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The ****ing Season Thread 2018-19

zeke said:
not the same as JVR though.

JVR was a sheltered 3rd liner. Jake is playing like a quality top pair dman.

and the thing is Jake might be cheaper too.
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Gardiner is no top pair dman. Let alone a quality one. And I really doubt he'll be cheaper.
 
18th in ES toi/gm
62nd in ES qoc/gm
15th in ES pts
healthily positive cf%/CFrel and xgf%/xgfrel and best in our top 4 by a healthy margin.

even 11th in good old plus/minus.
 
zeke said:
18th in ES toi/gm
62nd in ES qoc/gm
15th in ES pts
healthily positive cf%/CFrel and xgf%/xgfrel and best in our top 4 by a healthy margin.

even 11th in good old plus/minus.
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Okay great, how much would you pay him and for how long?
 
IMO Jake is worth more to teams who don't have a number 1 D who kinda have to shrug and pay him as a 1 even if they dont want to, then a team like the Leafs who have Reilly and a pair of kid Swedes
 
zeke said:
18th in ES toi/gm
62nd in ES qoc/gm
15th in ES pts
healthily positive cf%/CFrel and xgf%/xgfrel and best in our top 4 by a healthy margin.

even 11th in good old plus/minus.
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yes. he is played a lot against good competition. Past Rielly and Gardiner it drops off a cliff so we don't exactly have a lot of options there. Dermott will be good one day but he's still learning right now. still a ton of turnovers there. the others are what they are. As for rating well in our top 4, I would hope so...since it also contains Zaitsev and Hainsey, who have no business being there on a good team.

how do you rate Gardiner as a quality top pair defenceman and yet still think he's getting less money than JVR?? It's nonsense.

he is not a bad player. he's a good player. but you have to manage your team properly and try not to pay for declining years. aren't you bitching about Tavares for this very reason?? do you really want to have 7 million + tied up in Gardiner when you have to pay Dermott Sandin and Liljegren? also keep in mind after this season Rielly has 3 years left on his bargain deal. what do you think his next contract is going to look like?
 
Jonas lose some weight, gain some confidence. And do not keystroke here. No one cares about what you post. We love this team, Its tough to go through what we go through.

You don't love the Leafs. So just **** off.

And Habsy I get this guys keystrokes, but he is a hawks fan and a goof. . Nuff said

And not to ass slurp but the habs look great

I said early on, the habs looked good

I love the Habs..... Richard, Beliveau, Lemaire, Cournoyer... how can you not love that?

And Lafleur, Robinson, Savard, Lapointe.... ?



Dryden. I mean those teams those Hab teams.... Phew.... They were so good. It was amazing to watch. Amazing.

I had to watch them. I had to. No cable back then. I ahd to watch the best shit in north america.
 
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Iknowenuff said:
Jonas lose some weight, gain some confidence. And do not keystroke here. No one cares about what you post. We love this team, Its tough to go through what we go through.

You don't love the Leafs. So just **** off.

And Habsy I get this guys keystrokes, but he is a hawks fan and a goof. . Nuff said

And not to ass slurp but the habs look great

I said early on, the habs looked good

I love the Habs..... Richard, Beliveau, Lemaire, Cournoyer... how can you not love that?

And Lafleur, Robinson, Savard, Lapointe.... ?



Dryden. I mean those teams those Hab teams.... Phew.... They were so good. It was amazing to watch. Amazing.

I had to watch them. I had to. No cable back then. I ahd to watch the best shit in north america.
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Loving a team ( which you vowed not to watch or talk about roughly 2 days ago) doesn't entitle you to be a batshit crazy loon.

Saying the Leafs might miss the playoffs ( amongst a lot of other nonsense) makes you a batshit crazy loon.

You're like a talking media head minus structure.
 
Volcanologist said:
how do you rate Gardiner as a quality top pair defenceman and yet still think he's getting less money than JVR?? It's nonsense.
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pointing out that some players are underrated and others are overrated is nonsense?

not in the least.

what is nonsense is you comparing JVR and Jake. what's interesting though is that it's a brand of nonsense that is shared by many, which might affect their prices.
 
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So, are you arguing in favour of re-signing Jake then, zeke?

Because while he's obviously a better and more valuable player than JVR was to this team, I do think their situations are comparable in a few ways.

They're both very useful players in their late 20's that, in a non-salary-cap world, you'd be happy to pay and keep if you're a rich contending team like the Leafs. They're both guys who the organization has cheap young replacements waiting in the wings for them to leave (Kapanen/Johnsson for JVR, Dermott/Sandin/Liljegren for Gardiner).

And in the end, I think they're both guys that this Leaf team can in no way afford to retain on a rich, long-term deal that stretches well into their 30's.
 
MindzEye said:
It really is the hardest part about managing in the cap era. You simply have to choose the right risks to take with young players, and lock them up for as much of their mid and late 20's as you can for the right price, and avoid almost all risk with long term contracts for non elite players in their late 20's/early 30's. So as good as the Kadri's, and Gardiner's of the world are, if you're put into a position where you absolutely need to sign them into their mid 30's, you've ****ed up and you're really likely to regret it.

If you can't get your good young kids signed to long term team friendly deals (Rielly, and Kadri for example), you have to play the game with them of exploiting their RFA years and then look to move them when they're getting close to UFA. Depth guys in the Brown and Hyman vein are fine for a few years when they're cheap, but as soon as they get expensive (for them, I'd suggest anything more than they currently make is expensive) they have to go to. The single most important organizational skillset in the cap era is draft and develop. If you aren't churning out players of every stripe, on a regular basis, you're going to be forced into choosing between letting your team get worse, or making a bad cap decision and most managers are going to make a long term bad decision out of short term self interest when push comes to shove.
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Great post ME. You have to make the tough hockey decisions in this league . Teams take the easy way out cause GM`s think , " it wont be my problem " down the road.

Teams are great at kicking the can down the road.
 
Gardiner is a much tougher decision than JVR. JVR was a third line PP specialist. Gardiner is one of the best players on the team. JVR you can live without, but the problem with Gardiner is you absolutely want to keep him. But its the off ice factors that may make it a poor decision.
 
They just can't go into next season without replacing Gardiner. It's not easy to find someone with a reasonable enough salary to do so.

Someone like a muzzin would have to be acquired, and even then you only have him for one year. At that point you hope Sandin/Dermott can provide the top four minutes in the years following that.

But they can't go into next year losing Jake on a d corps that isn't all that hot as it is.
 
They have internal replacements, even if it means a drop off in the short term. Dermott has earned a promotion from the third pair. Sandin and Liljegren are on the immediate radar. Thats how teams have to develop under the cap. You need to be able to fill in holes through your development system. And fortunately for the Leafs they have a handful of very good young dmen.

Thats what they did with JVR. They had Kappy and Johnsson, who weren't expected to be 30 goal scorers and replace everything JVR brought, but they are good, young and affordable.

The Leafs are in a better position to handle Gardiner than a lot of organizations would be.
 
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the thing for me with Jake is I want to keep him, but I don't want to do so for more than 2-3 years when he can likely be replaced internally. but good luck getting him to sign a short-term contract...
 
leafman101 said:
They have internal replacements, even if it means a drop off in the short term. Dermott has earned a promotion from the third pair. Sandin and Liljegren are on the immediate radar. Thats how teams have to develop under the cap. You need to be able to fill in holes through your development system. And fortunately for the Leafs they have a handful of very good young dmen.

Thats what they did with JVR. They had Kappy and Johnsson, who weren't expected to be 30 goal scorers and replace everything JVR brought, but they are good, young and affordable.

The Leafs are in a better position to handle Gardiner than a lot of organizations would be.
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Kapanen, johnsson etc are older and far more ready than a Sandin. Plus jvr was a third liner, Gardiner is a top tier d.

Lilly should be ready next year and I'd hope ready for a top four role in two years but for next season it's a downgrade any way you look at it.


I'm on #teammuzzin for next year as a nice stop gap.
 
Dermott will be 23 with 120+ NHL games under his belt though. Thats the guy that would move up to the second pair. in Gardiner's spot. Frankley, I'm not even sure he should be on the 3rd pair now.

Sandin/Lilly replace Dermott on the bottom pair.

The bigger concern IMO is still upgrading Hainsey/Zaitsev. I am not too concerned about giving Dermott 20 minutes a game against 2nd line comp.
 
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leafman101 said:
Dermott will be 23 with 120+ NHL games under his belt though. Thats the guy that would move up to the second pair. in Gardiner's spot. Frankley, I'm not even sure he should be on the 3rd pair now.

Sandin/Lilly replace Dermott.

The bigger concern IMO is still upgrading Hainsey/Zaitsev. I am not too concerned about giving Dermott 20 minutes a game against 2nd line comp.
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Still though, you're losing a top tier d and replacing him with dermott, who is more than likely just a quality second pair guy. It's a downgrade. I'm looking for solutions to upgrade. #teammuzzin
 
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