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OT: American Politics

Habsy said:
Yep.

It's amazing that you can't grasp the fact that Trump is so bad that should a Dem candidate lose to him it means that candidate is perceived as being worse. Clinton had historic disapproval numbers so losing PA, MI and WI was somewhat explainable. Now? Losing any of those three let alone all is because the Dems did not send the right message. I could be wrong but it seems to me that you fail to grasp what works on the coasts simply does not in those states. You can blame "dumb Americans" all you want but without a viable (to them at least) choice they will either stay home or vote Trump again. Pelosi knows this and it is why she is trying to curb the desire of the more radical left to impeach Trump as it would likely play excellent on the coasts but backfire in states Clinton lost.

Anecdotal I know but I am already seeing a slew of Trump 2020 bumper stickers down here. They are everywhere lately. These people the Dems will never get however the ones that don't identify with either party are attainable with the right message and candidate so you have to ask yourself if it is worth pushing a radical (for the States anyway) agenda if it means Trump will win again. What is the lesser of the evils? Trump part 2 or a more centrist candidate that says the right things?
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Conservatives never could accept responsibility for their own actions.
 
Is that even true though. The boring centrist Dem nominees never win.

Its always the charismatic "radicals". Thats who actually gets people out to vote.

When people aren't inspired to show up to the polls the Dems lose.
 
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There's a difference between being bad and being bad at a popularity contest. Habsy somehow still hasn't figured that out. That astonishes me.
 
MindzEye said:
Not all of the ones you think blow...and none are remotely as bad Trump.

Warren and Sanders for instance, who you actively hate, would be fantastic for the country.
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Honest question, do you believe people that disagree with you are just plain wrong or dumb? The issue you will run into is a difference of opinion. While you (and zeke) believe Warren or Sanders are good for the country there are plenty of others that disagree. Are they to be dismissed out of hand because they disagree?
 
Preston said:
There's a difference between being bad and being bad at a popularity contest. Habsy somehow still hasn't figured that out. That astonishes me.
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You think you know me but you don’t. I don’t react well to people that think their line of thinking is the only correct line of thinking.

That said, I agree trump is a ****ing tire fire.
 
Habsy said:
Honest question, do you believe people that disagree with you are just plain wrong or dumb? The issue you will run into is a difference of opinion. While you (and zeke) believe Warren or Sanders are good for the country there are plenty of others that disagree. Are they to be dismissed out of hand because they disagree?
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I hate this nonsense argument, I really do. There's objectively good policy, and objectively bad policy and if we're learned anything over the last 30+ years of US political history it's that policy actually matters, a lot. If you have a poor opinion about a politician because they support objectively good policy, you're probably wrong to dislike them. If you support politicians with objectively bad ideas/policy, you're wrong for doing so.

So to answer your question, they're not to be dismissed out of hand because I "disagree" with them. They're to be dismissed out of hand because the politicians they support push shit, harmful policy. Warren and Sanders largely support rational, objectively good policy.
 
I don’t react well to people that think their line of thinking is the only correct line of thinking.
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And I don't react well to people who refuse to live in reality where the rest of us are forced to live. I'm really, really ****ing sick of Unicornism. **** faith based policy, and that's not limited to religious faith.
 
reality-bites-pizza.png
 
leafman101 said:
Is that even true though. The boring centrist Dem nominees never win.

Its always the charismatic "radicals". Thats who actually gets people out to vote.

When people aren't inspired to show up to the polls the Dems lose.
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You know who's boring?

Biden.

You know who will probably win the democrat nomination?

Biden.

Dems never learn.
 
MindzEye said:
I hate this nonsense argument, I really do. There's objectively good policy, and objectively bad policy and if we're learned anything over the last 30+ years of US political history it's that policy actually matters, a lot. If you have a poor opinion about a politician because they support objectively good policy, you're probably wrong to dislike them. If you support politicians with objectively bad ideas/policy, you're wrong for doing so.

So to answer your question, they're not to be dismissed out of hand because I "disagree" with them. They're to be dismissed out of hand because the politicians they support push shit, harmful policy. Warren and Sanders largely support rational, objectively good policy.
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So what do you do when they don’t see this? I actually agree with you however the older I get the less I feel that they will see another point of view. I do believe you have the capacity to understand that there are differing points of view but what do you do with people that won’t even see the other point of view? This applies to both sides btw, what do you do? They too have votes.
 
MindzEye said:
And I don't react well to people who refuse to live in reality where the rest of us are forced to live. I'm really, really ****ing sick of Unicornism. **** faith based policy, and that's not limited to religious faith.
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You and me both and we’re hitting this from different ends so again, what do you do? I’m seriously at a loss here.
 
Altair said:
You know who's boring?

Biden.

You know who will probably win the democrat nomination?

Biden.

Dems never learn.
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The only hope is that voter turnout is driven more by an anti-Trump vibe than a pro-Biden one. People may be motivated by reversing the 4 years of shit Trump has overseen and Biden may look like a messiah in comparison. As I have mentioned multiple times, I won't hold my breath. America deserves Trump at this point.
 
They’re sheltering Biden to the point that I’m questioning whether he can beat Trump at all. I’m not so sure anymore.
 
leaffan2005 said:
The only hope is that voter turnout is driven more by an anti-Trump vibe than a pro-Biden one. People may be motivated by reversing the 4 years of shit Trump has overseen and Biden may look like a messiah in comparison. As I have mentioned multiple times, I won't hold my breath. America deserves Trump at this point.
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The same people who didn't vote for Hillary are going to stay home for Biden.

Biden is the safe establishment bet and the Dems will have proven they have learned nothing at all from 2016 if they pick him.

The only hope biden has is that republicans sick of trump stay home.

Meanwhile sanders has a generation of young people looking for solutions to the problems the boomers have dumped on them ready to vote for him, but no.
 
Habsy said:
So what do you do when they don’t see this? I actually agree with you however the older I get the less I feel that they will see another point of view. I do believe you have the capacity to understand that there are differing points of view but what do you do with people that won’t even see the other point of view? This applies to both sides btw, what do you do? They too have votes.
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On a micro, individual level? Combat bad ideas. Don't allow stupidity to perpetuate in your presence.

On a macro level? Never support a politician that isn't for improving public education and other obvious fact based policies. Support them with your time and money if necessary.
 
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