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OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

MyNameIsJonas said:
Yeah cause no MLB executive could see the decline in play and health coming there.
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Which part of my thesis requires us to get full value for Russell Martin? You honestly think that top notch leader bean Russell Martin would have had a hard time finding suitors as a salary dump after the 2016 season? Eat a couple of million, take an A ball lottery ticket or two and it would have been done. Far worse contracts have been moved over the past few seasons. ****, 36 yr old Cano (coming off of an injured, 2.9 WAR season) just got traded and he's signed for 5 more years. Who hasn't traded for Matt Kemp since he signed his albatross?
 
MindzEye said:
Which part of my thesis requires us to get full value for Russell Martin? You honestly think that top notch leader bean Russell Martin would have had a hard time finding suitors as a salary dump after the 2016 season? Eat a couple of million, take an A ball lottery ticket or two and it would have been done. Far worse contracts have been moved over the past few seasons. ****, 36 yr old Cano (coming off of an injured, 2.9 WAR season) just got traded and he's signed for 5 more years. Who hasn't traded for Matt Kemp since he signed his albatross?
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The problem with that is you still need to go and fetch a catcher after you deal him. So yeah, obviously if we went to tear it down a couple years ago, we should have dealt Martin back then. I don't think anyone would go against that. But if you wanted to actually still try to make the playoffs, then dealing him wouldn't have made sense.

And the problem the last 2 years have been that upper management has wanted to try to make the playoffs without actually investing into the team.
 
MindzEye said:
Which part of my thesis requires us to get full value for Russell Martin? You honestly think that top notch leader bean Russell Martin would have had a hard time finding suitors as a salary dump after the 2016 season? Eat a couple of million, take an A ball lottery ticket or two and it would have been done. Far worse contracts have been moved over the past few seasons. ****, 36 yr old Cano (coming off of an injured, 2.9 WAR season) just got traded and he's signed for 5 more years. Who hasn't traded for Matt Kemp since he signed his albatross?
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The problem with that is you still need to go and fetch a catcher after you deal him. So yeah, obviously if we went to tear it down a couple years ago, we should have dealt Martin back then. I don't think anyone would go against that. But if you wanted to actually still try to make the playoffs, then dealing him wouldn't have made sense.

And the problem the last 2 years have been that upper management has wanted to try to make the playoffs without actually investing into the team.
 
UWHabs said:
The problem with that is you still need to go and fetch a catcher after you deal him. So yeah, obviously if we went to tear it down a couple years ago, we should have dealt Martin back then. I don't think anyone would go against that. But if you wanted to actually still try to make the playoffs, then dealing him wouldn't have made sense.

And the problem the last 2 years have been that upper management has wanted to try to make the playoffs without actually investing into the team.
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The problem with keeping Martin was always the upside limitation on that chunk of salary. If Russ is going to be worth 2 war, and you're stuck spending ~160 million, you can't just shrug your shoulders and say that money is going to provide a max of 2 WAR and there's nothing you can do about it. You do your best to dump the contract, try to drag 1 WAR kicking and screaming out of the position for dirt cheap and use the money to roll the dice on other positions of need where buying wins might be easier than at C. You can have a blackhole or two in your lineup and still put together an awesome lineup so find a cheap defensive catcher, run with it and pray. Shit, if you spend nothing and get a neutral return (a replacement level player) you're still okay if you spend that money well.
 
MindzEye said:
Which part of my thesis requires us to get full value for Russell Martin? You honestly think that top notch leader bean Russell Martin would have had a hard time finding suitors as a salary dump after the 2016 season? Eat a couple of million, take an A ball lottery ticket or two and it would have been done. Far worse contracts have been moved over the past few seasons. ****, 36 yr old Cano (coming off of an injured, 2.9 WAR season) just got traded and he's signed for 5 more years. Who hasn't traded for Matt Kemp since he signed his albatross?
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My issue is the likihood of Rogers paying the ticket for him to go away, then raising payroll back to 160 to compete as you wish.
 
MindzEye said:
Which part of my thesis requires us to get full value for Russell Martin? You honestly think that top notch leader bean Russell Martin would have had a hard time finding suitors as a salary dump after the 2016 season? Eat a couple of million, take an A ball lottery ticket or two and it would have been done. Far worse contracts have been moved over the past few seasons. ****, 36 yr old Cano (coming off of an injured, 2.9 WAR season) just got traded and he's signed for 5 more years. Who hasn't traded for Matt Kemp since he signed his albatross?
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My issue is the likihood of Rogers paying the ticket for him to go away, then raising payroll back to 160 to compete as you wish.
 
MyNameIsJonas said:
My issue is the likihood of Rogers paying the ticket for him to go away, then raising payroll back to 160 to compete as you wish.
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The ticket for him to "go away" at the time, based on what we've seen in similar deals, would have been about 5 million per. Would you rather have 155 and no Russ or 140 and Russ in 2017?
 
MindzEye said:
The ticket for him to "go away" at the time, based on what we've seen in similar deals, would have been about 5 million per. Would you rather have 155 and no Russ or 140 and Russ in 2017?
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I'm not sure you and I will ever be able to have the relationship i want us to have...
 
The 2019 Blue Jays team payroll is now projected to go down by nearly 60 million compared to 2018.

First extreme payroll deduction in approx. 15 years. One year removed from the leading the AL in attendance.

"If they come, we will spend..."

A big LOL at anyone that supports Mark Shapiro.

And all of this was easily predicted the monent he arrived. 2015 and 2016 annoyed him.
 
MindzEye said:
Well, at least Shatkins is in good company with 2/3rds of the league.

Is there a quicker way to lose a fanbase (and the revenue they generate) than to not even bother trying to win?
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It's has to be depressing for baseball fans that just a handful of teams are interested in Harper or Machado -- two of the most attractive FA in the history of MLB
 
I wouldn't mind cost-cutting or any kind of rebuild if they were focused on bringing high-end potential talent into the organization. I think most fans could buy into it as well. But this management team's primary focus seems to be lowering downside risk. Secondary focus is perhaps stockpiling low-upside pitchers who might turn into serviceable middle relievers if everything breaks right.

Martin is probably going to be the Dodgers starting C. Tulo is going to be the Yankees starting SS. Two of the most important positions on two of the best teams in baseball, the Jays are paying essentially their entire salaries and got nothing in return. Why even make those transactions? So that guys like Brandon Drury and Luke Maile can be guaranteed roster spots? To what end? So that they can be dealt for more over-aged low-upside RP "prospects" in a year or two?

Donaldson dealt in August for a nothing minor leaguer when they could have had a draft pick if they had even the slightest risk tolerance. Diaz, an unspectacular but useful player, dealt for Houston's waiver-wire fodder, shortly before they release the only other plausible MLB SS in the organization. Why? Just bafflingly bad asset management.
 
manny said:
I wouldn't mind cost-cutting or any kind of rebuild if they were focused on bringing high-end potential talent into the organization. I think most fans could buy into it as well. But this management team's primary focus seems to be lowering downside risk. Secondary focus is perhaps stockpiling low-upside pitchers who might turn into serviceable middle relievers if everything breaks right.

Martin is probably going to be the Dodgers starting C. Tulo is going to be the Yankees starting SS. Two of the most important positions on two of the best teams in baseball, the Jays are paying essentially their entire salaries and got nothing in return. Why even make those transactions? So that guys like Brandon Drury and Luke Maile can be guaranteed roster spots? To what end? So that they can be dealt for more over-aged low-upside RP "prospects" in a year or two?

Donaldson dealt in August for a nothing minor leaguer when they could have had a draft pick if they had even the slightest risk tolerance. Diaz, an unspectacular but useful player, dealt for Houston's waiver-wire fodder, shortly before they release the only other plausible MLB SS in the organization. Why? Just bafflingly bad asset management.
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Well, to be fair, Donaldson signed for less than 50M, so the Jays wouldn't even have received a draft pick for him. So in effect they made the right decision in the end for him to actually get something back for him. Although obviously they should have dealt him a year or two ago for a much better return. And Tulo is still only 50/50 to actually make it out of spring training with the Yankees - they just signed another infielder, so I doubt they're really counting on him for much.

As for the money, I don't mind them cutting payroll now IF they actually increase it again in a couple years when they want to compete. There's really no point to spending money now unless if it's to get something for the future. Problem is obviously none of us trust that that's actually going to happen.
 
UWHabs said:
Well, to be fair, Donaldson signed for less than 50M, so the Jays wouldn't even have received a draft pick for him. So in effect they made the right decision in the end for him to actually get something back for him. Although obviously they should have dealt him a year or two ago for a much better return. And Tulo is still only 50/50 to actually make it out of spring training with the Yankees - they just signed another infielder, so I doubt they're really counting on him for much.

As for the money, I don't mind them cutting payroll now IF they actually increase it again in a couple years when they want to compete. There's really no point to spending money now unless if it's to get something for the future. Problem is obviously none of us trust that that's actually going to happen.
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The 50M figure isn't relevant in this case. It only applies to revenue sharing teams and the only impact is whether the comp pick is after the first round or after the second round. If the Jays had kept Donaldson and made a qualifying offer, they would have received a pick, regardless of how much he signed for. They were worried about the downside risk because he might have taken it and then you'd have to deal with having Josh Donaldson on the roster to start the season. Or else they genuinely preferred "impact player" Julian Merryweather, who very well may have been available on the waiver wire later in the offseason. I'm not sure which scenario is more troubling as a fan.

Not a fun coincidence that the same GM the Jays pushed out to bring in these schlubs is the guy taking a chance on Josh (for about 5million more than the Jays would have had to pay him.)
 
UWHabs said:
Well, to be fair, Donaldson signed for less than 50M, so the Jays wouldn't even have received a draft pick for him. So in effect they made the right decision in the end for him to actually get something back for him. Although obviously they should have dealt him a year or two ago for a much better return. And Tulo is still only 50/50 to actually make it out of spring training with the Yankees - they just signed another infielder, so I doubt they're really counting on him for much.

As for the money, I don't mind them cutting payroll now IF they actually increase it again in a couple years when they want to compete. There's really no point to spending money now unless if it's to get something for the future. Problem is obviously none of us trust that that's actually going to happen.
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But there is a point to spending money now. Vladdy's window has begun and we have tons of available cash NOW. This is the perfect time to make a huge splash.

Getting players to play with Vaddy should be the priority right now. Allowing his window to get smaller on purpose is annoying as ****.
 
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CaptainBolduke said:
But there is a point to spending money now. Vladdy's window has begun and we have tons of available cash NOW. This is the perfect time to make a huge splash.

Getting players to play with Vaddy should be the priority right now. Allowing his window to get smaller on purpose is annoying as ****.
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if past behaviour is any indication, we know that shatkins' instinct when faced with a competitive window is to simply sit on their hands and wait for it to shut so they can rebuild.
 
Well you see, spending money on other good players would be risky without knowing for certain what they have in Vladdy and it would be prudent to have at least 3-4 years worth of Vladdy results to ensure that he's the type of player that you can build around.

So we can expect them to sign their next version of Kendrys Morales to help Vladdy in 2022-23 or so.
 
I know this is silly talk, but Bryce Harper is such a good for the Jays.

1) The Jays have tons of cash right now and for the future.
2) Harper's remaining prime years fit perfectly with Vladdy.
3) The Jays have shit OF prospects.


Waiting for others to magically appear during Vladdy's window is super dangerous.
 
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