mate with?

hi

Metalleaf
11-10-2014, 06:50 PM
You wouldn't want JBo as your number 1 D...Calgary tried that.

BeLeafer
11-10-2014, 06:57 PM
Frankly, this whole concept of a #1 D is suspect. The thing a teams need is a solid top pairing, not some mythical stud to drag the rest along.

Metalleaf
11-10-2014, 07:01 PM
You need at least 4 capable D to be a contender week in week out...we're still working on that outside of Dion. Our corp is still very much in flux as we wait for Gards/Rielly to develop.

Habspatrol
11-10-2014, 07:18 PM
He should've been a forward. Guy has no clue with it comes to D and is so easily thrown off his game.

Subban? You joking?

Blueman
11-10-2014, 07:26 PM
I do like the fact that you picked a few guys with hot starts this year to say are comarable to dion, though.


12-13 to 13-14

Phaneuf (29): 24:07, 11gl/38ptpc ---- 5v5cl: 21.9oz%, 34.9dz%, 40.2cf%, -4.9rel, 7gl/20ptpc --- PK: 2:49, 104.4ca/60 --- PP: 3:07, 96.0cf/60, 3gl/17ptpc
Carlson (24): 23:54, 10gl/37ptpc ---- 5v5cl: 29.9oz%, 31.1dz%, 46.6cf%, -1.6rel, 7gl/20ptpc --- PK: 3:06, 118.3ca/60 --- PP: 2:39, 89.1cf/60, 3gl/17ptpc
Edler (28): 23:31, 11gl/33ptpc ------ 5v5cl: 32.7oz%, 30.1dz%, 53.7cf%, +1.8rel, 5gl/17ptpc --- PK: 2:00, 79.4ca/60 ---- PP: 3:04, 104.6cf/60, 7gl17ptpc
Stralman (28): 18:54, 3gl/13ptpc --- 5v5cl: 33.1oz%, 28.1dz%, 57.3cf%, +6.4rel, 3gl/13ptpc ---- PK: 1:21, 77.4ca/60 ---- PP: 0:34, 79.8cf/60, 0gl/0ptpc

So over the last two years, we see that Phaneuf is the only one of the four to be used as a #1 defenseman - a) used for top minutes in all situations, and b) used in heavy defensive matchups at even strength.

Carlson is the closest to this usage, as he played top minutes in all situations, but he was not used to matchup against other teams' top lines at even strength like Phaneuf.

On the PP, we see that Phaneuf, Carlson, and Edler are all pretty similar. They all get top PP minutes and all produce at the same rate.

On the PK, we see that only Phaneuf and Carlson get top PP minutes. Of the two, phaneuf seems to be significantly more effective in preventing corsi events against. Stralman and Edler play limited 2nd pair minutes but to their credit have been very effective in those minutes.

At even strength, we can see that Phaneuf faced a ridiculously heavy defensive usage compared to the others. Carlson had a fairly even usage, while Stralman and Edler had a very light usage. Despite his extreme lack of offensive zone starts, Phaneuf still managed to match or better the others' offensive production at even strength. His CF% was poor, but given the evidence we have this year it seems pretty clear that his extreme usage was the culprit.

Over the last 2 years, Phaneuf is clearly a step up (or more) from these other three defensemen.


14/15

Phaneuf (29): 23:20, 6gl/33ptpc --- 5v5cl: 28.8oz%, 34.6dz%, 50.7cf%, +1.7rel, 0gl/6ptpc --- PK: 2:51, 112.2ca/60 --- PP: 2:38, 106.8cf/60, 6gl/27ptpc
Carlson (24): 23:12, 12gl/64ptpc --- 5v5cl: 34.1oz%, 31.7dz%, 51.4cf%, -4.0rel, 6gl/41ptpc --- PK: 2:57, 112.9ca/60 --- PP: 2:03, 122.8cf/60, 6gl/23pt pace
Edler (28): 23:20, 15gl/37ptpc ----- 5v5cl: 29.3oz%, 28.7dz%, 53.9cf%, -4.6rel, 0gl/21ptpc --- PK: 2:41, 87.8ca/60 ---- PP: 3:01, 93.3cf/60, 15gl/15ptpc
Stralman (28): 22:27, 11gl/55ptpc - 5v5cl: 25.9oz%, 26.8dz%, 55.9cf%, +3.2rel, 6gl/44ptpc -- PK: 2:21, 103.6ca/60 ---- PP: 2:35, 79.8cf/60, 6gl/11ptpc

Carlson and Edler and are still seeing fairly easy matchups at even strength, but still have seen a big fall in corsi relative to their teammates. On the other hand, Carlson and ZStralman have seen massive jumps in ES production this year, though that's probably not sustainable. Stralman is also interesting here as he's faced much tougher competition and many more minutes than previous years yet is still showing very strong possession numbers. Edler seems to have jumped up a PK unit and is doing well there so far. Stralman's up a PK unit as well but not doing as well. He's also getting top PP minutes for the first time but not exactly lighting it up there.

Still, though, none of them face the usage that Dion does at even strength. And now that Dion's usage is just "very tough" instead of "ridiculously insane" we see that his corsi numbers have jumped right up, matching the others despite having much tougher usage than them still. Dion's also ripping it up on the PP though his offense has dried up at ES so far.

It's nice to see Dion getting somewhat reasonable usage this year, even if it's very tough usage, because it seems like we finally now are getting a decent read on what his possession numbers should look like.

Those guys look a bit closer to Dion this year, but still not as good.

This is my favourite post of this season so far. Great analysis!

Leafin'
11-10-2014, 07:34 PM
Frankly, this whole concept of a #1 D is suspect. The thing a teams need is a solid top pairing, not some mythical stud to drag the rest along.

100%

We need more good defenders. I know all the stats say Franson is a good partner for Phaneuf, but i'm not so sure. Give Phaneuf, another Phaneuf and we have a great defensive pairing.

How much stock should there be put into the LHD vs RHD argument? Should it be equal 3 for 3? or is it ok to have more of one over the other?

Phaneuf
Gardiner
Rielly
Percy
Finn

All LH defencemen.

MindzEye
11-10-2014, 07:42 PM
Frankly, this whole concept of a #1 D is suspect. The thing a teams need is a solid top pairing, not some mythical stud to drag the rest along.

I agree...sort of.

An elite 1D by themselves, will struggle when given difficult usage and no support. There was a lot of ink spilled in Nashville last season, asking what was wrong with Shea Weber, for example. He was used in the same way that we use Dion, but without Suter for the first time to insulate him and share that load.

What a legit #1D does though, is allows everyone else on that blueline to slot into comfortable roles where they can succeed. For example, without Dion we would have to lean much heavier on Jake Gardiner offensively, & Cody Franson defensively. Dion being there, and being able to play a legit #1 role in all 3 major usage situations, allows us to slot these guys in as complimentary pieces, playing them heavier when their quality of play warrants it, backing off on them when they're struggling...because you know you're going to get high quality minutes out of Dion regardless.

Habspatrol
11-10-2014, 07:49 PM
Frankly, this whole concept of a #1 D is suspect. The thing a teams need is a solid top pairing, not some mythical stud to drag the rest along.

Well yeah... but basically what you're saying is that it's better to have two good players than one. One stud dman is very good to have, pairing him with another really good dman is great.

BeLeafer
11-10-2014, 07:58 PM
Well yeah... but basically what you're saying is that it's better to have two good players than one. One stud dman is very good to have, pairing him with another really good dman is great.

What I'm saying is you don't need one of these studs to win the Cup/be a contender. You are at least as well off with a solid complement of guys who can share the load.

Thus, as per my post a while back, there's no need to upgrade Dion. We can live with him being a middle of the pack top pairing guy.

On another note, I have read several detailed analyses of this QoC thing being of marginal importance. So, not sure if that's a good yardstick to use to be tooting Dion's horn.

Habspatrol
11-10-2014, 07:59 PM
What I'm saying is you don't need one of these studs to win the Cup/be a contender. You are at least as well off with a solid complement of guys who can share the load.

Thus, as per my post a while back, there's no need to upgrade Dion. We can live with him being a middle of the pack top pairing guy.

On another note, I have read several detailed analyses of this QoC thing being of marginal importance. So, not sure if that's a good yardstick to use to be tooting Dion's horn.

Oh no doubt... you can win with "depth" over "stars and scrubs."

BeLeafer
11-10-2014, 08:01 PM
Okay, call me Captain Obvious ... but it did need to be said, I think.

LeafOfFaith
11-10-2014, 08:05 PM
Given that #1 and #2 dmen play on the same pairing and are generally out at the same time, does it really make a bit of difference whether Phaneuf is a #1 or a #2?

Habspatrol
11-10-2014, 08:05 PM
Okay, call me Captain Obvious ... but it did need to be said, I think.

I didn't mean to come off like that.

BeLeafer
11-10-2014, 08:06 PM
Given that #1 and #2 dmen play on the same pairing and are generally out at the same time, does it really make a bit of difference whether Phaneuf is a #1 or a #2?

Some coaches lean heavily on one guy. It does matter if you have such a coach.

BeLeafer
11-10-2014, 08:06 PM
I didn't mean to come off like that.

I took no offense ... I was chuckling as I typed it.

Habspatrol
11-10-2014, 08:12 PM
I took no offense ... I was chuckling as I typed it.

:cheers2:

gilmour93forever
11-11-2014, 12:59 AM
I was more laughing at the post, then Subban being on the list.

Subban is a great hockey player, but he is most likely not top5 on the all around defenseman list. Atleast not in my eyes.

I wasn't writing them in a rankings order, merely placing some of the top guys from each category in their respective distinctions as I see it.

Subban is a borderline guy, but I feel that he does enough of everything to warrant that top category like Keith, Phaneuf, McDonagh, Giordano, Doughty, Pietrangelo, and so on are all in the ALL AROUND #1 distinction as they aren't merely guys who have a polished offensive game.

zeke
11-12-2014, 01:39 PM
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/leafs-beat/meet-leo-komarov-the-leafs-international-man-of-mystery/article21549365/?cmpid=rss1&click=dlvr.it


Asked who his closest “comrades” in the league are, however, he doesn’t hesitate.

Looking around the Leafs dressing room after practice, Komarov says, simply, “They’re in here.”

:001_wub:

Leafin'
11-12-2014, 05:29 PM
any line he has been on has seen a spark of energy.

i think next year he'd be a perfect linemate for Nylander.

da_next_kid
11-13-2014, 01:19 AM
He has 10 points in 15 games already, Nonis did well for once. Looking like a great move.

LeafGm
11-13-2014, 07:05 AM
He has 10 points in 15 games already, Nonis did well for once. Looking like a great move.
11 points in 16 games now, which puts him at a 56 point pace.

I may have been enthusiastically behind the Komarov signing, but I wasn't expecting this kind of offence from him at all.

BeLeafer
11-13-2014, 07:54 AM
This pace or something close to it may well hold up also. It's not like he's benefiting from a bunch of lucky goals or something -- is shooting percentage is 3.6%!

His points have been coming from a lot of hard work and pretty damn good playmaking.

CRL
11-13-2014, 08:05 AM
I like his passing, very nice passes, complete opposite from Shitson