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OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

mbow30 said:
First - again - shatkins has stated publicly that they’re looking for middle infield depth. They even signed a guy after dumping tulo. There was no opportunity cost in keeping him around. They need bodies without him.

Second, they could have released him during or after ST, after giving him a chance to perform, with the same effect as having released him in December.

Third, while everybody acknowledges tulo’s injury history and that the odds of him bouncing back to an elite level are slim to none, Him coming back as an above average short stop would not be “magical”. Plenty of guys in their early to mid 30s have bounced back from injury.
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Again, it's 50/50 whether he plays a game for the Yankees this year even. A guy with his injury history, missing an entire season, after having missed a good chunk of the year before while being plagued by injury, I wouldn't put his odds of being above-average as anything but marginal. Heck, I'd barely put his odds of being above replacement level as marginal.

Yes, they could have tried to keep him through ST if they thought there was a chance that they could pawn him off for a low-A reliever. But the problem there is that teams aren't really willing to deal for guys early in the year, especially when everyone knows you're trying to dump them. Nobody would deal for him after spring, best case is you play him and then deal him to a team who loses their starting SS early in the season. But again, you still have to play him.

And I'm still pretty sure that we'll start the season with Lourdes+Urena at SS. The guy they "signed", Sogard, is only to a minor league deal with ST invite. Martin accepted his role as a bench player in September, but not sure that Tulo would have been so quiet about it himself. Sometimes better to cut him loose, save the 500k, and not worry about whether you maybe get an extra A-ball arm later.

I've got plenty to be pissed off about how they dumped Osuna or Donaldson and didn't maximize returns (although buying low on Giles was smart). Tulo though they handled fine. Had they kept him around, people would be complaining about him being a progress stopper.
 
Its the same logic though. Its better to just cut ties with a player rather than try to maximize value. If know you aren't competing in 2019, and do not have any good young, SS prospects, what is the harm in holding on to Tulo and giving him an opportunity that could pay dividends. Rather than paying to give that opportunity to the Yankees.

Yes, Tulo is no longer an important player here. Yes, Tulo is likely done. Yes, odds are you aren't getting anything meaningful for him. But none of that changes the fact that it is yet another example of poor asset management. It's not an efficient move. Its not a low risk move. Its an expensive move with literally no upside.

No one is talking like this is the dumbest thing they have ever done. We are just discussing it. This is way better of a move than Donaldson, or Osuna, or EE, etc. But that doesn't make it any smarter. In terms of managing risk and efficiency, keeping Tulo was the right move. No risk, potential reward. Nothing was gained by releasing him.
 
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MyNameIsJonas said:
You people amaze me.

Tulo can't ****ing play
2019 doesn't matter
and there is youth to try out at the SS position.

Who gives a shit if he's a Yankee, Pirate or playing in outer space. The argument to keep him on the roster is so ****ing stupid.
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You should seriously give the concept of "shutting up" a solid think.
 
A terrible team didn't have an opportunity for Tulo. But a contender level club has an opportunity for Tulo.

That's all you really have to consider here. One team managed to maximize winning considers him of potential value, another team that doesn't appear to have a functioning management philosophy that prioritizes winning, doesn't.
 
UWHabs said:
Again, it's 50/50 whether he plays a game for the Yankees this year even. A guy with his injury history, missing an entire season, after having missed a good chunk of the year before while being plagued by injury, I wouldn't put his odds of being above-average as anything but marginal. Heck, I'd barely put his odds of being above replacement level as marginal.

Yes, they could have tried to keep him through ST if they thought there was a chance that they could pawn him off for a low-A reliever. But the problem there is that teams aren't really willing to deal for guys early in the year, especially when everyone knows you're trying to dump them. Nobody would deal for him after spring, best case is you play him and then deal him to a team who loses their starting SS early in the season. But again, you still have to play him.

And I'm still pretty sure that we'll start the season with Lourdes+Urena at SS. The guy they "signed", Sogard, is only to a minor league deal with ST invite. Martin accepted his role as a bench player in September, but not sure that Tulo would have been so quiet about it himself. Sometimes better to cut him loose, save the 500k, and not worry about whether you maybe get an extra A-ball arm later.

I've got plenty to be pissed off about how they dumped Osuna or Donaldson and didn't maximize returns (although buying low on Giles was smart). Tulo though they handled fine. Had they kept him around, people would be complaining about him being a progress stopper.
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Your “odds” are shots in the dark and besides the point. There was no risk - in dollars or opportunity cost - in giving him an opportunity.

And whether teams are willing to trade out if st is just conjecture. If he proves himself capable of playing
There’s no rush in trading him. If he doesn’t, you release him just like they did.

As for their plans for MI - whatever their hope is for sogard, they’re still trying to add middle infielders. That isn’t just for minor league depth.
 
Shatkins isn't hoping for anything more than depth. Their agenda is clear and always has been clear.

The want to manage the AL East Blue Jays like it's the AL Central Cleveland Indians (which they sucked at).

Shapiro has been in a front office for over 20 years. He is what he is.
 
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CaptainBolduke said:
The next player that likely gets bungled by Shitkins IMO:

Justin Smoak.
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Smoak has the flaw in that there's probably not a big market for him. I don't even know what teams need 1B anymore, but we really should be dealing him to whoever will give us something for him. I don't mind Rowdy getting the majority of 1B ABs, or even trying out Travis or even Teoscar there to see if they can train better as utility guys.
 
Oh I know the market isn't huge for Smoak, but whatever "value" he has probably only goes down from here.

I fully expect Shitkins to wait too long to trade him and get nothing in return - or just have him walk on his own.
 
guys like Justin Bour and CJ Cron were DFA'd and signed for 4M per year, both 30ish HR CI bats.

Smoak makes 8M.

His value is not nil but it's not huge, his style of player has been super de-valued over the past couple years. I think the play is to move him if a team faces an injury mid year and hope you can get a decent haul, or force something if Rowdy tears up AAA.

They have ****ed up the value of assets like Osuna and Donaldson, and might do the same on Stroman, but Smoak probably doesn't fit into the category.
 
UWHabs said:
Smoak has the flaw in that there's probably not a big market for him. I don't even know what teams need 1B anymore, but we really should be dealing him to whoever will give us something for him. I don't mind Rowdy getting the majority of 1B ABs, or even trying out Travis or even Teoscar there to see if they can train better as utility guys.
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Travis at 1B? I dont love his stick at 2B, let alone a corner.

Pretty sure he's the guy their talking about when they say the MI defence must improve or changes will be made. Travis just isn't a very good MLBer. Meh stick, bad D, no flexibility and bad baserunning.
 
MyNameIsJonas said:
Travis at 1B? I dont love his stick at 2B, let alone a corner.

Pretty sure he's the guy their talking about when they say the MI defence must improve or changes will be made. Travis just isn't a very good MLBer. Meh stick, bad D, no flexibility and bad baserunning.
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Yeah, that's why maybe training him at 1B or LF and he could have value as a super-utility guy. If he can find whatever juice he was taking those first few years and bring the bat back above average, then he'll play. Before last year, his defense at 2B was fine. Even with his horrible year last year, in the equivalent of 2 full seasons, he's been worth 4.8-6.5 WAR (fWAR vs bWAR). With Bichette and maybe Biggio coming up starting next year (and maybe Lourdes shifting back to 2B if he can't cut it at SS), he'll need some position flexibility. I don't think he's the 1B of the future, but he can't stick around as a 2B-only.
 
UWHabs said:
Yeah, that's why maybe training him at 1B or LF and he could have value as a super-utility guy. If he can find whatever juice he was taking those first few years and bring the bat back above average, then he'll play. Before last year, his defense at 2B was fine. Even with his horrible year last year, in the equivalent of 2 full seasons, he's been worth 4.8-6.5 WAR (fWAR vs bWAR). With Bichette and maybe Biggio coming up starting next year (and maybe Lourdes shifting back to 2B if he can't cut it at SS), he'll need some position flexibility. I don't think he's the 1B of the future, but he can't stick around as a 2B-only.
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I'd just punt him and be done with it, i dont see him as a valuable MLBer.
 
I think holding onto Travis for this upcoming season is the right play. His bat has shown to be above average for 2B previously. If he starts the year off hot we might be able to move him for something decent instead of nothing. Its not like he's making money or blocking any of the top prospects currently. At 28 years old to start the season he isn't exactly ancient.

As for Tulo...who gives a shit where he plays? Would anyone care if it was the Padres that signed him? Of course he's going to get healthy and rake for the yankees. He pretty obviously had no intention of sticking around for a rebuild and made that clear with his earlier comments.

Being the middle of a rebuild sucks. Any way you look at it the franchise was heading this way with its piss poor drafting/development from the last decade/.
 
Leafin' said:
I think holding onto Travis for this upcoming season is the right play. His bat has shown to be above average for 2B previously. If he starts the year off hot we might be able to move him for something decent instead of nothing. Its not like he's making money or blocking any of the top prospects currently. At 28 years old to start the season he isn't exactly ancient.

As for Tulo...who gives a shit where he plays? Would anyone care if it was the Padres that signed him? Of course he's going to get healthy and rake for the yankees. He pretty obviously had no intention of sticking around for a rebuild and made that clear with his earlier comments.

Being the middle of a rebuild sucks. Any way you look at it the franchise was heading this way with its piss poor drafting/development from the last decade/.
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Yeah, this is totally fair, i just have an irrational disliking of him, probably because most fans think he's better than he is.

2B also isn't the wasteland it used to be offensively, so really his offense is just okay, and the rest of his game sucks.
 
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