axlsalinger
Well-known member
Re: OT: Raps Game & TJ Ford
I'm pretty sure Nelson made the Nash comment about Jose Calderon.
OT: The Official Toronto Raptors Thread
- Thread starter hockeylover
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Fitzgerald#11
New member
Re: OT: Raps Game & TJ Ford
nah it was Ford
nah it was Ford
axlsalinger
Well-known member
Re: OT: Raps Game & TJ Ford
You're right. My bad.
You're right. My bad.
PlayerToBeNamedLater
Well-known member
Re: OT: Raps Game & TJ Ford
It would be really hard to choose between the two. They complement each other so well. Im glad I dont have to make that decision -- if it comes to that.
If I had to choose, I'd lean towards keeping Calderon. But a lot depends on the makeup of the team. The Raps would need to replace TJ's backcourt scoring production.
It would be really hard to choose between the two. They complement each other so well. Im glad I dont have to make that decision -- if it comes to that.
If I had to choose, I'd lean towards keeping Calderon. But a lot depends on the makeup of the team. The Raps would need to replace TJ's backcourt scoring production.
zeke
Well-known member
Re: OT: Raps Game & TJ Ford
I'd like to have some of what Don Nelson is smoking.
Nash's two biggest assets are things that are Ford's biggest weaknesses: a) a pass-first, take what they give you mentality, b) the ability to drain 3-pointers at will.
I'd like to have some of what Don Nelson is smoking.
Nash's two biggest assets are things that are Ford's biggest weaknesses: a) a pass-first, take what they give you mentality, b) the ability to drain 3-pointers at will.
da_next_kid
Well-known member
Re: OT: Raps Game & TJ Ford
Because a poster who thinks Andrea Bargnani is a first option in the league is more knowledgeable than a hall of fame former coach of steve nash. get real zeke.
Because a poster who thinks Andrea Bargnani is a first option in the league is more knowledgeable than a hall of fame former coach of steve nash. get real zeke.
zeke
Well-known member
Re: OT: Raps Game & TJ Ford
I guess I'd put it this way - Calderon and TJ as both so good that they should both be in our lineup.
And when I think of how they fit together on the court....if they're on together, given their styles of play, I'd still consider Calderon the PG, and TJ would become the SG. That's how I know which one is a better PG for the team, from my perspective.
That's why trading Ford for an SG that can score like him, but can actually defend the 2 spot and hit the 3 pointer, would make our team better, IMO.
I guess I'd put it this way - Calderon and TJ as both so good that they should both be in our lineup.
And when I think of how they fit together on the court....if they're on together, given their styles of play, I'd still consider Calderon the PG, and TJ would become the SG. That's how I know which one is a better PG for the team, from my perspective.
That's why trading Ford for an SG that can score like him, but can actually defend the 2 spot and hit the 3 pointer, would make our team better, IMO.
zeke
Well-known member
Re: OT: Raps Game & TJ Ford
you're right, if a coach lays an offhand compliment on a player comparing some kid to a two-time MVP, we should take it as hard and true permanent fact.
I apologize for daring to disagree with Don Nelson.
and if Bargnani doesn't turn into a a 1st option, then you'll be forced to disagree with the drafting knowledge of a two-time GM of the year. how dare you.
you're right, if a coach lays an offhand compliment on a player comparing some kid to a two-time MVP, we should take it as hard and true permanent fact.
I apologize for daring to disagree with Don Nelson.
and if Bargnani doesn't turn into a a 1st option, then you'll be forced to disagree with the drafting knowledge of a two-time GM of the year. how dare you.
zeke
Well-known member
Re: OT: Raps Game & TJ Ford
Basically, I see TJ as a very good, but ultimately flawed player. The kind of flaws that will hinder him from every being truly one of the best PGs in the league. the kind of flaws in the most important areas - a consistent jumper, and strong basketball mind and right PG attitude - the things which are Steve Nash's biggest strengths.
I like TJ a ton, but I think Calderon will end up being the more valuable player, despite having a less flashy game, and less impressive big numbers. Basically, I see Calderon as fundamentally sound in every area of the game, both physical and mental. I don't see any weaknesses in his game. Basically I see Calderon as better at every aspect of the game aside from one - and that's TJ's offensive explosiveness.....which also happens to be, IMO, the least important part of the game for a PG....in my opinion.
I think we have two excellent PGs to choose from, and we really can't go wrong.
Basically, I see TJ as a very good, but ultimately flawed player. The kind of flaws that will hinder him from every being truly one of the best PGs in the league. the kind of flaws in the most important areas - a consistent jumper, and strong basketball mind and right PG attitude - the things which are Steve Nash's biggest strengths.
I like TJ a ton, but I think Calderon will end up being the more valuable player, despite having a less flashy game, and less impressive big numbers. Basically, I see Calderon as fundamentally sound in every area of the game, both physical and mental. I don't see any weaknesses in his game. Basically I see Calderon as better at every aspect of the game aside from one - and that's TJ's offensive explosiveness.....which also happens to be, IMO, the least important part of the game for a PG....in my opinion.
I think we have two excellent PGs to choose from, and we really can't go wrong.
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da_next_kid
Well-known member
Re: OT: Raps Game & TJ Ford
Let's agree to disagree then because as good as Calderon is, I don't think he can ever be the player that TJ Ford is right now, let alone in the future. I just don't think Calderon can create for others off the dribble, even in the game last night, there wasn't one time that Calderon created for others in the paint, everyone is going under on screens on Calderon and are forcing him to take the jumper. And to his credit, he is shooting great percentages. If you watched Utah vs Phoenix last night, most of Nash's assists came off fast breaks and dribble penetrations. Both of them aren't even close to Nash in terms of decision making or passing ability, Nash is such a beast offensively.
Let's agree to disagree then because as good as Calderon is, I don't think he can ever be the player that TJ Ford is right now, let alone in the future. I just don't think Calderon can create for others off the dribble, even in the game last night, there wasn't one time that Calderon created for others in the paint, everyone is going under on screens on Calderon and are forcing him to take the jumper. And to his credit, he is shooting great percentages. If you watched Utah vs Phoenix last night, most of Nash's assists came off fast breaks and dribble penetrations. Both of them aren't even close to Nash in terms of decision making or passing ability, Nash is such a beast offensively.
axlsalinger
Well-known member
Re: OT: Raps Game & TJ Ford
Don't discount the fact that Ford is a better defender than Calderon as a PG.
His jumper has improved immensely since he came to Toronto, it's at the point now where it's an asset to his game. Nowhere near Nash, but who is? And Ford does have a good basketball IQ, he's learned to control his speed this year when he gets into the paint and there's nothing there. And like someone else mentioned, he's not a "chucker", he shoots more when he realizes the team needs a scorer on the floor. When other guys are making shots, he distributes often and well.
zeke
Well-known member
Re: OT: Raps Game & TJ Ford
the defense question is an interesing one.
They're both good defenders, but in different ways. Both work their asses off, and it's nice that with Ford out there, there's very few PGs in the league that can beat him off the dribble. I've got to give him credit on that.
BUT, in guarding the bigger PGs, and whenever he has to switch onto another bigger player, he is suddenly a liability defensively out there because he's just too damn small, and gets abused pretty easily.
Calderon, while not as good as TJ in guarding small PGs one on one, is still pretty decent.....plus, he's much better against bigger guards and on switches to bigger players. Hell, he was even able to body up on Nowitzki on switches more than once in last night's game.
They both bring some good defense to the table, though.
the defense question is an interesing one.
They're both good defenders, but in different ways. Both work their asses off, and it's nice that with Ford out there, there's very few PGs in the league that can beat him off the dribble. I've got to give him credit on that.
BUT, in guarding the bigger PGs, and whenever he has to switch onto another bigger player, he is suddenly a liability defensively out there because he's just too damn small, and gets abused pretty easily.
Calderon, while not as good as TJ in guarding small PGs one on one, is still pretty decent.....plus, he's much better against bigger guards and on switches to bigger players. Hell, he was even able to body up on Nowitzki on switches more than once in last night's game.
They both bring some good defense to the table, though.
da_next_kid
Well-known member
Re: OT: Raps Game & TJ Ford
Calderon and TJ are both Pylons on D, Calderon couldn't keep a log in front of him, this guy gets beat off the dribble so many times it's not even funny. TJ can only keep his man in front of him when he tries, we get putrid D from both of our PG's. TJ goes for the steals too much.
Calderon and TJ are both Pylons on D, Calderon couldn't keep a log in front of him, this guy gets beat off the dribble so many times it's not even funny. TJ can only keep his man in front of him when he tries, we get putrid D from both of our PG's. TJ goes for the steals too much.
leaffan2005
Well-known member
Re: OT: Raps Game & TJ Ford
The problem with T.J. is that when he starts to hit a couple of shots, he starts thinking that he's M.J. and his decision-making drops off tremendously. This hasn't happened as much this year, or at least we haven't noticed it as much because his jumper has improved and some of his questionable decisions are still ending up in the opponent's basket. Having said that, he really needs to learn to be a more patient, and a more savvy leader at the PG spot and stick to his TRUE strengths which is his speed off the dribble and his court-vision. If he does that, then a comparison to a young Steve Nash can be made because when Ford is on his game, there isn't a lot you can do to stop him.
Jose is a similar case, but his game is a lot more X's and O's, while his decision-making is that of a veteran. His jumper is also more consistent, especially beyond the arc where he is shooting 44%. I like Jose better long-term, because he is a true leader on the floor and he makes everybody around him better. He also does a better job of finding the open man, and is a better help defender which makes him useful with the type of defense that the Raptors like to play.
Either way, it's a luxury to have both on the roster and I don't think a controversy needs to exist for one to come out and be "the" guy. Both make up the best PG duo in the NBA, and are the #1 reason that the Raptors are back on the map. Just ask opposing teams' fans, and ask them what they think about us bringing Jose off the bench. The guy would start on at least 10-15 NBA teams, and is coming in when the other teams have their bench players on the floor.
The problem with T.J. is that when he starts to hit a couple of shots, he starts thinking that he's M.J. and his decision-making drops off tremendously. This hasn't happened as much this year, or at least we haven't noticed it as much because his jumper has improved and some of his questionable decisions are still ending up in the opponent's basket. Having said that, he really needs to learn to be a more patient, and a more savvy leader at the PG spot and stick to his TRUE strengths which is his speed off the dribble and his court-vision. If he does that, then a comparison to a young Steve Nash can be made because when Ford is on his game, there isn't a lot you can do to stop him.
Jose is a similar case, but his game is a lot more X's and O's, while his decision-making is that of a veteran. His jumper is also more consistent, especially beyond the arc where he is shooting 44%. I like Jose better long-term, because he is a true leader on the floor and he makes everybody around him better. He also does a better job of finding the open man, and is a better help defender which makes him useful with the type of defense that the Raptors like to play.
Either way, it's a luxury to have both on the roster and I don't think a controversy needs to exist for one to come out and be "the" guy. Both make up the best PG duo in the NBA, and are the #1 reason that the Raptors are back on the map. Just ask opposing teams' fans, and ask them what they think about us bringing Jose off the bench. The guy would start on at least 10-15 NBA teams, and is coming in when the other teams have their bench players on the floor.
mbow30
Spudmeister Supreme
Re: OT: Raps Game & TJ Ford
I think people also tend to lose sight of the fact that Ford came into the league very young (19) and lost a crucial year--his entire second season--of development.
He's only 24 years old. When Calderon was 24 he didn't even have a consistent 20 footer.
I think people also tend to lose sight of the fact that Ford came into the league very young (19) and lost a crucial year--his entire second season--of development.
He's only 24 years old. When Calderon was 24 he didn't even have a consistent 20 footer.
da_next_kid
Well-known member
Re: OT: Raps Game & TJ Ford
averaged 9 pts a game and 4 dimes and 4.6 assists
averaged 9 pts a game and 4 dimes and 4.6 assists
PlayerToBeNamedLater
Well-known member
Re: OT: Raps Game & TJ Ford
Nash is a freak of nature. His developmental curve is not the norm, it's the exception.
A lot of young PG's currently stack up favourably to Nash statistically at the same age. But it really doesn't mean all that much.
Ford nor Calderon will ever be as good as Nash, however, combined, they come pretty close.
Nash is a freak of nature. His developmental curve is not the norm, it's the exception.
A lot of young PG's currently stack up favourably to Nash statistically at the same age. But it really doesn't mean all that much.
Ford nor Calderon will ever be as good as Nash, however, combined, they come pretty close.
emo
New member
Re: OT: Raps Game & TJ Ford
Until the third year is complete (and not a quarter of the way through) it's too early to talk about growth. Right now, last season's full-season stats are still the best tool for comparison.
I'd honestly be happy with either PG, but if I had to choose, I'd take Ford due to his offense and ability to break down opposing Ds. The fact that Ford can score without really becoming a selfish, Starbury type, is a nice ability.
Until the third year is complete (and not a quarter of the way through) it's too early to talk about growth. Right now, last season's full-season stats are still the best tool for comparison.
I'd honestly be happy with either PG, but if I had to choose, I'd take Ford due to his offense and ability to break down opposing Ds. The fact that Ford can score without really becoming a selfish, Starbury type, is a nice ability.